The Marvels and Mysteries Revealed by the James Webb Space Telescope | Heidi Hammel and Nadia Drake

翻译人员: Jacky He 校对人员: Yan Li Xiao

Nadia Drake: Well, I do want to ask you

纳迪娅·德雷克：那么， 我想从你那儿知道关于

about the sharpest new shiny space telescope in the shed

装备库里最先进和时髦， 且富有光泽的太空望远镜的事情；

which happens to be here,

而它正好在这儿，

the James Webb Space Telescope,

詹姆斯·韦伯太空望远镜，

or JWST.

缩写为 JWST。

Heidi Hammel: We already knew back then in the late 80s, 1990s,

海蒂·哈默尔：我们当时 在 80，90 年代晚期就已经知道

that the universe was expanding.

宇宙是持续膨胀的。

And we knew that to see the very first galaxies

我们也清楚，为了能够 看到宇宙里最初形成的

and maybe even the first stars that ever formed in the universe --

星系，甚至是最初的恒星——

Because of the expansion of the universe,

因为宇宙的持续膨胀，

the light from those galaxies is likewise expanded,

那些星系发出的光线也相应拉长了，

and it's shifted from blue wavelengths to longer wavelengths, red wavelengths.

并从蓝色的波长范围 移到了红色的波长范围。

And so the concept then for the next generation space telescope

所以当时对新一代 太空望远镜的概念

was to build an advanced telescope

就是建造一台收集光谱 红外线部分信息的

that really focused on the infrared part of the spectrum,

进阶望远镜，

because that's where we could see the first stars and the first galaxies.

因为那样我们才能 见到最初的恒星和星系。

I knew that this telescope that was being built to find it,

我知道这望远镜是为了找到它，

to probe the light from the first galaxies,

探究最初星系的光线 而被建造的，

would also be a fabulous tool to study Neptune and Uranus.

它也会是一把研究 天王星与海王星的利器。

I mean, I just knew that because I knew it would be big enough.

我是说，我就是心里清楚， 因为它体型足够大。

I knew that because it was a space telescope,

我也意识到因为它是太空望远镜，

the images would be stable and pristine.

得到的照片将会是 稳定而无瑕疵的。

And I knew that these wavelengths of light in the infrared

我也知道在红外范围的波长

had all sorts of interesting molecular signatures

带着各种有趣的分子特征，

so that we could learn

于是我们可以了解

about the upper atmospheres of these planets.

这些星球的高空大气层的组成。

And so I’m like, “I’m in. I’ll do this.”

于是我这样表态，“我加入。 我会做这项任务。”

So in 2002, I wrote a proposal saying

然后在 2022 年， 我写了一份申请，

I would like to be an interdisciplinary scientist for this program

上面有着我想为了在望远镜发射后

to ensure that this telescope will be able to do solar system observations

它能进行太阳系的观测而成为一名

when it is launched.

跨领域科学家的意愿。

And in 2003, my proposal was accepted,

然后在 2003 年， 我的申请被接受了；

and that was how I formally became involved in this telescope.

这就是我怎么 被正式邀请加入此项目的。

So Webb --

那么韦伯——

It's different than Hubble.

它与哈勃不同。

It's a different kind of telescope for a number of reasons.

有很多原因使它成为 种类不同的望远镜。

One is it's a lot bigger than Hubble.

第一，它比哈勃体型要大许多。

It’s a six-and-a-half-meter mirror -- the golden mirror, the collecting area --

它的主镜，金色的反光镜， 接受区域直径是七米半；

versus Hubble's two point four.

而哈勃的相较只有二米四。

ND: It’s so big that it couldn’t be launched looking like that.

德雷克：它是如此的庞大， 以至于发射时得做出调整，

It had to be all folded up.

得把它折叠起来。

HH: That’s right. It had to be folded up.

哈默尔：是的，它必须被叠起来。

And that's why the mirror is segments.

而这也是为什么镜面是分区块的。

ND: Yeah. HH: So that it could be folded up.

德雷克：嗯。哈默尔： 使它能被叠起来。

ND: Like a honeycomb. HH: Like a honeycomb, exactly.

德雷克：像个蜂窝。 哈默尔：的确，像个蜂窝。

ND: But then it had to unfold in space.

德雷克：但在太空里 得重新展开来。

And I remember how nervous people were about this process

我也记得人们之前对 这一过程是那么的焦虑，

because it really was something

因为这其中

that everything, every single step had to go right.

所有每一步骤都不能错。

HH: Not only did the telescope have to fold up,

哈默尔：而且不仅是 望远镜要叠起来，

but we -- if you look at Webb,

我们还——如果你观察一下韦伯，

it's got this huge contraption underneath it,

它的下面有这个我们称为遮阳罩的

which we call a sunshield.

巨型装置。

And that's crucial for this telescope.

这对望远镜来说是关键的。

ND: How did you feel as you were witnessing the deployment sequence?

德雷克：你在见证望远镜 按时序展开时心情是怎样的？

HH: I sure was nervous, just like everybody else.

