How our friendship survives our opposing politics | Caitlin Quattromani and Lauran Arledge

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: kitty bian

Caitlin Quattromani: The election of 2016 felt different.

凱特琳卡楚曼尼：2016 年的 選舉感覺不太一樣。

Political conversations with our family and friends

我們和家人及朋友之間的政治對話

uncovered a level of polarization

呈現出某種程度的兩極化對立，

that many of us had not previously experienced.

這是我們許多人過去沒有經歷過的。

People who we always thought were reasonable and intelligent

我們本來一直認為理性且有智慧的人

seemed like strangers.

變得像陌生人一樣。

We said to ourselves, "How could you think that?

我們對自己說：「你怎麼能那樣想？

I thought you were smart."

我本來以為你很聰明。」

Lauran Arledge: Caitlin and I met in the summer of 2011,

蘿倫亞雷吉：凱特琳和我 是在 2011 年暑假認識的，

and we bonded around being working moms

我們都是在職媽媽，且試圖讓

and trying to keep our very energetic boys busy.

精力過盛的兒子有事可以忙， 因而成為好友。

And we soon found out we had almost everything in common.

我們很快就發現， 我們的共通點非常多。

From our love of Colorado to our love of sushi,

從我們對科羅拉多的愛， 到我們對壽司的愛，

there wasn't much we didn't agree on.

我們幾乎沒有任何歧見。

We also discovered that we share a deep love of this country

我們也發現，我們都 對這個國家有深刻的愛，

and feel a responsibility to be politically active.

且覺得有責任要參與政治活動。

But no one's perfect --

但沒有人是完美的──

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

and I soon found out two disappointing things about Caitlin.

我很快就發現， 凱特琳有兩點讓我很失望。

First, she hates camping.

第一，她討厭露營。

CQ: I think camping is the worst.

凱特琳：我認為露營是最糟糕的。

LA: So there would not be any joint camping trips in our future.

蘿倫：所以我們未來 絕對不可能來趟露營之旅。

The second thing is that she's politically active all right --

第二，她的確積極參與政治活動，

as a conservative.

但她是保守派。

CQ: I may hate camping, but I love politics.

凱特琳：我也許 討厭露營，但我愛政治。

I listen to conservative talk radio just about every day,

我幾乎每天都會聽保守派的 談話性廣播節目，

and I've volunteered for a few different conservative political campaigns.

我曾在幾個不同的保守派 政治競選活動當志工。

LA: And I'd say I'm a little to the left,

蘿倫：我會說我有點偏左派，

like all the way to the left.

一路到最左邊的左派。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I've always been interested in politics.

我一向對政治很感興趣。

I was a political science major,

我主修政治學，

and I worked as a community organizer and on a congressional campaign.

我當過社區組織者， 也在國會競選活動做過事。

CQ: So as Lauran and I were getting to know each other,

凱特琳：蘿倫與我開始認識彼此時，

正好是 2012 總統大選期間，

it was right in the middle of that 2012 presidential campaign,

and most of our early political conversations

我們之前和政治有關的對話，

were really just based in jokes and pranks.

大多是玩笑和惡作劇。

So as an example, I would change Lauran's computer screen saver

比如，我會把蘿倫的 電腦螢幕保護程式

to a picture of Mitt Romney,

改成米特羅姆尼的照片，

or she would put an Obama campaign magnet on the back of my car.

或者她會把歐巴馬的 競選磁鐵貼在我的車後面。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

LA: Car, not minivan.

蘿倫：是汽車，不是休旅車。

CQ: But over time, those conversations grew more serious

凱特琳：但隨時間過去， 那些對話開始變認真了，

and really became a core of our friendship.

真正成為了我們友誼的核心。

And somewhere along the line,

在某個時點，

we decided we didn't want to have any topic be off limits for discussion,

我們決定，我們不希望 有任何主題是禁止討論的，

even if those topics pushed us way outside of our friendship comfort zone.

即便是會把我們 遠遠推出舒適圈的主題。

LA: And so to most of us,

蘿倫：對大多數人而言，

political conversations are a zero-sum game.

