Why monkeys (and humans) are wired for fairness | Sarah Brosnan

73,136 views ・ 2020-12-21

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:00
Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta
0
0
7000
00:13
My first year in graduate school, studying cooperation in monkeys,
1
13174
3548
00:16
I spent a lot of time outside,
2
16746
2223
00:18
just watching our groups of capuchin monkeys interact.
3
18993
2893
00:22
One afternoon, I was out back feeding peanuts to one of our groups,
4
22230
3597
00:25
which required distracting one of our males, Ozzie,
5
25851
2722
00:28
enough so that the other monkeys could get some.
6
28597
2572
00:31
Ozzie loved peanuts,
7
31193
2135
00:33
and he always tried to do anything he could to grab some.
8
33352
3224
00:36
On that day, however,
9
36941
1634
00:38
he began trying to bring other things from his enclosure to me
10
38599
3397
00:42
and trade them with me in order to get a peanut.
11
42020
2653
00:45
Now, capuchins are smart, so this wasn't necessarily a surprise.
12
45141
3936
00:49
But what was a surprise
13
49101
1778
00:50
was that some of the things that he was bringing me,
14
50903
2429
00:53
I was pretty sure he liked better than peanuts.
15
53356
3015
00:56
First, he brought me a piece of monkey chow,
16
56827
2134
00:58
which is like dried dog food --
17
58985
1603
01:00
it was even made by Purina --
18
60612
1960
01:02
and for a monkey, is about as worthless as it gets.
19
62596
3195
01:05
Of course, I didn't give him a peanut for that.
20
65815
2445
01:08
But he kept trying,
21
68284
1944
01:10
and eventually, he brought me a quarter of an orange
22
70252
3329
01:13
and tried to trade it with me for a peanut.
23
73605
2928
01:17
Now, oranges are a valuable monkey commodity,
24
77009
3025
01:20
so this trade seemed, shall I say, a little bit nuts?
25
80058
3206
01:23
Now you may be wondering how we know what monkeys prefer.
26
83621
3207
01:26
Well, we ask them,
27
86852
1325
01:28
by giving them a choice between two foods
28
88201
2238
01:30
and seeing which one they pick.
29
90463
1673
01:32
Generally speaking, their preferences are a lot like ours:
30
92160
3028
01:35
the sweeter it is, the more they like it.
31
95212
2357
01:37
So, much like humans prefer cupcakes to kale,
32
97593
2754
01:40
monkeys prefer fruits, like oranges or grapes,
33
100371
3190
01:43
to vegetables like cucumbers,
34
103585
1651
01:45
and all of this to monkey chow.
35
105260
2198
01:47
And peanuts are not bad.
36
107831
1683
01:49
However, they definitely don't prefer them to a chunk of orange.
37
109538
3681
01:53
So when Ozzie tried to trade a quarter of an orange for a peanut,
38
113243
3458
01:56
it was a surprise,
39
116725
1333
01:58
and I began to wonder if he suddenly wanted that peanut
40
118082
3984
02:02
because everybody else in his group was getting one.
41
122090
2849
02:05
In case you're wondering, I did give Ozzie his peanut.
42
125391
2901
02:08
But then I went straight to my graduate adviser,
43
128316
2667
02:11
Frans de Waal,
44
131007
1158
02:12
and we began to design a study
45
132189
1960
02:14
to see how the monkeys would respond
46
134173
2119
02:16
when somebody else in their group got a better reward than they did
47
136316
3817
02:20
for doing the same work.
48
140157
1975
02:22
It was a very simple study.
49
142506
1968
02:24
We took two monkeys from the same group
50
144498
1964
02:26
and had them sit side by side,
51
146486
1845
02:28
and they would do a task,
52
148355
1500
02:29
which was trading a token with me,
53
149879
2071
02:31
and if they did so successfully,
54
151974
2532
02:34
they got a reward.
55
154530
1515
02:36
The catch was that one monkey always got a piece of cucumber,
56
156069
3667
02:39
and the other monkey sometimes got a piece of cucumber,
57
159760
2865
02:42
but sometimes got a grape.
58
162649
1864
02:44
And if you'll recall,
59
164537
1159
02:45
grapes are much preferred to cucumbers
60
165720
2468
02:48
on the capuchin monkey hierarchy.
61
168212
2214
02:50
These are two of my capuchin monkeys.
62
170450
1817
02:52
Winter, on the right, is trading for a grape,
63
172291
2643
02:54
and Lance, on the left, is trading for a cucumber.
64
174958
3063
02:58
You can see that she -- and yes, Lance is actually a female --
65
178045
3381
03:01
is at first perfectly happy with her cucumber,
66
181450
2820
03:04
until she sees Winter trading for a grape.
