An interview with the founders of Black Lives Matter | Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi

譯者: yue chen 審譯者: Bighead Ge

Mia Birdsong: Why is Black Lives Matter important for the US right now

Mia Birdsong（MB）：為什麼現在

「黑人生命也重要」 對美國來說很重要，

and in the world?

對全世界來說也很重要？

Patrisse Cullors: Black Lives Matter is our call to action.

Patrisse Cullors（PC）： 這是一個呼籲人們的行動。

It is a tool to reimagine a world

一個能讓人重新想像世界的一種工具，

where black people are free to exist,

黑人能夠自由存在，

free to live.

自由生活。

It is a tool for our allies to show up differently for us.

它是一種工具， 能讓我們的盟友 改變對我們的看法。

I grew up in a neighborhood that was heavily policed.

我在一個治安非常嚴格的社區長大

I witnessed my brothers and my siblings

我看見我的兄弟姐妹們

continuously stopped and frisked by law enforcement.

不斷地被法律限制和搜身。

I remember my home being raided.

我記得，我的家被搜捕。

And one of my questions as a child was, why?

我小時候常想的問題之一是：為什麼？

Why us?

為什麼是我們？

Black Lives Matter offers answers to the why.

「黑人生命也重要」解答了我的疑惑。

It offers a new vision for young black girls around the world

它讓全世界的年輕黑女孩們 有了新的願景：

that we deserve to be fought for,

我們值得有人為我們發聲，

that we deserve to call on local governments to show up for us.

我們值得要求當地的政府支持我們。

Opal Tometi: And antiblack racism --

Opal Tometi（OT)：對黑人的偏見...

(Applause)

（掌聲）

And antiblack racism is not only happening in the United States.

對黑人的偏見不止發生在美國，

It's actually happening all across the globe.

全世界都有類似的情況發生。

And what we need now more than ever is a human rights movement

而我們現在最需要的 是保護權利的行動，

that challenges systemic racism in every single context.

在每一種情況裡 都能挑戰種族歧視的行動。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

We need this because the global reality

我們需要這項行動， 因為全世界的現狀是

is that black people are subject to all sorts of disparities

黑人正受到各種各樣的不平等待遇，

in most of our most challenging issues of our day.

而這是對我們來說最為棘手的事情。

I think about issues like climate change,

我想著關於氣候變化的議題，

and how six of the 10 worst impacted nations by climate change

而我發現，受環境改變影響 最嚴峻的十個國家中

are actually on the continent of Africa.

有六個屬於非洲大陸。

People are reeling from all sorts of unnatural disasters,

由於各種非自然災難，

displacing them from their ancestral homes

人們被迫離鄉背井，

and leaving them without a chance at making a decent living.

甚至連獲得體面生活的機會都沒有。

We also see disasters like Hurricane Matthew,

讓我們再想想 像颶風「馬修」這樣的災難，

which recently wreaked havoc in many different nations,

最近它對很多國家 都造成了嚴重的破壞，

but caused the most damage to Haiti.

但是受到破壞最嚴重的地方，是海地。

Haiti is the poorest country in this hemisphere,

海地是這半球最貧窮的國家，

and its inhabitants are black people.

而它的居民都是黑人。

And what we're seeing in Haiti

我們在海地見到的是，

is that they were actually facing a number of challenges

實際上，他們在颶風來之前

that even preceded this hurricane.

They were reeling from the earthquake,

他們因地震受災，

they were reeling from cholera that was brought in by UN peacekeepers

因由聯合國維和部隊帶進來的霍亂受苦，

and still hasn't been eradicated.

而這到現在還沒有完全被消除。

This is unconscionable.

這是不合理的。

And this would not happen if this nation didn't have a population that was black,

如果這國家不是個黑人國家， 事情的结果就不會是這樣。

and we have to be real about that.

對於這一點我們必須認真對待。

But what's most heartening right now

但是現在最令人激動人心的是，

is that despite these challenges,

除了我們所面臨的這些挑戰之外，

what we're seeing is that there's a network of Africans

我們看到了在整個非洲大陸的民眾

all across the continent

形成了一個網絡，

who are rising up and fighting back and demanding climate justice.

一起鬥爭並追求環境正義。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

MB: So Alicia,

MB：那麼 Alicia，

you've said that when black people are free,

你曾經說過，當黑人自由了以後，

everyone is free.

所有人就都自由了。

Can you talk about what that means?

Alicia Garza: Sure.

