Uğur Şahin and Özlem Türeci: Meet the scientist couple driving an mRNA vaccine revolution | TED

校对人员: Grace Man

克里斯·安德森 (Chris Anderson): 萨欣博士 (Chris Anderson)，

图雷西博士 (Dr. Türeci)， 非常欢迎。

能和你们交谈真是太好了。

厄兹勒姆·图雷西 (Özlem Türeci)： 十分感谢，克里斯。

Chris Anderson: Dr. Şahin and Dr. Türeci, welcome.

很高兴来到这里。

克·安：当你回顾过去的 18 个月，

Such a treat to speak with you.

头脑中会跳出哪些词？

Özlem Türeci: Thank you very much, Chris.

It's a pleasure to be here.

厄·图: 我能想到的 一个词是“气喘吁吁”。

CA: So tell me, as you think back over the last 18 months,

what words pop to mind for you?

对我们来说，这过去的 16 或 17 个月确实令人喘不过气。

ÖT: Well, one word which comes to mind is breathless.

我们去年 1 月 开始这项工作的时候，

It was indeed a breathless 16, 17 months for us.

就已经很清楚， 我们已身处疫情之中。

When we started in January last year,

我们尚不清楚的是， 疫情的发展速度会有多快，

it was already at that time clear to us that we were already in a pandemic.

我们是否有时间

What was not known was how fast this pandemic would evolve

在适当的时候， 足够快地研制出疫苗。

and whether we would have the time in the first place

我们明白，

to have a vaccine ready soon enough in due time.

这意味着我们不能 损失哪怕一天的时间。

And understanding this,

在美因滋，这是 BioNTech

it meant for us that there was not even one day to lose.

整个团队的观念模式。

之后，这也成为了

And this was the mindset of the entire team

辉瑞和其他伙伴的观念模式，

here in Mainz and at BioNTech

持续、快速前进。

and later on also of our partners which were involved,

克·安：你们想出来的主意和办法

Pfizer and others,

to keep going and be fast.

已经影响到了数亿， 甚至数十亿人口，

CA: I mean, it's so extraordinary that the ideas and the work in your minds

这真是太了不起了。

这肯定是一种排山倒海的感觉。

但是，我也知道

have now impacted hundreds of millions,

你们不相信昙花一现的主意。

perhaps billions of people.

That must feel overwhelming.

史蒂文·约翰逊 (Steven Johnson)， 《[好]主意是从哪里来的》的作者，

And yet, I know at the same time,

you don't believe in this notion of a flash-in-the-pan ideas.

在这本书里谈到了“慢直觉”，

最好的主意要用 多年的时间才会产生。

我知道，你们认为， 就你们而言，这是正确的。

Steven Johnson, the author, in his book "Where [Good] Ideas Come From,"

我想让咱们回到几十年前—— 跟我们说说，这一切是怎么开始的。

speaks of the slow hunch,

that the best ideas happen over many years.

你们俩是怎么遇到的？

厄·图: 我们是在 血液肿瘤病房遇到的，

And I know that you believe that is true in your case.

I'd like us to go back a couple of decades to -- tell us how this began.

乌尔当时是一位年轻的内科医生，

How did you meet?

ÖT: We met on an oncohematology ward,

我还在医学院接受病房训练。

Uğur being a young physician,

这意味着，我们相遇的地方是一个

and I was still in medical school training on ward.

对我们将十分重要的世界。

这是个照顾患者，

Which means we met in one of the worlds

治疗血液肿瘤病人的世界。

which became important to us,

我们很快发现

还有另一个让我们喜爱的世界，

the world of patient care,

那就是科学的世界。

of treating oncohematology patients.

我们为同一个两难困境所困扰，

And we soon found out

that there was a second world which we liked,

一方面我们为癌症患者 提供不了太多帮助，

namely the world of science.

We were haunted by the same dilemma,

然而，我们在实验室里 遇到许多很有潜力的技术，

namely that whereas there was not much we could offer our cancer patients,

这些技术可以解决这个问题。

所以，我们共同的愿景是，

there were so many potential technologies we encountered in the lab

通过努力推动科学技术的快速发展

which could address this.

