An interview with the founders of Black Lives Matter | Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi

翻译人员: Yinchun Rui 校对人员: alice leong

Mia Birdsong: Why is Black Lives Matter important for the US right now

Mia Birdsong: 为什么“Black Lives Matter” （珍视黑人生命）运动

对现在的美国以及全世界很重要？

and in the world?

Patrisse Cullors: Black Lives Matter is our call to action.

Patrisse Cullors: “Black Lives Matter”是我们对行动的呼吁，

It is a tool to reimagine a world

它是一个重新构建世界的工具，

where black people are free to exist,

一个黑人可以自由生长

free to live.

无拘无束生活的世界。

It is a tool for our allies to show up differently for us.

这个工具也可以让我们的盟友 用不同的形式参与到我们之中。

I grew up in a neighborhood that was heavily policed.

我生活在一个有很多警察的社区里面，

I witnessed my brothers and my siblings

我亲眼目睹我的兄弟姐妹们，

continuously stopped and frisked by law enforcement.

时不时的被警察拦住并搜身。

I remember my home being raided.

我仍记得我家被突袭时的情景，

And one of my questions as a child was, why?

我小时候常会有的一个疑问就是， 为什么?

为什么是我们？

Why us?

为什么？

Black Lives Matter offers answers to the why.

“珍视黑人生命”给我们提供了答案，

It offers a new vision for young black girls around the world

它为世界上年轻的黑人女孩儿 提供了一种新观念，

that we deserve to be fought for,

那就是, 我们是值得 人们为了我们而奋斗的，

that we deserve to call on local governments to show up for us.

我们有资格向政权索取我们的权益。

Opal Tometi: And antiblack racism --

Opal Tometi: 那么"反对对黑人种族歧视"运动？

(Applause)

(掌声)

And antiblack racism is not only happening in the United States.

"反对对黑人种族歧视" 运动不仅仅发生在美国，

It's actually happening all across the globe.

实际上它已经蔓延至全世界了。

And what we need now more than ever is a human rights movement

现在, 我们比以往任何时候 都更需要人权运动

that challenges systemic racism in every single context.

来对抗任何形式下的歧视。

(Applause)

（掌声）

We need this because the global reality

我们之所以需要这个是因为，

is that black people are subject to all sorts of disparities

当今社会问题所产生的差异问题

in most of our most challenging issues of our day.

都是由黑人在承担。

I think about issues like climate change,

当我们考虑到气候变化时，

and how six of the 10 worst impacted nations by climate change

你会发现，受气候变化影响 最严峻的10个国家中，

are actually on the continent of Africa.

有6个属于非洲大陆。

People are reeling from all sorts of unnatural disasters,

由于各种各样的非自然灾难

displacing them from their ancestral homes

人们不得不背井离乡，

and leaving them without a chance at making a decent living.

甚至连获得好生活的机会都没有。

We also see disasters like Hurricane Matthew,

让我们再想想像飓风“马修” 这样的灾难，

which recently wreaked havoc in many different nations,

最近它对很多国家 都造成了严重的破坏，

but caused the most damage to Haiti.

但是受到破坏最严重的地方却是海地。

Haiti is the poorest country in this hemisphere,

海地是南半球最贫穷的国家

and its inhabitants are black people.

而且它的居民都是黑人

And what we're seeing in Haiti

我们在海地见到的是

is that they were actually facing a number of challenges

实际上，他们在飓风来之前

that even preceded this hurricane.

就已经面临着一系列的困难和挑战。

They were reeling from the earthquake,

他们因地震受灾，

they were reeling from cholera that was brought in by UN peacekeepers

因霍乱受苦，

这霍乱就是由联合国维和部队传入的

and still hasn't been eradicated.

到现在还有完全被消除。

This is unconscionable.

这一切都是不合理的，

And this would not happen if this nation didn't have a population that was black,

但是如果这个国家不是一个黑人国家

事情的结果就不会是这样。

and we have to be real about that.

