What You Can Learn from People Who Disagree With You | Shreya Joshi | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Shelley Tsang 曾雯海

OK, guys, let's go back to high school.

好，各位，咱們回到高中時代。

Does anyone remember that feeling

有人還記得這種感覺嗎：

of walking into the school cafeteria with your tray in your hand

手上拿著拖盤，走進學校自助餐廳，

and not knowing where to sit?

不知道該坐在哪裡好？

Yeah, I see some people nodding, OK, cool.

我看到有人點頭，好，很好。

You might have sat alone,

你可能會獨自一個人坐， 或，更有可能的是，

or perhaps more likely,

you looked for someone who felt familiar.

你會尋找讓你感覺熟悉的人。

You sat with a group of people that reminded you of you.

你會和一群讓你想到 你自己的人坐在一起。

And even today, when deciding where to sit,

即使現今，當必須要決定坐哪時，

how many of you chose to sit next to someone

在座有誰會選擇坐在這樣的人旁邊：

who looked or felt different from you?

看起來或感覺起來和你不同的人？

I would bet that not many of you did that.

我敢說沒有多少人會這樣做。

I guess not much changes in some situations,

我想，有些情況是從十七歲 到七十歲都不太會改變的。

whether you're 17 or you're 70.

We've all likely felt this tendency to gravitate towards people who look,

我們都很可能會想要

接近外表、想法、 行為和我們相似的人。

think and act like us.

It's comfortable, but it can also be harmful

這樣很舒適，但也可能會有害，

because this polarization that we face today

因為現今我們面臨的這種兩極化

isn't just about believing that the other side is factually wrong.

重點不只是相信對方真的錯了。

We are beginning to see the other side as malevolent beings

我們開始把對方視為懷有惡意的人，

with a hateful and hidden agenda.

背地裡有著充滿仇恨的意圖。

And you can see this.

你可以看到這個現象。

You can see this in the screaming cable news pundits,

你可以在大聲吵嚷的 有線電視新聞權威身上看到，

the politicians who vote down bills

在只因為身在對立陣營就投票 反對法案的政治人物身上看到，

just because they come from the other side of the aisle.

The hate groups that violently attack people

在用暴力攻擊非我族類者的 仇恨團體身上看到。

who are different from themselves.

When I see these things as a teenager,

當我這個青少女看到這些事情時，

I just feel so sad, so angry

我只覺得好悲傷，

好生氣，且好害怕

and so scared of this world

我轉大人之後即將進入的這個世界。

that I'm soon going to be entering as an adult.

But there's something that I found in having conversations with my peers

但，我和同儕談話時， 我發現了一件事，

that I think can be a path forward from all of this.

我認為可以引導我們 從這樣的狀況中向前走。

An approach that focuses on conversations

這一種方法著重的是 以傾聽和學習為目的的談話。

with the intent to listen and learn.

Not to win and not to agree.

目的不是要贏，不是要認同。

So I'm a 17-year-old from Naperville, Illinois.

我十七歲，來自伊利諾州內珀維爾。

In the summer before my sophomore year of high school,

在我高二開始之前的那個夏天，

I attended the ACLU National Advocacy Institute's high school program

我到華盛頓特區出席了 美國公民自由聯盟

全國倡議學會的高中活動，

in Washington, DC.

During this program,

在這個活動中，我有機會

I had the chance to take part in a lot of different political discussions.

參與許多不同的政治討論。

And I remember this one conversation about the death penalty in particular.

我特別記得其中 一段關於死刑的談話。

So back then,

那時，

I wholeheartedly believed in this meaning of an eye for an eye.

我真心相信要以牙還牙的重要性。

That punishment should be equal to the offense because, you know,

我認為懲罰要和犯下的 罪行一樣重，因為，

that's what I grew up hearing.

我長大過程聽到的就是這樣。

And so I argued the same.

所以我也這樣主張。

I was, however, met with immediate opposition.

然而，我馬上就碰到了反對意見。

My peers told me that the death penalty is state sanctioned murder

我的同儕告訴我， 死刑就是國家批准的謀殺，

and that it reinforces the very behavior that it's trying to suppress.

反而會強化了它本來 試圖壓制的行為。

I tried arguing that the death penalty deters crime,

我試著主張死刑能威嚇犯罪，

but then my peers told me that in states without the death penalty,

但接著我的同儕告訴我， 在沒有死刑的州，

the murder rate is actually significantly lower.

謀殺率其實還明顯比較低。

I then tried arguing that the death penalty brings closure

接著我主張，死刑能為 受害者家屬把一切畫上句點，

for the victim's families,

only to be told that the length between sentencing and execution

立刻有人告訴我， 判刑和行刑之間的這段時間

actually puts the victim's families through an agonizing wait period.

其實受害者家屬 還得要忍受痛苦的等待。

So by this point, I realized that this debate --

到這個時點，我了解到這場辯論——

Not going all that great for me.

