Sebastián Bortnik: The conversation we're not having about digital child abuse (w/ subtitles) | TED

Translator: Romina Pol Reviewer: Sebastian Betti

Prevoditelj: Antea Muzic Recezent: Ivan Stamenković

[This talk contains graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.]

[Ovaj video sadrži grafički sadržaj. Gledatelju se preporučuje oprez.]

This is Nina Rodríguez's Facebook profile.

Ovo je Facebook profil Nine Rodríguez.

This person had three different profiles

Imala je tri različita profila

and 890 kids between 8 and 13 years old among her friends list.

i 890 dječaka starih između 8 i 13 godina među svojim kontaktima.

These are excerpts of a chat with one of those kids.

Ovo su isječci razgovora s jednim od tih dječaka.

This is an exact copy of the chat.

Razgovor je tekstualan

It's part of the case file.

i nalazi se u dosjeu.

This kid started sending private photos

Ovaj joj je dječak slao intimne slike

until his family realized what was going on.

sve dok njegova obitelj nije za to saznala.

The police report and subsequent investigation lead them to a house.

Optužbom i istragom koja je uslijedila razotkriveno je mjesto prebivališta.

This was the girl's bedroom.

Ovo je bila njezina soba.

Nina Rodríguez was actually a 24-year-old man

Nina Rodríguez je u stvarnosti bila odrasla osoba od 24 godine

that used to do this with lots of kids.

koja je to običavala raditi mnogim maloljetnicima.

Micaela Ortega was 12 years old

Micaela Ortega imala je 12 godina

when she went to meet her new Facebook friend,

kada se otišla naći s novom Facebook prijateljicom

also 12.

istih godina.

"Rochi de River," was her name.

Govorila je da se zove "Rochi de River".

She actually met Jonathan Luna, who was 26 years old.

U stvarnosti se našla s Jonathanom Lunom (26)

When they finally caught him,

koji je, kad su ga konačno uhitili, priznao da ju je ubio

he confessed that he killed the girl because she refused to have sex with him.

jer djevojčica nije htjela imati seksualne odnose.

He had four Facebook profiles

On je imao četiri Facebook profila

and 1,700 women on his contact list;

i 1700 žena među kontaktima.

90 percent of them were under 13 years old.

Devedeset posto njih bilo je mlađe od 13 godina.

These are two different cases of "grooming":

Ovo su dva različita slučaja "groominga":

an adult contacts a kid through the internet,

odrasla osoba kontaktira maloljetnu preko Interneta

and through manipulation or lying, leads that kid into sexual territory --

te ih manipulacijom ili prijevarom

dovodi do seksualnog područja,

from talking about sex

od razgovora o seksu do dijeljenja intimnih fotografija,

to sharing private photos,

recording the kid using a webcam

snimanja preko web kamere

or arranging an in-person meeting.

ili dogovora fizičkog susreta.

This is grooming.

To je grooming.

This is happening, and it's on the rise.

Postoji i dobiva na snazi.

The question is: What are we going to do?

Pitanje je: "Što ćemo učiniti?"

jer su u međuvremenu djeca sama.

Because, in the meantime, kids are alone.

They finish dinner, go to their rooms,

Završavaju s večerom, odlaze u sobu,

close the door,

zatvaraju vrata

get on their computer, their cell phones,

uzimaju računalo, mobitel

and get into a bar,

i ulaze u klub,

into a club.

u disko.

Think for one second about what I've just said:

Razmislite na sekundu o ovome što sam vam rekao:

they're in a place full of strangers

nalaze se na mjestu punom neznanaca

in an uninhibited environment.

u okruženju bez inhibicija.

The internet broke physical boundaries.

Internet je slomio fizičke prepreke.

When we're alone in our bedroom and we go online,

Kad smo sami u svojoj sobi

i spojimo se na Internet,

we're not really alone.

zapravo nismo sami.

There are at least two reasons why we're not taking care of this,

Postoje najmanje dva razloga zašto se ne zanimamo za ovu temu,

or at least not in the right way.

odnosno zašto se ne zanimamo na pravi način.

First, we're sure that everything that happens online is "virtual."

Prvi je zato što smo sigurni

da je sve što se događa na Internetu virtualno.

U biti, tako ga i zovemo: "virtualni svijet".

In fact, we call it "the virtual world."

If you look it up in the dictionary,

Ako potražite u rječniku,

something virtual is something that seems to exist

virtualno znači nešto prividno i nestvarno.

but is not real.

And we use that word to talk about the internet:

Koristimo tu riječ kad se radi o Internetu,

something not real.

nečemu nestvarnom.

And that's the problem with grooming.

