Why monkeys (and humans) are wired for fairness | Sarah Brosnan

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Ivana Korom

My first year in graduate school, studying cooperation in monkeys,

Na prvoj godini specijalističkih studija, izučavajući saradnju kod majmuna,

I spent a lot of time outside,

provela sam monogo vremena napolju,

just watching our groups of capuchin monkeys interact.

prosto posmatrajući naše grupe majmuna kapucina kako interaguju.

One afternoon, I was out back feeding peanuts to one of our groups,

Jednog popodneva sam bila u dvorištu iza dajući kikiriki jednoj od grupa,

which required distracting one of our males, Ozzie,

što je zahtevalo odvlačenje pažnje jednom od mužjaka, Oziju,

enough so that the other monkeys could get some.

dovoljno da ostali majmuni dobiju svoj deo.

Ozzie loved peanuts,

Ozi je voleo kikiriki

and he always tried to do anything he could to grab some.

i uvek je pokušavao da uradi sve što može da zgrabi nekoliko.

On that day, however,

Tog dana, pak,

he began trying to bring other things from his enclosure to me

počeo je da mi donosi druge stvari iz njegovog obora

and trade them with me in order to get a peanut.

i da trguje sa mnom kako bi dobio kikiriki.

Now, capuchins are smart, so this wasn't necessarily a surprise.

Sad, kapucini su pametni, pa ovo nije nužno bilo iznenađenje.

But what was a surprise

Međutim, iznenađujuće je bilo

was that some of the things that he was bringing me,

to što sam za neke stvari koje mi je donosio

I was pretty sure he liked better than peanuts.

bila prilično sigurna da voli više od kikirikija.

First, he brought me a piece of monkey chow,

Prvo mi je doneo parče hrane za majmune,

which is like dried dog food --

koja liči na suvu hranu za pse -

it was even made by Purina --

čak je i proizvodi Purina -

and for a monkey, is about as worthless as it gets.

i ona je za majmune praktično bezvredna.

Of course, I didn't give him a peanut for that.

Naravno da mu nisam dala kikiriki za to.

But he kept trying,

Međutim, nastavio je da se trudi

and eventually, he brought me a quarter of an orange

i na kraju mi je doneo četvrtinu pomorandže

and tried to trade it with me for a peanut.

i pokušao je da se trampi sa mnom za kikiriki.

Now, oranges are a valuable monkey commodity,

Sad, pomorandže su vredna namirnica za majmune,

so this trade seemed, shall I say, a little bit nuts?

pa se ova razmena činila, da ne kažem, malčice majmunskom.

Now you may be wondering how we know what monkeys prefer.

Možda se pitate kako znamo šta se majmunima više sviđa.

Well, we ask them,

Pa, pitamo ih

by giving them a choice between two foods

tako što im damo izbor između dve hrane

and seeing which one they pick.

i posmatramo koju će odabrati.

Generally speaking, their preferences are a lot like ours:

Uopšteno govoreći, njihov ukus je sličan našem:

the sweeter it is, the more they like it.

što je nešto slađe, to im se više sviđa.

So, much like humans prefer cupcakes to kale,

Dakle, kao što se ljudima više sviđaju mafini od kelja,

monkeys prefer fruits, like oranges or grapes,

tako i majmuni više vole voće, poput pomorandži i grožđa

to vegetables like cucumbers,

od povrća poput krastavaca,

and all of this to monkey chow.

a sve to im je draže od hrane za majmune.

And peanuts are not bad.

A kikiriki nije loš.

However, they definitely don't prefer them to a chunk of orange.

Međutim, definitivno im nije draži od parčeta pomorandže.

So when Ozzie tried to trade a quarter of an orange for a peanut,

Pa, kad je Ozi pokušao da trampi četvrtinu pomorandže za kikiriki

it was a surprise,

radilo se o iznenađenju,

and I began to wonder if he suddenly wanted that peanut

a ja sam počela da se pitam da li je on iznenada želeo kikiriki

because everybody else in his group was getting one.

jer su svi ostali u njegovoj grupi dobili po jedan.