政治對談是場零和遊戲。

There's a winner and there's a loser.

有位贏家，有位輸家。

We go for the attack and we spot a weakness in someone's argument.

我們要去攻擊，我們要找出 某人論點中的弱點。

And here's the important part:

重要的是這個部份：

we tend to take every comment or opinion that's expressed

我們會把表述出來的每個評論或意見

as a personal affront to our own values and beliefs.

當作是針對我們 價值觀及信念的冒犯。

But what if changed the way we think about these conversations?

但如果去改變我們 對這些談話的看法呢？

What if, in these heated moments,

如果在這些激動的時刻，

we chose dialogue over debate?

我們選擇對話，而非爭論？

When we engage in dialogue, we flip the script.

當我們進行對話時， 我們會快速翻過劇本。

We replace our ego and our desire to win

我們會把想要贏的自我和慾望

with curiosity, empathy

換成好奇心、同理心、

and a desire to learn.

以及學習的慾望。

Instead of coming from a place of judgment,

我們不是從評斷的角度出發，

we are genuinely interested in the other person's experiences,

而是真心對於對方的經歷、價值觀、

their values and their concerns.

關心的事感到興趣。

CQ: You make it sound so simple, Lauran.

凱特琳：你把它說得很簡單，蘿倫。

But getting to that place of true dialogue is hard,

但要做到真正對話是很難的，

especially when we're talking about politics.

特別是在談政治的時候。

It is so easy to get emotionally fired up

對於我們很有熱情的議題，

about issues that we're passionate about,

情緒很容易就會被挑起來，

and we can let our ego get in the way of truly hearing

我們的自我很可能會阻礙我們真正去

the other person's perspective.

傾聽另一個人的觀點。

And in this crazy political climate we're in right now,

在我們現在所處的 這種瘋狂政治氣候中，

unfortunately, we're seeing an extreme result

不幸的是，我們看到那些激動的

of those heated political conversations,

政治對話產生很極端的結果，

to the point where people are willing to walk away from their relationships.

極端到人們願意為此 斷絕彼此的關係。

In fact, Rasmussen released a poll earlier this year

事實上，今年早些時候， 拉斯穆森公佈了一項民調，

that said 40 percent of people reported that the 2016 election

指出 40% 的人認為 2016 年選舉

negatively impacted a personal relationship,

對他們的個人關係產生負面影響，

and the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience tells us

而認知神經科學期刊告訴我們，

that people tend to feel their way to their beliefs

對於信念，人們傾向是用感覺的，

rather than using reasoning,

而不是用推論思考，

and that when reason and emotion collide,

而當理性與感性相撞時，

it's emotion that invariably wins.

永遠是感性勝出。

So no wonder it's hard to talk about these issues.

難怪談論這些議題是很困難的。

LA: And look, we're just two regular friends

蘿倫：而且，我們只是 兩個普通的朋友，

who happen to think very differently

對政治以及政府在我們生活中

about politics and the role that government should play in our lives.

該扮演的角色， 剛好有非常不同的想法。

And I know we were all taught not to talk about politics

我知道我們都被教導不要去談政治，

because it's not polite,

因為那樣不禮貌，

but we need to be able to talk about it,

但我們必須要能夠談政治，

because it's important to us and it's a part of who we are.

因為政治對我們很重要， 它是我們本質的一部份。

CQ: We have chosen to avoid political debate

凱特琳：我們選擇避免政治爭辯，

and instead engage in dialogue

取而代之，我們進行對話，

in order to maintain what we fondly call

以維持我們所謂的

our bipartisan friendship.

兩黨構成的友誼。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

LA: And this election and all of the craziness that has followed

蘿倫：這場選舉，以及 隨後而來的各種瘋狂，

has given us several opportunities to practice this skill.

給了我們一些機會來練習這項技巧。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Let's start with January and the Women's March.

我們從一月的女權大遊行開始。

At this point, you can probably guess which one of us participated.

此時，你們應該已經能猜出 我們兩個是誰去參與了遊行。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CQ: Oh, the Women's March.