哈默尔：我肯定也是紧张的， 像所有其他人一样。

There were several single point failures

有几处可能的单点故障，

where if that thing didn't unbolt or unfold,

如果机械不成功解除固定或展开，

we didn't have a working telescope anymore.

我们的望远镜将不能顺利运行。

So it was extremely nerve-racking.

所以是紧绷神经的。

But we had many years of testing

但我们几年中进行了各种测试，

because we knew that there was no fixing this telescope.

因为我们知道这望远镜无法被修理。

This telescope's not in low earth orbit like Hubble.

它不像哈勃位于近地轨道，

The James Webb Space Telescope is a million miles away

而是在一百万英里开外，

at a point called the L2 Point,

我们称作“L2 点”的位置。

and it was put out there deliberately because it needed to be cold.

它被部署在那儿， 是因为需要保持低温。

It needed to have the sunshield to protect the telescope

它得有遮阳罩以保护自己免受

from the warmth of the Sun, the warmth of the Earth

来自太阳，地球， 甚至是月球的热量。

and even the warmth of our Moon.

So the sunshield is designed to be like an umbrella that protects it,

遮阳罩被设计成保护望远镜的伞，

a sun umbrella that keeps that telescope super cold.

维持它超低温环境的阳伞。

So we couldn't put it in low earth orbit

所以我们不能把它放于近地轨道，

because it's just too warm in that environment.

因为那儿的温度过高了。

You can't sense infrared light when it's hot.

在周围较热的时候接收不到红外线，

You have to have it cold.

它必须得是冷的。

By the way, that's also why this telescope

顺便提一句，这也是 为什么这个望远镜

is completely exposed to the elements of space.

完全裸露在宇宙的影响下。

Most other telescopes have tubes that enclose them,

大多其它望远镜有 包裹着它们的管状外壳，

and this one doesn't.

但这个没有。

The mirrors are just sitting out there. ND: They're just out there.

它的镜面露在外面。 德雷克：它直接露在外面。

HH: They're just sitting out there.

哈默尔：它就是露在外面。

ND: So the first deep field from JWST,

德雷克：那么关于 韦伯的第一张深空照片，

I think the analogy I heard was that the image itself

我听说的一个比喻是整张照片

covers about the amount of space

覆盖的宇宙区域

as a grain of rice on a fingertip held at arm's length.

就像是手臂伸直后指尖上的 一粒米占的空间。

Is that right?

是这样的吗？

HH: I heard a grain of sand, not a grain of rice.

哈默尔：我听说的 是一粒沙，不是一粒米。

But it's the same concept, you know, that -- yeah.

但意思是相同的。

If you -- the piece of sky you see in that picture,

你那张照片里看到的那片太空——

if you were like standing in your backyard and looking up in the sky,

如果你是在后院里仰望星辰，

that piece of sky is about the same size as a tiny grain of sand.

那片宇宙就好像一粒微小沙子。

If you moved your grain of sand over to the left,

如果你把沙子往左挪，

you would see more galaxies,

就看到更多的星系；

and over to the left again, more galaxies.

再向左挪，还是更多的星系。

And anywhere you looked in the sky, it is filled with galaxies.

不管你朝天上哪儿看， 它都充满了星系。

ND: Just thousands and thousands in that one image alone.

德雷克：那一张照片里 就有数以千计的星系。

HH: Exactly. What I'm waiting for

哈默尔：说对了。我在期盼的是

is the James Webb Space Telescope Deep Field,

韦伯的深空照片。

where we stare for days at a dark spot that we don't know where anything is.

我们好几天观察着这个 暗黑区域，不知道什么在哪里。

What are we going to see?

我们会看到什么？

And then, think about that, going to be all over the whole sky.

而这将在天空每一处重现。

Our universe is going to mentally expand

我们对宇宙的认知，

at that moment when we get that deep field from James Webb Space Telescope.

将在我们收到韦伯望远镜的 深空照片的那一刻膨胀。

It's going to be mind-blowing.

这将是震惊世人的。

ND: I just think about it.

德雷克：我感觉就是

Peering so far back in time

看向之前的时光，

to the beginning of the primordial cosmic murk.

回到宇宙原始的混沌。

HH: Yeah.

哈默尔：对啊。

ND: When stars and galaxies are just starting to turn on

德雷克：当恒星和星系 才刚开始形成的时候，

and how different the universe was

那时宇宙是多么的不同；

and the fact that we humans on this one little planet Earth

还有我们人类在 这小小的星球，地球上

can craft an instrument that has the capability

能够造出一件器具让我们看到

to let us see that, 13.5 billion years ago,

135 亿年前的， 或按测出来的时间为准，

or whatever it ends up being,

那段时期的模样；

is really phenomenal.

这都是非同寻常的。

HH: Yeah.

哈默尔：是的。

I view it as an example of what humanity can do

我将这作为人类为了 崇高理想而奋斗时，

when we work for the greater good,

在我们以团队为组织工作， 并有着清晰的目标时

when we work as teams and we have a goal.

