Nationalism vs. globalism: the new political divide | Yuval Noah Harari

1,875,726 views ใƒป 2017-02-21

TED


์•„๋ž˜ ์˜๋ฌธ์ž๋ง‰์„ ๋”๋ธ”ํด๋ฆญํ•˜์‹œ๋ฉด ์˜์ƒ์ด ์žฌ์ƒ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

๋ฒˆ์—ญ: Ju Hye Lim ๊ฒ€ํ† : Jihyeon J. Kim
00:12
Chris Anderson: Hello. Welcome to this TED Dialogues.
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค ์•ค๋”์Šจ: ์•ˆ๋…•ํ•˜์„ธ์š”. TED ๋Œ€ํ™”์— ์˜ค์‹  ๊ฑธ ํ™˜์˜ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:16
It's the first of a series that's going to be done
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์ด ๋‹ดํ™”๋Š” ์ด ์‹œ๋ฆฌ์ฆˆ์˜ ์ฒซ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋กœ
00:20
in response to the current political upheaval.
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์ •์น˜์  ๊ฒฉ๋ณ€๊ธฐ์— ๋Œ€์‘ํ•˜์—ฌ ๋งŒ๋“ค์–ด์ง„ ๋Œ€ํ™”์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:24
I don't know about you;
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๊ฐ•์—ฐ์ž๋‹˜์€ ์–ด๋–จ์ง€ ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์ง€๋งŒ
00:25
I've become quite concerned about the growing divisiveness in this country
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์ €๋Š” ๊ตญ๋‚ด์™€ ์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ์ ์  ๋” ์‹ฌํ™”๋˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”
00:28
and in the world.
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๋ถ„์—ด์ด ์ƒ๋‹นํžˆ ์šฐ๋ ค๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:30
No one's listening to each other. Right?
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์•„๋ฌด๋„ ์„œ๋กœ์˜ ๋ง์— ๊ท€๊ธฐ์šธ์ด์ง€ ์•Š์ž–์•„์š”?
00:33
They aren't.
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๊ท€๊ธฐ์šธ์ด์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
00:34
I mean, it feels like we need a different kind of conversation,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์œ ํ˜•์˜ ๋Œ€ํ™”๊ฐ€ ํ•„์š”ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
00:38
one that's based on -- I don't know, on reason, listening, on understanding,
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๋…ผ๋ฆฌ์™€ ๊ฒฝ์ฒญ๊ณผ ์ดํ•ด์™€ ๋” ๋„“์€ ๋งฅ๋žต์— ๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜์„ ๋‘”
00:44
on a broader context.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋Œ€ํ™” ๋ง์ด์ฃ .
00:46
That's at least what we're going to try in these TED Dialogues,
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ TED ๋Œ€ํ™”์—์„œ๋Š” ์˜ค๋Š˜๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ํ•ด ๋ณผ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:49
starting today.
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00:50
And we couldn't have anyone with us
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ด ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•˜๊ธฐ์—
00:53
who I'd be more excited to kick this off.
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์ด ๋ถ„๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ํฅ๋ถ„๋˜๋Š” ๋ถ„์€ ์—†์„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:56
This is a mind right here that thinks pretty much like no one else
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์šฐ์„  ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ์ž๋ฉด, ์ด ์ง€๊ตฌ์ƒ์˜ ๋‚จ๋“ค๊ณผ๋Š” ์ „ํ˜€
01:00
on the planet, I would hasten to say.
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๋‹ค๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ์‚ฌ๊ณ ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ถ„์ด์‹ญ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:02
I'm serious.
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์ •๋ง๋กœ์š”.
01:03
(Yuval Noah Harari laughs)
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(์œ ๋ฐœ ๋…ธ์•„ ํ•˜๋ผ๋ฆฌ ์›ƒ์Œ)
01:04
I'm serious.
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์ง„์‹ฌ์ด์—์š”.
01:05
He synthesizes history with underlying ideas
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์˜ ์ˆจ์ด ๋ฉŽ์„ ๋งŒํผ ๋†€๋ผ์šด ๋ฐฉ์‹์œผ๋กœ
01:10
in a way that kind of takes your breath away.
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๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ์ƒ๊ฐ๋“ค์„ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์™€ ๊ฒฐํ•ฉ์‹œํ‚ต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:12
So, some of you will know this book, "Sapiens."
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ ๊ณ„์‹  ๋ช‡๋ช‡ ๋ถ„์€ "์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค" ์ฑ…์„ ์•„์‹ค ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
01:16
Has anyone here read "Sapiens"?
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"์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค" ์ฝ์–ด๋ณด์‹  ๋ถ„ ์žˆ๋‚˜์š”?
01:18
(Applause)
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(๋ฐ•์ˆ˜)
01:19
I mean, I could not put it down.
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์ €๋Š” ์ฑ…์„ ๋‚ด๋ ค๋†“์„ ์ˆ˜๊ฐ€ ์—†๋”๋ผ๊ณ ์š”.
01:22
The way that he tells the story of mankind
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋‹ค๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ฒŒ๋” ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š”
01:26
through big ideas that really make you think differently --
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๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ƒ๊ฐ๋“ค์„ ํ†ตํ•ด ์ธ๋ฅ˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋“ค๋ ค์ฃผ๋Š” ๋ฐฉ์‹์ด
01:30
it's kind of amazing.
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๋†€๋ผ์›Œ์š”.
01:31
And here's the follow-up,
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์ด๊ฑด ์†ํŽธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:33
which I think is being published in the US next week.
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๋ฏธ๊ตญ์— ๋‹ค์Œ์ฃผ์— ์ถœ์‹œ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
01:36
YNH: Yeah, next week.
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ๋‹ค์Œ์ฃผ์˜ˆ์š”.
01:37
CA: "Homo Deus."
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: "ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ๋ฐ์šฐ์Šค"
01:38
Now, this is the history of the next hundred years.
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์ด ์ฑ…์€ ์ด์–ด์ง€๋Š” 100๋…„๊ฐ„์˜ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:42
I've had a chance to read it.
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์•„์ง ๋ชป ์ฝ์–ด๋ดค์ง€๋งŒ
01:44
It's extremely dramatic,
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๋งค์šฐ ๊ทน์ ์ด์—์š”.
01:46
and I daresay, for some people, quite alarming.
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ฐํžˆ ๋งํ•˜์ž๋ฉด ์–ด๋–ค ์ด๋“ค์—๊ฒ ๊ฒฝ์ข…์„ ์šธ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์ฑ…์ด์ฃ .
01:51
It's a must-read.
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๋ฐ˜๋“œ์‹œ ์ฝ์–ด๋ด์•ผ ํ•  ์ฑ…์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:52
And honestly, we couldn't have someone better to help
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์ง€๊ธˆ ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ ๋ฌด์Šจ ์ผ์ด ๋ฒŒ์–ด์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
01:58
make sense of what on Earth is happening in the world right now.
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์ด ๋ถ„๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ž˜ ์•Œ๋ ค์ฃผ์‹ค ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ถ„์€ ์—†์„๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
02:02
So a warm welcome, please, to Yuval Noah Harari.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋œจ๊ฑฐ์šด ๋ฐ•์ˆ˜๋กœ ํ™˜์˜ํ•ด์ฃผ์„ธ์š”. ์œ ๋ฐœ ๋…ธ์•„ ํ•˜๋ผ๋ฆฌ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:06
(Applause)
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(๋ฐ•์ˆ˜)
02:14
It's great to be joined by our friends on Facebook and around the Web.
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์ธํ„ฐ๋„ท ์ƒ๊ณผ ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์ƒ์˜ ์นœ๊ตฌ๋“ค๊ณผ ํ•จ๊ป˜ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋˜์–ด ๊ธฐ์˜๋„ค์š”.
02:18
Hello, Facebook.
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ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„, ์•ˆ๋…•ํ•˜์„ธ์š”.
02:20
And all of you, as I start asking questions of Yuval,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋ชจ๋‘๋“ค ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์œ ๋ฐœ์˜ ์งˆ๋ฌธ๋“ค์„ ๋ฌป๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ• ํ…๋ฐ
02:24
come up with your own questions,
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๋„ ์ž์‹ ๋งŒ์˜ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด ๋ณด์„ธ์š”.
02:25
and not necessarily about the political scandal du jour,
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์š”์ฆ˜์˜ ์ •์น˜ ์Šค์บ”๋“ค์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ผ ํ•„์š”๋Š” ์—†๊ณ 
02:28
but about the broader understanding of: Where are we heading?
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์–ด๋””๋กœ ํ–ฅํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํญ ๋„“์€ ์ดํ•ด์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด์š”.
02:34
You ready? OK, we're going to go.
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์ค€๋น„๋˜์…จ๋‚˜์š”? ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•˜์ฃ .
02:36
So here we are, Yuval:
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์œ ๋ฐœ, ํ˜„์žฌ ์ €ํฌ๋Š” ์ด๋ž˜์š”.
02:37
New York City, 2017, there's a new president in power,
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2017๋…„์˜ ๋‰ด์š•์€ ์ƒˆ ๋Œ€ํ†ต๋ น์ด ์ง‘๊ถŒํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ณ 
02:41
and shock waves rippling around the world.
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์ถฉ๊ฒฉ์˜ ๋ฌผ๊ฒฐ์ด ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„๋กœ ํผ์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:44
What on Earth is happening?
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๋Œ€์ฒด ๋ฌด์Šจ ์ผ์ด ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑด๊ฐ€์š”?
02:46
YNH: I think the basic thing that happened
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์— ๊ฐ€์žฅ ๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋Š”
02:49
is that we have lost our story.
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ์žƒ์–ด๋ฒ„๋ฆฐ ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:51
Humans think in stories,
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์ธ๊ฐ„์€ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ ์†์—์„œ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋ฉด์„œ
02:54
and we try to make sense of the world by telling stories.
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์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋“ค๋ ค์ฃผ๋Š” ๊ฑธ ํ†ตํ•ด ์„ธ์ƒ์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๋ ค๊ณ  ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:58
And for the last few decades,
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์ง€๋‚œ ๋ช‡ ์‹ญ๋…„ ๋™์•ˆ
02:59
we had a very simple and very attractive story
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ๋“ค์— ๋Œ€ํ—ค ๋งค์šฐ ๊ฐ„๋‹จํ•˜๊ณ 
03:02
about what's happening in the world.
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๋งค๋ ฅ์ ์ธ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:04
And the story said that, oh, what's happening is
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๊ทธ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋Š” ๋ฐ”๋กœ, ํ˜„์žฌ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ์€
03:07
that the economy is being globalized,
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๊ฒฝ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”๋˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ณ 
03:10
politics is being liberalized,
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์ •์น˜๊ฐ€ ์ž์œ ํ™”๋˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ณ 
03:12
and the combination of the two will create paradise on Earth,
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๊ทธ ๋‘˜์˜ ์กฐํ•ฉ์ด ์ง€๊ตฌ์ƒ์— ์ฒœ๊ตญ์„ ๋งŒ๋“ค ๊ฒƒ์ด๋ž€ ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
03:16
and we just need to keep on globalizing the economy
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ณ„์† ๊ฒฝ์ œ๋ฅผ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”ํ•˜๊ณ 
03:19
and liberalizing the political system,
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์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์„ ์ž์œ ํ™”ํ•˜๋ฉด ๋˜๊ณ 
03:21
and everything will be wonderful.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋ฉด ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋ฆ„๋‹ค์›Œ์งˆ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ ์š”.
03:23
And 2016 is the moment
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ๋ฐ 2016๋…„๋ถ€ํ„ฐ
03:25
when a very large segment, even of the Western world,
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๋งค์šฐ ๋งŽ์€ ๊ณณ์—์„œ, ์‹ฌ์ง€์–ด ์„œ์–‘๊ถŒ์—์„œ๋„
03:29
stopped believing in this story.
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์ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋” ์ด์ƒ ์•ˆ ๋ฏฟ๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
03:32
For good or bad reasons -- it doesn't matter.
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์ข‹์€ ์ด์œ ์—์„œ๊ฑด ๋‚˜์œ ์ด์œ ์—์„œ๊ฑด์€ ์ค‘์š”ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
03:34
People stopped believing in the story,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๊ทธ๋งŒ ๋ฏฟ๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:36
and when you don't have a story, you don't understand what's happening.
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์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๊ฐ€ ์—†์œผ๋ฉด ๋ฌด์Šจ ์ผ์ด ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:41
CA: Part of you believes that that story was actually a very effective story.
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์–ด๋Š ์ •๋„๋Š” ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ๋งค์šฐ ํšจ๊ณผ์ ์ธ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์˜€๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ฏฟ์œผ์‹œ๋Š”๊ตฐ์š”.
03:45
It worked.
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ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์—ˆ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
03:46
YNH: To some extent, yes.
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์–ด๋Š ์ •๋„๋Š”์š”. ๋„ค.
03:47
According to some measurements,
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์ผ๋ถ€ ์กฐ์‚ฌ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ์— ๋”ฐ๋ฅด๋ฉด
03:49
we are now in the best time ever
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์ง€๊ธˆ ์ธ๋ฅ˜์—๊ฒŒ ์žˆ์–ด์„œ
03:52
for humankind.
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์ตœ์ƒ์˜ ์‹œ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ์‚ด๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:53
Today, for the first time in history,
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚ ์—๋Š” ์—ญ์‚ฌ์ƒ ์ตœ์ดˆ๋กœ
03:56
more people die from eating too much than from eating too little,
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์ ๊ฒŒ ๋จน์–ด์„œ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋ณด๋‹ค ๊ณผ์‹์œผ๋กœ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ๋” ๋งŽ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:00
which is an amazing achievement.
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๋Œ€๋‹จํ•œ ์—…์ ์ด์ฃ .
04:02
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
04:05
Also for the first time in history,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์—ญ์‚ฌ์ƒ ์ตœ์ดˆ๋กœ
04:07
more people die from old age than from infectious diseases,
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๋ณ‘์— ๊ฑธ๋ ค ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋ณด๋‹ค ๋…ธํ™”๋กœ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ๋” ๋งŽ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:11
and violence is also down.
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ํญ๋ ฅ์˜ ๋ฐœ์ƒ๋„ ์ค„์–ด๋“ค์—ˆ๊ณ ์š”.
04:13
For the first time in history,
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์—ญ์‚ฌ์ƒ ์ตœ์ดˆ๋กœ
04:15
more people commit suicide than are killed by crime and terrorism
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๋ฒ”์ฃ„์™€ ํ…Œ๋Ÿฌ์™€ ์ „์Ÿ์œผ๋กœ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์„ ํ•ฉํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๋ณด๋‹ค
04:20
and war put together.
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์ž์‚ด๋กœ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ๋” ๋งŽ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:22
Statistically, you are your own worst enemy.
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ํ†ต๊ณ„์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋‚ด๊ฐ€ ์ž์‹ ์˜ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ํฐ ์ ์ธ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
04:26
At least, of all the people in the world,
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์ ์–ด๋„ ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์˜ ๋ชจ๋“  ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๋ณด๋‹ค
04:28
you are most likely to be killed by yourself --
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์€ ์ž์‹ ์— ์˜ํ•ด ์ฃฝ์ž„์„ ๋‹นํ•œ ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด ๋” ํฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
04:32
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
04:33
which is, again, very good news, compared --
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๋‹ค์‹œ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ์ง€๋งŒ ์ด๊ฑด ์ข‹์€ ์†Œ์‹์ด์ฃ .
04:36
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
04:38
compared to the level of violence that we saw in previous eras.
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์ง€๋‚œ ์‹œ๋Œ€๋“ค์—์„œ ๋ชฉ๊ฒฉํ•œ ํญ๋ ฅ ์ˆ˜์ค€๊ณผ ๋น„๊ตํ–ˆ์„ ๋•Œ๋Š”์š”.
04:42
CA: But this process of connecting the world
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ์—ฐ๊ฒฐํ•˜๋Š” ๊ณผ์ •์€
04:44
ended up with a large group of people kind of feeling left out,
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๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์†Œ์™ธ๊ฐ์„ ๋Š๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๋ฅผ ์ดˆ๋ž˜ํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
04:48
and they've reacted.
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๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ์— ๋ฐ˜์‘ํ–ˆ๊ณ ์š”.
04:50
And so we have this bombshell
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ง€๊ธˆ ์ด ํญํƒ„์ด
04:52
that's sort of ripping through the whole system.
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์ œ๋„ ์ „์ฒด๋ฅผ ๊ฐ•ํƒ€ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
04:54
I mean, what do you make of what's happened?
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์ด ์ƒํ™ฉ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„  ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
04:57
It feels like the old way that people thought of politics,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์˜›๋‚ ์— ์ •์น˜๋ฅผ ๋ฐ”๋ผ๋ณด๋˜ ๋ฐฉ์‹์ธ ์ขŒํŒŒ ๋Œ€ ์šฐํŒŒ๊ฐ€
05:01
the left-right divide, has been blown up and replaced.
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ํญ๋ฐœํ•ด์„œ ์ž๋ฆฌ์žก์€ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
05:04
How should we think of this?
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์ด๊ฑธ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์•ผ ํ• ๊นŒ์š”?
05:05
YNH: Yeah, the old 20th-century political model of left versus right
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์œ ๋ฐœ: 20์„ธ๊ธฐ์˜ ์˜›๋‚  ์ •์น˜ ๋ชจํ˜•์ธ ์ขŒํŒŒ ๋Œ€ ์šฐํŒŒ๋Š” ์ด์ œ
05:10
is now largely irrelevant,
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๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„ ์ ์ ˆํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
05:11
and the real divide today is between global and national,
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์ง„์งœ ์กด์žฌํ•˜๋Š” ๋ถ„์—ด์€ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์™€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜
05:16
global or local.
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์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์™€ ์ง€์—ญ์ฃผ์˜ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:18
And you see it again all over the world
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์ด๊ฒŒ ํ˜„๋Œ€์˜ ์ฃผ์š” ๊ณผ์ œ์ธ ๊ฒƒ์„
05:21
that this is now the main struggle.
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์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:23
We probably need completely new political models
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์™„์ „ํžˆ ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์ •์น˜ ๋ชจํ˜•๊ณผ
05:26
and completely new ways of thinking about politics.
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์ •์น˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์‚ฌ๊ณ ๋ฐฉ์‹์ด ํ•„์š”ํ•  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:32
In essence, what you can say is that we now have global ecology,
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๋ณธ์งˆ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์ง€๊ธˆ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์ธ ์ƒํƒœ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ
05:37
we have a global economy but we have national politics,
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ๊ฒฝ์ œ๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์ ์ธ ์ •์น˜๋ฅผ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์„œ
05:41
and this doesn't work together.
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๋‘˜์ด ๋งž์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ณด์‹œ๋ฉด ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:43
This makes the political system ineffective,
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์ด ๋น„ํšจ์œจ์ ์ด ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:45
because it has no control over the forces that shape our life.
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์ธ์ƒ์„ ๊ฒฐ์ •์ง“๋Š” ํž˜๋“ค์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๋ ฅ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
05:49
And you have basically two solutions to this imbalance:
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์ด ๋ถˆ๊ท ํ˜•์˜ ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ…์œผ๋กœ๋Š” ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋‘ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:52
either de-globalize the economy and turn it back into a national economy,
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๊ฒฝ์ œ๋ฅผ ํƒˆ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์‹œ์ผœ์„œ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€ ๊ฒฝ์ œ๋กœ ๋˜๋Œ๋ฆฌ๊ฑฐ๋‚˜
05:57
or globalize the political system.
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์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์„ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:00
CA: So some, I guess many liberals out there
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋Ÿผ ๋งŽ์€ ์ง„๋ณด์ฃผ์˜์ž๋“ค์€
06:05
view Trump and his government as kind of irredeemably bad,
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ํŠธ๋Ÿผํ”„์™€ ํŠธ๋Ÿผํ”„ ์ •๋ถ€๋ฅผ ๋ชจ๋“  ๋ฉด์—์„œ ๋Œ์ดํ‚ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์„ ๋งŒํผ
06:11
just awful in every way.
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๋‚˜์˜๊ณ  ๋”์ฐํ•˜๋‹ค๊ณ  ์—ฌ๊ธฐ๊ฒ ๊ตฐ์š”.
06:14
Do you see any underlying narrative or political philosophy in there
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ ๋‚ด์žฌ๋œ ๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ํ•ด์„ค์ด๋‚˜ ์ •์น˜์  ์ฒ ํ•™ ์ค‘์— ์ดํ•ดํ• ๋งŒํ• 
06:21
that is at least worth understanding?
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๊ฐ€์น˜๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์žˆ๋‚˜์š”?
06:22
How would you articulate that philosophy?
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๊ทธ ์ฒ ํ•™์„ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ํ‘œํ˜„ํ•˜์‹œ๊ฒ ์–ด์š”?
06:24
Is it just the philosophy of nationalism?
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๊ทธ์ € ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์˜ ์ฒ ํ•™์ผ ๋ฟ์ธ ๊ฑด๊ฐ€์š”?
06:28
YNH: I think the underlying feeling or idea
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋ณด๊ธฐ์— ๋‚ด์žฌ๋œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์ด๋‚˜ ๊ฐ์ •์€
06:33
is that the political system -- something is broken there.
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์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์ด๋‚˜ ๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ๋ง๊ฐ€์ ธ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:38
It doesn't empower the ordinary person anymore.
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๋” ์ด์ƒ ํ‰๋ฒ”ํ•œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์—๊ฒŒ ๊ถŒ๋ ฅ์„ ์ฃผ์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
06:41
It doesn't care so much about the ordinary person anymore,
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๋” ์ด์ƒ ํ‰๋ฒ”ํ•œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋งŽ์€ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ–์ง€๋„ ์•Š์•„์š”.
06:45
and I think this diagnosis of the political disease is correct.
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋ณด๊ธฐ์—” ์ •์น˜์˜ ๋ณ‘ํ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ด ์ง„๋‹จ์€ ์˜ณ์€ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:50
With regard to the answers, I am far less certain.
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๊ทธ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋‹ต์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š” ์ œ ํ™•์‹ ์ด ๋œ ์„œ๋„ค์š”.
06:53
I think what we are seeing is the immediate human reaction:
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ง€๊ธˆ ๋ชฉ๊ฒฉํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์˜ ์ฆ‰๊ฐ์ ์ธ ๋ฐ˜์‘ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
06:57
if something doesn't work, let's go back.
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๋ญ”๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์—†์œผ๋ฉด ๋‹ค์‹œ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์ž.
06:59
And you see it all over the world,
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์ด๊ฑธ ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
07:01
that people, almost nobody in the political system today,
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚ ์˜ ์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์— ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ ๋ชจ๋“  ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
07:05
has any future-oriented vision of where humankind is going.
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์ธ๋ฅ˜๊ฐ€ ์–ด๋””๋ฅผ ํ–ฅํ•ด ๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜ ์ง€ํ–ฅ์  ๋น„์ „์ด ์—†์–ด์š”.
07:09
Almost everywhere, you see retrograde vision:
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๊ฑฐ์˜ ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ณณ์—์„œ ํ‡ด๋ณด์ ์ธ ๋น„์ „์ด ๋ณด์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:13
"Let's make America great again,"
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"๋ฏธ๊ตญ์„ ๋‹ค์‹œ ์œ„๋Œ€ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“ค์ž"
07:15
like it was great -- I don't know -- in the '50s, in the '80s, sometime,
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์ž˜ ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์ง€๋งŒ 50๋…„๋Œ€๋‚˜ 80๋…„๋Œ€์— ์–ธ์  ๊ฐ€ ์œ„๋Œ€ํ–ˆ๋˜ ๊ฒƒ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ
07:18
let's go back there.
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๊ทธ ๋•Œ๋กœ ๋‹ค์‹œ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์ž.
07:19
And you go to Russia a hundred years after Lenin,
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๋ ˆ๋‹Œ ์‚ฌํ›„ 100๋…„ ๋’ค์˜ ๋Ÿฌ์‹œ์•„๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋ฉด
07:24
Putin's vision for the future
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ํ‘ธํ‹ด์˜ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋น„์ „์€
07:26
is basically, ah, let's go back to the Tsarist empire.
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์ „์ฒด์ •์น˜๋กœ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์ž๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:29
And in Israel, where I come from,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ œ ๋‚˜๋ผ์ธ ์ด์Šค๋ผ์—˜์—์„œ๋Š”
07:32
the hottest political vision of the present is:
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ํ˜„์žฌ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ์ธ๊ธฐ์žˆ๋Š” ์ •์น˜์  ๋น„์ „์ด
07:35
"Let's build the temple again."
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"์„ฑ์ „์„ ๋‹ค์‹œ ์ง“์ž"์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:37
So let's go back 2,000 years backwards.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ 2000๋…„ ์ „์œผ๋กœ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์ž๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
07:40
So people are thinking sometime in the past we've lost it,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ž๊ธฐ๊ฐ€ ๊ณผ๊ฑฐ ์–ด๋””์—์„ ๊ฐ€
07:45
and sometimes in the past, it's like you've lost your way in the city,
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๋‚ด ๋„์‹œ์—์„œ ๊ธธ์„ ์žƒ์–ด๋ฒ„๋ ธ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ณ 
07:48
and you say OK, let's go back to the point where I felt secure
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ '์ข‹์•„, ๋‚ด๊ฐ€ ์•ˆ์ •๊ฐ์„ ๋Š๊ผˆ๋˜ ๋•Œ๋กœ ๋‹ค์‹œ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์„œ ๋‹ค์‹œ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•˜์ž'
07:51
and start again.
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๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:53
I don't think this can work,
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์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์—” ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์—†์„ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
07:54
but a lot of people, this is their gut instinct.
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ด ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์„ ์ง๊ฐ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:57
CA: But why couldn't it work?
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์™œ ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋‚˜์š”?
07:59
"America First" is a very appealing slogan in many ways.
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"๋ฏธ๊ตญ ์šฐ์„ "์€ ๋งŽ์€ ๋ฉด์—์„œ ๋งค์šฐ ๋งค๋ ฅ์ ์ธ ์Šฌ๋กœ๊ฑด์ธ๋ฐ์š”.
08:03
Patriotism is, in many ways, a very noble thing.
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์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ๋„ ๋งŽ์€ ๋ฉด์—์„œ ์ˆญ๊ณ ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ณ ์š”.
08:07
It's played a role in promoting cooperation
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๋‹ค์ˆ˜์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค ์‚ฌ์ด์—์„œ ํ˜‘๋ ฅ์„ ์ด๋Œ์–ด๋‚ด๋Š” ๋ฐ
08:09
among large numbers of people.
