Hrishikesh Hirway: What you discover when you really listen | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

我一生都熱愛著音樂，

I've been in love with music my whole life,

both as a musician and as a listener.

不論身為音樂家或身為聽眾。

But as a listener,

但，身為聽眾，

sometimes songs feel a little like houses to me,

有時，我會覺得歌曲就像是房子，

houses that you can only see from the street.

你只能從街上看著的房子。

You can stop and admire them from the outside.

你可以停下腳步，從外面欣賞它們。

你可以說：「哇，看啊， 這建築好驚人。

You can say, "Wow, look, the architecture is amazing.

You might be able to get a little peek inside through one of the windows,

你可能可以從其中 一個窗戶瞥見房子的內部，

but it’s this thing of beauty that you have to appreciate from a distance

但你只能從遠處欣賞這個美麗之物，

because it's not yours.

因為它不是你的。

And as a musician, when you put a song out into the world,

身為音樂家，

當你對世界發表了一首歌曲，

it can sometimes feel like you're trapped in the backyard

有時會感覺你被困住了，

of this house that you built.

被困在你建造的房子的後院。

There might be people looking at it,

可能會有人在看這間房子，

but you never get the chance to show them anything inside.

但你永遠不會有機會 讓他們看到內部。

Inside a song, there are all these parts that get imagined and written and recorded

一首歌曲裡面

包含了各式各樣的部分你可以 想像出來、寫出來、錄下來，

that are so full of thought and beauty,

充滿了想法和美麗，

but only the people who've made the song

但只有製作這首歌曲的人

ever get to hear those pieces on their own.

可以自己聽到那些片斷。

All those pieces get smushed together in the final version that comes out.

所有那些片斷全部被塞到 最後推出的版本裡面。

Whenever I put out a song, I was always a little sad

每當我推出一首歌曲， 我總會感到有點悲傷，

that no one else was going to get to hear the things that I had heard

沒有別人能聽見

我在製作歌曲時聽見的那些東西。

when I was making it.

Let me show you what I mean. Here's a clip from a song of mine.

讓我做個示範。接下來的 這段音樂出自我作品。

(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)

（吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏）

(Cello plays a flowing melody)

（大提琴演奏接續的弦律）

OK. What's your experience when you listen to that?

好，聽這段音樂時，你有什麼體驗？

You might like it, maybe, or you might hate it,

你可能很喜歡它，也許吧， 或者你很討厭它，

or you might say, "I don't know, dude,

你可能會說：「我不知道，老兄， 才二十秒，是要我怎麼判斷？」

it's 20 seconds of a song, what do you want from me?"

Which is fair.

這樣說很公平。

What I hear is impossible to expect anyone else to hear.

我不可能期望任何人 能聽到我所聽到的。

It's not just the cello part and the guitar part and the drum beat.

它不只有大提琴的部分、 吉他的部分，以及鼓的節奏。

It's also all the things that I lived through

還有我為了創作出 這音樂所經歷的一切。

in order for that music to exist.

So in 2014, I started a show

2014 年，我開始做一個節目，

to try and solve this distance between the creator and the audience.

試圖縮短創作者和觀眾之間的距離。

I interviewed musicians about one of their songs

我會訪問音樂家，再將之結合

談他們的一首歌曲，再將之結合

and then combined that with the different layers of music

形塑那個首歌曲的不同層次。

that make up that song.

I thought this way an artist could bring a listener in

我認為藝術家可以 用這種方式帶聽眾進門，

and give them a guided tour of this house they made.

引導聽眾參觀他建造的房子。

They could point to the foundation

藝術家可以指著地基，說：

and say, "This is how the song got started."

「這首歌是從這裡開始的。」

And then as more and more layers get built on top,

接著，一層一層蓋上去，

eventually the full song gets revealed.

最後，整首歌便成形了。

The show is called "Song Exploder."

這個節目叫做《歌曲傳遞者》。

It's a pod --

它是個播——（掌聲）

(Applause)

“Song Exploder” is a podcast,

《歌曲傳遞者》是個播客節目，

and it's also a TV show that I adapted for Netflix.

我也為網飛（Netflix） 把它改編成電視節目。

And over the years, I've gotten to talk

這些年來，我有榮幸和一些世界上 最偉大的音樂家談他們的創作。

to some of the biggest musicians in the world about their work.

