The Marvels and Mysteries Revealed by the James Webb Space Telescope | Heidi Hammel and Nadia Drake

Prevodilac: Marija Krsmanovic Lektor: Milenka Okuka

Nadia Drake: Well, I do want to ask you

Nadia Drejk: Pa, hoću da vas pitam

about the sharpest new shiny space telescope in the shed

o novom oštrom, sjajnom svemirskom teleskopu,

which happens to be here,

koji je inače ovde,

the James Webb Space Telescope,

o Svemirskom teleskopu Džejms Veb,

or JWST.

ili JWST.

Heidi Hammel: We already knew back then in the late 80s, 1990s,

Hajdi Hamel: Već smo znali u kasnim 80-im, 1990-im

that the universe was expanding.

da se svemir širi.

And we knew that to see the very first galaxies

I znali smo da, da bismo videli prve galaksije,

and maybe even the first stars that ever formed in the universe --

a možda čak i prve zvezde koje su se formirale u svemiru...

Because of the expansion of the universe,

Zbog širenja svemira,

the light from those galaxies is likewise expanded,

svetlost iz tih galaksija se takođe širi

and it's shifted from blue wavelengths to longer wavelengths, red wavelengths.

i pomera se iz plavih talasnih dužina u duže, crvene talasne dužine.

And so the concept then for the next generation space telescope

I zbog toga je koncept nove generacije svemirskog teleskopa

was to build an advanced telescope

bio napraviti napredan teleskop

that really focused on the infrared part of the spectrum,

koji je veoma fokusiran na infracrveni deo spektra,

because that's where we could see the first stars and the first galaxies.

zato što bismo tu mogli da vidimo prve zvezde i prve galaksije.

I knew that this telescope that was being built to find it,

Znala sam da taj teleskop koji je pravljen da ih nađe,

to probe the light from the first galaxies,

da istraži svetlost prvih galaksija,

would also be a fabulous tool to study Neptune and Uranus.

bi takođe mogao da bude sjajno sredstvo za istraživanje Neptuna i Urana.

I mean, I just knew that because I knew it would be big enough.

Mislim, znala sam to zato što sam znala da će biti dovoljno veliki.

I knew that because it was a space telescope,

Znala sam da, pošto je to svemirski teleskop,

the images would be stable and pristine.

slike će biti stabilne i jasne.

And I knew that these wavelengths of light in the infrared

I znala sam da će te talasne dužine svetlosti u infracrvenom spektru

had all sorts of interesting molecular signatures

imati razne zanimljive molekularne potpise

so that we could learn

iz kojih možemo da naučimo

about the upper atmospheres of these planets.

o gornjim atmosferama tih planeta.

And so I’m like, “I’m in. I’ll do this.”

I pomislila sam: “Ja sam za. Ja ću to da uradim.”

So in 2002, I wrote a proposal saying

I tako, 2002. godine sam napisala prijavu koja kaže

I would like to be an interdisciplinary scientist for this program

da bih volela da budem interdisciplinarni naučnik u ovom programu

to ensure that this telescope will be able to do solar system observations

kako bih se pobrinula da će ovaj teleskop moći da uradi posmatranja sunčevog sistema

when it is launched.

kada bude lansiran.

And in 2003, my proposal was accepted,

Godine 2003. je moja prijava prihvaćena

and that was how I formally became involved in this telescope.

i tako sam zvanično uključena u rad na teleskopu.

So Webb --

Veb teleskop

It's different than Hubble.

je drugačiji od Habla.

It's a different kind of telescope for a number of reasons.

Drugačiji je iz mnogo razloga.

One is it's a lot bigger than Hubble.

Jedan razlog je da je mnogo veći od Habla.

It’s a six-and-a-half-meter mirror -- the golden mirror, the collecting area --

U pitanju je ogledalo od 6,5 metara, to je površina zlatnog ogledala,

versus Hubble's two point four.

u poređenju sa Hablovim od 2,4.

ND: It’s so big that it couldn’t be launched looking like that.

ND: Toliko je veliki da nije bilo moguće lansirati ga takvog.

It had to be all folded up.

Morao je da bude sklopljen.

HH: That’s right. It had to be folded up.

HH: Tako je. Morao je da bude sklopljen.

And that's why the mirror is segments.

I zato je ogledalo sačinjeno iz segmenata.

ND: Yeah. HH: So that it could be folded up.

ND: Da. HH: Da bi mogao da se sklopi.

ND: Like a honeycomb. HH: Like a honeycomb, exactly.

ND: Kao saće. HH: Kao saće, upravo tako.

ND: But then it had to unfold in space.

ND: Ali onda je morao da se rasklopi u svemiru.

And I remember how nervous people were about this process

I sećam se koliko su ljudi bili nervozni zbog ovog procesa,

because it really was something

zato što je to nešto

that everything, every single step had to go right.

u čemu je sve, svaki korak je morao dobro da prođe.

HH: Not only did the telescope have to fold up,

HH: Teleskop je morao ne samo da se sklopi,

but we -- if you look at Webb,

nego mi - ako pogledate Veb,

it's got this huge contraption underneath it,

on ima ogromnu napravu ispod njega,

which we call a sunshield.

koju zovemo sunčani štit.

And that's crucial for this telescope.

I to je bilo ključno za ovaj teleskop.

ND: How did you feel as you were witnessing the deployment sequence?

ND: Kako ste se osećali dok ste posmatrali proces resklapanja?

HH: I sure was nervous, just like everybody else.

HH: Definitivno sam bila nervozna, kao i svi ostali.

Biilo je nekoliko momenata u kojima je sve moglo da pođe naopako.

