The crisis of leadership — and a new way forward | Halla Tómasdóttir and Bryn Freedman

Translator: Leslie Gauthier Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

譯者: Amanda Zhu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Bryn Freedman: So you keep talking about leadership

布林·弗里德曼：你在談論領導時，

as a real crisis of conformity.

總是把它說成是真正的遵從危機。

Can you explain to us what you mean by that?

您可以跟大家說明一下 是甚麼意思嗎？

What do you see as a crisis of conformity?

你認為甚麼算是遵從危機？

Halla Tómasdóttir: I think it's a crisis of conformity

海拉·湯馬斯多特：遵從危機就是

when we continue to do business and lead in the way we always have,

持續依循固有的方式 來做事業和領導別人。

yet the evidence is overwhelming

但已經有非常強大的證據指出

that the world needs us to change our ways.

世界需要我們改變做法。

So let's look a little bit at that evidence.

我們來看一些證據。

Science has told us that we're facing a climate crisis,

科學告訴我們， 我們正在面臨氣候危機，

yet 40 percent of board directors

但有四成董事

don't think climate belongs in the boardroom.

不認為氣候是董事會 會議中要談的事。

And we have kids marching in the streets now,

現在有孩子走上街頭，

asking us to be accountable for their future.

要求我們為他們的未來負責。

We have a crisis of inequality.

我們有不平等危機，

We have Yellow Jackets not just in the streets of France,

黃背心不只出現在法國街頭，

but all over the world,

全世界各地都有，

and yet we continue to see examples

但我們仍然繼續看到

of businesses and other leaders fueling that anger.

企業和其他領導人 不斷在怒火上加油。

BF: Do you think the pitchforks are coming?

布：你認為接下來會有人揭竿起義？

HT: I definitely think this is not sustainable.

海：我認為這絕不是個永續的作法。

And the reason why it's so difficult

處理這些互相關聯的 複雜危機會如此困難，

for us to deal with these complicated crises that are interrelated

is that we are at the lowest levels of trust we've ever been at.

是因為我們正處於信任的最低點。

In the UK, three percent of people trust their government

在英國，只有 3% 的人相信 他們的政府會解決脫歐危機，

to solve the Brexit crisis,

and that was in December.

那還只是 12 月份的數字。

I think it's probably gone down since then.

我認為在那之後，這個數字 很可能更走下坡了。

BF: What do you think new leadership actually looks like?

布：你認為新的領導階層 應該是什麼樣子的？

HT: We need courageous leaders,

海：我們需要有勇氣的領導階層，

yet they have to be humble.

但他們也要懂得謙遜。

And they have to be guided by a moral compass,

他們必須要有道德標準的指引，

and the moral compass is the combination of having a social purpose --

而道德標準就包括 要有貢獻社會的目標——

you can't have your license to operate anymore

如果你沒有貢獻社會的目標，

without a purpose that contributes to society,

就不能取得營運的執照，

but what, to me, has been missing from that dialogue is a set of principles.

但對我而言，在意見交流中 所缺乏的是一組原則。

We cannot just define why we exist,

我們不能只是定義 我們為什麼存在，

we have to define how we're going to do business

我們得要定義我們要如何做生意，

and how we're going to lead.

以及我們要如何領導。

And to us, that has to be to solve these imminent crises:

對我們來說，那就得要 解決這些迫切的危機：

the climate crisis,

氣候危機、

the crisis of inequality

不平等危機，

and the crisis of trust.

以及信任危機。

So at The B Team,

所以，在「B 型團隊」，

we embrace sustainability, equality and accountability as our principles.

我們很樂於以永續、 平等、負責為原則。

BF: Do you think this whole question of purpose is really window dressing --

布：你認為這個目標的問題， 是否只是在修飾外表——

they're saying what they think people want to hear,

他們只說他們認為人們想聽的話，

but they're actually not making the fundamental changes

但其實沒有從根本上

that are necessary?

做必要的改變？

HT: A lot of people feel that way,

海：很多人都有這種感覺，

and I think there's a growing momentum behind that.

