Poetry, music and identity (with English subtitles) | Jorge Drexler | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

I'm going to tell you the story of a song.

我要告訴各位一首歌的故事。

I was in Madrid one night in 2002

2002 年的某個晚上， 我在馬德里，

with my teacher and friend Joaquín Sabina,

和我的老師兼朋友 瓦金沙賓納在一起，

when he said he had something to give me.

他說他有東西要給我。

He said,

他說：

"Jorge, I have some lines that you need to put into a song.

「荷黑，我有一些句子， 你得把它們放到歌曲中，

Take these down, take these down."

把這些寫下來，把這些寫下來。」

I looked on the table but all I found was a circular coaster,

我看向桌面，只能 找到一個圓茶杯墊，

on which I wrote the lines my teacher dictated.

於是我把我老師 口述的句子寫在上面。

They were four lines that went like this:

一共有四句，如下：

"I am a Jewish Moor living among Christians

「我是個猶太回教徒， 居住在基督徒當中，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are."

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。」

Those lines really made an impression on me.

這些句子真的讓我印象深刻。

I said, "What beautiful lyrics, Joaquín. Did you write them?"

我說：「好美的歌詞， 瓦金，是你寫的嗎？」

He said no, they were by another composer named Chicho Sánchez Ferlosio,

他說不是，是另一位作曲家 奇裘山切斯佛羅西歐所寫。

who was less known than Joaquín, but also a great poet.

他的名氣不如瓦金， 但也是個偉大的詩人。

These lines came to me at a time

我得到這些句子時，

where I had been wanting to express something for a while,

我剛好一直想要表達某樣東西，

but didn't quite know how.

但不知道該怎麼表達。

I was getting up to leave and go home to write,

我準備起身離開，回家去寫詞，

when Joaquín stopped me and said, "Hang on, hang on,"

這時瓦金阻止了我， 說：「等等，等等。」

and presented me with this challenge:

他給了我這個挑戰：

"Write the stanzas for this song

「用 Décimas （十行詩）

來為這首歌寫這些詩句。」

in Décimas."

Now, at this point in my life,

在我人生的這個時點，

I still wasn't completely sure what Décimas were,

我還不太確定 Décimas 是什麼，

but I was too embarrassed to tell my teacher I didn't know.

但我無法拉下臉來 告訴老師我不知道。

So I put on my best "Yeah, I totally understand" face,

所以我擺出了「是， 我完全了解」的表情，

and went home to look up what Décimas were.

然後回家去查 Décimas 是什麼。

I learned that a Décima is a type of verse

我學到，Décimas 是一種詩，

that only exists in Spanish,

只有西班牙語才有。

and that it has 10 lines.

這種詩共有十行。

It's very, very complex --

它非常非常複雜，

perhaps the most complex style of stanza that we have in Spanish.

可能是西班牙文中最複雜的一種詩。

It also has a very concrete date of origin,

它也有非常明確的起源日，

which is very rare for a style of stanza.

對於詩的種類而言，這點很難得。

The Décima was invented in Spain in 1591,

Décimas 是 1591 年 在西班牙發明的，

by a guy named Vicente Espinel, a musician and poet from Málaga.

發明者叫文森提伊斯皮奈爾， 他是馬拉加的音樂家兼詩人。

And listen to this coincidence: he was the same guy

聽聽這個巧合：他同時也是

who added the sixth string

將六條弦加到

to what would later be called the Spanish guitar.

後來我們稱為西班牙吉他上的人。

This string right here --

就是這裡的弦──

it's called the "bordona."

它叫做「bordona」 （註：即六弦的意思）

From Spain, the Décima, with its 10 lines,

十行的 Décima 從西班牙

crosses over to America, just like the Spanish guitar,

傳到了美洲，就像西班牙吉他那樣，

but in contrast to the Décima,

但和 Décima 很不同的是，

the Spanish guitar continues to live today

西班牙吉他

至今仍然存在於大西洋的兩岸。

on both sides of the Atlantic.

But the Décima, in Spain, its birthplace,

但 Décima 在它的出生地西班牙

disappeared; it died out.

卻消失了，絕跡了。

It died out about 200 years ago,

它大約是在兩百年前絕跡的。

and yet in Latin America, from Mexico to Chile,

但在南美，從墨西哥到智利，

all our countries maintain some form of the Décima

我們所有的國家，都在大眾傳統中

保有某種形式的 Décima。

in our popular traditions.