能达成什么的例子。

This project required thousands of people in multiple countries,

这个项目需要涉及

multiple states,

在众多不同国家和地域的人

to take this vision and turn it into a concrete thing,

以将此愿景，这个望远镜，

this telescope.

转化为现实，

And then launch it on a rocket,

并将它装在火箭上发射，

and then have the ability to use it, to probe

并能够操作它，以探查

from right in our local neighborhood

我们这块的社区

all the way to the edge of the known universe

到已知宇宙的边缘，

and everything in between.

以及位于中间的所有事物。

ND: Yeah. HH: It's amazing to me.

德雷克：嗯。哈默尔： 这对我来说是不可思议的。

And everybody had a role to play.

而且所有人都被赋予了各自的角色：

The beryllium miners

那些把我们用来做成镜面的铍

who mined the beryllium we used to make the mirrors

挖出来的矿工，

and the cable wrappers who wrapped the cables

还有那些使这个望远镜得以移动的

to allow this thing to move,

缆线包装工，

and the people who built the different instruments.

以及那些制造出不同仪器的人。

We have a suite of four different instruments,

我们在这里以及欧洲

cameras and spectrographs.

都有一组四只器具，

Both here, in Europe.

包括摄像头和摄谱仪。

You know, we all worked -- in Canada.

你知道，我们都在 加拿大一起干过。

Canada made the fine guidance sensor that allows us to point this thing.

加拿大制造了使我们得以 调节这机器朝向的精细制导传感器。

I mean, it's a truly international effort

我是说，这真的是全球大合作。

and it all comes together to create this revolution

这些所有加起来导致了

我们观察宇宙方式的革命。

in how we see the cosmos.

ND: Do you have a favorite

你在到目前为止被公布的照片中

among the images that have been released so far?

有个人最爱的吗？

HH: Well, they all have special aspects about them

这样说吧，它们都有 各自独特的方面，

that make me go, “Wow!”

使我惊呼，“哇哦”。

In the case of the “Cosmic Cliffs” image,

拿“宇宙峭壁”这张照片来说，

it’s beautiful, it’s blue in the dark and orange in the bottom.

它很美，暗中生蓝，下边染成橙色。

And, you know, I get excited about images like that

你懂得，我对这类照片感到兴奋，

because not only are they tremendously beautiful

不仅是因为它们非常美，

and evocative in a poetic way,

像诗歌般地唤起对过去的沉思，

but those are places where stars are being born.

而且因为这些是星星诞生的地方。

And some of the little pokey things that stick out,

还有些原本不起眼 的东西也突显出来，

that give it some of its dramatic structure,

并也促成了它最后令人震撼的结构。

you know, those are -- that’s star birth in the making.

你懂得，这是——那是 正在发生的星体诞生啊。

And I think that's just so cool.

所以我就觉得这太酷了。

And particularly when we use our infrared cameras,

而且特别是我们用红外相机的时候，

we can look inside some of those knobs and see the stars that are being born.

我们可以看到那些团状 区域里面星星正在生成。

And in some places, like the Orion Nebula --

而在有些地方，像猎户座星云——

there was just an image released of the Orion Nebula --

刚刚有张猎户座 星云的照片被放出来——

that’s places where planetary systems are forming.

这其中好多位置 都是行星系在成形。

We aren't seeing the planets,

我们还见不到行星，

but we're seeing the swirling disks of dust and gas

但我们看到了由尘埃 和气体组成的圆盘在

where those planets are being born.

那些星系将出现的地方回旋。

And even some of these galaxy images, while they may be static,

即使有些星系的照片， 他们也许是静止的，

like the "Stephan's Quintet" image,

像“史蒂芬的五重奏“的照片，

which is five galaxies --

上面是五个星系——

one of which is an interloper, it’s a foreground galaxy.

有一个是闯入者，是前景星系，

It’s not part of the other crew.

与其它的根本没关系。

ND: Just wanted to be in the shot.

德雷克：它想被同框拍到。

HH: It's just photobombing the other ones.

哈默尔：它就是来抢镜的。

But the four that are part of a cluster,

但其余的四个是某个星团的一部分；

what you learn from James Webb Space Telescope

而你通过韦伯学到的就是，

is that in the regions where they are interacting and overlapping,

在它们重叠和互相干涉的空间，

those regions light up in the infrared.

在红外图像上显示为高亮。

Those are places where the dust and the gas

那地方就是尘埃，气体

and the existing stars of those other galaxies,

和其它星系的现存星体，

when they are interacting, they are forming new stars.

在它们相互作用时产生新的星星。

They are creating new realms of star formation,

它们开辟着星体形成的新领域，

and they just light up in the infrared in that image.

并在红外图像上被标亮。

ND: Yeah. And I just wonder, like, what's missing from that picture?

嗯。我也想，这其中还缺少什么？

What can JWST fill in?

有什么空白韦伯还能填补的？

I mean, how much more color can it add?

我是说，它还可以增添哪些色彩？

HH: What JWST adds to our ongoing story

哈默尔：韦伯为 我们的探究旅程补充的，

is it adds new wavelengths of light

是那些我们没有足够 精密的技术以研究的

that we haven't had the sensitivity to study,

全新波长段的光。

and different wavelengths of light tell you different parts of this story.