So one of our shared visions

来解决这个困境。

was to bridge this dilemma

“快速”是个至关重要的词。

by working on bringing science and technology fast.

将科技快速带到患者的床榻， 以满足医疗的高度需求

And that's an important word here.

克·安: 我想，差不多 20 年前， 你们创立的第一家公司

Fast to the patient's bedside to address high medical need.

是利用人体免疫系统的 自身力量来治疗癌症。

CA: So I think the first company you founded nearly 20 years ago

乌尔·萨欣：我们的兴趣一直都是 利用病人的免疫系统

was to use the power of the human immune system to tackle cancer.

来抵抗癌症及其他类型的疾病。

Uğur Şahin: We were always interested in using the patient's immune system

作为免疫学专家，我们知道人类的 免疫系统有多么强大。

to fight cancer and other type of diseases.

但是同样清楚的是，就癌症而言，

As immunologists, we knew how powerful the human immune system is.

人类的免疫系统

并不与癌细胞展开搏斗。

But it was also clear that the human immune system,

它可以抵抗癌细胞， 但是没有做出这样的反应。

in the case of cancer,

为此，我们想到要研发免疫疗法。

did not fight cancer cells.

就是说，利用免疫系统的 力量来进行治疗，

It could fight it, but it didn't.

And for that, we wanted to develop immunotherapies.

把这种力量导向癌细胞。

That means treatments that use the power of the immune system

当时很清楚，在大学里，

我们不可能继续培养单株抗体，

and redirect the power of the immune system to cancer cells.

因为培养单株抗体的成本巨大。

It was clear that in the university setting,

在开始临床试验前，

we could not continue to develop monoclonal antibodies

成本就已经在 2 千到 3 千万欧元，

because the cost for development of monoclonal antibodies

所以我们决定创建一家公司， 以此来获得资金。

before you can start a clinical trial,

was in the range of 20, 30 million euros,

克·安：公司开办不久，

你们就决定结婚了。

and therefore we decided to start a company to get the funding.

跟我讲讲你们婚礼当天的情况。

厄·图：那一天是经过精心策划的， 婚礼非常短暂。

CA: Now, soon after you started this company,

you decided to get married.

婚礼之后，我们就回到了实验室。

Tell me about your wedding day.

婚礼上的客人基本上 都是我们团队的成员，

ÖT: Day was well planned, a quick wedding.

And thereafter we went back to the laboratory

我们科研团队的人。

and our guests at our wedding, that was basically our team,

没有时间去浪费，克里斯。

克·安：（笑声）

那是个非常特别的蜜月。

似乎你们对彼此的爱

our research team.

So no time to lose, Chris.

与你们对这项工作的爱，

CA: (Laughs)

以及对它的重视紧密相关。

That was a pretty special honeymoon.

I mean, it seems like your love for each other

你们会如何描述 这些相互交叉的关系呢？

is very much bound up in your love for this work

and your sense of the importance of this work.

乌·萨: 我们是两个科学家。

How would you characterize those intersecting relationships there?

不管怎么说， 我们热爱自己从事的工作，

对于我们而言，

UŞ: We are really two scientists.

我们并不区分工作和 生活间的平衡关系。

At the end of the day, we love what we do,

and for us,

能够成为科学家， 从事自己热爱的工作，

we don't differentiate between work and life balance.

是我们的一种荣幸。

因此，我们把日常生活和 职业生活融合了起来。

It's for us really a privilege to be scientists,

to be able to do what we love.

这对我们来说非常正常。

And therefore, we combine our normal life with our professional life.

克·安：跟我讲讲，核糖核酸 RNA 这个非同寻常的分子，

你们怎么对它产生了兴趣？

And therefore, this is pretty normal for us.

