請雙擊下方英文字幕播放視頻。
譯者: Lilian Chiu
審譯者: Adrienne Lin
00:12
Joan Blades: Do you have
politically diverse friends?
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瓊安布雷德:你是否有
各種政治傾向的朋友?
00:15
What do you talk about with them?
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你和他們都談什麼?
00:18
I'm a progressive; I live
in a town full of progressives,
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我是改革派;我住在都是
進步人士的小鎮中,
00:20
and 15 years ago, I didn't have
any conservative friends.
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十五年前,我沒有
任何保守派的朋友。
00:24
Now I have a wonderful mix of friends,
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現在,我有各種政治傾向的好朋友,
00:27
and they include John.
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包括約翰在內。
00:29
John Gable: I am not a progressive.
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約翰蓋博:我不是改革派。
00:31
I'm a Republican who grew up
in a Republican family
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我是共和黨,在共和黨家庭中長大,
00:34
in the conservative South,
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我家在保守的南方,
00:35
and even worked in Republican politics,
locally and at the national level.
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我甚至在共和黨政治圈工作,
地方性和全國性的層級都有。
00:39
But the last 24 years,
I've been in technology
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但,過去 24 年,我都在科技業,
00:42
and living in a very progressive area.
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且住在非常改革派的區域。
00:44
So I have a lot of progressive friends,
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我有很多改革派的朋友,
00:46
including Joan.
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包括瓊安。
00:48
JB: I was born in Berkeley, California,
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瓊安:我在加州柏克萊出生,
00:51
a notoriously progressive college town.
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一個以改革派聞名的大學鎮。
00:54
And I live there now.
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我現在也住在那裡。
00:56
In 1998, six months into the Monica
Lewinsky-Clinton impeachment scandal,
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1998 年,萊文斯基醜聞過後半年,
01:02
I helped cofound MoveOn.org
with a one-sentence petition:
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我協助共同創立了 MoveOn.org
(走下去.org),請願只有一句話:
01:07
"Congress must immediately
censure the president
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「國會必須要立即譴責總統,
01:10
and move on to pressing issues
facing the nation."
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然後就繼續走下去,
去處理國家面臨的迫切議題。」
01:13
Now, that was actually
a very unifying petition in many ways.
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其實在許多層面上,
那是個很統一的請願。
01:17
You could love Clinton or hate Clinton
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你也許愛柯林頓,也許恨柯林頓,
01:19
and agree that the best thing
for the country was to move on.
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但都能同意對國家
最好的做法就是走下去。
01:23
As the leader of MoveOn,
I saw the polarization just continue.
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身為 MoveOn 的領導人,
我看到兩極化仍然持續著。
01:28
And I found myself wondering
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我發現,我很納悶,
01:31
why I saw things so differently
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為什麼我和美國其他地區的許多人,
01:34
than many people
in other parts of the country.
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在看事情的角度上有這麼大的不同?
01:36
So in 2005, when I had an opportunity
to get together with grassroots leaders
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所以,2005 年,我有機會
跟一些跨政治分裂的
01:42
across the political divide,
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草根領導人聚會,
01:45
I grabbed it.
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我抓住了機會。
01:47
And I became friends with a lot of people
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我和許多人成為朋友,
01:49
I never had a chance to talk to before.
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我以前都沒機會和這些人說話。
01:53
And that included leadership
in the Christian Coalition,
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包括了美國基督徒聯盟的領導階層,
01:56
often seen as on the right
the way MoveOn is seen as on the left.
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他們被視為右派,
而 MoveOn 被視為左派。
02:00
And this lead to me
showing up on Capitol Hill
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這導致我出現在國會山莊,
02:04
with one of the Christian Coalition
leaders, my friend,
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同行的是美國基督徒聯盟的
一位領導者,也是我的朋友,
02:08
to lobby for net neutrality.
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去遊說網路中立性。
02:10
That was powerful.
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那很強大。
02:11
We turned heads.
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我們引起了注意。
02:13
So this work was transformational for me.
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這份工作轉化了我。
02:17
And I found myself wondering:
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我發現我在納悶:
02:20
How could vast numbers of people
have the opportunity
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為什麼這麼多人有機會
02:24
to really connect with people
that have very different views?
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可以真正和人連結,
卻有如此不同的觀點?