風向不是朝向我這邊。

I realized that my perspective was inherited,

我發現，我的觀點 是從別人那承襲來的，

and this is when I decided to stop trying to win the debate,

此時，我決定不要再嘗試

去贏得辯論，反之， 我只是靜靜聆聽。

and instead I just listened.

And in the months that followed, I took it upon myself to learn more.

在接下來的幾個月， 我自己決定要學習更多。

I pored over articles and data

我鑽研文章和資料， 來源很廣，從比較開放的如

from sources ranging from the more liberal,

like the Brennan Center for Justice,

布瑞南司法中心，

to the more conservative, like The Heritage Foundation.

到比較保守的如美國傳統基金會。

And I learned that historically,

我發現，在歷史上，

capital punishment has been disproportionately applied

極刑被很不成比例地 用在有色人種身上。

to people of color.

And that the death penalty isn’t actually proven to deter crime.

且並沒有證據顯示死刑能威嚇犯罪。

Slowly, my thinking changed.

我的想法慢慢改變了。

And this change only happened

這改變之所以會發生，是因為

because I engaged with people who had opposing perspectives.

我和持有相反觀點的人做了交流。

You know, it's hard to break out of your own echo chamber

人很難打破自己的泡泡，因為，

because most of the time we don't realize that we're even in one

通常我們都不知道自己在泡泡 裡面，等脫離了才會發現。

until we're out of it.

But this was my first step.

但，那是我的第一步。

So shortly after this experience,

這件事之後沒多久，

I started a nonpartisan initiative called Project TEAL

我創立了一個無黨派的計畫， 叫做 TEAL 專案，

to encourage and empower high school students

旨在鼓勵和指導高中生參與政治。

to become politically involved.

We discuss a lot of different issues like education equity,

我們討論很多不同的議題，比如

教育平等、壓制選民、

voter suppression, racial justice.

種族正義。

And I've seen some amazing things happen

而我見證到

當大家能和彼此說話時 會產生多麼不凡的火花。

when people just talk to one another.

Understanding and accepting of our differences.

大家去了解並接受彼此間的歧見。

I actually remember this one conversation in the summer of 2020.

2020 年夏天的一段談話 讓我記憶猶新。

There was a boy and a girl who were debating

有一個男孩和一個女孩在辯論 「黑命貴」運動的價值。

the merit of the Black Lives Matter movement.

And I remember being afraid

我記得我很怕他們的談話 會演變成爭執。

that their conversation would evolve into an argument.

But it didn't.

但並沒有。

Instead, I learned that the girl, who is Black,

反而，我得知，那個黑人女孩

came from a family

來自曾經和警察有些 不好經驗的家庭。

that had been through a couple of rough instances with the police.

And the boy, who was the son of a cop,

而那個男孩是警察的兒子，

came from an upbringing

來自將「黑命貴」貼上 藐視警察標籤的成長環境。

in which BLM was labeled as a movement in defiance of the police.

Later on, I was surprised to learn that, though they still didn't agree,

後來，我很驚訝地發現， 雖然他們仍然有歧見，

the boy and the girl learned something

男孩和女孩都從對方身上 學到了一些以前不知道的事。

about the other that they didn't know before.

And more than that, they appreciated

更重要的是，他們能領會

how it shaped the other person's unique perspective.

這些事如何形塑了對方獨特的觀點。

And this was only possible

能有這樣的結果，是因為

because they didn't delve into a shouting match

他們沒讓場面變成 比誰嗓門大或者互相叫罵。

or call each other disrespectful names.

And for me, this was an “aha!” moment.

這一刻，對我而言 是恍然大悟的一刻。

I realized that we shouldn't back away from discussing polarizing issues,

我了解到，我們不該 避而不討論兩極化的議題，

even if it's with people who disagree with us.

即使對方和我們抱持 不同意見也應該去談。

Sure, it's uncomfortable,

的確，那很不舒服， 且，是的，我也同意

and yeah, I'd probably agree

that we don't change our minds most of the time.

通常我們談了不會改變心意。

But we can better understand opposing perspectives,

但我們可以更了解對立的觀點，

which can help us to better advocate for our own beliefs.

這能讓我們在鼓吹 自己的理念時能做得更好。

And maybe, just maybe,

且，也許，只是也許，

it even allows us to reach a compromise

甚至可以讓我們在情勢 必要的時候達成妥協，

when the situation demands it.

So I think the question remains.

所以，我想，這個問題尚未解答：

How can we create space for this kind of bipartisan discourse?

我們要如何創造出讓兩黨 都支持的談話空間？

Well, I think the first step is finding a community.

我認為第一步是找到一個共同體。

When I think back to my experience in the ACLU,

當我回想我在美國 公民自由聯盟的經歷時，

I think the reason we were able to have that civil discourse

我認為我們能夠進行 那種公民對話是因為

was because we recognized that we were a part of a greater cause.

我們知道我們都是 一個更偉大的目標的一部分。

And it's because my peers knew me,

也因為我的同儕認識我，

not just as an opposing voice,

不只把我當成對立的聲音， 也把我當成雪瑞雅、

but as Shreya,

their peer, their fellow teen activist and their friend.