而不同波长的光能给予你不同信息。

And we also use tools in astronomy called spectrographs,

我们在天文学中还用 这种叫做摄谱仪的器具，

and that is where we don't just take pictures,

就是我们不止是拍照片，

but we actually take the light

而是收到光束后

and we spread it out into its rainbow of colors.

将其拆散成像彩虹里的各类单色光。

And what we do is we look for what we call fingerprints in that light, if you will.

然后我们就寻找那些光里的特征。

Certain atoms and molecules tend to absorb specific colors of light,

不同原子与分子会吸收 相应色段的光波，

just by the very nature of their construction,

这是它们的结构性质，

and their motion and vibration.

运动轨迹和振动频率决定的。

They absorb certain colors of light.

它们吸收特定颜色的光线。

So by spreading the light out into a rainbow

所以是通过光的色散，

and looking for patterns in what light is missing,

找出缺失的光线频率，

that tells you what molecules are there.

让你得以知道存在着什么分子。

And not only does it tell you [which] are there,

而且不仅是告诉你有哪些分子，

it tells you their temperature.

还包括它们的温度，

It can tell you their pressures.

以及它们的压强。

By tracking carefully these lines in the spectrum,

细心研究光谱里的线条，

you can determine the motions of this material.

你还能得出此物质的运动状态。

And so we don't just have a static picture.

所以我们并不只有静像，

We can actually do

我们其实可以利用

three-dimensional tomography of astrophysical objects

这类光谱图的数据得出

by using this spectral light information.

天体物理物体的三维层析成像。

But as an astronomer, it's not just the pictures.

作为天文学家， 关心的不止是那些照片；

It is spreading that light out and looking into its constituents,

是将光色散后细究它的组成单位，

that’s where the real, deep science takes place.

这才是真正的，深层次的科学。

That’s where you get what stars are actually made of.

而这样也是你得出 星体元素构成的途径。

Like, helium, and the helium and hydrogen,

像氦和氢，

and beryllium and even iron and nickel.

铍，甚至是铁和镍。

How do you know that? You can't go there and weigh it.

这你怎样了解到？ 你总不能去给它们称重吧。

You learn it from the light.

你从光线中得出这些。

ND: Can you tell us about that instrument

德雷克：你能跟我们讲讲， 这个望远镜

and what it might be able to show us about Uranus and Neptune

能向我们展示天王星和海王星的，

或者是其它我们之前无法看到 的巨型行星的哪些方面吗？

and some of the other giant planets that we haven't been able to see before?

How is this telescope going to help us understand these worlds?

它能怎么样帮助我们 理解这些外星世界？

HH: Let's say you wanted to study Jupiter's rings, right?

哈默尔：那么假设你想 研究木星光环，行吗？

We know Jupiter has rings. Voyager saw them.

我们知道木星有着光环。 这是旅行者卫星拍到的。

But we know most planetary rings change with time.

但我们也知道大多行星的 光环随着时间变化。

Trying to image the faint ring of Jupiter

试图给耀眼的木星周围的

next to the incredibly bright planet of Jupiter

微弱光环造影是极其困难的。

is extraordinarily difficult.

The rings are a million times fainter than the planet,

那些光环比星球本身要 暗一百万倍还不止，

and they're right next to it.

并且与它贴得很近。

But James Webb Space Telescope, the sensitivity is so good

但韦伯望远镜是那么的精密，

and the imaging capability is so good

成像能力是那么的优异，

that the scattered light from Jupiter

以至于来自木星的散射光

does not spread even out to the local place where the rings are.

甚至都未扩散到光环的区域。

So in our first images, engineering images of Jupiter,

那么在我们最初的图片， 为测试散射光线在相机上的

that were taken just to test the scattered light on the camera --

效果而拍的调试图片里——

they took a couple of sharp, short images of Jupiter

他们快速地拍了几张 短时曝光的木星图片，

and moved Jupiter closer and closer to the fine guidance sensor

并将灵敏的制导 传感器慢慢转向木星，

to see if it would screw up our guiding --

以检查这是否会让制导失灵。

even in those short engineering images, the rings are right there.

但即使是在那些调试 照片里，光环清晰可见。

Beautiful.

很完美。

Just totally resolved right next to the planet a million times brighter.

在亮一百万倍的星球 边儿轻松解决了。

ND: Well, can we talk about planets outside the solar system, too?

德雷克：那么，我们能 谈谈太阳系以外的行星吗？

HH: Sure. Yeah. What's your favorite?

哈默尔：非常乐意。 你最喜爱的是什么？

ND: What's your favorite?

德雷克：那你呢？

HH: Oh, I don't know. I've got a couple of favorites.

哈默尔：嗯，我不清楚。 我有好几个喜欢的。

ND: Yeah?

德雷克：那比如？

HH: I think a lot of astronomers’ ... favorite system right now

哈默尔：我觉得很多天文学家 目前最为之着迷的星系是

is the TRAPPIST-1 system.

