A mother and son united by love and art | Deborah Willis and Hank Willis Thomas

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Hank Willis Thomas: I'm Deb's son.

漢克威利斯湯瑪斯： 我是黛比的兒子。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Deborah Willis: And I'm Hank's mom.

黛博拉威利斯：而我是漢克的媽媽。

HWT: We've said that so many times,

漢：這些話我們說過好多次了，

we've made a piece about it.

我們為它創作了一件作品，

It's called "Sometimes I See Myself In You,"

叫做「有時我在你身上看見我自己」，

and it speaks to the symbiotic relationship

談到這些年來我們透過

that we've developed over the years through our life and work.

人生和工作所發展出的共生關係。

And really, it's because everywhere we go,

真的，因為不論我們去哪裡，

together or apart,

一起去或個別去，

我們都會帶著這些名字。

we carry these monikers.

我一直追隨著我媽媽的腳步，

I've been following in my mother's footsteps

since before I was even born

從我出生前就開始了，

and haven't figured out how to stop.

且我還沒想出要如何停止追隨她。

And as I get older, it does get harder.

隨著我長大，的確變得更困難。

No seriously, it gets harder.

真的，會變得更困難。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

My mother's taught me many things, though,

不過，我媽媽教導了我許多東西，

most of all that love overrules.

最主要的是，愛能戰勝一切。

She's taught me that love

她教我「愛」是「行動」，

is an action,

not a feeling.

不是感覺。

Love is a way of being, it's a way of doing,

愛是一種生活的方式、 一種做事的方式、

it's a way of listening and it's a way of seeing.

一種傾聽的方式、一種看待的方式。

DW: And also, the idea about love,

黛：此外，關於愛的想法，

photographers,

攝影師們

they're looking for love when they make photographs.

拍照時在尋找愛。

They're looking and looking and finding love.

他們尋尋覓覓，找到愛。

Growing up in North Philadelphia,

我在費城北部長大，

I was surrounded by people in my family and friends

我身邊的家人和朋友

who made photographs

都會拍照。

and used the family camera as a way of telling a story about life,

他們用家庭照相機做為 訴說人生故事的一種方式，

about life of joy,

訴說喜悅的人生，

about what it meant to become a family in North Philadelphia.

訴說在費城北部「成家」 所代表的意義。

So I spent most of my life searching for pictures

我人生中大部份的時間 都花在尋找照片，

that reflect on ideas about black love, black joy

我要的照片要能反映出關於 黑人的愛、黑人的喜悅，

and about family life.

以及家庭生活的想法。

So it's really important to think about the action of love overrules as a verb.

所以，把愛的行動戰勝一切 視為動詞是很重要的。

HWT: Sometimes I wonder if the love of looking is genetic,

漢：有時我會納悶， 我熱愛「看」是否是基因遺傳，

because, like my mother,

因為，就像我媽媽，

I've loved photographs since before I can even remember.

在我有記憶以來我就很熱愛照片。

I think sometimes that -- after my mother and her mother --

有時我會想，

我媽媽和外婆除外，

that photography and photographs were my first love.

攝影和照片是我的初戀。

No offense to my father,

無意冒犯我爸爸，

but that's what you get for calling me a "ham"

但這是因為你無論到哪裡

都叫我蹩腳演員所造成的。

wherever you go.

I remember whenever I'd go to my grandmother's house,

我記得不論何時我去外婆家，

she would hide all the photo albums

她都會把相簿藏起來，

because she was afraid of me asking,

因為她怕我會問：

"Well, who is that in that picture?"

「照片中的那個人是誰？」

and "Who are they to you and who are they to me,

以及「他們是你的什麼人、 是我的什麼人？

拍照時你幾歲？

and how old were you when that picture was taken?

拍照時我幾歲？

How old was I when that picture was taken?

為什麼他們是黑白的？

And why were they in black and white?

在我出生之前的世界是黑白的嗎？」

Was the world in black and white before I was born?"

DW: Well, that's interesting,

黛：光是去想一下

黑白的世界，就會覺得很有趣。

just to think about the world in black and white.

