Hrishikesh Hirway: What you discover when you really listen | TED

79,266 views ・ 2021-11-22

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譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang
我一生都熱愛著音樂,
00:13
I've been in love with music my whole life,
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00:15
both as a musician and as a listener.
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不論身為音樂家或身為聽眾。
00:18
But as a listener,
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但,身為聽眾,
00:21
sometimes songs feel a little like houses to me,
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有時,我會覺得歌曲就像是房子,
00:24
houses that you can only see from the street.
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你只能從街上看著的房子。
00:27
You can stop and admire them from the outside.
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你可以停下腳步,從外面欣賞它們。
你可以說:「哇,看啊, 這建築好驚人。
00:31
You can say, "Wow, look, the architecture is amazing.
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00:34
You might be able to get a little peek inside through one of the windows,
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你可能可以從其中 一個窗戶瞥見房子的內部,
00:38
but it’s this thing of beauty that you have to appreciate from a distance
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但你只能從遠處欣賞這個美麗之物,
00:41
because it's not yours.
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因為它不是你的。
00:43
And as a musician, when you put a song out into the world,
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身為音樂家,
當你對世界發表了一首歌曲,
00:48
it can sometimes feel like you're trapped in the backyard
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有時會感覺你被困住了,
00:50
of this house that you built.
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被困在你建造的房子的後院。
00:52
There might be people looking at it,
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可能會有人在看這間房子,
00:54
but you never get the chance to show them anything inside.
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但你永遠不會有機會 讓他們看到內部。
00:58
Inside a song, there are all these parts that get imagined and written and recorded
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一首歌曲裡面
包含了各式各樣的部分你可以 想像出來、寫出來、錄下來,
01:03
that are so full of thought and beauty,
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充滿了想法和美麗,
01:06
but only the people who've made the song
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但只有製作這首歌曲的人
01:08
ever get to hear those pieces on their own.
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可以自己聽到那些片斷。
01:10
All those pieces get smushed together in the final version that comes out.
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所有那些片斷全部被塞到 最後推出的版本裡面。
01:15
Whenever I put out a song, I was always a little sad
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每當我推出一首歌曲, 我總會感到有點悲傷,
01:17
that no one else was going to get to hear the things that I had heard
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沒有別人能聽見
我在製作歌曲時聽見的那些東西。
01:21
when I was making it.
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01:23
Let me show you what I mean. Here's a clip from a song of mine.
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讓我做個示範。接下來的 這段音樂出自我作品。
01:26
(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)
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(吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏)
01:30
(Cello plays a flowing melody)
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(大提琴演奏接續的弦律)
01:50
OK. What's your experience when you listen to that?
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好,聽這段音樂時,你有什麼體驗?
01:54
You might like it, maybe, or you might hate it,
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你可能很喜歡它,也許吧, 或者你很討厭它,
01:57
or you might say, "I don't know, dude,
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你可能會說:「我不知道,老兄, 才二十秒,是要我怎麼判斷?」
01:59
it's 20 seconds of a song, what do you want from me?"
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02:01
Which is fair.
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這樣說很公平。
02:03
What I hear is impossible to expect anyone else to hear.
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我不可能期望任何人 能聽到我所聽到的。
02:07
It's not just the cello part and the guitar part and the drum beat.
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它不只有大提琴的部分、 吉他的部分,以及鼓的節奏。
02:12
It's also all the things that I lived through
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還有我為了創作出 這音樂所經歷的一切。
02:14
in order for that music to exist.
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02:16
So in 2014, I started a show
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2014 年,我開始做一個節目,
02:19
to try and solve this distance between the creator and the audience.
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試圖縮短創作者和觀眾之間的距離。
02:24
I interviewed musicians about one of their songs
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我會訪問音樂家,再將之結合
談他們的一首歌曲,再將之結合
02:27
and then combined that with the different layers of music
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形塑那個首歌曲的不同層次。
02:30
that make up that song.
