Uğur Şahin and Özlem Türeci: Meet the scientist couple driving an mRNA vaccine revolution | TED

譯者: Regina Chu 審譯者: Yi-Ping Cho (Marssi)

Chris Anderson: Dr. Şahin and Dr. Türeci, welcome.

克里斯·安德森： 吳沙忻博士，圖雷西博士，

Such a treat to speak with you.

歡迎，非常榮幸能與你們對談。

Özlem Türeci: Thank you very much, Chris.

圖：非常謝謝你，克里斯。 很榮幸能參與。

It's a pleasure to be here.

CA: So tell me, as you think back over the last 18 months,

克：回想過去十八個月，

what words pop to mind for you?

你的腦中最先浮現的是什麼詞句？

ÖT: Well, one word which comes to mind is breathless.

圖：腦中最先浮現的是屏息以待。

It was indeed a breathless 16, 17 months for us.

對我們來說，這真的是 屏息以待的十六、十七個月。

When we started in January last year,

去年一月，我們開始時，

it was already at that time clear to us that we were already in a pandemic.

當時我們就很清楚

我們已經在疫情當中了。

What was not known was how fast this pandemic would evolve

那時不知道的，

是疫情會演化得這麼快，

and whether we would have the time in the first place

以及我們到底能不能

to have a vaccine ready soon enough in due time.

把疫苗準備好，

且要夠快，夠即時。

And understanding this,

因為了解這一點，

it meant for us that there was not even one day to lose.

這對我們來說意味著

我們連一天都不能損失。

And this was the mindset of the entire team

整個團隊都抱持這種心態，

here in Mainz and at BioNTech

不論是在美茵茲這裡， 還是在 BioNTech 皆是如此。

and later on also of our partners which were involved,

還有後續參與的合作夥伴，

Pfizer and others,

輝瑞及其他夥伴，

to keep going and be fast.

都想持續邁進且動作要快。

CA: I mean, it's so extraordinary that the ideas and the work in your minds

克：這真的很不簡單， 就是你們的想法及工作

have now impacted hundreds of millions,

現在影響了數億人，

perhaps billions of people.

甚至數十億人。

That must feel overwhelming.

這感覺一定很受寵若驚。

And yet, I know at the same time,

然而，同時我也知道，

you don't believe in this notion of a flash-in-the-pan ideas.

這不是靈光閃現。

Steven Johnson, the author, in his book "Where [Good] Ideas Come From,"

作家史蒂文·強森在他的書 《創意從何而來》中

speaks of the slow hunch,

談到緩慢的預感，就是最佳的點子 要花很多年才能產生。

that the best ideas happen over many years.

And I know that you believe that is true in your case.

我知道你們也如此認為。

I'd like us to go back a couple of decades to -- tell us how this began.

我想倒帶數十年，

請你們談談這是如何開始的。

How did you meet?

你們怎麼認識的？

ÖT: We met on an oncohematology ward,

圖：我們在血液腫瘤科病房認識，

Uğur being a young physician,

沙忻當時是年輕的醫師，

and I was still in medical school training on ward.

我還在讀醫學院，

在病房接受訓練。

Which means we met in one of the worlds

也就是說，讓我們相遇的世界，

which became important to us,

後來變成對我們很重要的世界，

the world of patient care,

就是照護病人的世界，

of treating oncohematology patients.

治療血液腫瘤科的病人。

And we soon found out

我們很快就發現，

that there was a second world which we liked,

還有一個我們都喜愛的世界，

namely the world of science.

也就是科學的世界。

We were haunted by the same dilemma,

我們被同樣的窘境所困擾，

namely that whereas there was not much we could offer our cancer patients,

也就是，雖然，

我們能提供給癌症病人的不多，

there were so many potential technologies we encountered in the lab

但在實驗室中，

我們發現好多有潛力的技術，

which could address this.

可能可以用來處理這個問題。

So one of our shared visions

所以，我們共同的遠景之一，

was to bridge this dilemma

是要橋接這種兩難，

by working on bringing science and technology fast.

要把科學與技術

快速連結。

And that's an important word here.

在此，快速這個詞很重要。

Fast to the patient's bedside to address high medical need.

快速將解方帶到病人的床邊，

以滿足高度的醫療需求。

CA: So I think the first company you founded nearly 20 years ago

克：所以你們在近二十年前 創立的第一間公司

was to use the power of the human immune system to tackle cancer.