There were several single point failures

where if that thing didn't unbolt or unfold,

Da se jedna stvar nije odšrafila ili rasklopila,

we didn't have a working telescope anymore.

ne bismo imali teleskop sposoban za rad.

So it was extremely nerve-racking.

Tako da je bilo jako stresno,

But we had many years of testing

ali testirali smo ovo godinama

because we knew that there was no fixing this telescope.

zato što smo znali da nije moguće popraviti teleskop.

This telescope's not in low earth orbit like Hubble.

Ovaj teleskop nije u niskoj orbiti oko Zemlje kao Habl.

The James Webb Space Telescope is a million miles away

Svemirski teleskop Džejms Veb je oko milion i po kilometara daleko

at a point called the L2 Point,

na tački koja se zove L2 tačka

and it was put out there deliberately because it needed to be cold.

i namerno je tamo postavljen zat što je morao da bude na hladnom.

It needed to have the sunshield to protect the telescope

Morao je da ima sunčani štit da zaštiti teleskop

from the warmth of the Sun, the warmth of the Earth

od toplote Sunca i toplote Zemlje,

and even the warmth of our Moon.

pa čak i od toplote našeg Meseca.

So the sunshield is designed to be like an umbrella that protects it,

Sunčani štit je napravljen da bude kao suncobran koji ga štiti,

a sun umbrella that keeps that telescope super cold.

suncobran koji održava teleskop hladnim.

Nismo mogli da ga postavimo u nisku orbitu oko Zemlje

So we couldn't put it in low earth orbit

because it's just too warm in that environment.

zato što je tu previše toplo.

You can't sense infrared light when it's hot.

Ne može da detektuje infracrveno svetlo kada je vruće.

You have to have it cold.

Mora da bude na hladnom.

By the way, that's also why this telescope

Uzgred, zbog toga je ovaj teleskop

is completely exposed to the elements of space.

potpuno izložen elementima iz svemira.

Most other telescopes have tubes that enclose them,

Mnogi drugi teleskopi imaju cevi oko njih,

and this one doesn't.

ali ovaj nema.

The mirrors are just sitting out there. ND: They're just out there.

Ogledala su izložena. ND: Izložena su.

HH: They're just sitting out there.

HH: Izložena su.

ND: So the first deep field from JWST,

ND: Prvo duboko polje Svemirskog teleskopa Džejms Veb,

I think the analogy I heard was that the image itself

mislim da sam čula analogiju da sama slika

covers about the amount of space

pokriva površinu svemira

as a grain of rice on a fingertip held at arm's length.

kao zrno pirinča na vrhu prsta na ispruženoj ruci.

Is that right?

Da li je to tačno?

HH: I heard a grain of sand, not a grain of rice.

HH: Čula sam da je zrno peska, ne zrno pirinča,

But it's the same concept, you know, that -- yeah.

ali koncept je isti, znate, da - da.

If you -- the piece of sky you see in that picture,

Parče neba koje vidite na toj slici,

if you were like standing in your backyard and looking up in the sky,

ako biste stajali u svom dvorištu i gledali u nebo,

that piece of sky is about the same size as a tiny grain of sand.

to parče neba bi bilo iste veličine kao malo zrno peska.

If you moved your grain of sand over to the left,

Ako biste pomerili zrno peska ulevo,

you would see more galaxies,

videli biste više galaksija

and over to the left again, more galaxies.

i još više ulevo, više galaksija.

And anywhere you looked in the sky, it is filled with galaxies.

I gde god pogledate u nebo, puno je galaksija.

ND: Just thousands and thousands in that one image alone.

ND: Hiljade i hiljade na samo jednoj slici.

HH: Exactly. What I'm waiting for

HH: Upravo tako. Ono što čekam

is the James Webb Space Telescope Deep Field,

je duboko polje Svemirskog teleskopa Džejms Veb,

where we stare for days at a dark spot that we don't know where anything is.

gde danima posmatramo jednu tamnu tačku gde ne znamo gde se šta nalazi.

What are we going to see?

Šta ćemo videti?

And then, think about that, going to be all over the whole sky.

I onda, pomislite, to će biti po celom nebu.

Our universe is going to mentally expand

Naš univerzum će se proširiti u našem umu

at that moment when we get that deep field from James Webb Space Telescope.

u trenutku kada dobijemo duboko polje Svemirskog teleskopa Džejms Veb.

It's going to be mind-blowing.

To će biti neverovatno.

ND: I just think about it.

ND: Upravo razmišljam o tome.

Peering so far back in time

Gledati tako daleko nazad kroz vreme

to the beginning of the primordial cosmic murk.

do početka prvobitnog kosmičkog mraka.

HH: Yeah.

HH: Da.

ND: When stars and galaxies are just starting to turn on

ND: Kada su zvezde i galaksije tek počinjale da se pale

and how different the universe was

i kako je univerzum bio drugačiji

and the fact that we humans on this one little planet Earth

i činjenica da ljudi na ovoj maloj planeti Zemlji

can craft an instrument that has the capability

mogu da naprave instrument koji može

to let us see that, 13.5 billion years ago,

da nam omogući da to vidimo, pre 13,5 milijardi godina,

or whatever it ends up being,

ili koliko već bude,

is really phenomenal.

je stvarno fenomenalno.

HH: Yeah.

HH: Da.

I view it as an example of what humanity can do

Ja to vidim kao primer onoga što čovečansto može da uradi

when we work for the greater good,

kada radimo za veće dobro,

when we work as teams and we have a goal.

kada radimo kao tim i kada imamo cilj.