CA: So talk to me about this extraordinary molecule RNA,

就我了解，你们工作的焦点 越来越集中在这方面，

这是如何发生的？

事实上，它促成了 BioNTech 的建立。

and how you got interested in it and how it became, as I understand it,

谈一谈这些情况。

an increasing focus of your work.

乌·萨：信使核糖核酸 mRNA 是一个自然分子，

And indeed, it led to the founding of BioNTech.

是最初的生命分子中的一种。

Talk about that.

它载有遗传信息。

UŞ: Yeah, mRNA is a natural molecule,

it's one of the first molecules of life.

但是，与脱氧核糖核酸 DNA 相比，它十分不稳定，

所以可以用来向人体细胞输送信息。

It is a carrier of genetic information.

But in contrast to DNA, it's not stable.

人体细胞可以利用 这些信息来生成蛋白质，

So it can be used to transfer information to human cells.

而蛋白质则可以用于治疗性情境，

And the human cells can use this information to build proteins,

比如，生成疫苗蛋白，

which can be used for therapeutic settings,

抗体蛋白，

或者其他药物蛋白。

for example, to make a protein which is a vaccine,

这类分子令我们着迷，

or to make a protein which is an antibody,

因为，很明显

or to make a protein which is another type of drug.

And we were fascinated by this molecule class,

mRNA 可以 很快在几天内生产出来。

because it was very clear

我们作为医学博士，

对研发个性化药物特别感兴趣。

that mRNA can be produced pretty fast, within a few days.

And we were, as MDs,

这意味着，为每一位癌症患者

we were particularly interested to develop personalized medicines.

特别制定一套治疗方案及免疫疗法，

因为癌症治疗中的一个关键挑战是

That means a treatment and immunotherapy

每位患者的肿瘤都不尽相同。

specifically designed for a cancer patient,

如果比较两位患者的

because one of the key challenges in cancer treatment,

同类型肿瘤的话，

is that every patient has a different tumor.

两个肿瘤间的相似度不到 3%，

If you compare two tumors of two patients

97% 的成分都很独特。

with the same type of tumor,

the similarity of the tumors is less than three percent

如今，仍然无法

解决患者肿瘤的独特性。

and 97 percent is really unique.

And today, it's still not possible

所以，

我们当时在寻找一种 可以用于免疫疗法的技术，

to address the uniqueness of the tumor of a patient.

这个技术可以在尽可能短的时间内

And therefore,

we were seeking for a technology which could be used for immunotherapy

研制出一种治疗方案。

我们的想法是 先获取肿瘤的基因排序，

and which could be used to develop a treatment

之后在几周之内制造一种

within the shortest possible time.

个性化的疫苗

The idea to get the genetic sequence of the tumor

克·安：是否可以说

在我们身上， 几乎所有重要的生物活动

and then make a vaccine which is personalized,

within a few weeks.

都是由蛋白质来完成的，

CA: Is it fair to say

that almost all of the significant things that happen to us biologically

而这些蛋白质正是 由 mRNA 制造的？

如果你能够理解 mRNA 的语言，

are actions done by proteins,

就可以参与到几乎每件

and that it's mRNA that actually makes those proteins?

对人类健康有重要意义的事情中。

If you can understand the language of mRNA,

厄·图：完全正确。

you can get involved in pretty much everything of significance

原则上讲，

信息指令存储在 DNA 里。

to the well-being of a human being.

ÖT: Exactly.

这些指令必须转化传达给蛋白质，

So in principle,

the information instructions are in the DNA.

因为蛋白质的作用是，维持细胞生命

These have to be translated into protein

和有机体的功能。

如何把 DNA 的指令

because proteins are the actors which keep our cells alive

and our organism functional.

在适当时刻和正确地点

And the way how to translate

what is instructed by DNA

传达给蛋白质

in a fashion that it is well-timed

是信使 RNA 的功能。

在某种程度上讲，信使 RNA

就蛋白质的合成时间和 所需数量做出指示，

and happens at the right places, into protein,

there is messenger RNA.

