To future generations of women, you are the roots of change | Gloria Steinem

校对人员: Lening Xu

格洛丽亚·斯泰纳姆:嗨，你好。

帕特·米切尔:你好。

能邀请到您来分享真是太激动了。

当我们在TED社区征求意见，

Gloria Steinem: Yes, hello, hello.

Pat Mitchell: Hello, hello.

“ 展望未来，当谈论到站在 世界舞台的女性这个话题时，

What a thrill to have this opportunity.

When we ask all of our TED community, many of them,

你希望听到谁的声音？”

"Who would you like to hear from if we're going to look forward and onward,

答案高度一致， 那就是“格洛丽亚·斯泰纳姆”。

我知道你过于谦虚， 不太容易接受这项“殊荣”，

when it comes to women in the world?"

Unanimously, the answer was "Gloria Steinem."

那么在我们开始前，

让我回忆一下，

Now I know you're way too modest to accept that easily,

我们已经认识很多年了，

so before we move onward,

也许可以谈谈你早期发起的那场运动，

may I go back a bit,

since we have known each other for a long time,

是如何挑战刻板印象，

and talk about those early days when you were building a movement,

超越文化范式的。

在你的生命中， 一定有过一些“无所畏惧”的表现。

challenging stereotypes,

你恐怕什么以及你如何克服它们？

moving beyond cultural norms.

You must have had some manifestation of "Fearless" in your life.

是的，我当然有过很多恐惧，

其中最大的恐惧是公共演讲，

What were your fears and how did you overcome them?

就像现在这样。

因为，我们会选择 最自然的方式表达自己，

GS: No, I certainly had a lot of fears,

and chief among them was speaking in public,

我当作家也是因为我不想说话。

just like I am now.

Because, you know, we choose to express ourselves

因此我首先要克服的是 对公共演说的恐惧，

in the way that is most natural,

and I became a writer because I didn't want to talk.

因为我害怕一个人做，

So the first thing I had to overcome was the fear of public speaking,

我叫朋友和我一起——

多萝西·皮特曼·休斯， 然后是弗洛·肯尼迪，

and because I was afraid to do it by myself,

总之，我们在那种情况下，有些意外，

I asked a friend to do it with me --

一位白人女性， 一位黑人女性，一起演讲，

Dorothy Pitman Hughes, and then Flo Kennedy --

对于体现那场运动的目的， 为了所有人，非常有帮助。

anyway, so we became, in that way, somewhat accidentally,

one white woman, one Black woman, speaking together, which, you know,

在早些年，

was very helpful to express that the movement was for everyone.

当你变成一位强大的演说家，

PM: And in those early days,

尽管你会恐惧，

你也把这个说法正常化了，

when you were becoming, not only a really powerful public speaker,

成为我们许多人的圣歌，

in spite of your fears,

you were also normalizing and creating

确实地改变了我们的生活，

你站在人群前说，

response to a word that became the anthem for so many of us,

“女权主义适用于每一个女性。”

literally changing lives,

就如我现在看到， 你也知道，

standing in front of crowds and saying,

对女权主义的某些理解 仍然不是一个概念。

"Feminism is for every woman."

And I see now, as you do, that there are still ways

误解、指责、有时嘲笑。

你如何描述女权主义？

in which feminism is not understood as a concept.

Misunderstood, criticized, sometimes ridiculed.

人人完全平等这个概念是很激进的，

我们可以摆脱性别、 阶级和种族的标签，

How do you describe feminism?

GS: Well, it's just the radical idea that human beings are all equal

并开始意识到我们独特的个体。

and we can dispense with the labels of gender and class and race

当然女权主义起初被误解，

and begin to realize our unique individuality.

比如这是关于女性优越感的，

或只是一场针对女同性恋的运动，

Of course feminism was misunderstood in the beginning,

不是为了所有女性。

as if it were about female superiority

我的意思是，人们有各种误解，

or it was a movement for lesbians only,

更别提嘲笑了。

但我希望那些过去了。

not for all women.

我曾经让人们翻字典去查 女权主义，会非常有帮助。

I mean, you know, there were all kinds of misunderstandings,

（一起笑了）

not to mention ridicule.