我認為那背後有著 越來越壯大的動力。

所以，我認為現在世界 正需要負責任的領導人，

So I think the world is calling for responsible leadership now,

and any leader who wants to be around for the 21st century

任何想在 21 世紀繼續領導的人，

really needs to start thinking courageously and holistically

就真的必須開始做 勇敢、整體的思考，

how they're going to be part of the solution

思考他們要如何成為 解決方案的一部分，

and not window-dress anymore.

而不再只是修飾外表。

You have to do it for real now.

現在你得要玩真的了。

BF: Do you see anybody out there who's doing it

布：目前外面有沒有哪個人正在

in a way that you think is actually effective

用你認為有效的方式在做這件事？

and has a real, long-term impact?

並且具有切實、長期的影響？

HT: Fortunately, we have some great leaders out there.

海：很幸運地，我們的確 有些傑出的領導人。

And just to give one example,

舉個例子，

Emmanuel Faber, who's one of the newest members of The B Team,

伊曼紐爾·法伯，他是 B 型團隊最新的成員之一，

he's the CEO of Danone,

他是達能的執行長，

the world's largest yogurt-maker and major food company --

達能是全世界最大的優格製造商 及主要的食物公司——

a real global company.

一家真正的全球企業。

He's so committed to sustainability

他致力於永續發展，

that he's not only changing the ways of his own business,

不僅改變了他自己企業內的做法，

but his entire supply chain.

還改變了整個供應鏈。

He's so committed to equality that when he took on as CEO

他對平等非常投入， 當他接下執行長時，

and he said gender balance matters,

他說性別平衡很重要，

he created a gender-balanced executive team

他創建了一個性別 平衡的領導團隊，

and gave men and women equal maternity and paternity leave.

並且提供男性和女性平等的產假。

He's so committed to accountability

他也致力於承擔責任，

that he turned his US operations into a B Corporation.

所以他將美國的事業 轉型成為了 B 型企業。

Now many of you may not know what that is,

許多人可能不知道 B 型企業是什麼，

but that's a company that holds itself responsible

那是一種共益企業， 它不僅謀求利益，

for not just profit but its impact on people and the planet,

還要為該企業對人 和地球造成影響負責，

and transparently reports on their performance on all of that.

並且提供透明公開的報告來 說明他們在這些方面的表現。

It's the largest B Corp in the world.

達能是世界上最大的 B 型企業。

So to me, that's holistic, courageous leadership,

所以我認為那是整體、 勇敢的領導方式，

and it's really the vision we all need to hold.

也是我們都需要有的願景。

BF: Is this "Back to the Future"?

布：這是《回到未來》嗎？

I mean, I wonder, when I think about companies --

我是指，當我想到那些公司——

Anheuser-Busch comes to mind in America --

在美國我想到的是安海斯-布希 ——

a 100-year-old company that invested in its community,

這間有百年歷史的公司 貢獻它的社區，

that gave a living wage

付出能維持一定生活水平的工資，

before it ended up, you know, losing and getting sold.

但最後落得賠錢，然後賣掉了。

Are we really looking now for companies that are global and community citizens,

現在我們在找的是兼顧 全球化和地方性的公司，

or is that something that is not even useful anymore?

難道這種做法現在已經不管用了？

HT: Well, you can do this for the reason that it's risky, actually,

海：其實你可以因為風險太高

to continue without doing the right thing now.

而不做這些共益的事情。

You can't attract the right talent,

但你就吸引不到合適的人才，

you can't attract customers

吸引不到顧客，

and increasingly, you won't be able to attract capital.

你也愈來愈吸引不到資金。

You might do it for risk reasons,

你可能因為風險，

you might do it for business opportunity reasons,

你可能為了商機而朝共益發展，

because this is where the growth is,

因為成長就在這裡，

which is why many leaders are doing the right thing.

這就是為什麼許多 領導人都在做這件事。

But at the end of the day,

但到頭來，

we need to ask ourselves:

我們得要捫心自問：

"Who are we holding ourselves accountable for?"

