Sebastián Bortnik: The conversation we're not having about digital child abuse (w/ subtitles) | TED

Translator: Romina Pol Reviewer: Sebastian Betti

Prevodilac: Jelena Lela Lektor: Ivana Krivokuća

[This talk contains graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.]

[Ovaj snimak sadrži grafički sadržaj. Ne preporučuje se osetljivim osobama.]

This is Nina Rodríguez's Facebook profile.

Ovo je Fejsbuk Nine Rodriges.

This person had three different profiles

Imala je tri različita profila

and 890 kids between 8 and 13 years old among her friends list.

i 890 dečaka od 8 do 13 godina u svojim kontaktima.

These are excerpts of a chat with one of those kids.

Ovo su delovi jednog razgovora sa jednim od tih dečaka.

This is an exact copy of the chat.

Konverzacija je tekstualna

It's part of the case file.

i nalazi se u dosijeu.

This kid started sending private photos

Ovaj dečak je počeo da joj šalje intimne fotografije,

until his family realized what was going on.

dok njegova porodica nije saznala.

The police report and subsequent investigation lead them to a house.

Prijava i kasnija istraga odveli su ih do jedne adrese.

This was the girl's bedroom.

Ovo je bila devojčicina soba.

Nina Rodríguez was actually a 24-year-old man

Nina Rodriges je zapravo bio muškarac od 24 godine,

that used to do this with lots of kids.

koji je ovo radio sa mnogo maloletnika.

Micaela Ortega was 12 years old

Mikaela Ortega je imala 12 godina

when she went to meet her new Facebook friend,

kada je otišla da se nađe sa novom prijateljicom sa Fejsbuka,

also 12.

istog uzrasta.

"Rochi de River," was her name.

Predstavljala se kao Roći de River.

She actually met Jonathan Luna, who was 26 years old.

U stvarnosti se našla sa Džonatanom Lunom, od 26 godina,

When they finally caught him,

koji je, kad su ga konačno uhvatili, priznao da ju je ubio,

he confessed that he killed the girl because she refused to have sex with him.

jer devojčica nije htela da ima seksualne odnose.

He had four Facebook profiles

Imao je četiri profila na Fejsbuku

and 1,700 women on his contact list;

i 1 700 žena u svojim kontaktima.

90 percent of them were under 13 years old.

Devedeset posto njih bile su mlađe od 13 godina.

These are two different cases of "grooming":

Ovo su dve različite vrste „gruminga“:

an adult contacts a kid through the internet,

odrasla osoba uspostavi kontakt sa maloletnikom preko interneta,

and through manipulation or lying, leads that kid into sexual territory --

i pomoću manipulacije ili prevare,

navodi ih na teritoriju seksa,

from talking about sex

od pričanja o seksu do deljenja intimnih fotografija,

to sharing private photos,

recording the kid using a webcam

snimanja preko veb kamere,

or arranging an in-person meeting.

ili ugovaranja susreta uživo.

This is grooming.

To je gruming.

This is happening, and it's on the rise.

Dešava se i širi se.

The question is: What are we going to do?

Postavlja se pitanje: „Šta ćemo da uradimo?“

Because, in the meantime, kids are alone.

jer, u međuvremenu, deca su sama.

They finish dinner, go to their rooms,

Završili su sa večerom, idu u svoju sobu,

close the door,

zatvaraju vrata,

get on their computer, their cell phones,

uzimaju računar, mobilni,

and get into a bar,

i ulaze u bar,

into a club.

u diskoteku.

Think for one second about what I've just said:

Razmislite na trenutak o onome što sam vam upravo rekao:

they're in a place full of strangers

nalaze se na jednom mestu punom nepoznatih osoba

in an uninhibited environment.

bez ikakvih stega.

The internet broke physical boundaries.

Internet je razbio fizičke barijere.

When we're alone in our bedroom and we go online,

Kada smo sami u sobi

i povežemo se na internet,

we're not really alone.

u suštini nismo sami.

There are at least two reasons why we're not taking care of this,

Postoje bar dva razloga zbog kojih se ne bavimo ovom temom,

or at least not in the right way.

ili barem ne na pravi način.

First, we're sure that everything that happens online is "virtual."

Prvi razlog je što smo uvereni

da je sve što se dešava na internetu virtuelno.

In fact, we call it "the virtual world."

Zapravo, zovemo ga tako, „virtuelni svet“.

If you look it up in the dictionary,

Ako potražite u rečniku,

something virtual is something that seems to exist

nešto što je virtuelno je nešto čije je postojanje prividno i nerealno.

but is not real.

And we use that word to talk about the internet:

Koristimo tu reč kada mislimo na internet:

something not real.

nešto što nije stvarno.

And that's the problem with grooming.