你对新一代和下一代年轻女性怎么看？

But I hope that that's past.

I used to just send people to the dictionary

to look up feminism, very helpful.

她们与这个说法及理念的关系是什么？

(Both laugh)

PM: How do you feel the new generation

“实现平等仍然需要做很多工作”

and the next generation of young women --

what is their relationship with the word

我不那么认为，

这个说法仍然存在， 女性主义，女性解放，

and the concept of, "there's still a lot to be done

to reach that equal step"?

有各种各样的说法，

GS: Yeah, well I don't think that --

但我认为这更关乎活动的实质，

I mean, the word is still there, womanism, women's liberation,

而不必太担心形式。

there are all kinds of words,

黑人的命也是命由三个 年轻黑人女权主义者发起的。

but I think it's much more about content

and not worrying too much about form.

这是她们的创造，

So Black Lives Matter was started by three young Black feminists.

去开始改变很多需要改变的东西。

You know, that was their creation

当然她们是三位 年轻的黑人女权主义者。

that is beginning to change much that needs to be changed.

在妇女运动的早期，

And they just assumed

及一直持续下来，

that of course they were there as three young Black feminists.

我们学到的一个方法，

交流彼此可能有分歧的困难问题，

PM: And in the early days of the women's movement

and continuing all the way through,

有点像谈话圈或提高意识，

one of the ways that we have learned to talk to each other

about difficult issues in which we may have disagreements,

但这是可以用来开始重建 我们之间桥梁的方法吗？

were sort of the talking circles or the consciousness raising,

but is this something we could do

我很遗憾对分歧的强调，

to begin to build back the bridges between us?

因为我们比历史上 任何其他运动都要统一。

我认为我们应该庆幸这一事实。

GS: You know, I regret the emphasis on divisions,

because we are more unified than any other movement in history.

正如你所说的，它来自谈话圈，

So I think we ought to celebrate that fact.

过去曾被叫做意识提升小组。

它的意思是你们围坐成一个圈，

And it comes out of talking circles as you point out,

就如印第安人很久之前告诉我们那样，

which used to be called consciousness raising groups.

然后每个人轮流发言，

And it just means that you sit in a circle,

as Native Americans taught us long ago,

印度安人是传递说话棒，

每个人都得倾听别人的发言，

and you each get to speak in turn --

用这种方式， 你会说一些无法说出口的事情，

Native Americans passed around a talking stick --

而圈子的其他人会回应说，

and everybody has to listen while each person --

“哦，我也有同感。“

and in that way, you say unsayable things

于是人们发现了被分享的东西，

and somebody on the other side of the circle says,

与此同时，人们发现可以帮助彼此。

"Oh, I've experienced that too."

And you discover what is shared

没有什么可以替代这种谈话圈。

and also, you discover how you can help each other.

我想成为第一个和你一起 做志愿者的人，格洛丽亚，

There's no substitute for those kinds of talking circles.

开始谈话圈并再次传递谈话棒。

PM: I want to be the first to volunteer with you, Gloria,

让人意外的是，当人们见到你时，

to start the talking circles and passing the talking sticks again.

总会惊讶地发现，你有很强的幽默感。

One of the surprising things that people who come into your presence

在你写的许多书中， 我最喜欢的一本书就放在我床边，

are always surprised to find out what a great sense of humor you have.

书名是 —— 不喜欢说脏话的人请原谅，

And one of my favorite books of the many you have written

书名是《真相使你解脱， 但必先惹毛你！》”

sits by my bedside,

and the title of it -- forgive me those who might not like bad language --

所以我现在很好奇， 什么真相让你解脱？

the title is "The Truth Will Set You Free, But First It Will Piss You Off!"

还有什么继续惹毛你？

So I'm wondering now what truth is setting you free

其实，就在此刻，

and what continues to piss you off?

真相是新冠病毒。

我们理解这是一场普遍的经历

GS: Well, actually, right at this moment,

I mean, the truth is COVID --

和一场我们都要应对的危机，

让我恼火的是，

you know, and we understand that is a universal experience

我们不把这种经历用在积极的意义上。

and danger we're all dealing with,

and what pisses me off is that we don't use that experience

从某种意义上说，

我们从危机中学习，也从成就中学习。

in the positive sense.