比如佛利伍·麥克、U2、

People like Fleetwood Mac and U2, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Alicia Keys,

林曼努爾·米蘭達、艾莉西亞·凱斯、

Billie Eilish, The Roots and Yo-Yo Ma, and over 200 others.

怪奇比莉、紮根合唱團、

馬友友，以及其他兩百多人。

At first, I was really looking at those isolated pieces of music

一開始，

我著眼在這些音樂的片斷，

to do the work of revealing the inside of their respective houses.

靠它們來揭示出每間房子的內部。

But as I was having conversations with them about their songs,

但，當我在和他們談他們的歌曲時，

something happened.

有什麼發生了。

I realized that there were rooms

我發現，

談話本身當中就有 一些房間，等著被發掘，

to be discovered in the conversations themselves,

doors that could be opened.

有一些門，等著被打開。

And I started to wonder:

我開始好奇：

Could I try listening to people

我能不能把我聆聽音樂的方式 用來傾聽別人說話？

the way that I was trying to listen to music?

Because when someone tells you something, just like with a song,

因為當別人告訴你 一件事時，就像歌曲一樣，

there can be all these layers within it.

裡面可能有各種層次。

There can be all this context that you're missing

如果你只是在街頭 從外面看著房子的人，

as the person out on the street, outside of the house.

可能會有你看不到情境，

因為你在房子外面。

So to get inside, I had to listen for those moments,

為了要進到內部，

我得要去傾聽那些時刻，那些線索，

those clues where there was more to be discovered,

那裡還有更多可以發掘的，

where there was something below the surface

在我一開始看到的表面 底下還有很多很多。

of what was first presented to me.

So I borrowed from my music-listening brain,

所以，我借用了我聽音樂的大腦，

and now when I’m in a conversation, this is what I try to do.

現在當我與人交談時，我會這樣做：

Be open to new ideas.

開放接受新想法。

Stop multitasking.

別一心多用。

Let the other person know that you’re engaged,

讓對方知道你很投入，

and do it without taking your focus away from them and turning it onto you.

且這麼做的時候，不要把你的 焦點從他們身上轉到你身上。

Because of making "Song Exploder,"

因為製作《歌曲傳遞者》，

I now listen to a much wider range of music than I used to.

現在我所聽的音樂 比以前更廣泛許多。

When I was younger,

我比較年輕的時候，我還會

I used to actually pride myself on my music snobbery.

以我的音樂勢利眼為傲。

But nowadays, it just feels like I'm potentially cutting myself off

但，現在，

感覺這樣做其實是讓我自己 失去了聽到好點子的機會。

from hearing some great ideas.

And I think that’s a prerequisite when it comes to listening to people, too.

我想，傾聽別人說話時， 也有一些前提條件。

You have to go into it open-minded and curious

進入交談時，你得帶著 開放的心態和好奇心，

and ready to learn something new.

且準備要了解新東西。

Also, the instinct to multitask is so hard to turn off,

此外，很難把想要 一心多用的直覺給關掉，

but it's so important that you do it.

但關掉它是很重要的。

You know, when you're listening to music these days,

現今，當你在聽音樂時， 大部分的時候，

most of the time it's something that we do passively.

我們是被動地聽。

It's in the background.

音樂是背景，是我們 做其他事情時的配樂。

It's the soundtrack to something else that we're doing.

And I hate to say it, but between our phones and our smartwatches

我很不想說，但在我們的手機 和我們的智慧手錶之間，

and just our own wandering thoughts,

只有我們在遊盪的思路，

it's easy to get distracted,

很容易會分心，且我們 聽別人說話時也是一樣。

and we tend to listen to other people that way, too.

But you can't really get immersed if that's the case.

但，這樣的話，你不可能做到沉浸。

Imagine trying to listen to a song

想像一下，你在試著聽一首歌曲，

while singing a different song in your head.

但卻在腦海中唱另一首歌曲。

You can't do it or you can't do it well.

你做不到，或做不好。

And you can't fully appreciate what someone else is saying

如果你腦中在想著其他事， 就不可能好好聽別人在說什麼。

if you're thinking about something else.

