David Kessler: How to find meaning after loss | TED

Transcriber:

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Cloe Sasha Brooks: Hello, TED Community.

克洛伊·莎夏·布魯克斯： 哈囉，TED 社群。

You are watching a TED interview series

你正在收看 TED 訪談系列 《如何處理難受的感覺》。

called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings.

I’m your host, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and a curator at TED.

我是主持人克洛伊·莎夏·布魯克斯，

我也是 TED 的策展人。

In this four-episode series, we've been talking with psychologists,

在這系列的四集節目中， 我們已經邀請過心理學家、

authors and other experts

作家，及其他專家來談過。

who have shared insights and research about difficult feelings

針對難受的感覺及要如何處理， 他們分享了許多洞見和研究，

and how we can handle them.

So now I will be speaking with David Kessler,

現在我要來訪問大衛·凱斯勒。

an author who has written six books on grief and loss.

他是位作者，寫過六本 關於悲傷和失去的書。

Two of those books were co-authored with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross,

其中有兩本是和伊麗莎白· 庫伯勒-羅斯合著的，

a Swiss American psychiatrist who was a pioneer in near-death studies.

她是瑞士裔的美國精神病學家，

在瀕死研究領域是位先驅。

And his most recent book, published last year,

大衛·凱斯勒的新書在去年出版，

is called "Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief."

書名是《找到意義： 悲傷的第六個階段》。

So let's bring David on screen.

咱們把大衛的影像放上來吧。

Hey, David, thank you for joining us.

嗨，大衛，謝謝你來參加。 咱們直接開始吧。

Let's dive right in.

So many people are struggling with grief right now

現在有好多人為悲傷所苦，

and the five stages of grief are kind of typically known to be denial,

一般所知，悲傷的五個階段為：

否認、憤怒、

anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

討價還價、沮喪、接受。

But can you tell us about the sixth stage of grief?

但，你能不能跟我們談談 悲傷的第六個階段？

David Kessler: Absolutely.

大衛：沒問題。我通常 都會先強調我很榮幸

And I always like to point out

I was honored to work with Kübler-Ross on her stages.

針對悲傷的階段，能夠和 提出它們的庫伯勒-羅斯合作。

They're not linear,

這些階段不是線性的， 它們不是悲傷地圖，

they're not a map for grief, there's no one right way to do grief.

也沒有正確的悲傷方式。

And I think as people experience them,

當大家經歷這些階段，

and also, as you know, and some people may know,

此外，有些人可能知道，

I'm not only a grief specialist, but I'm a bereaved parent.

我不只是悲傷專家， 我也是喪子的家長。

I had a younger son, David, die a few years ago.

我的小兒子大衛在幾年前過世了。

Once I and so many people experience acceptance,

我和許多人一樣

在走過了接受階段之後，

we want more.

會想要更多。

Acceptance isn't enough for our generation.

對我們這個世代，接受還不夠。

I think we want meaning.

我想，我們想要意義。

And I believe meaning is the sixth stage.

我相信意義就是第六個階段。

And when we talk about meaning,

談到意義時，我都會想要強調，

I always like to point out there's no meaning in a horrible death

在可怕的死亡當中是沒有 意義的，或在疫情中，

or in a pandemic

or in a wedding being canceled or a job being lost.

或在被取消的婚禮中， 或在丟掉的工作中。

The meaning isn't in the horrible event.

意義並不存在於可怕的事件當中。

The meaning is in us.

意義是在我們的內在。

It's what we find afterwards.

是我們在事件之後找到的。

CSB: I mean, I just think that's such a helpful perspective

克洛伊：我覺得這個觀點 對大家會十分有幫助。

for people to hold on to.

And I also really appreciate, you know,

我也很感謝你在書中 提出七個不同的因素，

you've written about these seven different factors

that guide the concept of meaning when it comes to grief.

在悲傷中引導出意義的概念。

Can you tell us about those seven factors?

能跟我們談談這七個因素嗎？

DK: They are, first, meaning is relative and personal.

大衛：第一，意義是 相對的且是個人的。

Two, meaning takes time.