In case you're wondering, I did give Ozzie his peanut.

Ukoliko se pitate, dala sam Oziju njegov kikiriki.

But then I went straight to my graduate adviser,

Međutim, potom sam odmah otišla pravo kod mog mentora

Frans de Waal,

Fransa de Vala,

and we began to design a study

i počeli smo da osmišljavamo istraživanje

to see how the monkeys would respond

da vidimo kako će majmuni da reaguju

when somebody else in their group got a better reward than they did

kada neko drugi iz njihove grupe dobije bolju nagradu od njih

for doing the same work.

za isti posao.

It was a very simple study.

Radilo se o jednostavnom istraživanju.

We took two monkeys from the same group

Uzeli smo dva majmuna iz iste grupe

and had them sit side by side,

i smestili ih jednog pored drugog

and they would do a task,

i oni su obavljali zadatak

which was trading a token with me,

u kom su menjali žetone sa mnom,

and if they did so successfully,

a ukoliko to uspešno obave,

they got a reward.

dobiju nagradu.

The catch was that one monkey always got a piece of cucumber,

Kvaka je bila u tome da jedan majmun uvek dobije parče krastavca,

and the other monkey sometimes got a piece of cucumber,

a drugi majmun nekad dobije parče krastavca,

but sometimes got a grape.

a nekad dobije zrno grožđa.

And if you'll recall,

A ako se sećate,

grapes are much preferred to cucumbers

grožđe je daleko vrednije od krastavaca

on the capuchin monkey hierarchy.

u hijerarhiji majmuna kapucin.

These are two of my capuchin monkeys.

Ovo su moja dva majmuna kapucin.

Winter, on the right, is trading for a grape,

Vinter, zdesna, trampi se za grožđe,

and Lance, on the left, is trading for a cucumber.

a Lens, sleva, trampi se za krastavac.

You can see that she -- and yes, Lance is actually a female --

Vidite da je ona - i, da, Lens je zapravo ženka -

is at first perfectly happy with her cucumber,

u početku savršeno zadovoljna svojim krastavcem,

until she sees Winter trading for a grape.

dok ne vidi da se Vinter trampi za grožđe.

Suddenly, Lance is very enthusiastic about trading.

Iznenada, Lens je veoma uzbuđena zbog trgovine.

She gets her cucumber, takes a bite and then --

Dobija svoj krastavac, zagriza i potom -

throws it right back out again.

baca ga nazad nama.

Meanwhile, Winter trades again and gets another grape

U međuvremenu, Vinter se ponovo trampi i dobija još jedno zrno grožđa

and has Lance's undivided attention while she eats it.

i ima Lensinu potpunu pažnju dok ga jede.

This time,

Ovaj put,

Lance is not so enthusiastic about trading.

Lens nije toliko uzbuđena zbog trgovine.

But eventually, she does so.

Međutim, na kraju ipak pristaje.

But when she gets the cucumber this time around,

No kada ovaj put dobije krastavac,

she doesn't even take a bite

čak ni ne zagriza

before she throws it back out again.

pre nego što ga baci nazad nama.

Apparently, Lance only wants a cucumber

Očito da Lens jedino želi krastavac,

when she hasn't just watched Winter eat a grape.

dok ne vidi kako Vinter jede grožđe.

And Lance was not alone in this.

A Lens nije bila jedinstven slučaj.

All of my capuchins were perfectly happy with their cucumbers

Svi moji kapucini su bili savršeno srećni sa svojim krastavcima

as long as the other monkeys were getting cucumbers too.

dokle god su i ostali majmuni dobijali krastavce.

But they often weren't so happy with their cucumbers

Međutim, često nisu bili toliko srećni sa svojim krastavcima

when other monkeys were getting a grape.

kada bi drugi majmuni dobili grožđe.

The obvious question is why?

Očigledno pitanje je zašto?

If they liked those cucumbers before,

Ako su im se pre sviđali krastavci,

what changed?

šta se promenilo?