To je problem kod gruminga,

It is real.

što je stvaran.

Degenerate, perverted adults use the internet to abuse boys and girls

Odrasle izopačene, perverzne osobe

koriste internet da bi iskoristile dečake i devojčice.

and take advantage of, among other things,

I koriste se, između ostalog,

the fact that the kids and their parents think that what happens online

time što i deca i roditelji misle da ono što se dešava tu nije stvarno.

doesn't actually happen.

Several years ago, some colleagues and I founded an NGO

Pre nekoliko godina, sa par kolega,

osnovali smo NVO „Sajber sigurna Argentina“,

called "Argentina Cibersegura,"

dedicated to raising awareness about online safety.

posvećenu osvešćivanju ljudi o sigurnom surfovanju na internetu.

In 2013, we attended meetings at the House of Legislature

Godine 2013. učestvovali smo na sastancima

poslaničke komore,

to discuss a law about grooming.

na kojima se razgovaralo o zakonu o grumingu.

I remember that a lot of people thought

Sećam se da je za mnoge

that grooming was strictly a precursor

gruming bio samo korak koji je prethodio

to arranging an in-person meeting with a kid to have sex with them.

ugovaranju susreta uživo sa decom i seksu sa njima.

But they didn't think about what happened to the kids who were exposed

Ali nisu razmišljali šta se dešava sa decom

koja su bila izložena razgovoru o seksu sa odraslom osobom, a da to ne znaju,

by talking about sex with an adult without knowing it,

or who shared intimate photos thinking only another kid would see them,

decom koja su slala intimne fotografije, misleći da ih gleda drugo dete,

or even worse,

ili još gore,

who had exposed themselves using their web cam.

koja su se snimala veb kamerom.

Nobody considered that rape.

To niko nije video kao silovanje.

I'm sure lots of you find it odd to think one person can abuse another

Siguran sam da se mnogi od vas čude

kada pomisle da neka osoba može da iskoristi drugu bez dodirivanja.

without physical contact.

We're programmed to think that way.

Programirani smo da razmišljamo tako.

I know, because I used to think that way.

Znam to jer je bilo isto i u mom slučaju.

I was just an IT security guy

Bio sam samo tehničar informacione bezbednosti

until this happened to me.

dok mi se nije desilo ovo.

At the end of 2011,

Krajem 2011. godine,

in a little town in Buenos Aires Province,

u jednom malom gradu u pokrajini Buenos Ajres,

I heard about a case for the first time.

prvi put sam čuo za takav slučaj.

After giving a talk,

Nakon što sam održao jedno predavanje,

I met the parents of an 11-year-old girl who had been a victim of grooming.

prišli su mi roditelji jedne devojčice od 11 godina

koja je bila žrtva gruminga.

A man had manipulated her into masturbating in front of her web cam,

Jedan čovek ju je nagovorio

da masturbira pred veb kamerom

and recorded it.

i snimio ju je.

And the video was on several websites.

Njegov video je kružio po raznim sajtovima.

That day, her parents asked us, in tears,

Tog dana, njeni roditelji su u suzama tražili

to tell them the magic formula

da im damo uputstvo za uklanjanje tog videa sa interneta.

for how to delete those videos from the internet.

It broke my heart and changed me forever

Duša me je zabolela,

i delimično me je promenilo zauvek,

to be their last disappointment, telling them it was too late:

to što sam im potpuno srušio nadu i rekao im da je već kasno:

once content is online,

kada jedanput neki sadržaj dođe na internet,

we've already lost control.

tada gubimo kontrolu.

Since that day, I think about that girl

Od tog dana razmišljam o toj devojčici,

waking up in the morning, having breakfast with her family,

koja je ustajala ujutro

i doručkovala sa svojom porodicom, koja je videla njen snimak,

who had seen the video,

and then walking to school, meeting people that had seen her naked,

išla peške do škole

i susretala se sa ljudima koji su je videli nagu,

arriving to school, playing with her friends, who had also seen her.

dolazila u školu i igrala se sa prijateljima koji su je takođe videli.

That was her life.

Tako je živela.

Exposed.

Izložena.

Of course, nobody raped her body.

Naravno da niko nije silovao njeno telo.

But hadn't her sexuality been abused?

Ali zar nije bila zloupotrebljena njena seksualnost?

We clearly use different standards to measure physical and digital things.

Jasno je da koristimo različite aršine kada merimo fizičko i digitalno.

And we get angry at social networks

I ljutimo se na društvene mreže,

because being angry with ourselves is more painful and more true.

jer ako se naljutimo na sebe same, onda je bolnije i iskrenije.

And this brings us to the second reason why

Ovo nas vodi do drugog motiva

we aren't paying proper attention to this issue.

zbog kojeg se ne bavimo adekvatno ovom temom.