67
184294
3238
03:07
Suddenly, Lance is very enthusiastic about trading.
68
187946
3072
03:11
She gets her cucumber, takes a bite and then --
69
191358
4101
03:15
throws it right back out again.
70
195483
2802
03:18
Meanwhile, Winter trades again and gets another grape
71
198656
2994
03:21
and has Lance's undivided attention while she eats it.
72
201674
3484
03:25
This time,
73
205555
1173
03:26
Lance is not so enthusiastic about trading.
74
206752
2962
03:29
But eventually, she does so.
75
209738
2625
03:32
But when she gets the cucumber this time around,
76
212387
2936
03:35
she doesn't even take a bite
77
215347
2690
03:38
before she throws it back out again.
78
218061
2400
03:40
Apparently, Lance only wants a cucumber
79
220879
3016
03:43
when she hasn't just watched Winter eat a grape.
80
223919
2773
03:47
And Lance was not alone in this.
81
227046
2071
03:49
All of my capuchins were perfectly happy with their cucumbers
82
229141
3460
03:52
as long as the other monkeys were getting cucumbers too.
83
232625
2817
03:55
But they often weren't so happy with their cucumbers
84
235466
2508
03:57
when other monkeys were getting a grape.
85
237998
2563
04:00
The obvious question is why?
86
240585
2816
04:03
If they liked those cucumbers before,
87
243425
2628
04:06
what changed?
88
246077
1167
04:07
Now, I'm a scientist,
89
247268
1833
04:09
and scientists are famously shy about reading too much into our studies,
90
249125
3762
04:12
especially when it comes to what other animals
91
252911
2269
04:15
are thinking or feeling,
92
255204
1191
04:16
because we can't ask them.
93
256419
1416
04:17
But still, what I was seeing in my monkeys
94
257859
2882
04:20
looked an awful lot like what we humans would call a sense of fairness.
95
260765
3643
04:24
After all,
96
264432
1189
04:25
the difference in that cucumber was that it came after Winter got a grape,
97
265645
4480
04:30
rather than before.
98
270149
1520
04:32
We humans are obsessed with fairness.
99
272014
3227
04:35
I have a younger sister,
100
275265
1590
04:36
and when we were little,
101
276879
1191
04:38
if my sister got a bigger piece of the pie than me,
102
278094
2745
04:40
even by a crumb,
103
280863
1643
04:42
I was furious.
104
282530
1706
04:44
It wasn't fair.
105
284260
2103
04:46
And the childhood me is not alone.
106
286387
3015
04:49
We humans hate getting less than another so much
107
289704
4428
04:54
that one study found
108
294156
1794
04:55
that if humans were given a hypothetical choice
109
295974
2729
04:58
between earning 50,000 dollars a year
110
298727
2167
05:00
while others earned 25,000 dollars,
111
300918
2237
05:03
or earning 100,000 dollars a year
112
303179
2262
05:05
while others earned 250,000 dollars,
113
305465
2762
05:08
nearly half the subjects
114
308251
2072
05:10
prefer to earn 50,000 dollars a year less money
115
310347
3730
05:14
to avoid earning relatively less than someone else.
116
314101
3543
05:17
That's a pretty big price to pay.
117
317668
2200
05:20
What drives people
118
320525
1151
05:21
to this sort of apparently irrational decision-making?
119
321700
3166
05:24
After all,
120
324890
1167
05:26
throwing away your cucumber because someone else got a grape
121
326081
3095
05:29
only makes sense if it makes things more fair.
122
329200
3079
05:32
Otherwise, Winter has a grape, and you have nothing.
123
332756
3952
05:36
Of course humans are not capuchin monkeys.
124
336732
2622
05:39
But on the surface,
125
339378
1293
05:40
sacrificing 50,000 dollars
126
340695
1858
05:42
because somebody else is going to earn more money than you
127
342577
2738
05:45
makes no more sense than throwing away that cucumber.
128
345339
3293
05:48
Except maybe it does.
129
348656
2180
05:51
Some economists think
130
351177
1627
05:52
that the sense of fairness in humans is tied to cooperation.
131
352828
3325
05:56
In other words, we need that sense of fairness
132
356645
2659
05:59
when we're working with somebody else
133
359328
1781
06:01
to know when we're getting the short end of the stick.
134
361133
2563
06:03
Think about it this way.
135
363720
1159
06:04
Let's say you have a colleague at work who's having a hard time
136
364903
2968
06:07
and needs a little extra help.
137
367895
1452
06:09
You're probably more than happy to help out,
138
369371
2071
06:11
especially if she does the same for you when you need it.
139
371466
3219
06:14
In other words, if things even out.