This project required thousands of people in multiple countries,

Ovaj projekat je zahtevao hiljade ljudi u više zemalja,

multiple states,

više država,

to take this vision and turn it into a concrete thing,

da ovu viziju pretvori u stvarnost,

this telescope.

u ovaj teleskop.

And then launch it on a rocket,

I onda da ga lansira na raketi,

and then have the ability to use it, to probe

i da možemo da ga koristimo, da istražujemo

from right in our local neighborhood

iz našeg komšiluka

all the way to the edge of the known universe

sve do ivice poznatog univerzuma

and everything in between.

i sve između.

ND: Yeah. HH: It's amazing to me.

ND: Da. HH: To je sjajno.

And everybody had a role to play.

I svi su imali svoju ulogu.

The beryllium miners

Rudari koji su vadili berilijum

who mined the beryllium we used to make the mirrors

koji smo koristili da napravimo ogledala

and the cable wrappers who wrapped the cables

i radnici koji su napravili kablove

to allow this thing to move,

koji omogućavaju teleskopu da se pomera,

and the people who built the different instruments.

i ljudi koji su napravili razne instrumente.

We have a suite of four different instruments,

Imamo skup četiri različita instrumenta,

cameras and spectrographs.

kamera i spektrografa.

Both here, in Europe.

I ovde i u Evropi.

You know, we all worked -- in Canada.

Znate, svi smo radili - u Kanadi.

Canada made the fine guidance sensor that allows us to point this thing.

Kanada je napravila senzor za navođenje uz pomoć kojeg usmeravamo teleskop.

I mean, it's a truly international effort

Zaista je u pitanju međunarodni poduhvat

and it all comes together to create this revolution

i onda se sve spoji i napravi ovu revoluciju

in how we see the cosmos.

u načinu na koji vidimo kosmos.

ND: Do you have a favorite

ND: Da li imate omiljenu sliku

among the images that have been released so far?

među onima koje su već objavljene?

HH: Well, they all have special aspects about them

HH: Pa, sve imaju posebne aspekte

that make me go, “Wow!”

koji me oduševe.

In the case of the “Cosmic Cliffs” image,

Kada je u pitanju slika “Kosmičke litice”,

it’s beautiful, it’s blue in the dark and orange in the bottom.

prelepa je, tamno plava pozadina i narandžasta napred

And, you know, I get excited about images like that

I, kao što znate, oduševim se takvim slikama

because not only are they tremendously beautiful

zato što su ne samo neverovatno lepe

and evocative in a poetic way,

i izazivaju lirska osećanja,

but those are places where stars are being born.

nego su to mesta gde se rađaju zvezde.

And some of the little pokey things that stick out,

I neke od tih malih izbočina koje se ističu,

that give it some of its dramatic structure,

koje im daju dramatičnu strukturu,

you know, those are -- that’s star birth in the making.

znate, to su - to je početak rađanja zvezde.

And I think that's just so cool.

I mislim da je to prosto sjajno.

And particularly when we use our infrared cameras,

Naročito kada koristimo infracrvene kamere,

we can look inside some of those knobs and see the stars that are being born.

možemo da bacimo pogled unutar tih izbočina i vidimo zvezde koje se rađaju.

And in some places, like the Orion Nebula --

I na nekim mestima, kao što je maglina Orion -

there was just an image released of the Orion Nebula --

upravo je objavljena slika magline Orion -

that’s places where planetary systems are forming.

to su mesta gde se formiraju planetarni sistemi.

We aren't seeing the planets,

Ne vidimo planete,

but we're seeing the swirling disks of dust and gas

ali vidimo rotirajuće diskove prašine i gasa

where those planets are being born.

gde se te planete rađaju.

And even some of these galaxy images, while they may be static,

I čak na nekim od tih slika galaksija, iako su statične,

like the "Stephan's Quintet" image,

kao što je slika “Stefanov kvintet”,

which is five galaxies --

u pitanju je pet galaksija,

one of which is an interloper, it’s a foreground galaxy.

jedna od njih je interloper, to je galaksija bliža nama na slici.

It’s not part of the other crew.

Nije deo grupe ostalih galaksija.

ND: Just wanted to be in the shot.

ND: Samo je želela da bude na slici.

HH: It's just photobombing the other ones.

HH: Ubacila se ispred ostalih.

But the four that are part of a cluster,

Ali ostale četiri koje su deo grupe,

what you learn from James Webb Space Telescope

ono što smo naučili od Svemirskog teleskopa Džejms Veb

is that in the regions where they are interacting and overlapping,

je da u oblastima gde utiču jedne na druge i preklapaju se,

those regions light up in the infrared.

te oblasti su osvetljene na infracrvenom spektru.

Those are places where the dust and the gas

To su mesta gde se prašina i gas

and the existing stars of those other galaxies,

i postojeće zvezde iz drugih galaksija,

when they are interacting, they are forming new stars.

kada se spajaju, stvaraju nove zvezde.

They are creating new realms of star formation,

Stvaraju nove mogućnosti rađanja zvezda

and they just light up in the infrared in that image.

i samo se pojave osvetljene na infrecrvenom spektru na tim slikama.

ND: Yeah. And I just wonder, like, what's missing from that picture?

ND: Da. I pitam se, šta nedostaje na toj slici?

What can JWST fill in?

Sta JWST može da popuni?

I mean, how much more color can it add?

Mislim, koliko boje može da doda?

HH: What JWST adds to our ongoing story

HH: Ono što JWST dodaje ovoj našoj priči koja je u toku

is it adds new wavelengths of light

su nove talasne dužine svetlosti

that we haven't had the sensitivity to study,

koje nismo imali mogućnost da proučimo.

and different wavelengths of light tell you different parts of this story.