Messenger RNA sort of instructs when

以此来确保我们身体的正常活动。

and how much of which protein has to be built

克·安：所以， 差不多可以把 DNA

看作是某种《牛津英语词典》。

in order to ensure the activity of our body.

差不多是一个参照点。

但是实际工作，

CA: So you can almost think of DNA

也就是语言在外部世界里 指导事物的工作，

as the sort of The Oxford English Dictionary of Language.

要由 mRNA 来完成。

It sort of sits there as the reference point.

乌·萨：是的，这绝对可能。

But for the actual living work,

人类细胞，

the living work of language out there in the world instructing things,

确切地说， DNA 就像一座图书馆。

that is done by mRNA.

如果你有一个 信使 RNA 的治疗平台，

UŞ: Yeah, absolutely, it is possible.

So the human cells,

你就可以传递任何类型的信息，

exactly, DNA is like a library.

而人体细胞可确保将信息转化成

If you have the platform for the messenger RNA therapy,

正确的蛋白质。

you can deliver any type of message

厄·图：mRNA 的 一大优势是用途广泛。

and the body cells ensure that the message is translated

你可以传递各种各样的信息， 就像乌尔说的那样。

into the right protein.

ÖT: A high advantage of mRNA is that it is so versatile.

一方面，你可以为需要在细胞内 生成的蛋白质传递蓝图。

You can deliver all sorts of messages, as Uğur has called them.

On the one hand, you can deliver the blueprint for the protein

但是，用同一种分子，

你还可以在 mRNA 内设计指令，

which you want to be produced in this cell.

规定该如何制造这个蛋白质。

But you can, with the same molecule,

also design into the mRNA

这些指令将传递给 细胞中的蛋白加工厂。

instructions how this protein should be built,

所以，你可以限定

是否希望大量或者长期

instructions to the protein factories of the cell.

So you can define

制造这种蛋白质，

whether you want this protein to be built in high amounts

以及蛋白质在细胞内 该如何发挥药物的代谢动力。

克·安：谈一谈去年一月份，

or for a long duration,

当时你们第一次听说 有一种新的病毒正在流行。

how the pharmacokinetics of this protein should be in the cell.

乌·萨：一月底的时候，

CA: So talk about January of last year

我们读到一篇关于 武汉爆发疫情的论文，

when you first heard about this new virus that was spreading.

意识到这次新近爆发的疫情

UŞ: So in the end of January,

具有成为全球大流行的所有特征，

we read a paper published about this outbreak in Wuhan,

我们担心生活将会发生改变，

and realized that this new outbreak

has all features to become a global pandemic,

这次爆发可能会改变人类的命运。

and we were concerned that our life will change,

我们知道，我们拥有 信使 RNA 技术，

that this outbreak could change the fate of mankind.

它实际上是为癌症的 个性化治疗而研发的。

And we knew that we have this messenger RNA technology,

但是这个个性化治疗癌症的想法

就是获取患者的基因信息，

which was actually developed for personalized cancer therapy.

然后尽快生产出一种疫苗。

我们当时处于类似的情形之中。

But the idea of personalized cancer therapy

但不是个性化的疫苗，

is to get the genetic information of the patient

而是病毒的基因信息，

and then make a vaccine as fast as possible.

这些信息在两个星期前 就已经公布了。

And we had now the same situation.

所以，我们可以获得 病毒的基因信息，

It was not a personalized vaccine,

but it was a genetic information of the virus,

我们的任务就是 尽快研造出一种疫苗。

which was released two weeks earlier.

And so this genetic information of this virus was available,

当时的挑战是

我们对病毒几乎一无所知。

and our task was to make a vaccine as fast as possible.

这是一种全新的病毒。

And the challenge at that time point was,

我们有一些假设，

there was almost nothing known about this virus.

即哪个分子在被病毒编码后

It was a completely new virus.

可以成为正确的目标分子。

We had some assumptions

这意味着，我们可以用这个分子来

which target which molecule encoded by the virus

设计精准的免疫攻击。

could be the right target.