140
374709
2301
06:17
But now,
141
377034
1151
06:18
let's say that colleague is always slacking off
142
378209
2547
06:20
and dumping extra work on you.
143
380780
1583
06:22
That's infuriating.
144
382387
2277
06:24
Or worse,
145
384688
1151
06:25
what if you're doing all the work, and she's getting paid more.
146
385863
3571
06:29
You're outraged, right?
147
389458
2079
06:31
As well you should be.
148
391895
2674
06:34
That righteous fury is your sense of fairness
149
394593
3089
06:37
telling you that, well, it's not fair.
150
397706
3443
06:41
You need to get your fair share from the people you're working with,
151
401173
3528
06:44
or it's exploitation, not cooperation.
152
404725
2769
06:47
You may not be able to leave every job where you're treated unfairly,
153
407518
4032
06:51
but in a perfect world,
154
411574
1206
06:52
one without racism and sexism
155
412804
1940
06:54
and the frictions associated with finding a new job,
156
414768
3000
06:57
it's your sense of fairness that would let you know
157
417792
2395
07:00
when it was time to move on.
158
420211
1906
07:02
And if you couldn't?
159
422141
1373
07:03
Well, that smoldering frustration might make you throw your cucumbers too.
160
423538
5317
07:09
And humans are not alone in this.
161
429268
2071
07:11
In the previous study, there was nothing Lance could do about it,
162
431363
3389
07:14
but what if there had been?
163
434776
2236
07:17
It turns out
164
437036
1190
07:18
that capuchins simply refuse to cooperate with other capuchins
165
438250
3366
07:21
who don't give them their share after they worked together.
166
441640
2920
07:24
And refusing to work together with another monkey
167
444584
2493
07:27
is a pretty straightforward way of leveling the playing field.
168
447101
3595
07:31
Apparently, no monkey getting anything at all
169
451093
2849
07:33
is better than another monkey getting more.
170
453966
2421
07:36
But much like you and your coworker,
171
456411
2539
07:38
they're perfectly happy with a little short-term inequality
172
458974
2972
07:41
as long as everything evens out over the long run.
173
461970
3508
07:45
This economic connection between fairness and cooperation
174
465502
3047
07:48
makes sense to me as an evolutionary biologist.
175
468573
2842
07:51
After all,
176
471439
1160
07:52
your ancestors didn't get to pass on their genes
177
472623
2637
07:55
because they did well in some absolute sense,
178
475284
2714
07:58
but because they did better than others.
179
478022
2792
08:00
We don't call it survival of the fit,
180
480838
1938
08:02
we call it survival of the fittest.
181
482800
2015
08:04
As in more fit than others.
182
484839
2452
08:07
It's all relative.
183
487315
1440
08:09
OK.
184
489577
1151
08:10
So my capuchins don't like it when they get less than another.
185
490752
3063
08:13
And they're perfectly happy to sacrifice their cucumbers
186
493839
2667
08:16
to level the playing field.
187
496530
1341
08:17
That's great.
188
497895
1163
08:19
But what we would call a sense of fairness in humans
189
499082
3303
08:22
also means that we care when we get more than someone else.
190
502409
4175
08:26
What about my monkeys?
191
506933
1643
08:28
It turns out
192
508600
1301
08:29
that primates do notice when they get more than others,
193
509925
3789
08:33
or at least some of them do.
194
513738
2182
08:35
My capuchins do not.
195
515944
1682
08:37
But in one of my studies,
196
517960
2056
08:40
my chimpanzees would sometimes refuse a grape
197
520040
3442
08:43
if another chimpanzee in their group got a cucumber,
198
523506
3770
08:47
which is pretty impressive, given how much my chimpanzees like grapes.
199
527300
4277
08:52
However, they were still more upset when they got less than another chimp
200
532046
5032
08:57
as compared to when they got more.
201
537102
1943
08:59
You may not think it's fair when you have more than your neighbor,
202
539069
3103
09:02
but you really don't think it's fair when your neighbor has more than you.
203
542196
3611
09:05
Here's an important question, though.
204
545831
1992
09:07
Why do we care about inequality or unfairness
205
547847
3119
09:10
when we are the ones who are unfairly benefiting?
206
550990
2770
09:13
If evolution is about survival of the fittest,
207
553784
2629
09:16
wouldn't it make sense to grab any advantage you can get?
208
556437
3928
09:20
Here's the thing though.
209
560810
1508
09:22
I do better if I get more than you, sure.
210
562342
2714
09:25
But best of all is if you and I can work together
211
565080
3075
09:28
and get more than either one of us could have gotten on our own.
212
568179
3389
09:31
But why would you work with me if you don't think I'm going to play fair?