I grew up in a beauty shop in North Philadelphia,

我在費城北部的一間美容院長大，

在我媽媽的美容院 看著「Ebony」雜誌時，

my mom's beauty shop, looking at "Ebony Magazine,"

found images that told stories that were often not in the daily news,

我發現有些圖像所訴說的 通常是在每天新聞中沒有的故事，

but in the family album.

只在家庭相簿中才有。

I wanted the family album to be energetic for me,

我希望對我來說， 家庭相簿充滿活力，

a way of telling stories,

是說故事的一種方式，

and one day I happened upon a book in the Philadelphia Public Library

有一天，我在費城公共圖書館 碰巧看到一本書，

called "The Sweet Flypaper of Life" by Roy DeCarava and Langston Hughes.

書名叫《人生的甜蜜捕蠅紙》，

作者是羅伊·捷卡拉娃 和朗斯頓·休斯。

I think what attracted me as a seven-year-old,

當時是書名吸引七歲的我：

the title, flypaper and sweet,

捕蠅紙和甜蜜。

but to think about that as a seven-year-old,

但仔細想想，身為七歲的孩子，

I looked at the beautiful images that Roy DeCarava made

我看著美麗的影像， 出自羅伊·捷卡拉娃之手，

and then looked at ways that I could tell a story about life.

接著，看著我能夠 訴說人生故事的方式。

And looking for me is the act that basically changed my life.

基本上是「看」這個舉動 改變了我人生。

HWT: My friend Chris Johnson told me that every photographer,

漢：我的朋友克里斯·強生告訴我，

每一位攝影師、每一位藝術家，

every artist, is essentially trying to answer one question,

本質上都嘗試回答一個問題。

and I think your question might have been,

我認為問題應該是：

"Why doesn't the rest of the world see how beautiful we are,

「為什麼世界上其他人 看不見我們有多美麗、

and what can I do to help them see our community the way I do?"

及我能做什麼來協助他們 以我的方式來看我們的社區？」

DW: While studying in art school --

黛：在藝術學校讀書時──

it's probably true --

那說法可能是真的──

I had a male professor who told me that I was taking up a good man's space.

有一位男教授告訴我， 我佔了一個好男人的空間。

He tried to stifle my dream of becoming a photographer.

他嘗試扼殺我成為攝影師的夢想。

He attempted to shame me in a class full of male photographers.

他試圖在滿滿是男攝影師的 課堂上羞辱我。

He told me I was out of place and out of order as a woman,

他說我已逾越了 身為女人的位置，違反了規則，

and he went on to say that all you could and would do

他接著說，我唯一能做且要做的事，

was to have a baby when a good man could have had your seat in this class.

就是去生孩子，把你在這堂課的位置 讓給一個好男人。

I was shocked into silence into that experience.

那經驗讓我震驚到說不出話。

But I had my camera, and I was determined to prove to him

但我有我的相機， 我下定決心要向他證明

that I was worthy for a seat in that class.

我是值得課堂上那個座位的。

But in retrospect, I asked myself: "Why did I need to prove it to him?"

但事後回想，我自問： 「我為什麼需要向他證明？

You know, I had my camera, and I knew I needed to prove to myself

我有相機，我知道需要向自己證明，

that I would make a difference in photography.

我能在攝影上造成不同。

I love photography, and no one is going to stop me from making images.

我愛攝影，沒人能阻止我製作影像。

HWT: But that's when I came in.

漢：那時我就出場了。

DW: Yeah, that year I graduated, I got pregnant.

黛：是啊，我畢業那年懷孕了。

Yep, he was right.

是，他說的沒錯。

And I had you,

我有了你，

and I shook off that sexist language that he used against me

我擺脫了他用來對付我的 性別歧視語言，

and picked up my camera and made photographs daily,

拿起相機，每天攝影，

and made photographs of my pregnant belly as I prepared for graduate school.

當我為研究所做準備時， 我懷孕的肚子也成了攝影的主題。

But I thought about also that black photographers were missing

但我也在想，攝影的歷史書籍中

from the history books of photography,

少了黑人攝影師，

and I was looking for ways to tell a story.

而我正在尋找說故事的方式。

And I ran across Gordon Parks' book "A Choice of Weapons,"

我碰巧看到戈登·帕克斯的書 《武器的選擇》，

which was his autobiography.