In each place, they've given it a different name,

在每個地方，它都有不同的名稱，

and set it to different music.

被用在不同的音樂上。

It has a lot of different names -- more than 20 in total on the continent.

它有許多不同的名稱，在這塊 大陸上就有總共超過 20 種。

In Mexico, for example, it's called the "Son Jarocho,"

比如，在墨西哥，它叫做 「Son Jarocho」夏洛楚頌樂；

"Canto de mejorana" in Panama;

在巴拿馬，叫做 「Canto de mejorana」；

"Galerón" in Venezuela;

在委內瑞拉，叫做「Galerón」；

"Payada" in Uruguay and Argentina;

在烏拉圭及阿根廷， 叫做「Payada」；

"Repentismo" in Cuba.

在古巴，叫做「Repentismo」；

In Peru, they call it the Peruvian Décima,

在秘魯，它被稱為 「秘魯 Décima」，

because the Décima becomes so integrated into our traditions,

因為 Décima 與 我們的傳統深深結合，

that if someone asks, people from each place are completely convinced

如果被問起，每個地方的人都深信

that the Décima was invented in their country.

Décima 是他們的國家發明的。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

It's also got a really surprising feature,

它也有個非常讓人驚奇的特色，

which is that despite the fact that it developed independently

就是

儘管各自獨立發展於不同的國家中，

in each of the different countries,

是的，

it maintains even today, 400 years after its creation,

即使創造於 400 年前，

它現今仍然維持著

exactly the same rhyme, syllable and line structure --

完全相同的節奏音節以及詩句結構，

the same structure Vicente Espinel gave it during the Spanish Baroque period.

和西班牙巴洛克時期時

文森提伊斯皮奈爾賦予它的一樣。

Here's the structure --

它的結構是，

I'll give you the basic idea and then later you can look online

我會給各位基本概念，

之後你們可以上網找資料，

and learn more about it.

進一步了解它。

The Décima is ten lines long; each line has eight syllables.

Décima 的長度是十行，

每行有八個音節。

The first line rhymes with the fourth and the fifth;

第一、第四及第五行押韻；

the second line, with the third;

第二行和第三行押韻；

the sixth line, with the seventh and the tenth;

第六、第七及第十行押韻；

and the eighth line rhymes with the ninth.

第八行和第九行押韻。

It's a bit complicated, to be honest.

坦白說，這有點複雜。

And me -- imagine me, trying to write in Décimas.

而我──想像一下 我試著寫 Décimas。

But it's not as complicated as it seems.

但它沒有看起來的那麼複雜。

Plus, it's amazing that it's survived with the same structure

此外，很驚人的是， 它帶著同樣的結構，

for more than four centuries.

存活了超過四個世紀。

It's not that complicated, because it has an impressive musicality to it,

它沒有那麼複雜，是因為它有 讓人印象深刻的音樂性，

a type of musicality

這種音樂性

that's very hard to describe technically.

在技術面是非常難描述的。

I prefer that you listen to it.

我比較希望你們能用聽的。

So I'm going to recite a Décima,

所以我要誦讀一首 Décima，

one of the Décimas that I wrote for this song.

它是我為這首歌 所寫的 Décima 之一。

I'm going to ask that you concentrate just on the musicality of the rhymes.

我想請各位專注在押韻的音樂性上。

For those of you with headphones on --

各位戴著耳機的人──

I see that some of you are listening to the translation --

我看見在座有些人在聽翻譯──

please take them off for a minute.

請把耳機拿下來一下子。

(English) Take your headphones off, it you have them.

（英文）有戴耳機的人， 請把耳機取下。

(English) Forget about the meaning of the words for a few seconds,

（英文）暫時把字詞的意義忘記，

(English) and then you'll put them back.

（英文）等一下再戴上耳機。

(English) Forget about the structure.

（英文）先忘掉結構。

(Spanish) Forget about the structure.

（西班牙文）先忘掉結構。

(English) And just ... it's all about the choreography of sound of the Décima.

（英文）重點是 Décima 中的聲音編排。

(Spanish) A choreography of sound.

（西班牙文）聲音的編排。

(Sings in Spanish) "There is not one death that does not cause me pain,

（以西班牙文唱） 「沒有一個死亡不會造成我的痛苦，

there are no winners,

沒有贏家，

here’s nothing but suffering and another life blown away.