「我們要為誰負責？」

And if that isn't the next generation,

如果答案不是下一代，

I don't know who.

我就不知道是誰了。

So I want to just make very clear,

所以，我想要說清楚，

because we tend to think about leadership

因為我們會認為領導人

as only those who sit in positions of power.

指的只有那些坐擁權力的人。

To me, leadership is not at all like that.

我心中的領導人完全不是那樣的。

There's a leader inside every single one of us,

我們每個人的內在 都藏著一個領導人，

and our most important work in life is to release that leader.

我們一生中最重要的工作， 是要將那個領導人釋放出來。

And I think one of the greatest global examples we have

全世界有一個偉大的例子，

of someone who didn't --

這個人沒有——

no one gave her power --

沒有人給她權力——

is the 16-year-old girl called Greta Thunberg.

她是個十六歲女孩， 名叫格蕾塔·桑伯格。

She's from Sweden,

她來自瑞典，

and a few years ago, she really became --

幾年前，她變得——

she has Asperger's,

她有亞斯伯格症候群，

and she became passionate about our climate crisis --

她變得非常熱衷於 我們的氣候危機——

她學習了所有相關資訊。

learned everything about it.

And faced with the evidence,

面對那些證據，

she just felt so disappointed in her leadership

她對領導階層非常失望，

that she started striking in front of the Swedish parliament.

她便開始在瑞典國會前罷課抗議。

And now she has started a global movement,

現在她已帶起了一項全球運動，

and hundreds and thousands of school kids are out in the streets

成千上百的學校學生走上街頭，

asking us to hold ourselves accountable for their future.

要求我們對他們的未來負責。

No one gave her that authority,

沒有人給予她那權力，

and she now speaks to the leaders of the world, heads of state,

現在她可以和世界領導人、 國家領袖對話，

and really is impacting the world.

真正在影響世界。

So I really think that when we think about leadership today,

我真的認為，當我們 想到現今的領導人時，

it can't be defined to those in positions of power

不能將他們定義為坐擁權力的人，

though they have disproportionately greater responsibility.

雖然他們的責任更為巨大。

But all of us need to think about,

但我們所有人都需要想想：

"What am I doing?"

「我在做什麼？」

"How am I contributing?"

「我正在如何做出貢獻？」

And we need to release that leader inside

我們必須釋放自己 內在的那個領導人，

and actually start making the positive impact

開始對世界造成正面的影響，

this world is calling for right now.

造成世界正需要的影響。

BF: But we have such hierarchical leadership.

布：但我們的領導型態是階層式的。

I mean, I understand what you're saying --

我是說，我瞭解你的意思——

it's nice to release the leader inside --

能把內在的領導人 釋放出來是很好——

but in these corporations,

但事實上這些企業的組織架構

the truth is, it's extremely hierarchical.

都是極度垂直化的階層。

What can companies do

公司能做什麼，

to create less vertical and more horizontal relationships?

來減少垂直階層， 創造更扁平的組織結構？

HT: Well, I'm a big believer and I've long been passionate

海：我非常相信這一套，

我長久以來對消彌性別落差 都帶有很大的熱忱。

about closing the gender gap,

and I really believe gender-balanced leadership is the way to go

我堅信性別平衡的領導 是正確的方法，

in order to embrace a leadership style that has been shown to be more powerful,

這是一種公認更強大的領導模式，

and that's when both men and women embrace

那就是當男性和女性都能全心接受

both masculine and feminine values.

男性化和女性化都有價值時。

It actually is proven in research

已經有研究證明，

that that's the most effective leadership style.

那是最有效的領導模式。

But I'm increasingly now thinking about how we close the generational gap,

我現在越來越常思考 我們要如何處理世代落差，

because look at these young children in the streets around the world --

因為看著全世界街頭的 這些年輕孩子——

they're asking us to lead.

他們在要求我們領導。

Kofi Annan used to say, "You're never too young to lead."

科菲·安南曾說過： 「領導永遠不嫌年輕。」

And then he would add,

他會再加上這句：

"Or too old to learn."