I u tome leži problem s groomingom,

It is real.

koji je stvaran.

Degenerate, perverted adults use the internet to abuse boys and girls

Poremećene, izopaćene odrasle osobe koriste Internet

kako bi zlostavljale dječake i djevojčice.

and take advantage of, among other things,

I koriste se, izmedu ostalog, time

the fact that the kids and their parents think that what happens online

što roditelji i djeca misle da se ono što se ondje događa, zapravo ne događa.

doesn't actually happen.

Several years ago, some colleagues and I founded an NGO

Prije nekoliko godina s kolegama sam osnovao NVO, "Cybersigurna Argentina",

called "Argentina Cibersegura,"

dedicated to raising awareness about online safety.

koja se bavi osvještavanjem o sigurnom surfanju Internetom.

In 2013, we attended meetings at the House of Legislature

U 2013. sudjelovali smo na sastancima

Zastupničkog doma

to discuss a law about grooming.

gdje se raspravljalo o Zakonu o groomingu.

I remember that a lot of people thought

Sjećam se da je za mnoge

grooming značio tek korak koji prethodi

that grooming was strictly a precursor

to arranging an in-person meeting with a kid to have sex with them.

dogovoru za fizički susret s djecom i spolnim odnosima s njima.

But they didn't think about what happened to the kids who were exposed

No, nisu mislili da se događa djeci

koja su neznajući bila izložena razgovoru o seksu s odraslom osobom,

by talking about sex with an adult without knowing it,

or who shared intimate photos thinking only another kid would see them,

koja su dijelila intimne slike misleći da će ih vidjeti drugo dijete

or even worse,

ili, još gore,

who had exposed themselves using their web cam.

koja su se razotkrivala preko web kamere;

Nobody considered that rape.

nitko to nije doživljavao zlostavljanjem.

I'm sure lots of you find it odd to think one person can abuse another

Siguran sam da za mnoge od vas zvuči čudno

da netko nekoga može zlostavljati a da ga pritom ne dotakne.

without physical contact.

We're programmed to think that way.

Oblikovani smo da tako mislimo.

I know, because I used to think that way.

Znam, jer sam i ja bio takav.

I was just an IT security guy

Bio sam običan tehničar za informatičku sigurnost

until this happened to me.

dok mi se nije dogodilo ovo.

At the end of 2011,

Krajem 2011. godine,

in a little town in Buenos Aires Province,

u malom gradu provincije Buenos Aires,

I heard about a case for the first time.

prvi sam put čuo za takav jedan slučaj.

After giving a talk,

Kad sam završio s izlaganjem,

I met the parents of an 11-year-old girl who had been a victim of grooming.

prišli su mi roditelji jedanaestogodišnje djevojčice

koja je bila žrtva groominga.

A man had manipulated her into masturbating in front of her web cam,

Odrasla osoba ju je nagovorila

da se samozadovolji pred web kamerom

and recorded it.

te ju je snimila.

And the video was on several websites.

I video je kružio raznim Internet stranicama.

That day, her parents asked us, in tears,

Tog su nas dana roditelji u suzama molili

to tell them the magic formula

da im damo recept kako maknuti te snimke s Interneta.

for how to delete those videos from the internet.

It broke my heart and changed me forever

Slomilo mi se srce,

a dio mene se promijenio zauvijek;

to be their last disappointment, telling them it was too late:

bio sam njihovo zadnje razočaranje i rekao da je za to prekasno.

once content is online,

Jednom kad se sadržaj podijeli na Internetu

we've already lost control.

nemamo više kontrolu nad njim.

Since that day, I think about that girl

Od tog dana mislim na tu djevojčicu,

waking up in the morning, having breakfast with her family,

koja se ujutro budi

i doručkuje sa svojom obitelji koja je vidjela taj video,

who had seen the video,

i odlazi u školu

and then walking to school, meeting people that had seen her naked,

i putem susreće ljude koji su je vidjeli golu,

arriving to school, playing with her friends, who had also seen her.

i dolazi i igra se s prijateljima koji su je također takvu vidjeli.

That was her life.

Tako živi.

Exposed.

Izložena.

Of course, nobody raped her body.

Naravno da je nitko nije silovao.

But hadn't her sexuality been abused?

No, nije li njezina seksualnost iskorištena?

We clearly use different standards to measure physical and digital things.

Očito je da imamo različite mjere za ono fizičko i ono digitalno.

And we get angry at social networks

Ljutimo se na društvene mreže

because being angry with ourselves is more painful and more true.

jer ljutiti se na nas same bilo bi bolnije i iskrenije.

And this brings us to the second reason why

To nas dovodi do drugog razloga

we aren't paying proper attention to this issue.

zašto se ne zanimamo za ovu temu na pravi način.

