David Kessler: How to find meaning after loss | TED

Transcriber:

翻译人员: Bokeh Drops 校对人员: Bruce Wang

Cloe Sasha Brooks: Hello, TED Community.

You are watching a TED interview series

called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings.

TED 的各位 大家好

欢迎来到 TED 系列采访视频

I’m your host, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and a curator at TED.

如何应对困难的情绪？

我是主持人兼 TED 负责人 Cloe Shasha Brooks

In this four-episode series, we've been talking with psychologists,

authors and other experts

本系列共包含四支视频

who have shared insights and research about difficult feelings

我们采访过心理学家 作家等各行业专家

and how we can handle them.

他们展示了关于困难情绪的见解和研究

So now I will be speaking with David Kessler,

an author who has written six books on grief and loss.

也说明了该如何应对这些情绪。

今天的采访嘉宾是 David Kessler

Two of those books were co-authored with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross,

他写过六本有关悲痛与丧失的书

a Swiss American psychiatrist who was a pioneer in near-death studies.

其中两本是与 Elisabeth Kübler-Ross 的合著

Elisabeth 是瑞士裔美国精神病学家 是濒死研究的前沿开拓者

And his most recent book, published last year,

is called "Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief."

他最新的著述出版于去年

So let's bring David on screen.

名为 《追寻意义：悲伤的第六阶段》

Hey, David, thank you for joining us.

让我们将镜头转向 David

Let's dive right in.

So many people are struggling with grief right now

嗨 David 欢迎来到这期视频

我们马上开始吧

and the five stages of grief are kind of typically known to be denial,

此时此刻 便有许多人正在与悲痛抗争

悲伤前五个阶段已为人所熟知

anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

But can you tell us about the sixth stage of grief?

包括否认 愤怒 协商 绝望和接受

David Kessler: Absolutely.

And I always like to point out

您能讲讲悲伤的第六个阶段是什么吗？

I was honored to work with Kübler-Ross on her stages.

当然可以

而且我乐于指出

They're not linear,

我很荣幸和 Kübler-Ross 共同经历她的阶段

they're not a map for grief, there's no one right way to do grief.

悲伤的各阶段不是按时间发展的

悲伤不会按阶段顺序发展 也不存在什么正确的进程

And I think as people experience them,

and also, as you know, and some people may know,

我认为 人们体会悲伤时

I'm not only a grief specialist, but I'm a bereaved parent.

有些人可能知道这件事

I had a younger son, David, die a few years ago.

我不只是置身事外地研究悲伤 作为父母 我也正在经历丧子之痛

我的小儿子 David 几年前夭折了

Once I and so many people experience acceptance,

和很多人一样 我也走到了第五阶段 接受

we want more.

Acceptance isn't enough for our generation.

但我们不满足于此

I think we want meaning.

对我们来说 仅仅接受现实是不够的

And I believe meaning is the sixth stage.

我们想要追寻意义

And when we talk about meaning,

我认为 意义就是第六阶段

I always like to point out there's no meaning in a horrible death

谈及所谓意义

我一直认为 在那些可怕事件中 无论死亡还是疫病

or in a pandemic

or in a wedding being canceled or a job being lost.

亦或是婚礼取消或失业

是无法寻找到意义的

The meaning isn't in the horrible event.

The meaning is in us.

意义并非存在于可怕的事件中

It's what we find afterwards.

意义在于我们自身

CSB: I mean, I just think that's such a helpful perspective

在于经历悲痛后的探寻

for people to hold on to.

我认为您的观点非常实用

And I also really appreciate, you know,

you've written about these seven different factors

值得人们相信并实践

而且我也很欣赏你

that guide the concept of meaning when it comes to grief.

你写过这七个不同的因素

Can you tell us about those seven factors?

当谈到悲伤时，意义这个概念被引导出来。

DK: They are, first, meaning is relative and personal.

你能给我们讲讲这七个因素吗？

Two, meaning takes time.

首先，它们是互通的和个人的。

You may not find it until months or even years after loss

二，意义需要时间

because you can't rush the meaning.