TRAPPIST-1 系。

ND: Yeah. Tell me about it.

德雷克：嗯，你详细说说。

HH: TRAPPIST-1 is -- that's the name of the star.

哈默尔：TRAPPIST-1 是... 那是这颗恒星的名字。

TRAPPIST is the name of the survey, right?

TRAPPIST-1 是家喻户晓，不是吗？

But it looked at this star and it discovered

韦伯望向这颗恒星，并发现

that there are at least seven planets orbiting this star.

至少有七颗行星在 围绕这颗恒星运行。

And most of those planets seem to be Earth-sized.

而且它们大多数与地球大小相近。

在 TRAPPIST-1 系中，

In the TRAPPIST-1 system,

several of the planets are the right distance from the host star

数个行星与主星的距离合适，

that water could be liquid on the surface of them.

使液态水在上面得以存在。

We call that the habitable zone.

我们称这些为宜居带。

And you and I could have a long talk about what habitability actually means.

关于“宜居”的定义 我们之间也能谈很长时间。

But in our solar system, at least on our Earth,

但反正在我们的太阳系， 至少在我们的地球，

the only place that we know life exists, there's a lot of water.

我们知道的唯一存在 生命的地方，那儿有许多水。

And so when we're talking about looking for habitable planets,

所以当我们讲到 寻找适合居住的星球，

we look at planets that are at the right distance from their host star

我们会去找到主星距离正好的恒星，

that they could have water on them.

并且上面得有水。

So that TRAPPIST system that we know that there are planets

所以 TRAPPIST-1 星系我们知道包含

in potentially habitable region,

一些在可存活生命的区域的星球，

and that those planets are roughly Earth-sized,

并且和地球体型差不多；

they are everybody's favorite right now

这目前符合所有人的口味

for JWST to take a look at with our spectrographs.

让韦伯来利用摄谱仪研究研究。

ND: Yeah.

德雷克：嗯。

Do you think there is life beyond Earth somewhere?

你觉得地球之外还会有生命吗？

And if so, where?

如果有，在哪里？

HH: OK, so let me answer the second question first.

哈默尔：好的，那我 先来回答第二个问题。

This question of, “is there alien life out there?”

这个是否有外星人存在的问题，

I usually break it up into two things.

我一般会分成两部分。

One is a thought experiment about the size of the universe,

一个是关于宇宙大小，宇宙规模的

the scale of the universe,

思想实验。

just how many stars there are in our galaxy.

即我们的银河系里有多少颗恒星。

And then how many galaxies?

那么又有多少个星系呢？

There's billions of stars just in our local galaxy.

我们所处的银河系就有 多达几十亿颗恒星，

And there's billions of galaxies out there.

而外面更是有几十亿个星系。

And we talk about whether or not life could have formed

所以我们在探讨在我们宇宙持续的

over the billions of years that our universe has existed

几十亿年的时间段里，在几十亿个 各自囊括了几十亿颗恒星的星系里，

with these billions of galaxies, each of which has billions of stars.

生命是否可能形成。

I say life has to exist somewhere out there.

我觉得生命在外面某处必然存在。

Somewhere. [It] has to be out there.

在某个地方肯定是有的。

Does that mean that aliens have come to Earth and visited us?

这是否意味着外星人 会来地球造访我们？

No, that's a totally separate question.

不，那完全是一个另外的问题。

I just -- it's not a related question.

就——这个问题并不相关。

That's a more psychological question.

这更像是个心理学上的议题。

I'm more interested in the science aspect of the question.

而我更对这个科学的方面感兴趣。

I think we need to start with terrestrial-sized planets

我觉得找到类地行星大小的，

that are the right distance to have water on them,

并且公转半径恰好使得上面 有水存在的行星是第一步。

because those are the conditions required to create life as we know it on Earth.

因为在那种情况下才能 产生类似我们地球上的生物。

And the only kind of life that we'll initially recognize

而且我们一上来会认同的生物，

is going to be life like ours, I think.

我觉得就是像我们世界的这种。

ND: So JWST is one tool that we can use in the search for life beyond Earth.

德雷克：那么韦伯是我们能 用来搜寻地外生物的一样工具。

But there are others, including within our own solar system:

但还有其它的，包括在 我们太阳系这儿的器具：

some of the rovers that are on Mars,

有些火星上的探测器

currently looking for signs of ancient biosignatures

正在岩石中寻找

or ancient signs of alien life in the rocks there,

古老的生物标志物 或外星生物的痕迹；

but also some of the missions that are being planned

还有部分正在计划中的

to the outer solar system,

前往外太阳系，

and specifically some of the moons there.

具体来说是那里的一些卫星的任务。

I'm curious about whether you think it's possible that life exists here

我很好奇，你觉得 是否有可能有生物存在于

in our local neighborhood,

我们地球以外的

but beyond Earth.

邻近星系。

HH: Hey, anything is possible.

哈默尔：什么都有可能嘛。

I've learned in my career never to deal in absolutes

我在我的事业里学到了 永远不要极端地看待问题，

because the universe is great at throwing curveballs at you.