Različite talasne dužine svetlosti nam daju različite delove ove priče.

And we also use tools in astronomy called spectrographs,

Mi u astronomiji takođe koristimo instrumente koji se zovu spektrografi

and that is where we don't just take pictures,

i tu ne dobijamo samo slike,

but we actually take the light

nego svetlost

and we spread it out into its rainbow of colors.

raščlanimo na dugine boje.

And what we do is we look for what we call fingerprints in that light, if you will.

I tražimo ono što nazivamo otiscima prstiju te svetlosti.

Certain atoms and molecules tend to absorb specific colors of light,

Određeni atomi i molekuli apsorbuju specifične boje svetlosti,

just by the very nature of their construction,

po prirodi njihove građe

and their motion and vibration.

i njihovih pokreta i vibracija.

They absorb certain colors of light.

Apsorbuju određene boje svetlosti.

So by spreading the light out into a rainbow

Raščlanjivanjem svetlosti na boje duge

and looking for patterns in what light is missing,

i traženjem obrazaca u svetlosti koja nedostaje,

that tells you what molecules are there.

to nam govori koji molekuli se tamo nalaze.

And not only does it tell you [which] are there,

I govori nam ne samo koji se tamo nalaze,

it tells you their temperature.

daje nam njihovu temperaturu.

It can tell you their pressures.

Može da nam kaže njihov pritisak.

By tracking carefully these lines in the spectrum,

Pažljivo prateći te linije na spektru,

you can determine the motions of this material.

možemo da utvrdimo pokrete ovog materijala.

And so we don't just have a static picture.

I tako ne dobijamo samo statičnu sliku.

We can actually do

Možemo da u stvari uradimo

three-dimensional tomography of astrophysical objects

trodimenzionalnu tomografiju astrofizičkih objekata

by using this spectral light information.

koristeći ove informacije o svetlosti sa spektrografa.

But as an astronomer, it's not just the pictures.

Govoreći kao astronom, nisu u pitanju samo slike.

It is spreading that light out and looking into its constituents,

Raščlanjivanje te svetlosti i posmatranje onoga što je sačinjava,

that’s where the real, deep science takes place.

to je prava, duboka nauka.

That’s where you get what stars are actually made of.

Tu saznajemo od čega su zvezde napravljene.

Like, helium, and the helium and hydrogen,

Na primer, helijum, helijum, vodonik

and beryllium and even iron and nickel.

i berilijum, pa čak i gvožđe i nikl.

How do you know that? You can't go there and weigh it.

Kako to znamo? Ne možemo da odemo tamo i izmerimo.

You learn it from the light.

Učimo od svetlosti.

ND: Can you tell us about that instrument

ND: Možete li da nam pričate o tom instrumentu

and what it might be able to show us about Uranus and Neptune

i šta bi mogao da nam kaže o Uranu i Neptunu

and some of the other giant planets that we haven't been able to see before?

i o nekim drugim velikim planetama koje ranije nismo videli?

How is this telescope going to help us understand these worlds?

Kako će nam ovaj teleskop pomoći da razumemo ove svetove?

HH: Let's say you wanted to study Jupiter's rings, right?

HH: Recimo da želimo da proučavamo prstenove Jupitera.

We know Jupiter has rings. Voyager saw them.

Znamo da Jupiter ima prstenove. Vojadžer ih je video.

But we know most planetary rings change with time.

Ali znamo da se većina prstenova planeta menja vremenom.

Trying to image the faint ring of Jupiter

Jako je teško napraviti sliku jedva vidljivog prstena Jupitera

next to the incredibly bright planet of Jupiter

pored neverovatno svetle planete Jupiter.

is extraordinarily difficult.

The rings are a million times fainter than the planet,

Prstenovi su milion puta bleđi od planete,

and they're right next to it.

a nalaze se baš pored nje.

But James Webb Space Telescope, the sensitivity is so good

Ali, kod Svemirskog teleskopa Džejms Veb, osetljivost je tako dobra

and the imaging capability is so good

i mogućnost dobijanja slika je tako dobra

that the scattered light from Jupiter

da se raspršena svetlost Jupitera

does not spread even out to the local place where the rings are.

ne širi čak ni do tog mesta u blizini gde se nalaze prstenovi.

So in our first images, engineering images of Jupiter,

Na našim prvim slikama, inženjerskim slikama Jupitera,

that were taken just to test the scattered light on the camera --

koje su napravljene samo da se testira raštrkana svetlost na kameri,

they took a couple of sharp, short images of Jupiter

dobili smo nekoliko oštrih, kratkih slika Jupitera

and moved Jupiter closer and closer to the fine guidance sensor

i pomerili smo Jupiter sve bliže osetljivom senzoru za navođenje

to see if it would screw up our guiding --

da vidimo da li će to uticati na navođenje -

even in those short engineering images, the rings are right there.

čak i na tim kratkim inženjerskim slikama, prstenovi su tu.

Beautiful.

Prelepo.

Just totally resolved right next to the planet a million times brighter.

Jednostavno potpuno jasni, tik pored planete koja je milion puta sjajnija.

ND: Well, can we talk about planets outside the solar system, too?

ND: Pa, možemo li da razgovaramo i o planetama koje su van sunčevog sistema?

HH: Sure. Yeah. What's your favorite?

HH: Naravno. Da. Koja je vaša omiljena?

ND: What's your favorite?

ND: Koja je vaša omiljena?

HH: Oh, I don't know. I've got a couple of favorites.

HH: Ne znam, imam nekoliko omiljenih.

ND: Yeah?

ND: Da?