Now, I'm a scientist,

Sad, ja sam naučnica,

and scientists are famously shy about reading too much into our studies,

i mi smo čuveni po uzdržanosti povodom prevelikog učitavanja u naša istraživanja,

especially when it comes to what other animals

naročito kada se radi o tome šta druge životinje

are thinking or feeling,

misle ili osećaju

because we can't ask them.

jer ne možemo da ih pitamo.

But still, what I was seeing in my monkeys

Pa ipak, ono što sam gledala kod mojih majmuna

looked an awful lot like what we humans would call a sense of fairness.

veoma je ličilo na ono što mi ljudi nazivamo osećajem pravičnosti.

After all,

Naposletku,

the difference in that cucumber was that it came after Winter got a grape,

razlika kod tog krastavca je što je usledio nakon što je Vinter dobila grožđe,

rather than before.

a ne pre.

We humans are obsessed with fairness.

Mi ljudi smo opsednuti pravičnošću.

I have a younger sister,

Imam mlađu sestru

and when we were little,

i kad smo bile male,

if my sister got a bigger piece of the pie than me,

ukoliko bi moja sestra dobila veće parče pite od mene,

even by a crumb,

čak i za mrvu,

I was furious.

bila sam besna.

It wasn't fair.

Nije bilo pošteno.

And the childhood me is not alone.

A moja mlađa verzija nije izuzetak.

We humans hate getting less than another so much

Mi ljudi toliko mrzimo da dobijamo manje od drugih

that one study found

da je jedno istraživanje otkrilo

that if humans were given a hypothetical choice

da kada se ljudima da hipotetički izbor

between earning 50,000 dollars a year

između toga da zarade 50 000 dolara godišnje

while others earned 25,000 dollars,

dok bi drugi zaradili 25 000 dolara,

or earning 100,000 dollars a year

ili da zarade 100 000 dolara godišnje

while others earned 250,000 dollars,

dok bi drugi zaradili 250 000 dolara,

nearly half the subjects

skoro polovini ispitanika

prefer to earn 50,000 dollars a year less money

je bilo draže da zarade 50 000 dolara godišnje manje novca

to avoid earning relatively less than someone else.

kako bi izbegli da zarade relativno manje od nekog drugog.

That's a pretty big price to pay.

To je prilično visoka cena.

What drives people

Šta navodi ljude

to this sort of apparently irrational decision-making?

na donošenje ove očito iracionalne odluke?

After all,

Naposletku,

throwing away your cucumber because someone else got a grape

odbacivanje krastavca zato što je neko dobio grožđe

only makes sense if it makes things more fair.

jedino ima smisla, ako čini stvari pravičnijim.

Otherwise, Winter has a grape, and you have nothing.

U suprotnom, Vinter ima grožđe, a ti nemaš ništa.

Of course humans are not capuchin monkeys.

Naravno da ljudi nisu majmuni kapucin.

But on the surface,

Međutim, na površni,

sacrificing 50,000 dollars

žrtvovanje 50 000 dolara

because somebody else is going to earn more money than you

zato što će neko drugi da zaradi više novca od vas

makes no more sense than throwing away that cucumber.

nema mnogo više smisla od odbacivanja tog krastavca.

Except maybe it does.

Samo što možda i ima.

Some economists think

Neki ekonomisti smatraju

that the sense of fairness in humans is tied to cooperation.

da je osećaj pravičnosti kod ljudi u sprezi sa saradnjom.

In other words, we need that sense of fairness

Drugim rečima, potreban nam je osećaj pravičnosti

when we're working with somebody else

kada radimo s nekim drugim

to know when we're getting the short end of the stick.

kako bismo znali kada dobijamo manje nego što zaslužujemo.

Think about it this way.

Posmatrajte to ovako.

Let's say you have a colleague at work who's having a hard time

Recimo da imate koleginicu na poslu kojoj ne ide

and needs a little extra help.

i potrebno joj je malo dodatne pomoći.

You're probably more than happy to help out,

Verovatno vam je drago da pomognete,

especially if she does the same for you when you need it.

naročito ako i ona isto postupa kada vama zatreba pomoć.

In other words, if things even out.