失去之后你可能要经历几个月甚至几年才能体会意义

You can't say someone died or a dream died or there's a pandemic,

因为你不能匆忙的冲向意义。

"What's the meaning?" right away, it often takes time.

你不能在有人去世，梦想破灭或大瘟疫时，

And three, meaning doesn't require understanding.

立刻问“意义是什么？” 这通常需要时间。

You know, we may not understand why a relationship ends,

第三点，意义不需要理解。

why a divorce happens,

你知道，我们不一定理解为什么一段关系结束，

why a pet died, why a pandemic happens.

为什么离婚会发生，

But we can still find meaning.

为什么宠物去世，为什么会有大瘟疫。

And four, even when you do find meaning, you won't feel it was worth the cost.

但我们还是会找到意义。

第四，即使你找到了意义，你也不会觉得它可以抵偿你的损失。

We'd always rather have the person we loved.

And the fifth one -- and the fifth is a big one --

我们宁愿我们爱的人还在。

your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle,

第五--第五是最重要的--

你的失去并不是一个测试，一堂课，可以应付的什么事，

a gift or a blessing.

Loss is simply what happens in life.

一个礼物或一个祝福。

And the meaning is in us afterwards.

失去是人生里自然发生的事情。

And six, only you can find your meaning.

之后意义在于我们自身。

And seven,

meaningful connections can replace those painful memories in time.

第六，只有你能找到你的意义。

第七，

假以时日有意义的情感共鸣可以取代那些痛苦的记忆。

The post-traumatic stress that's going on in the pandemic,

I always remind people, one, we're not post,

发生在大瘟疫时期的创伤后的压力，

and two, we can also not just go through this,

我总是提醒大家，一，我们不是柱子，

but grow through this.

二，我们不仅仅是经历挫折

And there's the possibility of post-traumatic growth also

我们还会与之成长。

当然创伤后的成长也会发生

that I think is so important during these tough times.

CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

在这困难时期我认为这很重要。

Let's bring up a question from our audience.

OK, so someone asked,

是的，是的，是的。

"Having lost a daughter,

让我们看看观众提出的问题。

how do I explain my grieving process to those who don't understand

好，有人提问，

“失去了一个女儿

but want to?"

怎样向那些想要理解但还不理解我的悲痛的人

DK: You know, the reality is,

解释这个过程？“

people often, as hard as they try,

你知道，事实是，

may not understand our grief.

人们经常，非常努力尝试，

You know, I don't know what it's like for you to lose your job,

也不理解我们的悲痛。

you don't know what it's like for me to have a child die.

你知道，我不知道你丢掉工作后的感觉，

你不懂我失去一个孩子的悲伤。

And I think one of the important things is for us not to compare griefs

我认为最重要的一件事就是不要拿悲伤作比较

and to know the world is big enough for all our losses.

要了解世界足够大，大到可以容纳我们所有的失去。

So I think sometimes we have to let go of the expectation that they get it.

我想有时我们要放弃别人理解我们的期许。

And we have to go, "I know you can't get it.

So let me tell you what this grief feels like to me."

对他们说，“我知道你不懂。

And share our grief.

所以让我告诉你这个悲伤对我来说是什么样的。“

CSB: Yeah. And you, kind of, have talked a lot about that,

然后分享你的悲伤。

how there's big losses and little losses,

是的。而你，好象，已经说过很多了，

but they're all valid, right?

And they all get to coexist.

什么样是大的损失和小的失去，

DK: I remember that I was walking back in April, in front of my house

它们都是有效的，对吗？

而且它们都会共存。

我记得，四月份我步行回家，在我的房前

with a friend, six feet apart with our masks on.

And a young woman walked up to me and said, "Oh, my gosh," you know,

和我的朋友，我们带着口罩，六英尺的距离。

一个年轻女士走过来说，“天啊，”你知道，

"I heard you do something in grief.

My wedding's just been postponed."

“我听说你在哀悼。

And she burst into tears.