对于这一点我们必须认真对待。

But what's most heartening right now

但是现在最令人激动人心的是，

is that despite these challenges,

除了我们所面临的这些挑战之外，

what we're seeing is that there's a network of Africans

我们看到了在整个非洲大陆的民众，

all across the continent

形成了一个网络，

who are rising up and fighting back and demanding climate justice.

共同起义、斗争并追求气候正义。

(Applause)

（掌声）

MB: So Alicia,

MB: 那么 Alicia,

you've said that when black people are free,

你曾经说过当黑人自由了以后

everyone is free.

所有人就都自由了。

Can you talk about what that means?

能给我们大家讲讲这句话的意思吗？

Alicia Garza: Sure.

Alicia Garza: 当然可以。

So I think race and racism is probably the most studied

我想种族和种族歧视，

可能是美国在社会、 经济和政治等方面

social, economic and political phenomenon in this country,

研究的最多的两个话题，

but it's also the least understood.

但同时也是 被理解的最不全面的两个问题。

The reality is that race in the United States

现实情况是，美国的种族情况是

operates on a spectrum from black to white.

由黑到白像光谱一样分布的。

Doesn't mean that people who are in between don't experience racism,

这并不意味着肤色在黑白之间的人 就不受种族歧视，

but it means that the closer you are to white on that spectrum,

这意味着你的肤色越接近白色，

the better off you are.

你的生活就越好，

And the closer to black that you are on that spectrum

而肤色越接近黑色，

the worse off your are.

那你的生活就越糟糕。

When we think about how we address problems in this country,

当我们考虑如何在美国 解决这个问题时，

we often start from a place of trickle-down justice.

我们总是想用 自上到下的“滴漏效应”解决。

So using white folks as the control we say,

所以，像之前说的那样，

我们希望运用白人的力量,

well, if we make things better for white folks

如果我们为白人提供了更好的生活,

then everybody else is going to get free.

那么其他人也会随之变得自由。

But actually it doesn't work that way.

但实际上事情并没有 向理想的方向发展，

We have to address problems at the root,

因而我们必须从问题的根源出发。

and when you deal with what's happening in black communities,

只有当我们真正解决了 黑人社会的问题以后

it creates an effervescence, right?

这一切才能真正产生“泡腾反应”， 对不对？

So a bubble up rather than a trickle down.

所以我们应该自下而上考虑， 而不是自上而下。

Let me give an example.

我来举一个例子。

When we talk about the wage gap,

当我们考虑收入差距时

we often say women make 78 cents to every dollar that a man makes.

我们总是说当男人每挣1美元时， 女人只能挣78美分，

You all have heard that before.

我们都应该听说过这个说法。

But those are the statistics for white women and white men.

但这个数据仅适用于白人男人和女人。

The reality is that black women make something like 64 cents

现实情况是， 当白人女性挣78美分时，

to every 78 cents that white women make.

黑人女性只能挣64美分，

When we talk about latinas, it goes down to about 58 cents.

而拉丁裔女性则更低， 只有58美分。

If we were to talk about indigenous women,

那如果我们考虑原住民妇女呢？

if we were to talk about trans women,

如果考虑变性者呢？

it would even go further down.

她们的工资将会更低。

So again,

所以我希望再次重申，

if you deal with those who are the most impacted,

当我们帮助那些最受影响的人群时，

everybody has an opportunity to benefit from that,

每个人都有机会从中受益。

rather than dealing with the folks who are not as impacted,

而不是去帮助那些不受影响的人群，

and expecting it to trickle down.

期待着所谓的“滴漏效应。”

MB: So I love the effervescence,

MB: 所以我更喜欢泡腾剂

bubbling up.

喜欢泡腾效应

AG: Effervescence -- like champagne.

AG: 泡腾就像香槟一样

(Laughter)

（笑声）

MB: Who doesn't love a glass of champagne, right?

MB: 谁能拒绝一杯香槟呢？

Champagne and freedom, right?