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ํ•œ ์—ญํ• ์„ ํ–ˆ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
08:11
Why couldn't you have a world organized in countries,
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๊ฐ์ž๊ฐ€ ์ž์‹ ์„ ์šฐ์„ ์œผ๋กœ ๋†“๋Š” ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋กœ ์ด๋ฃจ์–ด์ง„ ์„ธ๊ณ„๊ฐ€
08:15
all of which put themselves first?
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์™œ ์žˆ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋‚˜์š”?
08:19
YNH: For many centuries, even thousands of years,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ˆ˜์„ธ๊ธฐ ๋™์•ˆ, ์‹ฌ์ง€์–ด ์ˆ˜์ฒœ ๋…„ ๋™์•ˆ
08:22
patriotism worked quite well.
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์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ์€ ์ž˜ ๋จนํ˜”์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:25
Of course, it led to wars an so forth,
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๋ฌผ๋ก  ์ „์Ÿ ๋“ฑ์„ ์ดˆ๋ž˜ํ•˜๊ธด ํ–ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
08:27
but we shouldn't focus too much on the bad.
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๋ถ€์ •์ ์ธ ๊ฒƒ์—๋งŒ ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ์ดˆ์ ์„ ๋งž์ถ”๋ฉด ์•ˆ ๋˜์ฃ .
08:30
There are also many, many positive things about patriotism,
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์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ์—๋Š” ๋งŽ์€ ๊ธ์ •์ ์ธ ๋ถ€๋ถ„์ด ์žˆ๊ณ 
08:33
and the ability to have a large number of people
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์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ์€ ๋‹ค์ˆ˜์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์„œ๋กœ์—๊ฒŒ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ณ 
08:37
care about each other,
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์„œ๋กœ ๊ณต๊ฐํ•˜๊ณ 
08:39
sympathize with one another,
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์ง‘๋‹จ์ ์ธ ํ–‰๋™์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ํ˜‘๋ ฅํ•˜๊ฒŒ ํ•˜๋Š” ํž˜์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
08:40
and come together for collective action.
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08:43
If you go back to the first nations,
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์ตœ์ดˆ์˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋˜ ๋•Œ๋กœ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€๋ฉด
08:46
so, thousands of years ago,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ˆ˜์ฒœ ๋…„ ์ „์œผ๋กœ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€๋ฉด
08:48
the people who lived along the Yellow River in China --
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์ค‘๊ตญ ํ™ฉํ•˜์— ์‚ด์•˜๋˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€
08:51
it was many, many different tribes
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๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ๋ถ€์กฑ์„ ์ด๋ฃจ๊ณ  ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:54
and they all depended on the river for survival and for prosperity,
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๋ชจ๋‘๋“ค ์ƒ์กด๊ณผ ๋ฒˆ์˜์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ๊ฐ•์— ์˜์กดํ•ด ์‚ด์•˜์ง€๋งŒ
08:58
but all of them also suffered from periodical floods
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๋ชจ๋‘๋“ค ์ฃผ๊ธฐ์ ์ธ ํ™์ˆ˜์™€ ๊ฐ€๋ญ„์œผ๋กœ ์ธํ•ด
09:03
and periodical droughts.
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๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›๊ธฐ๋„ ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:04
And no tribe could really do anything about it,
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์–ด๋–ค ๋ถ€์กฑ๋„ ์ด๊ฑธ ๋”ฑํžˆ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ์ˆ˜๊ฐ€ ์—†์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
09:07
because each of them controlled just a tiny section of the river.
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๊ฐ์ž ๊ฐ•์˜ ์ž‘์€ ๊ตฌ์—ญ๋งŒ ํ†ต์ œํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์—ˆ๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ด์ฃ .
09:11
And then in a long and complicated process,
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๊ธธ๊ณ  ๋ณต์žกํ•œ ๊ณผ์ •์„ ๊ฑฐ์ณ
09:14
the tribes coalesced together to form the Chinese nation,
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๋ถ€์กฑ๋“ค์€ ์—ฐํ•ฉํ•˜์—ฌ ์ค‘๊ตญ์„ ์„ธ์› ๊ณ 
09:18
which controlled the entire Yellow River
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์ค‘๊ตญ์€ ํ™ฉํ•˜ ์ „์ฒด์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๊ถŒ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ฒŒ ๋˜์—ˆ๊ณ 
09:21
and had the ability to bring hundreds of thousands of people together
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๊ฐ•๋ฌผ์„ ์กฐ์ ˆํ•˜๊ณ  ์ตœ์•…์˜ ํ™์ˆ˜์™€ ๊ฐ€๋ญ„์„ ์˜ˆ๋ฐฉํ•˜๊ณ 
09:26
to build dams and canals and regulate the river
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๋Œ๊ณผ ์šดํ•˜๋ฅผ ๊ฑด์„คํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ ์ˆ˜์‹ญ๋งŒ ๋ช…์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์„
09:31
and prevent the worst floods and droughts
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๋™์›ํ•  ํž˜์„ ๊ฐ–๊ฒŒ ๋˜์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:34
and raise the level of prosperity for everybody.
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ชจ๋‘์—๊ฒŒ ๋” ํฐ ๋ฒˆ์˜์„ ๊ฐ€์ ธ๋‹ค ์ค„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์—ˆ์ฃ .
09:37
And this worked in many places around the world.
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์ด ๋ฐฉ์‹์€ ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋งŽ์€ ์ง€์—ญ์—์„œ ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:40
But in the 21st century,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ 21์„ธ๊ธฐ์—๋Š”
09:43
technology is changing all that in a fundamental way.
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๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ด ์ด ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์„ ๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ฐ”๊พธ๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:46
We are now living -- all people in the world --
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๋ชจ๋“  ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ด์ œ
09:49
are living alongside the same cyber river,
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๊ฐ™์€ ์‚ฌ์ด๋ฒ„ ๊ฐ•์˜ ์ฃผ๋ณ€์— ์‚ด๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:53
and no single nation can regulate this river by itself.
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๊ทธ ์–ด๋–ค ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋„ ํ˜ผ์ž์„œ ์ด ๊ฐ•์„ ํ†ต์ œํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:58
We are all living together on a single planet,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๋ชจ๋‘ ํ•œ ํ–‰์„ฑ์— ๊ฐ™์ด ์‚ด๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ณ 
10:02
which is threatened by our own actions.
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ํ–‰์„ฑ์€ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ํ–‰์œ„์— ์œ„ํ˜‘์„ ๋ฐ›์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:05
And if you don't have some kind of global cooperation,
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์–ด๋– ํ•œ ํ˜•ํƒœ์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ˜‘๋ ฅ์ด ์—†์œผ๋ฉด
10:09
nationalism is just not on the right level to tackle the problems,
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๊ธฐํ›„ ๋ณ€ํ™”๊ฐ€ ๋ฌธ์ œ์ด๋“  ๊ธฐ์ˆ  ํ˜์‹ ์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ์ด๋“ 
10:14
whether it's climate change or whether it's technological disruption.
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋Š” ๋ฌธ์ œ ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ์ ํ•ฉํ•œ ์ˆ˜์ค€์— ์žˆ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:19
CA: So it was a beautiful idea
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์˜ ํ™œ๋™์™€ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋“ค์ด
10:21
in a world where most of the action, most of the issues,
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€ ์ˆ˜์ค€์˜ ๊ทœ๋ชจ๋กœ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๋Š” ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ๋Š”
10:25
took place on national scale,
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๋ฉ‹์ง„ ์ƒ๊ฐ์ด์—ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
10:28
but your argument is that the issues that matter most today
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์œ ๋ฐœ์˜ ์ฃผ์žฅ์€ ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์ œ์ผ ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ํ™”์ œ๋“ค์€ ๋” ์ด์ƒ
10:30
no longer take place on a national scale but on a global scale.
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์  ๊ทœ๋ชจ๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹Œ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ๊ทœ๋ชจ๋กœ ์ผ์–ด๋‚œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๋ง์”€์ด๊ตฐ์š”.
10:34
YNH: Exactly. All the major problems of the world today
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋งž์•„์š”. ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์„ธ๊ณ„์˜ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ฃผ์š” ๋ฌธ์ œ๋“ค์€
10:37
are global in essence,
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๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์ธ ๋ฌธ์ œ์˜ˆ์š”.
10:40
and they cannot be solved
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์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ˜‘๋ ฅ ์—†์ด๋Š” ํ•ด๊ฒฐ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:41
unless through some kind of global cooperation.
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10:45
It's not just climate change,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ฐ€์žฅ ๋ป”ํ•˜๊ฒŒ
10:47
which is, like, the most obvious example people give.
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์˜ˆ์‹œ๋กœ ๋“œ๋Š” ๊ธฐํ›„ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋งŒ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
10:50
I think more in terms of technological disruption.
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์ €๋Š” ์ข€ ๋” ๊ธฐ์ˆ  ํ˜์‹ ์— ์ž…๊ฐํ•ด์„œ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:54
If you think about, for example, artificial intelligence,
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์ผ๋ก€๋กœ ์ธ๊ณต ์ง€๋Šฅ์„ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด
10:57
over the next 20, 30 years
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์•ž์œผ๋กœ 2, 30๋…„ ๋™์•ˆ
11:00
pushing hundreds of millions of people out of the job market --
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์ˆ˜ ์–ต๋ช…์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ์žƒ๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“ค๊ฒƒ์ด๊ณ 
11:04
this is a problem on a global level.
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์ด๊ฑด ๊ตญ์ œ์ ์ธ ๋ฌธ์ œ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:06
It will disrupt the economy of all the countries.
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๋ชจ๋“  ๋‚˜๋ผ์˜ ๊ฒฝ์ œ๋ฅผ ํŒŒ๊ดดํ•  ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
11:09
And similarly, if you think about, say, bioengineering
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋˜‘๊ฐ™์ด ์ƒ๋ช… ๊ณตํ•™์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด
11:13
and people being afraid of conducting,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ด๊ฑธ ์—ฐ๊ตฌํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑธ ๋‘๋ ค์›Œํ•˜๋Š”๋ฐ
11:16
I don't know, genetic engineering research in humans,
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์ธ๊ฐ„์˜ ์œ ์ „์ž ๊ณตํ•™์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์—ฐ๊ตฌ๋Š”
11:19
it won't help if just a single country, let's say the US,
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ํ•œ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋งŒ, ์˜ˆ๋ฅผ ๋“ค๋ฉด ๋ฏธ๊ตญ๋งŒ, ์ธ๊ฐ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์œ ์ „์ž ์‹คํ—˜์„ ๊ธˆ์ง€ํ•˜๊ณ 
11:24
outlaws all genetic experiments in humans,
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์ค‘๊ตญ์ด๋‚˜ ๋ถํ•œ์€ ๊ณ„์†ํ•˜๋ฉด
11:27
but China or North Korea continues to do it.
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๋„์›€์ด ๋˜์ง€ ์•Š์„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:31
So the US cannot solve it by itself,
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์€ ํ˜ผ์ž์„œ๋Š” ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์—†๊ณ 
11:34
and very quickly, the pressure on the US to do the same will be immense
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๋ฏธ๊ตญ๋„ ๋˜‘๊ฐ™์ด ์—ฐ๊ตฌ๋ฅผ ํ•ด์•ผํ•˜๋Š” ๋ถ€๋‹ด์€ ๋งค์šฐ ๋น ๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ์ปค์งˆ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:39
because we are talking about high-risk, high-gain technologies.
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์œ„ํ—˜๋„ ๋†’๊ณ  ์ˆ˜์ต๋„ ๋†’์€ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ด๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
11:44
If somebody else is doing it, I can't allow myself to remain behind.
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๋‚จ๋“ค์ด ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด ๋‚˜๋„ ๋’ค์ณ์ ธ์žˆ์„ ์ˆ˜๋Š” ์—†์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
11:48
The only way to have regulations, effective regulations,
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์…๋ช…๊ณตํ•™๊ณผ ๊ฐ™์€ ๋ถ€๋ถ„์— ์žˆ์–ด์„œ
11:54
on things like genetic engineering,
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ํšจ๊ณผ์ ์ธ ๊ทœ์ œ๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•œ ์œ ์ผํ•œ ๋ฐฉ์•ˆ์€
11:56
is to have global regulations.
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๊ตญ์ œ์ ์ธ ๊ทœ์ œ๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:58
If you just have national regulations, nobody would like to stay behind.
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ ์ธ ๊ทœ์ œ๋งŒ ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉด ์•„๋ฌด๋„ ๋’ค์ฒ˜์ง€๋Š” ๊ฑธ ์ข‹์•„ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
12:03
CA: So this is really interesting.
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๋งค์šฐ ํฅ๋ฏธ๋กญ๋„ค์š”.
12:05
It seems to me that this may be one key
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๊ฐ์ž ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ž…์žฅ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ƒ๋Œ€๋“ค์ด
12:07
to provoking at least a constructive conversation
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๊ฑด์„ค์ ์ธ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ์‹œ์ž‘์ด๋ผ๋„ ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š” ๋ฐ
12:11
between the different sides here,
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์œ ์ผํ•œ ์—ด์‡ ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ๋Š๊ปด์ ธ์š”.
12:12
because I think everyone can agree that the start point
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ์—ฌ๊ธฐ๋กœ ์˜ค๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“  ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์˜ ๋ถ„๋…ธ์˜ ์‹œ์ž‘์ ์ด
12:16
of a lot of the anger that's propelled us to where we are
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์‹ค์ง์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ทผ๊ฑฐ์žˆ๋Š” ์šฐ๋ ค๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์—
12:18
is because of the legitimate concerns about job loss.
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๋ชจ๋‘๋“ค ๋™์˜ํ•  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:21
Work is gone, a traditional way of life has gone,
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์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์‚ฌ๋ผ์กŒ๊ณ , ์ „ํ†ต์ ์ธ ์‚ถ์˜ ๋ฐฉ์‹๋„ ์‚ฌ๋ผ์กŒ์–ด์š”.
12:25
and it's no wonder that people are furious about that.
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์— ๋ถ„๋…ธํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์ด์ƒํ•œ ์ผ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ์ฃ .
12:28
And in general, they have blamed globalism, global elites,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ํ—ˆ๋ฝ๋„ ์—†์ด ๋ณธ์ธ์—๊ฒŒ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ์ง“์„ ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
12:33
for doing this to them without asking their permission,
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์ „๋ฐ˜์ ์œผ๋กœ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์™€ ์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ง€๋„์ž๋“ค์„ ํƒ“ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
12:35
and that seems like a legitimate complaint.
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์ด๊ฒƒ๋„ ์ •๋‹นํ•œ ๋ถˆ๋งŒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
12:38
But what I hear you saying is that -- so a key question is:
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๊ธฐ๋กœ๋Š” ์œ ๋ฐœ ์”จ์˜ ํ•ต์‹ฌ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์€
12:41
What is the real cause of job loss, both now and going forward?
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ํ˜„์žฌ์™€ ์•ž์œผ๋กœ์˜ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์˜ ์‹ค์—…์˜ ์ง„์งœ ์›์ธ์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ๊ฐ€์ฃ ?
12:46
To the extent that it's about globalism,
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์–ด๋Š ์ •๋„ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™” ํƒ“์ด๋ผ๋ฉด
12:49
then the right response, yes, is to shut down borders
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์ ํ•ฉํ•œ ๋Œ€์‘์€ ๊ตญ๊ฒฝ์„ ํ์‡„ํ•˜๊ณ , ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์„ ๋“ค์–ด์˜ค์ง€ ๋ชปํ•˜๊ฒŒ ํ•˜๊ณ 
12:53
and keep people out and change trade agreements and so forth.
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๋ฌด์—ญ ํ˜‘์ •์„ ์ˆ˜์ •ํ•˜๋Š” ๋“ฑ๋“ฑ์ด๊ฒ ์ฃ .
12:57
But you're saying, I think,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์— ์œ ๋ฐœ ์”จ ๋ง์”€์€
12:59
that actually the bigger cause of job loss is not going to be that at all.
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์‹ค์ œ๋กœ ์‹ค์—…์˜ ๋” ํฐ ์›์ธ์€ ์ „ํ˜€ ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์ฃ .
13:04
It's going to originate in technological questions,
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๊ธฐ์ˆ ์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ๋“ค์—์„œ ์ดˆ๋ž˜๋  ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ณ 
13:07
and we have no chance of solving that
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์„ธ๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์›€์ง์ด์ง€ ์•Š์œผ๋ฉด
13:09
unless we operate as a connected world.
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ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด ์—†๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
13:11
YNH: Yeah, I think that,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค. ์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์—๋Š”
13:13
I don't know about the present, but looking to the future,
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ํ˜„์žฌ์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ๊ฑด ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์ง€๋งŒ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜๋ฅผ ๋‚ด๋‹ค๋ดค์„ ๋•
13:16
it's not the Mexicans or Chinese who will take the jobs
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ํŽœ์‹ค๋ฒ ๋‹ˆ์•„์— ์‚ฌ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ฉ•์‹œ์ฝ”์ธ์ด๋‚˜ ์ค‘๊ตญ์ธ์—๊ฒŒ
13:19
from the people in Pennsylvania,
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์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋นผ์•—๊ธฐ๊ฒŒ ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
13:21
it's the robots and algorithms.
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๋กœ๋ด‡๊ณผ ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์— ๋บ๊ธธ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:23
So unless you plan to build a big wall on the border of California --
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์บ˜๋ฆฌํฌ๋‹ˆ์•„ ๊ตญ๊ฒฝ์— ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์žฅ๋ฒฝ์„ ์„ธ์šธ ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๋ฉด
13:27
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
13:28
the wall on the border with Mexico is going to be very ineffective.
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๋ฉ•์‹œ์ฝ” ๊ตญ๊ฒฝ์— ์„ธ์šฐ๋Š” ๋ฒฝ์€ ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ๋งค์šฐ ์—†์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
13:32
And I was struck when I watched the debates before the election,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ €๋Š” ๋Œ€์„  ์ „์— ํ† ๋ก ์„ ๋ณด๋ฉด์„œ ๋†€๋ž๋˜ ์ ์ด
13:38
I was struck that certainly Trump did not even attempt to frighten people
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ํŠธ๋Ÿผํ”„๊ฐ€ ๋กœ๋ด‡์ด ๊ทธ๋“ค์˜ ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋นผ์•—์„ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๋Š” ๋ง๋กœ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์„ ๊ฒ์ฃผ๋ ค๊ณ ๋„
13:44
by saying the robots will take your jobs.
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ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:47
Now even if it's not true, it doesn't matter.
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์ด ๋ง์ด ์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ž˜๋„ ์ƒ๊ด€ ์—†์–ด์š”.
13:49
It could have been an extremely effective way of frightening people --
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์„ ๊ฒ์ฃผ๊ณ  ์ž๊ทนํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ ์•„์ฃผ ํšจ๊ณผ์ ์ธ
13:52
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
13:53
and galvanizing people:
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๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์ด์—ˆ์„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:55
"The robots will take your jobs!"
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"๋กœ๋ด‡์ด ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋บ์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”!"
13:56
And nobody used that line.
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์•„๋ฌด๋„ ์ด ๋Œ€์‚ฌ๋ฅผ ์“ฐ์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์–ด์š”.
13:58
And it made me afraid,
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ €๋Š” ๋‘๋ ค์›Œ์กŒ์–ด์š”.
14:00
because it meant that no matter what happens
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์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ด๊ฒŒ ์˜๋ฏธํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ”๋Š”, ๋Œ€ํ•™๊ณผ ์—ฐ๊ตฌ์‹ค์—์„œ๋Š”
14:04
in universities and laboratories,
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์ด๋ฏธ ์ด๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋…ผ์˜๊ฐ€
14:07
and there, there is already an intense debate about it,
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์น˜์—ดํ•˜๊ฒŒ ์ง„ํ–‰๋˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์ง€๋งŒ
14:09
but in the mainstream political system and among the general public,
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์ฃผ๋ฅ˜ ์ •์น˜ ๋‚ด์—์„œ์™€ ๋Œ€์ค‘๋“ค์€ 200๋…„๊นŒ์ง€๋„ ์•„๋‹ˆ๊ณ 
14:13
people are just unaware
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10, 20, 30๋…„ ์•ˆ์—
14:16
that there could be an immense technological disruption --
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๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์  ๋ณ€๋™์ด ์ผ์–ด๋‚  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ
14:20
not in 200 years, but in 10, 20, 30 years --
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๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
14:24
and we have to do something about it now,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๋ฌด์Šจ ๋Œ€์ฑ…์„ ์„ธ์›Œ์•ผ ํ•ด์š”.
14:27
partly because most of what we teach children today in school or in college
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ํ•™๊ต๋‚˜ ๋Œ€ํ•™์—์„œ ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ๊ฐ€๋ฅด์น˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์˜ ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์€ 2040, 2050๋…„์˜
14:33
is going to be completely irrelevant to the job market of 2040, 2050.
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๋…ธ๋™์‹œ์žฅ์—์„œ๋Š” ์™„์ „ํžˆ ๋ฌด์šฉ์ง€๋ฌผ์ด ๋  ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ธ ์ด์œ ๋„ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:39
So it's not something we'll need to think about in 2040.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ 2040๋…„์— ๊ณ ๋ฏผํ•  ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹Œ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
14:43
We need to think today what to teach the young people.
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์ Š์€์ด๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋ญ˜ ๊ฐ€๋ฅด์น ์ง€ ์ง€๊ธˆ ๊ณ ๋ฏผํ•ด์•ผ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:46
CA: Yeah, no, absolutely.
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๋„ค, ์ •๋ง ๊ทธ๋ž˜์š”.
14:50
You've often written about moments in history
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์œ ๋ฐœ์€ ์—ญ์‚ฌ ์†์—์„œ ์ธ๋ฅ˜๊ฐ€ ๋œปํ•˜์ง€๋„ ์•Š๊ฒŒ
14:54
where humankind has ... entered a new era, unintentionally.
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์ƒˆ ์‹œ๋Œ€๋ฅผ ๋งž์ดํ–ˆ๋˜ ์ˆœ๊ฐ„๋“ค์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„œ๋„ ์“ฐ์…จ์–ด์š”.
15:01
Decisions have been made, technologies have been developed,
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๊ฒฐ์ •์ด ๋‚ด๋ ค์ง€๊ณ , ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ด ๋ฐœ๋‹ฌ๋˜๊ณ 
15:04
and suddenly the world has changed,
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์„ธ๊ณ„๋Š” ๊ฐ‘์ž‘์Šค๋Ÿฝ๊ฒŒ ๋ณ€ํ–ˆ์ฃ .
15:06
possibly in a way that's worse for everyone.
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๋ชจ๋‘์—๊ฒŒ ๋” ์•ˆ ์ข‹์€ ํ˜•ํƒœ๋กœ์š”.
15:09
So one of the examples you give in "Sapiens"
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"์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค" ์ฑ…์— ์“ฐ์‹  ์˜ˆ์‹œ ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜๋กœ
15:11
is just the whole agricultural revolution,
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๋†์—ฝ ํ˜๋ช…์ด ์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ์š”,
15:13
which, for an actual person tilling the fields,
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๋•…์„ ๊ฒฝ์ž‘ํ•˜๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€
15:17
they just picked up a 12-hour backbreaking workday
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6์‹œ๊ฐ„๋™์•ˆ ์ •๊ธ€์— ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉด์„œ ๋” ์žฌ๋ฏธ์žˆ๋Š” ์‚ถ์„ ์‚ด๊ธฐ๋ณด๋‹ค
15:20
instead of six hours in the jungle and a much more interesting lifestyle.
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๋“ฑ๊ณจ์ด ๋ถ€์„œ์ง€๋„๋ก ํ•˜๋ฃจ์— 12์‹œ๊ฐ„์„ ์ผํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋์ฃ .
15:26
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
15:27
So are we at another possible phase change here,
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์šฐ๋ฆฐ ์ง€๊ธˆ ์‚ฌ์‹ค ์•„๋ฌด๋„ ์›์น˜ ์•Š๋Š” ๋ฏธ๋ž˜๋กœ ๋ชฝ์œ ๋ณ‘ ํ™˜์ž์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ๊ฑธ์–ด๋“ค์–ด๊ฐ€๋Š”
15:30
where we kind of sleepwalk into a future that none of us actually wants?
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๋˜ ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ๋ณ€ํ™” ์‹œ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋งˆ์ฃผํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”๊ฑด๊ฐ€์š”?
15:35
YNH: Yes, very much so.
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ๋งค์šฐ ๊ทธ๋ž˜์š”.
15:38
During the agricultural revolution,
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๋†์—… ํ˜๋ช… ์‹œ๊ธฐ์—๋Š”
15:40
what happened is that immense technological and economic revolution
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๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ , ๊ฒฝ์ œ์  ํ˜๋ช…์ด ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜์„œ
15:44
empowered the human collective,
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์ „์ฒด์ ์œผ๋กœ๋Š” ์ธ๊ฐ„๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ํž˜์„ ์ฃผ์—ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
15:47
but when you look at actual individual lives,
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๊ฐœ๊ฐœ์ธ์˜ ์‹ค์ œ ์‚ถ์„ ๋“ค์—ฌ๋‹ค๋ณด๋ฉด
15:50
the life of a tiny elite became much better,
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์†Œ์ˆ˜ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ์˜ ์‚ถ์€ ํ›จ์”ฌ ๋‚˜์•„์กŒ์ง€๋งŒ
15:54
and the lives of the majority of people became considerably worse.
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๋‹ค์ˆ˜์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์˜ ์‚ถ์€ ์ƒ๋‹นํžˆ ์•…ํ™”๋˜์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
15:58
And this can happen again in the 21st century.
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ์ผ์ด 21์„ธ๊ธฐ์— ๋‹ค์‹œ ์ผ์–ด๋‚  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
16:01
No doubt the new technologies will empower the human collective.
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์ƒˆ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์€ ์˜์‹ฌํ•  ์—ฌ์ง€์—†์ด ์ธ๋ฅ˜ ์ „์ฒด์— ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ํž˜์„ ๊ฐ€์ ธ๋‹ค ์ค„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
16:06
But we may end up again
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๋˜ ๋‹ค์‹œ
16:08
with a tiny elite reaping all the benefits, taking all the fruits,
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์†Œ์ˆ˜ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ๊ฐ€ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ด๋“๊ณผ ๊ฒฐ์‹ค์„ ๊ฑฐ๋‘์–ด๊ฐ€๊ณ 
16:13
and the masses of the population finding themselves worse
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๋Œ€๋‹ค์ˆ˜์˜ ๋Œ€์ค‘์€ ์˜ˆ์ „๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ข‹์ง€ ์•Š์€
16:17
than they were before,
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์ƒํ™ฉ์— ๋†“์ด๊ฒŒ ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
16:18
certainly much worse than this tiny elite.