第二，意義要花時間找。 可能不會馬上找到，

You may not find it until months or even years after loss

可能在失去之後數個月 甚至數年才會找到，

because you can't rush the meaning.

找意義是急不得的。你不能說

You can't say someone died or a dream died or there's a pandemic,

當有人過世，或夢想破滅， 或疫情爆發時，不能

"What's the meaning?" right away, it often takes time.

馬上就問「意義是什麼？」 這要花時間的。

And three, meaning doesn't require understanding.

第三，不見得要了解才會有意義。

You know, we may not understand why a relationship ends,

我們可能不會了解關係為什麼 會斷掉，離婚為什麼會發生，

why a divorce happens,

why a pet died, why a pandemic happens.

為什麼寵物會死， 為什麼疫情會爆發。

But we can still find meaning.

但我們仍然能找到意義。

And four, even when you do find meaning, you won't feel it was worth the cost.

第四，就算你找到意義了， 你也不會覺得這個代價值得。

We'd always rather have the person we loved.

我們一定都寧可不要失去愛人。

And the fifth one -- and the fifth is a big one --

第五——第五很重要——

your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle,

失去，並不是一種考驗、教訓、

要處理的事情、

a gift or a blessing.

禮物，或福賜。

Loss is simply what happens in life.

失去就只是人生中會發生的一件事。

And the meaning is in us afterwards.

意義是事後在我們內在產生的。

And six, only you can find your meaning.

第六，自己的意義只有自己能找到。

And seven,

第七，有意義的連結

meaningful connections can replace those painful memories in time.

隨時間可以取代掉那些痛苦的記憶。

The post-traumatic stress that's going on in the pandemic,

創傷後壓力出現在疫情當中， 我總是會提醒大家，

I always remind people, one, we're not post,

第一，我們不是「後」，

and two, we can also not just go through this,

第二，

我們不只能度過它，還能從中成長。

but grow through this.

And there's the possibility of post-traumatic growth also

創傷後成長是有可能的，

that I think is so important during these tough times.

在艱困的時刻， 我認為這點十分重要。

CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

克洛伊：是的，是的。 咱們來聽聽觀眾的問題。

Let's bring up a question from our audience.

OK, so someone asked,

有人提問：「我失去了女兒，

"Having lost a daughter,

how do I explain my grieving process to those who don't understand

我要如何向那些 不了解但想要了解的人

解釋我的悲傷過程？

but want to?"

DK: You know, the reality is,

大衛：要知道，現實是，

people often, as hard as they try,

通常，儘管別人很努力嘗試，

may not understand our grief.

仍然無法了解我們的悲傷。

You know, I don't know what it's like for you to lose your job,

我不會知道你丟掉工作 是什麼樣的感覺，

you don't know what it's like for me to have a child die.

你不會知道我的孩子過世 會是什麼樣的感覺。

And I think one of the important things is for us not to compare griefs

我認為，重要的是，

不要去比較悲傷，

and to know the world is big enough for all our losses.

要知道，世界夠大， 容得下所有人的失去。

So I think sometimes we have to let go of the expectation that they get it.

我認為，有時，

我們得要放下，不要期望別人能懂。

And we have to go, "I know you can't get it.

我們得說：「我知道你無法了解，

So let me tell you what this grief feels like to me."

讓我告訴你，我感受到的 悲傷是怎樣的。」

And share our grief.

分享我們的悲傷。

CSB: Yeah. And you, kind of, have talked a lot about that,

克洛伊：是的，這方面你談過不少，

how there's big losses and little losses,

失去有大有小，但都是失去。

but they're all valid, right?

And they all get to coexist.

它們都能共存。

DK: I remember that I was walking back in April, in front of my house

大衛：我記得四月的時候，

我在我家前面和一位朋友散步，

with a friend, six feet apart with our masks on.

戴口罩且保持六呎的距離。

And a young woman walked up to me and said, "Oh, my gosh," you know,

一位年輕女子走向我，說：

「喔，天。我聽說 你做和悲傷有關的事。

"I heard you do something in grief.

My wedding's just been postponed."

我的婚禮剛延期了。」 她接著大哭起來。

And she burst into tears.