Alicia Garza（AG)：當然可以。

So I think race and racism is probably the most studied

可能是美國在社會、經濟、政治等 方面，研究最多的兩個話題。

social, economic and political phenomenon in this country,

but it's also the least understood.

但同時也是最不被 深刻理解的兩個問題。

The reality is that race in the United States

現實是，美國的種族情況是

operates on a spectrum from black to white.

由黑到白像光譜一樣分佈的。

Doesn't mean that people who are in between don't experience racism,

這並不意味膚色介於 黑白之間的人就不受種族歧視，

but it means that the closer you are to white on that spectrum,

這意味著你的膚色越接近白色，

the better off you are.

And the closer to black that you are on that spectrum

the worse off your are.

那你的生活就越糟糕。

When we think about how we address problems in this country,

當我們考慮如何在美國 解決這個問題時，

we often start from a place of trickle-down justice.

我們總是想用自上到下的 「滴漏效應」解決。

So using white folks as the control we say,

所以，像之前說的那樣， 我們希望運用白人的力量，

well, if we make things better for white folks

如果我們為白人提供了更好的生活，

then everybody else is going to get free.

那麼其他人也會隨之變得自由。

But actually it doesn't work that way.

但實際上，事情並沒有 向理想的方向發展。

We have to address problems at the root,

因而我們必須從問題的根源出發，

and when you deal with what's happening in black communities,

只有當我們真正解決了 黑人社會的問題以後，

it creates an effervescence, right?

這一切才能真正產生 「泡騰反應」，對吧？

So a bubble up rather than a trickle down.

所以我們應該自下而上考慮， 而不是自上而下。

Let me give an example.

舉個例子。

When we talk about the wage gap,

we often say women make 78 cents to every dollar that a man makes.

我們總是說當男人每掙一美元時， 女人只能掙 78 美分。

You all have heard that before.

我們都應該聽說過這個說法。

But those are the statistics for white women and white men.

但這個數據僅適用於 白人男人和女人。

The reality is that black women make something like 64 cents

現實是，當白人女性掙 78 美分時，

to every 78 cents that white women make.

黑人女性只能掙 64 美分。

When we talk about latinas, it goes down to about 58 cents.

而拉丁裔女性則更低，只有 58 美分。

If we were to talk about indigenous women,

if we were to talk about trans women,

it would even go further down.

她們的工資將會更低。

So again,

所以我希望再次重申，

if you deal with those who are the most impacted,

當我們幫助那些最受壓迫的人群時，

everybody has an opportunity to benefit from that,

每個人都有機會從中受益，

rather than dealing with the folks who are not as impacted,

而不是去幫助那些不受壓迫的人群，

and expecting it to trickle down.

並期待著所謂的「滴漏效應」。

MB: So I love the effervescence,

MB：所以我更喜歡泡騰劑，泡騰效應。

bubbling up.

AG: Effervescence -- like champagne.

AG：泡騰就像香檳。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

MB: Who doesn't love a glass of champagne, right?

MB：誰能拒絕一杯香檳呢？

Champagne and freedom, right?

誰又能拒絕香檳和自由呢？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

What more could we want, y'all?

這樣的東西當然越多越好，不是嗎？

So you all have been doing this for a minute,

你們已經做了一小段時間了，

and the last few years have been --

過去幾年裡一直...

well, I can't even imagine,

but I'm sure very transformative.

但我相信一定有著巨大的變化。

And I know that you all have learned a lot about leadership.

而且我知道你們都對領導力 有了一些新的認識。

What do you want to share with these people

想不想與大家分享

在領導力方面都學到了那些呢？

about what you've learned about leadership?

首先從 Patrisse 開始吧 。

Patrisse, let's start with you.

PC: Yeah, we have to invest in black leadership.

PC：我們必須加強投入於黑人領導力。

That's what I've learned the most in the last few years.

這是我在過去這幾年裡體會最深的事。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

What we've seen is thousands of black people showing up for our lives

我們這一路走來

看到了成千上萬的黑人在生活中，

with very little infrastructure and very little support.

幾乎接觸不到基礎公共設施 和應有的支持。

I think our work as movement leaders isn't just about our own visibility

我認為我們作為領導者的那段時間裡，

不僅僅是為了增加我們自己的能見度。

but rather how do we make the whole visible.

更重要的是如何 為所有黑人贏得關注。

而不是僅僅是為自己，

How do we not just fight for our individual selves

but fight for everybody?