這裡什麼都沒有，只有苦難 及另一個生命逝去。

War is a terrible school no matter what the disguise,

戰爭是很差勁的學校， 不論它的偽裝是什麼，

forgive me for not enlisting under any flag,

原諒我沒有加入 任何一面旗幟的軍隊，

any daydream is worth more than a sad piece of cloth."

任何白日夢都比一片 悲傷的布要來得有價值。」

That's a Décima.

這就是 Décima。

(English) You can put your headphones back on.

（英文）你們可以把耳機戴上了。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

(English) Thank you.

（英文）謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

I also applaud Vicente Espinel, because here it is 426 years later,

我也得向文森提伊斯皮奈爾致意，

因為 426 年後 Décima 無所不在，

and the Décima lives on everywhere

in its original state.

且保有原始形態。

I wrote three like that one; you just heard the second.

我寫了三首類似的， 你們剛聽到的是第二首。

I wrote the first one having only recently learned how,

我最近才學會如何寫， 所以寫的第一首

and it has some errors in terms of meter,

有一些錯誤，韻律上的錯誤，

so it's not presentable in its current state.

所以它目前的狀況不太適合呈現。

But the one I sang was good, more or less.

但我剛唱的那首大體上還不錯。

So: What was it about?

所以，它是關於什麼的？

What was the meaning behind those lines?

那些句子背後的意思是什麼？

I had just returned from doing a concert in Israel,

我才剛在以色列做了一場音樂會，

and I was very emotional over a problem that hits really close to home,

對於一個發生在離家鄉 非常近的問題，我十分情緒化，

which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

就是以色列與巴基斯坦的衝突。

I'll explain: my dad's family is Jewish,

我會解釋：我父親的家庭是猶太人，

and my mom's family are non-practicing Christians.

我母親的家庭是掛名基督徒。 （註：名義上為基督徒但沒去教堂）

I was raised in a home where the two traditions lived together

我成長的家庭中有兩種傳統共存，

more or less in harmony.

或多或少算是和平共存。

It wasn't unusual to see my Jewish grandpa dressed as Santa Claus, for example,

比如，可以看到 我的猶太爺爺扮成聖誕老人，

or to see my non-Jewish grandpa at the synagogue wearing his kippah,

或是非猶太的外公 戴著猶太帽去猶太會堂，

at family celebrations, wearing the same expression that I probably had

參加家庭慶祝活動， 表情應該就像當沙賓納告訴我

when Sabina told me --

他有 Décima 詩句

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

that he had some Décima lines for me.

要給我那時我的表情。

For someone raised in that kind of environment,

對於在這種環境長大的人而言，

it's especially painful to see the difficulty the opposing parties have

看到對立的兩方很艱難地試著

in putting themselves in the other side's shoes even for a moment.

站在另一方的立場，是很痛苦的。

So that's what I wrote about.

所以那就是我寫的。

I already had the lyrics,

我已經有歌詞了，

I had the form -- the Décima -- and the content.

我有形式了，即 Décima， 也有內容了，

I needed to write the music.

我需要的是寫音樂。

I'll give you some context.

讓我告訴大家來龍去脈。

I had only recently moved from Uruguay, where I'm from, to Spain.

我最近才從家鄉烏拉圭搬到西班牙。

And I was feeling very raw with nostalgia,

我感受到鄉愁之苦，

like many of you here, who are away from home.

跟許多這裡遠離家鄉的人一樣。

And I wanted my song to be very, very Uruguayan,

我希望我的歌曲 能夠非常有烏拉圭味，

the most Uruguayan type of song there is -- the milonga.

世上最有烏拉圭味的 歌曲類型：米隆加。

So now, I had been studying the Décima, and after finding out

所以，我一直在研究 Décima，

that everyone tried to claim the Décima as their own,

發現每個人都聲稱 Décima 是他們自己的，

that it was invented in their country,

是在他們的國家發明的。

it made me wonder:

那讓我忍不住想：

What does it mean when we say the milonga is Uruguayan?

我們說米隆加很有 烏拉圭味，是什麼意思？

The milonga has a rhythmic pattern that we musicians call 3-3-2.

我們音樂家稱米隆加的 節奏模式為 3-3-2。

(Counts out the beats) One two three, one two three, one two.