是在利用人類免疫系統的力量

來對付癌症。

Uğur Şahin: We were always interested in using the patient's immune system

吳：我們一直都很想

用病人的免疫系統

to fight cancer and other type of diseases.

來對抗癌症和其他疾病。

As immunologists, we knew how powerful the human immune system is.

身為免疫學家，

我們知道人類的免疫系統有多強大。

But it was also clear that the human immune system,

但，我們也很清楚，

人類免疫系統

in the case of cancer,

在遇到癌症時，

did not fight cancer cells.

不會對抗癌細胞。

It could fight it, but it didn't.

它可以對抗，但卻沒有。

And for that, we wanted to develop immunotherapies.

因此，

我們想要發展免疫治療。

That means treatments that use the power of the immune system

也就是，

用免疫系統的力量來做治療，

and redirect the power of the immune system to cancer cells.

將免疫系統的力量重新導向癌細胞。

It was clear that in the university setting,

很明顯，在大學的環境中，

we could not continue to develop monoclonal antibodies

我們無法繼續發展單株抗體，

because the cost for development of monoclonal antibodies

因為發展單株抗體的成本，

before you can start a clinical trial,

在還沒有開始臨床實驗之前

was in the range of 20, 30 million euros,

就已經要花到兩、三千萬歐元，

and therefore we decided to start a company to get the funding.

因此我們決定創立 一間公司來取得資金。

CA: Now, soon after you started this company,

克：你們成立這間公司後 沒多久，就決定結婚了。

you decided to get married.

Tell me about your wedding day.

能否談談你們的結婚日。

ÖT: Day was well planned, a quick wedding.

圖：那天的規劃很好，

快速的婚禮。

And thereafter we went back to the laboratory

結束後我們就回到實驗室，

and our guests at our wedding, that was basically our team,

婚禮的賓客基本上都是我們的團隊，

our research team.

我們的研究團隊。

So no time to lose, Chris.

分秒必爭，克里斯。 克：（笑）

CA: (Laughs)

That was a pretty special honeymoon.

挺特別的蜜月。

I mean, it seems like your love for each other

你們對彼此的愛似乎 緊繫著你們對這份工作的愛，

is very much bound up in your love for this work

and your sense of the importance of this work.

以及你們對這份工作的重視。

How would you characterize those intersecting relationships there?

你們會怎麼描述那些交錯的關係？

UŞ: We are really two scientists.

吳：我們其實就是兩個科學家。

At the end of the day, we love what we do,

到頭來，我們熱愛我們的工作，

and for us,

而且，對我們而言，我們不用

we don't differentiate between work and life balance.

去區別工作和生活的平衡。

It's for us really a privilege to be scientists,

我們覺得三生有幸能夠成為科學家，

to be able to do what we love.

能夠去做我們熱愛的事。

And therefore, we combine our normal life with our professional life.

因此，

我們把日常生活和工作生活結合。

And therefore, this is pretty normal for us.

因此，這對我們而言挺正常的。

CA: So talk to me about this extraordinary molecule RNA,

克：能否談談這個 不可思議的分子 RNA，

and how you got interested in it and how it became, as I understand it,

你們怎麼會對它產生興趣？

還有，就我的了解， 它變成你們工作的重心？

an increasing focus of your work.

And indeed, it led to the founding of BioNTech.

它也的確為 BioNTech 帶來了資金。

Talk about that.

跟我們談談這些。

UŞ: Yeah, mRNA is a natural molecule,

吳：好的，mRNA 是種天然分子，

it's one of the first molecules of life.

它是生命最早的分子之一。

It is a carrier of genetic information.

它帶著遺傳訊息。

But in contrast to DNA, it's not stable.

但和 DNA 相反，它並不穩定。

So it can be used to transfer information to human cells.

所以可以用它

傳遞訊息給人類細胞。

And the human cells can use this information to build proteins,

人類細胞

則可以利用這些訊息來創造蛋白質，

which can be used for therapeutic settings,

然後拿來治療，

for example, to make a protein which is a vaccine,

比如，

製造當作疫苗用的蛋白質，

or to make a protein which is an antibody,

或製造當作抗體用的蛋白質，

or to make a protein which is another type of drug.

或製造當作其他藥物用的蛋白質。

And we were fascinated by this molecule class,

我們對這類分子十分著迷，

because it was very clear

因為，

我們非常清楚，

that mRNA can be produced pretty fast, within a few days.