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02:32
I thought this way an artist could bring a listener in
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我認為藝術家可以 用這種方式帶聽眾進門,
02:36
and give them a guided tour of this house they made.
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引導聽眾參觀他建造的房子。
02:38
They could point to the foundation
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藝術家可以指著地基,說:
02:40
and say, "This is how the song got started."
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「這首歌是從這裡開始的。」
02:42
And then as more and more layers get built on top,
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接著,一層一層蓋上去,
02:45
eventually the full song gets revealed.
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最後,整首歌便成形了。
02:48
The show is called "Song Exploder."
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這個節目叫做《歌曲傳遞者》。
02:50
It's a pod --
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它是個播——(掌聲)
02:51
(Applause)
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02:55
“Song Exploder” is a podcast,
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《歌曲傳遞者》是個播客節目,
02:57
and it's also a TV show that I adapted for Netflix.
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我也為網飛(Netflix) 把它改編成電視節目。
03:01
And over the years, I've gotten to talk
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這些年來,我有榮幸和一些世界上 最偉大的音樂家談他們的創作。
03:03
to some of the biggest musicians in the world about their work.
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比如佛利伍·麥克、U2、
03:06
People like Fleetwood Mac and U2, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Alicia Keys,
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林曼努爾·米蘭達、艾莉西亞·凱斯、
03:11
Billie Eilish, The Roots and Yo-Yo Ma, and over 200 others.
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怪奇比莉、紮根合唱團、
馬友友,以及其他兩百多人。
03:16
At first, I was really looking at those isolated pieces of music
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一開始,
我著眼在這些音樂的片斷,
03:21
to do the work of revealing the inside of their respective houses.
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靠它們來揭示出每間房子的內部。
03:26
But as I was having conversations with them about their songs,
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但,當我在和他們談他們的歌曲時,
03:30
something happened.
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有什麼發生了。
03:32
I realized that there were rooms
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我發現,
談話本身當中就有 一些房間,等著被發掘,
03:34
to be discovered in the conversations themselves,
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03:37
doors that could be opened.
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有一些門,等著被打開。
03:39
And I started to wonder:
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我開始好奇:
03:41
Could I try listening to people
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我能不能把我聆聽音樂的方式 用來傾聽別人說話?
03:43
the way that I was trying to listen to music?
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03:46
Because when someone tells you something, just like with a song,
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因為當別人告訴你 一件事時,就像歌曲一樣,
03:49
there can be all these layers within it.
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裡面可能有各種層次。
03:52
There can be all this context that you're missing
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如果你只是在街頭 從外面看著房子的人,
03:55
as the person out on the street, outside of the house.
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可能會有你看不到情境,
因為你在房子外面。
04:00
So to get inside, I had to listen for those moments,
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為了要進到內部,
我得要去傾聽那些時刻,那些線索,
04:03
those clues where there was more to be discovered,
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那裡還有更多可以發掘的,
04:06
where there was something below the surface
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在我一開始看到的表面 底下還有很多很多。
04:08
of what was first presented to me.
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04:11
So I borrowed from my music-listening brain,
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所以,我借用了我聽音樂的大腦,
04:13
and now when I’m in a conversation, this is what I try to do.
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現在當我與人交談時,我會這樣做:
04:18
Be open to new ideas.
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開放接受新想法。
04:20
Stop multitasking.
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別一心多用。
04:23
Let the other person know that you’re engaged,
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讓對方知道你很投入,
04:26
and do it without taking your focus away from them and turning it onto you.
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且這麼做的時候,不要把你的 焦點從他們身上轉到你身上。
04:31
Because of making "Song Exploder,"
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因為製作《歌曲傳遞者》,
04:32
I now listen to a much wider range of music than I used to.
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現在我所聽的音樂 比以前更廣泛許多。
04:37
When I was younger,
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我比較年輕的時候,我還會
04:38
I used to actually pride myself on my music snobbery.
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以我的音樂勢利眼為傲。
04:42
But nowadays, it just feels like I'm potentially cutting myself off
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但,現在,
感覺這樣做其實是讓我自己 失去了聽到好點子的機會。
04:47
from hearing some great ideas.