而是為每個人。

And I also think

我也認為

leadership looks like everybody in this audience

領導就像這裡的每個聽眾

showing up for black lives.

為「黑人生命也重要」而出現。

It's not just about coming and watching people on a stage, right?

不僅僅是在台上看著大家，對吧？

It's about how do you become that leader --

而是如何成為領導者——

whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in your home --

無論是工作崗位，還是在家裡——

and believe that the movement for black lives isn't just for us,

請相信，「黑人生命也重要」運動 不單單是為了我們自己，

but it's for everybody.

(Applause)

（掌聲）

MB: What about you, Opal?

MB：那你呢， Opal？

OT: So I've been learning a great deal about interdependence.

OT：我學到最多的就是互相依靠，

I've been learning about how to trust your team.

我學會了如何信任自己的團隊。

I've come up with this new mantra

從三個月的假期生活回來之後，

after coming back from a three-month sabbatical,

我想到了兩個新口號。

which is rare for black women to take who are in leadership,

很少有黑人女領導者休這麼長的假期。

but I felt it was really important for my leadership and for my team

但我認為，對於我和我的團隊來說，

to also practice stepping back

as well as also sometimes stepping in.

And what I learned in this process was that we need to acknowledge

我們應當要意識到 不同的人會貢獻不同的力量，

that different people contribute different strengths,

and that in order for our entire team to flourish,

為使我們整個團隊興盛，

we have to allow them to share and allow them to shine.

我們必須分享，讓他人發光。

And so during my sabbatical

所以我在休假的日子裡

with the organization that I also work with,

從與我合作的組織那兒

I saw our team rise up in my absence.

看到了我們團隊 於我不在的日子裡更加壯大了。

They were able to launch new programs,

他們開展了很多新項目，

fundraise.

組織了很多新的募捐活動。

And when I came back,

回來後，

I had to give them a lot of gratitude and praise

我必須要給予他們很多感激和讚揚，

because they showed me that they truly had my back

因為他們展示出 他們可以當我堅實的後盾，

and that they truly had their own backs.

You know, in this process of my sabbatical,

I was really reminded

of this Southern African philosophy of Ubuntu.

南非哲學家烏班圖的話：

I am because you are;

因為有你才有我，

you are because I am.

也因為有我才有你。

And I realized that my own leadership,

而且我意識到，在我領導的過程中，

and the contributions that I'm able to make,

我能能夠貢獻，

is in large part due to the contributions that they make, right?

在很大程度上是團隊作出貢獻，對吧？

And I have to acknowledge that, and I have to see that,

我必須要知道、要看到這一點。

and so my new mantra is, "Keep calm and trust the team."

所以我的新格言是： 「保持鎮靜，相信團隊。」

And also,

還有，

"Keep calm and thank the team."

「保持鎮靜，感謝團隊。」

MB: You know, one of the things I feel like I've heard

MB：對於「黑人生命也重要」這運動，

in the context of the Black Lives Matter movement more than anywhere else

我聽到的最多的就是

它比其他運動更趨向 是個「領導性」運動，

is about being a leaderful movement,

and that's such a beautiful concept,

而這是一個非常好的一點。

and I think that something

我也認為，

that women often bring to the conversation about leadership

女性經常談到領導力

真的是集體的一部分。

is really the collective piece.

What about you, Alicia?

那你有什麼感受呢，Alicia？

AG: Yeah ...

AG： 至於我...

How many of you heard that saying that leadership is lonely?

在座的有多少人聽過

「領導者總是孤獨的」這種說法？

I think that there is an element where leadership is lonely,

我認為領導是有孤獨的成分在，

but I also believe that it doesn't have to be like that.

但我也相信未必得這樣。

And in order for us to get to that point,

為了做到這一點，

I think there's a few things that we need to be doing.

我想有些事是需要我們去做的。

So one is we have to stop treating leaders like superheroes.

其中一點就是不要 將領導者當成超級英雄。

We are ordinary people attempting to do extraordinary things,

and so we need to be supported in that way.

所以我們需要這方面的支持。

The other thing that I've learned about leadership

另一件我學到的事就是

is that there's a difference between leadership and celebrities, right?

領導者和名人不是一回事，對吧？

And there's a way in which we've been kind of transformed into celebrities

rather than people who are trying to solve a problem.

而不是解決問題的人。

And the way that we treat celebrities is very fickle, right?