I'm also a big believer in the power of nonverbal communication.

我也非常相信非言語溝通的力量。

Like, just the simple act of a nod

比如，只是小小的點個頭，

is a way to let the other person know that you're engaged

這種方式就可以 讓對方知道你很投入，

and also invites them to keep going and say more.

同時邀請他們繼續說下去， 並且再多說一些。

That kind of intentional, engaged silence makes space for them.

那種刻意、投入的沉默

能創造空間給他們。

Sometimes, though, you do have to actually ask for more.

不過，有時，你得開口索求更多。

You have to draw them out.

你得誘使他們說更多。

But if you can ask for what's below the surface of what they just said,

但若你能針對他們剛才說的話， 問他們在表面底下有什麼，

you might unlock some door for them

你可能就為他們解鎖了幾道門，

and invite them to go through it with you.

並邀請他們和你一起穿過那些門。

That also means turning off the instinct to talk about yourself.

這也表示，

要把想要談你自己的直覺給關掉。

I used to think that this was actually the best way to show

我以前認為，若要表示我在傾聽， 這就是最好的方式。

that I was really listening.

某人告訴我某事時，我會說：

Someone would tell me something

and I’d say, “That reminds me of this thing that happened to me,”

「那讓我想到，我也遇過這種事。」

and then I would tell a whole story of my own.

接著我會說出我自己的整個故事。

But it's kind of like listening to half a song and then saying,

但這就好像

聽了半首歌曲，然後說： 「這部分讓我想到另一首歌。」

"Oh, you know, this part reminds me of this other song,"

and then turning that first song off and going and putting on some other song,

接著就把第一首歌曲切掉， 去放另一首歌曲。

which is also something I've done.

我也會幹這種事。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But you can't get deeper if you lose the moment like that.

但如果你錯失那樣的時刻， 你就無法更深入了。

So it's a challenge to your impatience and to your selfishness

所以，你的不耐煩和自私 會受到很大的考驗，

to be engaged without making it about you.

因為你得投入，且不要 把焦點轉到你身上。

OK, and so now to ignore the advice about talking about yourself.

現在我要忽略 「不要談你自己」的建議，

I would like to talk about myself

我要來談談我自己

and tell you a little bit about me and that song that I played you a part of

和各位分享一些我的事， 及剛才播放了一小段的歌曲，

to hopefully illustrate what I'm talking about.

希望能協助說明我的意思。

Years ago, when I was making my first recordings,

數年前，我初次製作錄音時，

我會在我的臥房裡 把我的歌曲一放再放。

I would play my songs over and over and over again in my bedroom.

My music career wasn't really something I could talk about with my parents.

我沒辦法和我父母談我的音樂職涯。

They were hardworking immigrants

他們是很辛勤工作的移民，

whose dream for me had been to become a doctor or a lawyer.

他們夢想我能成為醫生或律師。

But every now and then,

但，偶爾，

I would hear my mom humming one of my songs

我會聽到我媽媽哼我的某首歌曲，

just to herself in the kitchen.

在廚房，哼給她自己聽。

And that felt like some kind of unspoken approval.

那感覺就像是某種 不用說出來的認可。

And over the years, whenever I would hear my mom humming one of my songs,

這些年來，每次聽到我媽媽 哼我的歌曲我就會很開心。

it made me so happy.

Last fall, my mom passed away.

去年秋天，我媽媽過世了。

And a few weeks after her funeral,

她的葬禮過後幾週，

I had a dream where I got to see her and talk to her

我作了個夢，在夢中我見到了她，

and visit with her for a little bit.

和她說了話，聊了一下天。

And I woke up filled with longing and sadness

我醒來之後，

充滿了渴望和悲傷，

but also gratitude for this moment and this dream.

但也很感激有這場夢，這樣的時刻。

And I ended up writing a song about it.

我後來為此寫了一首歌曲。

(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)

（吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏）

(Sings) But it's so good to see you.

（唱歌）但能見到你真好。

It's so good to see you,

能見到你真好，

see you again.

能再次見到你。

In the bridge,

在橋段的部分，我暫時停止用唱的，

I stopped singing for a little bit and I just hummed a melody.

