Poetry, music and identity (with English subtitles) | Jorge Drexler | TED

翻译人员: Junyi Sha 校对人员: Jack Zhang

I'm going to tell you the story of a song.

我想和你们分享一首歌的故事。

I was in Madrid one night in 2002

2002年的某天夜里，我在马德里

with my teacher and friend Joaquín Sabina,

和我的老师兼朋友 Joaquín Sabina一起，

when he said he had something to give me.

他说有东西要给我。

He said,

他说，

"Jorge, I have some lines that you need to put into a song.

“Jorge，我有一些词， 你一定要把它写进歌里

Take these down, take these down."

把它们记下来，写下来。”

我扫视了桌子，只看到一个圆杯垫，

I looked on the table but all I found was a circular coaster,

on which I wrote the lines my teacher dictated.

我就跟着老师的口述 把句子写了上去。

They were four lines that went like this:

有四行像这样的：

"I am a Jewish Moor living among Christians

”我是一个犹太摩尔人 生活在基督徒中，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are."

我不知道我的上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。”

Those lines really made an impression on me.

这些词句给我留下了深刻印象，

I said, "What beautiful lyrics, Joaquín. Did you write them?"

我说：”多美的歌词。 Joaquín，你写的吗？"

He said no, they were by another composer named Chicho Sánchez Ferlosio,

他说，“不是。”

他说，这是个叫Chicho Sánchez Ferlosio的作曲家写的。

who was less known than Joaquín, but also a great poet.

他不如Joaquín有名 但也是个伟大的诗人。

These lines came to me at a time

这些句子正好诉说了

where I had been wanting to express something for a while,

我一度想要表达

却不知如何诉说的东西。

but didn't quite know how.

I was getting up to leave and go home to write,

当我正起身准备回家写歌，

when Joaquín stopped me and said, "Hang on, hang on,"

Joaquín截住了我，说 "等一下，等一下”

并给了我一个挑战，

and presented me with this challenge:

"Write the stanzas for this song

”为这首歌写一节吧

in Décimas."

用Décimas的格式。”

Now, at this point in my life,

至今，在人生的这一刻，

I still wasn't completely sure what Décimas were,

我仍然不完全明白 Décimas是什么，

but I was too embarrassed to tell my teacher I didn't know.

但我没脸告诉老师其实我不知道，

So I put on my best "Yeah, I totally understand" face,

我便逞强装出一副“我完全明白” 的样子，

and went home to look up what Décimas were.

然后回家查Décimas是什么。

I learned that a Décima is a type of verse

我了解到Décimas是诗的一种

that only exists in Spanish,

且只存在于西班牙语中，

and that it has 10 lines.

它有十行。

It's very, very complex --

非常复杂，非常非常的复杂。

perhaps the most complex style of stanza that we have in Spanish.

可能是西班牙语中最复杂的一种诗。

It also has a very concrete date of origin,

它有具体的诞生时期，

which is very rare for a style of stanza.

这对于诗而言是很罕见的。

The Décima was invented in Spain in 1591,

1591年，Décimas在西班牙被发明，

by a guy named Vicente Espinel, a musician and poet from Málaga.

发明者是Vicente Espinel，

一位来自马拉加的音乐家及诗人。

And listen to this coincidence: he was the same guy

巧的是，他也是

who added the sixth string

为后来的西班牙吉他

to what would later be called the Spanish guitar.

增设第六根弦的人。

This string right here --

那一根弦

it's called the "bordona."

被称作 "Bordona"。

From Spain, the Décima, with its 10 lines,

十行诗Décima从西班牙

crosses over to America, just like the Spanish guitar,

流传到美洲， 就像西班牙吉他一样，

but in contrast to the Décima,

但与Décima不同的是

the Spanish guitar continues to live today

西班牙吉他至今仍存在于

on both sides of the Atlantic.

大西洋的两岸。

But the Décima, in Spain, its birthplace,

但Décima在诞生地西班牙

disappeared; it died out.

已经消失了。

It died out about 200 years ago,

它消失于200年前。

and yet in Latin America, from Mexico to Chile,

然而在拉丁美洲，从墨西哥到智利

all our countries maintain some form of the Décima

这些国家都在流行传统中存留着 Décima的衍生形式。

in our popular traditions.