Uvjereni smo

We're convinced that kids don't need our help,

da djeca ne trebaju našu pomoć,

that they "know everything" about technology.

da im je tehnologija "jasna".

When I was a kid,

Kad sam ja bio dijete,

at one point, my parents started letting me walk to school alone.

u nekom su mi trenutku dopustili da idem sam u školu.

After years of taking me by the hand and walking me to school,

Nakon što su me godinama starci držali za ruku,

one day they sat me down,

jednog dana su me posjeli,

gave me the house keys

dali mi ključeve od kuće

and said, "Be very careful with these; don't give them to anyone,

i rekli: "Dobro ih čuvaj, ne daj ih nikome,

take the route we showed you, be at home at the time we said,

idi i vrati se putem koji smo ti pokazali,

vrati se u vrijeme koje smo ti rekli,

cross at the corner, and look both ways before you cross,

prijeđi cestu na uglu, a prije pogledaj lijevo i desno

and no matter what, don't talk to strangers."

i, najvažnije, ne pričaj s nepoznatima".

I knew everything about walking,

Jako sam dobro znao hodati,

and yet, there was a responsible adult there taking care of me.

a ipak, tu je bila figura odrasle osobe zadužene da me pazi.

Knowing how to do something is one thing,

Jedna je stvar znati nešto raditi,

knowing how to take care of yourself is another.

a druga je znati se paziti.

Imagine this situation:

Zamislite sa mnom sljedeću situaciju:

I'm 10 or 11 years old, I wake up in the morning,

imam 10 ili 11 godina, probudim se ujutro,

my parents toss me the keys and say,

bace mi ključeve od kuće i kažu:

"Seba, danas možeš ići sam pješke u školu".

"Seba, now you can walk to school alone."

And when I come back late,

I kad se vratim kasno,

they say, "No, you need to be home at the time we said."

kažu mi: "Ah, ne! Moraš se vratiti u vrijeme koje ti kažemo".

And two weeks later,

I dva tjedna kasnije,

when it comes up, they say, "You know what?

usputno: "Znaš što?

You have to cross at the corner, and look both ways before crossing."

Moraš prelaziti cestu na uglu

i prije pogledati lijevo i desno".

And two years later, they say,

I dvije godine poslije:

"And also, don't talk to strangers."

"Ah! I ne pričaj s nepoznatima".

It sounds absurd, right?

Zvuči blesavo, zar ne?

We have the same absurd behavior in relation to technology.

Tako se blesavo mi ponašamo s tehnologijom.

We give kids total access

Djeci dajemo potpuni pristup

and we see if one day, sooner or later,

i čekamo hoće li jednog dana, kasnije no što bi trebali,

they learn how to take care of themselves.

naučiti kako se paziti.

Knowing how to do something is one thing,

Jedna stvar je znati nešto učiniti,

knowing how to take care of yourself is another.

druga je znati se paziti.

Along those same lines, when we talk to parents,

Također, kad držimo govore za roditelje

they often say they don't care about technology and social networks.

često nam kažu kako njih ne zanima tehnologija,

kako ih ne zanimaju društvene mreže.

I always rejoin that by asking if they care about their kids.

Uvijek ih na to upitam zanimaju li ih njihova djeca.

As adults, being interested or not in technology

Za nas odrasle, približiti se ili ne tehnologiji

is the same as being interested or not in our kids.

znači isto što i približiti se ili ne djeci.

The internet is part of their lives.

Internet je dio njihovog života.

Technology forces us to rethink the relationship between adults and kids.

Tehnologija nas tjera da promislimo

o odnosu između odraslih i maloljetnika.

Education was always based on two main concepts:

Obrazovanje je uvijek počivalo na dva stupa:

iskustvu i znanju.

experience and knowledge.

How do we teach our kids to be safe online when we don't have either?

Kako onda možemo podučavati kako sigurno pretraživati Internet

kad nemamo ni jedno ni drugo?

Nowadays, we adults have to guide our children

Mi odrasli danas moramo usmjeravati djecu

through what is often for us unfamiliar territory --

u područjima koje često ne poznajemo,

territory much more inviting for them.

a njima su vrlo bliska.

It's impossible to find an answer

Nemoguće je, dakle, pronaći odgovor

without doing new things -- things that make us uncomfortable,

ako se ne upustimo u stvari koje nam nisu toliko ugodne,

things we're not used to.

na koje nismo navikli.

A lot of you may think it's easy for me,

Mnogi od vas možda misle da je meni sve ovo jednostavno

because I'm relatively young.

jer sam relativno mlad.

And it used to be that way.