我的婚礼也被推迟了。“

And I talked to her, we --

然后她掉下了眼泪。

You know, she shared her experience and everything, and I consoled her.

我和她交谈，我们--

你知道，她同我分享了她的一切遭遇，我安慰了她。

And after she walked away, my friend said, "Oh, my gosh,

I can't believe she was going on and on about her wedding,

她走后，我朋友说，“哦，天啊，

when your child has died.

难以置信她没完没了的谈论她的婚礼，

She's going to get to have another wedding."

在你的孩子刚刚去世的时候。

And I said, "No, no, no, we don't compare in grief.

她总会有另一个婚礼的。“

We don't have a broken head, we have a broken heart."

我说，：“不，不，不，我们不拿悲痛来互相比较。

And everyone gets to have their own unique grief.

我们不是碰破了头，我们是心碎。“

And, you know, she's been dreaming about her wedding since she was five.

每个人的悲痛都是特别的。

It doesn't take away from my grief.

而且，你知道，她从五岁开始就一直梦想着她的婚礼。

All these losses live in the world together.

这和我的悲伤并不冲突。

CSB: Let's bring another question from the audience.

所有的失去都可以在世上共存。

Someone is asking, "Can you tell us more about post-traumatic growth?

让我们关注观众的下一个问题。

How can I start to grow from a loss?"

有人问，“你能多讲讲创伤后的成长吗？

DK: It’s such a great question,

怎样从失去中开始成长？“

because we always hear about post-traumatic stress,

这是一个很棒的问题，

因为我们总是听到创伤后压力这个词，

But post-traumatic growth actually occurs more.

实际上创伤后成长更多见。

And that is the finding meaning.

Here's one of the myths:

那就是找到意义。

We think we make our grief get smaller, that that's the goal.

以下是谬论之一

我们认为我们的意图是让悲痛变小

The goal isn't to make our grief smaller.

The goal is for us to become bigger, to grow around this grief.

实际上我们的意图不是让悲痛变小。

我们的意图是过往的悲痛使我们成长壮大

It's not "what are we going to do after this pandemic,"

but "who are we going to be?"

不是“瘟疫之后我们将要做什么，”

It's not, "what are we going to do after this loss?"

而是“我们将会成为什么样的人？”

But "Who are we going to be?"

不是，“失去后我们怎么办？”

How can we honor the person who died?

而是“我们将会成为什么样的人？”

How can we make a life and a world that's more meaningful,

我们怎样缅怀逝去的人？

我们怎样让人生让世界各有意义，

where maybe the bad thing that happened to you

doesn't happen to other people in the future.

让在你身上发生的坏事

Or you shape someone's legacy.

不会在将来其他人身上发生

Or we keep talking about them.

或者你继承某些人的遗愿。

As long as we talk about our loved ones who are no longer physically with us,

或者你不断谈论他们。

只要我们不断谈论那些离我们而去的我们爱着的人，

they don't really die fully.

So just allowing ourselves to continue in life

他们并不是完全的逝去。

所以仅仅是允许我们继续我们的生活

is a bit of post-traumatic growth and not shutting down.

And we need support.

已是一点创伤后的成长，而且不要停止。

You know, it's interesting, if something's going on with our car,

而且我们需要支持。

你知道，有趣的是，如果有人与我们同乘一辆车，

we get support.

If something's going on with our apartment,

we get support.

我们得到支持。

Sometimes we think we just have to fight our way through grief

如果有人来到我们的住处，

我们得到支持。

and it's OK to ask for support and for help.

有时我们觉得我们不得不和悲痛一路奋战

CSB: It's so important to remember that.

寻求支持和帮助是可以的。

When it's not tangible we forget how to ask for help.

很重要的一点要记得。

当悲痛不是有形的时候，我们通常忘记寻求帮助。

Along those lines,

do you believe there's a time line for grief?

综上所诉，

DK: Absolutely not.

你觉得悲痛有时间线的吗？

You know, when people ask me,

当然没有。

"How long is my wife, my husband, my best friend going to grieve,"

你知道，当人们问我，

“我的太太，先生，最好的朋友会悲伤多长时间，”

I always say, "How long is the person going to be dead?