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๋ฌผ๋ก  ์†Œ์ˆ˜ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ๋‚˜์˜๊ฒŒ์š”.
16:22
CA: And those elites might not even be human elites.
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ฒŒ๋‹ค๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ๋“ค์€ ์ธ๊ฐ„๋„ ์•„๋‹ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
16:25
They might be cyborgs or --
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์‚ฌ์ด๋ณด๊ทธ์ผ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ๊ณ 
16:26
YNH: Yeah, they could be enhanced super humans.
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ๊ฐœ๋Ÿ‰๋œ ์Šˆํผ ์ธ๊ฐ„์ผ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์ฃ .
16:29
They could be cyborgs.
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์‚ฌ์ด๋ณด๊ทธ์ผ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
16:30
They could be completely nonorganic elites.
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์ƒ๋ช…์ด ์—†๋Š” ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ์ผ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ๊ณ 
16:32
They could even be non-conscious algorithms.
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์˜์‹์ด ์—†๋Š” ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์ผ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
16:35
What we see now in the world is authority shifting away
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ๋ชฉ๊ฒฉ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฑด ์ธ๊ฐ„์—๊ฒŒ์„œ ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์œผ๋กœ
16:40
from humans to algorithms.
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๊ถŒํ•œ์ด ์˜ฎ๊ฒจ๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
16:42
More and more decisions -- about personal lives,
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์‚ฌ์ ์ธ ์‚ถ์ด๋‚˜, ๊ฒฝ์ œ์ , ์ •์น˜์  ๋ฌธ์ œ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด
16:46
about economic matters, about political matters --
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์ ์  ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ์˜์‚ฌ๊ฒฐ์ •์ด
16:48
are actually being taken by algorithms.
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์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์—๊ฒŒ ๋„˜์–ด๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
16:51
If you ask the bank for a loan,
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์ด ์€ํ–‰์— ๋Œ€์ถœ์„ ์‹ ์ฒญํ•˜๋ฉด
16:54
chances are your fate is decided by an algorithm, not by a human being.
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์˜ ์šด๋ช…์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ์•„๋‹Œ ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์— ์˜ํ•ด ๊ฒฐ์ •๋  ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
16:58
And the general impression is that maybe Homo sapiens just lost it.
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ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค๊ฐ€ ๊ถŒํ•œ์„ ์žƒ์–ด๋ฒ„๋ ธ์„ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์ผ๋ฐ˜์ ์ธ ์ธ์‹์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
17:04
The world is so complicated, there is so much data,
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์„ธ์ƒ์€ ๋งค์šฐ ๋ณต์žกํ•˜๊ณ  ์ •๋ณด์˜ ์–‘๋„ ๋ฐฉ๋Œ€ํ•ด์š”.
17:09
things are changing so fast,
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๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒŒ ๋น ๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ๋ณ€ํ™”ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
17:12
that this thing that evolved on the African savanna
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์ˆ˜๋งŒ ๋…„ ์ „์— ์•„ํ”„๋ฆฌ์นด ์‚ฌ๋ฐ”๋‚˜์—์„œ
17:15
tens of thousands of years ago --
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ํŠน์ • ํ™˜๊ฒฝ์— ๋Œ€์‘ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด
17:17
to cope with a particular environment,
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์–ด๋–ค ์–‘์˜ ์ •๋ณด์™€ ๋ฐ์ดํ„ฐ๋ฅผ
17:20
a particular volume of information and data --
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์ฒ˜๋ฆฌํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด ๋ฐœ๋‹ฌ๋œ ๊ฒƒ์ด
17:24
it just can't handle the realities of the 21st century,
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21์„ธ๊ธฐ์˜ ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ๊ฐ๋‹นํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
17:28
and the only thing that may be able to handle it
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์ด๊ฑธ ๊ฐ๋‹นํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„๋งŒํ•œ ์œ ์ผํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์€
17:31
is big-data algorithms.
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๋น…๋ฐ์ดํ„ฐ ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
17:33
So no wonder more and more authority is shifting from us to the algorithms.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ๊ถŒํ•œ์ด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒŒ์„œ ์•Œ๊ณ ๋ฆฌ์ฆ˜์œผ๋กœ ์˜ฎ๊ฒจ๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ๋ฐ–์— ์—†์ฃ .
17:40
CA: So we're in New York City for the first of a series of TED Dialogues
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ €ํฌ๋Š” ์ง€๊ธˆ ๋‰ด์š•์—์„œ TED๋Œ€ํ™” ์‹œ๋ฆฌ์ฆˆ์˜ ์ฒซ ํŽธ์„ ๋ฐฉ์†ก์ค‘์ด๊ณ 
17:44
with Yuval Harari,
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์œ ๋ฐœ ํ•˜๋ผ๋ฆฌ์™€ ํ•จ๊ป˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
17:46
and there's a Facebook Live audience out there.
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ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์ƒ๋ฐฉ์†ก ์‹œ์ฒญ์ž๋“ค์ด ๊ณ„์‹ ๋ฐ์š”.
17:50
We're excited to have you with us.
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ํ•จ๊ป˜ ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋˜์–ด ์ •๋ง ๊ธฐ์ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
17:52
We'll start coming to some of your questions
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์ƒ๋ฐฉ์†ก ์‹œ์ฒญ์ž๋ถ„๋“ค๊ณผ ๋ฐฉ ์•ˆ์˜ ์ฒญ์ค‘๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ์„œ
17:54
and questions of people in the room
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๋ช‡ ๋ถ„ ๋’ค๋ถ€ํ„ฐ
17:56
in just a few minutes,
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์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋ฐ›๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ• ํ…Œ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ
17:57
so have those coming.
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์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ์ค€๋น„ํ•ด์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
17:59
Yuval, if you're going to make the argument
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์œ ๋ฐœ, ํ˜„์žฌ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ๋“ค์—์„œ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋“ฏ์ด
18:03
that we need to get past nationalism because of the coming technological ...
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๋‹ค๊ฐ€์˜ค๋Š” ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ ์ธ... ์œ„ํ—˜์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒ ์ฃ ,
18:11
danger, in a way,
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๊ธฐ์ˆ ์  ์œ„ํ—˜ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
18:12
presented by so much of what's happening
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋ฅผ ๋„˜์–ด์„œ์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ฃผ์žฅํ•˜์‹ค๊ฑฐ๋ฉด
18:14
we've got to have a global conversation about this.
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์ด๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๊ตญ์ œ์ ์ธ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€์ ธ์•ผ ํ•  ํ•„์š”๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
18:17
Trouble is, it's hard to get people really believing that, I don't know,
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๋ฌธ์ œ๋Š”, ์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ์ด ์ •๋ง ์‹œ๊ธ‰ํ•œ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ ๋“ฑ์„
18:20
AI really is an imminent threat, and so forth.
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๋ฏฟ๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์–ด๋ ต๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
18:22
The things that people, some people at least,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค ์ค‘ ์ ์–ด๋„ ์ผ๋ถ€๊ฐ€
18:25
care about much more immediately, perhaps,
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๋‹น์žฅ ๊ฑฑ์ •ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์€ ์•„๋งˆ
18:27
is climate change,
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๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”๋‚˜
18:29
perhaps other issues like refugees, nuclear weapons, and so forth.
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๋‚œ๋ฏผ๊ณผ ํ•ต๋ฌด๊ธฐ ๋“ฑ์˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋ฌธ์ œ์ผ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
18:34
Would you argue that where we are right now
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์ €ํฌ๊ฐ€ ์„œ์žˆ๋Š” ํ˜„์‹œ์ ์—์„œ ์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ๋“ค์ด
18:39
that somehow those issues need to be dialed up?
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๋” ์ฃผ๋ชฉ๋ฐ›์•„์•ผํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
18:42
You've talked about climate change,
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์œ ๋ฐœ ์”จ๋Š” ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์–˜๊ธฐํ•˜์…จ์ง€๋งŒ
18:45
but Trump has said he doesn't believe in that.
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ํŠธ๋Ÿผํ”„๋Š” ์ž๊ธด ๊ทธ๊ฑธ ๋ฏฟ์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋งํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
18:48
So in a way, your most powerful argument,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์–ด์ฐŒ ๋ณด๋ฉด ์œ ๋ฐœ์˜ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ๊ฐ•๋ ฅํ•œ ๋…ผ๊ฑฐ๋ฅผ
18:51
you can't actually use to make this case.
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๋ณธ์ธ์˜ ์ฃผ์žฅ์„ ์ž…์ฆํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ ์“ธ ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋Š” ๊ฒƒ ์•„๋‹Œ๊ฐ€์š”?
18:54
YNH: Yeah, I think with climate change,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”
18:56
at first sight, it's quite surprising
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์™€ ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”๊ฐ€
18:59
that there is a very close correlation
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๋ฐ€์ ‘ํ•œ ์ƒ๊ด€๊ด€๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด
19:02
between nationalism and climate change.
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์ฒ˜์Œ์— ๋“ค์œผ๋ฉด ๋งค์šฐ ๋†€๋ž์ฃ .
19:05
I mean, almost always, the people who deny climate change are nationalists.
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๊ฑฐ์˜ ํ•ญ์ƒ ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ๋ถ€์ •ํ•˜๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์ž๋“ค์ด์—์š”.
19:10
And at first sight, you think: Why?
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์ฒ˜์Œ ๋ณด๋ฉด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€, ์™œ?
19:12
What's the connection?
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๋ฌด์Šจ ๊ด€๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์ง€?
19:13
Why don't you have socialists denying climate change?
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์™œ ์‚ฌํšŒ์ฃผ์˜์ž๋“ค์€ ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ๋ถ€์ •ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์ง€?๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
19:16
But then, when you think about it, it's obvious --
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•ด์š”.
19:18
because nationalism has no solution to climate change.
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋Š” ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ…์„ ๋‚ด๋†“์ง€ ๋ชปํ•˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
19:22
If you want to be a nationalist in the 21st century,
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21์„ธ๊ธฐ์— ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์ž๊ฐ€ ๋˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ๋‹ค๋ฉด
19:25
you have to deny the problem.
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์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ๋ถ€์ •ํ•ด์•ผํ•˜์ฃ .
19:27
If you accept the reality of the problem, then you must accept that, yes,
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์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ํ˜„์‹ค์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ฐ›์•„๋“ค์ธ๋‹ค๋ฉด
19:32
there is still room in the world for patriotism,
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์„ธ์ƒ์—๋Š” ์•„์ง๋„ ์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ์ด ์กด์žฌํ•  ์—ฌ์ง€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๊ณ 
19:35
there is still room in the world for having special loyalties
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ํŠน๋ณ„ํ•œ ์ถฉ์„ฑ์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ , ๋‚ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๊ณผ ์กฐ๊ตญ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์˜๋ฌด๊ฐ์„
19:39
and obligations towards your own people, towards your own country.
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๊ฐ€์งˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ์—ฌ์ง€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๋„ ์ธ์ •ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
19:43
I don't think anybody is really thinking of abolishing that.
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์•„๋ฌด๋„ ๊ทธ๊ฑธ ์—†์• ๋ ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์ง„ ์•Š์„ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
19:47
But in order to confront climate change,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์— ๋Œ€์‘ํ•˜๋ ค๋ฉด
19:50
we need additional loyalties and commitments
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ๋„˜์–ด์„œ๋Š” ์ˆ˜์ค€์˜ ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ์ถฉ์„ฑ๊ณผ ํ—Œ์‹ ์ด ํ•„์š”ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
19:55
to a level beyond the nation.
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19:57
And that should not be impossible,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ ๊ฒน์˜
19:59
because people can have several layers of loyalty.
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์ถฉ์„ฑ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ธฐ์— ์ด๊ฑด ๋ถˆ๊ฐ€๋Šฅํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
20:03
You can be loyal to your family
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๊ฐ€์กฑ์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ์ถฉ์‹คํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ณ 
20:05
and to your community
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์ง€์—ญ์‚ฌํšŒ์—๋„ ์ถฉ์‹คํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ณ 
20:07
and to your nation,
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์—๋„ ์ถฉ์‹คํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉด
20:08
so why can't you also be loyal to humankind as a whole?
384
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์ธ๋ฅ˜ ์ „์ฒด์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ์ถฉ์‹คํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•  ์ด์œ ๋Š” ๋ญ”๊ฐ€์š”?
20:12
Of course, there are occasions when it becomes difficult,
385
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๋ฌผ๋ก  ๋ฌด์—‡์„ ์šฐ์„ ์œผ๋กœ ํ•ด์•ผํ• ์ง€๊ฐ€
20:15
what to put first,
386
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์–ด๋ ค์›Œ์ง€๋Š” ์ƒํ™ฉ๋“ค๋„ ์žˆ์ง€๋งŒ
20:17
but, you know, life is difficult.
387
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๋ญ, ์ธ์ƒ์€ ํž˜๋“  ๊ฑฐ์ž–์•„์š”.
20:19
Handle it.
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๊ฐ๋‹นํ•˜์„ธ์š”.
20:20
(Laughter)
389
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
20:23
CA: OK, so I would love to get some questions from the audience here.
390
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ž, ์ด์ œ ์ฒญ์ค‘๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ์„œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋ช‡ ๊ฐœ ๋ฐ›๊ณ ์‹ถ์–ด์š”.
20:27
We've got a microphone here.
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ ๋งˆ์ดํฌ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
20:29
Speak into it, and Facebook, get them coming, too.
392
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๋งˆ์ดํฌ์— ๋Œ€๊ณ  ๋ง์”€ํ•˜์‹œ๊ณ , ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์‹œ์ฒญ์ž๋ถ„๋“ค๋„ ์ค€๋น„ํ•ด์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
20:32
Howard Morgan: One of the things that has clearly made a huge difference
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ํ•˜์›Œ๋“œ ๋ชจ๊ฑด: ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋‚˜๋ผ๋„ ๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ณ  ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋‚˜๋ผ์—์„œ๋„
20:36
in this country and other countries
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๋ถ„๋ช…ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ํฐ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ๊ฐ€์ ธ์˜จ ๊ฒƒ์ด
20:38
is the income distribution inequality,
395
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2214
์†Œ๋“ ๋ถˆ๊ท ํ˜•์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
20:40
the dramatic change in income distribution in the US
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50๋…„ ์ „์— ๋น„ํ•ด ๋ฏธ๊ตญ๊ณผ ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์˜
20:44
from what it was 50 years ago,
397
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1702
์†Œ๋“ ๋ถ„ํฌ๊ฐ€ ์—„์ฒญ๋‚˜๊ฒŒ ๋‹ฌ๋ผ์กŒ์–ด์š”.
20:46
and around the world.
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20:47
Is there anything we can do to affect that?
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์ด๊ฑธ ๋ณ€ํ™”์‹œํ‚ค๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑด ์—†๋‚˜์š”?
20:50
Because that gets at a lot of the underlying causes.
400
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์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ์›์ธ์ด ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒฝ์šฐ๊ฐ€ ๋งŽ์ž–์•„์š”.
20:56
YNH: So far I haven't heard a very good idea about what to do about it,
401
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์—ฌํƒœ๊นŒ์ง€ ์ด๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ข‹์€ ๋Œ€์ฑ…์„ ๋“ค์–ด๋ณธ ์ ์ด ์—†์–ด์š”.
21:01
again, partly because most ideas remain on the national level,
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๋‹ค์‹œ ๋งํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ, ๋ถ€๋ถ„์ ์œผ๋กœ๋Š” ๊ตญ์ œ์  ๋ฌธ์ œ์ธ๋ฐ ๋ฐ˜ํ•ด ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์˜ ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ…์ด
21:05
and the problem is global.
403
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€ ์ˆ˜์ค€์— ๋จธ๋ฌผ๋Ÿฌ์žˆ๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ด๊ธฐ๋„ ํ•ด์š”.
21:06
I mean, one idea that we hear quite a lot about now
404
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์š”์ฆ˜ ๋งŽ์ด ๋“ฃ๋Š” ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ… ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜๊ฐ€
21:09
is universal basic income.
405
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๋ณดํŽธ์ ์ธ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์ด์ž–์•„์š”.
21:11
But this is a problem.
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ด๊ฒŒ ๋ฌธ์ œ์˜ˆ์š”.
21:13
I mean, I think it's a good start,
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์ด๊ฒŒ ์ข‹์€ ์‹œ์ž‘์ ์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐ์€ ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ,
21:14
but it's a problematic idea because it's not clear what "universal" is
408
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"๋ณดํŽธ์ "์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๊ณผ "๊ธฐ๋ณธ"์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ์ง€ ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
21:18
and it's not clear what "basic" is.
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๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋˜๋Š” ์•„์ด๋””์–ด์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
21:20
Most people when they speak about universal basic income,
410
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๋ณดํŽธ์  ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์–˜๊ธฐํ•  ๋•Œ ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์˜๋ฏธํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
21:23
they actually mean national basic income.
411
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€์  ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
21:26
But the problem is global.
412
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ด๊ฑด ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ฌธ์ œ์˜ˆ์š”.
21:28
Let's say that you have AI and 3D printers taking away millions of jobs
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๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ์—์„œ ์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ 3D ํ”„๋ฆฐํ„ฐ๊ฐ€ ์ œ ์…”์ธ ์™€ ์‹ ๋ฐœ์„ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ์„œ
21:33
in Bangladesh,
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์ˆ˜ ๋ฐฑ๋งŒ ๊ฐœ์˜ ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋บ๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ด…์‹œ๋‹ค.
21:35
from all the people who make my shirts and my shoes.
415
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21:38
So what's going to happen?
416
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๋ฌด์Šจ ์ผ์ด ์ผ์–ด๋‚ ๊นŒ์š”?
21:39
The US government will levy taxes on Google and Apple in California,
417
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๋ฏธ๊ตญ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ์บ˜๋ฆฌํฌ๋‹ˆ์•„์— ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ตฌ๊ธ€๊ณผ ์• ํ”Œ์—๊ฒŒ ์„ธ๊ธˆ์„ ์ง•์ˆ˜ํ•ด์„œ
21:46
and use that to pay basic income to unemployed Bangladeshis?
418
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๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ์˜ ์‹ค์—…์ž๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์„ ์ง€๊ธ‰ํ•ด์ค„๊นŒ์š”?
21:50
If you believe that, you can just as well believe
419
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๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋ฏฟ์œผ์‹ ๋‹ค๋ฉด ์‚ฐํƒ€ํด๋กœ์Šค๊ฐ€ ์™€์„œ
21:53
that Santa Claus will come and solve the problem.
420
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๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•ด์ค„๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ฏฟ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ๋‚˜ ๋งˆ์ฐฌ๊ฐ€์ง€์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
21:57
So unless we have really universal and not national basic income,
421
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๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์— ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์  ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์ด ์•„๋‹Œ ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์ธ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์ด ์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ ์„œ์•ผ
22:02
the deep problems are not going to go away.
422
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๋ฟŒ๋ฆฌ ๊นŠ์€ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋“ค์€ ์‚ฌ๋ผ์ง€์ง€ ์•Š์„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
22:05
And also it's not clear what basic is,
423
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ด ๋ญ˜ ๋œปํ•˜๋Š”์ง€๋„ ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
22:08
because what are basic human needs?
424
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์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ธ๊ฐ„์˜ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ์š•๊ตฌ์—๋Š” ๋ญ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์ฃ ?
22:10
A thousand years ago, just food and shelter was enough.
425
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์ฒœ ๋…„ ์ „์—๋Š” ์Œ์‹๊ณผ ์ฃผ๊ฑฐ์ง€๋งŒ ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉด ์ถฉ๋ถ„ํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
22:13
But today, people will say education is a basic human need,
426
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ํ˜„๋Œ€์ธ๋“ค์€ ๊ต์œก๋„ ์ธ๊ฐ„์—๊ฒŒ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ํ•„์š”ํ•˜๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋งํ•  ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
22:17
it should be part of the package.
427
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๊ต์œก๋„ ํฌํ•จ๋˜์–ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
22:19
But how much? Six years? Twelve years? PhD?
428
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์–ผ๋งˆ๋‚˜์š”? 6๋…„์ด์š”? 12๋…„์ด์š”? ๋ฐ•์‚ฌ๊ณผ์ •๊นŒ์ง€์š”?
22:22
Similarly, with health care,
429
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์˜๋ฃŒ ์„œ๋น„์Šค๋„ ๋˜‘๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
22:24
let's say that in 20, 30, 40 years,
430
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20, 30, 40๋…„ ๋’ค๋ฉด
22:27
you'll have expensive treatments that can extend human life
431
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์ธ๊ฐ„ ์ˆ˜๋ช…์„ 120๊นŒ์ง€ ๋Š˜๋ ค์ค„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋น„์‹ผ ์น˜๋ฃŒ๋ฒ•์ด
22:31
to 120, I don't know.
432
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๊ฐœ๋ฐœ๋œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๊ฐ€์ •ํ•ด๋ด…์‹œ๋‹ค.
22:33
Will this be part of the basket of basic income or not?
433
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์ด๊ฑด ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“์— ํฌํ•จ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„๊นŒ์š”?
22:38
It's a very difficult problem,
434
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์ •๋ง ์–ด๋ ค์šด ๋ฌธ์ œ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
22:39
because in a world where people lose their ability to be employed,
435
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ณ ์šฉ๋  ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์„ ์žƒ์–ด๋ฒ„๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ๋Š”
22:46
the only thing they are going to get is this basic income.
436
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๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ ๋Š” ๊ธฐ๋ณธ ์†Œ๋“๋ฟ์ด๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
22:49
So what's part of it is a very, very difficult ethical question.
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ฌด์—‡์ด ํฌํ•จ๋˜๋Š๋ƒ๋Š” ๋งค์šฐ ์–ด๋ ค์šด ์œค๋ฆฌ์  ๋ฌธ์ œ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
22:54
CA: There's a bunch of questions on how the world affords it as well,
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์„ธ๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ ๋ˆ์„ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋งˆ๋ จํ•˜๋Š๋ƒ, ๋ˆ„๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ ๋ˆ์„ ๋‚ด๋Š๋ƒ์—
22:58
who pays.
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๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋„ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ๋งŽ์•„์š”.
22:59
There's a question here from Facebook from Lisa Larson:
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ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์˜ ๋ฆฌ์‚ฌ ๋ผ์Šจ์ด ์งˆ๋ฌธํ•˜์…จ๋Š”๋ฐ์š”.
23:02
"How does nationalism in the US now
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"ํ˜„์žฌ ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๊ฐ€
23:04
compare to that between World War I and World War II
442
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์ œ1์ฐจ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋Œ€์ „๊ณผ ์ œ2์ฐจ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋Œ€์ „ ์‚ฌ์ด์— ์žˆ์—ˆ๋˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์™€
23:08
in the last century?"
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๋น„๊ตํ–ˆ์„ ๋•Œ ์–ด๋–ค๊ฐ€์š”?"
23:09
YNH: Well the good news, with regard to the dangers of nationalism,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ข‹์€ ์†Œ์‹์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์˜ ์œ„ํ—˜์„ฑ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”
23:14
we are in a much better position than a century ago.
445
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์šฐ๋ฆฐ ์ง€๊ธˆ 100๋…„ ์ „๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ๋‚˜์€ ์ƒํƒœ์— ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
23:18
A century ago, 1917,
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100๋…„ ์ „์ธ 1917๋…„์—๋Š”
23:20
Europeans were killing each other by the millions.
447
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์œ ๋Ÿฝ์ธ๋“ค์€ ์„œ๋กœ๋ฅผ ์ˆ˜๋ฐฑ๋งŒ ๋ช…์”ฉ ์ฃฝ์˜€์–ด์š”.
23:23
In 2016, with Brexit, as far as I remember,
448
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2016๋…„์— ๋ธŒ๋ ‰์‹œํŠธ๊ฐ€ ์ผ์–ด๋‚ฌ์„ ๋•Œ, ์ œ ๊ธฐ์–ต์œผ๋กœ๋Š”
23:28
a single person lost their life, an MP who was murdered by some extremist.
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์–ด๋–ค ๊ทน๋‹จ์ฃผ์˜์ž์— ์˜ํ•ด ์‚ดํ•ด๋‹นํ•œ ํ•˜์›์˜์› ํ•œ ๋ช…๋งŒ ๋ชฉ์ˆจ์„ ์žƒ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
23:33
Just a single person.
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๋”ฑ ํ•œ ๋ช…๋งŒ์š”.
23:35
I mean, if Brexit was about British independence,
451
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๋ธŒ๋ ‰์‹œํŠธ๊ฐ€ ์˜๊ตญ์˜ ๋…๋ฆฝ์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด
23:37
this is the most peaceful war of independence in human history.
452
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์ธ๋ฅ˜ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์ƒ ์ œ์ผ ํ‰ํ™”๋กœ์šด ๋…๋ฆฝ์ „์Ÿ์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
23:42
And let's say that Scotland will now choose to leave the UK
453
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์Šค์ฝ”ํ‹€๋žœ๋“œ๊ฐ€ ๋ธŒ๋ ‰์‹œํŠธ ์ดํ›„ ์˜๊ตญ์„ ๋– ๋‚  ์„ ํƒ์„ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ 
23:48
after Brexit.
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๊ฐ€์ •ํ•ด๋ด…์‹œ๋‹ค.
23:50
So in the 18th century,
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1984
18์„ธ๊ธฐ์—๋Š”
23:52
if Scotland wanted -- and the Scots wanted several times --
456
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์Šค์ฝ”ํ‹€๋žœ๋“œ์ธ๋“ค์€ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ฒˆ ์š”๊ตฌํ–ˆ์—ˆ๋Š”๋ฐ
23:55
to break out of the control of London,
457
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3533
์Šค์ฝ”ํ‹€๋žœ๋“œ๊ฐ€ ๋Ÿฐ๋˜์˜ ์ง€๋ฐฐ์—์„œ ๋ฒ—์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•˜๋ฉด
23:59
the reaction of the government in London was to send an army up north
458
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๋Ÿฐ๋˜ ์ •๋ถ€์˜ ๋Œ€์‘์€ ๋ถ์ชฝ์œผ๋กœ ๊ตฐ๋Œ€๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋‚ด์„œ
24:03
to burn down Edinburgh and massacre the highland tribes.