那是他的自傳。

I began photographing and making images,

我開始攝影和製作影像，

and I tucked away that contact sheet that I made of my pregnant belly,

我收起了我為懷孕肚子 所做的索引貼印照片，

and then you inspired me to create a new piece,

你給了我靈感，讓我創作新作品，

a piece that said, "A woman taking a place from a good man,"

這件作品說的是 「佔了好男人的位置的女人」、

"You took the space from a good man,"

「你佔了好男人的席次」，

and then I used that language and reversed it and said,

接著，我用那語言，將它反轉成：

"I made a space for a good man, you."

「我騰出空間給一個好男人，你。」

(Applause)

（掌聲）

HWT: Thanks, ma.

漢：謝啦，老媽。（掌聲）

Like mother, like son.

有其母必有其子。

I grew up in a house full of photographs.

我在一間滿是照片的房子中長大。

They were everywhere, and my mother would turn the kitchen into a darkroom.

到處都是照片， 我媽會把廚房變成暗房。

And there weren't just pictures that she took

而且不只有她拍的照片

和家庭成員的照片。

and pictures of family members.

But there were pictures on the wall of and by people that we didn't know,

牆壁上還有我們不認識、

不知道誰拍的照片，

men and women that we didn't know.

我們不認識的男男女女。

Thanks, ma.

謝啦，老媽。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I have my own timing.

我有自己的時間安排。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Did you see her poke me?

你們看到她戳我嗎？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Puppet strings.

木偶繩。（笑聲）

I grew up in a house full of photographs.

我在一間滿是照片的房子中長大。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

But they weren't just pictures of men and women that we knew,

但它們不只是我們 認識的男女的照片，

but pictures of people that I didn't know,

還有我不認識的人的照片。

Pretty much, it was pretty clear from what I learned in school,

根據我在學校學到的，

很顯然世界上其他人也不認識。

that the rest of the world didn't either.

And it took me a long time to figure out what she was up to,

我花了很長一段時間 才搞懂她打算幹什麼，

but after a while, I figured it out.

但，一陣子之後，我搞懂了。

When I was nine years old, she published this book,

我九歲的時候，她出版了這本書，

"Black Photographers, 1840-1940: A Bio-Bibliography."

《黑人攝影師，1840~1940： 個人參考目錄》。

And it's astounding to me to consider

想到在 1840 年

有非裔美國人會拍照， 我就覺得很驚訝。

that in 1840, African Americans were making photographs.

What does it mean for us to think

那對我們有什麼意義？

that at a time that was two, three decades before the end of slavery,

在奴隸制度終結之前的二、三十年，

that people were learning how to read,

人們要學習如何識字，

they had to learn how to do math,

他們得要學習如何算數，

they had to be on the cutting edge of science and technology,

他們得要在科學和技術的最前線，

to do math, physics and chemistry just to make a single photograph.

來做數學、物理、化學， 只為了拍張照片。

And what compelled them to do that if not love?

若非熱愛，還有什麼 能促使他們這麼做？

Well, that book led her to her next book, "Black Photographers, 1940-1988,"

那本書導致了她的下一本書 《黑人攝影師，1940~1988》，

and that book led to another book, and another book, and another book,

那本書又導致另一本書， 然後又是另一本，又是另一本，

又是另一本，又是另一本，

and another book, and another book,

and another book, and another book,

又是另一本，又是另一本，

又是另一本，又是另一本， 又是另一本，又是另一本，

and another book, and another book, and another book, and another book,

and another book, and another book, and another book, and another book,

又是另一本，又是另一本， 又是另一本，又是另一本，

and another book, and another book, and another.

又是另一本， 又是另一本，又是另一本，

(Applause)

（掌聲）

And throughout my life,

我的一生中，

she's edited and published dozens of books

她編輯和出版了數十本書，

and curated numerous exhibitions on every continent,

在各大洲策劃了許多展覽，

not all about black photographers but all inspired by the curiosity

並非全和黑人攝影師有關， 但靈感都來自好奇心，

of a little black girl from North Philadelphia.

來自費城北部的 黑人小女孩的好奇心。

DW: What I found is that black photographers had stories to tell,

黛：我發現，黑人攝影師 有故事要訴說，

and we needed to listen.