HH: I think a lot of astronomers’ ... favorite system right now

HH: Mislim da je trenutno omiljeni sistem mnogih astronoma

is the TRAPPIST-1 system.

TRAPPIST-1 sistem.

ND: Yeah. Tell me about it.

ND: Da. Pričajte mi o njemu.

HH: TRAPPIST-1 is -- that's the name of the star.

HH: TRAPPIST-1 je - to je ime zvezde.

TRAPPIST is the name of the survey, right?

TRAPPIST je ime istraživanja.

But it looked at this star and it discovered

Posmatrali smo ovu zvezdu i otkrili smo

that there are at least seven planets orbiting this star.

da postoji bar sedam planeta u orbiti oko ove zvezde.

And most of those planets seem to be Earth-sized.

I većina tih planeta je veličine Zemlje.

In the TRAPPIST-1 system,

U sistemu TRAPPIST-1,

several of the planets are the right distance from the host star

nekoliko tih planeta su na pravoj razdaljini od zvezde

that water could be liquid on the surface of them.

da bi voda mogla biti u tečnom stanju na njihovoj površini.

We call that the habitable zone.

Mi to zovemo naseljiva zona.

And you and I could have a long talk about what habitability actually means.

Vi i ja bismo mogli dugo da pričamo o tome šta naseljivost zaista znači.

But in our solar system, at least on our Earth,

Ali, u našem solarnom sistemu, bar na Zemlji,

the only place that we know life exists, there's a lot of water.

jedinom mestu na kojem znamo da postoji život, ima puno vode.

And so when we're talking about looking for habitable planets,

Kada pričamo o traženju naseljivih planeta,

we look at planets that are at the right distance from their host star

tražimo planete koje su na pravoj razdaljini od njihove matične zvezde

that they could have water on them.

da bi mogle da sadrže vodu.

So that TRAPPIST system that we know that there are planets

Znamo da u sistemu TRAPPIST postoje planete

in potentially habitable region,

koje su u potencijalno naseljivoj zoni

and that those planets are roughly Earth-sized,

i da su te planete otprilike veličine Zemlje.

they are everybody's favorite right now

One su sada svačiji favoriti

for JWST to take a look at with our spectrographs.

da ih JWST prouči našim spektrografima.

ND: Yeah.

ND: Da.

Do you think there is life beyond Earth somewhere?

Da li mislite da život postoji negde van Zemlje?

And if so, where?

I ako je tako, gde?

HH: OK, so let me answer the second question first.

HH: U redu, prvo ću odgovoriti na drugo pitanje.

This question of, “is there alien life out there?”

Ovo pitanje: “Da li tamo negde postoji vanzemaljski život?”

I usually break it up into two things.

ja obično raščlanim na dve stvari.

One is a thought experiment about the size of the universe,

Prva je misaoni eksperiment o veličini univerzuma,

the scale of the universe,

razmerama univerzuma,

just how many stars there are in our galaxy.

koliko zvezda postoji u našoj galaksiji.

And then how many galaxies?

I onda, koliko galaksija postoji?

There's billions of stars just in our local galaxy.

Samo u našoj galaksiji postoji milijarde zvezda.

And there's billions of galaxies out there.

I onda, postoji milijarde galaksija tamo negde.

And we talk about whether or not life could have formed

Mi pričamo o tome da li bi život mogao nastati

over the billions of years that our universe has existed

tokom milijardi godina koliko naš univerzum postoji

with these billions of galaxies, each of which has billions of stars.

sa ovim milijardama galaksija, od kojih svaka sadrži milijarde zvezda.

I say life has to exist somewhere out there.

Ja kažem da život mora da postoji negde tamo.

Somewhere. [It] has to be out there.

Mora da postoji negde tamo.

Does that mean that aliens have come to Earth and visited us?

Da li to znači da su vanzemaljci došli na Zemlju?

No, that's a totally separate question.

Ne, to je potpuno drugo pitanje.

I just -- it's not a related question.

Ja samo - to pitanje nema veze sa ovim.

That's a more psychological question.

To je više psihološko pitanje.

I'm more interested in the science aspect of the question.

Više me interesuje naučni aspekt ovog pitanja.

I think we need to start with terrestrial-sized planets

Mislim da moramo da počnemo sa planetama veličine Zemlje

that are the right distance to have water on them,

koje su na pravoj razdaljini da imaju vodu na sebi,

because those are the conditions required to create life as we know it on Earth.

zato što su to uslovi potrebni za stvaranje života kakav postoji na Zemlji.

And the only kind of life that we'll initially recognize

Mislim da će jedina vrsta života koji ćemo u početku prepoznati

is going to be life like ours, I think.

biti život nalik našem.

ND: So JWST is one tool that we can use in the search for life beyond Earth.

ND: Dakle, JWST je oruđe koje možemo da koristimo za traženje života van Zemlje.

But there are others, including within our own solar system:

Ali postoje druga, uključujući neka u našem sunčevom sistemu:

some of the rovers that are on Mars,

neki roveri koji su na Marsu

currently looking for signs of ancient biosignatures

i trenutno traže znake starih bioloških potpisa

or ancient signs of alien life in the rocks there,

ili stare znake vanzemaljskog života na stenama na Marsu.

but also some of the missions that are being planned

Takođe, neke misije su planirane

to the outer solar system,

za spoljašnjost sunčevog sistema,

and specifically some of the moons there.

tačnije za neke mesece koji se tamo nalaze.

I'm curious about whether you think it's possible that life exists here

Zanima me da li mislite da je moguće da život postoji tu,

in our local neighborhood,

u našem komšiluku,

but beyond Earth.

ali van Zemlje.