因为宇宙很擅长对你施“障眼法”。

You know, when we have our rovers on Mars

比如我们在火星上有探测器，

and our orbiters that are doing really exquisite orbital imaging,

还有轨道飞行器 在进行很棒的轨道成像，

it's clear that there's evidence that at one time there was liquid water

那么很明显地有证据指出 火星表面曾经有过液态水。

on the surface of Mars.

There’s sedimentation,

包括沉积物，

there’s a chemical evidence,

化学证据，

there's, you know, actually water trapped

还有现在锁在火星

in the ices in the poles of Mars right now.

两极冰盖里的水。

And so it could very well be that at some time in the past

所以很可能地，

that planet had liquid water

过去某个时段这个星球有液态水，

and may have had the conditions for life to form.

并且也许有着允许生命形成的条件。

We don't know.

但我们无法确定。

It could be that life formed there first

也有可能是生命先在那里出现，

and transmitted itself inward to us. We could be Martians.

然后往中心传到了我们这里。

ND: We could be Martians.

德雷克：我们可能是火星人。

HH: I don't know. We don't know the answer to that.

哈默尔：我不清楚。 我们不知道这个答案。

Using our definition of looking at places where there's liquid water,

利用我们寻找液态水的守则，

you know, people sort of initially confined it

人们最开始受限于

to a certain distance from the host star --

离主星一定距离内的范围，

sort of from the Earth just barely out to Mars

即从地球向外辐射， 刚好能够到火星，

and maybe inward a little bit,

或许也往太阳那儿去，

not quite as inward as Venus,

但并没有远到金星。

but they kind of limited it to that region,

反正人们把它局限于这个区域，

saying, “Well, Earth is the Goldilocks zone.

宣称，“可居住地带 正好就在地球这儿，

That's why it's not too hot, not too cold.

这便是为什么地球不冷不热，

That’s why life is here.”

也是为什么生命在此持续。”

But we've learned more about our solar system

但我们通过航天器与望远镜

with the spacecraft and telescopes.

更多地了解了我们的太阳系。

And one of the things that we have learned with our missions

我们从这些派到木星与土星 系统的任务中学到的东西之一

to the Jupiter system and the Saturn system

is that some of the larger moons in those systems

就是这些系统里的有些较大卫星

do have evidence of liquid water in their interiors.

也有液态水存在于内部的证据。

More water on Jupiter's moon,

木星卫星上的水——

more water inside Jupiter's moon, Europa,

木星卫星，木卫二里面的水

that we have on the surface of the Earth, which is kind of crazy. Think about it.

比我们地球表面的水还要多。 这简直是难以置信。

ND: It’s mind-boggling to think about.

德雷克：确实是挺不可思议。

HH: The question is, could life form in that water?

哈默尔：那么问题是， 那样的水里会有生物吗？

And it gets back to what are the ingredients you need for life?

所以又回到了产生生物的必需因素。

You need water, but you also need some kind of an energy source.

你得有水，但也要某种能量源；

You need some kind of a surface

你得有某种生物依附着它

on which life can do its chemical thing to form.

并在化学层面形成的“表面”。

I'm not an astrobiologist, so I don't know what the right lingo is,

我不是天体生物学家， 所以我也不清楚术语是什么；

but you need to have a surface for stuff to happen.

但反正你需要一类平台使反应发生。

And does Europa have those things?

那么木卫二上有这些吗？

Well, it doesn't have them on its surface.

它的表面肯定是没有的。

Its surface is just ice.

那儿只有冰。

But we know from our various flybys of this --

但我们通过我们人造 卫星的几次飞越得出——

we were able to map out its structure, its internal structure,

我们得以通过分析那儿的 磁场以及其与地质的的联系，

by looking at the magnetic field and how it interacts with it,

和研究光线的引力偏转，

by looking at gravitational deflection --

来绘制出它的结构，内部的结构——

we know that it probably has a solid core,

它大概有个实心内核，

and we also know that Europa is warm.

也知道了木卫二气候温暖。

Now, why would this moon out there at Jupiter's distance,

那么，这个在木星那种距离的卫星，

why would it be warm, right?

为什么会是暖的呢？

Why would Jupiter’s other moon, Io, have active volcanoes?

为什么木星的另一卫星， 木卫一会有活跃的火山呢？

That's really warm. That's crazy warm.

那是非常暖和了， 超乎想象的“温暖”。

And the answer is these moons actually interact with one another.

那么答案就是这些 卫星其实在相互作用。

They do like a little resonant dance with each other as they orbit Jupiter.

它们每天环绕木星时 都在跳一支“共振之舞”。

And as they orbit one another and interact with one another,

那么在它们互相纠缠，互相影响时，

the gravity of these moons makes very tiny flexes

这些卫星的引力场

出现形状像卫星自身的微小波动。

in the shape of the moons,

but the flexes repeat over time

但这些波动随着时间重复，

and that repeating warms the planet.

便使得卫星升温。

I used to illustrate this for kids with old credit cards.