02:28
JG: I was born Oneida, Tennessee,
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約翰:我生在田納西的奧奈達,
02:31
right across the state border
from a small coal mining town,
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橫越州邊界,來自一個煤礦小鎮,
02:35
Stearns, Kentucky.
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肯塔基的斯特恩斯。
02:37
And I lived there
for the first few years of my life,
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我人生中的前幾年住在那裡,
02:39
before moving to another small town,
Frankfort, Kentucky.
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接著搬到另一個小鎮,
肯塔基的法蘭克福。
基本上,我在美國小鎮中長大,
02:42
Basically, I grew up
in small-town America,
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從骨子裡就很保守。
02:44
conservative at its heart.
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02:46
Now, Stearns and Berkeley --
they're a little different.
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斯特恩斯和柏克萊-它們有點不同。
02:50
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
02:53
So in the '90s I moved out west
to a progressive area
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在九○年代,我搬出去,
到了西邊的改革派地區,
02:57
to work in technology --
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去科技業工作-
02:58
worked at Microsoft, worked at Netscape.
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在微軟工作,在網景工作。
03:00
I actually became the product manager lead
for Netscape Navigator,
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我真的當上了
「網景領航員」的產品經理,
那是第一個普及的網路瀏覽器。
03:04
the first popular web browser.
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03:06
Now in the early days of the internet,
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在網際網路的初期,
03:08
we were just moved
and inspired by a vision:
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我們是被一個遠景給感動和鼓舞的:
03:11
when we're connected to all
these different people around the world
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當我們能夠與全世界各種不同的人、
03:14
and all these different ideas,
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不同的想法連結,
03:16
we'll be able to make great decisions,
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我們將能夠做出很好的決策,
03:17
and we'll be able to appreciate each other
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我們將能夠欣賞彼此,
03:20
for the beautiful diversity
that the whole world has to offer.
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欣賞世界所帶給我們的美好多樣性。
03:23
Now I also, 20 years ago, gave a speech
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二十年前,我也做過一次演說,
03:24
saying it might not work out that way,
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說將來可能不會是那樣的,
03:27
that we might actually be trained
to discriminate against each other
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我們可能其實會被訓練成用新的方式
03:31
in new ways.
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歧視彼此。
03:34
So what happened?
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所以,發生了什麼事?
03:36
It's not like we just woke up one day
and decided to hate each other more.
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並不是我們有一天醒來
就決定要再多恨彼此一點。
03:40
Here's what happened.
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發生的狀況是這樣的。
03:42
There's just too much noise --
too many people, too many ideas --
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有太多噪音了-太多人、太多想法-
03:45
so we use technology
to filter it out a little bit.
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所以我們用科技來一點一點過濾。
03:47
And what happens?
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接著發生什麼事?
03:49
It lets in ideas I already agree with.
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我放行的是我已經認同的想法。
03:52
It lets in the popular ideas,
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普及的想法會被放行,
03:54
it lets in people just like me
who think just like me.
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和我一樣的人,想法
和我一樣的人會被放行。
03:56
That sounds kind of good, right?
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聽起來很好,對嗎?
03:58
Well, not necessarily,
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不見得,
04:01
because two very scary things happen
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因為當我們的世界觀這麼狹窄時,
04:04
when we have such narrow worldviews.
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有兩件很可怕的事發生了。
04:06
First, we become more extreme
in our beliefs.
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第一,我們在信念上變得很極端。
04:11
Second, we become less tolerant
of anybody who's different than we are.
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第二,對於和我們不同的人,
我們的容忍度降低了。
04:18
Does this sound familiar?
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聽起來很耳熟嗎?
04:20
Does this sound like modern America?
The modern world?
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聽起來像是現代美國嗎?現代世界?
04:24
Well, the good news is
that technology is changing,
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好消息是,科技在改變,
04:26
and it could change for the better.
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它能變得更好。
04:28
And that's, in fact,
why I started AllSides.com --
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事實上,那就是為什麼我創造了
AllSides.com(所有各方.com),
04:31
to create technologies and services
to free us from these filter bubbles.
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為了創造出能將我們從
過濾泡泡中解放的技術和服務。
04:35
The very first thing we did was create
technology that identifies bias,
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我們做的第一件事就是
創造出能辨別偏見的技術,
04:38
so we could show different
perspectives side by side
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這樣我們才能把
不同的觀點一起呈現,
04:42
to free us from the filter
bubbles of news media.