And I talked to her, we --

我便和她談談，我們……

You know, she shared her experience and everything, and I consoled her.

她分享了她的經歷等等，

而我在安慰她。

And after she walked away, my friend said, "Oh, my gosh,

她離開後，

我朋友說：「喔，天，

I can't believe she was going on and on about her wedding,

我無法相信她能 一直不停地講她的婚禮，

when your child has died.

你的孩子是過世了。 而她還可以再辦一次婚禮。

She's going to get to have another wedding."

And I said, "No, no, no, we don't compare in grief.

我說：「不，不，不

我們不能比較悲傷。

We don't have a broken head, we have a broken heart."

我們碎掉的是心，不是腦袋。」

And everyone gets to have their own unique grief.

每個人都可以有 自己獨一無二的悲傷。

And, you know, she's been dreaming about her wedding since she was five.

她從五歲時就開始夢想著她的婚禮。

It doesn't take away from my grief.

那不會影響我的悲傷。

All these losses live in the world together.

所有這些失去，都共存在世界上。

CSB: Let's bring another question from the audience.

克洛伊：再來看一個觀眾的問題。

Someone is asking, "Can you tell us more about post-traumatic growth?

有人問：「能跟我們 多談談創傷後成長嗎？

How can I start to grow from a loss?"

我要如何開始從失去產生成長？」

DK: It’s such a great question,

大衛：很好的問題，

because we always hear about post-traumatic stress,

因為我們總是聽到創傷後壓力，

But post-traumatic growth actually occurs more.

但其實創傷後成長更常發生。

And that is the finding meaning.

那就是找到意義。

Here's one of the myths:

以下是一個謎思：

We think we make our grief get smaller, that that's the goal.

我們認為我們要 把悲傷變小，那是目標。

The goal isn't to make our grief smaller.

目標並不是要把悲傷變小。

The goal is for us to become bigger, to grow around this grief.

目標是要讓我們變大，

因為這悲傷而成長。

It's not "what are we going to do after this pandemic,"

重點不是「在疫情之後 我們要做什麼」，

but "who are we going to be?"

而是「我們要成為怎樣的人」。

It's not, "what are we going to do after this loss?"

不是「在失去之後我們要做什麼」，

But "Who are we going to be?"

而是「我們要成為怎樣的人」。 我們要如何對死者表示敬意？

How can we honor the person who died?

How can we make a life and a world that's more meaningful,

我們要如何創造出 更有意義的人生和世界？

where maybe the bad thing that happened to you

讓發生在你身上的壞事，

doesn't happen to other people in the future.

在未來不會發生在別人身上。

Or you shape someone's legacy.

或者你可以讓他留下 一些什麼給後人。

Or we keep talking about them.

或者我們不斷談論他們。 只要我們還在談論我們的愛人，

As long as we talk about our loved ones who are no longer physically with us,

即使他們已經不在我們身邊，

they don't really die fully.

他們也不會完全死去。

So just allowing ourselves to continue in life

讓我們自己的人生繼續走下去，

is a bit of post-traumatic growth and not shutting down.

那就算是創傷後成長，

沒有封閉起來。

And we need support.

我們需要支持。這很有趣，

You know, it's interesting, if something's going on with our car,

如果我們的車出了什麼問題， 我們會去找支援。

we get support.

如果我們的公寓出了什麼問題，

If something's going on with our apartment,

we get support.

我們會去找支援。

Sometimes we think we just have to fight our way through grief

有時我們會認為，我們 得在悲傷中拼出一條出路，

and it's OK to ask for support and for help.

而，我們可以尋求支持和協助。

CSB: It's so important to remember that.

克洛伊：記住這點很重要。

When it's not tangible we forget how to ask for help.

面對不是實體的問題， 我們會忘了如何求助。

Along those lines,

你是否相信悲傷 也有某種時間表之類的？

do you believe there's a time line for grief?

DK: Absolutely not.

大衛：絕對沒有。

You know, when people ask me,

當有人問我：

"How long is my wife, my husband, my best friend going to grieve,"

「我太太、先生、最好的朋友 還需要悲傷多久？」

I always say, "How long is the person going to be dead?