That means the molecule which can be used

这个就是刺突蛋白。

它在病毒的表层。

病毒表面不只有一个刺突蛋白副本，

to precisely engineer an immune attack.

而是有 20，25，30 个刺突蛋白。

This is the spike protein.

It is on the surface of the virus.

And there's not only one copy of the spike protein on the virus,

刺突蛋白有两个功能。

but multiple in the range of 20, 25, 30 spike proteins.

一是使病毒能够附着在人体细胞上。

And the spike protein has two functions.

比如，它可以吸附在人的肺脏器官里。

One function is really to enable that the virus sticks to human cells.

第二个功能是，刺突蛋白 有钥匙的作用。

For example, it sticks to cells in the human lung.

它可以让病毒进入细胞。

And the second is that the spike protein acts as a key.

我们的目标是设计出一种免疫反应。

克·安：你们的一张幻灯片显示 T 细胞对你们的疫苗产生了反应。

It allows the virus to enter into the cells.

Our goal was to engineer an immune response.

你们工作了多久，才看到这个反应，

CA: You've got a slide showing the T-cell response to your vaccine.

才看到，哇，这里产生的 反应的确惊人？

厄·图：我们在动物模式中 就已经看了到这个反应，

How long were you into the process before you saw this

因为这些模式也是 用于评估免疫反应的。

and you saw, wow, there really is a spectacular response going on here?

ÖT: We saw this already in the animal models

在这个幻灯片上

左边显示的是一个淋巴结，

because they are also meant to assess the immune response.

其所处环境没有经过 RNA 处理， 也没有 RNA 疫苗。

And what is shown on this slide

is on the left side, a lymph node

右边显示的淋巴结来自 一个处理过的有机体，

from a setting where there was no RNA treatment or RNA vaccination.

这里，是一只动物。

And on the right side, a lymph node of a treated organism,

定位非常重要。

我们已经建构了 RNA 纳米粒子，

in this case, an animal.

把它用脂肪包裹起来，

And the localization matters.

这样 mRNA 就可以 被携带到淋巴结内，

And we have constructed our RNA nanoparticles,

with encapsulation into lipids

不是带到任何一个地方， 而是淋巴结。

such that the mRNA is carried into lymph nodes,

在淋巴结内，

它会接触到一类非常特殊的细胞， 称为树突细胞。

not just anywhere, it's carried into lymph nodes

这些细胞是免疫系统的教练。

and in the lymph nodes

it reaches a very special cell type, which is called dendritic cells,

他们是将军，集结各种 不同的特种部队，

and these cells are coaches of the immune system.

并在需要的攻击岗位上训练他们。

So they are the generals which call all the different special forces

抵达这些细胞非常重要。

and train them on the wanted poster of attacker.

在右边，你可以看到 抵达这些细胞所产生的效果。

And it's very important that you reach those cells.

你可以看到许多红色的斑点。

这些是 T 细胞，他们经过 训练可以识别抗原，

On the right side, you can see the effect of reaching those cells.

You see many red dots.

也就是 mRNA 传递的蛋白质。

And these are T-cells which have been trained to recognize the antigen,

可以说，T 细胞已经 扩大成某种克隆部队。

the protein which mRNA has delivered,

所以，所有这些红色斑点 组成了一只部队，

and they have expanded to a sort of army of clones, so to say.

他们只有一个目标，

So all these red dots are an army

即，攻击那个经 mRNA 编码过的特殊蛋白。

克·安：这个太惊人了。

which only knows one goal,

你们在看到，我猜，100 年间

namely attacking this specific protein encoded by the mRNA.

最危险的病原体序列后的几天内，

CA: So it's really stunning

that within just a few days of your looking at this sequence

就能得到这些备选疫苗。

of the most dangerous pathogen to hit humanity in 100 years, I guess,

我想，在此后的几周，或几个月内，

你们变得越来越有信心， 相信，哇，这个将会起作用。

that you were able to come up with these these candidate vaccines.