谁又能拒绝香槟和自由呢？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

What more could we want, y'all?

我们还能期待些什么呢？

So you all have been doing this for a minute,

你们做这些事已经有一段时间了，

and the last few years have been --

在最近这几年，

well, I can't even imagine,

我真的无法想象，

but I'm sure very transformative.

但我相信你们一定有着巨大的变化。

And I know that you all have learned a lot about leadership.

而且我知道你们都对领导力 有了一些新的认识。

What do you want to share with these people

你们想不想与大家分享下

about what you've learned about leadership?

在领导力方面都学到了那些呢?

首先从你开始吧，Patrisse。

Patrisse, let's start with you.

PC: 我们必须加强 在黑人领导力上的投入

PC: Yeah, we have to invest in black leadership.

That's what I've learned the most in the last few years.

这是我在过去这几年里 体会最深的事。

(Applause)

(掌声)

What we've seen is thousands of black people showing up for our lives

我们看到的是，

成千上万的黑人在生活中，

with very little infrastructure and very little support.

几乎没有基础设施的支持。

I think our work as movement leaders isn't just about our own visibility

我认为作为领导者的那段时间里，

不是为了增加我们自己的关注度，

but rather how do we make the whole visible.

更重要的是我们怎么为 所有黑人赢得关注度。

How do we not just fight for our individual selves

我们怎样为所有人战斗，

but fight for everybody?

而不是仅仅是为了我们自己。

And I also think

而且我还认为，

leadership looks like everybody in this audience

领导力就像是这些为了黑人的生命

showing up for black lives.

而出现在这里的观众，

It's not just about coming and watching people on a stage, right?

你们来不只是来看看台上的人, 是不是?

It's about how do you become that leader --

而是你如何成为和担任一名领导者？

whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in your home --

无论是工作岗位, 还是在家里，

and believe that the movement for black lives isn't just for us,

而且你相信“珍视黑人生命"运动 不仅仅是为了黑人

but it's for everybody.

而是为了所有人。

(Applause)

(掌声)

MB: What about you, Opal?

MB:那你呢, Opal?

OT: So I've been learning a great deal about interdependence.

OT: 我学到最多的就是互相依靠。

I've been learning about how to trust your team.

我学会了如何信任你的团队，

I've come up with this new mantra

从三个月的假期生活回来之后

after coming back from a three-month sabbatical,

我有了一个新的格言，

which is rare for black women to take who are in leadership,

（这么长的假期）对于 黑人女领导者来说

是很少见的。

but I felt it was really important for my leadership and for my team

但我认为，对于我和我的团队来说，

to also practice stepping back

体会退后

as well as also sometimes stepping in.

和体会前进一样重要。

And what I learned in this process was that we need to acknowledge

在整个的这个过程当中我学到了，

我们要意识到， 不同的人会贡献不同的力量，

that different people contribute different strengths,

and that in order for our entire team to flourish,

这样才能使我们整个团队兴盛，

we have to allow them to share and allow them to shine.

而且我们必须为他人提供 分享以及发光发亮的机会。

And so during my sabbatical

所以在我的假期日子里

with the organization that I also work with,

对于我的组织成员

I saw our team rise up in my absence.

我看到了

我的团队在没有我在的日子里 更加强大了。

They were able to launch new programs,

他们开展了很多新项目，

fundraise.

组织了很多新的募捐活动。

And when I came back,

而且，当我回来以后，

I had to give them a lot of gratitude and praise

我要给予他们很多感激和赞扬，

because they showed me that they truly had my back

因为他们告诉了我他们可以 当我坚实的后盾，

and that they truly had their own backs.

同时也是他们自己的坚实后盾。

You know, in this process of my sabbatical,

在我休假的这段日子里

I was really reminded

我想到了

of this Southern African philosophy of Ubuntu.

南非哲学家乌班图的话

I am because you are;

“因为有你才会有我”

you are because I am.