（數拍子）一二三、一二三、一二。

And it has a characteristic emphasis.

它有個獨有的重音。

(Sings)

（唱）

But this characteristic rhythm pattern

但這個獨有的節拍模式

comes from Africa.

來自非洲。

In the ninth century you could find it in the brothels of Persia,

在第九世紀，可以在 波斯的妓院找到它；

and in the thirteenth,

在第十三世紀，

in Spain, from where, five centuries later,

可在西班牙找到， 又過了五個世紀之後，

it would cross over to America with the African slaves.

非洲奴隸將它從西班牙傳到美洲。

Meanwhile, in the Balkans, it encounters the Roma scale --

這期間，在巴爾幹半島， 它遇到了羅馬音階，

(Sings)

（唱）

which in part, gives birth to klezmer music,

羅馬音階某種程度上孕育了 猶太克列茲莫音樂，

which Ukrainian Jewish immigrants bring to Brooklyn, New York.

克列茲莫音樂被烏克蘭猶太移民 帶到紐約布魯克林。

They sing it in their banquet halls.

他們會在他們的宴會廳中演唱。

(Sings "Hava Nagila")

（唱「Hava Nagila」 《讓我們歡樂》）

And their neighbor, an Argentine kid of Italian origin

他們的鄰居，一個 義大利血統的阿根廷孩子，

named Astor Piazzolla,

叫做阿斯托爾·皮亞佐拉，

hears it,

聽見了這音樂，

assimilates it

吸收了它，

and transforms the tango of the second half of the 20th century

將二十世紀後半的探戈做轉化，

with his ...

加上了他的

(Counts out the beats) One two three, one two three, one two.

（數拍子）一二三、一二三、一二。

(Sings "Adios Nonino")

（唱「Adios Nonino」 《永別了，親愛的父親》）

He also played it on his bandoneon, a 19th-century German instrument

他也用他的班多鈕手風琴來演奏， 那是種十九世紀的德國樂器，

created for churches that couldn't afford to buy organs,

為了買不起管風琴的教堂發明的。

and that ends up, incredibly, in Río de la Plata,

神奇的是，它最後傳到拉布拉他河，

forming the very essence of the tango and the milonga,

形成了探戈和米隆加的精華，

in the very same way another instrument just as important as the bandoneon did:

其方式就如同另一個與班多鈕 手風琴一樣重要的樂器：

the Spanish guitar.

西班牙吉他。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

To which, by the way, Vicente Espinel, in the 16th century,

順便一提，在十六世紀， 文森提伊斯皮奈爾

added a sixth string.

為它加上了六條弦。

It's amazing how all these things are coming full circle.

這一切轉了一個圈， 又回到原點，很不可思議。

What have I learned in these 15 years since the song was born

從十五年前這首歌誕生之後，

from going all over the world with four lines written on a coaster

我帶著馬德里酒吧杯墊上 寫的四行句子行遍世界，

from a bar in Madrid?

學到了什麼？

That Décimas,

我學到：Décimas、

the milonga,

米隆加、

songs, people --

歌曲、人；

the closer you get to them,

你越接近他們，

the more complex their identity becomes,

他們的身份就變得越複雜，

and the more nuances and details appear.

更多的細微差別和細節會浮現。

I learned that identity is infinitely dense,

我學到：身份是無盡密集的，

like an infinite series of real numbers,

就像無盡的實數序列，

and that even if you get very close

即使你靠得非常近，

and zoom in,

並且放大看，

it never ends.

它也永遠沒盡頭。

Before I sing you a song and say goodbye,

在我為各位唱一首歌並說再會之前，

allow me to tell you one last story.

容我再說最後一個故事。

Not long ago, we were in Mexico after a concert.

不久前，我們在墨西哥， 一場音樂會剛結束。

And since the concert promoters know me,

因為音樂會的籌辦人認識我，

they knew I was a Décima freak and that everywhere I go I ask about it,

他們知道我是個 Décima 怪胎， 且我去任何地方都會問相關的事，

insisting on hearing Décima artists.

堅持一定要聽到 Décima 藝術家表演，

So they organized a son jarocho show for me at their house.

所以他們為我在他們家中 安排了一個夏洛楚頌樂節目。

If you recall, the son jarocho is one of the styles of music

如果你們記得，夏洛楚頌樂 是在詩句中用到 Décimas 的

that uses Décimas in its verses.