而我們得要傾聽。

And then I found and I discovered

接著，我發現和發掘了

black photographers like Augustus Washington,

像奧古斯塔斯·華盛頓 這類的黑人攝影師，

who made these beautiful daguerreotypes

他在四○、五○年代初期

of the McGill family in the early 1840s and '50s.

為麥基爾家庭做了 這些漂亮的銀版照片。

Their stories tended to be different, black photographers,

黑人攝影師們的故事不盡相同，

and they had a different narrative about black life during slavery,

他們對於奴隸期間的黑人生活 有不同的講述方式，

but it was also about family life, beauty and telling stories about community.

但重點也是家庭、人生、美， 和說出社區的故事。

I didn't know how to link the stories,

我不知道要如何連結這些故事，

but I knew that teachers needed to know this story.

但我知道老師們得要知道這個故事。

HWT: So I think I was my mother's first student.

漢：所以，我想我是 我媽媽的第一個學生。

Unwillingly and unwittingly -- puppet strings --

在不情願但也不知情的情況下 ──木偶繩──

I decided to pick up a camera,

我決定要拿起攝影機，

and thought that I should make my own pictures

我認為我應該要自己來拍照片，

about the then and now and the now and then.

關於那時和現在，以及現在和那時。

I thought about how I could use photography

我思考如何用攝影

to talk about how what's going on outside of the frame of the camera

來談在相機鏡頭外發生的事

can affect what we see inside.

會如何影響我們看待鏡頭內的事。

真相通常掌握在 真正製作影像的人手裡，

The truth is always in the hands of the actual image maker

and it's up to us to really consider what's being cut out.

要靠我們真去思考哪些被刪掉了。

I thought I could use her research as a jumping-off point

我心想我可以用她的研究來當作

of things that I was seeing in society

我在社會所見所聞的起始點，

and I wanted to start to think about how I could use historical images

我想要開始思考我要如何用歷史影像

to talk about the past being present

來談論不能忘記的過去，

and think about ways that we can speak

想想我們有什麼方式

to the perennial struggle for human rights and equal rights

可以談論人權和平權的長年掙扎，

through my appropriation of photographs

透過我的這一份攝影，

in the form of sculpture, video,

以雕塑、影片、裝置、 畫作的形式來呈現。

installation and paintings.

But through it all, one piece has affected me the most.

但，在這當中， 有一件作品對我影響最大。

It continues to nourish me.

它仍然繼續在鼓勵著我。

It's based off of this photograph by Ernest Withers,

基於這張 歐內斯特·維瑟斯拍的照片。

who took this picture in 1968

這是他在 1986 年拍的，

at the Memphis Sanitation Workers March

那是曼非斯清潔工人的罷工遊行，

of men and women standing collectively to affirm their humanity.

男男女女站在一起， 堅決聲明他們的人性。

They were holding signs that said "I am a man,"

他們手持「我是人」的標語，

and I found that astounding, because the phrase I grew up with

我很震驚，因我成長過程聽到的句子

wasn't "I am a man," it was "I am the man,"

不是「我是『人』」， 而是「我是『好漢』」。

and I was amazed at how it went from this collective statement during segregation

我很訝異它如何從 種族隔離期間的集體聲明

to this seemingly selfish statement after integration.

變成整合後似乎自私的聲明。

And I wanted to ponder that,

我想要反思那一點，

so I decided to remix that text in as many ways as I could think of,

所以我決定要混合那些文字， 把我能想出的方式都用出來，

and I like to think of the top line as a timeline of American history,

我把上面那一排 視為美國歷史的時間線，

and the last line as a poem,

下面那一排是一首詩，

and it says,

它寫著：

"I am the man. Who's the man. You the man. What a man.

「我是好漢。誰是好漢？ 你是好漢。好個好漢。」

I am man. I am many. I am, am I.

我是人。我是許多。 我是，是我。

I am, I am. I am, Amen.

我是，我是。我是，阿門。

DW: Wow, so fascinating.

黛：哇，好迷人。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

但，我們從這經驗中學到的是

But what we learn from this experience

is the most powerful two words in the English language is, "I am."

在英文中最強大的 兩個字是「我是」。

And we each have the capacity to love.

而我們每個人都有愛的能力。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）