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04:49
And I think that’s a prerequisite when it comes to listening to people, too.
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我想,傾聽別人說話時, 也有一些前提條件。
04:53
You have to go into it open-minded and curious
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進入交談時,你得帶著 開放的心態和好奇心,
04:56
and ready to learn something new.
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且準備要了解新東西。
04:59
Also, the instinct to multitask is so hard to turn off,
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此外,很難把想要 一心多用的直覺給關掉,
05:02
but it's so important that you do it.
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但關掉它是很重要的。
05:04
You know, when you're listening to music these days,
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現今,當你在聽音樂時, 大部分的時候,
05:07
most of the time it's something that we do passively.
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我們是被動地聽。
05:09
It's in the background.
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音樂是背景,是我們 做其他事情時的配樂。
05:11
It's the soundtrack to something else that we're doing.
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05:13
And I hate to say it, but between our phones and our smartwatches
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我很不想說,但在我們的手機 和我們的智慧手錶之間,
05:17
and just our own wandering thoughts,
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只有我們在遊盪的思路,
05:19
it's easy to get distracted,
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很容易會分心,且我們 聽別人說話時也是一樣。
05:21
and we tend to listen to other people that way, too.
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05:24
But you can't really get immersed if that's the case.
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但,這樣的話,你不可能做到沉浸。
05:29
Imagine trying to listen to a song
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想像一下,你在試著聽一首歌曲,
05:32
while singing a different song in your head.
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但卻在腦海中唱另一首歌曲。
05:35
You can't do it or you can't do it well.
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你做不到,或做不好。
05:37
And you can't fully appreciate what someone else is saying
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如果你腦中在想著其他事, 就不可能好好聽別人在說什麼。
05:40
if you're thinking about something else.
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05:43
I'm also a big believer in the power of nonverbal communication.
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我也非常相信非言語溝通的力量。
05:47
Like, just the simple act of a nod
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比如,只是小小的點個頭,
05:49
is a way to let the other person know that you're engaged
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這種方式就可以 讓對方知道你很投入,
05:53
and also invites them to keep going and say more.
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同時邀請他們繼續說下去, 並且再多說一些。
05:57
That kind of intentional, engaged silence makes space for them.
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那種刻意、投入的沉默
能創造空間給他們。
06:04
Sometimes, though, you do have to actually ask for more.
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不過,有時,你得開口索求更多。
06:07
You have to draw them out.
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你得誘使他們說更多。
06:09
But if you can ask for what's below the surface of what they just said,
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但若你能針對他們剛才說的話, 問他們在表面底下有什麼,
06:14
you might unlock some door for them
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你可能就為他們解鎖了幾道門,
06:16
and invite them to go through it with you.
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並邀請他們和你一起穿過那些門。
06:19
That also means turning off the instinct to talk about yourself.
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這也表示,
要把想要談你自己的直覺給關掉。
06:25
I used to think that this was actually the best way to show
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我以前認為,若要表示我在傾聽, 這就是最好的方式。
06:28
that I was really listening.
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某人告訴我某事時,我會說:
06:30
Someone would tell me something
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06:31
and I’d say, “That reminds me of this thing that happened to me,”
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「那讓我想到,我也遇過這種事。」
06:34
and then I would tell a whole story of my own.
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接著我會說出我自己的整個故事。
06:37
But it's kind of like listening to half a song and then saying,
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但這就好像
聽了半首歌曲,然後說: 「這部分讓我想到另一首歌。」
06:41
"Oh, you know, this part reminds me of this other song,"
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06:43
and then turning that first song off and going and putting on some other song,
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接著就把第一首歌曲切掉, 去放另一首歌曲。
06:47
which is also something I've done.
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我也會幹這種事。
06:49
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
06:51
But you can't get deeper if you lose the moment like that.