凱特琳：喔，女權大遊行。

I was annoyed and irritated that entire day,

那一整天，我都覺得很心煩，

really because of two things.

原因有兩個。

Number one, the name "Women's March."

第一，「女權大遊行」這個名稱。

As a conservative woman,

身為保守派女性，

the march's platform of issues didn't represent me,

這場遊行的議題平台並不代表我，

and that's OK,

那沒關係，

but hearing it talked about as this demonstration of sisterhood

但聽它談論要展現姐妹情誼、

and solidarity for all women

所有女性要團結，

didn't ring true for me.

在我聽來並沒有道理。

The other piece was the timing of the event,

另一個理由是遊行的時間點，

the fact that it was the day after the presidential inauguration.

它剛好是總統就職典禮的隔天。

It felt like we weren't even giving the new administration

感覺就像我們甚至不讓新政府

to actually do anything, good or bad,

有機會做什麼，不論做得好壞，

before people felt the need to demonstrate against it.

人們就已經覺得需要展現出反對了。

LA: And under normal circumstances, I would agree with Caitlin.

蘿倫：在正常情況下， 我會同意凱特琳的說法。

I think an administration does deserve the benefit of the doubt.

我認為政府的確應該要 先被認定是無辜的才對。

But in this case, I was marching to show my concern

但在這個情況下， 我遊行是要表示我的擔心，

that a man with such a poor track record with women and other groups

一個過去對女性及其他群體 都有不良記錄的人

had been elected as president.

竟被選為總統。

I had to be part of the collective voice

我必須要成為集體聲音的一部份，

that wanted to send a clear message to the new president

想要給予新總統一個清楚的訊息，

that we did not accept or condone

告訴他，我們不能接受或容忍

his behavior or rhetoric during the election.

他在選舉過程的行為或言辭。

CQ: So I'm already feeling kind of aggravated,

凱特琳：所以，我已經有點被惹火，

and then I see this Facebook from Lauran pop up in my social media feed.

接著，我看到蘿倫的這則臉書貼文 在我的動態時報跳出來。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Seeing Lauran's sons at the march and holding signs

看到蘿倫的兒子們 出現在遊行中，拿著標語，

took it to a new level for me, and not in a good way,

把我帶到了一個新的境界， 且不是好的境界，

because I know these boys,

因為我認識那些男孩，

I love these boys,

我愛那些男孩，

and I didn't feel they were old enough

我不覺得他們的年紀夠大到

to understand what the march stood for.

能了解遊行的意義。

I didn't understand why Lauran would choose

我不了解蘿倫為什麼會選擇

to have them participate in that way,

讓他們用那種方式參與，

and I assumed it wasn't a choice that the boys made for themselves.

我假設那些男孩 並不是自己做決定的。

But I also know Lauran.

但，我也了解蘿倫。

You're an incredible mom

你是個了不起的媽媽，

who would never exploit your boys in any way,

永遠不會以任何方式利用你的孩子，

so I had to stop and check myself.

所以我得停下來，克制自己。

I had a decision to make.

我得要做一個決定。

I could take the easy way out

我可以選簡單的路，

and just choose not to say anything to her,

什麼都不要對她說，

and instead just kind of simmer in my frustration,

把挫折感都往肚裡吞，

or I could ask her to learn more about her motivations.

或是我可以問她， 以更了解她的動機。

LA: And I shared with Caitlin

蘿倫：而我和凱特琳分享，

that we actually started talking about the March

告訴她，我們在參與之前的幾週，

weeks before we participated.

就開始談論那場遊行。

And my boys were curious as to why the event was being organized,

我的兒子們很好奇 為什麼要辦這個活動，

and this led to some very interesting family conversations.

這帶來了一些很有意思的家庭對談。

We talked about how in this country, we have the right and the privilege

我們談到在這個國家中 我們能有權利和特權，

to demonstrate against something we don't agree with,

來針對我們不認同的事物示威抗議，

and my husband shared with them why he thought it was so important

我先生與他們分享了 他為什麼認為男性參與

that men joined the Women's March.