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讓我們脫離新聞媒體的過濾泡泡。
04:46
And then I met Joan.
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接著,我遇到了瓊安。
04:49
JB: So I met John outside
of Washington, DC,
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瓊安:我在華盛頓
特區外認識了約翰,
04:52
with an idealistic group
of cross-partisan bridge builders,
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還有一個理想主義團體,
成員都是在建立跨越黨派橋樑的人,
04:58
and we wanted to re-weave
the fabric of our communities.
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我們想要重建我們社群的結構。
05:02
We believe that our differences
can be a strength,
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我們相信,我們的歧見
可以成為優勢,
05:06
that our values can be complimentary
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我們的價值觀可以是互補的,
05:09
and that we have to overcome the fight
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且我們得要克服這鬥爭,
05:12
so that we can honor everyone's values
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讓我們能夠尊重每個人的價值觀,
05:14
and not lose any of our own.
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同時不失去自己的。
05:17
I went for this wonderful walk with John,
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我和約翰的對談非常美好,
05:19
where I started learning
about the work he was doing
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談話中,我開始了解他做的工作,
05:21
to pierce the filter bubble.
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刺穿過濾泡泡。
05:23
It was powerful;
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那很強大;
05:25
it was brilliant.
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那很出色。
05:27
Living in separate narratives is not good.
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住在不同的故事當中並非好事。
05:30
We can't even have a conversation
or do collaborative problem-solving
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當我們沒有共同的事實時,
我們甚至無法交談
05:34
when we don't share the same facts.
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或是共同解決問題。
05:38
JG: So one thing you take away from today
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約翰:所以,今天你們能學到的是,
05:40
is if Joan Blades asks you
to go on a walk,
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如果瓊安布雷德請你去散步,
05:43
go on that walk.
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那就去散步。
05:44
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
05:45
It changed things. It really changed
the way I was thinking about things.
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它會造成改變。
它真的改變了我對事物的看法。
05:49
To free ourselves from the filter bubbles,
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要讓我們脫離過濾泡泡,
05:51
we can't just think about
information filter bubbles,
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我們不能只想著資訊過濾泡泡,
05:54
but also relationship
and social filter bubbles.
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還要去想關係以及社交過濾泡泡。
05:56
You see, we human beings -- we're not
nearly as smart as we think we are.
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我們人類沒有自己想的那麼聰明。
06:00
We don't generally make
decisions intellectually.
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我們通常不會做出明智的決策。
06:02
We make them emotionally, intuitively,
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我們的決策是情緒的、直覺的,
06:04
and then we use our big old brains
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然後再用又大又老的腦袋
06:06
to rationalize anything
we want to rationalize.
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來把我們想合理化的一切給合理化。
06:08
We're not really like Vulcans
like Mr. Spock,
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我們並不像瓦肯人,不像史巴克,
06:12
we're more like bold cowboys
like Captain Kirk,
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我們較像魯莽的牛仔,像柯克艦長,
06:15
or passionate idealists like Dr. McCoy.
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或是熱情的理想主義者,
像老骨頭麥考伊。
06:19
OK, for those of y'all who prefer
the new "Star Trek" crew,
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如果你們比較喜歡新的
《星艦迷航記》成員,
06:22
here you go.
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那就給你們吧。
06:23
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
06:24
JB: Don't forget the strong women!
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瓊安:別忘了堅強的女性們!
06:26
JG: Come on, strong women. OK.
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約翰:來吧,堅強的女性。
06:28
JB: All right.
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瓊安:好。
06:29
John and I are both "Star Trek" fans.
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約翰和我都是《星艦迷航記》迷。
06:31
What's not to love about a future
with that kind of optimism?
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有著那種樂觀主義的未來,
怎麼會不讓人喜歡?
06:36
JG: And having a good future in mind
is a big deal -- very important.
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約翰:心中有個美好的未來
是至關緊要的-非常重要。
06:40
And understanding what the problem is
is very important.
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了解問題是什麼,是非常重要的。
06:42
But we have to do something.
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但我們得要採取行動。
06:44
So what do we do?
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我們要怎麼做?
06:45
It's actually not that hard.