In each place, they've given it a different name,

在不同的地方， 人们给予它不同的名字，

and set it to different music.

搭配不同的音乐。

It has a lot of different names -- more than 20 in total on the continent.

在拉丁美洲它有20多个别名。

In Mexico, for example, it's called the "Son Jarocho,"

例如，在墨西哥它被叫做 "夏洛楚颂乐"，

"Canto de mejorana" in Panama;

在巴拿马被称为"墨兰角之歌"，

"Galerón" in Venezuela;

在委内瑞拉是"加莱隆"，

"Payada" in Uruguay and Argentina;

乌拉圭和阿根廷是"Payada"，

"Repentismo" in Cuba.

在古巴是"Repentismo"，

In Peru, they call it the Peruvian Décima,

在秘鲁被称作“秘鲁Décima”。

because the Décima becomes so integrated into our traditions,

Décima与各地的传统文化 紧紧结合，

that if someone asks, people from each place are completely convinced

如果有人问到Décima的由来时 每个地方的人们都坚信

that the Décima was invented in their country.

Décima诞生于他们的国家。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

It's also got a really surprising feature,

它也有令人惊叹的特点。

which is that despite the fact that it developed independently

尽管它在各个国家

独立发展，

in each of the different countries,

it maintains even today, 400 years after its creation,

在诞生400年后的今天 Décima仍然保持着

exactly the same rhyme, syllable and line structure --

几乎一样的韵律、音节和结构。

the same structure Vicente Espinel gave it during the Spanish Baroque period.

与Vincent Espinel在 西班牙巴洛克时期

创造的结构毫无二致。

Here's the structure --

结构是这样的——

I'll give you the basic idea and then later you can look online

我会给你们大致的概念，

and learn more about it.

你们可以稍后上网查询， 了解更多，

The Décima is ten lines long; each line has eight syllables.

Décima有十行， 每一行有八个音节。

The first line rhymes with the fourth and the fifth;

第一、第四和第五行押韵，

the second line, with the third;

第二和第三行押韵，

the sixth line, with the seventh and the tenth;

第六、第七、第十行押韵。

and the eighth line rhymes with the ninth.

第八行和第九行押韵。

It's a bit complicated, to be honest.

坦白说这有些复杂。

And me -- imagine me, trying to write in Décimas.

想象下我试着写Décima。

But it's not as complicated as it seems.

但其实它没有看起来那么复杂。

Plus, it's amazing that it's survived with the same structure

另外，令人惊异的是， 这相同的结构

for more than four centuries.

存活了超过四个世纪。

It's not that complicated, because it has an impressive musicality to it,

它并不那么复杂，因为它有 令人印象深刻的音乐性，

a type of musicality

这种乐感

that's very hard to describe technically.

很难从技术层面上描述。

I prefer that you listen to it.

我更愿意让你们听一下。

So I'm going to recite a Décima,

所以我打算背诵一段Décima，

one of the Décimas that I wrote for this song.

它是我为这首歌写的一段。

I'm going to ask that you concentrate just on the musicality of the rhymes.

我想请你们专心听它的韵律感，

For those of you with headphones on --

带着耳机的各位——

I see that some of you are listening to the translation --

我知道你们是在听翻译，

please take them off for a minute.

但希望你们能摘下耳机片刻。

(English) Take your headphones off, it you have them.

（英语）戴耳机的各位， 请将它们取下。

(English) Forget about the meaning of the words for a few seconds,

（英语）请暂时不用在意词语的意思

(English) and then you'll put them back.

（英语）过会儿再戴上耳机。

(English) Forget about the structure.

（英语）请别管结构了，

(Spanish) Forget about the structure.

（西语）忘了结构。

(English) And just ... it's all about the choreography of sound of the Décima.

（英语）专注聆听Décima编排的韵味。

(Spanish) A choreography of sound.