他們的同儕、

他們的青年活動家夥伴， 及他們的朋友。

And when we are able to recognize what unites us,

當我們能夠知道是什麼 把我們團結在一起，

it becomes so much easier to have conversations

去談論分裂我們的議題 就變得容易許多。

about what divides us.

And most Americans actually validate what I have seen in practice.

大部分的美國人在現實中 證實了我所看到的現象。

While 77 percent of American voters

雖然有 77% 的美國選民

polled before the 2020 presidential election

在 2020 年總統大選 之前的民調中表示

said that they had just a few or no close friends

說他們只有幾位／完全沒有任何摯友

who supported the other side's candidate,

支持另一方的候選人，

79 percent of Americans agree

但有 79% 的美國人都同意

that creating opportunities for bipartisan civil discourse

若能創造機會

進行兩黨都支持的公民對話，就能

would be effective in reducing divisions.

有效減少分裂。

Seventy-nine percent.

79%，如果問我的話， 我會說這數字高得驚人。

That's pretty incredible, if you ask me.

We all have affinity groups that we can join.

我們都能找到自己 能參加的親和團體。

Maybe it's a friend group at your place of work,

也許是在你工作場所的友人團體、

a book club at the local library or the PTA at your kid's school.

當地圖書館的讀書社， 或者你孩子學校的家長會。

Whatever this group is,

不論是什麼團體，

try to have an uncomfortable conversation with them at least once a week.

試著和他們進行不舒服的談話，

至少一週一次。

Now, OK, what exactly constitutes as uncomfortable?

好，不舒服的條件到底是什麼？

I would say that's really up for you to decide.

我會說這要由各位自己決定。

It can be about politics, sure.

可以是和政治有關，當然。

Or it can be about a different topic entirely,

或可以和完全不同的主題有關，比如

like religion or identity.

宗教或身分認同。

Whatever this topic may be,

不論是什麼都好， 只管談談不舒服的主題，

just talk about something that’s uncomfortable, unconventional

不因循守舊的主題， 對你有意義的主題。

and meaningful to you.

And most importantly,

最重要的是，談話的目的 是要傾聽和學習，

do it with the intent to listen and learn,

not to win and not to agree.

而不是要贏，不是要認同。

And you know, another tip.

還有一個密訣。

進行這場談話的時候，別碰手機。

Make sure to stay off of your phone for this conversation.

Yeah.

是啊。

You know, as someone who's pretty much obsessed with TikTok,

我身為一個很迷抖音的人，

I completely understand how addicting social media can be.

我完全了解社群媒體能有多誘人。

Believe me.

相信我。

But by discussing polarizing issues online,

但若在線上討論兩極化的議題，

we lose that person-to-person connection

我們會失去讓對立觀點 更有人性的人與人連結，

that really humanizes opposing perspectives,

that allows us to see and empathize with one another.

有這種連結我們才能 看見並同理彼此。

Because by having these conversations,

因為透過進行這類談話，

you will gain insight into people who think differently than you do.

你能夠更深入了解 和你想法不同的人。

And who knows, maybe you'll convince someone

誰知道呢，也許，

你能用你真心相信的理念 說服某人，或者，

of a belief that you hold dearly,

or maybe you'll even be moved to reconsider your own viewpoint.

也許你甚至會被打動 而重新思考你自己的觀點。

In a month's time, I'm going to be graduating from high school.

再一個月我就要從高中畢業了。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Over the past four years,

在過去四年，

I’ve learned a lot about creating positive discourse,

關於創造正面談話，我學了很多，

but I’m still scared of this polarization,

但我仍然很害怕這種兩極化，

this growing unwillingness to view those who politically disagree with us

越來越不願意把在政治上 和我們意見相佐的人視為人。

as human.

Honestly, it's a little overwhelming

老實說，想到這點 就覺得有點不知所措：

to think that I'm soon going to enter this reality

我很快就要進入這個現實中， 實際面對這種分裂了。

where I'll be confronted with this division.

Where I’ll be stereotyped and judged by my ideology, my identity

在那裡，會有人根本 不認識真正的我就根據我的

and my way of thinking by people who don't even know the real me.

意識形態、身分認同、想法 來給我貼標籤，來評斷我。

As a teenager, it's a lot.

身為青少女，這壓力很大。

And I know that many of my fellow Gen Zers feel the exact same way.

我知道很多跟我一樣的 Z 世代也有同感。

And this is precisely why addressing this polarization crisis is so urgent

這正是為什麼需要盡快 處理這種兩極化危機，

and demands action from all of us.

且需要所有人採取行動。

Just for one moment,

花一點點時間， 回到高中的自助餐廳，

go back to that high school cafeteria,

But this time you sit down with that other crowd.

但這回，去和另一群人坐在一起，

The kids who didn't look or think like you do.

外表或想法和你不一樣的那些孩子。

And just imagine what you could have learned.

想像一下，你可能可以學到些什麼。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）