女權大遊行很重要的原因。

But the most significant reason we marched as a family

但我們會全家一起去遊行， 最重要的理由是，

is that it was a way for us to honor my parents' legacy.

這是我們榮耀 我父母的精神遺產的方式。

They spent their careers

他們投入整個職涯，

working to defend the rights of some of our most vulnerable citizens,

來為一些最脆弱的公民捍衛權利，

and they passed these values down to me and my brother,

他們將這些價值觀傳給我和我兄弟，

and we want to do the same with our sons.

我們也想要再傳給我們的兒子。

CQ: After talking to Lauran,

凱特琳：和蘿倫談過之後，

I really understood not only why she felt it was so important to march,

我真的能了解為什麼 她覺得遊行那麼重要，

but why she had her boys with her.

以及為什麼她會帶兒子同行。

And frankly, my assumptions were wrong.

坦白說，我的假設是錯的。

It was the boys who wanted to march

在與家人談過這些議題後，

after they talked about the issues as a family.

男孩們自己主動想要去遊行的。

But what's most important about this example

但這個例子最重要的一點是，

is to think about the alternative.

是要去想想其他的可能。

Had Lauran and I not talked about it,

如果蘿倫和我沒有談這件事，

I would have been annoyed with her,

我就會對她很不爽，

and it could have resulted in an undercurrent of disrespect

可能會導致我們的友誼 產生不尊重的潛在情緒。

in our friendship.

But by asking Lauran questions, it allowed us to use dialogue

但藉由問蘿倫問題， 讓我們能使用對話，

to get to a place of true understanding.

來達成真正的了解。

Now, to be clear,

讓我說清楚，

our conversation didn't really change my mind about how I felt about the March,

我們的對談並沒有改變 我對於那場大遊行的看法，

but it absolutely changed my thinking around why she brought her boys with her.

但絕對改變了我對於 她為什麼帶兒子同行的想法。

And for both of us, that dialogue allowed us to understand

對我們兩個而言， 那對話讓我們可以了解

each other's perspective about the Women's March

彼此對於女權大遊行的看法，

even though we disagreed.

即使我們意見不相同。

LA: The second topic that challenged our ability to engage in dialogue

蘿倫：挑戰我們進行對話 之能力的第二個主題是

was around my need to understand

是我需要了解

how Caitlin could vote for Trump.

凱特琳怎麼能投票給川普。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Caitlin is a successful professional woman

凱特琳是個成功的職業女性，

who is deeply caring and compassionate,

她有深切的關懷與同理心，

and the Caitlin I know

而我所認識的凱特琳

would never excuse any man from talking about women

絕對不會原諒任何男人像川普在

the way that Trump did during the campaign.

競選期間那樣談論女人。

It was hard for me to reconcile these two things in my mind.

對我來說，我很難在腦中 把這兩者放在一起。

How could you overlook the things that were said?

你怎麼能忽略他說的那些話？

CQ: So I'm guessing I may not be the only one here that thought

凱特琳：我猜，這裡 並不只有我一個人認為

we didn't have the best choices for the presidential election last year.

去年總統大選我們 並沒有最好的選擇。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

The Republican candidate who I did support didn't make it out of the primary,

我本來支持的共和黨候選人 在初選就被淘汰了，

so when it came time to vote, I had a decision to make.

到了要投票的時候， 我得要做一個決定。

And you're right, there were some terrible things

你說的沒錯，在川普競選期間的確

that came out during the Trump campaign,

說出了一些很糟糕的話，

so much so that I almost decided to just abstain

我幾乎就打算要投廢票

rather than voting for president,

而不是投給總統了，

something I had never even considered doing before.

我以前從來沒這樣考量過。

But ultimately, I did vote for Donald Trump,

但最終，我確實投給了川普，

and for me it was really a vote for party over person,

對我而言，那張票是 投給黨而不是投給人的，

especially recognizing how important that presidential pick is

特別是我知道總統的選擇對於

on influencing our judicial branch.