这让我很恼火，

In the sense that we learn from dangers

因为它没有以积极的方式

克服种族畸视，

as well as from accomplishments.

It pisses me off that this is not used in a positive way

或者国家的边界。

to overcome the idea of categories of human beings

我意思是，我们都在地球飞船上。

（笑声）

我们都是地球飞船的公民， 新冠病毒清楚这一点，

or of national boundaries or of countries.

它本该帮助我们认识这一点。

I mean, we're all here on Spaceship Earth.

(Laughs)

当我们看现实，

We're all citizens of Spaceship Earth, and COVID knows that,

我们见证了女性的另一个伟大里程碑，

so it should help to teach us that.

当然是在这个国家，

PM: And as we're looking at our current reality,

新当选的副总统卡玛拉·哈里斯。

we've seen yet another great milestone for women,

在她的演讲中说到，

“我可能是第一个， 但我不会是最后一个。”

in this country for sure,

我想起了你我和其他人说过的很多次。

with the newly elected Vice President Kamala Harris,

who said in her speech, you know,

这有什么不同，

"I may be the first, but I won't be the last,"

在我们国家以及全世界，

and I think of the many times that you and I and others have said that.

当所有领导职位上都有更多的女性时，

What difference will it make,

我们作为领袖的不同在哪里？

in our country and around the world,

就这一点而言，

when there are more women in all leadership positions,

我们会拥有使用全部人类智慧

what are our differences as leaders?

而非只是一个小群体的优势；

GS: Well, I mean for one thing,

这是件好事。

we will have the advantage of using all of human intelligence

我们也会让孩子们看到，

instead of only a small portion of it;

this would be a good thing.

她们随时能成为领袖，

And we will also allow children

而非只来自一个小的群体。

因为现在，当孩子们仰望领袖，

to see themselves as leaders universally,

她们不一定看到自己。

instead of just one small group.

当我们看向你， 我们看到了一位领袖，格洛丽亚，

Because right now, when kids look at leaders,

你可以自豪地指出很多事情，

they don't necessarily see themselves.

虽然我知道你不这样看。

PM: When we look at you, we see a leader, Gloria,

但是什么激励你，

and there are so many things that you could point to with pride,

在你怀疑的时候帮助你继续前行，

although I know you don't.

But what is it that motivates you

当事情看起来暗淡或让人恐惧的时候，

or keeps you on the path onward in those moments of doubt,

或你害怕时，

你有过这样的感觉吗？

是的，我当然会害怕，当然会。

or the times when things look bleak or there are fears,

or do you ever fear,

但正如某个口号所说，

ever feel those feelings?

“追随恐惧，一往无前。

GS: No, of course I fear, I mean, definitely.

恐惧是成长的标志。“

（笑声）

But as the slogan goes,

这是件好事，对吧？

是的。

"Follow the fear and do it anyway.

我深受年轻女性的鼓舞，

Fear is a sign of growth."

我一直觉得

好像我只需要等我的一些朋友出生一样。

(Laughs)

It's a good thing, right?

PM: Right.

GS: I'm so inspired by young women,

这是一场深刻的全球运动，

I mean, I keep feeling

as if I just had to wait for some of my friends to be born.

正如一直以来那样。

And to see that this is profoundly

我的意思是，你知道，

甚至是对现任总统就职后游行的反应，

a global movement, as it always has been.

在每一个地方—— 拉丁美洲，非洲，一起举行。

I mean, you know, even the response to the march right after the inauguration

这真的成为了一场全球运动，

of the current president, in every --

很大程度上感谢高科技，

Latin America, Africa, you know, were marching together.

因为我们能够看到彼此， 就和我们现在一样，

It really has become a global movement,

同时也受到了自由思想的感染。

thanks in large part to technology,

because we can see each other, as we are now,

如果女性要花 9 个月怀孕 还要照顾小孩，

and also just to the contagion of the idea of freedom, you know.

为什么男性不能

If women spend nine months being pregnant and caring for a child,

花超过那一半的时间 来照顾孩子，凭啥？

（笑声）

why isn't it that men are responsible

逻辑在逻辑学家的眼中，对吧？

for spending that much more than half the time

（笑声）

所以，不管你怎么看，

taking care of the child, hello?