We're convinced that kids don't need our help,

Ubeđeni smo

da deci ne treba naša pomoć,

that they "know everything" about technology.

da im je „sve jasno“ u vezi sa tehnologijom.

When I was a kid,

Kada sam ja bio dete,

at one point, my parents started letting me walk to school alone.

jednog momenta su me pustili da sam idem peške do škole.

After years of taking me by the hand and walking me to school,

Nakon što su me roditelji godinama pratili držeći me za ruku,

one day they sat me down,

tog dana su mi rekli da sednem,

gave me the house keys

dali mi ključeve od kuće

and said, "Be very careful with these; don't give them to anyone,

i rekli mi: „Čuvaj ih dobro, ne daj ih nikome,

take the route we showed you, be at home at the time we said,

idi i vrati se onim putem koji smo ti pokazali,

vrati se u vreme koje smo ti rekli,

cross at the corner, and look both ways before you cross,

pređi ulicu na uglu, gledaj na obe strane pre prelaska,

and no matter what, don't talk to strangers."

i, što je najvažnije, ne pričaj sa nepoznatima.“

I knew everything about walking,

Meni je sve to bilo jasno

and yet, there was a responsible adult there taking care of me.

ali, bez obzira na to, tamo je bila figura odrasle osobe zadužene da me čuva.

Knowing how to do something is one thing,

Jedna stvar je kada znaš da uradiš nešto,

knowing how to take care of yourself is another.

a druga stvar je kada znaš da se čuvaš.

Imagine this situation:

Zamislite sada ovu situaciju:

I'm 10 or 11 years old, I wake up in the morning,

imam 10 ili 11 godina, ustajem ujutro,

my parents toss me the keys and say,

daju mi ključeve od kuće i kažu mi:

„Seba, danas možeš da ideš peške u školu.“

"Seba, now you can walk to school alone."

And when I come back late,

A kada dođem kasnije,

they say, "No, you need to be home at the time we said."

kažu mi: „A, ne! Moraš da dođeš tačno kada smo ti rekli.“

And two weeks later,

A dve nedelje kasnije,

when it comes up, they say, "You know what?

kada prelazim ulicu: „Znaš šta?

You have to cross at the corner, and look both ways before crossing."

Moraš da pređeš ulicu na uglu

i da gledaš na obe strane pre nego što pređeš.“

And two years later, they say,

A dve godine kasnije:

"And also, don't talk to strangers."

„A, da, i ne pričaj sa nepoznatima.“

It sounds absurd, right?

Zvuči smešno, zar ne?

We have the same absurd behavior in relation to technology.

Tako smešno se ponašamo sa tehnologijom.

We give kids total access

Damo deci celokupan pristup

and we see if one day, sooner or later,

i gledamo da li će jednog dana, pre ili kasnije,

they learn how to take care of themselves.

naučiti da se paze.

Knowing how to do something is one thing,

Jedna stvar je kada znate da uradite nešto,

knowing how to take care of yourself is another.

a druga stvar je kada znate da se čuvate.

Along those same lines, when we talk to parents,

Isto tako, kada držimo predavanja roditeljima,

they often say they don't care about technology and social networks.

često nam kažu da ih ne zanima tehnologija,

da ih ne interesuju društvene mreže.

I always rejoin that by asking if they care about their kids.

Uvek im postavim pitanje da li ih interesuju njihova deca.

As adults, being interested or not in technology

Kao odrasle osobe, da li ćemo se približiti tehnologiji ili ne

is the same as being interested or not in our kids.

isto je kao i da li ćemo se približiti deci ili ne.

The internet is part of their lives.

Internet je deo njihovih života.

Technology forces us to rethink the relationship between adults and kids.

Tehnologija nas obavezuje

da preispitamo vezu između odraslih i dece.

Education was always based on two main concepts:

Obrazovanje se oduvek oslanjalo na dve stvari:

experience and knowledge.

na iskustvo i na znanje.

How do we teach our kids to be safe online when we don't have either?

Kako onda da naučimo decu da sigurno surfuju po internetu

ako nemamo ništa od ovoga?

Nowadays, we adults have to guide our children

Danas kao odrasli moramo da usmeravamo decu

through what is often for us unfamiliar territory --

na poljima koja često ne poznajemo

territory much more inviting for them.

i koja su njima poznatija.

It's impossible to find an answer

U tom slučaju nemoguće je naći odgovor

without doing new things -- things that make us uncomfortable,

a da ne uradimo nešto novo što nam ne prija

things we're not used to.

i na šta nismo naviknuti.

A lot of you may think it's easy for me,

Mnogi od vas će pomisliti da je ovo lako za mene

because I'm relatively young.

jer sam relativno mlad.

And it used to be that way.