我們的司法有多大的影響。

But I shared with Lauran it was a decision I really wrestled with,

但我與蘿倫分享說， 這個決定也讓我很掙扎，

and not one that I made lightly.

我並不是輕易就決定的。

LA: And so after our conversation, I was struck by a few things.

蘿倫：在我們談過之後， 我被點醒了幾件事。

First, I had fallen victim to my own confirmation bias.

第一，我成了我自己 確認偏誤的受害者。

Because of my strong feelings about Trump,

因為我對川普的強烈感受，

I had given all Trump voters the same attributes,

讓我給予所有投給 川普的人同樣的特質，

and none of them forgiving.

不原諒他們任何一個人。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But knowing Caitlin, I started to ask questions.

但因為了解凱特琳， 所以我開始問問題，

What were Trump voters really concerned about?

投給川普的人關心的到底是什麼？

Under all the divisive language, what was really going on?

在所有這些分化的言辭底下 到底是發生了什麼事？

What could we learn about ourselves and our country

我們能從這個不太像真的事件中，

from this unlikely event?

學到些關於自己及國家的什麼？

I also learned that we shared a deep disappointment in this election,

我也發現，我們都 對這次選舉很失望，

and that we have growing concerns about our two-party political system.

我們也都越來越擔心 我們的兩黨政治體系。

But the most important thing about this conversation

但關於這次對談，最重要的就是：

is that it happened at all.

我們對談了。

Without an open and honest dialogue between the two of us,

如果我們兩人之間沒有 開放且誠實的對話，

this election would have been the elephant in the room

接下來的四年，這次選舉 就會像是房間中的大象，

for the next four years, pun intended.

我故意這麼說的。

(Laughter)

（笑聲） （指棘手問題及共和黨的黨徽為大象）

CQ: So, look --

凱特琳：所以──

(Applause)

（掌聲）

So, look -- we know it takes work to get past the difficult,

所以──我們知道 要花心力才能克服困難、

frustrating and sometimes emotional parts

挫折、有時還包括討論時的情緒，

of having discussions about issues like the Women's March

如在討論像女權大遊行、 或為何你朋友要

or why your friend may have voted for a candidate that you can't stand.

投票給你無法忍受的候選人 等等議題時的情緒。

But we need to have these conversations.

但我們需要進行這些對談。

Our ability to move past political debate

我們能從政治辯論

into true dialogue

改變成真正對話的這項能力，

is a critical skill we should all be focused on right now,

是我們目前應該重視的關鍵技能，

especially with the people that we care about the most.

特別是對於我們最珍視的人。

LA: And it's not just as adults that we need to bottle this behavior.

蘿倫：不只是我們 身為成人需要這麼做。

It's critical that we do it for our children as well.

我們為孩子而做也是很重要的。

My sons were inundated with this election.

我的兒子們快被 這選舉的資訊淹沒了。

We were listening to the news in the morning,

我們早上會聽新聞，

and they were having conversations with their friends at school.

他們在學校會和朋友談論。

I was concerned that they were picking up so much polarizing misinformation,

我會擔心他們接收到 這麼兩極化的錯誤資訊，

and they were growing really fearful of a Trump presidency.

他們開始對川普當總統感到很害怕。

Then one day, after the election, I was taking my sons to school,

選後的某一天， 我帶我的兒子們上學，

and my younger son, completely out of the blue,

我的小兒子突然間說：

said, "Mom, we don't know anybody who voted for Trump, right?"

「媽，我們不認識任何 投票給川普的人，對吧？」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And I paused and I took a deep breath.

我停了一下，深呼吸。

"Yes, we do."

「我們有認識。」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

"The Quattromanis."

「卡楚曼尼一家人。」

And his response was so great.

他的反應很棒。

He kind of got this confused look on his face, and he said ...

他臉上有點困惑的神情，他說：

"But we love them."

「但我們愛他們。」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And I answered, "Yes, we do."

我回答：「是的，我們愛他們。」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And then he said, "Why would they vote for him?"

接著他說：「他們為何投給他？」

And I remember stopping and thinking

我記得我停下來，心想，

that it was really important how I answered this question.