但是直到人体试验得出结果后，

And I guess over the course of the next weeks and months,

我想，那是去年11月，

you had growing confidence that, wow, this was going to work.

你们才能对此确信无疑。

跟我们谈谈那个时刻。

It wasn't until the results of the human trials came out,

厄·图：那是个星期日， 我们正在等待结果，

I guess in November of last year,

这些试验结果由 一个独立委员会进行评审。

that you really knew.

Tell us about that moment.

ÖT: It was a Sunday when we were waiting for these results,

乌尔说，“让咱们来看看 这些数据看起来如何。”

which are assessed in such trials by an independent committee

我们尚不清楚，结果是好还是坏。

and Uğur said, "So let's see how the data will look like."

我们松了一大口气。

当得知疫苗不但有效， 而且有效性超过 90% 时 ，

It was not clear whether it would be a thumbs up or down.

And we were very relieved.

我感到非常幸运。

And I felt blessed to hear that the vaccine was efficacious

克·安：超过 90% 的有效性 几乎遮盖了其全景，

and it was highly efficacious, over 90 percent.

因为疫苗针对的是任何 程度的冠状病毒感染。

CA: And that more than 90 percent almost disguises the full extent,

它几乎可以完全预防 重症感染和死亡,

because that's just against any kind of level of infection of COVID.

我是这么认为的。

对于你们而言，那必定是 一个欣喜若狂的时刻。

Severe infection and fatalities were almost completely protected against,

毫无疑问，对世界各地 很多人来说它正是如此。

乌·萨：是的，一点不错。

I think.

那是一个星期天的晚上，

And it must have been an ecstatic moment for you.

只有少数几个人知道，

Certainly was for so many people around the world.

世上有了一种可以有效对抗 这次全球疫情的疫苗。

UŞ: Yes, absolutely.

So this was a Sunday evening,

and there were a handful of people

我们非常激动，非常高兴，

knowing that an effective vaccine is existing against this global pandemic.

当然我们第二天就分享了这个消息。

And we were so excited and so happy

克·安：基于目前的状况，

and we shared of course this information the next day.

相较于任何其他疫苗的研发速度，

当前的加速度令人惊叹。

CA: So based on what's happened this time around

如果我们受到另一种病毒的冲击，

and the amazing acceleration,

你们是否可以想象，下次，

compared with any other vaccine development,

如果需要的话， 我们还可以进一步缩短时间表？

I mean, if we were hit by another virus,

乌·萨：是的，克里斯， 这是个很好的问题。

could you picture that next time

实际上，这个世界并没有准备好 来对付这样的大规模流行病。

we could accelerate the time line further still if need be?

科学和疫苗研发人员 做出了非常出色的反应。

UŞ: Yes, Chris, this is an excellent question.

Actually, the world was not prepared to deal with such a pandemic.

令人惊叹且难以置信的是，

The science and the vaccine developers reacted in an excellent fashion.

在疫情大流行期间， 用了不到 12 个月的时间，

就能生产出一种有效的疫苗。

And it is incredible and wonderful

that it was possible to come up with an effective vaccine

我们目前面对的挑战是

我们的生产能力不足。

while a pandemic is ongoing, in less than 12 months.

理想状况下， 我们可以为下次疫情做好准备，

But the challenges that we have at the moment

不仅要以光速来研发疫苗，

is that we don't have sufficient production capacity.

而且要以光速来制造和分配疫苗。

Ideally, we would be prepared the next time,

not only to develop a vaccine in light speed,

所以，我们现在需要的是 一个以前没有的附加要素，

but also to to make and distribute the vaccine in light speed.

即制造能力。

以及闲置制造能力。

So what we need now is an additional element which was not existing,

我们必须具有

is manufacturing capacity.

在 6 个月内，生产 120 亿剂疫苗的能力，

And idle manufacturing capacity.

We must be bringing us into a position

如果把追加疫苗也考虑进来的话。

that we can produce 12 billion doses of vaccine,

技术上，这是有可能的。

所以，如果各国政府和国际组织

if you consider prime boost, within less than six months.