我曾经这样为小孩来描述：

If you take an old credit card

你拿一张待丢弃的信用卡，

and you bend it, bend it, bend it, bend it,

不停地把它折来折去，

and you feel where you're bending, it's warm.

然后去感受弯折的地方， 那里是热的。

It's really the same process.

这其实是相同的原理。

It's that flexing is what warms these.

是波动伸缩在使它们升温。

So for Europa in orbit around Jupiter,

那么关于环绕木星的木卫二，

we have the water, we have the rocky surface deep inside.

那儿有水和位置很深的岩石层，

We have warmth.

还有适宜温度。

We've got this energy source thing.

能量来源也不缺。

So is it possible that life has formed there?

那么是否有概率生命已在那儿形成？

Sure.

是有可能。

Who am I to say no?

我怎么能给出否定呢？

I mean, what do I know?

我是说，我又知道什么呢？

I mean, the universe is much more complex than I can imagine.

我的意思是，整个宇宙比我 想象的要复杂得多。

So we are building a spacecraft called the Clipper spacecraft,

那么我们正在制造一架名为“欧罗巴快帆” （Europa Clipper）的航天器。

which is going to go to the Jupiter system

它将飞向木星系统

and it's going to orbit Jupiter,

并环绕木星，

but it's going to do multiple flybys of the moon Europa.

但将有机会对木卫二进行多次飞越。

ND: So, Heidi, word on the street is that you have a favorite moon.

德雷克：那么，海蒂， 听说你有个格外珍爱的卫星。

What is it?

是哪个？

And there's only one right answer to this question.

只可以有一个答案。

HH: My favorite moon is Triton.

哈默尔：我的最爱是海卫一。

ND: It's a pretty good one. HH: It's not the right one, though?

德雷克：这也挺不错。 哈默尔：但并不是“正确”的那个。

ND: I was going to say Iapetus.

德雷克：我本来猜是土卫八。

HH: No, no, no, no.

哈默尔：不，不，不是的。

We're going to have a long conversation about that.

我们得好好交流一下。

ND: Tell me why Triton is better.

德雷克：那么告诉我， 为什么海卫一更好。

HH: Triton is such a cool moon.

哈默尔：海卫一 这个卫星是如此之酷。

It goes in a retrograde orbit backwards around the planet.

它沿着一条逆行轨道 反向环绕海王星。

We think it was actually a Kuiper Belt object

我们觉得这原先是 一个柯伊伯带天体，

that got too close to Neptune and was captured by Neptune.

后来离海王星太近而被其引力捕获。

And it's a big moon.

而且这个卫星体型不小。

I mean, if you want Pluto to be a planet,

我是说，如果你认为 冥王星该被算作一个行星，

I don't know where you stand on that issue,

我不清楚你是怎么想的。

but Triton is twin to Pluto.

但海卫一与冥王星是孪生关系。

So it's like a planet in orbit around another planet.

所以就像一个行星在 环绕另一个行星似的。

ND: But it’s going backwards.

德雷克：不过是反向的。

HH: But it's going backwards around the planet.

哈默尔：除了它是反着环绕的。

And when Voyager flew by in 1989,

并且当旅行者在 1989 年飞越时，

it actually flew kind of close,

它飞得还挺近，

so we got a good view of one half of it.

于是我们清楚地看到它的半边。

And it's got remarkable terrain and it has active cryovolcanoes on it.

它上面有着独特的 地形和活跃的冰火山。

There are volcanoes, ice volcanoes, erupting on Triton, like, in real time.

海卫一上有火山 与冰火山都实时喷发着。

So that's pretty amazing.

这让人眼前一亮。

I mean, it's got an atmosphere, right?

而且，它还有个大气层，不是吗？

And it could have a liquid water ocean inside it.

也有可能内部是 液态水构成的海洋。

So it may be an ocean world.

所以也许它是遍布海洋的世界。

And since we know it's active, because we saw it with Voyager,

而且既然我们从旅行者的 图片知道它是活跃的，

that may be another abode for life.

这也许是生命的另一个家园。

ND: So, Heidi, how did you become interested in astronomy?

德雷克：那么，海蒂， 你是怎么对天文学感兴趣的？

What was it that lit that fire for you?

是什么点起了你的 这把“求知之火” 呢？

HH: It's kind of a goofy story, but I think in one sense,

哈默尔：这可能听起来 有点憨，但反正从某个角度，

I became an astronomer because I used to get carsick.

我是因为以前会晕车 而成为天文学家的。

ND: Seriously?

德雷克：认真的吗？

HH: My family would go on road trips

哈默尔：我们一家会去自驾游，

and, you know,

然后，你懂得，

I would be in the back of the car and I'd be so sick and I couldn't read.

我在汽车后座，难受得无法阅读。

I couldn't do anything except stare out the window.

我除了看向窗外什么也不能做。

And at night, staring out the window,

在夜晚，往窗外看时，

I started to recognize star patterns like the Big Dipper and Orion.