I većinom je bilo tako.

Used to.

Bilo.

Until last year,

Sve do prošle godine,

when I felt the weight of my age on my shoulders

kada sam osetio težinu godina na svojim ramenima

the first time I opened Snapchat.

prvi put kada sam otvorio Snepčet.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Aplauz)

(Applause)

I didn't understand a thing!

Ništa mi nije bilo jasno!

I found it unnecessary,

Pomislio sam da je to jedna nepotrebna društvena mreža,

useless, hard to understand;

nekorisna, nerazumljiva;

it looked like a camera!

izgledala je kao fotoaparat!

It didn't have menu options!

Nije imala meni sa opcijama!

It was the first time I felt the gap

To je bio prvi put kada sam osetio jaz

that sometimes exists between kids and adults.

koji se ponekad javlja između dece i odraslih.

But it was also an opportunity to do the right thing,

Ali u isto vreme, to je bila prilika da uradim šta treba:

to leave my comfort zone, to force myself.

da izađem iz zone komfora i da se nateram da radim.

I never thought I'd ever use Snapchat,

Prvo sam obećao sebi da nikada više neću koristiti Snepčet.

but then I asked my teenage cousin to show me how to use it.

Ali kasnije sam zamolio svoju rođaku adolescentkinju

da mi objasni kako se koristi.

I also asked why she used it.

I, takođe, zašto to koristi.

What was fun about it?

Šta ju je tu zabavljalo?

We had a really nice talk.

Imali smo divan razgovor.

She showed me her Snapchat, she told me things,

Pokazala mi je svoj Snepčet, ispričala mi neke stvari,

we got closer, we laughed.

zbližili smo se, smejali se.

Today, I use it.

Danas ga koristim...

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

I don't know if I do it right,

ne znam da li dobro,

but the most important thing is that I know it and I understand it.

ali najvažnije je da ga poznajem

i da ga razumem.

The key was to overcome the initial shock

Bilo je bitno da se podstaknem da se odvojim od prvobitnog utiska,

and do something new.

da se upustim u nešto novo;

Something new.

nešto novo.

Today, we have the chance to create new conversations.

Danas imamo priliku da stvaramo nove dijaloge.

What's the last app you downloaded?

Koja je poslednja aplikacija koju si skinuo?

Which social network do you use to contact your friends?

Koju društvenu mrežu koristiš za komunikaciju sa prijateljima?

What kind of information do you share?

Koje informacije objavljuješ?

Have you ever been approached by strangers?

Da li je neka nepoznata osoba pokušala da razgovara sa tobom?

Could we have these conversations between kids and adults?

Da li možemo da vodimo ovakve razgovore, deco i odrasli?

We have to force ourselves to do it. All of us.

Moramo da se nateramo, svi.

Today, lots of kids are listening to us.

Ovde ima dosta mladih koji nas slušaju.

Sometimes when we go to schools to give our talks,

Često kada im držimo predavanja u školama

or through social networks,

ili putem društvenih mreža,

kids ask or tell us things

deca nas pitaju ili nam pričaju stvari

they haven't told their parents or their teachers.

koje se još nisu usudili da kažu svojim roditeljima ili nastavnicima -

They tell us -- they don't even know us.

nama, koje i ne poznaju.

Those kids need to know

Ova deca treba da znaju

what the risks of being online are,

koji rizici postoje pri surfovanju na internetu,

how to take care of themselves,

kako da se čuvaju,

but also that, fundamentally, as with almost everything else,

ali što je još važnije od toga, kao i skoro sve ostalo,

kids can learn this from any adult.

kada su deca, mogu da nauče od bilo koje odrasle osobe.

Online safety needs to be a conversation topic

Sigurno surfovanje po internetu mora da bude tema razgovora

in every house and every classroom in the country.

u svakoj kući i u svakoj učionici u okviru cele zemlje.

We did a survey this year that showed that 15 percent of schools said

U jednoj anketi koju smo sproveli ove godine,

15 odsto škola je naglasilo da se susrelo sa slučajevima gruminga

they knew of cases of grooming in their school.

u svojoj instituciji.

And this number is growing.

A broj se povećava.

Technology changed every aspect of our life,

Tehnologija je promenila sve aspekte našeg života,

including the risks we face

uključujući rizike sa kojima se susrećemo

and how we take care of ourselves.

i način na koji se čuvamo.

Grooming shows us this in the most painful way:

A gruming nam to pokazuje na najbolniji način:

by involving our kids.

petljajući se sa decom.

Are we going to do something to avoid this?

Da li ćemo se uključiti da to izbegnemo?

The solution starts with something as easy as:

Rešenje počinje nečim tako običnim poput ovoga:

talking about it.

razgovarom o temi.

Thank you.

Hvala puno.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)