製造 mRNA 的速度很快，

只需要幾天。

And we were, as MDs,

而我們身為醫師，

we were particularly interested to develop personalized medicines.

我們對於開發個人化的藥物

特別感興趣。

That means a treatment and immunotherapy

意思就是針對個別癌症病人

設計的療程和免疫治療，

specifically designed for a cancer patient,

because one of the key challenges in cancer treatment,

因為癌症治療的難題挑戰之一，

is that every patient has a different tumor.

就是每位病人的腫瘤都不一樣。

If you compare two tumors of two patients

如果把兩位得到同樣腫瘤的病人

with the same type of tumor,

拿來做比較，

the similarity of the tumors is less than three percent

兩人腫瘤的相似性不到 3%，

and 97 percent is really unique.

其餘 97% 都非常獨特。

And today, it's still not possible

現今，仍然沒有辦法

to address the uniqueness of the tumor of a patient.

處理病患腫瘤的獨特性。

And therefore,

因此，我們在尋找能夠用在

we were seeking for a technology which could be used for immunotherapy

免疫治療上的技術，

and which could be used to develop a treatment

能夠在最短的時間內

within the shortest possible time.

開發出治療方法。

The idea to get the genetic sequence of the tumor

我們的想法是要取得腫瘤的基因序列，

and then make a vaccine which is personalized,

並製造出個人化的疫苗，

within a few weeks.

且在幾週內就完成製造。

CA: Is it fair to say

克：是不是可以說，

that almost all of the significant things that happen to us biologically

我們身上發生的各種重要 生物現象，幾乎都是

are actions done by proteins,

蛋白質的作為？

and that it's mRNA that actually makes those proteins?

而且那些蛋白質是由 mRNA 製造的嗎？

If you can understand the language of mRNA,

如果你能了解 mRNA 的語言，

you can get involved in pretty much everything of significance

你就可以介入幾乎所有

對人類健康很重要的因素？

to the well-being of a human being.

ÖT: Exactly.

圖：沒錯。所以，原則上，

So in principle,

the information instructions are in the DNA.

訊息的指令位在 DNA 裡面。

These have to be translated into protein

它們必須要被轉譯為蛋白質，

because proteins are the actors which keep our cells alive

因為蛋白質的角色

就是維持細胞的生命

and our organism functional.

並確保生物組織能運作。

And the way how to translate

至於要如何轉譯

what is instructed by DNA

DNA 的指令，

in a fashion that it is well-timed

且要能即時，

and happens at the right places, into protein,

要在對的地方發生，進入蛋白質，

there is messenger RNA.

那就是 mRNA（信使核糖核酸），

Messenger RNA sort of instructs when

它會指示在什麼時候

and how much of which protein has to be built

要製造多少量的哪一種蛋白質，

in order to ensure the activity of our body.

才能確保我們的身體能正常活動。

CA: So you can almost think of DNA

克：所以可以把 DNA 想成是

as the sort of The Oxford English Dictionary of Language.

語言的牛津字典。

It sort of sits there as the reference point.

它就在那裡當參考書。

But for the actual living work,

但在實際生活上， 那些活的語言工作，

the living work of language out there in the world instructing things,

要下指令的事，就由 mRNA 來做。

that is done by mRNA.

UŞ: Yeah, absolutely, it is possible.

沙：的確，是有可能的。

So the human cells,

人類細胞，

exactly, DNA is like a library.

DNA 就像是圖書館。

If you have the platform for the messenger RNA therapy,

如果有一個 mRNA 治療的平台，

you can deliver any type of message

你就可以傳遞任何類型的訊息，

and the body cells ensure that the message is translated

身體細胞會確保那些訊息

被轉譯成正確的蛋白質。

into the right protein.

ÖT: A high advantage of mRNA is that it is so versatile.

圖：mRNA 的一大優勢在於

它的功能非常多。

You can deliver all sorts of messages, as Uğur has called them.

你可以像沙忻說的那樣 傳遞各種訊息。

On the one hand, you can deliver the blueprint for the protein

一方面，你可以傳遞蛋白質的藍圖，

which you want to be produced in this cell.

即你想要在這個細胞中 製造什麼蛋白質。

But you can, with the same molecule,

但是同樣用這個分子，

also design into the mRNA

你也可以將 mRNA 設計成

instructions how this protein should be built,

指示這種蛋白質應如何製造，

instructions to the protein factories of the cell.