(Laughs)

这是一种自由、常识、 友谊的发现。

Logic is in the eye of the logician, right?

(Laughs)

So you know, wherever you look,

在你的生活中，

there's just a discovery of freedom, of common sense, of companionship.

建立自信和激发灵感的最大源泉是什么？

PM: Is there,

of all the things in your life,

是你在全球各地建立的姐妹情谊吗？

what has been the greatest source of confidence building and inspiration?

恰恰就是其他女性。

我无法在一开始的时侯， 克服对公共演说的恐惧，

Is it the global sisterhood that you've built around the world?

GS: Well, it's just other women.

如果不是我无所畏惧的朋友，

I mean, I would not have been able to ever conquer

my fear of public speaking,

多萝西·皮特曼·休斯，

which is where we started out,

我们一起合作。

if it hadn't been for my fearless friend,

相互学习，

Dorothy Pitman Hughes,

you know, for doing it together.

不耻下问，

So you know, it's learning from each other,

那里有互助，

那里有灵感，

and just remembering to ask, really,

那里有共同意识，

because the help is there,

我希望技术可以通过这种方式帮助我们，

the inspiration is there,

the sense of community is there,

对于女性，这很重要，

and I hope that technology can help us in this way,

我们因此可以安全地沟通。

我对新冠危机感到十分遗憾和担心，

especially because for women, that's important,

because we can communicate in safety.

因为我们需要面对面感知彼此，

But I do regret and worry about the COVID emergency,

才能真正产生共情。

我期待有一天，

because we do also need to be together with all five senses

我和你可以再度共处一屋。

in order to truly empathize.

So I look forward to the day

我们一起聚过很多次了，

when you and I can once again be in the same room.

即便你没能和女同胞们在同一个房间里，

你仍然在激励她们，格洛丽亚。

PM: Well, you and I have been in a lot of the same rooms,

想了解格洛丽亚全面、完整故事，

至少是部分全面和完整的故事，

and even when you're not in the same room with women everywhere,

you have inspired them, Gloria.

有关于洛丽亚生平的电影已经拍完了。

And to see the full and total story,

片名叫《格洛丽亚》， 基于她的书 《格洛丽亚在路上》改编，

well, at least part of the full and total story,

这是你生活的写照，

the movie has been made about Gloria's life.

现在可以在Amazon Prime上点播，

It's called "The Glorias," based on her book "My Life on the Road,"

我强烈推荐。

which is certainly the way you've spent your life,

格洛丽亚，感谢你的工作，

and it's available for livestreaming on Amazon Prime

你的人生，

and I do highly recommend it.

以无畏的方式引领我们所有人向前，

Gloria, thank you for your work,

最后，你对于下一步发展，

for your life,

for the fearless way in which you have led us all forward,

有什么建议或忠告吗？

and one last next step for moving onward from you?

啊哈。

只管去做。

What advice or counsel?

（笑声）

我想我们都有点 想等待来自上天的指示，

GS: Ah.

或者我们害怕什么事情，

Just do it.

(Laughs)

如果我们早上起来说，

You know, I think we kind of wait for instructions from up there,

“好的，我要打算做这个，

or we worry or something,

我要联系三到四个人。“

and you know, if we just get up in the morning and say,

把改变想像成一棵树，

"OK, I'm going to do this,

树不是从上到下长的，

and I'm going to get in touch with three or four other people,"

所以我们不应该等待 谁告诉我们去做什么。

and just think of change as a tree, you know --

树是从下往上长的，

我们就是改变的根本。

it doesn't grow from the top down,

so we shouldn't be waiting for somebody to tell us what to do.

格洛丽亚，我们怀着感激之情 承载着你工作的根基。

It grows from the bottom up,

感谢谢参加TEDWomen 2020 。

and we are the roots of change.

PM: We are bearing the roots of your work, Gloria, with gratitude.

谢谢你把女同胞们召集在一起，

这是个奇迹。

谢谢。

Thank you very much for joining us for TEDWomen 2020.

GS: No, and thank you for bringing women together,

which is the magic.

Thank you.