音樂類型之一。

When these amazing musicians finished playing

當這些出色音樂家結束了 這場對我來說

what is for me, something amazing, which is the son jarocho,

很不可思議的 夏洛楚頌樂表演之後，

they finished playing and were ...

他們結束表演，

I went up to greet them, really excited,

我上前去問候他們，非常興奮，

getting ready to thank them for their gift of music,

準備要感謝他們 有這麼棒的音樂天賦，

and this young kid says to me --

有個年輕孩子對我說，

and he says it with the best of intentions -- he says,

是帶著最大的善意說的，他說：

"We're very proud, sir, to be keeping alive the purest origins

「先生，我們非常驕傲，能夠讓 我們墨西哥身份最純正的源頭

of our Mexican identity."

繼續活下去。」

And to tell you the truth, I didn't really know what to say.

老實說，我真的不知道該說什麼。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I stood there looking at him. I gave him a hug and left, but ...

我站在那看著他，給他一個 擁抱，然後離開，但……

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But he was right, too, though. Right?

不過，他也是對的，是吧？

In reality, the Décima is its origin, but at the same time,

在現實中，Décima 是它的源頭，但同時，

just like in the milonga and in the Décima,

就像在米隆加和 在 Décima 中一樣，

are the roots of many more cultures from all over the place, like he said.

有著來自各地許多文化的根， 就像他說的那樣。

Later, when I got back to the hotel, I thought about it for a while.

之後，我回到飯店，想了一下此事。

And I thought:

我心想：

things only look pure

只有當你從遠處看時，

if you look at them from far away.

事物才會顯得很純正。

It's very important to know about our roots,

了解我們的根，是很重要的，

to know where we come from, to understand our history.

了解我們從哪裡來， 了解我們的歷史。

But at the same time, as important as knowing where we're from,

但同時，與知道我們 從何而來同等重要的

is understanding that deep down,

是要了解，實際上，

we're not completely from one place,

我們都沒有完全來自哪裡，

and a little from everywhere.

每一小部份都來自不同地方。

Thank you very much.

非常謝謝各位。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

This is "The milonga of the Jewish Moor."

這是「猶太回教徒的米隆加」。

(Music)

（音樂）

(Sings)

（唱）

For every wall a lament in Jerusalem the golden

每一面牆，就是 金色耶路撒冷的一首輓歌，

and 1000 wasted lives for every commandment.

每一道命令，就是 100 條生命被浪費。

I am dust in your wind and although I bleed through your wound,

我是你風中的塵土， 雖然我透過你的傷口流血，

and every beloved stone has my deepest affection,

每一塊摯愛的石頭都有我最深的情，

there is not a stone in the world worth more than a human life.

世界上沒有一塊石頭， 比一條人命更值錢。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是個猶太回教徒， 居住在基督徒當中，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

There is not one death that does not cause me pain, there are no winners

沒有一個死亡不會造成 我的痛苦，沒有贏家，

there's nothing but suffering and another life blown away.

這裡什麼都沒有，只有苦難 及另一個生命逝去。

War is a terrible school no matter what the disguise,

戰爭是很差勁的學校， 不論它的偽裝是什麼，

forgive me for not enlisting under any flag,

原諒我沒有加入 任何一面旗幟的軍隊，

any daydream is worth more than a sad piece of cloth.

任何白日夢都比一片 悲傷的布要來得有價值。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是個猶太回教徒， 居住在基督徒當中，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

And nobody has my permission for killing in my name,

沒有人有我的允許 可以以我之名來殺戮，

a man is but a man and if there is a God, this was his wish,

人不過就是人，如果有神存在， 這會是他的願望，

the very ground I tread will live on, once I am gone

我踩踏過的地， 會繼續存在，一旦我走了，

on my way to oblivion, and all doctrines will suffer the same fate,

走上被遺忘之路， 所有信條會遭受同樣的命運，

and there is not one nation that has not proclaimed itself

沒有一個民族沒有聲明過它就是

the chosen people.

神的選民。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是個猶太回教徒， 居住在基督徒當中，

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

I don't know who my God is, nor who my brothers are.

我不知道我的神是誰， 也不知道我的兄弟是誰。

I am a Jewish Moor who lives among Christians

我是個猶太回教徒， 居住在基督徒當中，

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Thank you.

謝謝各位。

(Applause)

（掌聲）