我們對待名人的態度通常易變，對吧？

We like them one day,

今天我們喜歡這個人，

we don't like what they're wearing the next day,

可是明天就因為 不喜歡的他的穿著而討厭他了，

and all of a sudden we have issues, right?

不是嗎？

So we need to stop deifying leaders

所以我們不要再神化「領導者」了，

so that more people will step into leadership.

這樣才能使更多的人加入進來。

Lots of people are terrified to step into leadership

很多人害怕加入領導層

because of how much scrutiny they receive

是因為被太多的放大鏡檢視，

and how brutal we are with leaders.

以及我們對領導者多麼殘酷。

And then the last thing that I've learned about leadership

而最後一件我作為領導者 學到的事情就是

is that it's really easy to be a leader when everybody likes you.

當大家喜歡你的時候當個領導很容易。

But it's hard to be a leader when you have to make hard choices

當你面臨艱難選擇時卻很困難。

and when you have to do what's right,

而你必須做正確的選擇，

even though people are not going to like you for it.

儘管人們會因此而不喜歡你。

And so in that way,

I think another way that we can support leaders

is to struggle with us,

就是與我們一起努力，

but struggle with us politically,

站在政治的角度上努力，

not personally.

而不是站在個人的角度。

We can have disagreements without being disagreeable,

我們能在不傷感情的情況下意見不同，

but it's important for us to sharpen each other,

更重要的是幫助彼此變得更强大，

so that we all can rise.

因而讓我們整體變得更強大。

MB: That's beautiful, thank you.

MB： 說的真是太好了，謝謝。

(Applause)

So you all are doing work

無論是在工作中還是在生活中

that forces you to face some brutal, painful realities

你們都不得不面臨一些

殘忍和痛苦的現實。

on a daily basis.

What gives you hope

那麼，究竟是什麼給予你們希望，

and inspires you in that context?

PC: I am hopeful for black futures.

PC： 我對黑人的未來充滿希望。

And I say that because we live in a society

我們生活在一個對黑人死亡 如此著迷的社會中。

that's so obsessed with black death.

We have images of our death on the TV screen,

我在電視上能看到黑人死亡的畫面，

on our Twitter timelines,

on our Facebook timelines,

在臉書上也都能看到，

but what if instead we imagine black life?

但我們如何想像黑人的生活呢？

We imagine black people living and thriving.

我們想像充滿著生機 和繁榮的黑人社會。

And that --

這想法深深地鼓舞了我。

that inspires me.

OT: What inspires me these days are immigrants.

OT： 最近一段時間 對我產生鼓舞的是那些移民。

Immigrants all over the world who are doing the best that they can

世界各國的移民者們 都在儘自己最大的努力

to make a living, to survive and also to thrive.

繁榮地生存與生活。

Right now there are over 244 million people

現在，世界上有 2 億 4 千 4 百萬人

who aren't living in their country of origin.

沒有生活在他們原有的國家。

This is a 40 percent increase since the year 2000.

這一數字較 2000 年相比增加了 40%。

So what this tells me

這就告訴了我們

is that the disparities across the globe are only getting worse.

全球範圍內的不平等變得更嚴重了。

Yet there are people who are finding the strength and wherewithal to travel,

的確有人想盡辦法 通過各種金錢和手段

旅行、搬家，

to move,

to eke out a better living for themselves

為他們自己尋求更好的生活，

and to provide for their families and their loved ones.

也為他們的家人和愛人 提供更好的生活。

And some of these people who are immigrants

are also undocumented.

也有著很多所謂的「黑戶」，

They're unauthorized.

他們是非法移民。

And they inspire me even more

但是這些人對我的鼓舞更大，

because although our society is telling them, you're not wanted,

因為儘管我們社會不斷地說 我們不想要你們，

you're not needed here,

我們不需要你們，

and they're highly vulnerable and subject to abuse, to wage theft,

而且他們非常脆弱，易受虐待， 得不到應有的薪水，

to exploitation and xenophobic attacks,

受剝削，被本地人排擠襲擊，

many of them are also beginning to organize in their communities.

但他們中的很多人

已經開始組織社區，

And what I'm seeing is that there's also an emerging network

我還看到正在逐漸形成的網絡，

of black, undocumented people who are resisting the framework,

由無證的黑人移民所組成，

他們正在抵制這一框架，

and resisting the criminalization of their existence.

抵制將他們的存在視為犯罪。

And that to me is incredibly powerful

正是這些人每天激勵著我。

and inspires me every singe day.

MB: Thank you.

MB： 多謝你的分享。

Alicia?