我开始认出像北斗 七星和猎户座的星图，

And I became more familiar with them

然后越来越习惯它们，

because that's all I could do is to stare out at the sky.

因为我唯一能做的就是盯着窗外。

And so, you know, I think that sort of kindled an interest for me.

所以，我觉得这算是 为我培养了兴趣。

But I had a math teacher who one day took her class of four students aside

另外我有个数学老师，

她有天把整个班 四位学生拉到一旁，

and said, "Where are you young people planning to go to college?"

并问道，”你们年轻人 打算去哪所大学？“

And when it came to my turn, I said, "Penn State."

轮到我时，我说， ”宾夕法尼亚州立。”

She said, "Why?"

她问，”为什么？“

And I said, “Well, my dad went to Penn State and I live in Pennsylvania.”

我回答说，“嗯，我爸在那儿 读的书，况且我也住那儿。”

She said, "I think you should apply to MIT."

她便说，“我觉得你该申请 MIT。”

ND: Wow.

德雷克：哇噻。

HH: And I said, "I don't even know what that is."

哈默尔：我回答说， ”我都不知道那是什么。”

So she encouraged me and I applied.

最后在她的鼓励下我去申请了。

When it came time for letters of recommendation,

当需要写推荐信的时候，

I asked my chemistry teacher to write me a letter, and he said no.

我去找我的化学老师， 但他没有答应。

And I said, "Why not?"

于是我说，”为什么不呢？”

He said, "You'll never get into MIT."

他回答，”你怎么也进不了 MIT 的。“

So I asked my history teacher instead,

所以我去问了我的历史老师，

and she did write a letter and I did get into MIT.

而她为我写了推荐信， 我也成功被 MIT 录取。

And when I brought back my acceptance letter

而当我拿着录取信回来

and showed it to my chemistry teacher -- “Look, I got into MIT.” --

给我的化学老师看，

he said, "It's only because you're a woman.

他说，“只是因为你是女生。

They have quotas to fill."

他们要达到一定的配额。”

This is in 1978 when people said things like that to your face.

那是 1978 年，人们在 你面前毫不掩饰地这样说。

That made me angry more than anything.

这使我异同寻常地愤怒，

So I was determined to go to MIT and --

所以我下定决心要去 MIT 并…

graduate, you know.

你懂得，毕业。

ND: What are some of the most nagging unanswered questions in your mind

德雷克：你脑海中那些 最放不下的，天文领域的

that exist in astronomy?

未解之谜是什么？

Any field in astronomy, could be anywhere in the universe,

天文学的任何分支， 可以涉及宇宙的任何部分，

close to home, far away.

离家不远或是天涯海角。

What bugs you? What keeps you up at night?

什么占据着你？ 什么使你夜不能寐？

HH: How did the first stars and galaxies form in the universe?

哈默尔：宇宙最初的恒星 和星系究竟是怎么形成的？

We have lots of models and theories,

存在许多模型与理论，

but to be able to make actual observations as early as we can,

但要在我们这会儿 就做出实质性的观察，

to tie together some of the disparate observations we have

将我们互不相干的观测结果 用一条逻辑清晰的脉络

with a coherent story.

联系起来；

I think that is an area that is very, very interesting right now.

这我认为是目前 非常值得尝试探索的。

And of course, that's why James Webb Space Telescope was built,

当然了，这也是韦伯望远镜的初衷，

to add a piece to that story.

填补这宇宙历史拼图的一小块。

ND: Uh-huh.

德雷克：嗯...

HH: I think I'm also interested

哈默尔：我还对我们 所处的行星系统感兴趣，

in how our planetary system that we live in,

how did it in particular come to be and how did it come to be habitable?

它是怎么形成的， 而什么使它充满生机？

We know this is the only one ...

我们知道这是仅有的，无二的

the only system that we know is inhabited, right,

我们所知在太阳系里 滋养生命的系统。

is our solar system. ND: Right.

HH: Is it required that you have giant planets in the outer system

是否必须在外太阳系存在巨型行星，

and small planets in the inner solar system

内太阳系存在较小的

to make habitability?

以迎合生命的需求？

Or is it just by happenstance?

还是说这都是碰巧呢？

Did you have to have a Jupiter to make it habitable?

必须得有木星才让其变得宜居吗？

Did you have to have a Neptune to sweep out through the Kuiper Belt

得有海王星在柯伊伯带捕获

and deliver volatiles to the inner solar system,

易挥发物，如水之类的，

water and stuff?

并送至内太阳系吗？

I mean, that's so interesting. And ...

这是那么的催生兴趣，并且...

And it touches us as humans.

它与我们人类息息相关。

Like, how did we come to be?

比如，我们怎么出现的？

It's part of our story, it's part of our life story.

这也是我们的故事， 我们的生死之书的一部分。

So I'm very interested in that question as well.

于是我也对这个问题很感兴趣。

And we still have so many observations left to make,

我们还得做许多观测，

both within our solar system and in the greater universe.

在太阳系内，以及在更浩瀚的宇宙。

I think astronomers will be busy for a long time to come.

我觉得天文学家 离歇息的时间还早着呢。