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但如果你錯失那樣的時刻, 你就無法更深入了。
06:55
So it's a challenge to your impatience and to your selfishness
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所以,你的不耐煩和自私 會受到很大的考驗,
07:00
to be engaged without making it about you.
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因為你得投入,且不要 把焦點轉到你身上。
07:05
OK, and so now to ignore the advice about talking about yourself.
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現在我要忽略 「不要談你自己」的建議,
07:10
I would like to talk about myself
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我要來談談我自己
07:13
and tell you a little bit about me and that song that I played you a part of
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和各位分享一些我的事, 及剛才播放了一小段的歌曲,
07:17
to hopefully illustrate what I'm talking about.
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希望能協助說明我的意思。
07:21
Years ago, when I was making my first recordings,
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數年前,我初次製作錄音時,
我會在我的臥房裡 把我的歌曲一放再放。
07:25
I would play my songs over and over and over again in my bedroom.
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07:28
My music career wasn't really something I could talk about with my parents.
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我沒辦法和我父母談我的音樂職涯。
07:32
They were hardworking immigrants
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他們是很辛勤工作的移民,
07:34
whose dream for me had been to become a doctor or a lawyer.
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他們夢想我能成為醫生或律師。
07:39
But every now and then,
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但,偶爾,
07:41
I would hear my mom humming one of my songs
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我會聽到我媽媽哼我的某首歌曲,
07:43
just to herself in the kitchen.
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在廚房,哼給她自己聽。
07:47
And that felt like some kind of unspoken approval.
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那感覺就像是某種 不用說出來的認可。
07:51
And over the years, whenever I would hear my mom humming one of my songs,
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這些年來,每次聽到我媽媽 哼我的歌曲我就會很開心。
07:54
it made me so happy.
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07:57
Last fall, my mom passed away.
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去年秋天,我媽媽過世了。
08:01
And a few weeks after her funeral,
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她的葬禮過後幾週,
08:03
I had a dream where I got to see her and talk to her
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我作了個夢,在夢中我見到了她,
08:07
and visit with her for a little bit.
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和她說了話,聊了一下天。
08:11
And I woke up filled with longing and sadness
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我醒來之後,
充滿了渴望和悲傷,
08:15
but also gratitude for this moment and this dream.
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但也很感激有這場夢,這樣的時刻。
08:20
And I ended up writing a song about it.
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我後來為此寫了一首歌曲。
08:23
(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)
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(吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏)
08:25
(Sings) But it's so good to see you.
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(唱歌)但能見到你真好。
08:31
It's so good to see you,
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能見到你真好,
08:35
see you again.
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能再次見到你。
08:40
In the bridge,
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在橋段的部分,我暫時停止用唱的,
08:42
I stopped singing for a little bit and I just hummed a melody.
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我只把弦律哼出來。
08:46
(Humming)
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(哼歌)
08:51
I was thinking about my mom,
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我在想著我媽媽,
08:53
and I wanted to try and represent her in the music in some way.
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我想在音樂中以某種方式表現她。
08:59
One of the people who I talked to about the song
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我在寫這首歌曲時, 和一個人談過它:馬友友。
09:01
while I was making it was Yo-Yo Ma.
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09:04
I told him, this is what the song is about
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我告訴他,這就是這首歌曲的意義,
09:06
and this is what the music is supposed to do in this part.
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音樂在這個部分應該有這樣的功能。
09:09
And I asked him, "Do you think that the cello
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我問他:
「你認為大提琴能代表 我媽媽的聲音嗎?」
09:13
could represent my mom's voice?"
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09:16
And he listened to everything that I said. And then he played those notes.
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他聽了我說的所有內容,
接著他便彈奏了那些音符。
09:20
(Cello plays a flowing melody)
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(大提琴演奏接續的弦律)
09:27
OK. Here's everything together again.
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好,現在我把這些都加起來。
09:29
(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)
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(吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏)
09:32
(Cello plays a flowing melody)
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(大提琴演奏接續的弦律)
09:53
So now, what’s your experience when you listen to that
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現在,你聽到的感覺如何?