I uglavnom je to i bilo tako.

Used to.

Bilo.

Until last year,

Do prošle godine

when I felt the weight of my age on my shoulders

kad sam osjetio teške godine na leđima

the first time I opened Snapchat.

prvi put kad sam otvorio Snapchat.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

(Pljesak)

(Applause)

I didn't understand a thing!

Apsolutno ništa nisam shvaćao!

I found it unnecessary,

Djelovao mi je kao nepotrebna društvena mreža,

useless, hard to understand;

beskorisna, neshvatljiva;

it looked like a camera!

činio se poput fotoaparata!

It didn't have menu options!

Nije imao izbornik s opcijama!

It was the first time I felt the gap

Tad sam prvi put osjetio jaz

that sometimes exists between kids and adults.

koji ponekad postoji između djece i odraslih.

But it was also an opportunity to do the right thing,

Ali, istovremeno je to bila prilika da učinim nešto ispravno:

to leave my comfort zone, to force myself.

da izađem iz ugodne zone i da se prislim.

I never thought I'd ever use Snapchat,

Osjećao sam da nikad u životu neću koristiti Snapchat.

but then I asked my teenage cousin to show me how to use it.

Ipak, kasnije sam upitao moju sestričnu, tinejdžericu,

da mi objasni kako ga koristi.

I also asked why she used it.

Ali, i zašto ga koristi.

What was fun about it?

Zašto je zabavlja.

We had a really nice talk.

Lijepo smo porazgovarali.

She showed me her Snapchat, she told me things,

Pokazala mi je svoj Snapchat, svašta mi ispričala,

we got closer, we laughed.

zbližili smo se i nasmijali.

Today, I use it.

Danas ga koristim,

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

I don't know if I do it right,

ne znam koliko dobro,

but the most important thing is that I know it and I understand it.

ali najbitnije je da mi je poznat

i da ga razumijem.

The key was to overcome the initial shock

Ključ je bio u tome da se othrvam početnom dojmu,

and do something new.

da se upustim učiniti nešto novo,

Something new.

nešto novo.

Today, we have the chance to create new conversations.

Danas imamo priliku stvoriti nove dijaloge.

What's the last app you downloaded?

Koja je zadnja aplikacija koju si skinuo?

Which social network do you use to contact your friends?

Na kojoj društvenoj mreži razgovaraš s prijateljima?

What kind of information do you share?

Koju vrstu informacija dijeliš?

Have you ever been approached by strangers?

Je li netko nepoznat probao razgovarati s tobom?

Could we have these conversations between kids and adults?

Možemo li ovako razgovarati mi odrasli i djeca?

We have to force ourselves to do it. All of us.

Moramo se prisiliti, svi mi.

Today, lots of kids are listening to us.

I ovdje ima mnogo mladih koji nas slušaju.

Sometimes when we go to schools to give our talks,

Često kad im držimo govore u školama

or through social networks,

ili na društvenim mrežama,

kids ask or tell us things

djeca nas pitaju ili nam ispričaju stvari

they haven't told their parents or their teachers.

koje se nisu odvažili reći ni roditeljima ni nastavnicima,

They tell us -- they don't even know us.

nama, koje ni ne poznaju.

Those kids need to know

Ta djeca moraju znati

what the risks of being online are,

koje su opasnosti surfanja po Internetu,

how to take care of themselves,

kako se paziti

but also that, fundamentally, as with almost everything else,

i, najbitnije od svega, da, kao i sve ostalo

kids can learn this from any adult.

dok su djeca, to mogu naučiti od bilo koje odrasle osobe.

Online safety needs to be a conversation topic

Sigurno pretraživanje Interneta mora biti tema razgovora

in every house and every classroom in the country.

u svakoj kući i svakoj učionici u državi.

We did a survey this year that showed that 15 percent of schools said

U anketi koju smo proveli ove godine

15% škola reklo je da su se susreli sa slučajevima groominga

they knew of cases of grooming in their school.

u svojoj instituciji.

And this number is growing.

Taj broj raste.

Technology changed every aspect of our life,

Tehnologija je promijenila sve aspekte našeg života,

including the risks we face

uključujući i opasnosti s kojima se suočavamo,

and how we take care of ourselves.

i način na koji se pazimo.

Grooming shows us this in the most painful way:

Grooming nam je to pokazao na najbolniji način:

by involving our kids.

okomivši se na djecu.

Are we going to do something to avoid this?

Hoćemo li se uključiti da ga izbjegnemo?

Rješenje polazi od vrlo jednostavnog poteza:

The solution starts with something as easy as:

talking about it.

razgovarati o toj temi.

Thank you.

Puno hvala.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)