459
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์—๋”˜๋ฒ„๋Ÿฌ๋ฅผ ๋ถˆํƒœ์šฐ๊ณ  ํ•˜์ด๋žœ๋“œ ๋ถ€์กฑ์„ ํ•™์‚ดํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
24:07
My guess is that if, in 2018, the Scots vote for independence,
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๋งŒ์•ฝ 2018๋…„์— ์Šค์ฝ”ํ‹€๋žœ๋“œ์ธ๋“ค์ด ๋…๋ฆฝํˆฌํ‘œ๋ฅผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
24:12
the London government will not send an army up north
461
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๋Ÿฐ๋˜ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ๋ถ์œผ๋กœ ๊ตฐ๋Œ€๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋‚ด์„œ
24:16
to burn down Edinburgh.
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์—๋”˜๋ฒ„๋Ÿฌ๋ฅผ ๋ถˆํƒœ์šธ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์ง„ ์•Š์•„์š”.
24:17
Very few people are now willing to kill or be killed
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์Šค์ฝ”ํ‹€๋žœ๋“œ๋‚˜ ์˜๊ตญ ๋…๋ฆฝ์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ๊ธฐ๊บผ์ด ์ฃฝ๊ฑฐ๋‚˜ ์ฃฝ์ด๋ ค๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€
24:22
for Scottish or for British independence.
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์ด์ œ ๋งค์šฐ ์ ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
24:24
So for all the talk of the rise of nationalism
465
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์˜ ๋ถ€์ƒ๊ณผ 1930๋…„๋Œ€๋กœ์˜ ํšŒ๊ท€๋‚˜,
24:30
and going back to the 1930s,
466
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ๋กœ์˜ ํšŒ๊ท€์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ
24:32
to the 19th century, in the West at least,
467
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์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋“ค์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ ์–˜๊ธฐํ•˜์ž๋ฉด
24:36
the power of national sentiments today is far, far smaller
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์ ์–ด๋„ ์„œ์–‘๊ถŒ์—์„œ๋Š” ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์• ๊ตญ์‹ฌ์˜ ํž˜์€ 100๋…„ ์ „๋ณด๋‹ค
24:42
than it was a century ago.
469
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ํ›จ์”ฌ ๋งŽ์ด ์•ฝํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
24:44
CA: Although some people now, you hear publicly worrying
470
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ๋ฐ ์ผ๋ถ€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ํ˜„์žฌ ๊ณต๊ฐœ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์šฐ๋ ค๋ฅผ ํ‘œํ•˜์ž–์•„์š”,
24:48
about whether that might be shifting,
471
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์ด ์ƒํ™ฉ์ด ๋ณ€ํ™”ํ• ์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฅธ๋‹ค๊ณ 
24:50
that there could actually be outbreaks of violence in the US
472
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3398
์ƒํ™ฉ์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€๋Š”์ง€์— ๋”ฐ๋ผ ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์— ํญ๋ ฅ์ด ์‹ค์ œ๋กœ
24:54
depending on how things turn out.
473
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๋ฐœ์ƒํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
24:56
Should we be worried about that,
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์ด๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๊ฑฑ์ •ํ•ด์•ผ ํ• ๊นŒ์š”
24:58
or do you really think things have shifted?
475
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์•„๋‹ˆ๋ฉด ์ •๋ง ์ƒํ™ฉ์ด ๋ณ€ํ–ˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์„ธ์š”?
25:00
YNH: No, we should be worried.
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์•„๋‹ˆ์š”, ์šฐ๋ คํ•ด์•ผ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
25:01
We should be aware of two things.
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๋‘ ๊ฐ€์ง€๋ฅผ ์กฐ์‹ฌํ•ด์•ผ ํ•ด์š”.
25:03
First of all, don't be hysterical.
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๋จผ์ €, ๊ด‘์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ณ€ํ•˜๋ฉด ์•ˆ๋ผ์š”.
25:05
We are not back in the First World War yet.
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์šฐ๋ฆฐ ์•„์ง ์ œ1์ฐจ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋Œ€์ „์—์„œ ๋Œ์•„์˜ค์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์–ด์š”.
25:08
But on the other hand, don't be complacent.
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋ฐ˜๋ฉด์— ์•ˆ์ผํ•ด์ ธ์„œ๋„ ์•ˆ๋ผ์š”.
25:11
We reached from 1917 to 2017,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ 1917๋…„์—์„œ 2017๋…„๊นŒ์ง€ ์˜ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด๋˜ ๊ฒƒ์€
25:16
not by some divine miracle,
482
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๋ฌด์Šจ ์‹ ์˜ ๊ธฐ์  ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
25:19
but simply by human decisions,
483
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2024
์ธ๊ฐ„์˜ ๊ฒฐ์ •์— ์˜ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
25:21
and if we now start making the wrong decisions,
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์ง€๊ธˆ๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ํ‹€๋ฆฐ ๊ฒฐ์ •์„ ๋‚ด๋ฆฌ๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•˜๋ฉด
25:23
we could be back in an analogous situation to 1917
485
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๋ช‡ ๋…„ ๋’ค์—๋Š” 1917๋…„๊ณผ ๋น„์Šทํ•œ ์ƒํ™ฉ์œผ๋กœ
25:28
in a few years.
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1506
๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€๊ฒŒ ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
25:29
One of the things I know as a historian
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ์—ญ์‚ฌํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ ์•„๋Š” ์‚ฌ์‹ค ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜๋Š”
25:32
is that you should never underestimate human stupidity.
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์ธ๋ฅ˜์˜ ๋ฉ์ฒญํ•จ์„ ๊ณผ์†Œํ‰๊ฐ€ํ•˜๋ฉด ์ ˆ๋Œ€ ์•ˆ๋œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
25:36
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
25:38
It's one of the most powerful forces in history,
490
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์ธ๋ฅ˜์˜ ๋ฉ์ฒญํ•จ๊ณผ ํญ๋ ฅ์€ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์—์„œ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ๊ฐ•๋ ฅํ•œ
25:42
human stupidity and human violence.
491
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ํž˜๋“ค ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
25:44
Humans do such crazy things for no obvious reason,
492
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•œ ์ด์œ  ์—†์ด ๋ฏธ์นœ ์ง“๋“ค์„ ํ•ด์š”.
25:48
but again, at the same time,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋™์‹œ์—
25:50
another very powerful force in human history is human wisdom.
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์ธ๋ฅ˜ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์—์„œ ๋งค์šฐ ๊ฐ•๋ ฅํ•œ ํž˜์—๋Š” ์ธ๋ฅ˜์˜ ์ง€ํ˜œ๋„ ์žˆ์ฃ .
25:53
We have both.
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์šฐ๋ฆฐ์—๊ฒŒ ๋‘˜ ๋‹ค ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
25:55
CA: We have with us here moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt,
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๋„๋• ์‹ฌ๋ฆฌํ•™์ž์ธ ์กฐ๋‚˜๋‹จ ํ•˜์ดํŠธ๊ฐ€ ์™€ ๊ณ„์‹ ๋ฐ
25:57
who I think has a question.
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์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ์žˆ์œผ์‹  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
26:00
Jonathan Haidt: Thanks, Yuval.
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์กฐ๋‚˜๋‹จ: ๊ฐ์‚ฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค, ์œ ๋ฐœ.
26:02
So you seem to be a fan of global governance,
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์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜์˜ ํŒฌ์ด์‹  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์€๋ฐ
26:04
but when you look at the map of the world from Transparency International,
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์ •์น˜ ๊ธฐ๊ด€๋“ค์˜ ๋ถ€ํŒจ ์ˆ˜์ค€์— ๋“ฑ๊ธ‰์„ ๋งค๊ธด
26:08
which rates the level of corruption of political institutions,
501
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3328
๊ตญ์ œํˆฌ๋ช…์„ฑ๊ธฐ๊ตฌ์—์„œ ๋‚ด๋†“์€ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ง€๋„๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋ฉด
26:11
it's a vast sea of red with little bits of yellow here and there
502
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3080
๋นจ๊ฐ„์ƒ‰์˜ ๋ฐ”๋‹ค ์†์— ์ฐฉํ•œ ๊ธฐ๊ด€์„ ๋‚˜ํƒ€๋‚ด๋Š” ๋…ธ๋ž€์ ์ด
26:14
for those with good institutions.
503
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๊ตฐ๋ฐ๊ตฐ๋ฐ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
26:16
So if we were to have some kind of global governance,
504
1576334
2501
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ ์ธ ํ†ต์น˜๋ฅผ ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋˜๋ฉด
26:18
what makes you think it would end up being more like Denmark
505
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๋Ÿฌ์‹œ์•„๋‚˜ ์˜จ๋‘๋ผ์Šค๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹Œ ๋ด๋งˆํฌ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ๋  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ 
26:21
rather than more like Russia or Honduras,
506
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹œ๋Š” ๊ทผ๊ฑฐ๋Š” ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ๊ฐ€์š”?
26:23
and aren't there alternatives,
507
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋Œ€์•ˆ๋„ ์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š๋‚˜์š”?
26:25
such as we did with CFCs?
508
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ํ”„๋ ˆ์˜จ๊ฐ€์Šค๋•Œ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ์š”?
26:27
There are ways to solve global problems with national governments.
509
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3107
๊ฐ๊ตญ์˜ ์ •๋ถ€๋กœ ๊ตญ์ œ์  ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์ด ์กด์žฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
26:30
What would world government actually look like,
510
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€๋Š” ์–ด๋–ค ๋ชจ์Šต์ผ๊นŒ์š”?
26:32
and why do you think it would work?
511
1592782
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์™œ ํšจ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์œผ๋ฆฌ๋ผ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
26:34
YNH: Well, I don't know what it would look like.
512
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์–ด๋–ค ๋ชจ์Šต์ผ์ง€๋Š” ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์–ด์š”.
26:38
Nobody still has a model for that.
513
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€์˜ ํ˜•ํƒœ๋ฅผ ์ œ์‹œํ•œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ์•„์ง ์•„๋ฌด๋„ ์—†์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
26:41
The main reason we need it
514
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ํ•„์š”ํ•œ ์ฃผ๋œ ์ด์œ ๋Š”
26:44
is because many of these issues are lose-lose situations.
515
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์ด์Šˆ๋“ค ์ค‘ ๋‹ค์ˆ˜๊ฐ€ ํŒจ-ํŒจ ์ƒํ™ฉ์ด๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
26:48
When you have a win-win situation like trade,
516
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๋ฌด์—ญ์—์„œ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ๋ฌด์—ญ ํ˜‘์ •์œผ๋กœ
26:51
both sides can benefit from a trade agreement,
517
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์–‘์ธก ๋ชจ๋‘ ์ด๋“์„ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ์œˆ์œˆ ์ƒํ™ฉ์ด๋ผ๋ฉด
26:54
then this is something you can work out.
518
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ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•ด๋‚˜๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒ ์ฃ .
26:56
Without some kind of global government,
519
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€ ์—†์ด๋„
26:58
national governments each have an interest in doing it.
520
1618871
2854
๊ฐ๊ตญ ์ •๋ถ€๋“ค์€ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ€์งˆ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
27:01
But when you have a lose-lose situation like with climate change,
521
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์˜ ๊ฒฝ์šฐ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ํŒจ-ํŒจ ์ƒํ™ฉ์— ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด
27:05
it's much more difficult
522
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1641
์ œ๋Œ€๋กœ ๋œ, ์ง€๋ฐฐ์ ์ธ ๊ถŒ๋ ฅ์ด
27:07
without some overarching authority, real authority.
523
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์—†์œผ๋ฉด ํ›จ์”ฌ ๋” ํž˜๋“ค์–ด์ง‘๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
27:12
Now, how to get there and what would it look like,
524
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์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š”์ง€, ์–ด๋–ค ๋ชจ์Šต์ผ์ง€๋Š”
27:15
I don't know.
525
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์ €๋„ ๋ชฐ๋ผ์š”.
27:16
And certainly there is no obvious reason
526
1636489
3737
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ๋ด๋งˆํฌ๊ฐ™์€ ๋ชจ์Šต์„ ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋˜๊ฑฐ๋‚˜
27:20
to think that it would look like Denmark,
527
1640250
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๋ฏผ์ฃผ์ฃผ์˜์ผ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ 
27:22
or that it would be a democracy.
528
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•  ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•œ ๊ทผ๊ฑฐ๋„ ์—†์–ด์š”.
27:24
Most likely it wouldn't.
529
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์•ˆ ๊ทธ๋Ÿด ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด ๋” ๋†’๊ฒ ์ฃ .
27:26
We don't have workable democratic models
530
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •๋ถ€๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•œ ์ œ๋Œ€๋กœ ์ž‘๋™ํ•  ๋ฏผ์ฃผ์  ๋ชจ๋ธ์ด
27:32
for a global government.
531
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์•„์ง ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
27:34
So maybe it would look more like ancient China
532
1654951
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ํ˜„๋Œ€ ๋ด๋งˆํฌ๋ณด๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ณ ๋Œ€ ์ค‘๊ตญ๊ฐ™์€ ๋ชจ์Šต์ด ๋  ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
27:38
than like modern Denmark.
533
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27:39
But still, given the dangers that we are facing,
534
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๊ทธ๋ž˜๋„ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ง๋ฉดํ•œ ์œ„ํ—˜์„ ๊ณ ๋ คํ•  ๋•Œ,
27:45
I think the imperative of having some kind of real ability
535
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๊ตญ์ œ์  ์ˆ˜์ค€์—์„œ ์–ด๋ ค์šด ๊ฒฐ์ •๋“ค์„ ๋ฐ€๊ณ  ๋‚˜๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”
27:50
to force through difficult decisions on the global level
536
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์‹ค์งˆ์ ์ธ ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์„ ๋ณด์œ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์˜ ํ•„์š”์„ฑ์ด
27:54
is more important than almost anything else.
537
1674306
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๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ค‘์š”ํ•˜๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
27:59
CA: There's a question from Facebook here,
538
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์—์„œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ๋“ค์–ด์™”๋Š”๋ฐ์š”,
28:01
and then we'll get the mic to Andrew.
539
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๊ทธ ๋‹ค์Œ์— ์•ค๋“œ๋ฅ˜์—๊ฒŒ ๋งˆ์ดํฌ๋ฅผ ๋„˜๊ธฐ๋„๋ก ํ•˜๊ฒ ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
28:03
So, Kat Hebron on Facebook,
540
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ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์˜ ์บฃ ํ—ค๋ธŒ๋ก ์ด
28:05
calling in from Vail:
541
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๋ฐฐ์ผ์—์„œ ์ „ํ™”์ฃผ์…จ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
28:07
"How would developed nations manage the millions of climate migrants?"
542
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"๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”๋กœ ์ธํ•œ ์ˆ˜๋ฐฑ๋งŒ ๋ช…์˜ ์ด์ฃผ๋ฏผ๋“ค์„ ์„ ์ง„๊ตญ๋“ค์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๊ฐ๋‹นํ• ๊นŒ์š”?"
28:12
YNH: I don't know.
543
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์–ด์š”.
28:14
CA: That's your answer, Kat. (Laughter)
544
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ด์ƒ ์บฃ์˜ ๋‹ต๋ณ€์ด์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
28:16
YNH: And I don't think that they know either.
545
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์„ ์ง„๊ตญ๋“ค๋„ ์•Œ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
28:18
They'll just deny the problem, maybe.
546
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์•„๋งˆ ๊ทธ๋ƒฅ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ๋ถ€์ธํ•˜๊ฒ ์ฃ .
28:20
CA: But immigration, generally, is another example of a problem
547
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3025
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ผ๋ฐ˜์ ์œผ๋กœ ์ด๋ฏผ๋„ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€ ๋Œ€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์˜ ์ƒํ™ฉ์—์„œ
28:23
that's very hard to solve on a nation-by-nation basis.
548
1703769
2573
๋งค์šฐ ํ’€๊ธฐ ์–ด๋ ค์šด ๋ฌธ์ œ ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜์ž–์•„์š”.
28:26
One nation can shut its doors,
549
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ํ•œ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ๋ฌธ์„ ๋‹ซ์•„๋ฒ„๋ฆด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ณ 
28:27
but maybe that stores up problems for the future.
550
1707860
2534
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ๋‚˜์ค‘์— ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์Œ“์ด๊ฒŒ ํ•  ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์ž–์•„์š”.
28:30
YNH: Yes, I mean -- it's another very good case,
551
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ์ด๋ฏผ๋„ ์•„์ฃผ ์ข‹์€ ์˜ˆ์‹œ์˜ˆ์š”.
28:34
especially because it's so much easier
552
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ํŠนํžˆ๋‚˜ ์ค‘์„ธ๋‚˜ ๊ณ ๋Œ€๋ณด๋‹ค
28:36
to migrate today
553
1716567
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ํ˜„๋Œ€์— ์ด์ฃผํ•˜๊ธฐ๊ฐ€
28:38
than it was in the Middle Ages or in ancient times.
554
1718422
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ํ›จ์”ฌ ๋” ์‰ฌ์šฐ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
28:42
CA: Yuval, there's a belief among many technologists, certainly,
555
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์œ ๋ฐœ, ๋งŽ์€ ๊ณตํ•™์ž๋“ค์ด
28:46
that political concerns are kind of overblown,
556
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์ •์น˜์  ์šฐ๋ ค๋“ค์ด ๊ณผ์žฅ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ฏฟ๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
28:48
that actually, political leaders don't have that much influence
557
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์ •์น˜ ์ง€๋„์ž๋“ค์ด ์‹ค์งˆ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ๊ทธ๋งŒํผ์„ ์˜ํ–ฅ๋ ฅ์„
28:52
in the world,
558
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๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
28:53
that the real determination of humanity at this point is by science,
559
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ํ˜„ ์‹œ์ ์—์„œ ์‹ค์ œ๋กœ ์ธ๋ฅ˜์˜ ์šด๋ช…์„ ๊ฒฐ์ •ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€ ๊ณผํ•™์ด๊ณ 
28:57
by invention, by companies,
560
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๋ฐœ๋ช…์ด๊ณ , ๊ธฐ์—…๋“ค์ด๊ณ 
28:59
by many things other than political leaders,
561
1739371
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์ •์น˜ ์ง€๋„์ž๋“ค์ด ์•„๋‹Œ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋งŽ์€ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์ด๋ฉฐ
29:03
and it's actually very hard for leaders to do much,
562
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์ง€๋„์ž๋“ค์ด ๋งŽ์€ ์ผ์„ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€ ์‚ฌ์‹ค์ƒ ๋งค์šฐ ํž˜๋“ค๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
29:06
so we're actually worrying about nothing here.
563
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์“ธ๋ฐ์—†๋Š” ๊ฑฑ์ •์„ ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด๋ผ๊ณ ์š”.
29:09
YNH: Well, first, it should be emphasized
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์Œ, ๋จผ์ € ์ •์น˜ ์ง€๋„์ž๋“ค์ด
29:12
that it's true that political leaders' ability to do good is very limited,
565
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์„ ํ–‰์„ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์€ ๋งค์šฐ ์ œํ•œ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ์ง€๋งŒ
29:17
but their ability to do harm is unlimited.
566
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์•…ํ–‰์„ ์ €์ง€๋ฅผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์€ ๋ฌดํ•œํ•˜๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ ์•„์…”์•ผํ•ด์š”.
29:20
There is a basic imbalance here.
567
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๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ๋ถˆ๊ท ํ˜•์ด ๋‚ด์žฌ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
29:22
You can still press the button and blow everybody up.
568
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์•„์ง๋„ ๋ฒ„ํŠผ ํ•˜๋‚˜๋ฅผ ๋ˆŒ๋Ÿฌ์„œ ๋ชจ๋‘๋ฅผ ํญํŒŒ์‹œํ‚ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
29:26
You have that kind of ability.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ํž˜์ด ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
29:27
But if you want, for example, to reduce inequality,
570
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋งŒ์•ฝ์— ๋ถˆํ‰๋“ฑ์„ ์ค„์ด๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
29:31
that's very, very difficult.
571
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๊ทธ๊ฑด ๋งค์šฐ ๋งค์šฐ ์–ด๋ ต์ฃ .
29:33
But to start a war,
572
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ „์Ÿ์„ ์ผ์œผํ‚ค๋Š” ๊ฑด
29:34
you can still do so very easily.
573
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์—ฌ์ „ํžˆ ์•„์ฃผ ์‰ฝ๊ฒŒ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
29:36
So there is a built-in imbalance in the political system today
574
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ํ˜„๋Œ€ ์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์—๋Š” ๋‚ด์žฌ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ถˆ๊ท ํ˜•์ด ์กด์žฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
29:40
which is very frustrating,
575
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๋งค์šฐ ์งœ์ฆ๋‚˜๋Š” ์ผ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
29:42
where you cannot do a lot of good but you can still do a lot of harm.
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์„ ํ–‰์€ ๋งŽ์ด ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์—†์ง€๋งŒ ์•…ํ–‰์€ ๋งŽ์ด ์ €์ง€๋ฅผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
29:46
And this makes the political system still a very big concern.
577
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ •์น˜ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ์ด ์—ฌ์ „ํžˆ ํฐ ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
29:51
CA: So as you look at what's happening today,
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๋Š” ์ผ๋“ค์„ ๋ณด๋ฉด์„œ
29:53
and putting your historian's hat on,
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์—ญ์‚ฌํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ
29:55
do you look back in history at moments when things were going just fine
580
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๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒŒ ์ž˜ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ์—ˆ๋Š”๋ฐ ํ•œ ๋ช…์˜ ๋ฆฌ๋”๊ฐ€ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋‚˜ ๋‚˜๋ผ๋ฅผ
29:59
and an individual leader really took the world or their country backwards?
581
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ํ‡ด๋ณด์‹œํ‚จ ์—ญ์‚ฌ ์†์˜ ์ˆœ๊ฐ„๋“ค์„ ๋Œ์•„๋ณด์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
30:05
YNH: There are quite a few examples,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ๊ทธ๋žฌ๋˜ ๊ฒฝ์šฐ๊ฐ€ ๊ฝค ์žˆ์ฃ .
30:07
but I should emphasize, it's never an individual leader.
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1807780
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ์ž๋ฉด, ์ ˆ๋Œ€ ์ง€๋„์ž ํ•œ ๋ช… ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ธ ๊ฒฝ์šฐ๋Š” ์—†์–ด์š”.
30:10
I mean, somebody put him there,
584
1810623
1634
๋ˆ„๊ตฐ๊ฐ€๋Š” ๊ทธ๋ฅผ ๊ทธ ์ž๋ฆฌ์— ์•‰ํ˜€๋†จ์ž–์•„์š”.
30:12
and somebody allowed him to continue to be there.
585
1812281
3283
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ณ„์† ๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ ์žˆ๋„๋ก ํ—ˆ์šฉํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
30:15
So it's never really just the fault of a single individual.
586
1815588
4083
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ ˆ๋Œ€ ํ•œ ๊ฐœ์ธ์˜ ์ž˜๋ชป์ธ ๊ฒฝ์šฐ๋Š” ์—†์–ด์š”.
30:19
There are a lot of people behind every such individual.
587
1819695
4613
๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๊ฐœ์ธ๋“ค ๋’ค์—๋Š” ํ•ญ์ƒ ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์กด์žฌํ•ด์š”.
30:24
CA: Can we have the microphone here, please, to Andrew?
588
1824332
3478
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์•ค๋“œ๋ฅ˜ ์”จ์—๊ฒŒ ๋งˆ์ดํฌ๋ฅผ ์ข€ ๋“œ๋ฆด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„๊นŒ์š”?
30:30
Andrew Solomon: You've talked a lot about the global versus the national,
589
1830952
3564
์•ค๋“œ๋ฅ˜: ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™” ๋Œ€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๋งŽ์€ ๋ง์”€์„ ํ•˜์…จ๋Š”๋ฐ์š”,
30:34
but increasingly, it seems to me,
590
1834540
1626
์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋ณด๊ธฐ์—๋Š” ๊ฐˆ์ˆ˜๋ก
30:36
the world situation is in the hands of identity groups.
591
1836190
2643
์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ •์„ธ๊ฐ€ ์œ ๋ช…ํ•œ ์ง‘๋‹จ๋“ค์˜ ์†์— ๋†“์—ฌ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
30:38
We look at people within the United States
592
1838857
2310
๋ฏธ๊ตญ ๋‚ด์—๋„ IS์— ๋ชจ์ง‘๋œ
30:41
who have been recruited by ISIS.
593
1841191
1627
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์žˆ๊ณ 
30:42
We look at these other groups which have formed
594
1842842
2191
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์˜ ํ…Œ๋‘๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋ฒ—์–ด๋‚˜์„œ ํ˜•์„ฑ๋˜์—ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
30:45
which go outside of national bounds
595
1845057
1962
์—ฌ์ „ํžˆ ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ถŒ๋ ฅ์„ ์ƒ์ง•ํ•˜๋Š”
30:47
but still represent significant authorities.
596
1847043
2161
๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ง‘๋‹จ๋“ค๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
30:49
How are they to be integrated into the system,
597
1849228
2428
์ด๋Ÿฐ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์‹œ์Šคํ…œ ๋‚ด๋กœ ํ†ตํ•ฉ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ณ 
30:51
and how is a diverse set of identities to be made coherent
598
1851680
3713
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ ์ด๋‚˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ๋ฆฌ๋”์‹ญ ํ•˜์—์„œ ๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง„ ์ง‘๋‹จ๋“ค์ด
30:55
under either national or global leadership?
599
1855417
2338
์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์ผ๊ด€์„ฑ์„ ๊ฐ€์งˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„๊นŒ์š”?
30:59
YNH: Well, the problem of such diverse identities
600
1859200
3221
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋ฌธ์ œ๋Š” ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์˜ ์ง‘๋‹จ๋“ค์ด
31:02
is a problem from nationalism as well.
601
1862445
2056
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์—์„œ๋„ ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
31:05
Nationalism believes in a single, monolithic identity,
602
1865049
4355
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋Š” ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ํš์ผ์ ์ธ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์„ ์ถ”๊ตฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
31:09
and exclusive or at least more extreme versions of nationalism
603
1869428
4116
๋ฐฐํƒ€์ ์ด๊ฑฐ๋‚˜ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ฉด ์ ์–ด๋„ ๋” ๊ทน๋‹จ์ ์ธ ํ˜•ํƒœ์˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋Š”
31:13
believe in an exclusive loyalty to a single identity.