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其實沒有那麼難。
06:46
We have to add diversity to our lives --
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我們得在我們的生活中加入多樣性-
06:48
not just information,
but relationship diversity.
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不只是資訊,還有關係的多樣性。
06:52
And by diversity,
I mean big "D" diversity,
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我所指的多樣性是很廣泛的,
06:54
not just racial and gender,
which are very important,
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種族和性別是很重要,但不只這些,
06:57
but also ...
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還有…
06:59
diversity of age, like young and old;
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年齡的多樣性,比如年輕及年邁、
07:02
rural and urban;
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郊區及市區、
07:04
liberal and conservative;
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自由及保守,
07:07
in the US, Democrat and Republican.
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還有在美國的民主黨及共和黨。
07:10
Now, one of the great examples
of somebody freeing themselves
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有一個很棒的例子
可以說明人要如何脫離
07:13
from their filter bubbles
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他們的過濾泡泡,
07:14
and getting a more diverse life
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提高人生中的多樣性,
07:16
is, once again, next to me -- Joan.
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這例子又是,我旁邊的瓊安。
07:19
JB: So the question is:
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瓊安:所以,問題是:
07:21
Who among you has had
relationships lost or harmed
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在座各位有誰遇過因為政治、宗教、
07:25
due to differences in politics,
religion or whatever?
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或其他歧見而造成關係斷絕或受損?
07:29
Raise your hands.
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請舉手。
07:31
Yeah.
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好。
07:33
This year I have talked to so many people
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今年,我和好多人談過,
07:35
that have experienced that kind of loss.
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他們都經歷過這種損失。
07:41
I've seen tears well up in people's eyes
as they talk about family members
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我見過人們在談他們疏遠的家人時
07:45
from whom they're estranged.
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眼中泛著淚光。
07:48
Living Room Conversations were designed
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「客廳對談」的設計目的
07:51
to begin to heal political
and personal differences.
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是要治癒政治和個人的歧見。
07:57
They're simple conversations
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它們是很簡單的對談,
07:59
where two friends with different
viewpoints each invite two friends
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觀點不同的兩位朋友,
各自邀請兩位朋友,
08:04
for structured conversation,
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來做結構性的對談,
08:05
where everyone's agreed
to some simple ground rules:
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對談的每個人都要同意
遵守簡單的基本規則:
08:08
curiosity, listening,
respect, taking turns --
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好奇心、傾聽、尊重、輪流-
08:12
everything we learned
in kindergarten, right?
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都是我們在幼稚園學到的,對吧?
08:14
Really easy.
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很簡單。
08:16
So by the time you're talking about
the topic you've agreed to talk about,
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所以,當你在談論
你同意要談的話題時,
08:20
you actually have the sense that,
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你其實會感覺到:
08:22
"You know, I kind of like this person,"
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「你知道嗎,我還算喜歡這個人。」
08:24
and you listen to each other differently.
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且你會用不同的方式傾聽彼此。
08:26
That's kind of a human condition;
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那是一種人性,
08:28
we listen differently
to people we care about.
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我們會用不同方式傾聽我們在乎的人。
08:31
And then there's reflection
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接著會有反思,
08:33
and possibly next steps.
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可能會有後續步驟。
08:36
This is a deep listening practice;
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這是深度傾聽的練習,
08:38
it's never a debate.
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從來就不是辯論。
08:41
And that's incredibly powerful.
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那是非常強大的。
08:43
These conversations
in our own living rooms
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在我們自家客廳和不同觀點的人
08:47
with people who have different viewpoints
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所做的這些交談,
08:50
are an incredible adventure.
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是場非常棒的冒險。
08:52
We rediscover that we can respect
and even love people
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我們重新發現,我們能夠
尊重和我們不同的人,
08:55
that are different from us.
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甚至去愛他們。
08:58
And it's powerful.
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這很強大。
09:01
JG: So, what are you curious about?
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約翰:所以,你對什麼感到好奇?
09:04
JB: What's the conversation
you yearn to have?
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瓊安:你渴望交談的是什麼?
09:07
JG: Let's do this together.
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約翰:咱們一起來這樣做。
09:09
Together.
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同心協力。
09:10
JB: Yes.
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瓊安:是的。
09:11
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
09:12
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
09:15
JB and JG: Thank you.
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瓊安和約翰:謝謝。
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