HH: Hey, anything is possible.

HH: Sve je moguće.

I've learned in my career never to deal in absolutes

U mojoj karijeri sam naučila da ne govorim u apsolutima

because the universe is great at throwing curveballs at you.

zato što univerzum zna da nas iznenadi.

You know, when we have our rovers on Mars

Znate, kada imamo rovere na Marsu

and our orbiters that are doing really exquisite orbital imaging,

i orbitere koji prave zaista sjajne orbitalne slike,

it's clear that there's evidence that at one time there was liquid water

jasno je da postoje dokazi da je nekada postojala tekuća voda

on the surface of Mars.

na površini Marsa.

There’s sedimentation,

Postoje sedimenti,

there’s a chemical evidence,

postoje hemijski dokazi,

there's, you know, actually water trapped

postoji voda zarobljena

in the ices in the poles of Mars right now.

u ledu na polovima Marsa.

And so it could very well be that at some time in the past

Tako da je moguće da je u nekom trenutku u prošlosti

that planet had liquid water

ta planeta imala vodu u tečnom stanju

and may have had the conditions for life to form.

i da je možda imala uslove za stvaranje života.

We don't know.

Ne znamo.

It could be that life formed there first

Moguće je da je život prvo nastao tamo

and transmitted itself inward to us. We could be Martians.

i da je prešao kod nas. Možda smo Marsovci.

ND: We could be Martians.

ND: Mogli bismo biti Marsovci.

HH: I don't know. We don't know the answer to that.

HH: Ne znam. Nemamo odgovor na to pitanje.

Using our definition of looking at places where there's liquid water,

Ako koristimo našu definiciju da tražimo život na mestima gde postoji tekuća voda,

you know, people sort of initially confined it

znate, ljudi su u početku odredili

to a certain distance from the host star --

da mora biti na određenoj udaljenosti od zvezde,

sort of from the Earth just barely out to Mars

otprilike od Zemlje i jedva do Marsa

and maybe inward a little bit,

i možda malo bliže zvezdi,

not quite as inward as Venus,

ne baš toliko blizu kao Venera.

but they kind of limited it to that region,

To područje su ograničili na tu oblast,

saying, “Well, Earth is the Goldilocks zone.

govoreći: “Pa, Zemlja je u zoni Zlatokose.

That's why it's not too hot, not too cold.

Zato nije ni previše toplo, ni previše hladno.

That’s why life is here.”

Zato ovde postoji život.”

But we've learned more about our solar system

Ali saznali smo više o našem sunčevom sistemu

with the spacecraft and telescopes.

uz pomoć svemirskih letelica i teleskopa.

And one of the things that we have learned with our missions

Jedna od stvari koje smo naučili tokom naših misija

to the Jupiter system and the Saturn system

na Jupiteru i Saturnu

is that some of the larger moons in those systems

je da na mnogim većim mesecima u blizini tih planeta

do have evidence of liquid water in their interiors.

postoje dokazi da postoji tekuća voda u njihovoj unutrašnjosti.

More water on Jupiter's moon,

Više vode na Jupiterovom mesecu,

more water inside Jupiter's moon, Europa,

više vode u Jupiterovom mesecu Evropa

that we have on the surface of the Earth, which is kind of crazy. Think about it.

nego što imamo na površini Zemlje, što je neverovatno. Razmislite o tome.

ND: It’s mind-boggling to think about.

ND: Neverovatno je.

HH: The question is, could life form in that water?

HH: Pitanje je: da li bi život mogao nastati u vodi?

And it gets back to what are the ingredients you need for life?

I vraćamo se na pitanje koji su uslovi potrebni za život?

You need water, but you also need some kind of an energy source.

Potrebna je voda, ali takođe je potreban nekakav izvor energije.

You need some kind of a surface

Potrebna je nekakva površina

on which life can do its chemical thing to form.

na kojoj može da se razvije hemija potrebna za nastanak života.

I'm not an astrobiologist, so I don't know what the right lingo is,

Ja nisam astrobiolog, tako da ne znam pravi naučni izraz,

but you need to have a surface for stuff to happen.

ali potrebna je površina na kojoj će se stvari dešavati.

And does Europa have those things?

Da li Evropa ima te uslove?

Well, it doesn't have them on its surface.

Pa, nema ih na svojoj površini.

Its surface is just ice.

Njena površina je led.

But we know from our various flybys of this --

Ali, iz raznih letova pored Evrope znamo -

we were able to map out its structure, its internal structure,

uspeli smo da napravimo mapu njene unutrašnje strukture

by looking at the magnetic field and how it interacts with it,

posmatrajući magnetno polje i u kakvom je odnosu Evropa sa njim,

by looking at gravitational deflection --

posmatrajući gravitacionu defleksiju -

we know that it probably has a solid core,

znamo da verovatno ima čvrsto jezgro

and we also know that Europa is warm.

i takođe znamo da je Evropa topla.

Now, why would this moon out there at Jupiter's distance,

Zašto bi taj mesec tamo daleko pored Jupitera,

why would it be warm, right?

zašto bi bio topao?

Why would Jupiter’s other moon, Io, have active volcanoes?

Zašto bi drugi Jupiterov mesec Io imao aktivne vulkane?

That's really warm. That's crazy warm.

To je jako toplo. To je neverovatno toplo.

And the answer is these moons actually interact with one another.

Odgovor je da ti meseci u stvari utiču jedni na druge.

They do like a little resonant dance with each other as they orbit Jupiter.

Oni izvode neku vrstu malog rezonantnog plesa dok obilaze oko Jupitera.