我只把弦律哼出來。

(Humming)

（哼歌）

I was thinking about my mom,

我在想著我媽媽，

and I wanted to try and represent her in the music in some way.

我想在音樂中以某種方式表現她。

One of the people who I talked to about the song

我在寫這首歌曲時， 和一個人談過它：馬友友。

while I was making it was Yo-Yo Ma.

I told him, this is what the song is about

我告訴他，這就是這首歌曲的意義，

and this is what the music is supposed to do in this part.

音樂在這個部分應該有這樣的功能。

And I asked him, "Do you think that the cello

我問他：

「你認為大提琴能代表 我媽媽的聲音嗎？」

could represent my mom's voice?"

And he listened to everything that I said. And then he played those notes.

他聽了我說的所有內容，

接著他便彈奏了那些音符。

(Cello plays a flowing melody)

（大提琴演奏接續的弦律）

OK. Here's everything together again.

好，現在我把這些都加起來。

(Guitar plays a soft accompaniment)

（吉他演奏輕柔的伴奏）

(Cello plays a flowing melody)

（大提琴演奏接續的弦律）

So now, what’s your experience when you listen to that

現在，你聽到的感覺如何？

from inside the house?

從房子的內部聽？

Every conversation has the potential to open up and reveal

每一段談話，都有可能

可以開啟並揭露出 其內在一層一層的層次，

all the layers and layers within it,

all those rooms within rooms.

房間中的房間。

And personally, I hope that I can keep looking for those ways in

我個人很希望我能繼續 尋找進入的門路，

so I can experience the depth and the richness of someone else's ideas

那麼，每當我有機會 聽到別人的想法時，

我就能體驗到想法的深度和豐富度。

every chance I get to hear them.

For now, thanks for listening to mine.

現在則是謝謝你們傾聽我的想法。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

(Plays a soft tune)

（演奏輕柔的曲調）

(Sings) You called out my name

（唱歌）你大喊我的名字：

“Bring me some water, my love”

「拿些水給我，我的摯愛。」

And it all felt the same

一切感覺都一樣，

As any other

就如同我人生中

night of my life

任何一個晚上，

We lived at home back then

那時我們住在家裡，

It still feels like home in my sleep

現在，在我的睡夢中， 感覺仍然像家。

I woke to dark again

又一次，我醒來時面對著黑暗，

For a moment

有那麼一刻，

It was you

是你

and me

和我。

You’re a piece of a dream now

現在的你只是一個夢，

Just a little too far

只是有點太遠了。

I can still hear your voice through

我仍然可以聽見你的聲音，穿過

The door left ajar

半開的門傳來。

But can’t see where you are

但看不見你在哪裡。

By the murmuring TV

在低語的電視旁，

You’d fall asleep to

你總會在這睡著。

in bed

在床上，

You sat and looked at me

你坐著，看著我。

I said I miss you

我說我想你。

You said,

你說：

“I know”

「我知道。」

The pictures that I’ve framed

被我錶框的照片

Don’t tell the stories in between

無法訴說期間的故事。

The moments that contain

那些時刻有著

Who you were really

對我而言真實的你。

to me

You’re a piece of a dream now

現在的你只是一個夢，

Just a little too far

只是有點太遠了。

I can still hear your voice through

我仍然可以聽見你的聲音，穿過

The door left ajar

半開的門傳來。

I guess that’s how it is now --

我想，現在就是這樣了——

The only place you’ll appear

你唯一會出現的地方，

We'll have to meet in some shadow

我們得要在幻影中見面，

Between there and here

在那裡和這裡之間，

Between there and here

在那裡和這裡之間。

But it’s so good to see you

但能見到你真好，

It’s so good to see you

能見到你真好，

See you again

能再次見到你。

(Hums a soft melody)

（哼輕柔的弦律）

You’re a piece of a dream now

現在的你只是一個夢，

Just a little too far

只是有點太遠了。

I can still hear your voice through

我仍然可以聽見你的聲音，穿過

The door left ajar

半開的門傳來。

I guess that’s how it is now --

我想，現在就是這樣了——

The only place you’ll appear

你唯一會出現的地方，

We'll have to meet in some shadow

我們得要在幻影中見面，

Between there and here

在那裡和這裡之間，

Between there and here

在那裡和這裡之間。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）