“也因为有我才会有你。”

And I realized that my own leadership,

我意识到在我做领头人的过程中，

and the contributions that I'm able to make,

我所作出的贡献，

is in large part due to the contributions that they make, right?

在很大的程度上 都是我团队所作出的贡献。

And I have to acknowledge that, and I have to see that,

我必须要知道这一点， 我也必须要看到这一点。

and so my new mantra is, "Keep calm and trust the team."

所以我的新格言就是 “保持镇静，相信团队”

And also,

还有，

"Keep calm and thank the team."

“保持镇静，感谢团队。”

MB: You know, one of the things I feel like I've heard

MB: 对于“珍视黑人生命”运动

in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement more than anywhere else

我听到的最多的一点就是，

它比任何其他运动

is about being a leaderful movement,

都更趋向一个“领导性“运动。

and that's such a beautiful concept,

这是一个非常好的一点。

and I think that something

而且我认为，

that women often bring to the conversation about leadership

当女性开始经常讨论 关于领导力的话题时，

is really the collective piece.

这才是一个完整讨论。

What about you, Alicia?

那你有什么感受呢，Alicia？

AG: Yeah ...

AG: 至于我...

How many of you heard that saying that leadership is lonely?

在座的有多少人听过 “领导者总是孤独的”这种说法？

I think that there is an element where leadership is lonely,

我认为成为领导者的一个因素 就是要体会孤独，

but I also believe that it doesn't have to be like that.

但我也相信事情也并不一定是这样。

And in order for us to get to that point,

为了做到这一点，

I think there's a few things that we need to be doing.

我想有些事是需要我们去做的。

So one is we have to stop treating leaders like superheroes.

其中一点就是 不要将领导者当成超级英雄,

We are ordinary people attempting to do extraordinary things,

我们只是想做不寻常的事的寻常人，

and so we need to be supported in that way.

所以我们需要这方面的支持。

The other thing that I've learned about leadership

另一件我学到的事就是，

is that there's a difference between leadership and celebrities, right?

领导者和名人不是一回事，对吧？

And there's a way in which we've been kind of transformed into celebrities

但是有时候我们也许会被变成名人，

rather than people who are trying to solve a problem.

而不是解决问题的人。

And the way that we treat celebrities is very fickle, right?

我们对待名人的态度总是易变的， 不是么？

We like them one day,

有一天我们喜欢上了这个人，

we don't like what they're wearing the next day,

可是第二天我们 因为不喜欢的他的穿着就讨厌他了

and all of a sudden we have issues, right?

不是吗?

So we need to stop deifying leaders

所以我们不要再给“领导者” 这个词下定义了

so that more people will step into leadership.

这样才能使更多的人加入进来。

Lots of people are terrified to step into leadership

很多人不愿意加入领导层

because of how much scrutiny they receive

是因为他们看到了太多的坏现象，

and how brutal we are with leaders.

也因为人们通常对领导者太过严苛。

And then the last thing that I've learned about leadership

我作为领导者学到的最后一件事是，

is that it's really easy to be a leader when everybody likes you.

当大家都喜欢你的时候

做一个领导者真的很容易。

But it's hard to be a leader when you have to make hard choices

而困难的是，

当你要做一个艰难的选择的时候，

and when you have to do what's right,

而且这还是一个正确的选择，

even though people are not going to like you for it.

尽管你知道 人们可能不喜欢你这么做。

And so in that way,

因此,

我认为支持领导者的另一种方式,

I think another way that we can support leaders

is to struggle with us,

就是与我们一起挣扎

but struggle with us politically,

这种挣扎是站在政治的角度上的

not personally.

而不是站在个人的角度。

We can have disagreements without being disagreeable,

我们可以在轻松愉快的环境下 提出自己的质疑。

but it's important for us to sharpen each other,

更重的是， 这样我们可以帮助对方变得更强大，

so that we all can rise.

因而让我们整体变得更强大。

MB: That's beautiful, thank you.