我總是說：「這個人會死去多久？

Because if they're going to be dead for a long time,

如果他會死去很長的時間， 你的悲傷也會持續很長的時間。」

you're going to grieve for a long time."

It doesn't mean you will always grieve with pain.

那不表示你的悲傷會一直帶著痛苦。

Hopefully in time you can grieve with more love than pain.

希望隨時間過去，你的悲傷 會帶著比痛苦更多的愛。

But there is no time line,

但並沒有時間表，且我總會說，

and I always say we don't get over loss.

我們不會忘懷失去的。

We don't recover from loss.

我們不會從失去中恢復。

Our loved one was not a cold or a flu.

我們的愛人並不是感冒或流感。

We learn to live with it.

我們是學會與失去共存。

CSB: And for those who are maybe ready to start on the path of meaning

克洛伊：對於那些準備好

在悲傷的過程中要開始 走上意義之路的人，

as they move through their grief,

how does one start that process?

要怎麼開始這個過程？

DK: It's actually a decision.

大衛：那其實是一個決定。

Are you willing to find meaning in time?

你願意及時去找到意義嗎？

Are you willing to let yourself just live a little more?

你願意讓你自己再活得更多一點點？

Are you willing to try to think of a way

你願意試著想辦法

that might honor what's happened in our world

向世界上發生的事情表示敬意？

or what's happened in the loss in your life?

或向你人生中的失去表示敬意？

It's a small decision.

這是個小決定。

Am I willing to grow?

我願意成長嗎？

Am I willing to live past this in a way that honors what I've lost?

我願意走過這件事， 並尊重我所失去的嗎？

CSB: Let's bring up another question from the audience.

克洛伊：我們再來看 一個觀眾的問題。

"How can we help our children when they experience grief?"

「我們的孩子遇到悲傷時， 我們要如何協助？」

DK: Such a good question.

大衛：好問題。我們的孩子 也會悲傷但很容易被忽略。

You know, our children are often the forgotten grievers,

And it's so important --

很重要的——重點是：

Here's one of the things:

Mourning is what we do on the outside.

哀悼是我們外在做的事情。

Grief is what's inside of us.

悲傷則在我們的內在。

I can't make you grieve.

我無法讓你悲傷。

I can't make my kids grieve.

我無法讓我的孩子悲傷。

All we can do is model healthy grief.

我們能做的只有在悲傷方面 當個健康的模範。

And how do we model healthy grief for our children?

我們要如何示範 健康的悲傷給孩子看？

We tell them part of our work is to grieve fully.

告訴他們，有部分要做的是 把悲傷做完全。

It's OK to be sad.

傷心也沒關係。

It's OK to miss that person.

想念那個人也沒關係。

And to live fully.

要活得完整。

Life also has to go on.

人生還得走下去。

I've still got to go to work, you still got to go to school.

我還是得去工作。你還是得上學。

So it's the grieving and the living is what we model for them.

我們要示範給他們看的 是怎麼悲傷和生活。

CSB: And it's so hard to with kids

克洛伊：孩子的情況真的很不容易，

because it seems like, in some ways,

因為，似乎，在某種層面上，

they may not even know what they're feeling, right?

他們可能都不了解 自己的感覺，對吧？

So, like, how much of grief with children

就孩子的悲傷來說有多少會涉及到

involves helping them understand definitions

協助他們了解定義，或甚至

or even identifying feelings and all that?

認識感受等等？

DK: Yeah, and to just name it and open the conversation

大衛：說出來， 打開對話，讓他們知道，

and just to let them know,

you know, you can always talk about it with me.

你永遠可以跟我談這些事。

You know, kids actually understand more than we give them credit for.

孩子了解的其實比我們認為的還多。

CSB: That is true.

克洛伊：的確。

DK: And euphemisms don't work.

婉轉說法是行不通的。

Don't tell them Grandpa's gone to sleep or Grandpa's on a long trip.

別告訴他們爺爺去睡覺了， 或者爺爺邁上了漫長的旅程。

You want to be honest.

你要誠實。

CSB: So, OK, here we are in a new time.