（西语）韵味。

(Sings in Spanish) "There is not one death that does not cause me pain,

“没有一个离世不使我感到痛苦 生命中没有胜利者。

there are no winners,

这里除了苦难，别无其他 另一个生命悄然逝去。

here’s nothing but suffering and another life blown away.

War is a terrible school no matter what the disguise,

战争是所可怕的学校 不论它的任何伪装，

forgive me for not enlisting under any flag,

原谅我不站在 任何一个阵营旗下，

any daydream is worth more than a sad piece of cloth."

任何白日梦都比 那一片可悲的布更有价值。”

That's a Décima.

这就是Décima。

(English) You can put your headphones back on.

（英语）你们可以戴上耳机了。

(Applause)

（掌声）

(English) Thank you.

（英语）谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）

I also applaud Vicente Espinel, because here it is 426 years later,

我也很欣赏Vicente Espinel，

因为在426年后的今天，

and the Décima lives on everywhere

Décima原封不动地存留于各处。

in its original state.

我写了三首这样的段落 你们刚才听到的是第二段，

I wrote three like that one; you just heard the second.

I wrote the first one having only recently learned how,

我最近才学会怎样写 所以写的第一段

and it has some errors in terms of meter,

存在一些韵律错误

so it's not presentable in its current state.

所以以它现在的状态 无法被呈现。

But the one I sang was good, more or less.

至少我刚刚朗诵的是不错的。

So: What was it about?

所以：它说了什么？

What was the meaning behind those lines?

字里行间有什么意涵？

I had just returned from doing a concert in Israel,

我刚从以色列回来， 我在那儿办了一场音乐会。

and I was very emotional over a problem that hits really close to home,

有一个问题直击我内心深处，

which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

那就是巴以冲突。

I'll explain: my dad's family is Jewish,

我解释一下： 我爸爸的家庭都是犹太人

and my mom's family are non-practicing Christians.

但我妈妈的家人是名义上的基督徒， 他们不去教堂做礼拜。

I was raised in a home where the two traditions lived together

我成长于一个两种文化混合的家庭

more or less in harmony.

还挺和谐的。

It wasn't unusual to see my Jewish grandpa dressed as Santa Claus, for example,

我总能看到我的犹太裔祖父 穿着圣诞老人的衣服，

or to see my non-Jewish grandpa at the synagogue wearing his kippah,

或者我非犹太裔的外公 在犹太会堂里戴着犹太帽，

at family celebrations, wearing the same expression that I probably had

在家庭聚会上，

他的表情和 当Sabina告诉我——

when Sabina told me --

(Laughter)

（笑声）

that he had some Décima lines for me.

他写了几行Décima给我时 一模一样。

For someone raised in that kind of environment,

对于在这样环境中长大的人来说

it's especially painful to see the difficulty the opposing parties have

很痛苦地看着对立的双方

很难为对方考虑 哪怕一会儿而已。

in putting themselves in the other side's shoes even for a moment.

这就是我写的意思。

So that's what I wrote about.

I already had the lyrics,

我早写好了歌词，

I had the form -- the Décima -- and the content.

使用了Décima的格式和内容，

I needed to write the music.

但我还需要写配乐。

I'll give you some context.

让我给你一些情景，

I had only recently moved from Uruguay, where I'm from, to Spain.

我最近刚从我的家乡乌拉圭 搬到西班牙，

And I was feeling very raw with nostalgia,

我觉得自己特别念家，

like many of you here, who are away from home.

和你们中的大多数异乡人一样。

And I wanted my song to be very, very Uruguayan,

我希望我的歌曲能 特别有乌拉圭的味道

the most Uruguayan type of song there is -- the milonga.

最具乌拉圭风味的音乐 就是米隆加。

So now, I had been studying the Décima, and after finding out

当我学过Décima之后我发现，

that everyone tried to claim the Décima as their own,

每个人都声称Décima是

他们国家的诗，

that it was invented in their country,

我就想：

it made me wonder:

当我们说米隆加是乌拉圭的时候 代表了什么呢？

What does it mean when we say the milonga is Uruguayan?

米隆加的那种节拍 我们音乐家们称之为3-3-2。

The milonga has a rhythmic pattern that we musicians call 3-3-2.