MB: 说的真是太好了

(Applause)

（掌声）

So you all are doing work

所以说无论是在工作中还是在生活中

that forces you to face some brutal, painful realities

你们都不得不面临一些

残忍和痛苦的现实。

on a daily basis.

What gives you hope

那么，在这种情况下， 究竟是什么给予你们希望

and inspires you in that context?

鼓舞你们前进的呢？

PC: I am hopeful for black futures.

PC: 我对黑人的未来充满希望

And I say that because we live in a society

我之所以这么说是因为

我门住在一个

that's so obsessed with black death.

充斥着黑人死亡的社会。

We have images of our death on the TV screen,

我在电视上能看到黑人死亡的画面

on our Twitter timelines,

在推特上

on our Facebook timelines,

在脸书上也都能看到

but what if instead we imagine black life?

但如果我们想象一下黑人的生活呢？

We imagine black people living and thriving.

我们想象一个黑人可以自由生长， 欣欣向荣的社会。

And that --

而这种想法,

that inspires me.

深深的鼓舞了我。

OT: What inspires me these days are immigrants.

OT: 最近一段时间对我 产生鼓舞的是那些移民者

Immigrants all over the world who are doing the best that they can

世界各国的移民者们 都在尽自己最大的努力

to make a living, to survive and also to thrive.

生存着、生活着并繁荣起来。

Right now there are over 244 million people

现在，世界上有2亿4千4百万人

who aren't living in their country of origin.

没有生活在他们原有的国家。

This is a 40 percent increase since the year 2000.

这一数字较2000年相比增加了40%。

So what this tells me

这就告诉了我们

is that the disparities across the globe are only getting worse.

全球范围内的不平等变得更严重了。

Yet there are people who are finding the strength and wherewithal to travel,

的确，这些人想尽办法通过各种金钱和手段

到别处旅行、搬家

to move,

to eke out a better living for themselves

为他们自己寻求更好的生活，

and to provide for their families and their loved ones.

同时也为他们的家人和爱人 提供更好的生活。

And some of these people who are immigrants

但是，这些移民者当中

也有着很多所谓的“黑户。”

are also undocumented.

They're unauthorized.

他们都是非法移民。

And they inspire me even more

但是这些人对我的鼓舞更大，

because although our society is telling them, you're not wanted,

因为尽管我们的社会不断的告诉他们

我们不想要你们

you're not needed here,

我们不需要你们。

and they're highly vulnerable and subject to abuse, to wage theft,

而且他们会经常受到拒绝， 得不到应有的薪水

to exploitation and xenophobic attacks,

会受到剥削，会受到本地人的袭击。

many of them are also beginning to organize in their communities.

但与此同时，

他们中的很多人已经开始成为 新社区的一部分.

And what I'm seeing is that there's also an emerging network

我还看到一个正在逐渐形成的网络,

of black, undocumented people who are resisting the framework,

这个网络由那些黑人非法移民组成,

他们与社会体制作斗争,

and resisting the criminalization of their existence.

与歧视作斗争， 与否认他们存在的那些人作斗争.

And that to me is incredibly powerful

这些人在我眼里是非常了不起的,

and inspires me every singe day.

激励着我的每一天.

MB: Thank you.

MB: 多谢你的分享

Alicia?

那么Alicia你呢?

AG: So we know that young people are the present and the future,

AG: 我们都知道年轻人 是我们的现在和未来,

but what inspires me are older people

但真正鼓舞我的却是那些老年人。

who are becoming transformed in the service of this movement.

他们在这场运动中正在改变。

We all know that as you get older,

我们都知道，当人变老了以后

you get a little more entrenched in your ways.

就会变的有些顽固不化。

It's happening to me, I know that's right.