And as they orbit one another and interact with one another,

I dok obilaze jedan oko drugog i utiču jedan na drugog,

the gravity of these moons makes very tiny flexes

gravitacija ovih meseca pravi male talase

in the shape of the moons,

na površini meseca

but the flexes repeat over time

i to se vremenom ponavlja,

and that repeating warms the planet.

a to ponavljanje greje planetu.

I used to illustrate this for kids with old credit cards.

To sam deci objašnjavala starim kreditnim karticama.

If you take an old credit card

Ako uzmete staru kreditnu karticu

and you bend it, bend it, bend it, bend it,

i savijate je, savijate, savijate, savijate

and you feel where you're bending, it's warm.

i osetite da postaje topla na mestu gde se savija.

It's really the same process.

To je u suštini isti proces.

It's that flexing is what warms these.

To savijanje ih greje.

So for Europa in orbit around Jupiter,

I tako, na Evropi u orbiti oko Jupitera

we have the water, we have the rocky surface deep inside.

imamo vodu, imamo stene duboko u unutrašnjosti.

We have warmth.

Imamo toplotu.

We've got this energy source thing.

Imamo izvor energije.

So is it possible that life has formed there?

Da li je moguće da život nastane tamo?

Sure.

Naravno.

Who am I to say no?

Ko sam ja da kažem ne?

I mean, what do I know?

Mislim, šta znam?

I mean, the universe is much more complex than I can imagine.

Univerzum je mnogo složeniji nego što mogu da zamislim.

So we are building a spacecraft called the Clipper spacecraft,

Gradimo svemirsku letelicu koja se zove Kliper,

which is going to go to the Jupiter system

koja će ići u sistem Jupitera

and it's going to orbit Jupiter,

i obilaziće oko Jupitera,

but it's going to do multiple flybys of the moon Europa.

ali će više puta leteti pored meseca Evropa.

ND: So, Heidi, word on the street is that you have a favorite moon.

ND: Hajdi, priča se da imate omiljeni mesec?

What is it?

Koji je?

And there's only one right answer to this question.

Postoji samo jedan pravi odgovor na ovo pitanje.

HH: My favorite moon is Triton.

HH: Moj omiljeni mesec je Triton.

ND: It's a pretty good one. HH: It's not the right one, though?

ND: On je prilično dobar. HH: Ali to nije tačan odgovor?

ND: Htela sam da kažem da je to Japetus.

ND: I was going to say Iapetus.

HH: No, no, no, no.

HH: Ne, ne, ne, ne.

We're going to have a long conversation about that.

Imaćemo dug razgovor o tome.

ND: Tell me why Triton is better.

ND: Recite mi zašto je Triton bolji.

HH: Triton is such a cool moon.

HH: Triton je kul mesec.

It goes in a retrograde orbit backwards around the planet.

Ima retrogradnu orbitu unazad oko planete.

We think it was actually a Kuiper Belt object

Mislimo da je to u stvari bio objekat u pojasu Kajper

that got too close to Neptune and was captured by Neptune.

koji se previše približio Neptunu i Neptun ga je zarobio.

And it's a big moon.

To je veliki mesec.

I mean, if you want Pluto to be a planet,

Mislim, ako želite da Pluton bude planeta,

I don't know where you stand on that issue,

ne znam šta mislite o tom pitanju,

but Triton is twin to Pluto.

ali Triton je Plutonov blizanac.

So it's like a planet in orbit around another planet.

On je kao planeta u orbiti oko druge planete.

ND: But it’s going backwards.

ND: Ali ide unazad.

HH: But it's going backwards around the planet.

HH: Ali ide unazad oko planete.

And when Voyager flew by in 1989,

Kada je Vojadžer proleteo pored njega 1989,

it actually flew kind of close,

u stvari je proleteo prilično blizu,

so we got a good view of one half of it.

dobili smo dobar pogled na jednu njegovu polovinu.

And it's got remarkable terrain and it has active cryovolcanoes on it.

Ima neverovatan teren i aktivne kriovulkane na površini.

There are volcanoes, ice volcanoes, erupting on Triton, like, in real time.

To su vulkani leda koji su aktivni na Tritonu.

So that's pretty amazing.

I to je prilično neverovatno.

I mean, it's got an atmosphere, right?

Mislim, ima atmosferu, zar ne?

And it could have a liquid water ocean inside it.

I mogao bi da ima tečan okean vode u unutrašnjosti.

So it may be an ocean world.

To bi mogao da bude okeanski svet.

And since we know it's active, because we saw it with Voyager,

I pošto znamo da je aktivan, zato što smo ga videli Vojadžerom.

that may be another abode for life.

To bi moglo da bude još jedno mesto za život.

ND: So, Heidi, how did you become interested in astronomy?

ND: Pa, Hajdi, kako ste postali zainteresovani za astronomiju?

What was it that lit that fire for you?

Šta je podstaklo tu vatru?

HH: It's kind of a goofy story, but I think in one sense,

HH: To je smešna priča, ali mislim da sam na neki način

I became an astronomer because I used to get carsick.

postala astronom zato što mi je bilo muka u kolima.

ND: Seriously?

ND: Ozbiljno?

HH: My family would go on road trips

HH: Moja porodica je išla na putovanja

i, znate,

and, you know,

I would be in the back of the car and I'd be so sick and I couldn't read.

bila sam na zadnjem sedištu kola i bilo mi je muka i nisam mogla da čitam.

I couldn't do anything except stare out the window.

Nisam mogla da radim ništa osim da gledam kroz prozor.

And at night, staring out the window,

Noću, dok sam gledala kroz prozor,

I started to recognize star patterns like the Big Dipper and Orion.

počela sam da primećujem sazvežđa kao što su Veliki medved i Orion.