(Counts out the beats) One two three, one two three, one two.

（打拍子）1 2 3 ， 1 2 3 ，1 2 。

And it has a characteristic emphasis.

它有明显的重点。

(Sings)

（唱歌）

But this characteristic rhythm pattern

但这种很有特色的节奏

comes from Africa.

起源于非洲。

In the ninth century you could find it in the brothels of Persia,

在第九世纪，你可以在波斯的妓院里 听见，

and in the thirteenth,

在十三世纪时，

in Spain, from where, five centuries later,

在西班牙听见， 五个世纪以后

它跟着非洲奴隶一起来到了美洲。

it would cross over to America with the African slaves.

Meanwhile, in the Balkans, it encounters the Roma scale --

同时在巴尔干半岛 它传遍了罗马的土地 ——

(Sings)

（唱歌）

which in part, gives birth to klezmer music,

这在一定程度上促进了 克莱兹默犹太音乐的诞生，

which Ukrainian Jewish immigrants bring to Brooklyn, New York.

由乌克兰的犹太移民带到了 纽约的布鲁克林。

They sing it in their banquet halls.

他们在宴会厅演唱

(Sings "Hava Nagila")

（唱犹太民歌“让我们欢乐"）

And their neighbor, an Argentine kid of Italian origin

而他们的邻居 一个意大利血统的阿根廷小孩

named Astor Piazzolla,

名叫阿斯托尔·皮亚佐拉

hears it,

听到这歌时

assimilates it

吸收了这种音乐的特点，

and transforms the tango of the second half of the 20th century

并改变了20世纪后期的探戈

with his ...

加上了他的

(Counts out the beats) One two three, one two three, one two.

（打拍子）123，123， 12。

(Sings "Adios Nonino")

（唱“再见父亲”）

He also played it on his bandoneon, a 19th-century German instrument

他用自己的手风琴演奏这种音乐， 这是一种19世纪德国乐器

created for churches that couldn't afford to buy organs,

专为那些购置不起 管风琴的教堂创造的。

and that ends up, incredibly, in Río de la Plata,

最后，令人难以置信的是 它流传至拉普拉塔河流域

forming the very essence of the tango and the milonga,

成为了探戈和米隆加的精粹，

in the very same way another instrument just as important as the bandoneon did:

它的传播方式与一种与手风琴 同样重要乐器一样，

the Spanish guitar.

那就是西班牙吉他。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

To which, by the way, Vicente Espinel, in the 16th century,

顺便提一下，在16世纪 Vicente Espinel

added a sixth string.

为西班牙吉他增加了第六根弦。

It's amazing how all these things are coming full circle.

让人惊奇的是， 一切都形成了个完整的循环。

What have I learned in these 15 years since the song was born

在过去15年里，我带着这首

from going all over the world with four lines written on a coaster

在马德里的一家酒吧的杯垫上写的歌

from a bar in Madrid?

唱遍世界，我感受到了什么？

That Décimas,

Décimas，

the milonga,

米隆加

songs, people --

歌曲，人们：

the closer you get to them,

你越接近他们，

the more complex their identity becomes,

他们的身份越复杂，

and the more nuances and details appear.

你就会发现越多的细节。

I learned that identity is infinitely dense,

我发现身份是无穷无尽的，

like an infinite series of real numbers,

就像实数有无限多个，

and that even if you get very close

甚至你无限逼近的时候，

放大一看，

and zoom in,

它却永无止境。

it never ends.

Before I sing you a song and say goodbye,

在我以一首歌和大家说再见之前，

allow me to tell you one last story.

请允许我说最后一个故事。

Not long ago, we were in Mexico after a concert.

不久前，我在墨西哥 音乐会结束后，

And since the concert promoters know me,

因为创办人认识我，

they knew I was a Décima freak and that everywhere I go I ask about it,

他们知道我是Décima忠粉， 我无论去哪都在打听着它

尽一切可能打听关于 Décima艺术家的事，

insisting on hearing Décima artists.

So they organized a son jarocho show for me at their house.

所以他们在家 为我组织了一场夏洛楚颂乐表演。

If you recall, the son jarocho is one of the styles of music

你还记得的话 夏洛楚颂乐是音乐的一种，

that uses Décimas in its verses.