对提高制造力和维持闲置生产力 进行投资的话，

And this is technically possible.

So this can be done if governments

这是可以做到的。

and international organizations invest into manufacturing capacity,

此外，还需要有一个 标准的时间限度和响应流程

invest into keeping this idle capacity,

以提高反应速度。

and also come up with a standard time span and process

所以，原则上，

我们甚至可以设法在 不到 8 个月的时间内，

完成疫苗研制，并开始疫苗分发。

to enable even faster response.

So we in principle,

克·安：就利用 mRNA 治疗 癌症和其他疾病的前景而言

we might be able to manage to come up with a vaccine

过去一年中发生的事情，

and start distribution in even less than eight months.

CA: What does what's happened in this last year tell you now

对你们有什么启发吗？

其发展方向是什么？

about the prospects for using mRNA to treat cancer

乌·萨：我们现在有了 一个经过审批的技术，

and indeed other diseases?

和一个首次获批的产品。

Where is this heading?

针对冠状病毒而研发出的 mRNA 疫苗展示了

UŞ: What we have now is now an approved technology

mRNA 的威力，

and a first approved product.

也显示了这个方法的安全性。

The development of the coronavirus mRNA vaccine shows the power

这还显示了

of the mRNA

它为新技术和新的治疗方法

and it shows also the safety of this approach.

打开了一扇大门。

And it shows

that it opens up a door for new technology

我们目前用于癌症治疗的 mRNA 分子

and for new type of treatments.

已有 10 多种产品 正处在临床研发中。

And the mRNA molecules

这些分子种类多样， 可以针对不同的癌症类型。

that we are currently using for cancer,

我们非常有信心，

we have more than 10 products now in clinical development,

目前在传染病疫苗上取得的成功

are diverse against different types of cancer.

可以在癌症免疫疗法中 继续取得成功。

We are very confident that the success that we have generated now

克·安：有些人听到这个

也许会说，这不过是 另一种即将上市的药物罢了。

for our infectious disease vaccines

can be continued with our cancer immunotherapies.

但我想，就你谈到的思维模式而言，

CA: Some people may hear this

我们应该把这看作是 一种更具革命性的疗法。

and say this is just another type of drug that's coming along.

典型的传统药物治疗 改变的是化学环境，

But I think on the mental model you're talking about,

we should think about it as much more revolutionary than that,

也就是全身的背景环境。

that typically a drug, a traditional drug, kind of changes the chemical environment,

但是……

如果你理解了 mRNA 的语言，

the background of an entire area of the body.

就可以进行更加具体精准的治疗。

But your --

这么想是否合理？

If you understand the language of mRNA,

厄·图：确实是这样。

you can do something much more specific and precise.

这可以是生物制药领域里的

Is that something like a fair way to think about it?

下一场革命。

ÖT: Yes, indeed.

乌·萨：归根结底， 疾病是一种问题状态，

It could be the next revolution

在这种状态下， 细胞间的交流受到了干扰。

in the biopharm landscape.

UŞ: At the end of the day, disease is a situation

比如说，自身免疫系统疾病是

where the communication between cells is disturbed.

一种免疫细胞攻击正常细胞的疾病。

So, for example, autoimmune disease is a disease condition

的确，我们可以设计出 各种信使 RNA 疗法，

where immune cells attack normal cells.

这些疗法可以 教会免疫系统停止攻击，

And indeed, we could engineer messenger RNA therapies

而不必抑制整个免疫系统的功能，

只要与那些正在进攻的免疫细胞 取得交流，就能做到这一点。

which could teach the immune system to stop to do that,

我们的疗法可以 非常精准，更有针对性。

without inhibiting the whole immune system,

by just communicating with the immune cells which are attacking.

克·安：BioNTech 公司在过去 几年里取得了成功，

We could be precise and more specific.

公司价值飙升，

正是因为有了这些惊人业绩。

CA: The success of BioNTech over the last couple of years,

这让你们变得极其富有，

I think the value of the company has rocketed

我想，你们现在都是亿万富翁了。

你们是如何对待这件事的？

because of the amazingness of what's happened.