And I became more familiar with them

I postali su mi bliži

because that's all I could do is to stare out at the sky.

zato što sam samo mogla da gledam u nebo.

And so, you know, I think that sort of kindled an interest for me.

I tako, mislim da je to podstaklo moje interesovanje.

But I had a math teacher who one day took her class of four students aside

Imala sam profesorku matematike koja je jednog dana odvela četiri učenika

and said, "Where are you young people planning to go to college?"

na stranu i rekla: “Gde vi mladi ljudi planirate da idete na fakultet?”

And when it came to my turn, I said, "Penn State."

I kada je došao moj red, rekla sam: “Pen stejt.”

She said, "Why?"

Ona je pitala: “Zašto?”

And I said, “Well, my dad went to Penn State and I live in Pennsylvania.”

Rekla sam: “Pa, moj tata je išao na Pen stejt i živim u Pensilvaniji.”

She said, "I think you should apply to MIT."

Rekla je: “Mislim da bi trebalo da se prijaviš na MIT.”

ND: Wow.

ND: Opa.

HH: And I said, "I don't even know what that is."

HH: Rekla sam: “Ja čak ni ne znam šta je to.”

So she encouraged me and I applied.

Ona me je ohrabrila i prijavila sam se.

When it came time for letters of recommendation,

Kada je došlo vreme da se pošalje pismo preporuke,

I asked my chemistry teacher to write me a letter, and he said no.

pitala sam profesora hemije da ga napiše i on je rekao ne.

And I said, "Why not?"

Pitala sam: “Zašto ne?”

He said, "You'll never get into MIT."

Rekao je: “Nikad nećeš upasti na MIT.”

So I asked my history teacher instead,

Pa sam pitala profesorku istorije,

and she did write a letter and I did get into MIT.

a ona je napisala pismo i upala sam na MIT.

And when I brought back my acceptance letter

I kada sam donela pismo u kome su me primili

and showed it to my chemistry teacher -- “Look, I got into MIT.” --

i pokazala ga profesoru hemije - “Pogledajte, upala sam na MIT.”

he said, "It's only because you're a woman.

On je rekao: “To je samo zato što si žena.

They have quotas to fill."

Imaju kvote koje moraju da ispune.”

This is in 1978 when people said things like that to your face.

To je bilo 1978. kada su ljudi govorili takve stvari drugima u lice.

That made me angry more than anything.

To me je razljutilo više od svega.

So I was determined to go to MIT and --

Bila sam odlučna da odem na MIT

graduate, you know.

i diplomiram.

ND: What are some of the most nagging unanswered questions in your mind

ND: Koja su neka pitanja bez odgovora u astronomiji

that exist in astronomy?

koja vas muče?

Any field in astronomy, could be anywhere in the universe,

Bilo koje područje astronomije, bilo gde u unuverzumu,

close to home, far away.

blizu nas, daleko.

What bugs you? What keeps you up at night?

Šta vas muči? Šta vas drži budnom noću?

HH: How did the first stars and galaxies form in the universe?

HH: Kako su se prve zvezde i galaksije formirale u univerzumu?

We have lots of models and theories,

Imamo mnogo modela i teorija,

but to be able to make actual observations as early as we can,

ali da bismo mogli da uradimo posmatranja što ranije,

to tie together some of the disparate observations we have

moramo da povežemo neka posmatranja koja već imamo

with a coherent story.

u koherentnu priču.

I think that is an area that is very, very interesting right now.

Mislim da je to oblast koja je sada veoma, veoma zanimljiva.

And of course, that's why James Webb Space Telescope was built,

I naravno, zato je napravljen Svemirski teleskop Džejms Veb,

to add a piece to that story.

da doda deo te priče.

ND: Uh-huh.

ND: Aha.

HH: I think I'm also interested

HH: Takođe me interesuje

in how our planetary system that we live in,

planetarni sistem u kom živimo,

how did it in particular come to be and how did it come to be habitable?

kako je nastao i kako je postao naseljiv?

We know this is the only one ...

Znamo da je ovo jedini -

the only system that we know is inhabited, right,

jedini sistem za koji znamo da je naseljen

is our solar system. ND: Right.

je naš Sunčev sistem. ND: Tačno.

HH: Is it required that you have giant planets in the outer system

HH: Da li je potrebno imati džinovske planete u spoljašnjosti sistema

and small planets in the inner solar system

i male planete u unutrašnjosti

to make habitability?

da bi bio naseljiv?

Or is it just by happenstance?

Ili se to samo desi?

Did you have to have a Jupiter to make it habitable?

Da li je potrebno imati Jupiter da bi bio naseljiv?

Did you have to have a Neptune to sweep out through the Kuiper Belt

Da li je potrebno imati Neptun da kroz Kajperov pojas

and deliver volatiles to the inner solar system,

donese elemente u unutrašnjost Sunčevog sistema,

water and stuff?

vodu i slično?

I mean, that's so interesting. And ...

Mislim, to je jako zanimljivo. I...

And it touches us as humans.

I tiče se nas ljudi.

Like, how did we come to be?

Kako smo nastali?

It's part of our story, it's part of our life story.

To je deo naše priče, naše životne priče.

So I'm very interested in that question as well.

Zato sam jako zainteresovana i za to pitanje.

And we still have so many observations left to make,

I još ima mnogo posmatranja koja treba da uradimo,

both within our solar system and in the greater universe.

i u našem solarnom sistemu, i u ostatku univerzuma.

I think astronomers will be busy for a long time to come.

Mislim da će astronomi još dugo biti zauzeti.