604
1873568
3569
ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์— ์ „์ ์œผ๋กœ ์ถฉ์„ฑํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑธ ์‹ ๋ด‰ํ•ด์š”.
31:17
And therefore, nationalism has had a lot of problems
605
1877161
2916
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋Š” ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์„ ๋‚˜๋ˆ„๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•˜๋Š”
31:20
with people wanting to divide their identities
606
1880101
2876
๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ์ง‘๋‹จ์˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๊ณผ
31:23
between various groups.
607
1883001
2063
๋งŽ์€ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ๊ฒช์–ด์™”์–ด์š”.
31:25
So it's not just a problem, say, for a global vision.
608
1885088
4875
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๊ตญ์ œ์  ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ์žˆ์–ด์„œ๋งŒ ๋ฌธ์ œ์ธ ๊ฒƒ์ด ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
31:30
And I think, again, history shows
609
1890360
3852
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋‹ค์‹œ ๋งํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ, ์—ญ์‚ฌ๊ฐ€
31:34
that you shouldn't necessarily think in such exclusive terms.
610
1894236
6127
๋„ˆ๋ฌด ํ•œ์ •์ ์œผ๋กœ๋งŒ ์‚ฌ๊ณ ํ•˜๋ฉด ์•ˆ๋œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ ๋ณด์—ฌ์ค€๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
31:40
If you think that there is just a single identity for a person,
611
1900387
3408
ํ•œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์—๊ฒŒ ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ๋งŒ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹ ๋‹ค๋ฉด,
31:43
"I am just X, that's it, I can't be several things, I can be just that,"
612
1903819
5040
"๋‚œ ๊ทธ๋ƒฅ X์ผ ๋ฟ์ด์•ผ. ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๊ฐ€์ง€์˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋ชจ์Šต์ผ ์ˆœ ์—†์–ด. ๊ทธ๋ƒฅ X์•ผ."
31:48
that's the start of the problem.
613
1908883
2096
๊ทธ๋ ‡๋‹ค๋ฉด ๊ทธ๊ฑด ๋ฌธ์ œ์˜ ์‹œ์ž‘์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
31:51
You have religions, you have nations
614
1911003
2788
์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์—๊ฒŒ๋Š” ๋•Œ๋•Œ๋กœ ๋…์ ์ ์ธ ์ถฉ์„ฑ์„ ์š”๊ตฌํ•˜๋Š”
31:53
that sometimes demand exclusive loyalty,
615
1913815
3182
์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๊ณ , ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์ง€๋งŒ
31:57
but it's not the only option.
616
1917021
1731
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์„ ํƒ์ง€์˜ ์ „๋ถ€๋Š” ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
31:58
There are many religions and many nations
617
1918776
2382
์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์ด ๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์„
32:01
that enable you to have diverse identities at the same time.
618
1921182
3878
๋™์‹œ์— ๊ฐ€์งˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋„๋ก ํ•˜๋Š” ๋งŽ์€ ์ข…๊ต์™€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
32:05
CA: But is one explanation of what's happened in the last year
619
1925084
4357
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ๋ฐ ์ž‘๋…„์— ์ผ์–ด๋‚ฌ๋˜ ์ผ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ•œ ํ•ด์„์— ๋”ฐ๋ฅด๋ฉด,
32:09
that a group of people have got fed up with, if you like,
620
1929465
5180
์ ๋‹นํ•œ ๋‹จ์–ด๊ฐ€ ์—†์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ง„๋ณด์ฃผ์˜ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ๋“ค์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•ฉ์‹œ๋‹ค,
32:14
the liberal elites, for want of a better term,
621
1934669
3167
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์ง„๋ณด์ฃผ์˜ ์—˜๋ฆฌํŠธ๋“ค์— ์งˆ๋ ค์„œ
32:17
obsessing over many, many different identities and them feeling,
622
1937860
4373
์ˆ˜๋งŽ์€ ๋‹ค์–‘ํ•œ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์— ์ง‘์ฐฉํ•˜๊ณ  ์ด๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋Š๊ผˆ์–ด์š”,
32:22
"But what about my identity? I am being completely ignored here.
623
1942257
3859
"๊ทธ๋Ÿผ ๋‚ด ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€? ๋‚˜๋Š” ์ง€๊ธˆ ์™„์ „ํžˆ ๋ฌด์‹œ๋‹นํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์ž–์•„.
32:26
And by the way, I thought I was the majority"?
624
1946140
2974
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋‚˜๋Š” ๋‚ด๊ฐ€ ๋‹ค์ˆ˜์ธ ์ค„ ์•Œ์•˜๋Š”๋ฐ?"
32:29
And that that's actually sparked a lot of the anger.
625
1949138
2981
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์‚ฌ์‹ค ๋งŽ์€ ๋ถ„๋…ธ๋ฅผ ๋ถˆ๋Ÿฌ์ผ์œผ์ผฐ์ž–์•„์š”.
32:32
YNH: Yeah. Identity is always problematic,
626
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3145
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€ ์–ธ์ œ๋‚˜ ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋˜์ฃ .
32:35
because identity is always based on fictional stories
627
1955907
4310
์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€ ํ•ญ์ƒ ๊ฐ€์ƒ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์— ๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜์„ ๋‘๊ณ  ์žˆ๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
32:40
that sooner or later collide with reality.
628
1960241
2889
์–ธ์  ๊ฐ€๋Š” ํ˜„์‹ค๊ณผ ์ถฉ๋Œํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
32:43
Almost all identities,
629
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1518
๊ฑฐ์˜ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€
32:45
I mean, beyond the level of the basic community
630
1965252
3411
20-40๋ช… ๋‚จ์ง“ํ•œ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์ธ ๊ณต๋™์ฒด ๋ ˆ๋ฒจ์„
32:48
of a few dozen people,
631
1968687
1469
๋„˜์–ด์„œ๋Š” ์ˆ˜์ค€์˜ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€
32:50
are based on a fictional story.
632
1970180
1929
๊ฐ€์ƒ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์— ๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜ํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
32:52
They are not the truth.
633
1972133
1641
์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๊ณ 
32:53
They are not the reality.
634
1973798
1315
ํ˜„์‹ค๋„ ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
32:55
It's just a story that people invent and tell one another
635
1975137
3094
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์ง€์–ด๋‚ด์„œ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ด๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋“ค๋ ค์ฃผ๊ณ 
32:58
and start believing.
636
1978255
1491
๋ฏฟ๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์ผ ๋ฟ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
32:59
And therefore all identities are extremely unstable.
637
1979770
5320
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์€ ๊ทน๋„๋กœ ๋ถˆ์•ˆ์ •ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
33:05
They are not a biological reality.
638
1985114
2527
์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์ ์œผ๋กœ ์‹ค์กดํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
33:07
Sometimes nationalists, for example,
639
1987665
2006
์ผ๋ก€๋กœ ๊ฐ€๋” ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์ž๋“ค์€
33:09
think that the nation is a biological entity.
640
1989695
2927
๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์  ์‹ค์ฒด๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
33:12
It's made of the combination of soil and blood,
641
1992646
3613
ํ™๊ณผ ํ”ผ๊ฐ€ ๊ฒฐํ•ฉํ•˜์—ฌ
33:16
creates the nation.
642
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1702
๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ํƒ„์ƒํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
33:18
But this is just a fictional story.
643
1998009
3092
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ด๊ฑด ๊ทธ์ € ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์ฃ .
33:21
CA: Soil and blood kind of makes a gooey mess.
644
2001125
2563
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํ™๊ณผ ํ”ผ๋Š” ๋ˆ์ ํ•œ ๋ฉ์–ด๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋งŒ๋“ค์ฃ .
33:23
(Laughter)
645
2003712
1822
(์›ƒ์Œ)
33:25
YNH: It does, and also it messes with your mind
646
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3024
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๊ทธ๋ž˜์š”. ๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ž์‹ ์ด ํ™๊ณผ ํ”ผ์˜ ๊ฒฐํ•ฉ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
33:28
when you think too much that I am a combination of soil and blood.
647
2008606
4784
๋„ˆ๋ฌด ๋งŽ์ด ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋‹ค๋ณด๋ฉด ์ •์‹ ๋„ ๋ง์ณ์š”.
33:33
If you look from a biological perspective,
648
2013414
2867
์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์  ์‹œ๊ฐ์—์„œ ๋ณด๋ฉด
33:36
obviously none of the nations that exist today
649
2016305
3478
์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์กด์žฌํ•˜๋Š” ๊ทธ ์–ด๋–ค ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋„
33:39
existed 5,000 years ago.
650
2019807
2243
5000๋…„ ์ „์— ์กด์žฌํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์–ด์š”.
33:42
Homo sapiens is a social animal, that's for sure.
651
2022074
3858
ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค๋Š” ์˜์‹ฌํ•  ์—ฌ์ง€์—†์ด ์‚ฌํšŒ์ ์ธ ๋™๋ฌผ์ด์—์š”.
33:45
But for millions of years,
652
2025956
2427
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ˆ˜๋ฐฑ๋งŒ ๋…„ ๋™์•ˆ
33:48
Homo sapiens and our hominid ancestors lived in small communities
653
2028407
4639
ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค์™€ ์ธ๋ฅ˜์˜ ์กฐ์ƒ๋“ค์€ 20-40๋ช… ๋‚จ์ง“์œผ๋กœ ์ด๋ฃจ์–ด์ง„
33:53
of a few dozen individuals.
654
2033070
2329
์ž‘์€ ๊ณต๋™์ฒด๋ฅผ ์ด๋ฃจ๋ฉฐ ์‚ด์•˜์–ด์š”.
33:55
Everybody knew everybody else.
655
2035423
2127
๋ชจ๋‘๊ฐ€ ์„œ๋กœ๋ฅผ ์•Œ์•˜์ฃ .
33:57
Whereas modern nations are imagined communities,
656
2037574
4021
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ทผ๋Œ€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์€ ์ด ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์„ ๋‹ค ์•Œ์ง€๋„
34:01
in the sense that I don't even know all these people.
657
2041619
2551
๋ชปํ•œ๋‹ค๋Š” ์ ์—์„œ ์ƒ์ƒ ์†์˜ ๊ณต๋™์ฒด์˜ˆ์š”.
34:04
I come from a relatively small nation, Israel,
658
2044194
2848
์ €๋Š” ๋น„๊ต์  ์ž‘์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ธ ์ด์Šค๋ผ์—˜์—์„œ ์™”์–ด์š”.
34:07
and of eight million Israelis,
659
2047066
2143
์ €๋Š” 800๋งŒ ๋ช…์˜ ์ด์Šค๋ผ์—˜์ธ ์ค‘
34:09
I never met most of them.
660
2049233
1990
๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์„ ๋ชป ๋งŒ๋‚˜ ๋ดค์–ด์š”.
34:11
I will never meet most of them.
661
2051247
2308
์•ž์œผ๋กœ๋„ ์˜์›ํžˆ ์ธ๊ตฌ์˜ ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„์„ ๋ชป ๋งŒ๋‚˜๊ฒ ์ฃ .
34:13
They basically exist here.
662
2053579
2562
์—ฌ๊ธฐ ์กด์žฌํ•˜๋Š”๊ฑฐ๋‚˜ ๋‹ค๋ฆ„์—†์–ด์š”.
34:16
CA: But in terms of this identity,
663
2056165
2749
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ ๋ณด๋ฉด
34:18
this group who feel left out and perhaps have work taken away,
664
2058938
5437
์†Œ์™ธ๋œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋Š๋ผ๊ณ , ์–ด์ฉŒ๋ฉด ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๊นŒ์ง€ ๋นผ์•—๊ธฐ๋Š” ์ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
34:24
I mean, in "Homo Deus,"
665
2064399
2294
"ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ๋ฐ์šฐ์Šค" ์ฑ…์—์„œ
34:26
you actually speak of this group in one sense expanding,
666
2066717
3111
์œ ๋ฐœ์€ ์ด ์ง‘๋‹จ์ด ์ปค์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
34:29
that so many people may have their jobs taken away
667
2069852
3622
๋„ˆ๋ฌด ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์— ์˜ํ•ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋นผ์•—๊ฒจ์„œ
34:33
by technology in some way that we could end up with
668
2073498
4380
์œ ๋ฐœ์ด ์“ฐ์‹œ๋Š” ๋‹จ์–ด๋กœ ๋งํ•˜์ž๋ฉด
34:37
a really large -- I think you call it a "useless class" --
669
2077902
3171
๋งค์šฐ ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ "์“ธ๋ชจ์—†๋Š” ๊ณ„์ธต"์ด ์ƒ๊ธธ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
34:41
a class where traditionally,
670
2081097
2103
์ „ํ†ต์ ์œผ๋กœ ๊ฒฝ์ œ ์ธก๋ฉด์—์„œ
34:43
as viewed by the economy, these people have no use.
671
2083224
2731
์“ธ๋ชจ๊ฐ€ ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ์—ฌ๊ฒจ์ง€๋Š” ๊ณ„์ธต์ด์ฃ .
34:45
YNH: Yes.
672
2085979
1198
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค.
34:47
CA: How likely a possibility is that?
673
2087201
2931
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋Ÿด ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด ์–ผ๋งˆ๋‚˜ ๋ ๊นŒ์š”?
34:50
Is that something we should be terrified about?
674
2090156
2744
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋‘๋ ค์›Œํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ธ๊ฐ€์š”?
34:52
And can we address it in any way?
675
2092924
2659
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์–ด๋–ค ๋ฐฉ์‹์œผ๋กœ๋“  ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์—†์„๊นŒ์š”?
34:55
YNH: We should think about it very carefully.
676
2095607
2247
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋งค์šฐ ์กฐ์‹ฌ์Šค๋Ÿฝ๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด์•„์•ผ ํ•ด์š”.
34:57
I mean, nobody really knows what the job market will look like
677
2097878
2971
2040, 2050๋…„์— ๋…ธ๋™์‹œ์žฅ์ด ์–ด๋–ค ๋ชจ์Šต์ผ์ง€๋Š”
35:00
in 2040, 2050.
678
2100873
1690
์•„๋ฌด๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฅด๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
35:02
There is a chance many new jobs will appear,
679
2102587
2708
์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์ง์—…์ด ๋งŽ์ด ์ƒ๊ฒจ๋‚  ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด ์žˆ์ง€๋งŒ
35:05
but it's not certain.
680
2105319
1754
ํ™•์‹คํ•œ ๊ฑด ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
35:07
And even if new jobs do appear,
681
2107097
2211
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ƒˆ ์ง์—…์ด ์ƒ๊ฒจ๋‚œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ•ด๋„
35:09
it won't necessarily be easy
682
2109332
1984
์ž์œจ์ฃผํ–‰ ์ž๋™์ฐจ์—๊ฒŒ ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋นผ์•—๊ธด
35:11
for a 50-year old unemployed truck driver
683
2111340
2999
๋ฌด์ง์ธ 50์„ธ ํŠธ๋Ÿญ ์šด์ „์‚ฌ๊ฐ€
35:14
made unemployed by self-driving vehicles,
684
2114363
3033
๊ฐ€์ƒ ์„ธ๊ณ„์˜ ๋””์ž์ด๋„ˆ๋กœ
35:17
it won't be easy for an unemployed truck driver
685
2117420
3653
๋ณธ์ธ์„ ์žฌ๊ณ„๋ฐœํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด
35:21
to reinvent himself or herself as a designer of virtual worlds.
686
2121097
4786
์‰ฌ์šด ์ผ์ด ์•„๋‹ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
35:25
Previously, if you look at the trajectory of the industrial revolution,
687
2125907
4182
์‚ฐ์—… ํ˜๋ช…์˜ ๊ถค์ ์„ ์‚ดํŽด๋ณด๋ฉด
35:30
when machines replaced humans in one type of work,
688
2130113
4157
ํ•œ ์ข…๋ฅ˜์˜ ๋…ธ๋™์—์„œ ๊ธฐ๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ์ธ๊ฐ„์„ ๋Œ€์ฒดํ–ˆ์„ ๋•Œ
35:34
the solution usually came from low-skill work
689
2134294
4281
ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ…์€ ์ฃผ๋กœ ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์‚ฌ์—…๋ถ€๋ฌธ์—์„œ์˜
35:38
in new lines of business.
690
2138599
2588
์ €์ˆ™๋ จ ๋…ธ๋™์—์„œ ๋‚˜์™”์–ด์š”.
35:41
So you didn't need any more agricultural workers,
691
2141211
3402
๋†์—…์— ์ข…์‚ฌํ•˜๋Š” ์ธ๋ ฅ์ด ๋” ์ด์ƒ ํ•„์š”ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜๊ธฐ์—
35:44
so people moved to working in low-skill industrial jobs,
692
2144637
5414
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ €์ˆ™๋ จ์˜ ๊ณต์žฅ์ผ์„ ํ•˜๋Ÿฌ ์ด์‚ฌ๋ฅผ ๊ฐ”์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
35:50
and when this was taken away by more and more machines,
693
2150075
3469
์ด ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ๊ธฐ๊ณ„๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋นผ์•—๊ธฐ์ž
35:53
people moved to low-skill service jobs.
694
2153568
2970
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ €์ˆ™๋ จ์˜ ์„œ๋น„์Šค ์ง์—…์œผ๋กœ ์˜ฎ๊ฒจ๊ฐ”์–ด์š”.
35:56
Now, when people say there will be new jobs in the future,
695
2156562
3360
๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์ง์—…์ด ์ƒ๊ธธ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ ,
35:59
that humans can do better than AI,
696
2159946
2429
์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ž˜ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ 
36:02
that humans can do better than robots,
697
2162399
1830
์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ๋กœ๋ด‡๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ž˜ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ 
36:04
they usually think about high-skill jobs,
698
2164253
2640
๋งํ•˜๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๊ณ ์ˆ™๋ จ์ง์„ ์ฃผ๋กœ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
36:06
like software engineers designing virtual worlds.
699
2166917
3871
๊ฐ€์ƒ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ๋””์ž์ธํ•˜๋Š” ์†Œํ”„ํŠธ์›จ์–ด ๊ณตํ•™์ž๊ฐ™์ด์š”.
36:10
Now, I don't see how an unemployed cashier from Wal-Mart
700
2170812
5394
์‹ค์งํ•œ ์›”๋งˆํŠธ ๊ณ„์‚ฐ์›์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ 50์„ธ์—
36:16
reinvents herself or himself at 50 as a designer of virtual worlds,
701
2176230
4623
๊ฐ€์ƒ ์„ธ๊ณ„ ๋””์ž์ด๋„ˆ๋กœ ์ƒˆ๋กญ๊ฒŒ ํƒœ์–ด๋‚  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€ ์ €๋Š” ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ๊ณ ์š”.
36:20
and certainly I don't see
702
2180877
1471
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋‘๋งํ•  ๊ฒƒ๋„ ์—†์ด
36:22
how the millions of unemployed Bangladeshi textile workers
703
2182372
3467
๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ์˜ ์ˆ˜๋ฐฑ๋งŒ ๋ช…์˜ ์‹ค์งํ•œ ์ง๋ฌผ๊ณต๋“ค์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ
36:25
will be able to do that.
704
2185863
1611
๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ฒ ์–ด์š”.
36:27
I mean, if they are going to do it,
705
2187498
1720
๋งŒ์•ฝ ๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ์ž๊ธฐ๊ณ„๋ฐœ์„ ํ•  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๋ฉด
36:29
we need to start teaching the Bangladeshis today
706
2189242
3356
๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ์ธ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ์ง€๊ธˆ๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ์†Œํ”„ํŠธ์›จ์–ด ๋””์ž์ด๋„ˆ๊ฐ€ ๋˜๋Š” ๋ฒ•์„
36:32
how to be software designers,
707
2192622
1754
๊ฐ€๋ฅด์ณ์•ผ ํ•ด์š”.
36:34
and we are not doing it.
708
2194400
1243
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ  ์žˆ์ฃ .
36:35
So what will they do in 20 years?
709
2195667
2491
๊ทธ๋Ÿผ ์ด ๋ถ„๋“ค์€ 20๋…„ ๋’ค์— ๋ญ˜ ํ•˜์ฃ ?
36:38
CA: So it feels like you're really highlighting a question
710
2198182
3914
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ตœ๊ทผ ๋ช‡ ๋‹ฌ ๊ฐ„ ์ €๋ฅผ ์ ์  ๋” ๋งŽ์ด ๊ดด๋กญํžˆ๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”
36:42
that's really been bugging me the last few months more and more.
711
2202120
4183
ํ•œ ์˜๋ฌธ์„ ์ •๋ง ๋ถ€๊ฐ์‹œํ‚ค๊ณ  ๊ณ„์‹  ๋Š๋‚Œ์ด์—์š”.
36:46
It's almost a hard question to ask in public,
712
2206327
2855
๊ณต๊ฐœ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ฌป๊ธฐ์—๋Š” ๋งค์šฐ ์–ด๋ ค์šด ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค๋งŒ,
36:49
but if any mind has some wisdom to offer in it, maybe it's yours,
713
2209206
3391
์—ฌ๊ธฐ์— ํ˜œ์•ˆ์„ ๋‚˜๋ˆ„์–ด์ฃผ์‹ค ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ถ„์ด ๊ณ„์‹œ๋‹ค๋ฉด ๋ฐ”๋กœ ์œ ๋ฐœ์ผ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
36:52
so I'm going to ask you:
714
2212621
1545
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์—ฌ์ญค๋ณด๊ฒ ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
36:54
What are humans for?
715
2214190
1878
์ธ๊ฐ„์€ ๋ฌด์—‡์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ํƒœ์–ด๋‚ฌ๋‚˜์š”?
36:57
YNH: As far as we know, for nothing.
716
2217052
1934
์œ ๋ฐœ: ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์•Œ๊ธฐ๋กœ์„œ๋Š” ์•„๋ฌด ์šฉ๋„๊ฐ€ ์—†์–ด์š”.
36:59
(Laughter)
717
2219010
1712
(์›ƒ์Œ)
37:00
I mean, there is no great cosmic drama, some great cosmic plan,
718
2220746
5526
์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒŒ ๋ฐฐ์—ญ์ด ์ฃผ์–ด์ง„ ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์šฐ์ฃผ์  ์—ฐ๊ทน๋„ ์—†๊ณ ,
37:06
that we have a role to play in.
719
2226296
2841
์œ„๋Œ€ํ•œ ์šฐ์ฃผ์  ๊ณ„ํš๋„ ์—†์–ด์š”.
37:09
And we just need to discover what our role is
720
2229161
3024
๊ทธ์ € ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์—ญํ• ์„ ์ฐพ์•„๋‚ด์„œ
37:12
and then play it to the best of our ability.
721
2232209
2992
๋Šฅ๋ ฅ๊ป ์ตœ์„ ์„ ๋‹คํ•ด ๊ทธ ์—ญํ• ์„ ํ•˜๋Š” ์ˆ˜๋ฐ–์— ์—†์–ด์š”.
37:15
This has been the story of all religions and ideologies and so forth,
722
2235225
4978
์ด๊ฒŒ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ข…๊ต์™€ ์ด๋ฐ์˜ฌ๋กœ๊ธฐ ๋“ฑ์—์„œ ์ œ์‹œํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์ด์ง€๋งŒ,
37:20
but as a scientist, the best I can say is this is not true.
723
2240227
3478
๊ณผํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ ์ œ๊ฐ€ ํ•ด์ค„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ง์€ ์ด๊ฒŒ ์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
37:23
There is no universal drama with a role in it for Homo sapiens.
724
2243729
5358
ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค๋ฅผ ์œ„ํ•œ ๋ฐฐ์—ญ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ์šฐ์ฃผ์  ์—ฐ๊ทน์€ ์—†์–ด์š”.
37:29
So --
725
2249111
1681
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ-
37:30
CA: I'm going to push back on you just for a minute,
726
2250816
2493
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ž ์‹œ ๋ฐ˜๋ก ์„ ์ œ๊ธฐํ• ๊ฒŒ์š”.
37:33
just from your own book,
727
2253333
1194
์œ ๋ฐœ์˜ ์ €์„œ๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋ฉด
37:34
because in "Homo Deus,"
728
2254551
1324
"ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ๋ฐ์šฐ์Šค" ์ฑ…์—์„œ
37:35
you give really one of the most coherent and understandable accounts
729
2255899
5059
๋‹น์‹ ์€ ์–‘์‹ฌ์ด๋‚˜ ์˜์‹๊ณผ, ์ธ๊ฐ„์—๊ฒŒ๋งŒ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
37:40
about sentience, about consciousness,
730
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2232
๊ฐ€์žฅ ๋…ผ๋ฆฌ์ ์ด๊ณ  ์ดํ•ดํ•  ๋งŒํ•œ
37:43
and that unique sort of human skill.
731
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๊ฒฌํ•ด๋ฅผ ์ œ์‹œํ•˜๊ณ  ๊ณ„์„ธ์š”.
37:46
You point out that it's different from intelligence,
732
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2493
์ด ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ๋“ค์ด ๊ธฐ๊ณ„ ์•ˆ์— ํƒ‘์žฌ์‹œํ‚ค๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”
37:48
the intelligence that we're building in machines,
733
2268737
2334
์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ๋Š” ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ณ 
37:51
and that there's actually a lot of mystery around it.
734
2271095
3658
์ด ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ๋“ค์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ’€๋ฆฌ์ง€ ์•Š์€ ์˜๋ฌธ๋“ค์ด ๋งŽ์ด ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ ์š”.
37:54
How can you be sure there's no purpose
735
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3377
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ฐ๊ฐ์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ์ง€ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜์ง€๋„ ๋ชปํ•˜๋Š”๋ฐ
37:58
when we don't even understand what this sentience thing is?
736
2278178
4051
์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋ชฉ์ ์ด ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ™•์‹ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์œผ์„ธ์š”?
38:02
I mean, in your own thinking, isn't there a chance
737
2282253
2576
์œ ๋ฐœ ์”จ๊ฐ€ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ธฐ์— ์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ์กด์žฌํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์œ ๊ฐ€
38:04
that what humans are for is to be the universe's sentient things,
738
2284853
4312
์šฐ์ฃผ์—์„œ ์ง€๊ฐ์žˆ๋Š” ์กด์žฌ๊ฐ€ ๋˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ์ด๊ฑฐ๋‚˜,
38:09
to be the centers of joy and love and happiness and hope?