有时，钱太多也会出问题。

I mean, it's made you both extremely wealthy,

I think you're both billionaires now.

这是否是一件令人分心的事？

How have you been able to respond to that?

厄·图：对于一家

Sometimes so much money brings its own problems with it.

把创新视为其核心使命的公司来说，

Is that proving a distraction?

钱太多从来都不是一个问题，

ÖT: For a company

which sees innovation as its core mission,

因为创新就意味着你必须进行投资。

too much money is never a problem.

否则，我们就只能有两种产品，

Because innovation really means that you have to invest.

或者只能逐渐改进

那些有着极高医疗需求的解决方案。

Otherwise, we will only have two type of products

乌·萨：这的确给了我们 一个改造公司的机会。

or incremental improvement

for solutions of high medical need.

当我们刚起步的时候——

UŞ: It really gives us the chance to transform our company.

与我们在 2020 年初的状况相比较

So we were when we started --

我们当时有几个候选产品 正在临床试验中，

When we compare ourselves with the situation we had

但是公司每年，或每两年， 就需要有资金投入。

at the beginning of 2020,

we had a number of product candidates in clinical testing,

现在的状态让我们可以 真正着手实现公司的全部愿景。

but the company required funding every year or every second year.

创建 BioNTech 的初衷是

只要有高度的医疗需求 尚未得到满足，

Now we have a situation to really address the full vision of the company.

我们就可以为其提供 全新的治疗方案。

We started BioNTech

with the idea really to provide novel treatments

我们现在有能力以更大更广的 规模来实现这一点,

wherever there is a high unmet medical need.

而且可以更迅速地 把我们的创新提供给患者。

And we now can do that in a much larger and broader scale,

克·安：你们两位都来自 德国的土耳其移民家庭。

and bring our innovations faster to patients.

移民在许多国家，包括德国在内， 都经历过艰难时期。

CA: You are both from families who immigrated from Turkey to Germany.

但是，我认为，

你们帮助改变了德国以及其他各地

Immigrants have faced hard times in many countries, including Germany.

关于移民问题的争论，

这是因为你们取得了卓越成就，

And yet you, I think,

在德国创建了一家领先世界的公司。

have helped transform the debate about immigration,

in Germany and elsewhere,

just by the extraordinary success that you've achieved

你们是否为自己在这个问题上 可能产生的影响而高兴呢？

creating this world-leading company in Germany.

乌·萨：这个有些令人吃惊，

因为我们从事科学研究的方式，

Do you take joy for the impact you may have had on this issue?

以及识别人们是否能够有效地 与团队一起工作的方式，

UŞ: It is somehow surprising

because the way how we do science,

不是看那个人从哪里来，

and how we recognize how people work effectively in teams together

而是看这个人可以贡献些什么。

所以在我们的公司里， 有着来自 60 多个国家的雇员。

is not to us from where the person is coming,

but what the person can contribute.

我们是一个国际化的科学家小组，

So in our company, we have employees from more than 60 countries.

就跟其他研究机构一样。

So we are an international group of scientists,

我们必认识到全球化的确有助于

as any other research institution.

把人员、科学家或其他 工程设计人员聚到一起，

So we have to recognize that globalization really helps

让他们能够一同工作，

to bring people, scientists or other engineers into one place,

取得卓越的成就。

对我们来说，把这事看得很特别， 是有些令人惊讶的。

allowing to work together

and to come with extraordinary results.

这不过是出色的科学研究 应有的运作方式。

For us, this is somehow surprising that this is seen as special.

克·安：你们的成就非同凡响， 而且振奋人心，

追踪你们未来几年的进展 将会非常令人激动。

It is just the way how excellent research and science work.

非常感谢。谢谢。

CA: Well, it's extraordinary and inspiring what you've achieved,

and it'll be very exciting to track progress over the coming years.

Thank you so much. Thank you.