Drugim rečima, ako sve dođe na svoje mesto.

But now,

Međutim, sad

let's say that colleague is always slacking off

recimo da ta koleginica uvek otaljava

and dumping extra work on you.

i prebacuje dodatni posao na vas.

That's infuriating.

To je nesnosno.

Or worse,

Ili još gore,

what if you're doing all the work, and she's getting paid more.

šta ako vi radite sav posao, a ona je plaćena više.

You're outraged, right?

Ogorčeni ste, zar ne?

As well you should be.

Kao što bi i trebalo da budete.

That righteous fury is your sense of fairness

Taj bes pravednika je vaš osećaj pravičnosti

telling you that, well, it's not fair.

koji vam govori da, pa, to nije pošteno.

You need to get your fair share from the people you're working with,

Morate da dobijete što vam sleduje od ljudi sa kojima radite,

or it's exploitation, not cooperation.

u suprotnom se radi o eksploataciji, a ne saradnji.

You may not be able to leave every job where you're treated unfairly,

Možda ne možete da napustite svaki posao gde se ne ophode pravično prema vama,

but in a perfect world,

ali u savršenom svetu,

one without racism and sexism

u kom nema rasizma i seksizma

and the frictions associated with finding a new job,

i prepreka povezanih sa pronalaženjem novog posla,

it's your sense of fairness that would let you know

vaš osećaj pravičnosti bi vam saopštio

when it was time to move on.

kada je vreme da nastavite dalje.

And if you couldn't?

A ako ne biste mogli?

Well, that smoldering frustration might make you throw your cucumbers too.

Pa, zbog tog tinjajućeg razočaranja možda biste i vi pobacali krastavce.

And humans are not alone in this.

A ljudi nisu izuzetak.

In the previous study, there was nothing Lance could do about it,

U prethodnom istraživanju, Lens je bila bespomoćna,

but what if there had been?

ali šta da nije?

It turns out

Ispostavlja se

that capuchins simply refuse to cooperate with other capuchins

da kapucini prosto odbijaju da sarađuju sa drugim kapucinima

who don't give them their share after they worked together.

koji im ne daju ono što im sleduje nakon zajedničkog rada.

And refusing to work together with another monkey

A odbijanje saradnje sa drugim majmunom

is a pretty straightforward way of leveling the playing field.

je prilično direktan način izjednačavanja odnosa snaga.

Apparently, no monkey getting anything at all

Očito, bolje da nijedan majmun ne dobije apsolutno ništa

is better than another monkey getting more.

nego da drugi majmun dobije više.

But much like you and your coworker,

Međutim, baš kao vi i vaš kolega,

they're perfectly happy with a little short-term inequality

savršeno su srećni sa malo kratkoročne nejednakosti

as long as everything evens out over the long run.

dokle god se sve izjednači na duže staze.

This economic connection between fairness and cooperation

Ova ekonomska veza između pravičnosti i saradnje

makes sense to me as an evolutionary biologist.

meni kao evolutivnoj biološkinji ima smisla.

After all,

Naposletku,

your ancestors didn't get to pass on their genes

vaši preci nisu uspeli da prenesu gene

because they did well in some absolute sense,

jer im je dobro išlo u nekakvom apsolutnom smislu,

but because they did better than others.

već jer im je išlo bolje nego drugima.

We don't call it survival of the fit,

Ne nazivamo to opstankom podobnih,

we call it survival of the fittest.

nazivamo to opstankom najpodobnijih.

As in more fit than others.

U smislu podobnijih od drugih.

It's all relative.

Sve je relativno.

OK.

U redu.

So my capuchins don't like it when they get less than another.

Dakle, mojim kapucinima se ne sviđa kad dobiju manje od ostalih.

And they're perfectly happy to sacrifice their cucumbers

I savršeno su srećni da žrtvuju svoj krastavac

to level the playing field.

kako bi izjednačili odnos snaga.

That's great.

To je sjajno.

But what we would call a sense of fairness in humans

Međutim, ono što nazivamo osećajem pravičnosti kod ljudi

also means that we care when we get more than someone else.

takođe znači da brinemo kada mi dobijemo više od nekog drugog.