指示細胞中的蛋白質工廠。

So you can define

所以你可以定義

whether you want this protein to be built in high amounts

你是否想要大量生產這種蛋白質

or for a long duration,

或是要長期製造，

how the pharmacokinetics of this protein should be in the cell.

這種蛋白質在細胞中 該有怎樣的藥物動力學。

CA: So talk about January of last year

克：談談去年一月，

when you first heard about this new virus that was spreading.

當你第一次聽到 這種新病毒在傳播的情況。

UŞ: So in the end of January,

吳：去年一月底，

we read a paper published about this outbreak in Wuhan,

我們讀到一篇論文在談武漢疫情爆發，

and realized that this new outbreak

意識到這場新爆發的疫情，

has all features to become a global pandemic,

具備會成為全球大流行的所有特點，

and we were concerned that our life will change,

我們很擔憂我們的生活會起變化，

that this outbreak could change the fate of mankind.

這場疫情可能會改變人類的命運。

And we knew that we have this messenger RNA technology,

那時我們知道 我們有這種 mRNA 科技，

which was actually developed for personalized cancer therapy.

實際用於開發個人化的癌症治療。

But the idea of personalized cancer therapy

但是個人化的癌症療法

is to get the genetic information of the patient

是得到病人的遺傳資訊，

and then make a vaccine as fast as possible.

然後在最短的時間內製造出疫苗。

And we had now the same situation.

我們現在有同樣的情況。

It was not a personalized vaccine,

不是個人化的疫苗，

but it was a genetic information of the virus,

而是用病毒的遺傳資訊，

which was released two weeks earlier.

這個資訊那之前兩週已經公布了。

And so this genetic information of this virus was available,

所以這種病毒的遺傳資訊已經到手，

and our task was to make a vaccine as fast as possible.

我們的任務就是盡快把疫苗做出來。

And the challenge at that time point was,

當時的挑戰是

there was almost nothing known about this virus.

我們對此種病毒一無所知。

It was a completely new virus.

這是種全新的病毒。

We had some assumptions

我們有一些假設，

which target which molecule encoded by the virus

猜想這個病毒編碼的那種分子

could be the right target.

可能是正確的目標。

That means the molecule which can be used

這也意味著這個分子可以拿來

to precisely engineer an immune attack.

精確設計免疫攻擊。

This is the spike protein.

這是棘蛋白。

It is on the surface of the virus.

存在於病毒的表面上。

And there's not only one copy of the spike protein on the virus,

病毒上的棘蛋白不只一個，

but multiple in the range of 20, 25, 30 spike proteins.

而是落在 20、25、30 個的範圍內。

And the spike protein has two functions.

棘蛋白有兩個功能。

One function is really to enable that the virus sticks to human cells.

第一個功能是讓病毒 黏附在人體細胞上。

For example, it sticks to cells in the human lung.

例如，它黏在人類的肺部細胞上。

And the second is that the spike protein acts as a key.

第二個功能是棘蛋白就像把鑰匙。

It allows the virus to enter into the cells.

它讓病毒能進入細胞內。

Our goal was to engineer an immune response.

我們的目標是設計一種免疫反應。

CA: You've got a slide showing the T-cell response to your vaccine.

克：你有一張圖顯示 T 細胞 對疫苗的反應。

How long were you into the process before you saw this

你開始之後等了多久才看到這個？

and you saw, wow, there really is a spectacular response going on here?

你看到了，哇，真的有驚人的反應？

ÖT: We saw this already in the animal models

圖：我們早就在動物上看到反應，

because they are also meant to assess the immune response.

因為它們也旨在評估免疫反應。

And what is shown on this slide

這張圖上顯示

is on the left side, a lymph node

左邊的淋巴結

from a setting where there was no RNA treatment or RNA vaccination.

處在沒有 RNA 治療 或 RNA 疫苗的環境下，

And on the right side, a lymph node of a treated organism,

右邊的則是受過治療的 某種生物的淋巴結，

in this case, an animal.

這個例子是一隻動物。

And the localization matters.