Because if they're going to be dead for a long time,

我总是说，“逝去的人的会逝去多长时间？

you're going to grieve for a long time."

因为逝去会很长时间，

It doesn't mean you will always grieve with pain.

所以你会悲伤很长时间。“

Hopefully in time you can grieve with more love than pain.

这不意味着你会带着伤痛悲伤。

希望假以时日你的悲伤会带着爱多于伤痛。

But there is no time line,

and I always say we don't get over loss.

但没有时间线，

We don't recover from loss.

而且我总说我们不是克服了逝去的感觉。

Our loved one was not a cold or a flu.

我们不是从失去中复原。

We learn to live with it.

我们爱的人不是感冒或流感。

CSB: And for those who are maybe ready to start on the path of meaning

我们学会与之相处。

而且对于那些经历悲痛

as they move through their grief,

how does one start that process?

可能准备好开始寻找意义的人

DK: It's actually a decision.

那个进程是怎样的？

Are you willing to find meaning in time?

那事实上是一个决定。

Are you willing to let yourself just live a little more?

你愿意按时找到意义吗？

你愿意让你的人生更丰富吗？

Are you willing to try to think of a way

that might honor what's happened in our world

你愿意想出一个方法

or what's happened in the loss in your life?

尊崇纪念你世界里发生的

It's a small decision.

或你生命里失去的吗？

Am I willing to grow?

这是一个小的决定。

Am I willing to live past this in a way that honors what I've lost?

我愿意成长吗？

我愿意用一个尊崇纪念失去的方法来越过悲伤吗？

CSB: Let's bring up another question from the audience.

"How can we help our children when they experience grief?"

让我们关注观众的下一个问题。

DK: Such a good question.

我们怎样帮助经历悲痛的孩子们？

You know, our children are often the forgotten grievers,

这是一个很好的问题。

And it's so important --

你知道，我们的孩子的悲伤情绪经常会被忽略，

Here's one of the things:

Mourning is what we do on the outside.

这很重要--

这是其中一件事：

Grief is what's inside of us.

哀悼是外在的。

I can't make you grieve.

悲伤是内在的。

I can't make my kids grieve.

我不能让你悲伤。

All we can do is model healthy grief.

我不能让我的孩子们悲伤。

And how do we model healthy grief for our children?

我们能做的是示范健康的悲伤模式。

We tell them part of our work is to grieve fully.

我们怎样给孩子们示范健康的悲伤模式呢？

It's OK to be sad.

我们告诉他们我们工作的一部分 是彻底悲痛。

It's OK to miss that person.

难过没关系。

And to live fully.

思念某人没关系。

Life also has to go on.

而且要生活得充实。

I've still got to go to work, you still got to go to school.

生活也要继续。

So it's the grieving and the living is what we model for them.

我还要去工作，你还要去上学。

所以悲伤和生活是我们给他们的示范。

CSB: And it's so hard to with kids

because it seems like, in some ways,

对孩子们来说太难了

they may not even know what they're feeling, right?

因为从某种角度上说，

So, like, how much of grief with children

他们甚至不知道他们的感受是什么，对吗？

involves helping them understand definitions

好像，多少孩子们的悲伤

or even identifying feelings and all that?

会因为帮助他们理解这些概念

DK: Yeah, and to just name it and open the conversation

或是定义那些情感而被引发？

and just to let them know,

是的，就是命名这些概念然后敞开对话

you know, you can always talk about it with me.

就是让他们知道，

You know, kids actually understand more than we give them credit for.

你什么时候都可以和我谈论这个话题。

你知道，孩子们其实懂得比我们认为他们懂得的还多。’

CSB: That is true.

DK: And euphemisms don't work.

Don't tell them Grandpa's gone to sleep or Grandpa's on a long trip.

那是事实。

委婉的说法不好使。

不要告诉他们外公睡着了或外公出门旅行了，

You want to be honest.