What about my monkeys?

Šta je sa mojim majmunima?

It turns out

Ispostavlja se

that primates do notice when they get more than others,

da primati primećuju kada dobiju više od drugih,

or at least some of them do.

ili bar neki od njih primećuju.

My capuchins do not.

Moji kapucini ne primećuju.

But in one of my studies,

Međutim, u jednom mom istraživanju,

my chimpanzees would sometimes refuse a grape

moje šimpanze bi ponekad odbile zrno grožđa,

if another chimpanzee in their group got a cucumber,

ako bi druga šimpanza iz njihove grupe dobila krastavac,

which is pretty impressive, given how much my chimpanzees like grapes.

a to je prilično impresivno, s obzirom na to koliko moje šimpanze vole grožđe.

However, they were still more upset when they got less than another chimp

Ipak, bile su i dalje više potresene kada dobiju manje od druge šimpanze

as compared to when they got more.

u poređenju s tim kad bi dobile više.

You may not think it's fair when you have more than your neighbor,

Možda ne smatrate da je pošteno kada imate više od vašeg komšije,

but you really don't think it's fair when your neighbor has more than you.

ali zaista ne smatrate da je pošteno kada vaš komšija ima više od vas.

Here's an important question, though.

Evo, pak, važnog pitanja.

Why do we care about inequality or unfairness

Zašto nam je stalo do nejednakosti ili nepravičnosti,

when we are the ones who are unfairly benefiting?

ako smo mi ti koji imaju nepravednu korist?

If evolution is about survival of the fittest,

Ako je evolucija opstanak najpodobnijih,

wouldn't it make sense to grab any advantage you can get?

zar ne bi bilo smisleno zgrabiti svaku moguću prednost?

Here's the thing though.

Evo o čemu se, pak, radi.

I do better if I get more than you, sure.

Biće mi bolje ako dobijem više od vas, zasigurno.

But best of all is if you and I can work together

Međutim, najbolje je kad vi i ja možemo da radimo zajedno

and get more than either one of us could have gotten on our own.

i dobijemo više nego što bi iko od nas mogao da dobije pojedinačno.

But why would you work with me if you don't think I'm going to play fair?

Međutim, zašto biste radili sa mnom ako ne smatrate da ću postupati pravično?

But if you think I'm going to notice when I've got more than you

Međutim, ako smatrate da ću da primetim kada dobijem više od vas

and do something about it,

i da ću preduzeti nešto povodom toga,

then you will work with me.

onda ćete da radite sa mnom.

Evolution has selected us to accept the occasional short-term loss

Evolucija nas je odabrala da pihvatimo povremene kratkoročne gubitke

in order to maintain these all-important long-term relationships.

kako bismo održali te izuzetno važne dugoročne odnose.

This is true in chimpanzees,

Ovo je istina za šimpanze,

but it is even more important in humans.

ali je još važnije za ljude.

Humans are incredibly interconnected and interdependent,

Ljudi imaju neverovatnu međusobnu povezanost i zavisnost

and we have the advanced cognitive abilities

i imamo napredne kognitivne sposobnosti

to be able to plan far into the future.

da planiramo daleko u budućnost.

And to recognize the importance

Kao i da prepoznamo važnost

of maintaining these cooperative partnerships.

održavanja tih kooperativnih partnerstava.

Indeed, if anything,

Uistinu, ako išta,

I think we are likely underplaying

smatram da verovatno potcenjujemo

how important the sense of fairness is for people.

koliko je važan osećaj pravičnosti za ljude.

One of the biggest differences between humans and capuchin monkeys

Jedna od najvećih razlika između ljudi i majmuna kapucina

is the sheer magnitude and ubiquity of cooperation in humans.

je puki opseg i sveprisutnost saradnje kod ljudi.

In other words,

Drugim rečima,

we're a lot more cooperative than capuchin monkeys are.

mnogo smo kooperativniji od majmuna kapucina.