「學習永遠不嫌老。」

And I think we have now entered this era

我認我們已經跨入了一個世代，

where we need the wisdom of those with experience,

在此世代中，我們 既需要經驗人士的智慧，

but we need the digital natives of the young generation

也需要年輕的數位原生世代的技能，

to co-mentor or to mentor us just as much as we can help

來互相指導，或指導我們，

就像我們能用前人的經驗 幫助他們一樣。

with wisdom from the older people.

So it's a new reality,

這是一種新的現實，

and these old, sort of hierarchical ways to think about things,

那些老舊、階級式的思考方式

they're increasingly coming under pressure in this reality.

會變得越來越禁不起 這種現實的考驗。

BF: And you've actually called that the hubris syndrome.

布：你曾說過那就是所謂的 「自大症候群」。

Can you talk about that?

能多談談嗎？

HT: Well, yes, I think hubris is our cancer in leadership.

海：當然，我認為自大 是領導人的毒瘤。

That's when leaders think they know it all,

就是領導人認為自己知道一切，

can do it all, have all the answers

能處理所有事， 知道所有問題的答案，

and don't think they need to surround themselves

認為他們身邊不需要 能夠學習的對象來讓他們改進。

with people who will make them better,

which to me would, in some cases, be more women and younger people

這些學習的對象可能 更會是女性、年輕人，

and people who are diverse and have different opinions in general.

以及更多元化、 有更多不同想法的人。

Hubris syndrome is so present in leadership still,

自大症候群在領導人中還很普遍，

and we know many examples of them,

這樣的例子不勝枚舉。

I don't need to name them. And the problem with that --

我不需要說出是誰，問題在於——

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Yeah, we know them -- all over the world,

是的，我們都知道是誰—— 全世界都有，

not just in this country.

不只這個國家有。

But that kind of leadership doesn't unleash leaders in others.

但這種領導人無法釋放 別人內在的領導人。

No one person,

沒有任何單一的個人，

or no one sector even has the solutions we now need to come up with --

也沒有任何單一業界 有我們需要的解決方案——

the creativity and collaboration we need.

我們所需要的創造力和合作精神。

The bold and the brave leadership we need to come up with solutions

我們需要的大膽和有勇氣的領導力，

that cross government, private sector, civil society, young people, older people,

是由各個政府、業界、民營組織， 不論是年輕人或年長者，

people of all different backgrounds coming together is the way

各種不同背景的人共同提出解決方案， 才能夠解決我們眼前所面臨的問題。

to solve the issues that are in front of us.

BF: Do you see that kind of leadership coming from the bottom-up

布：您認為那是來自從下而上的領導，

or the top-down,

或是從上而下的領導？

or do you think a crisis is going to force us

還是會有危機出現，迫使 我們重新檢視這一切？

into a reexamination of all of this?

HT: Well, as someone who lived through the most infamous financial meltdown

海：我經歷過我的祖國冰島 聲名狼藉的金融危機，

in my home country, Iceland,

I hope we don't need another one to learn or to wake up.

我不希望再經歷另一個危機 才學到教訓，才覺醒。

But I do see that we can't choose one or the other.

但我確知不能在

由下而上或由上而下 兩種領導方式中擇一。

We do have to transform the way we lead --

現有的領導方式必須 經過一番轉型——

from the top, the boardroom, the CEOs --

由最高階層、董事會、 執行長領導的方式，

we really do have to transform that,

我們有必要改變正種方式，

but increasingly, we will transform that,

我們也會逐漸做到，

because we have these social movements coming from the bottom

因為我們有來自底層和整個社會

and throughout society.

所發起的社會運動。

And the solutions exist.

而且一定會有解決方案，

The only thing that's missing is will.