那麼 Alicia 你呢？

AG: So we know that young people are the present and the future,

AG： 我們都知道年輕人 是我們的現在和未來，

but what inspires me are older people

但真正鼓舞我的卻是那些老年人，

who are becoming transformed in the service of this movement.

他們在這場運動中正在改變。

We all know that as you get older,

you get a little more entrenched in your ways.

就會變的有些頑固不化。

It's happening to me, I know that's right.

因為我就這樣。

But I'm so inspired when I see people who have a way that they do things,

當我看到有人以自己獨有的方式做事，

以自己的方式思考世界時， 我總是深受鼓舞。

have a way that they think about the world,

and they're courageous enough to be open to listening to what the experiences are

而且他們還非常勇敢，

他們願意開誠佈公地 傾聽我們的經驗教訓，

of so many of us who want to live in world that's just

因為我們都希望活在 公正公平的世界中。

and want to live in a world that's equitable.

And I'm also inspired by the actions that I'm seeing older people taking

同時我也被那些長者

在此次運動中的行動所鼓舞。

in service of this movement.

I'm inspired by seeing older people step into their own power and leadership

那些長者貢獻自己的行動力 和領導力，我深受感動。

and say, "I'm not passing a torch,

他們說：「我們雖然沒有傳遞火炬，

I'm helping you light the fire."

但是我們能幫助你們點燃它。 」

(Applause)

（掌聲）

MB: I love that --

MB： 這真是太了不起了。

yes.

是的。

So in terms of action,

就行動來說，

I think that it is awesome to sit here and be able to listen to you all,

我想，聽你們的分享 也是件了不起的事。

and to have our minds open and shift,

這些分享可以使我們 眼界開闊，轉換思路，

but that's not going to get black people free.

但這並不能夠使黑人自由。

So if you had one thing you would like this audience

and the folks who are watching around the world to actually do,

你們希望在座的觀眾 以及世界上其他的觀眾

在現實社會中採取什麼樣的行動呢？

what would that be?

AG: OK, two quick ones.

AG： 有兩件事，我會很快說完。

One, call the White House.

第一，打電話給白宮。

The water protectors are being forcibly removed

因為那些水資源保護者們 一直被強制驅離，

from the camp that they have set up to defend what keeps us alive.

他們在那裡搭帳篷 抗議破壞水資源的行為。

And that is intricately related to black lives.

這些和黑人的生活息息相關，

So definitely call the White House and demand that they stop doing that.

所以我希望大家立刻打電話給白宮， 要求他們停止驅逐的行為。

There are tanks

他們甚至出動坦克，

and police officers arresting every single person there as we speak.

警察還逮捕了在那兒的每一個人。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

The second thing that you can do

is to join something.

就是參與。

Be a part of something.

參與一些事當中，

There are groups, collectives --

比如說一些小組或者團體，

doesn't have to be a non-profit, you know what I mean?

未必得是非盈利組織， 大家明白我的意思吧？

But there are groups that are doing work in our communities right now

我們要加入那些正在改善 我們社會的組織或團體，

to make sure that black lives matter so all lives matter.

為的是保證黑人以及所有人的生命 都是這個社會必不可少的一部分。

Get involved;

所以，參與進去。

don't sit on your couch and tell people what you think they should be doing.

不要只是坐在沙發上告訴別人 你認為他們應該怎麼做。

Go do it with us.

與我們一起來行動。

MB: Do you guys want to add anything?

MB： 你們還有什麼想補充的嗎？

That's good? All right. So --

這就樣了？那麼，好，

And I think that the joining something,

我想，加入一些團體或者組織...

like if you feel like there's not something where you are, start it.

就像當你感覺事情不對時， 就要著手開始去改變它。

AG: Start it.

AG： 是的，行動起來。

MB: These conversations that we're having,

MB： 希望聽了我們現在討論的這些，

have those conversations with somebody else.

以及我們和其他人的對談，

And then instead of just letting it be a talk that you had,

能夠使大家真正決定開始做些事，

actually decide to start something.

而不僅僅聽過就算了。

OT: That's right.

OT： 是的，沒錯。

MB: I mean, that's what you all did.

MB： 因為這就是我們應該去做的事。

You started something, and look what's happened.

開始做，看會發生什麼事。

Thank you all so much for being here with us today.

非常感謝各位能與我們 分享你們的心得。

OT: Thank you.

OT： 也很感謝您。

(Applause)

（掌聲）