CSB: So, OK, here we are in a new time.

你需要诚实。

We're starting to come out of this pandemic,

好吧，现在我们处在一个全新的时期。

at least in some countries in the world.

我们正在走出这个大瘟疫，

How do you think our collective grief might shift

至少世界上的一些国家已经走出。

你觉得接下来的几个月或几年的时间里我们的集体

in the next few months to years from here?

我们的集体悲伤记忆会怎样转移？

DK: Well, the one thing I hope we don't do is

I hope we don't lose this ability to have these conversations,

我们最好不要做的一件事是

我希望我们不会丢掉交流的能力

because that's been one of the pieces of meaning

that's been important,

is for the first time we're naming these feelings we're having.

因为得到意义中的一步

很重要的是

是首先为我们这些情绪命名。

We're understanding grief, we're talking more about grief.

And I hope we don't lose that after this.

我们理解悲伤，我们更多地谈论悲伤。

I hope we understand grief is such a natural part of life,

而且我希望我们之后不会丢失这个能力。

我希望我们理解悲伤是生活中的自然部分，

that everyone you've ever admired,

every amazing person in the world, has gone through tough grief.

那些你曾经钦佩的每一个人，

世界上每个了不起的人都经历过艰难的悲痛。

And there's nothing wrong with you when it happens to you.

It is part of our lives.

当同样的事发生在你身上，悲伤时没有错的。

CSB: Yeah.

We're coming close to the end,

这是我们生活的一部分。

so just as a final question for you, you know,

是的。

我们进入到结束的部分，

if someone is really struggling through the depths of their grief right now,

作为最后一个问题，对你来说，你知道，

what's just the most important thing for them to remember?

如果有人此刻正在挣扎在深度的悲痛之中，

DK: Reach out and get support, talk to someone,

对他们来说什么才是最重要？

maybe someone who's been in grief themselves

伸出手并获得支持，与人沟通，

that can share that with you.

It can be the family member, the coworker

也许有人本身经历过悲伤

可以与您分享。

and get support from an organization,

可以是家人，也可以是同事

grief.com, as well as so many other sites,

获得一些组织的支持，

have lots of free resources that people can find.

比如grief.com，以及许多其他网站，

人们可以找到很多免费的资源。

And I also want to remind people,

we get so afraid of our feelings,

我也想提醒大家，

like if I start crying, I'll never stop.

我们太担心我们的情绪，

好像如果我们哭泣，我们就会停不下来

I remind people no feeling is final, no feeling is forever.

我提醒人们，没有感情是最终的，也没有感情是永远的。

You do stop crying eventually,

but release those feelings in a healthy way.

你最终会停止哭泣

CSB: Yeah, that's really helpful.

而且以健康的方式释放了那些情绪。

I think that's one of the things that growing up has shown me the most,

是，那很有帮助。

is you know, any emotion is not permanent.

我认为这是成长展示给我们的能力之一

And so that's a source of relief, right?

任何情绪都不是永久的。

DK: And we get so stuck in thinking "This is it forever."

所以那是一种解脱，对吗？

But we don't know what tomorrow is going to look like.

我们被困住了，会想“这就是永远”。

I always say take the word -- always --

但是我们不知道明天会怎样

I say take the word "always" and "never" out of our vocabulary.

我总说拿掉这个词 -- 总是--

When we go, "I'm always going to be sad,"

把“总是”和“绝不”这两个词从我们的词汇表中剔除。

or "I'm never going to be happy again."

当我们说，“我会总是难过，”

No, you don't know what tomorrow is like,

或“我绝不会再快乐了。”

but today you're feeling sad.

Just name your feelings for today.

不，你不知道明天会怎样，

但今天你觉得难过。

CSB: Yeah.

那就定义你今天的情绪。

Thank you, David, this has been really, really meaningful,

and we've learned so much from you.

是的。

谢谢David，你的讲解很有意义，

So thanks for joining us.

DK: Thank you.

我们从中学到了很多知识。

CSB: Have a great day.

谢谢大家的参与。

感谢。

再见。