09:56
from inside the house?
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從房子的內部聽?
09:59
Every conversation has the potential to open up and reveal
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每一段談話,都有可能
可以開啟並揭露出 其內在一層一層的層次,
10:03
all the layers and layers within it,
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10:05
all those rooms within rooms.
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房間中的房間。
10:07
And personally, I hope that I can keep looking for those ways in
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我個人很希望我能繼續 尋找進入的門路,
10:11
so I can experience the depth and the richness of someone else's ideas
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那麼,每當我有機會 聽到別人的想法時,
我就能體驗到想法的深度和豐富度。
10:16
every chance I get to hear them.
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10:18
For now, thanks for listening to mine.
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現在則是謝謝你們傾聽我的想法。
10:21
Thank you.
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謝謝。
10:22
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
10:35
(Plays a soft tune)
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(演奏輕柔的曲調)
10:46
(Sings) You called out my name
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(唱歌)你大喊我的名字:
10:51
“Bring me some water, my love”
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「拿些水給我,我的摯愛。」
10:57
And it all felt the same
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一切感覺都一樣,
11:02
As any other
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就如同我人生中
11:05
night of my life
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任何一個晚上,
11:12
We lived at home back then
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那時我們住在家裡,
11:16
It still feels like home in my sleep
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現在,在我的睡夢中, 感覺仍然像家。
11:23
I woke to dark again
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又一次,我醒來時面對著黑暗,
11:28
For a moment
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有那麼一刻,
11:31
It was you
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是你
11:34
and me
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和我。
11:37
You’re a piece of a dream now
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現在的你只是一個夢,
11:42
Just a little too far
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只是有點太遠了。
11:48
I can still hear your voice through
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我仍然可以聽見你的聲音,穿過
11:54
The door left ajar
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半開的門傳來。
11:58
But can’t see where you are
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但看不見你在哪裡。
12:04
By the murmuring TV
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在低語的電視旁,
12:09
You’d fall asleep to
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你總會在這睡著。
12:12
in bed
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在床上,
12:16
You sat and looked at me
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你坐著,看著我。
12:20
I said I miss you
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我說我想你。
12:24
You said,
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你說:
12:26
“I know”
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「我知道。」
12:30
The pictures that I’ve framed
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被我錶框的照片
12:35
Don’t tell the stories in between
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無法訴說期間的故事。
12:41
The moments that contain
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那些時刻有著
12:46
Who you were really
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對我而言真實的你。
12:49
to me
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12:52
You’re a piece of a dream now
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現在的你只是一個夢,
12:58
Just a little too far
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只是有點太遠了。
13:03
I can still hear your voice through
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我仍然可以聽見你的聲音,穿過
13:09
The door left ajar
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半開的門傳來。
13:14
I guess that’s how it is now --
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我想,現在就是這樣了——
13:20
The only place you’ll appear
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你唯一會出現的地方,
13:25
We'll have to meet in some shadow
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我們得要在幻影中見面,
13:32
Between there and here
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在那裡和這裡之間,
13:36
Between there and here
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在那裡和這裡之間。
13:42
But it’s so good to see you
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但能見到你真好,
13:48
It’s so good to see you
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能見到你真好,
13:52
See you again
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能再次見到你。
13:57
(Hums a soft melody)
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(哼輕柔的弦律)
14:15
You’re a piece of a dream now
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現在的你只是一個夢,
14:21
Just a little too far
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只是有點太遠了。
14:26
I can still hear your voice through
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我仍然可以聽見你的聲音,穿過
14:32
The door left ajar
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半開的門傳來。
14:37
I guess that’s how it is now --
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我想,現在就是這樣了——
14:42
The only place you’ll appear
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你唯一會出現的地方,
14:48
We'll have to meet in some shadow
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我們得要在幻影中見面,
14:54
Between there and here
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在那裡和這裡之間,
14:58
Between there and here
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在那裡和這裡之間。
15:07
Thank you.
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謝謝。
15:08
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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