它在词中使用了Décima。

When these amazing musicians finished playing

这些伟大的音乐家结束演奏

what is for me, something amazing, which is the son jarocho,

这场惊人的夏洛楚颂乐表演，

他们演奏结束以后

they finished playing and were ...

I went up to greet them, really excited,

我激动地走过去和他们打招呼，

getting ready to thank them for their gift of music,

准备感谢他们音乐的天赋，

and this young kid says to me --

有个很小的孩子和我说——

and he says it with the best of intentions -- he says,

完全出于好意 他说，

“先生，我们很骄傲能够

"We're very proud, sir, to be keeping alive the purest origins

将我们的最纯粹的墨西哥文化起源 保留下来。”

of our Mexican identity."

And to tell you the truth, I didn't really know what to say.

老实说，我不知道该说什么。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I stood there looking at him. I gave him a hug and left, but ...

我看了看他，拥抱了他， 然后离开了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But he was right, too, though. Right?

不过，他也是对的，对吧？

In reality, the Décima is its origin, but at the same time,

现实中，Décima是它的源头， 但同时

just like in the milonga and in the Décima,

就像米隆加一样，

Décima是全球各地很多种文化的起源 就像他说的一样。

are the roots of many more cultures from all over the place, like he said.

Later, when I got back to the hotel, I thought about it for a while.

后来我返回酒店时 我深深思考了这件事。

And I thought:

我想，

things only look pure

只有当你从很远处观察时，

if you look at them from far away.

事情才会看起来很纯粹简单。

It's very important to know about our roots,

知道我们的根是很重要的，

to know where we come from, to understand our history.

知道我们的出生地， 了解我们的文化

But at the same time, as important as knowing where we're from,

但同时，和知晓出生地同等重要的

is understanding that deep down,

是我们内心深处能够明白

we're not completely from one place,

我们不属于任何一个地方，

and a little from everywhere.

而也来自于每个地方。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

This is "The milonga of the Jewish Moor."

这是“犹太摩尔人的米隆加”。

(Music)

（音乐）

(Sings)

（唱歌）

For every wall a lament in Jerusalem the golden

在金色的耶路撒冷， 悲伤环绕着每一堵墙，

and 1000 wasted lives for every commandment.

每条戒律的背后 都是百条牺牲的生命。

I am dust in your wind and although I bleed through your wound,

我是你风中的微尘 尽管我从你的伤口上流血，

and every beloved stone has my deepest affection,

每一块代表爱的石头 都蕴藏着我最浓烈的深情，

there is not a stone in the world worth more than a human life.

世界上没有一块石头 比人的生命更有价值。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是生活在基督徒中的 一个犹太摩尔人，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

There is not one death that does not cause me pain, there are no winners

没有一个离世不使我感到痛苦， 生命中没有胜利者。

there's nothing but suffering and another life blown away.

这里除了苦难，别无其他， 另一个生命正悄然逝去。

War is a terrible school no matter what the disguise,

战争是所可怕的学校 不管它的伪装是什么。

forgive me for not enlisting under any flag,

原谅我不站在 任何一个阵营旗下，

any daydream is worth more than a sad piece of cloth.

何况白日梦也比 那一片可悲的布更有价值。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是生活在基督徒中的 一个犹太摩尔人，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁， 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

And nobody has my permission for killing in my name,

没人能够得到我的允许 以我的名义去杀戮，

a man is but a man and if there is a God, this was his wish,

人不过只是人本身， 如果上帝真的存在，这会是他的期愿，

the very ground I tread will live on, once I am gone

脚下的土地依旧存在， 一旦我离开

on my way to oblivion, and all doctrines will suffer the same fate,

前往遗忘之路， 所有的信条将遭受同样的命运。

and there is not one nation that has not proclaimed itself

所有民族都声称

它是上帝选中的子民。

the chosen people.

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是生活在基督徒中的 一个犹太摩尔人。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道上帝是谁 也不知道我的兄弟是谁。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是生活在基督徒中的 一个犹太摩尔人。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）