克洛伊：我們現在處在一個新時代。

We're starting to come out of this pandemic,

我們開始脫離疫情， 至少世界上一些國家是如此。

at least in some countries in the world.

How do you think our collective grief might shift

在你看來，我們集體的悲傷

在接下來幾個月到幾年 會從現狀況生什麼轉變？

in the next few months to years from here?

DK: Well, the one thing I hope we don't do is

大衛：我希望有件事不要發生， 就是我希望我們不要

I hope we don't lose this ability to have these conversations,

失去做這些談話的能力，

because that's been one of the pieces of meaning

因為這是意義中很重要的一部分，

that's been important,

is for the first time we're naming these feelings we're having.

這是第一次，

我們能夠把我們的感受點名出來。

We're understanding grief, we're talking more about grief.

我們在了解悲傷， 我們對悲傷也談了更多。

And I hope we don't lose that after this.

我希望疫情之後我們不要 失去這一點。我希望我們

I hope we understand grief is such a natural part of life,

能了解悲傷是人生中 很自然的一部分，

that everyone you've ever admired,

你曾經欣賞過的任何人，

every amazing person in the world, has gone through tough grief.

世界上每個了不起的人，

都經歷過艱難的悲傷。

And there's nothing wrong with you when it happens to you.

發生在你身上時，並不是你有問題。

It is part of our lives.

這是人生的一部分。

CSB: Yeah.

克洛伊：好的。接近尾聲了。 再請教你最後一個問題。

We're coming close to the end,

so just as a final question for you, you know,

如果有人現在正在經歷很深的悲傷，

if someone is really struggling through the depths of their grief right now,

what's just the most important thing for them to remember?

對他們來說，最重要 要記住的事是什麼？

DK: Reach out and get support, talk to someone,

大衛：向外求助，

找人談談，也許是曾經 經歷過悲傷的人，

maybe someone who's been in grief themselves

that can share that with you.

可以跟你分享經驗。

It can be the family member, the coworker

可以是家人，可以是同事，

and get support from an organization,

向組織取得支持協助，

grief.com, as well as so many other sites,

grief.com 和許多其他網站，

have lots of free resources that people can find.

有許多免費資源可以提供給大家。

And I also want to remind people,

我還想提醒大家，

we get so afraid of our feelings,

我們很害怕我們的感覺，

like if I start crying, I'll never stop.

好像如果我開始哭泣 就永遠停不下來似的。

I remind people no feeling is final, no feeling is forever.

我要提醒大家， 沒有任何感覺是最終的，

沒有任何感覺是永遠的。

You do stop crying eventually,

最終，你一定會停止哭泣，

but release those feelings in a healthy way.

但要用健康的方式來釋放那些感覺。

CSB: Yeah, that's really helpful.

克洛伊：這些很有幫助。 我想，那是……

I think that's one of the things that growing up has shown me the most,

成長過程中我學到最多的是，

is you know, any emotion is not permanent.

所有的情緒都不是永久的。

And so that's a source of relief, right?

讓人鬆一口氣，對吧？

DK: And we get so stuck in thinking "This is it forever."

大衛：我們很容易滿腦子 想著「永遠就是這樣了」。

But we don't know what tomorrow is going to look like.

但我們不知道明天 會如何。我一直都會說，

I always say take the word -- always --

把「一直」這個詞，

I say take the word "always" and "never" out of our vocabulary.

把「一直」和「永不」 從我們的字彙中拿掉。

When we go, "I'm always going to be sad,"

當我們說「我會一直很難過」， 或「我永遠不會再快樂了。」

or "I'm never going to be happy again."

No, you don't know what tomorrow is like,

不，你不知道明天會如何，

but today you're feeling sad.

但，今天你覺得很難過。

Just name your feelings for today.

說出你今天的感覺就好。

CSB: Yeah.

克洛伊：是的。謝謝你，大衛， 這段談話相當有意義，

Thank you, David, this has been really, really meaningful,

and we've learned so much from you.

我們向你學了很多。謝謝你來參加。

So thanks for joining us.

DK: Thank you.

大衛：謝謝。 克洛伊：祝今天愉快。

CSB: Have a great day.