我如何回答這個問題是非常重要的。

Somehow, I had to honor our own family values

我得以某種方式榮耀 我們的家庭價值觀，

and show respect for our friends.

同時還要能尊重我們的朋友。

So I finally said,

於是，我終於說：

"They think that's the right direction for this country."

「他們認為這是國家該走的方向。」

And before I had even gotten the whole sentence out,

我還沒能把整個句子說完，

he had moved on to the soccer game he was going to play at recess.

他就轉話題到每次下課時 踢的足球比賽了。

CQ: So life with boys.

凱特琳：男孩的生活啊。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So what Lauran and I have discovered through our bipartisan friendship

透過我們的兩黨構成之友誼， 蘿倫和我所發現的

is the possibility that lives in dialogue.

是對話中蘊涵的可能性。

We have chosen to be genuinely curious

我們選擇要對彼此的想法

about each other's ideas and perspectives

和觀念展現真誠的好奇，

and to be willing to listen to one another even when we disagree.

即使在我們意見分歧時， 也要願意傾聽彼此。

And by putting aside our ego and our preconceived ideas,

把我們的自我以及 先入為主的想法放在一邊，

we've opened ourselves up to limitless learning.

我們得以打開自己， 讓學習不再受限。

And perhaps most importantly for our relationship,

也許對我們的關係而言最重要的是，

we have made the commitment to each other

我們對彼此做出了承諾，

that our friendship is way more important

我們承諾，比起我們誰對誰錯、

than either of us being right or winning a conversation about politics.

或是在政治對談中爭贏對方， 我們的友誼要更重要許多。

So today, we're asking you to have a conversation.

所以，今天，我們想 請各位去進行對談。

Talk to someone outside of your political party

與和你支持不同政黨的人談談，

who might challenge your thinking.

他可能會挑戰你的思想。

Make an effort to engage with someone

花點心力，去和你通常會

with whom you might typically avoid a political conversation.

避免談政治的對象來做互動。

But remember, the goal isn't to win,

但切記，目標不是要爭贏，

the goal is to listen and to understand

目標是要傾聽和了解，

and to be open to learning something new.

是要開放去學習新事物。

LA: So let's go back to election night.

蘿倫：咱們回到選舉夜。

As the polls were closing

開票即將告一段落，

and it became clear that Trump was going to be our new president,

顯然川普會成為我們的新總統，

I was devastated.

我極為震驚。

I was sad, I was confused,

我很傷心，很困惑，

and I'll be honest -- I was angry.

老實說，我也很生氣。

And then just before midnight,

就在午夜之前，

I received this text message from Caitlin.

我收到了凱特琳的文字訊息。

[I know this is a hard night for you guys.

〔我知道這對你們來說 是很艱苦的夜晚。

We are thinking of you. Love you.]

我們一直在想著你們。愛你們。〕

And where there so easy could have been weeks or months of awkwardness

本來很容易就可能會 產生數週或數月的尷尬，

and unspoken hostility, there was this --

不說出來的敵意， 但我就收到這訊息──

an offering of empathy rooted in friendship.

她提供了以友誼為基礎的同理心。

And I knew, in that moment, that we would make it through this.

那一刻我就知道， 我們會渡過這難關。

CQ: So we must find a way to engage in meaningful conversations

凱特琳：我們必須要找到方法 來進行更有意義的對談，

that are going to move us forward as a nation,

讓我們能以一個國家的 身份一同前行，

and we can no longer wait

我們不能再等待，

for our elected officials to elevate our national discourse.

不能再等我們選出的官員 來提升我們國家級的對話。

LA: The challenges ahead are going to require all of us

蘿倫：在前頭的挑戰 會需要我們所有人一起參與，

to participate in a deeper and more meaningful way ...

以更深刻、更有意義的方式，

and it starts with each one of us

從我們每一個人開始做起，

building connection through dialogue --

透過對話來建立連結……

in our relationships, our communities

在我們的關係中、社區中， 以一個國家的身份

and as a country.

來建立連結。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）