Legal and economic systems literally only exist

Pravni i ekonomski sistemi bukvalno jedino postoje,

if we all agree to participate in them.

ako se svi složimo da učestvujemo u njima.

And if people feel left out of the rewards and benefits

A ako se ljudi osećaju zapostavljeno kod nagrada i koristi

of those systems,

tih sistema,

then they stop participating,

onda oni prekidaju učešće

and the whole system falls apart.

i čitav sistem se raspada.

Many of the protests and uprisings we're seeing,

Mnogi protesti i pobune koje gledamo,

both in the US and around the globe,

u SAD-u i širom sveta,

are explicitly framed in terms of fairness,

su eksplicitno formulisani u smislu pravičnosti,

which is not surprising to me.

što me ne iznenađuje.

Whether it's about disproportionate access to resources,

Bilo da se radi o neproporcionalnom pristupu resursima

or that some groups are being disproportionately impacted

ili da su neke grupe neproporcionalno pogođene

by the legal system or the effects of a virus,

pravnim sistemom ili efektima virusa,

these protests are the logical outcome

ti protesti su logičan ishod

of our long evolutionary tendency to reject unfairness

naše duge evolutivne tendencije da odbacimo nepravdu

combined with our long history of social stratification.

zajedno sa našom dugom istorijom društvenog raslojavanja.

And the systemic inequalities

Kao i sistemskih nejednakosti

that have resulted from that stratification.

koje su proizašle iz tog raslojavanja.

Layer on top of this the fact that by many measures

Dodajte tome činjenicu da po mnogim merilima

economic inequality is skyrocketing.

ekonomska nejednakost cveta.

Chris Boehm wrote a book called "Hierarchy in the Forest,"

Kris Bom je napisao knjigu naslovljenu „Hijerarhija u šumi”,

in which he argued that humans have reverse hierarchies

u kojoj je tvrdio da ljudi imaju obrnute hijerarhije

in which those at the bottom band together

gde se oni na dnu udružuju

to keep those at the top from taking advantage of them.

kako bi sprečili one na vrhu da ih iskorišćavaju.

Perhaps these protests are simply the latest manifestation

Možda su ovi protesti prosto najnovije ispoljavanje

of humans' tendency to rebalance the hierarchy.

ljudske sklonosti ka novom uravnotežavanju hijerarhije.

Perhaps the biggest difference between us and capuchin monkeys

Možda je najveća razlika između nas i majmuna kapucina

is that we can recognize this problem

to što mi možemo da prepoznamo ovaj problem

and actively work to do something about it.

i da aktivno preduzmemo nešto povodom njega.

Of course we recognize when we're disadvantaged.

Naravno da prepoznajemo kada smo u nepovoljnom položaju.

But we can and we must also recognize

Međutim, takođe možemo i moramo da prepoznamo

when we're advantaged at the expense of someone else,

kada smo u povoljnom položaju na račun nekog drugog

and recognize fairness

i da prepoznamo pravičnost

as the balance between these two inequalities,

kao ravnotežu između ove dve nejednakosti

because our society literally depends upon it.

jer naše društvo bukvalno zavisi od toga.

Indeed, my research shows

Uistinu, moje istraživanje pokazuje

that not all primate species care about inequality.

da nije svim vrstama primata stalo do nejednakosti.

It's only those that rely on cooperation,

Samo onima koji zavise od saradnje,

which most definitely includes humans.

a tu definitivno spadaju ljudi.

We evolved to care about fairness

Evoluirali smo da brinemo zbog pravičnosti

because we rely on each other for our cooperative society.

jer se oslanjamo jedni na druge u našem kooperativnom društvu.

And the more unfair the world gets,

A što je svet nepravičniji

and the less we care about each other,

i što manje brinemo jedni za druge,

the more peril we will face.

sa više ćemo se suočavati sa opasnostima.

Our issues are more complex than grapes and cucumbers,

Naši problemi su složeniji od grožđa i krastavaca,

but as the capuchins have taught us,

ali kako nas kapucini uče,

we will all do better when we all play fair.

svima nam je bolje kada svi postupamo pravično.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.