213
571592
3762
09:35
But if you think I'm going to notice when I've got more than you
214
575378
3374
09:38
and do something about it,
215
578776
1531
09:40
then you will work with me.
216
580331
1944
09:42
Evolution has selected us to accept the occasional short-term loss
217
582728
4651
09:47
in order to maintain these all-important long-term relationships.
218
587403
4336
09:52
This is true in chimpanzees,
219
592125
1881
09:54
but it is even more important in humans.
220
594030
2817
09:56
Humans are incredibly interconnected and interdependent,
221
596871
3120
10:00
and we have the advanced cognitive abilities
222
600369
2595
10:02
to be able to plan far into the future.
223
602988
2889
10:05
And to recognize the importance
224
605901
2103
10:08
of maintaining these cooperative partnerships.
225
608028
2767
10:11
Indeed, if anything,
226
611119
2103
10:13
I think we are likely underplaying
227
613246
2207
10:15
how important the sense of fairness is for people.
228
615477
2805
10:18
One of the biggest differences between humans and capuchin monkeys
229
618794
3729
10:22
is the sheer magnitude and ubiquity of cooperation in humans.
230
622547
4141
10:26
In other words,
231
626712
1159
10:27
we're a lot more cooperative than capuchin monkeys are.
232
627895
3071
10:30
Legal and economic systems literally only exist
233
630990
3317
10:34
if we all agree to participate in them.
234
634331
2508
10:36
And if people feel left out of the rewards and benefits
235
636863
2651
10:39
of those systems,
236
639538
1150
10:40
then they stop participating,
237
640712
1381
10:42
and the whole system falls apart.
238
642117
2157
10:44
Many of the protests and uprisings we're seeing,
239
644681
2341
10:47
both in the US and around the globe,
240
647046
2452
10:49
are explicitly framed in terms of fairness,
241
649522
2388
10:51
which is not surprising to me.
242
651934
2222
10:54
Whether it's about disproportionate access to resources,
243
654180
3578
10:57
or that some groups are being disproportionately impacted
244
657782
3007
11:00
by the legal system or the effects of a virus,
245
660813
2967
11:03
these protests are the logical outcome
246
663804
2821
11:06
of our long evolutionary tendency to reject unfairness
247
666649
3975
11:10
combined with our long history of social stratification.
248
670648
3819
11:14
And the systemic inequalities
249
674491
1698
11:16
that have resulted from that stratification.
250
676213
2492
11:18
Layer on top of this the fact that by many measures
251
678729
4079
11:22
economic inequality is skyrocketing.
252
682832
2841
11:26
Chris Boehm wrote a book called "Hierarchy in the Forest,"
253
686493
3063
11:29
in which he argued that humans have reverse hierarchies
254
689580
4127
11:33
in which those at the bottom band together
255
693731
2373
11:36
to keep those at the top from taking advantage of them.
256
696128
2982
11:39
Perhaps these protests are simply the latest manifestation
257
699531
4078
11:43
of humans' tendency to rebalance the hierarchy.
258
703633
3009
11:46
Perhaps the biggest difference between us and capuchin monkeys
259
706666
3564
11:50
is that we can recognize this problem
260
710254
2588
11:52
and actively work to do something about it.
261
712866
2547
11:55
Of course we recognize when we're disadvantaged.
262
715437
3180
11:58
But we can and we must also recognize
263
718641
3578
12:02
when we're advantaged at the expense of someone else,
264
722243
3231
12:05
and recognize fairness
265
725498
1778
12:07
as the balance between these two inequalities,
266
727300
3126
12:10
because our society literally depends upon it.
267
730450
3347
12:14
Indeed, my research shows
268
734391
2468
12:16
that not all primate species care about inequality.
269
736883
4174
12:21
It's only those that rely on cooperation,
270
741081
3218
12:24
which most definitely includes humans.
271
744323
2587
12:26
We evolved to care about fairness
272
746934
2103
12:29
because we rely on each other for our cooperative society.
273
749061
4042
12:33
And the more unfair the world gets,
274
753127
1969
12:35
and the less we care about each other,
275
755120
1888
12:37
the more peril we will face.
276
757032
1929
12:38
Our issues are more complex than grapes and cucumbers,
277
758985
3150
12:42
but as the capuchins have taught us,
278
762159
2436
12:44
we will all do better when we all play fair.
279
764619
3007
12:47
Thank you.
280
767944
1150
About this website

This site will introduce you to YouTube videos that are useful for learning English. You will see English lessons taught by top-notch teachers from around the world. Double-click on the English subtitles displayed on each video page to play the video from there. The subtitles scroll in sync with the video playback. If you have any comments or requests, please contact us using this contact form.

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7