因为我就是这样的。

But I'm so inspired when I see people who have a way that they do things,

当我看到有人以自己独有的方式去做事，

have a way that they think about the world,

以自己的方式思考世界时， 我总是深受鼓舞

and they're courageous enough to be open to listening to what the experiences are

而且他们还非常勇敢，

他们愿意开诚布公的倾听我们的经验教训。

of so many of us who want to live in world that's just

因为我们都希望活在一个公正

and want to live in a world that's equitable.

公平的世界中。

And I'm also inspired by the actions that I'm seeing older people taking

同时我也被那些长者

在此次运动中的行动所鼓舞。

in service of this movement.

I'm inspired by seeing older people step into their own power and leadership

当那些长者贡献自己的行动力 和领导力时，

我深受感动。

and say, "I'm not passing a torch,

他们说，“我们虽然没有传递火炬，

I'm helping you light the fire."

但是我们能帮助你们点燃它。“

(Applause)

（掌声）

MB: I love that --

MB: 这真是太了不起了

yes.

是的，

So in terms of action,

当然，就行动来说，

I think that it is awesome to sit here and be able to listen to you all,

我想坐在着听你们的分享 也是件了不起的事

and to have our minds open and shift,

这些分享可以使我们眼界开阔， 转换思路，

but that's not going to get black people free.

但这并不能够使黑人自由。

So if you had one thing you would like this audience

那么，如果有一件事是，

你们希望在座的观众以及其他的观众

and the folks who are watching around the world to actually do,

在现实社会中采取行动

what would that be?

这会是件什么事呢？

AG: OK, two quick ones.

AG: 我有两件事，但我会很快说完

One, call the White House.

第一，给白宫打电话。

The water protectors are being forcibly removed

因为那些水资源保护者们

一直被强制离开他们的抗议帐篷

from the camp that they have set up to defend what keeps us alive.

他们在那里对水资源破坏活动进行抗议

And that is intricately related to black lives.

而这些却是和黑人的生活息息相关的。

So definitely call the White House and demand that they stop doing that.

所以我希望大家立刻给白宫打电话，

要求他们停止驱逐行为。

There are tanks

他们甚至动用了坦克，

and police officers arresting every single person there as we speak.

而且在我们谈话的同时 有警察逮捕了在那儿的每一个人。

(Applause)

（掌声）

The second thing that you can do

第二件大家可以做的事，

is to join something.

就是加入一些事

Be a part of something.

参与到一些事当中

There are groups, collectives --

比如说一些小组或者团体

doesn't have to be a non-profit, you know what I mean?

也不一定必须是非盈利组织

我想大家明白我的意思吧？

But there are groups that are doing work in our communities right now

我们要加入那些正在把我们的社会，

变得更好的组织或团体中，

to make sure that black lives matter so all lives matter.

为的是保证黑人以及所有人的生命，

都是这个社会必不可少的一部分。

Get involved;

所以，参与进去，

don't sit on your couch and tell people what you think they should be doing.

不要只是坐在沙发上告诉别人，

你认为他们应该怎么做。

Go do it with us.

与我们一起行动起来。

MB: Do you guys want to add anything?

MB: 你们还有什么想补充的吗？

That's good? All right. So --

这就样了？那么，好...

And I think that the joining something,

我想加入一些团体或者组织，

like if you feel like there's not something where you are, start it.

就像当你感觉事情不对时，

就要着手开始去改变它。

AG: Start it.

AG: 是的，行动起来

MB: These conversations that we're having,

MB: 希望听了我们现在讨论的这些

have those conversations with somebody else.

以及我们和其他人的谈话，

能够使大家真正的决定开始做一些事，

And then instead of just letting it be a talk that you had,

actually decide to start something.

而不仅仅听过就算了。

OT: That's right.

OT: 是的，没错。

MB: I mean, that's what you all did.

MB: 因为这是我们应该去做的事

You started something, and look what's happened.

开始做一件事情， 然后看看有什么事发生

Thank you all so much for being here with us today.

非常感谢各位能与我们一起分享 你们的心得

OT: Thank you.

OT: 也很感谢您。

(Applause)

(掌声)