唯一缺少的意志力。

So if we just all find a way to embrace a moral compass of our own

如果我們都能夠找到一種方法 來全心遵循自己的道德標準，

to figure out why we exist and how we're going to lead,

想清楚我們為什麼存在， 我們該如何領導，

and if we embrace courage and humility in equal amounts,

如果我們也能全心付出 同等的勇氣和謙遜，

each one of us can be part of this 10-year period

那麼我們每個人都能在十年間

where we can dramatically transform the world we live in,

促成我們所居住世界的重大轉型，

and make it just,

讓這個世界變得公正，

and make it about humanity and not just the financial markets.

更重視人道的考量， 而不只是以金融市場為前提。

BF: Well, we have a lot of people here who I bet have questions for you,

布：我猜在座有很多人 都有問題想問您，

and we have a few minutes for questions,

我們還有幾分鐘的時間來回答問題。

so is there anybody that would like to ask Halla a question?

有人想問海拉問題的嗎？

Audience: Hello, my name is Cheryl.

觀眾：您好，我叫雪蘿。

I'm an aspiring leader,

成為領導者是我的抱負，

and I have a question about how you lead when you have no influence.

我想問，在沒有影響力時， 你要如何領導？

If I'm just an analyst,

如果我只是一名分析師，

and I want to speak to senior management

我想和管理高層對話，

about a change that I feel will affect the whole company,

討論我認為對公司 有整體影響的改革，

how do I go about changing their minds

我該如何改變他們的想法？

when they feel as if they've had relationships that are set,

尤其是當他們覺得組織的 人際架構已經是固定的，

that their way of business is set?

他們的業務模式也是固定的。

How do you change minds when you have no influence?

這種情況下，你如何在沒有 影響力時改變人們的想法？

HT: Well, thank you very much for that fantastic question.

海：非常感謝你提出 這麼精彩的問題。

So sometimes people at the top won't listen,

有時候最高層的人不會聽別人的，

but it's interesting that with the low trust we have in society right now,

但有趣的是，最近有研究顯示， 儘管現在社會中的信任度很低，

the greatest trust we have

員工和雇主間的信任感 反而是最強的。

is actually between the employee and the employer,

according to recent research.

So I think that relationship may be the most powerful way

所以我認為這樣的關係

是促成舊有的行事方式出現 實質轉型最強大的力量。

to actually transform the way we do things.

So I would start by trying to build a coalition for your good idea.

我會試著建立一個支持 你想法的聯盟，作為開端。

And I don't know a single leader today who will not listen to a concern

而且現在的領導人當中， 對於多數員工共同關心的問題，

that many of their employees hold.

不會充耳不聞的。

I'll give you an example from another B Team leader,

我用另一個 B 型企業 領導人來舉例，

馬克·本尼奧夫， Salesforce 的執行長。

Marc Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce.

He's really been outspoken on homelessness in San Francisco,

他對舊金山無家可歸的問題、

on LGBTQI rights,

同性、雙性、變性等 少數性別族群權利的問題，

and all of the things that he's been standing up for,

以及其他所有他關心的議題， 都直言無諱地發表強烈的意見。

he does because his employees care about them.

他這樣做是因為 他的員工關心這些問題。

So don't ever think you don't have power if you don't sit in a position of power.

所以不要因為不在權力的位子上， 就覺得自己沒有力量，

Find the way to go convince him ...

你要找方法去說服他／她。

or her.

And Marc, for example, was convinced to close the gender pay gap by two women

舉其中一個例子，

在馬克組織中的兩位女性員工 說服他消除兩性薪資差距，

who worked inside of his organization,

who told him, "We have a gender pay gap."

她們告訴馬克：「公司裡有 男女同工不同酬的情況。」

He didn't believe it; he said, "Bring me the data."

他不相信，並說：「給我看數據。」

They did, and he was smart enough to know he needed to do something about it,

她們照做了，馬克有足夠的睿智， 知道他必須解決這個問題。

and was one the first tech leaders to step up and do so voluntarily.

他是第一批主動解決 這個問題的科技公司領導人。

So don't ever think that you don't have power,

所以儘管你不是在權力的位子上，

even if you don't sit in a position of power,

絕對不要認為你沒有力量，

but find other people to support you

你要找其他人來支持你，

and make the case.