定位也很重要。

And we have constructed our RNA nanoparticles,

我們建構了 RNA 奈米粒子，

with encapsulation into lipids

以脂質包囊，

such that the mRNA is carried into lymph nodes,

讓 mRNA 被帶入淋巴結，

not just anywhere, it's carried into lymph nodes

不是到處亂跑，而是被帶入淋巴結，

and in the lymph nodes

在淋巴結，

it reaches a very special cell type, which is called dendritic cells,

它可接觸到一種非常特別的細胞， 稱為樹突狀細胞，

and these cells are coaches of the immune system.

這些細胞可以指導免疫系統。

So they are the generals which call all the different special forces

所以它們就是將領， 召喚各種特種部隊，

and train them on the wanted poster of attacker.

訓練它們找出通緝令上的攻擊者。

And it's very important that you reach those cells.

能夠傳遞到這種細胞非常重要。

On the right side, you can see the effect of reaching those cells.

在右邊你們可以看到 傳遞到這些細胞後的效果。

You see many red dots.

你們可以看到很多紅點。

And these are T-cells which have been trained to recognize the antigen,

這些就是 T 細胞， 它們受過訓練、能辨認抗原，

the protein which mRNA has delivered,

即 mRNA 傳遞的蛋白質，

and they have expanded to a sort of army of clones, so to say.

我們還可以這麼說， 它們會擴充成一支複製人軍隊。

So all these red dots are an army

這些紅點就是一支軍隊，

which only knows one goal,

它們只有一個目標，

namely attacking this specific protein encoded by the mRNA.

就是攻擊這個由 mRNA 編碼出的特定蛋白質。

CA: So it's really stunning

克：所以這真的很驚人，

that within just a few days of your looking at this sequence

在你們看到這個病原體的 基因序列後幾天內，

of the most dangerous pathogen to hit humanity in 100 years, I guess,

我猜這百年內打擊人類 最危險的病原體，

that you were able to come up with these these candidate vaccines.

就能找出這幾種候選疫苗。

And I guess over the course of the next weeks and months,

我猜在接下來幾週及幾個月內，

you had growing confidence that, wow, this was going to work.

你愈來愈有信心，說哇，這個會有用。

It wasn't until the results of the human trials came out,

直到人體試驗結果出爐，

I guess in November of last year,

我猜是去年十一月，

that you really knew.

你才真的確知。

Tell us about that moment.

談談那個瞬間。

ÖT: It was a Sunday when we were waiting for these results,

圖：那是個星期日，我們都在等結果。

which are assessed in such trials by an independent committee

此類試驗通常都由一個 獨立委員會評估。

and Uğur said, "So let's see how the data will look like."

沙忻說：「我們來看看 數據會是什麼樣子。」

It was not clear whether it would be a thumbs up or down.

當時還不清楚會是通過還是否決。

And we were very relieved.

我們都大大鬆了一口氣。

And I felt blessed to hear that the vaccine was efficacious

我很欣喜聽到疫苗是有效的，

and it was highly efficacious, over 90 percent.

而且是非常有效，超過 90% 。

CA: And that more than 90 percent almost disguises the full extent,

克：而且那個「超過 90% 」 幾乎涵蓋了所有範圍，

because that's just against any kind of level of infection of COVID.

因為可以保護任何程度的新冠感染。

Severe infection and fatalities were almost completely protected against,

幾乎可以完全保護 不受嚴重感染和死亡，

I think.

我想。

And it must have been an ecstatic moment for you.

你當時一定欣喜若狂。

Certainly was for so many people around the world.

對世界各地的許多人而言的確如此。

UŞ: Yes, absolutely.

吳：是，絕對是。

So this was a Sunday evening,

那是星期天晚上，

and there were a handful of people

有一小搓人

knowing that an effective vaccine is existing against this global pandemic.

知道有一種有效的疫苗存在， 可以對抗這個全球疫情。

And we were so excited and so happy

我們超興奮、超開心，

and we shared of course this information the next day.

而且我們隔天就分享了這個資訊。

CA: So based on what's happened this time around

克：所以根據這次發生的事

and the amazing acceleration,

及驚人的加速度，

compared with any other vaccine development,

跟其他疫苗的開發相比，

I mean, if we were hit by another virus,

如果我們又碰到另一種病毒，

could you picture that next time

你能想像下次

we could accelerate the time line further still if need be?

我們還能更快嗎？如果有需要？

UŞ: Yes, Chris, this is an excellent question.

吳：是的，克里斯， 這個問題問的太好了。

Actually, the world was not prepared to deal with such a pandemic.