739
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3423
์ฆ๊ฑฐ์›€๊ณผ ์‚ฌ๋ž‘๊ณผ ํ–‰๋ณต๊ณผ ํฌ๋ง์˜ ์ค‘์‹ฌ์ด ๋˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ์ผ ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„œ์€ ์—†๋‚˜์š”?
38:12
And maybe we can build machines that actually help amplify that,
740
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3035
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ทธ๊ฑธ ์ฆํญ์‹œํ‚ค๋Š” ๋ฐ ๋„์›€๋˜๋Š” ๊ธฐ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ๋งŒ๋“ค ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์ž–์•„์š”.
38:15
even if they're not going to become sentient themselves?
741
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2664
๊ธฐ๊ณ„๋Š” ์ง€๊ฐ ์žˆ๋Š” ์กด์žฌ๊ฐ€ ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ•ด๋„ ๋ง์ด์—์š”.
38:18
Is that crazy?
742
2298383
1151
๋ง๋„ ์•ˆ ๋˜๋Š” ์ƒ๊ฐ์ธ๊ฐ€์š”?
38:19
I kind of found myself hoping that, reading your book.
743
2299558
3483
์œ ๋ฐœ์˜ ์ฑ…์„ ์ฝ์œผ๋ฉด์„œ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๊ฑธ ์†Œ๋งํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
38:23
YNH: Well, I certainly think that the most interesting question today in science
744
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ๊ณผํ•™๋ถ„์•ผ์—์„œ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ํฅ๋ฏธ๋กœ์šด ์งˆ๋ฌธ์€ ๋ฌผ๋ก 
38:26
is the question of consciousness and the mind.
745
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2423
์ •์‹ ๊ณผ ์˜์‹์ผ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
38:29
We are getting better and better in understanding the brain
746
2309393
3498
์šฐ๋ฆฐ ๋‡Œ์™€ ์ง€๋Šฅ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ ์  ๋” ๋งŽ์ด
38:32
and intelligence,
747
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1260
์•Œ์•„๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
38:34
but we are not getting much better
748
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2537
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ •์‹ ๊ณผ ์˜์‹์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”
38:36
in understanding the mind and consciousness.
749
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2343
์ •์ฒด๋˜์–ด ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
38:39
People often confuse intelligence and consciousness,
750
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3362
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ข…์ข… ์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ ์˜์‹์„ ํ˜ผ๋™ํ•ด์š”.
38:42
especially in places like Silicon Valley,
751
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2299
ํŠนํžˆ๋‚˜ ์‹ค๋ฆฌ์ฝ˜ ๋ฐธ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ™์€ ๊ณณ์—์„œ๋Š”์š”.
38:44
which is understandable, because in humans, they go together.
752
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3757
๊ทธ๋Ÿด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”. ์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ธ๊ฐ„์€ ๊ทธ ๋‘˜์ด ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์žˆ์ž–์•„์š”.
38:48
I mean, intelligence basically is the ability to solve problems.
753
2328617
3579
์ง€๋Šฅ์€ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์ด์—์š”.
38:52
Consciousness is the ability to feel things,
754
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2542
์˜์‹์€ ๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ๋Š๋‚„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”
38:54
to feel joy and sadness and boredom and pain and so forth.
755
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5212
์ฆ๊ฑฐ์›€๊ณผ ์Šฌํ””๊ณผ ์ง€๋ฃจํ•จ๊ณผ ๊ณ ํ†ต ๋“ฑ์„ ๋Š๋‚„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์ด์—์š”.
39:00
In Homo sapiens and all other mammals as well -- it's not unique to humans --
756
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4039
ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค์™€, ์ธ๊ฐ„ ๊ณ ์œ ์˜ ํŠน์„ฑ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๊ธฐ์— ๋ชจ๋“  ํฌ์œ ๋ฅ˜๋“ค๊ณผ,
39:04
in all mammals and birds and some other animals,
757
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2647
์ƒˆ์™€ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋™๋ฌผ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ
39:06
intelligence and consciousness go together.
758
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2650
์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ ์˜์‹์€ ๊ฐ™์ด ๊ฐ€์š”.
39:09
We often solve problems by feeling things.
759
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3578
๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ๋Š๋‚Œ์œผ๋กœ์จ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋ฅผ ํ•ด๊ฒฐํ•˜๊ธฐ๋„ ํ•˜์ž–์•„์š”.
39:13
So we tend to confuse them.
760
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1493
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ํ˜ผ๋™ํ•˜๊ณค ํ•˜์ฃ .
39:14
But they are different things.
761
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1465
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋‘˜์€ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
39:16
What's happening today in places like Silicon Valley
762
2356038
3088
์‹ค๋ฆฌ์ฝ˜ ๋ฐธ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ™์€ ๊ณณ์—์„œ ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ์€
39:19
is that we are creating artificial intelligence
763
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3626
์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ์„ ๋งŒ๋“ค๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์ง€
39:22
but not artificial consciousness.
764
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1822
์ธ๊ณต์˜์‹์„ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
39:24
There has been an amazing development in computer intelligence
765
2364646
3380
์ง€๋‚œ 50๋…„๊ฐ„ ์ปดํ“จํ„ฐ ์ง€๋Šฅ ๋ถ„์•ผ์—์„œ๋Š”
39:28
over the last 50 years,
766
2368050
1562
๋†€๋ผ์šด ๋ฐœ์ „์ด ์žˆ์—ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
39:29
and exactly zero development in computer consciousness,
767
2369636
4201
์ปดํ“จํ„ฐ ์˜์‹์—๋Š” ์•„๋ฌด๋Ÿฐ ์ง„์ „์ด ์—†์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
39:33
and there is no indication that computers are going to become conscious
768
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3686
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ฐ€๊นŒ์šด ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ์ปดํ“จํ„ฐ๊ฐ€
39:37
anytime soon.
769
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2531
์˜์‹์„ ๊ฐ–๊ฒŒ ๋  ์ผ์€ ์—†์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
39:40
So first of all, if there is some cosmic role for consciousness,
770
2380126
5650
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์šฐ์„ , ์˜์‹์— ์šฐ์ฃผ์ ์ธ ์—ญํ• ์ด ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ•˜๋ฉด,
39:45
it's not unique to Homo sapiens.
771
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2130
์˜์‹์€ ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค๋งŒ์˜ ๊ฒƒ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
39:47
Cows are conscious, pigs are conscious,
772
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2319
์†Œ์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ์žˆ๊ณ , ๋ผ์ง€์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
39:50
chimpanzees are conscious, chickens are conscious,
773
2390297
2833
์นจํŒฌ์ง€๋„ ์žˆ๊ณ , ๋‹ญ๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
39:53
so if we go that way, first of all, we need to broaden our horizons
774
2393154
3853
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋ฉด, ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์‹œ์•ผ๋ฅผ ๋„“ํ˜€์„œ
39:57
and remember very clearly we are not the only sentient beings on Earth,
775
2397031
4725
์ง€๊ตฌ์ƒ์—์„œ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋งŒ ์ง€๊ฐ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฑธ ๋˜‘๋˜‘ํžˆ ์•Œ์•„์•ผํ•ด์š”.
40:01
and when it comes to sentience --
776
2401780
1795
์ง€๊ฐ๋ ฅ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”
40:03
when it comes to intelligence, there is good reason to think
777
2403599
3312
์ง€๋Šฅ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”, ๋ชจ๋“  ์ƒ๋ฌผ ์ค‘์— ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ€์žฅ
40:06
we are the most intelligent of the whole bunch.
778
2406935
3296
์ง€๋Šฅ์ด ๋†’๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋„ ๋  ์ถฉ๋ถ„ํ•œ ๊ทผ๊ฑฐ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
40:10
But when it comes to sentience,
779
2410255
2574
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ง€๊ฐ๋ ฅ์— ๊ด€ํ•ด์„œ๋Š”
40:12
to say that humans are more sentient than whales,
780
2412853
3158
์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ๊ณ ๋ž˜๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ง€๊ฐ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ฑฐ๋‚˜
40:16
or more sentient than baboons or more sentient than cats,
781
2416035
4147
๊ฐœ์ฝ” ์›์ˆญ์ด๋ณด๋‹ค, ๊ณ ์–‘์ด๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์ง€๊ฐ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋งํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด ๊ทผ๊ฑฐ๊ฐ€ ์—†์–ด์š”.
40:20
I see no evidence for that.
782
2420206
2294
40:22
So first step is, you go in that direction, expand.
783
2422524
3607
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๊ทธ ๋ฐฉํ–ฅ์œผ๋กœ ๊ฐˆ๊ฑฐ๋ฉด ์šฐ์„  ๋ฒ”์œ„๋ฅผ ํ™•์žฅํ•˜์„ธ์š”.
40:26
And then the second question of what is it for,
784
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3982
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ง€๊ฐ๋ ฅ์˜ ์šฉ๋„๊ฐ€ ๋ฌด์—‡์ด๋ƒ๋Š” ๋‘ ๋ฒˆ์งธ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์—๋Š”
40:30
I would reverse it
785
2430161
1782
์ €๋Š” ๊ทธ๊ฑธ ์—ญ์œผ๋กœ ๋’ค์ง‘์–ด์„œ
40:31
and I would say that I don't think sentience is for anything.
786
2431967
4236
์ง€๊ฐ๋ ฅ์— ์šฉ๋„๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”๋‹ค๋Š” ๋‹ต์„ ๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ์š”.
40:36
I think we don't need to find our role in the universe.
787
2436227
4172
์ €๋Š” ์šฐ์ฃผ์—์„œ์˜ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์—ญํ• ์„ ์ฐพ์„ ํ•„์š”๊ฐ€ ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
40:40
The really important thing is to liberate ourselves from suffering.
788
2440423
5813
์ •๋ง ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ์ผ์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต์œผ๋กœ๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ์ž์œ ๋กญ๊ฒŒ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์ฃ .
40:46
What characterizes sentient beings
789
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2993
๋กœ๋ด‡์ด๋‚˜ ๋Œ์ด๋‚˜ ๋ฌด์—‡์ด๋“ ์ง€๊ฐ„์—
40:49
in contrast to robots, to stones,
790
2449277
2720
๊ทธ๊ฒƒ๋“ค๊ณผ ๋‹ค๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ์ง€๊ฐ ์žˆ๋Š” ์กด์žฌ๋ฅผ
40:52
to whatever,
791
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1183
ํŠน์ง•์ง“๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
40:53
is that sentient beings suffer, can suffer,
792
2453228
3791
์ง€๊ฐ ์žˆ๋Š” ์กด์žฌ๋“ค์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต์„ ๋Š๋‚„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
40:57
and what they should focus on
793
2457043
2340
๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ์ง‘์ค‘ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
40:59
is not finding their place in some mysterious cosmic drama.
794
2459407
4120
๋ฏธ์ง€์˜ ์šฐ์ฃผ์  ๋“œ๋ผ๋งˆ ์†์˜ ๋ณธ์ธ์˜ ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ์ฐพ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
41:03
They should focus on understanding what suffering is,
795
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3819
๊ณ ํ†ต์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ์ง€ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๊ณ , ๋ฌด์—‡์ด ๊ทธ ์›์ธ์ด ๋˜๋Š”์ง€
41:07
what causes it and how to be liberated from it.
796
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3359
์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๊ทธ๋กœ๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ์ž์œ ๋กœ์›Œ์งˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ์ง‘์ค‘ํ•ด์•ผ์ฃ .
41:11
CA: I know this is a big issue for you, and that was very eloquent.
797
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3477
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ด๊ฒŒ ์œ ๋ฐœ์—๊ฒŒ ์ค‘์š”ํ•˜๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ ์••๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์ •๋ง ์ž˜ ๋ง์”€ํ•ด ์ฃผ์…จ์–ด์š”.
41:14
We're going to have a blizzard of questions from the audience here,
798
2474893
3414
์—ฌ๊ธฐ ์ฒญ์ค‘๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋งŽ์ด ๋ฐ›๊ฒ ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
41:18
and maybe from Facebook as well,
799
2478331
1920
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์‹œ์ฒญ์ž๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ๋„์š”.
41:20
and maybe some comments as well.
800
2480275
1673
์†Œ๊ฐ๋„ ๋ช‡ ๋งˆ๋”” ๋“ค์„๊ฒŒ์š”.
41:21
So let's go quick.
801
2481972
1796
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋นจ๋ฆฌ ์ง„ํ–‰ํ• ๊ฒŒ์š”.
41:23
There's one right here.
802
2483792
1430
์—ฌ๊ธฐ ํ•œ ๋ถ„ ๊ณ„์‹œ๋„ค์š”.
41:26
Keep your hands held up at the back if you want the mic,
803
2486872
2809
๋’ค์ชฝ์— ๊ณ„์‹  ๋ถ„๋“ค์€ ๋งˆ์ดํฌ๋ฅผ ์›ํ•˜์‹œ๋ฉด ์†์„ ๋“ค๊ณ  ๊ณ„์„ธ์š”.
41:29
and we'll get it back to you.
804
2489705
1419
๊ทธ๋Ÿผ ๋งˆ์น˜๊ณ  ๊ฐ€์ ธ๋‹ค ๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ์š”.
41:31
Question: In your work, you talk a lot about the fictional stories
805
2491148
3119
์งˆ๋ฌธ: ์ €์„œ์—์„œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์ง„์‹ค๋กœ ๋ฐ›์•„๋“ค์ด๊ณ , ์‹ ์กฐ๋กœ ์‚ผ๋Š”
41:34
that we accept as truth,
806
2494291
1344
ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
41:35
and we live our lives by it.
807
2495659
1717
๋งŽ์ด ์–˜๊ธฐํ•˜๊ณ  ๊ณ„์„ธ์š”.
41:37
As an individual, knowing that,
808
2497400
2499
๊ฐœ์ธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๊ทธ ์‚ฌ์‹ค์„ ์•Œ๋ฉด
41:39
how does it impact the stories that you choose to live your life,
809
2499923
3746
๋ณธ์ธ์ด ์ธ์ƒ์—์„œ ์ข‡์•„ ์‚ด๋ ค๊ณ  ํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋“ค์— ์–ด๋–ค ์˜ํ–ฅ์„ ์ฃผ๋‚˜์š”?
41:43
and do you confuse them with the truth, like all of us?
810
2503693
3740
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์œ ๋ฐœ๋„ ๊ทธ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋“ค์„ ์ €ํฌ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ์ง„์‹ค๊ณผ ํ˜ผ๋™ํ•˜์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
41:48
YNH: I try not to.
811
2508066
1211
์œ ๋ฐœ: ์•ˆ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋ ค๊ณ  ๋…ธ๋ ฅํ•˜์ฃ .
41:49
I mean, for me, maybe the most important question,
812
2509301
2768
์ œ๊ฒŒ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ๋ฌผ์Œ์€
41:52
both as a scientist and as a person,
813
2512093
2478
๊ณผํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ๋‚˜ ์ธ๊ฐ„์œผ๋กœ์„œ๋‚˜
41:54
is how to tell the difference between fiction and reality,
814
2514595
3875
ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์™€ ํ˜„์‹ค์˜ ์ฐจ์ด๋ฅผ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๊ตฌ๋ถ„ํ•˜๋Š๋ƒ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
41:58
because reality is there.
815
2518494
2596
์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ํ˜„์‹ค์€ ๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ ์žˆ์ž–์•„์š”.
42:01
I'm not saying that everything is fiction.
816
2521114
2082
๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒŒ ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋งํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
42:03
It's just very difficult for human beings to tell the difference
817
2523220
3052
์ธ๊ฐ„์œผ๋กœ์„œ ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์™€ ํ˜„์‹ค์˜ ์ฐจ์ด๋ฅผ
42:06
between fiction and reality,
818
2526296
1617
๊ตฌ๋ถ„ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ๋งค์šฐ ํž˜๋“ ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
42:07
and it has become more and more difficult as history progressed,
819
2527937
4945
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์—ญ์‚ฌ๊ฐ€ ์ง„๋ณดํ•˜๋ฉด์„œ ์ ์  ๋” ์–ด๋ ค์›Œ์กŒ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:12
because the fictions that we have created --
820
2532906
2451
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋งŒ๋“ค์–ด๋‚ธ ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ๋“ค์ด
42:15
nations and gods and money and corporations --
821
2535381
3168
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์™€ ์‹ ๊ณผ ๋ˆ๊ณผ ๊ธฐ์—…์ด
42:18
they now control the world.
822
2538573
1510
์ด์ œ๋Š” ์„ธ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ์ง€๋ฐฐํ•˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
42:20
So just to even think,
823
2540107
1177
๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
42:21
"Oh, this is just all fictional entities that we've created,"
824
2541308
3145
"์ด๊ฑด ๋ชจ๋‘ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋งŒ๋“ค์–ด๋‚ธ ๊ฐ€์ƒ์˜ ์กด์žฌ๋“ค์ด์•ผ."๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
42:24
is very difficult.
825
2544477
1447
๋งค์šฐ ์–ด๋ ค์šด ์ผ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:25
But reality is there.
826
2545948
2280
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ํ˜„์‹ค์€ ๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ ์žˆ์ž–์•„์š”.
42:28
For me the best ...
827
2548863
2005
์ €ํ•œํ…Œ ์ตœ์„ ์€...
42:30
There are several tests
828
2550892
2123
๊ฐ€์ƒ๊ณผ ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ๊ตฌ๋ถ„ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•œ
42:33
to tell the difference between fiction and reality.
829
2553039
2770
ํ…Œ์ŠคํŠธ๊ฐ€ ๋ช‡ ๊ฐœ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:35
The simplest one, the best one that I can say in short,
830
2555833
3426
๊ฐ€์žฅ ๊ฐ„๋‹จํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด, ๊ฐ„๋žตํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ๊ธฐ์— ๊ฐ€์žฅ ์ข‹์€ ๊ฒƒ์ด
42:39
is the test of suffering.
831
2559283
1581
๊ณ ํ†ต ํ…Œ์ŠคํŠธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:40
If it can suffer, it's real.
832
2560888
1553
๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉด ์ง„์งœ์ด๊ณ 
42:43
If it can't suffer, it's not real.
833
2563012
1694
๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์œผ๋ฉด ์ง„์งœ๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:44
A nation cannot suffer.
834
2564730
1465
๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋Š” ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์ฃ .
42:46
That's very, very clear.
835
2566219
1570
์ •๋ง ๋งค์šฐ ๋ช…ํ™•ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:47
Even if a nation loses a war,
836
2567813
1938
๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์ „์Ÿ์—์„œ ํŒจ๋ฐฐํ•ด๋„
42:49
we say, "Germany suffered a defeat in the First World War,"
837
2569775
4065
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š”, "๋…์ผ์ด ์ œ1์ฐจ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋Œ€์ „์˜ ํŒจ๋ฐฐ๋ฅผ ๊ฒช์—ˆ์–ด."๋ผ๊ณ  ๋งํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
42:53
it's a metaphor.
838
2573864
1165
๋น„์œ ์  ํ‘œํ˜„์ด์ฃ .
42:55
Germany cannot suffer. Germany has no mind.
839
2575053
2557
๋…์ผ์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์–ด์š”. ๋…์ผ์€ ์ •์‹ ์ด ์—†์–ด์š”.
42:57
Germany has no consciousness.
840
2577634
1653
๋…์ผ์€ ์˜์‹์ด ์—†์–ด์š”.
42:59
Germans can suffer, yes, but Germany cannot.
841
2579311
3658
๋…์ผ์ธ๋“ค์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์ฃ . ๋งž์•„์š”. ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋…์ผ์€ ์•„๋‹ˆ์—์š”.
43:02
Similarly, when a bank goes bust,
842
2582993
2969
๋˜‘๊ฐ™์ด, ์€ํ–‰์ด ํŒŒ์‚ฐํ•˜๋ฉด
43:05
the bank cannot suffer.
843
2585986
1771
์€ํ–‰์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์–ด์š”.
43:07
When the dollar loses its value, the dollar doesn't suffer.
844
2587781
3391
๋‹ฌ๋Ÿฌ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ€์น˜๋ฅผ ์žƒ์œผ๋ฉด ๋‹ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋Š” ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
43:11
People can suffer. Animals can suffer.
845
2591196
2250
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๊ณผ ๋™๋ฌผ๋“ค์€ ๊ณ ํ†ต์„ ๋Š๋‚„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
43:13
This is real.
846
2593470
1156
๊ทธ๊ฑด ์‹ค์žฌ์˜ˆ์š”.
43:14
So I would start, if you really want to see reality,
847
2594650
4529
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ €๋Š” ์‹œ์ž‘์„, ์ •๋ง๋กœ ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ๋ณด๊ณ  ์‹ถ๋‹ค๋ฉด
43:19
I would go through the door of suffering.
848
2599203
2064
๊ณ ํ†ต์„ ๋ฌธ์„ ์ง€๋‚˜๊ฐ€๋ณผ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
43:21
If you can really understand what suffering is,
849
2601291
2954
๊ณ ํ†ต์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ์ง€ ์ง„์‹ค๋กœ ์ดํ•ดํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด
43:24
this will give you also the key
850
2604269
2223
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ํ˜„์‹ค์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ์ง€๋ฅผ
43:26
to understand what reality is.
851
2606516
2017
์ดํ•ดํ•˜๋Š” ์—ด์‡ ๋ฅผ ์ค„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
43:28
CA: There's a Facebook question here that connects to this,
852
2608557
2783
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์ด ๋‚ด์šฉ๊ณผ ์ด์–ด์ง€๋Š” ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
43:31
from someone around the world in a language that I cannot read.
853
2611364
2977
์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ฝ์ง€ ๋ชปํ•˜๋Š” ์„ธ์ƒ ์–ด๋”˜๊ฐ€์˜ ์–ธ์–ด๋ฅผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ถ„์˜ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด์—์š”.
43:34
YNH: Oh, it's Hebrew. CA: Hebrew. There you go.
854
2614365
2217
์œ ๋ฐœ: ํžˆ๋ธŒ๋ฆฌ์–ด๋„ค์š”. ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํžˆ๋ธŒ๋ฆฌ์–ด๊ตฐ์š”. ๋๋„ค์š”.
43:36
(Laughter)
855
2616606
1062
(์›ƒ์Œ)
43:37
Can you read the name?
856
2617692
1164
์ด๋ฆ„ ์ฝ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์œผ์‹ ๊ฐ€์š”?
43:38
YNH: Or Lauterbach Goren.
857
2618880
1875
์œ ๋ฐœ: ์˜ค์–ด ๋ผ์šฐํ„ฐ๋ฐ”ํ ๊ณ ๋ Œ.
43:40
CA: Well, thank you for writing in.
858
2620779
1844
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์งˆ๋ฌธ ๋‚จ๊ฒจ์ฃผ์…”์„œ ๊ฐ์‚ฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
43:42
The question is: "Is the post-truth era really a brand-new era,
859
2622647
4555
์งˆ๋ฌธ ๋‚ด์šฉ์€ "ํƒˆ์ง„์‹ค์˜ ์‹œ๋Œ€๊ฐ€ ์ •๋ง ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์‹œ๋Œ€์ธ๊ฐ€์š”
43:47
or just another climax or moment in a never-ending trend?
860
2627226
4387
์•„๋‹ˆ๋ฉด ๋์ด ์—†๋Š” ๋™ํ–ฅ์˜ ๋˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ ˆ์ •์ด๋‚˜ ์ˆœ๊ฐ„์ธ๊ฐ€์š”?"
43:52
YNH: Personally, I don't connect with this idea of post-truth.
861
2632521
3329
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๊ฐœ์ธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์ €๋Š” ํƒˆ์ง„์‹ค์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฐœ๋…์— ๊ณต๊ฐํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
43:55
My basic reaction as a historian is:
862
2635874
2708
๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ์—ญ์‚ฌํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ ์ œ ๋ฐ˜์‘์€
43:58
If this is the era of post-truth, when the hell was the era of truth?
863
2638606
3895
์ง€๊ธˆ์ด ํƒˆ์ง„์‹ค์˜ ์‹œ๋Œ€๋ผ๋ฉด ๋Œ€์ฒด ์ง„์‹ค์˜ ์‹œ๋Œ€๋Š” ์–ธ์ œ์˜€๋Š”๋ฐ?
44:02
CA: Right.
864
2642525
1251
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ตฐ์š”.
44:03
(Laughter)
865
2643800
1320
(์›ƒ์Œ)
44:05
YNH: Was it the 1980s, the 1950s, the Middle Ages?
866
2645144
4683
์œ ๋ฐœ: 1980๋…„๋Œ€์˜€๋‚˜? 1950๋…„๋Œ€? ์ค‘์„ธ์‹œ๋Œ€?
44:09
I mean, we have always lived in an era, in a way, of post-truth.
867
2649851
4392
์–ด์ฐŒ๋ณด๋ฉด ์šฐ๋ฆฐ ์–ธ์ œ๋‚˜ ํƒˆ์ง„์‹ค์˜ ์‹œ๋Œ€ ์†์— ์‚ด์•„์™”์–ด์š”.
44:14
CA: But I'd push back on that,
868
2654703
2311
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๋ฐ˜๋ก ์„ ์ข€ ์ œ๊ธฐํ• ๊ฒŒ์š”.
44:17
because I think what people are talking about
869
2657038
2670
์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๋งํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
44:19
is that there was a world where you had fewer journalistic outlets,
870
2659732
6960
๋งค์ฒด์˜ ์ข…๋ฅ˜๊ฐ€ ๋” ์ ๊ณ , ๋‚ด์šฉ๋“ค์„ ์‚ฌ์‹ค ํ™•์ธํ–ˆ๋˜
44:26
where there were traditions, that things were fact-checked.
871
2666716
3648
์ „ํ†ต์ด ์žˆ๋˜ ์„ธ์ƒ์ด ์žˆ์—ˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
44:30
It was incorporated into the charter of those organizations
872
2670388
3945
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์ง„์‹ค์„ ์ค‘์š”ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ์—ฌ๊ธฐ๋Š” ๋‹จ์ฒด๋“ค์˜ ํ—Œ์žฅ์—
44:34
that the truth mattered.
873
2674357
2167
ํ†ตํ•ฉ๋˜์—ˆ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
44:36
So if you believe in a reality,
874
2676548
1749
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ๋ฏฟ์œผ๋ฉด
44:38
then what you write is information.