讓你的議題受到重視。

BF: Thank you.

布：謝謝。

Anybody else? Any other questions?

還有其他問題嗎？

Audience: Hi, I'm overwhelmed by fascination

觀眾：我覺得您剛所說的一切 都太棒了，謝謝您。

with everything you're saying, so thank you.

I just wanted to ask how, like, diversity in opinion and thought

我只是想問，意見、 想法、背景的多元性，

and also background

has impacted your leadership ability.

如何影響您的領導能力？

And what do you think is the barricade that is limiting the overflow of diversity

還有，您認為在所有商業環境中 是甚麼阻擋多元性的擴大？

in all business settings,

and what do you think can impact the change in that setting

以及，在那樣的環境中，有甚麼 會影響您所說的領導模式的改變？

but also to disrupt the overflow of generations of people staying in place?

而當今環境充斥著一代代都還待在 原地的人，有甚麼能阻斷這個趨勢？

And what do you think is the next step to breaking several glass ceilings?

還有，您認為要打破各種階級間的 無形障礙，下一步該怎麼做？

BF: We're going to do an entire Salon just on that question.

布：我們可能需要另開一個集會 來專門討論這些問題。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

HT: I think Bryn said it well, but let me try and touch on it.

海：布林說得很對，我來試著回答。

So the way I see gender, it is a spectrum --

我是怎麼看待性別的呢？ 我認為性別像是光譜——

you know, men also have gender.

別忘了男性也是有性別的，

We sometimes forget about that.

我們有時會忘了這點。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

We sometimes forget about that.

我們有時會忘了這點。

And I actually played a very masculine woman early in my career,

我在職涯早期，其實扮演著一個 非常男性化的女性角色，

because those were the rules of the game.

因為那是當時的遊戲規則。

And I achieved some success with it,

我透過那種方式獲得些許成功。

but fortunately, I got to a place

很幸運地，我達到了一個位置，

讓我開始全心接受自己 女性化的一面。

where I started embracing my feminine side as well.

But I would still say that the best leaders embrace both,

但我還是要說，那些最傑出的領導人 能同時接受女性化和男性化這兩面。

both women and men.

But I see gender, also,

但我也認為，

as one of the most powerful levers to shift values in culture.

性別是轉變文化價值觀 最有利的槓桿。

So the reason I'm so passionate about women in leadership

我之所以對女性領導人的 話題充滿熱忱，

and believe that balance is needed

並且相信領導階層需要男女平衡，

is because right now, our definition of success is incredibly masculine.

是因為我們現在對成功的 定義還是過於男性化，

It's about financial profit alone or economic growth alone,

成功還只是利潤或經濟成長。

and we all know that we need more than money.

我們都知道，我們需要的不只是錢。

I mean, we need wellness:

我是說，我們需要健康：

well-being of people,

人們都安康幸福。

and there is no future beyond the well-being of our planet.

如果我們的世界不安樂， 我們就沒有未來。

So I think gender may very well be one of the most powerful levers

所以我認為性別很可能是 最有利的槓桿，

to help all of us shift our economic and social systems

來幫助我們所有人將經濟 和社會系統變得更具包容力。

to be more welcoming.

And the answer to your last part --

關於你問題的最後一部分——

it's so complicated, but let me try to give you a short one.

這個問題很複雜， 讓我試著用簡短的方式來回答。

I believe that the way talent and consumption is shifting

我相信人才和消費模式的轉變，

is going to increasingly get companies

會讓企業愈來愈想要在領導階層中 增加一些多元性的差異，

to look at adding difference into their leadership,

because sameness is not working --

因為單一化已經不合用了——

BF: And difference is a superpower.

布：差異是一種超能力。

HT: Difference is a superpower.

海：沒錯，差異是一種超能力。

BF: Thank you very much.

布：非常謝謝大家。

Halla, thank you so much, I wish we could talk to you all day.

海拉，非常感謝您， 我真希望我們有一整天繼續聊。

（掌聲及歡呼聲）

(Applause and cheers)

HT: Thank you.

海：謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）