其實，世界並沒有準備好 應對這樣的疫情。

The science and the vaccine developers reacted in an excellent fashion.

科學和疫苗開發者以極佳的方式應對，

And it is incredible and wonderful

這的確很不可思議，也很棒，

that it was possible to come up with an effective vaccine

能找出非常有效的疫苗，

while a pandemic is ongoing, in less than 12 months.

在疫情還在持續發展 不到 12 個月內。

But the challenges that we have at the moment

但是我們目前的挑戰

is that we don't have sufficient production capacity.

是沒有足夠的生產能力。

Ideally, we would be prepared the next time,

理想的情況是，我們應該會 準備好下一次，

not only to develop a vaccine in light speed,

不但要以光速發展疫苗，

but also to to make and distribute the vaccine in light speed.

還要以光速製造及分配疫苗。

So what we need now is an additional element which was not existing,

所以我們現在需要的 是之前沒有的另一個元素，

is manufacturing capacity.

就是製造能力。

And idle manufacturing capacity.

及閒置產能。

We must be bringing us into a position

我們必須讓自己達到一個情況，

that we can produce 12 billion doses of vaccine,

能生產 120 億劑疫苗，

if you consider prime boost, within less than six months.

如果你想在短短六個月內 做初免加強接種方案。

And this is technically possible.

這在技術上是可行的。

So this can be done if governments

要做到這點，政府

and international organizations invest into manufacturing capacity,

及國際組織要投資生產能力，

invest into keeping this idle capacity,

投資閒置產能，

and also come up with a standard time span and process

也要提出標準時限及過程，

to enable even faster response.

才能夠更快地應對。

So we in principle,

所以原則上

we might be able to manage to come up with a vaccine

我們可能可以設法找出一種疫苗

and start distribution in even less than eight months.

並在八個月內開始分配。

CA: What does what's happened in this last year tell you now

克： 從現在看去年發生的事，

about the prospects for using mRNA to treat cancer

使用 mRNA 治療癌症

and indeed other diseases?

甚至其他疾病的前景如何？

Where is this heading?

未來的發展方向？

UŞ: What we have now is now an approved technology

吳：我們現在有已經核准的科技

and a first approved product.

以及第一個核准的產品。

The development of the coronavirus mRNA vaccine shows the power

新冠病毒 mRNA 疫苗的發展顯示出

of the mRNA

mRNA 的力量，

and it shows also the safety of this approach.

也顯示出這個方法的安全性。

And it shows

它指出了

that it opens up a door for new technology

一扇新科技

and for new type of treatments.

及新療法的門。

And the mRNA molecules

mRNA 分子

that we are currently using for cancer,

我們目前用來治療癌症的，

we have more than 10 products now in clinical development,

現在我們有超過十種產品 正在做臨床開發，

are diverse against different types of cancer.

可以對抗不同類型的癌症。

We are very confident that the success that we have generated now

我們非常有信心目前

for our infectious disease vaccines

對抗傳染病疫苗的成功經驗，

can be continued with our cancer immunotherapies.

可以持續到癌症的免疫療法。

CA: Some people may hear this

克：有些人聽到這個，

and say this is just another type of drug that's coming along.

大概會說這只不過是另一種新的藥物。

But I think on the mental model you're talking about,

但是我認為從你談到的 心智模式角度來看，

we should think about it as much more revolutionary than that,

我們應該認為這更具革命性，

that typically a drug, a traditional drug, kind of changes the chemical environment,

比普通藥物、傳統藥物更加革命性， 可以改變化學環境，

the background of an entire area of the body.

即整個人體的背景狀況。

But your --

但是你的——

If you understand the language of mRNA,

如果你了解 mRNA 的語言，

you can do something much more specific and precise.

你就可以做得更具特異性、更精準。

Is that something like a fair way to think about it?

這樣說公平嗎？

ÖT: Yes, indeed.

圖：是，確實。

It could be the next revolution

這很可能是

in the biopharm landscape.

生物製藥領域的下一場革命。

UŞ: At the end of the day, disease is a situation

吳：到頭來，疾病不過就是

where the communication between cells is disturbed.

細胞間溝通不良的情況。

So, for example, autoimmune disease is a disease condition

例如自體免疫疾病就是

where immune cells attack normal cells.