875
2678321
2223
์ •๋ณด๋ฅผ ์ž‘์„ฑํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
44:40
There was a belief that that information should connect to reality in a real way,
876
2680568
3821
์ •๋ณด๋Š” ์‹ค์งˆ์ ์œผ๋กœ ํ˜„์‹ค๊ณผ ๊ด€๋ จ์žˆ์–ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๋ฏฟ์Œ์ด ์กด์žฌํ–ˆ์–ด์š”.
44:44
and if you wrote a headline, it was a serious, earnest attempt
877
2684413
2961
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ํ—ค๋“œ๋ผ์ธ์„ ์“ฐ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€ ์‹ค์ œ ์ผ์–ด๋‚œ ๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ
44:47
to reflect something that had actually happened.
878
2687398
2303
๋ฐ˜์˜ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•œ ์ง„์‹ค๋˜๊ณ  ์ง„์ง€ํ•œ ๋…ธ๋ ฅ์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
44:49
And people didn't always get it right.
879
2689725
1851
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ํ•ญ์ƒ ๋งž์ง„ ์•Š์•˜์ง€๋งŒ
44:51
But I think the concern now is you've got
880
2691600
2009
์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์— ์ง€๊ธˆ์˜ ์šฐ๋ ค๋Š”
44:53
a technological system that's incredibly powerful
881
2693633
2318
๋งค์šฐ ๊ฐ•๋ ฅํ•œ ๊ธฐ์ˆ  ์ฒด์ œ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์–ด์„œ ์ ์–ด๋„ ํ•œ๋™์•ˆ์€ ๋ฌด์—‡์ด๋“ ์ง€
44:55
that, for a while at least, massively amplified anything
882
2695975
4170
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ํ˜„์‹ค๊ณผ ์—ฐ๊ฒฐ๋˜์–ด์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ–์ง€ ์•Š๋Š” ์ฑ„๋กœ
45:00
with no attention paid to whether it connected to reality,
883
2700169
2780
๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ์ฆํญ์‹œํ‚ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
45:02
only to whether it connected to clicks and attention,
884
2702973
3154
ํด๋ฆญ๊ณผ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๋ฐ›๋Š”์ง€์—๋งŒ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๋ฉด์„œ์š”.
45:06
and that that was arguably toxic.
885
2706151
1616
๊ทธ๊ฑด ๋ถ„๋ช… ํ•ด๋กœ์šด ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”..
45:07
That's a reasonable concern, isn't it?
886
2707791
2436
๊ทธ๊ฑด ํ•ฉ๋ฆฌ์ ์ธ ์šฐ๋ ค์ž–์•„์š”, ๊ทธ๋ ‡์ฃ ?
45:10
YNH: Yeah, it is. I mean, the technology changes,
887
2710251
2286
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ๋งž์•„์š”. ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์€ ๋ณ€ํ™”ํ•˜๊ณ 
45:12
and it's now easier to disseminate both truth and fiction and falsehood.
888
2712561
5228
์ด์ œ๋Š” ์ง„์‹ค๊ณผ ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์™€ ๊ฑฐ์ง“ ๋ชจ๋‘๊ฐ€ ํผ๋œจ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ๋” ์‰ฌ์›Œ์กŒ์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
45:17
It goes both ways.
889
2717813
2003
์—ญ์œผ๋กœ๋„ ์„ฑ๋ฆฝ๋˜๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
45:19
It's also much easier, though, to spread the truth than it was ever before.
890
2719840
4579
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ด์ œ ์ง„์‹ค์„ ํผ๋œจ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๋„ ์ „๋ณด๋‹ค ๋” ์‰ฌ์›Œ์กŒ์–ด์š”.
45:24
But I don't think there is anything essentially new
891
2724443
3685
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ทผ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ๋Š” ํ—ˆ๊ตฌ์™€ ์˜ค๋ฅ˜๋ฅผ ํผ๋œจ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์—
45:28
about this disseminating fictions and errors.
892
2728152
4720
๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€ ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ๊ฒŒ ์ƒ๊ฒผ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
45:32
There is nothing that -- I don't know -- Joseph Goebbels, didn't know
893
2732896
4034
์š”์ œํ”„ ๊ดด๋ฒจ์Šค๋„ ๊ฐ€์งœ ๋‰ด์Šค์™€
45:36
about all this idea of fake news and post-truth.
894
2736954
5439
ํƒˆ์ง„์‹ค์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์„ ๋‹ค ์•Œ๊ณ ์žˆ์—ˆ๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
45:42
He famously said that if you repeat a lie often enough,
895
2742417
3718
๊ทธ๊ฐ€ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๋ช…์–ธ์„ ๋‚จ๊ฒผ์ฃ . ๊ฑฐ์ง“๋ง์„ ์ถฉ๋ถ„ํžˆ ์ž์ฃผ ๋ฐ˜๋ณตํ•˜๋ฉด
45:46
people will think it's the truth,
896
2746159
1821
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ฐ˜๋“œ์‹œ ๊ทธ๊ฑธ ๋ฏฟ๊ฒŒ๋œ๋‹ค.
45:48
and the bigger the lie, the better,
897
2748004
2356
๊ฑฐ์ง“๋ง์˜ ๊ทœ๋ชจ๊ฐ€ ํด์ˆ˜๋ก, ๋” ์ข‹๋‹ค.
45:50
because people won't even think that something so big can be a lie.
898
2750384
6023
์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๊ทธํ† ๋ก ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์ด ๊ฑฐ์ง“๋ง์ผ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐ์กฐ์ฐจ ๋ชปํ•  ๊ฒƒ์ด๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ด๋‹ค.
45:56
I think that fake news has been with us for thousands of years.
899
2756431
5658
์ €๋Š” ๊ฐ€์งœ ๋‰ด์Šค๊ฐ€ ์ˆ˜์ฒœ๋…„ ๋„˜๊ฒŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์™€ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์žˆ์–ด์™”๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
46:02
Just think of the Bible.
900
2762113
1901
์„ฑ๊ฒฝ์„ ๋ณด์„ธ์š”.
46:04
(Laughter)
901
2764038
1387
(์›ƒ์Œ)
46:05
CA: But there is a concern
902
2765449
1287
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ฐ€์งœ ๋‰ด์Šค๊ฐ€
46:06
that the fake news is associated with tyrannical regimes,
903
2766760
4017
๋…์žฌ ์ •๊ถŒ๊ณผ ์—ฐ๊ด€์ด ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ์šฐ๋ ค๊ฐ€ ์กด์žฌํ•ด์š”.
46:10
and when you see an uprise in fake news
904
2770801
2577
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๊ฐ€์งœ ๋‰ด์Šค๊ฐ€ ์ฆ๊ฐ€ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
46:13
that is a canary in the coal mine that there may be dark times coming.
905
2773402
4722
์•”ํ‘์˜ ์‹œ๋Œ€๊ฐ€ ์˜ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ์œ„ํ—˜์„ ์•Œ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์‹ ํ˜ธ๋ผ๊ณ ์š”.
46:19
YNH: Yeah. I mean, the intentional use of fake news is a disturbing sign.
906
2779944
6962
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋„ค, ๊ณ ์˜์ ์ธ ๊ฐ€์งœ ๋‰ด์Šค ์ด์šฉ์€ ๋ถˆํŽธํ•œ ์‹ ํ˜ธ์ฃ .
46:27
But I'm not saying that it's not bad, I'm just saying that it's not new.
907
2787632
4581
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ๋‚˜์˜์ง€ ์•Š๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์ผ์€ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
46:32
CA: There's a lot of interest on Facebook on this question
908
2792640
2754
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜ ๋Œ€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์— ๊ด€ํ•œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
46:35
about global governance versus nationalism.
909
2795418
5000
ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์—์„œ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์ด ๋งŽ๋„ค์š”.
46:41
Question here from Phil Dennis:
910
2801112
1508
ํ•„ ๋ฐ๋‹ˆ์Šค ์”จ๊ฐ€ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ฃผ์…จ์–ด์š”.
46:42
"How do we get people, governments, to relinquish power?
911
2802644
3496
"์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๊ณผ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ๊ถŒ๋ ฅ์„ ์–‘๋„ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“ค ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์ฃ ?
46:46
Is that -- is that -- actually, the text is so big
912
2806164
3915
๊ทธ๊ฒŒ, ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ, ์‚ฌ์‹ค, ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ๊ธธ์–ด์„œ
46:50
I can't read the full question.
913
2810103
1540
๋‹ค ์ฝ์„ ์ˆ˜๊ฐ€ ์—†์–ด์š”.
46:51
But is that a necessity?
914
2811667
1539
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ๊ผญ ํ•„์š”ํ•œ๊ฐ€์š”?
46:53
Is it going to take war to get there?
915
2813230
2612
๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ์— ๋„๋‹ฌํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ ์ „์Ÿ์„ ์น˜๋ค„์•ผ ํ•˜๋‚˜์š”?
46:55
Sorry Phil -- I mangled your question, but I blame the text right here.
916
2815866
3690
์ฃ„์†กํ•ด์š” ํ•„, ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋ง์ณค๋„ค์š”. ์ด ์ง€๋ฌธ ์ž˜๋ชป์ด์—์š”.
46:59
YNH: One option that some people talk about
917
2819580
2100
์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ผ๋ถ€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐํ•˜๋Š” ์„ ํƒ์ง€ ์ค‘ ํ•˜๋‚˜๋Š”
47:01
is that only a catastrophe can shake humankind
918
2821704
4739
์žฌ๋‚œ๋งŒ์ด ์ธ๋ฅ˜๋ฅผ ๋’คํ”๋“ค์–ด์„œ
47:06
and open the path to a real system of global governance,
919
2826467
5264
์ง„์ •ํ•œ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜ ์ฒด์ œ๋ฅผ ํ–ฅํ•œ ๊ธธ์„ ์—ด์–ด์ค„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
47:11
and they say that we can't do it before the catastrophe,
920
2831755
4148
์žฌ๋‚œ์ด ์˜ค๊ธฐ ์ „์—” ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ํ•ด๋‚ด์ง€ ๋ชปํ•  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋งํ•ด์š”.
47:15
but we need to start laying the foundations
921
2835927
2801
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜์„ ์„ธ์šฐ๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
47:18
so that when the disaster strikes,
922
2838752
2500
์žฌํ•ด๊ฐ€ ๋‹ฅ์น˜๋ฉด
47:21
we can react quickly.
923
2841276
2182
์žฌ๋นจ๋ฆฌ ๋Œ€์‘ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒŒ์š”.
47:23
But people will just not have the motivation to do such a thing
924
2843482
4000
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์žฌ๋‚œ์ด ๋‹ฅ์น˜๊ธฐ ์ „์— ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์›€์ง์ด๋„๋ก ํ• 
47:27
before the disaster strikes.
925
2847506
2012
๋™์ธ์ด ์—†์–ด์š”.
47:29
Another thing that I would emphasize
926
2849542
2265
์ œ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ•์กฐํ•˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์€ ๋˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ฒƒ์€
47:31
is that anybody who is really interested in global governance
927
2851831
5054
์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜์— ์ •๋ง ๊ด€์‹ฌ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์€
47:36
should always make it very, very clear
928
2856909
2901
ํ™•์‹คํžˆ ์•Œ์•„์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด
47:39
that it doesn't replace or abolish local identities and communities,
929
2859834
6584
์ง€์—ญ์˜ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์ด๋‚˜ ์‚ฌํšŒ ์ง‘๋‹จ์ด ๋Œ€์ฒด๋˜๊ฑฐ๋‚˜ ํ์ง€๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
47:46
that it should come both as --
930
2866442
2956
๊พธ๋Ÿฌ๋ฏธ์˜ ์ผ๋ถ€๊ฐ€
47:49
It should be part of a single package.
931
2869422
3307
๋˜์–ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
47:52
CA: I want to hear more on this,
932
2872753
3378
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์—ฌ๊ธฐ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๋” ๋“ฃ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ด์š”.
47:56
because the very words "global governance"
933
2876155
3053
์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด "์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜"๋ผ๋Š” ๋ง ์ž์ฒด๊ฐ€
47:59
are almost the epitome of evil in the mindset of a lot of people
934
2879232
4589
์ง€๊ธˆ ๋Œ€์•ˆ ์šฐํŒŒ์˜ ๋จธ๋ฆฟ์†์—์„œ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜
48:03
on the alt-right right now.
935
2883845
1326
์•…์˜ ์ „ํ˜•์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ์—ฌ๊ฒจ์ง€์ž–์•„์š”.
48:05
It just seems scary, remote, distant, and it has let them down,
936
2885195
2954
๋ฌด์„ญ๊ณ , ๋จผ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์˜ ๋™๋–จ์–ด์ง„ ์ผ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ๋Š๊ปด์ง€๊ณ , ๊ทธ๋“ค์„ ์‹ค๋ง์‹œ์ผฐ์–ด์š”.
48:08
and so globalists, global governance -- no, go away!
937
2888173
4116
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ฃผ์˜์ž, ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜ ์‹ซ์–ด, ์ €๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€!
48:12
And many view the election as the ultimate poke in the eye
938
2892313
3682
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋งŽ์€ ์ด๋“ค์ด ํˆฌํ‘œ๊ฐ€ ํˆฌํ‘œ๋ฅผ ๋ฏฟ๋Š” ์ด๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๊ถ๊ทน์ ์œผ๋กœ
48:16
to anyone who believes in that.
939
2896019
1478
ํ•ด๋ฅผ ์ž…ํžŒ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
48:17
So how do we change the narrative
940
2897521
3551
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋ฌด์„ญ๊ณ  ๋จผ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์˜ ์ผ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ
48:21
so that it doesn't seem so scary and remote?
941
2901096
2975
๋ณด์ด์ง€ ์•Š๊ฒŒ ํ•˜๋ ค๋ฉด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋‹ค๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ๋ฌ˜์‚ฌํ•ด์•ผ ํ• ๊นŒ์š”?
48:24
Build more on this idea of it being compatible
942
2904095
2744
์ง€์—ญ ์‚ฌํšŒ์˜ ์ •์ฒด์„ฑ์ด๋‚˜ ์ง€์—ญ ๊ณต๋™์ฒด์™€ ์–‘๋ฆฝ ๊ฐ€๋Šฅํ•˜๋‹ค๋Š”
48:26
with local identity, local communities.
943
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์ƒ๊ฐ์— ๋”ํ•ด์„œ ๋ง์”€ํ•ด์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
48:29
YNH: Well, I think again we should start
944
2909508
2600
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋‹ค์‹œ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ์ง€๋งŒ
48:32
really with the biological realities
945
2912132
3132
ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค์˜ ์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์  ์‹ค์ œ์—์„œ
48:35
of Homo sapiens.
946
2915288
2011
์‹œ์ž‘ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
48:37
And biology tells us two things about Homo sapiens
947
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์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์€ ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ด ๋ฌธ์ œ์™€ ๋งค์šฐ ๋ฐ€์ ‘ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๊ด€๋ จ์žˆ๋Š”
48:41
which are very relevant to this issue:
948
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์‚ฌ์‹ค ๋‘ ๊ฐ€์ง€๋ฅผ ์•Œ๋ ค์ค๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
48:43
first of all, that we are completely dependent
949
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์ฒซ์งธ, ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์ฃผ๋ณ€์˜ ์ƒํƒœ๊ณ„์—
48:46
on the ecological system around us,
950
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์™„์ „ํžˆ ์˜์กด์ ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
48:49
and that today we are talking about a global system.
951
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ์ฒด์ œ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
48:52
You cannot escape that.
952
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๊ทธ๊ฑธ ํ”ผํ•  ์ˆ˜๋Š” ์—†์–ด์š”.
48:54
And at the same time, biology tells us about Homo sapiens
953
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์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์€ ๋™์‹œ์— ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค๊ฐ€
48:57
that we are social animals,
954
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2247
์‚ฌํšŒ์  ๋™๋ฌผ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฑธ ์•Œ๋ ค์ค๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
49:00
but that we are social on a very, very local level.
955
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4637
ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๋งค์šฐ ์ง€์—ญ์ ์ธ ์ˆ˜์ค€์—์„œ ์‚ฌํšŒ์ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
49:04
It's just a simple fact of humanity
956
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3545
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ 150๋ช… ์ด์ƒ์˜ ๊ฐœ์ธ๋“ค๊ณผ
49:08
that we cannot have intimate familiarity
957
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์นœ๋ถ„์„ ๋งบ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
49:13
with more than about 150 individuals.
958
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3875
์ธ๊ฐ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋‹จ์ˆœํ•œ ์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด์—์š”.
49:17
The size of the natural group,
959
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ํ˜ธ๋ชจ ์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค์˜
49:21
the natural community of Homo sapiens,
960
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3102
์ž์—ฐ์ ์ธ ์‚ฌํšŒ ์ง‘๋‹จ์˜ ํฌ๊ธฐ๋Š”
49:24
is not more than 150 individuals,
961
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150๋ช…์„ ๋„˜์ง€ ์•Š์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
49:27
and everything beyond that is really based on all kinds of imaginary stories
962
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๊ทธ๊ฑธ ์ดˆ๊ณผํ•˜๋Š” ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์€ ์‚ฌ์‹ค ๊ฐ€์ƒ์˜ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ์™€ ๋Œ€๊ทœ๋ชจ์˜ ๊ธฐ๊ด€๋“ค์—
49:34
and large-scale institutions,
963
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2047
๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜ํ•ด ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
49:36
and I think that we can find a way,
964
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์ €๋Š” ์ธ๊ฐ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ƒ๋ฌผํ•™์  ์ดํ•ด๋ฅผ ๊ธฐ๋ฐ˜์œผ๋กœ ์‚ผ์•„
49:40
again, based on a biological understanding of our species,
965
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๊ทธ ๋‘˜์„ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์กฐํ™”์‹œํ‚ฌ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์„ ์ฐพ๊ณ ,
49:45
to weave the two together
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21์„ธ๊ธฐ์˜ ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚ ์—
49:47
and to understand that today in the 21st century,
967
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3076
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ตญ์ œ์  ์ˆ˜์ค€๊ณผ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์ง€์—ญ ์‚ฌํšŒ๋„ ํ•„์š”ํ•˜๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ
49:50
we need both the global level and the local community.
968
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์ดํ•ดํ•˜๋Š” ๊ธธ์„ ์ฐพ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
49:56
And I would go even further than that
969
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2017
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ €๋Š” ๊ฑฐ๊ธฐ์„œ ๋” ๋‚˜์•„๊ฐ€
49:58
and say that it starts with the body itself.
970
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3323
์ด๊ฒƒ์ด ์‹ ์ฒด์—์„œ ์‹œ์ž‘๋œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ด์š”.
50:02
The feelings that people today have of alienation and loneliness
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์†Œ์™ธ๊ฐ๊ณผ ์™ธ๋กœ์›€์„ ๋Š๋ผ๊ณ 
50:06
and not finding their place in the world,
972
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์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ ์ž๊ธฐ ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ ๋ชป ์ฐพ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์€ ๊ธฐ๋ถ„์„ ๋Š๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์˜
50:09
I would think that the chief problem is not global capitalism.
973
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์ฃผ์›์ธ์€ ์„ธ๊ณ„์ž๋ณธ์ฃผ์˜๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
50:16
The chief problem is that over the last hundred years,
974
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3026
์ฃผ์›์ธ์€ 100๋…„ ์ „๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
50:19
people have been becoming disembodied,
975
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3704
์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ์ ์  ๋ถ„๋ฆฌ๋˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
50:22
have been distancing themselves from their body.
976
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์Šค์Šค๋กœ๋ฅผ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๋–จ์–ด๋œจ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
50:26
As a hunter-gatherer or even as a peasant,
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์ˆ˜๋ ต์ฑ„์ง‘๋ฏผ์ด๋“  ๋†๋ถ€์ด๋“ 
50:28
to survive, you need to be constantly in touch
978
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4198
์‚ด์•„๋‚จ๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด์„œ๋Š” ์ž์‹ ์˜ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๊ฐ๊ฐ๊ณผ
50:33
with your body and with your senses,
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๋ชจ๋“  ์ˆœ๊ฐ„ ์ง€์†์ ์œผ๋กœ
50:35
every moment.
980
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1181
์†Œํ†ตํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์•ผ ํ•ด์š”.
50:36
If you go to the forest to look for mushrooms
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์ˆฒ์œผ๋กœ ๋ฒ„์„ฏ์„ ์บ๋Ÿฌ ๊ฐ€์„œ๋Š”
50:38
and you don't pay attention to what you hear,
982
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2377
๋“ค๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ, ๋ƒ„์ƒˆ ๋งก๋Š” ๊ฒƒ, ๋ง›๋ณด๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์„ ์‹ ๊ฒฝ ์“ฐ์ง€ ์•Š์œผ๋ฉด ์ฃฝ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
50:41
to what you smell, to what you taste,
983
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1876
50:43
you're dead.
984
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1151
50:44
So you must be very connected.
985
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2151
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๊ธด๋ฐ€ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ์—ฐ๊ฒฐ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ์–ด์•ผํ•ด์š”.
50:46
In the last hundred years, people are losing their ability
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์ง€๋‚œ 100๋…„๊ฐ„ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ณธ์ธ์˜ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๊ฐ๊ฐ,
50:51
to be in touch with their body and their senses,
987
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2872
์ฒญ๊ฐ, ํ›„๊ฐ, ์ด‰๊ฐ๊ณผ ์†Œํ†ตํ•˜๋Š” ๋Šฅ๋ ฅ์„ ์žƒ์–ด๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
50:53
to hear, to smell, to feel.
988
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2186
50:56
More and more attention goes to screens,
989
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3126
๋” ๋งŽ์€ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์ด ์Šคํฌ๋ฆฐ์œผ๋กœ
50:59
to what is happening elsewhere,
990
3059318
1520
๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ณณ์—์„œ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์‹œ๊ฐ„์— ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๋Š”
51:00
some other time.
991
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1221
์ผ๋“ค๋กœ ๊ฐ€๊ณ  ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
51:02
This, I think, is the deep reason
992
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2431
์ €๋Š” ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์†Œ์™ธ๊ฐ๊ณผ
51:04
for the feelings of alienation and loneliness and so forth,
993
3064562
3894
์™ธ๋กœ์›€ ๋“ฑ์„ ๋Š๋ผ๋Š” ๊ทผ๋ณธ ์›์ธ์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
51:08
and therefore part of the solution
994
3068480
2502
๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ํ•ด๊ฒฐ์ฑ…์˜ ์ผ๋ถ€๊ฐ€
51:11
is not to bring back some mass nationalism,
995
3071006
4264
๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜๋กœ ๋Œ€๊ฑฐ ํšŒ๊ท€ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
51:15
but also reconnect with our own bodies,
996
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4124
์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๋‹ค์‹œ ์—ฐ๊ฒฐ๋˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
51:19
and if you are back in touch with your body,
997
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3263
๋‹ค์‹œ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ์†Œํ†ตํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
51:22
you will feel much more at home in the world also.
998
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3170
์ด ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ ๋” ํŽธํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋Š๋‚„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„ ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
51:25
CA: Well, depending on how things go, we may all be back in the forest soon.
999
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3685
ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ทธ๊ฒŒ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ํ’€๋ฆฌ๋Š”์ง€์— ๋”ฐ๋ผ ๊ณง ๋‹ค๋“ค ์ˆฒ์—์„œ ์‚ด ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ๊ฒ ๋„ค์š”.
51:29
We're going to have one more question in the room
1000
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2349
์ด ๋ฐฉ์—์„œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ํ•˜๋‚˜ ๋” ๋ฐ›๊ณ 
51:32
and one more on Facebook.
1001
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1503
ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์—์„œ ํ•˜๋‚˜ ๋” ๋ฐ›์„๊ฒŒ์š”.
51:33
Ama Adi-Dako: Hello. I'm from Ghana, West Africa, and my question is:
1002
3093532
3381
๋งˆ์•„ ์•„๋””-๋‹ค์ฝ”: ์•ˆ๋…•ํ•˜์„ธ์š”. ์ €๋Š” ์„œ์•„ํ”„๋ฆฌ์นด ๊ฐ€๋‚˜์—์„œ ์™”์–ด์š”.
51:36
I'm wondering how do you present and justify the idea of global governance
1003
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4602
์ œ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์€, ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์˜ ์˜ํ–ฅ์œผ๋กœ ์ฃผ๊ถŒ์„ ๋ฐ•ํƒˆ๋‹นํ•œ ์—ญ์‚ฌ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋Š”
51:41
to countries that have been historically disenfranchised
1004
3101563
3011
๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ๋Š” ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜ ์‚ฌ์ƒ์„
51:44
by the effects of globalization,
1005
3104598
2045
์†Œ๊ฐœํ•˜๊ณ  ์ •๋‹นํ™”ํ•˜์‹œ๋‚˜์š”?
51:46
and also, if we're talking about global governance,
1006
3106667
2746
๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐํ•  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๋ฉด
51:49
it sounds to me like it will definitely come from a very Westernized idea
1007
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3624
์„œ์–‘์—์„œ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ”๋žŒ์งํ•œ "์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”"์˜ ๋ชจ์Šต์—์„œ ์ง„ํ–‰๋  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์€๋ฐ์š”.
51:53
of what the "global" is supposed to look like.
1008
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2174
51:55
So how do we present and justify that idea of global
1009
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๊ทธ๋ ‡๋‹ค๋ฉด ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™” ๋Œ€ ์™„์ „ํ•œ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€์ฃผ์˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์„
51:58
versus wholly nationalist
1010
3118597
2993
๊ฐ€๋‚˜์™€ ๋‚˜์ด์ง€๋ฆฌ์•„์™€ ํ† ๊ณ ์™€
52:01
to people in countries like Ghana and Nigeria and Togo
1011
3121614
3335
๊ทธ ๋ฐ–์˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์˜ ๊ตญ๋ฏผ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์†Œ๊ฐœํ•˜๊ณ  ์ •๋‹นํ™”ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋‚˜์š”?
52:04
and other countries like that?
1012
3124973
2176
52:07
YNH: I would start by saying that history is extremely unfair,
1013
3127951
6414
์œ ๋ฐœ: ๋จผ์ € ์—ญ์‚ฌ๋Š” ๋งค์šฐ ๋ถˆ๊ณตํ‰ํ•˜๊ณ , ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ทธ ์‚ฌ์‹ค์„ ๊นจ๋‹ฌ์•„์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋Š”
52:14
and that we should realize that.
1014
3134389
3922
๋ง์”€์„ ๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ์š”.