免疫細胞攻擊正常細胞的狀況。

And indeed, we could engineer messenger RNA therapies

確實，我們可以編碼信使 RNA 療法，

which could teach the immune system to stop to do that,

教免疫系統停止這樣做，

without inhibiting the whole immune system,

不需要抑制整個免疫系統，

by just communicating with the immune cells which are attacking.

只要直接傳達給攻擊的免疫細胞就好。

We could be precise and more specific.

我們可以更精確及更具特異性。

CA: The success of BioNTech over the last couple of years,

克：生技公司 BioNTech 近幾年來的成功，

I think the value of the company has rocketed

我想公司的價值飛漲，

because of the amazingness of what's happened.

因為發生的這一切太神奇了。

I mean, it's made you both extremely wealthy,

這讓你們兩位非常富有，

I think you're both billionaires now.

我想你們兩位現在都是億萬富翁了。

How have you been able to respond to that?

你們對此有何反應？

Sometimes so much money brings its own problems with it.

有時候太多錢本身也會帶來問題。

Is that proving a distraction?

這證明會讓人分心嗎？

ÖT: For a company

圖：對一家

which sees innovation as its core mission,

視創新為核心使命的公司而言，

too much money is never a problem.

錢太多永遠不是問題。

Because innovation really means that you have to invest.

因為創新真正的意思就是投資。

Otherwise, we will only have two type of products

不然我們將只有兩種產品，

or incremental improvement

或只能漸進式改良

for solutions of high medical need.

高醫療需求的解方。

UŞ: It really gives us the chance to transform our company.

吳：它真的讓我們有機會 改造我們的公司。

So we were when we started --

我們剛開始的時候——

When we compare ourselves with the situation we had

如果我們跟

2020 初的景況比較，

at the beginning of 2020,

we had a number of product candidates in clinical testing,

我們有幾個臨床試驗的候選產品，

but the company required funding every year or every second year.

但是公司每年或每隔一年都要找錢。

Now we have a situation to really address the full vision of the company.

現在我們終於 能說出公司的完整願景。

We started BioNTech

我們開創 BioNTech

with the idea really to provide novel treatments

抱持的想法就是提供新治療方法

wherever there is a high unmet medical need.

給還未滿足的高醫療需求。

And we now can do that in a much larger and broader scale,

現在我們可以用更大 更廣的規模來做，

and bring our innovations faster to patients.

更快地將我們的創新帶給病患。

CA: You are both from families who immigrated from Turkey to Germany.

克：你們兩位都來自從土耳其 移民到德國的移民家庭。

Immigrants have faced hard times in many countries, including Germany.

移民的處境在許多國家都很艱難， 德國也包括在內。

And yet you, I think,

然而我想，你們

have helped transform the debate about immigration,

幫助轉變對移民的爭論，

in Germany and elsewhere,

無論在德國及其他地方，

just by the extraordinary success that you've achieved

因為你們達到的非凡成就，

creating this world-leading company in Germany.

在德國創立領導世界的公司。

Do you take joy for the impact you may have had on this issue?

也許你對這個議題已經產生衝擊， 你為此感到高興嗎？

UŞ: It is somehow surprising

吳：這有點令人驚訝，

because the way how we do science,

因為我們做科學的方法，

and how we recognize how people work effectively in teams together

以及我們如何認定人們在團隊內 是否能合作無間的方法，

is not to us from where the person is coming,

不是你從哪裡來，

but what the person can contribute.

而是這個人能貢獻什麼。

So in our company, we have employees from more than 60 countries.

所以在我們的公司， 我們的員工從六十多個國家來。

So we are an international group of scientists,

我們是一群來自世界各地的科學家，

as any other research institution.

就像任何其他研究單位一樣。

So we have to recognize that globalization really helps

所以我們必須明瞭全球化的確有助於

to bring people, scientists or other engineers into one place,

將人、科學家或其他工程師 帶到一個地方，

allowing to work together

讓他們能一起工作

and to come with extraordinary results.

並產生非凡的結果。

For us, this is somehow surprising that this is seen as special.

我們很驚訝這被視為特殊情況。

It is just the way how excellent research and science work.

這其實就是卓越的研究 及科學的運作方式。

CA: Well, it's extraordinary and inspiring what you've achieved,

克：你們的成就極非凡、極激勵人心，

and it'll be very exciting to track progress over the coming years.

非常興奮能繼續追蹤未來幾年的進展。

Thank you so much. Thank you.

真的很感謝。謝謝。