52:18
Many of the countries that suffered most
1015
3138824
3049
์ง€๋‚œ 200๋…„์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„ํ™”์™€
52:21
from the last 200 years of globalization
1016
3141897
4139
์ œ๊ตญ์ฃผ์˜์™€ ์‚ฐ์—…ํ™”๋กœ ์ธํ•ด
52:26
and imperialism and industrialization
1017
3146060
1960
์ œ์ผ ๋งŽ์ด ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์€ ๋‹ค์ˆ˜์˜ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์ด
52:28
are exactly the countries which are also most likely to suffer most
1018
3148044
5710
๋‹ค์Œ ๋ฌผ๊ฒฐ์— ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ๊ฐ€๋Šฅ์„ฑ์ด
52:33
from the next wave.
1019
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2789
์ œ์ผ ๋งŽ์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
52:36
And we should be very, very clear about that.
1020
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3994
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋ช…ํ™•ํžˆ ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•  ๊ฒƒ์ด
52:41
If we don't have a global governance,
1021
3161297
3051
์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์„ธ๊ณ„์  ํ†ต์น˜๋ฅผ ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”๋‹ค๋ฉด
52:44
and if we suffer from climate change,
1022
3164372
3203
๊ธฐํ›„๋ณ€ํ™”์™€ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ํ˜์‹ ์—
52:47
from technological disruptions,
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๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›๊ฒŒ ๋œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
52:49
the worst suffering will not be in the US.
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๊ฐ€์žฅ ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›๊ฒŒ ๋  ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋Š” ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์ด ์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
52:53
The worst suffering will be in Ghana, will be in Sudan, will be in Syria,
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๊ฐ€์žฅ ๋งŽ์ด ๊ณ ํ†ต๋ฐ›์„ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋Š” ๊ฐ€๋‚˜, ์ˆ˜๋‹จ, ์‹œ๋ฆฌ์•„,
52:58
will be in Bangladesh, will be in those places.
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๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ณณ๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
53:01
So I think those countries have an even greater incentive
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ด ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์ด ๋‹ค์Œ์— ์˜ฌ ํŒŒ๊ดด์  ๋ฌผ๊ฒฐ์— ๋Œ€์ฑ…์„ ์„ธ์šธ
53:07
to do something about the next wave of disruption,
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๋” ํฐ ๋™์ธ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
53:12
whether it's ecological or whether it's technological.
1029
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์ƒํƒœ์ ์ธ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋“  ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์ ์ธ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋“  ๋ง์ด์ฃ .
53:14
Again, if you think about technological disruption,
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๊ธฐ์ˆ ์  ํ˜์‹ ์„ ๋ณด๋ฉด
53:17
so if AI and 3D printers and robots will take the jobs
1031
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์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ 3D ํ”„๋ฆฐํ„ฐ๊ฐ€ ์ˆ˜์‹ญ ์–ต ๋ช…์˜ ์ผ์ž๋ฆฌ๋ฅผ
53:22
from billions of people,
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๋นผ์•—๊ฒŒ ๋œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
53:24
I worry far less about the Swedes
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์ €๋Š” ์Šค์›จ๋ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๋ณด๋‹ค
53:27
than about the people in Ghana or in Bangladesh.
1034
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๊ฐ€๋‚˜์ธ์ด๋‚˜ ๋ฐฉ๊ธ€๋ผ๋ฐ์‹œ์ธ์„ ๋” ๊ฑฑ์ •ํ•  ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
53:31
And therefore, because history is so unfair
1035
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์—ญ์‚ฌ๋Š” ๋ถˆ๊ณตํ‰ํ•˜๊ธฐ์—
53:36
and the results of a calamity
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์žฌ์•™์˜ ํ›„ํ™˜์€
53:41
will not be shared equally between everybody,
1037
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๋ชจ๋‘์—๊ฒŒ ๊ณตํ‰ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋ถ„๋‹ด๋˜์ง€ ์•Š์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
53:43
as usual, the rich will be able to get away
1038
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์–ธ์ œ๋‚˜ ๊ทธ๋ ‡๋“ฏ ๋ถ€์ž๋“ค์€ ๊ธฐํ›„ ๋ณ€ํ™”๋กœ ์ดˆ๋ž˜๋œ
53:47
from the worst consequences of climate change
1039
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์ตœ์•…์˜ ํ›„ํ™˜๋“ค์„ ํ”ผํ•ด๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
53:51
in a way that the poor will not be able to.
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๋นˆ์ž๋“ค์€ ๊ทธ๋Ÿด ์ˆ˜ ์—†์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
53:55
CA: And here's a great question from Cameron Taylor on Facebook:
1041
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ์—ฌ๊ธฐ ํŽ˜์ด์Šค๋ถ์˜ ์นด๋ฉ”๋ก  ํ…Œ์ผ๋Ÿฌ ์”จํ•œํ…Œ ์˜จ ์ข‹์€ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์ด ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
53:58
"At the end of 'Sapiens,'"
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"'์‚ฌํ”ผ์—”์Šค' ์ฑ… ๋ง๋ฏธ์—์„œ
54:00
you said we should be asking the question,
1043
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์ด ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋ฌผ์–ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ•˜์…จ์–ด์š”.
54:02
'What do we want to want?'
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'์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋ฌด์—‡์„ ์›ํ•˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์€๊ฐ€?'
54:05
Well, what do you think we should want to want?"
1045
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๋ฌด์—‡์€ ์›ํ•˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์„ธ์š”?"
54:08
YNH: I think we should want to want to know the truth,
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ง„์‹ค์„ ์•Œ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•˜๊ณ  ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ดํ•ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
54:11
to understand reality.
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2650
54:15
Mostly what we want is to change reality,
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์ฃผ์š”ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์›ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด
54:20
to fit it to our own desires, to our own wishes,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์š•๊ตฌ์™€ ๋ฐ”๋žŒ์— ๋งž๊ฒŒ ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ๋ฐ”๊พธ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
54:23
and I think we should first want to understand it.
1050
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ €๋Š” ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์šฐ์„  ํ˜„์‹ค์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๊ธธ ์›ํ•ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
54:27
If you look at the long-term trajectory of history,
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์—ญ์‚ฌ์˜ ์žฅ๊ธฐ์ ์ธ ๊ถค์ ์„ ๋ณด๋ฉด
54:31
what you see is that for thousands of years
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์ˆ˜์ฒœ ๋…„์˜ ์„ธ์›” ๋™์•ˆ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์ธ๊ฐ„์€
54:34
we humans have been gaining control of the world outside us
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋ฐ–์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๋ ฅ์„ ์–ป๊ณ , ๊ทธ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์š•๊ตฌ์— ๋งž๊ฒŒ
54:37
and trying to shape it to fit our own desires.
1054
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๋ณ€ํ™”์‹œํ‚ค๋ ค ํ•ด์™”๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
54:41
And we've gained control of the other animals,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋™๋ฌผ๋“ค๊ณผ ๊ฐ•๊ณผ ์ˆฒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ
54:44
of the rivers, of the forests,
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์ง€๋ฐฐ๋ ฅ์„ ์–ป๊ณ 
54:45
and reshaped them completely,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์˜ ๋ชจ์Šต์„ ์™„์ „ํžˆ ๋ฐ”๊ฟ”๋†“์•˜์–ด์š”.
54:49
causing an ecological destruction
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์ƒํƒœ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ํŒŒ๊ดดํ–ˆ๊ณ 
54:52
without making ourselves satisfied.
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋„ ๋งŒ์กฑ๊ฐ์„ ๋Š๋ผ์ง€ ๋ชปํ–ˆ์ฃ .
54:55
So the next step is we turn our gaze inwards,
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3802
๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ๋‹ค์Œ์— ํ•  ์ผ์€ ์‹œ์„ ์„ ๋‚ด๋ถ€๋กœ ๋Œ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
54:59
and we say OK, getting control of the world outside us
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์ข‹์•„, ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋ฐ–์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ง€๋ฐฐ๊ถŒ์„ ๊ฐ–๋Š” ๊ฑด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒŒ
55:04
did not really make us satisfied.
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๋งŒ์กฑ๊ฐ์„ ๊ฐ€์ ธ๋‹ค ์ฃผ์ง€ ๋ชปํ–ˆ์–ด.
55:06
Let's now try to gain control of the world inside us.
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์ด์ œ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์•ˆ์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๋ ฅ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๋ ค๊ณ  ํ•ด๋ณด์ž.
55:08
This is the really big project
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์ด๊ฒŒ 21์„ธ๊ธฐ ๊ณผํ•™๊ณผ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ๊ณผ ์‚ฐ์—…์˜
55:11
of science and technology and industry in the 21st century --
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์ •๋ง๋กœ ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ”„๋กœ์ ํŠธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
55:15
to try and gain control of the world inside us,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋‚ด๋ถ€์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๊ถŒ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๋ ค ๋…ธ๋ ฅํ•˜๊ณ ,
55:19
to learn how to engineer and produce bodies and brains and minds.
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๋‡Œ์™€ ์ •์‹  ๋งŒ๋“ค๊ณ  ์„ค๊ณ„ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฒ•์„ ๋ฐฐ์šฐ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์š”.
55:23
These are likely to be the main products of the 21st century economy.
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์ด๊ฒŒ 21์„ธ๊ธฐ ๊ฒฝ์ œ์˜ ์ฃผ์š” ์‚ฐ๋ฌผ์ด ๋  ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
55:28
When people think about the future, very often they think in terms,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ƒ๊ฐํ•  ๋•Œ ์ข…์ข… ์ด๋Ÿฐ ์ƒ๊ฐ์„ ํ•ด์š”.
55:32
"Oh, I want to gain control of my body and of my brain."
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"๋‚ด ์‹ ์ฒด์™€ ๋‡Œ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ†ต์ œ๊ถŒ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์‹ถ์–ด."
55:36
And I think that's very dangerous.
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์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์— ๊ทธ๊ฑด ๋งค์šฐ ์œ„ํ—˜ํ•ด์š”.
55:39
If we've learned anything from our previous history,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์—ญ์‚ฌ๋กœ๋ถ€ํ„ฐ ๋ฐฐ์šด ๊ฒŒ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด
55:42
it's that yes, we gain the power to manipulate,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์กฐ์ข…ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด ํž˜์„ ์–ป์œผ๋ ค๊ณ  ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑด ๋งž์ง€๋งŒ
55:46
but because we didn't really understand the complexity
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ƒํƒœ๊ณ„์˜ ๋ณต์žก์„ฑ์„
55:49
of the ecological system,
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1805
์ดํ•ดํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ–ˆ์—ˆ๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์—
55:51
we are now facing an ecological meltdown.
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์ง€๊ธˆ ์ƒํƒœ์  ๋ถ•๊ดด์— ์ง๋ฉดํ•ด ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
55:54
And if we now try to reengineer the world inside us
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋‚ด๋ถ€์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„๋ฅผ ์ œ๋Œ€๋กœ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•œ ์ฑ„๋กœ
56:00
without really understanding it,
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๊ฐœ๋Ÿ‰ํ•˜๋ ค ํ•œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
56:02
especially without understanding the complexity of our mental system,
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ํŠนํžˆ๋‚˜ ์ •์‹  ์ฒด๊ณ„์˜ ๋ณต์žก์„ฑ์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•œ ์ฑ„๋กœ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋ฉด,
56:06
we might cause a kind of internal ecological disaster,
1080
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๋‚ด๋ถ€ ์ƒํƒœ์— ์žฌ๋‚œ์„ ์ดˆ๋ž˜ํ•  ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
56:11
and we'll face a kind of mental meltdown inside us.
1081
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋‚ด๋ถ€์—์„œ ์ •์‹ ์  ๋ถ•๊ดด๋ฅผ ๊ฒฝํ—˜ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋  ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
56:16
CA: Putting all the pieces together here --
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๋ชจ๋“  ์กฐ๊ฐ๋“ค์„ ๋ชจ์•„๋ณด๋ฉด,
56:18
the current politics, the coming technology,
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ํ˜„ ์‹œ์ ์˜ ์ •์น˜์™€, ๊ฐœ๋ฐœ๋  ๊ธฐ์ˆ ๊ณผ
56:21
concerns like the one you've just outlined --
1084
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๋ง์”€ํ•ด์ฃผ์‹  ์šฐ๋ ค๋“ค์„ ์ข…ํ•ฉํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด
56:23
I mean, it seems like you yourself are in quite a bleak place
1085
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์œ ๋ฐœ ์”จ๋Š” ๋ฏธ๋ž˜์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๋งค์šฐ ์•”์šธํ•˜๊ฒŒ
56:26
when you think about the future.
1086
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹œ๋Š” ๊ฑฐ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
56:28
You're pretty worried about it.
1087
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๋งŽ์ด ๊ฑฑ์ •ํ•˜๊ณ  ๊ณ„์„ธ์š”.
56:29
Is that right?
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๊ทธ๋ ‡์ง€ ์•Š์œผ์‹ ๊ฐ€์š”?
56:31
And if there was one cause for hope, how would you state that?
1089
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ํฌ๋ง์„ ๊ฐ€์งˆ ์ด์œ ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ๊ฐ€์š”?
56:37
YNH: I focus on the most dangerous possibilities
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์œ ๋ฐœ: ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ผ์–ด๋‚  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฐ€์žฅ ์œ„ํ—˜ํ•œ ์ผ๋“ค์— ์ง‘์ค‘ํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์œ ๋Š”
56:41
partly because this is like my job or responsibility
1091
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์ด๊ฒŒ ์—ญ์‚ฌํ•™์ž๋‚˜ ์‚ฌํšŒ ๋น„ํ‰๊ฐ€๋กœ์„œ ์ œ ์ž„๋ฌด์ด๊ณ 
56:44
as a historian or social critic.
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์ฑ…์ž„์ด๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
56:46
I mean, the industry focuses mainly on the positive sides,
1093
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์‚ฐ์—…์€ ์ฃผ๋กœ ๊ธ์ •์ ์ธ ๋ฉด์— ์ฃผ๋ชฉํ•ด์š”.
56:51
so it's the job of historians and philosophers and sociologists
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ƒˆ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์˜ ์ž ์žฌ์  ์œ„ํ—˜์„ฑ์„ ๊ฐ•์กฐํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
56:54
to highlight the more dangerous potential of all these new technologies.
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์—ญ์‚ฌํ•™์ž์™€ ์ฒ ํ•™๊ฐ€์™€ ์‚ฌํšŒํ•™์ž๋“ค์˜ ์ผ์ด์ฃ .
56:59
I don't think any of that is inevitable.
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์ด ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์„ ํ”ผํ•ด๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์„ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
57:01
Technology is never deterministic.
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๊ธฐ์ˆ ์€ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๊ฐ€ ๊ฒฐ์ •๋˜์–ด์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
57:04
You can use the same technology
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๊ฐ™์€ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ๋กœ
57:06
to create very different kinds of societies.
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๋งค์šฐ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์‚ฌํšŒ๋“ค์„ ๋งŒ๋“ค ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
57:09
If you look at the 20th century,
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20์„ธ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋ฉด
57:11
so, the technologies of the Industrial Revolution,
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์‚ฐ์—…ํ˜๋ช…์˜ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ๋“ค์€
57:14
the trains and electricity and all that
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๊ธฐ์ฐจ์™€ ์ „๊ธฐ ๋“ฑ๋“ฑ์€
57:17
could be used to create a communist dictatorship
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๊ณต์‚ฐ์ฃผ์˜ ๋…์žฌ๋‚˜ ํŒŒ์‹œ์ŠคํŠธ ์ •๊ถŒ์„ ๋งŒ๋“œ๋Š” ๋ฐ์—๋„,
57:20
or a fascist regime or a liberal democracy.
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์ž์œ  ๋ฏผ์ฃผ์ฃผ์˜๋ฅผ ํ˜•์„ฑํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ์—๋„ ์ด์šฉ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
57:23
The trains did not tell you what to do with them.
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๊ธฐ์ฐจ๋Š” ์ž๊ธฐ๋“ค๋กœ ๋ญ˜ ํ• ์ง€ ์•Œ๋ ค์ฃผ์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์–ด์š”.
57:26
Similarly, now, artificial intelligence and bioengineering and all of that --
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์ด์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ์ธ๊ณต์ง€๋Šฅ๊ณผ ์ƒ์ฒด๊ณตํ•™ ๋“ฑ๋„
57:30
they don't predetermine a single outcome.
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ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๋ฅผ ์ •ํ•ด์ฃผ์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
57:34
Humanity can rise up to the challenge,
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์ธ๊ฐ„์€ ๊ทธ ๋„์ „ ๊ณผ์ œ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ญํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
57:37
and the best example we have
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์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ์ƒˆ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์˜
57:39
of humanity rising up to the challenge of a new technology
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๋„์ „ ๊ณผ์ œ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ญํ•œ ๊ฐ€์žฅ ์ข‹์€ ์„ ๋ก€๋Š”
57:43
is nuclear weapons.
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ํ•ต๋ฌด๊ธฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
57:45
In the late 1940s, '50s,
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1940๋…„๋Œ€์™€ 50๋…„๋Œ€ ํ›„๋ฐ˜์—
57:48
many people were convinced
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๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
57:50
that sooner or later the Cold War will end in a nuclear catastrophe,
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๋จธ์ง€์•Š์•„ ๋ƒ‰์ „์ด ํ•ต์ฐธ์‚ฌ๋กœ ๋๋‚˜์„œ
57:54
destroying human civilization.
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์ธ๋ฅ˜ ๋ฌธ๋ช…์ด ํŒŒ๊ดด๋  ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ฏฟ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
57:56
And this did not happen.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ์ผ์€ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์–ด์š”.
57:57
In fact, nuclear weapons prompted humans all over the world
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ํ•ต๋ฌด๊ธฐ๋Š” ์ „์„ธ๊ณ„ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
58:04
to change the way that they manage international politics
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๊ตญ์ œ ์ •์น˜๋ฅผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์„ ๋ณ€ํ™”์‹œํ‚ค๊ณ 
58:09
to reduce violence.
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ํญ๋ ฅ์„ ์ค„์ด๋„๋ก ๋งŒ๋“ค์—ˆ์–ด์š”,
58:11
And many countries basically took out war
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋งŽ์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์ด ์ •์น˜์  ๋„๊ตฌ ๋ชฉ๋ก์—์„œ
58:14
from their political toolkit.
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์ „์Ÿ์„ ์ œ์™ธํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋งŒ๋“ค์—ˆ์ฃ .
58:16
They no longer tried to pursue their interests with warfare.
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๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์€ ๋” ์ด์ƒ ์ž๊ตญ์˜ ์ดํ•ด๋ฅผ ์ „์Ÿ์œผ๋กœ ์ถ”๊ตฌํ•˜๋ ค ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์•„์š”.
58:21
Not all countries have done so, but many countries have.
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๋ชจ๋“  ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ๋žฌ์—ˆ๋˜ ๊ฑด ์•„๋‹ˆ์ง€๋งŒ ๋งŽ์€ ๊ตญ๊ฐ€๋“ค์€ ๊ทธ๋žฌ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
58:24
And this is maybe the most important reason
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์ด๊ฒŒ ์•„๋งˆ 1945๋…„ ์ดํ›„ ๊ตญ์ œ์  ํญ๋ ฅ ์‚ฌ์šฉ์ด ๊ธ‰๊ฒฉํžˆ ๊ฐ์†Œํ•œ
58:28
why international violence declined dramatically since 1945,
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๊ฐ€์žฅ ์ฃผ์š”ํ•œ ์›์ธ์ผ ๊ฑฐ์˜ˆ์š”.
58:34
and today, as I said, more people commit suicide
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ ธ๋“ฏ์ด ์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ์ „์Ÿ์—์„œ ์ฃฝ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๋ณด๋‹ค
58:38
than are killed in war.
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๋” ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ์ž์‚ด๋กœ ์ฃฝ์–ด์š”.
58:40
So this, I think, gives us a good example
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์ €๋Š” ์ด ์„ ๋ก€๊ฐ€
58:45
that even the most frightening technology,
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์ œ์ผ ๋ฌด์‹œ๋ฌด์‹œํ•œ ๊ธฐ์ˆ ์—๋„ ์ธ๊ฐ„์ด ๋งž์„ค ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ณ ,
58:49
humans can rise up to the challenge
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์‚ฌ์‹ค ์ข‹์€ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๋„ ์–ป์–ด๋‚ผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑธ
58:51
and actually some good can come out of it.
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๋ณด์—ฌ์ฃผ๋Š” ์ข‹์€ ์˜ˆ์‹œ๊ฐ€ ๋œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด์š”.
58:54
The problem is, we have very little margin for error.
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๋ฌธ์ œ๋Š” ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒ ์‹ค์ˆ˜๋ฅผ ํ—ˆ์šฉํ•  ์—ฌ์œ ๊ฐ€ ๋งค์šฐ ์ ๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
58:59
If we don't get it right,
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์ œ๋Œ€๋กœ ํ•ด๋‚ด์ง€ ๋ชปํ•˜๋ฉด,
59:01
we might not have a second option to try again.
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๋‹ค์‹œ ํ•ด๋ณผ ๊ธฐํšŒ๋Š” ์—†์„ ์ˆ˜๋„ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
59:06
CA: That's a very powerful note,
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ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šค: ๊ต‰์žฅํžˆ ๊ฐ•๋ ฌํ•œ ๋ง์”€์ด๋„ค์š”.
59:07
on which I think we should draw this to a conclusion.
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์ด ๋ง์”€์„ ๋์œผ๋กœ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ๋งˆ์ณ์•ผ ํ•  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์•„์š”.
59:10
Before I wrap up, I just want to say one thing to people here
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๋๋งˆ์น˜๊ธฐ ์ „์— ์—ฌ๊ธฐ ๊ณ„์‹  ๋ถ„๋“ค๊ณผ ์˜จ๋ผ์ธ์—์„œ ์ƒ๋ฐฉ์†ก์œผ๋กœ ์‹œ์ฒญํ•˜๊ณ  ๊ณ„์‹ 
59:13
and to the global TED community watching online, anyone watching online:
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์ „์„ธ๊ณ„์˜ TED ์ปค๋ฎค๋‹ˆํ‹ฐ์™€ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋ชจ๋“  ๋ถ„๋“ค๊ป˜ ํ•œ๋งˆ๋””๋งŒ ๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ์š”.
59:19
help us with these dialogues.
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์ด ๋Œ€ํ™”์— ๋„์›€์„ ์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
59:22
If you believe, like we do,
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์ €ํฌ์ฒ˜๋Ÿผ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๋„
59:24
that we need to find a different kind of conversation,
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๊ทธ ์–ด๋Š๋•Œ๋ณด๋‹ค๋„ ์ง€๊ธˆ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ํ˜•ํƒœ์˜ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ์ฐพ์•„์•ผํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ 
59:27
now more than ever, help us do it.
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๋ฏฟ์œผ์‹ ๋‹ค๋ฉด, ์ €ํฌ๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ๋Ÿด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋„๋ก ๋„์›€์„ ์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
59:30
Reach out to other people,
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๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๋‹ค๊ฐ€๊ฐ€
59:33
try and have conversations with people you disagree with,
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๋“ค๊ณผ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์˜๊ฒฌ์„ ๊ฐ€์ง„ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๊ณผ ๋Œ€ํ™”๋ฅผ ์‹œ๋„ํ•ด ๋ณด๊ณ 
59:35
understand them,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•ด๋ณด๊ณ ,
59:37
pull the pieces together,
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์ƒ๊ฐ์„ ํ†ตํ•ฉํ•ด๋ณด์„ธ์š”.
59:38
and help us figure out how to take these conversations forward
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ด ๋Œ€ํ™”๊ฐ€ ์ง„์ „๋ ์ง€ ๊ณ ๋ฏผํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฑธ ๋„์™€์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
59:42
so we can make a real contribution
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์„ธ๊ณ„์—์„œ ํ˜„์žฌ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ์—
59:44
to what's happening in the world right now.
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ œ๋Œ€๋กœ ๊ธฐ์—ฌ๋ฅผ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒŒ์š”.
59:47
I think everyone feels more alive,
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๋ชจ๋‘๊ฐ€ ํ˜„์žฌ์˜ ์ •์น˜์— ๊ด€ํ•ด
59:50
more concerned, more engaged
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๋” ํ™œ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋Š๋ผ๊ณ 
59:53
with the politics of the moment.
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๋” ์šฐ๋ ค์™€ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ฒŒ ๋˜์‹  ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
59:55
The stakes do seem quite high,
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์œ„ํ—˜์ด ๋งค์šฐ ์ปค ๋ณด์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
59:58
so help us respond to it in a wise, wise way.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ €ํฌ๊ฐ€ ํ˜„๋ช…ํ•˜๊ฒŒ ๋Œ€์ฒ˜ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒŒ ๋„์™€์ฃผ์„ธ์š”.
60:02
Yuval Harari, thank you.
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์œ ๋ฐœ ํ•˜๋ผ๋ฆฌ, ๊ฐ์‚ฌํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
60:04
(Applause)
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(๋ฐ•์ˆ˜)
์ด ์›น์‚ฌ์ดํŠธ ์ •๋ณด

์ด ์‚ฌ์ดํŠธ๋Š” ์˜์–ด ํ•™์Šต์— ์œ ์šฉํ•œ YouTube ๋™์˜์ƒ์„ ์†Œ๊ฐœํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์ „ ์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ตœ๊ณ ์˜ ์„ ์ƒ๋‹˜๋“ค์ด ๊ฐ€๋ฅด์น˜๋Š” ์˜์–ด ์ˆ˜์—…์„ ๋ณด๊ฒŒ ๋  ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ๊ฐ ๋™์˜์ƒ ํŽ˜์ด์ง€์— ํ‘œ์‹œ๋˜๋Š” ์˜์–ด ์ž๋ง‰์„ ๋”๋ธ” ํด๋ฆญํ•˜๋ฉด ๊ทธ๊ณณ์—์„œ ๋™์˜์ƒ์ด ์žฌ์ƒ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ๋น„๋””์˜ค ์žฌ์ƒ์— ๋งž์ถฐ ์ž๋ง‰์ด ์Šคํฌ๋กค๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์˜๊ฒฌ์ด๋‚˜ ์š”์ฒญ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒฝ์šฐ ์ด ๋ฌธ์˜ ์–‘์‹์„ ์‚ฌ์šฉํ•˜์—ฌ ๋ฌธ์˜ํ•˜์‹ญ์‹œ์˜ค.

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