Political common ground in a polarized United States | Gretchen Carlson, David Brooks

翻译人员: Queenie Lee 校对人员: Chen Zou

Chris Anderson: Welcome to this next edition of TED Dialogues.

克里斯 安德森： 欢迎收看新一期的TED对话

We're trying to do some bridging here today.

在今天节目中我们打算对接沟通

You know, the American dream has inspired millions of people

大家都知道美国梦激励着数百万人

around the world for many years.

遍布全球，影响久远

Today, I think, you can say that America is divided,

现在，我想你们可以说 美国是分裂的

perhaps more than ever,

可能比以往任何时候还严重

and the divisions seem to be getting worse.

而且分歧似乎还变得越来越严重

事实上，对于站在 各方面的人来说即使是

It's actually really hard for people on different sides

to even have a conversation.

开展对话都是很困难的

People almost feel...

大家几乎是感觉……

disgusted with each other.

你见不得我，我见不得你

Some families can't even speak to each other right now.

现在在有些人家里 彼此之间甚至都不讲话

Our purpose in this dialogue today is to try to do something about that,

我们今天对话的目的 就是希望能做些事

尝试开展一个不同的对话

to try to have a different kind of conversation,

to do some listening, some thinking, some understanding.

做一些倾听，一些思考, 一些理解

And I have two people with us to help us do that.

今天会有两个人同我一起做节目

They're not going to come at this hammer and tong against each other.

他们不准备打嘴仗

This is not like cable news.

这里可不像有线新闻

This is two people who have both spent a lot of their working life

这两位专家都花费了很多 他们的职业生涯

in the political center or right of the center.

在政治中心或权力中心上

They've immersed themselves in conservative worldviews, if you like.

他们沉浸在 保守派的世界观里

They know that space very well.

对这方面他们可是行家里手

And we're going to explore together

下面我们将一起探索

how to think about what is happening right now,

怎样理解当下 所发生的事情

and whether we can find new ways to bridge

以及是否我们可以 找到新的办法去建立联系

and just to have wiser, more connected conversations.

开展更睿智 更有连接性的谈话

With me, first of all, Gretchen Carlson,

首先有请格雷琴·卡尔森

who has spent a decade working at Fox News,

她在福克斯新闻 工作了十多年

主持“福克斯和她的朋友” 然后“实话实说”

hosting "Fox and Friends" and then "The Real Story,"

before taking a courageous stance in filing sexual harassment claims

后来，她大胆地提出 性骚扰声称

against Roger Ailes,

指控罗杰·艾尔斯

which eventually led to his departure from Fox News.

最终导致罗杰离开福克斯

David Brooks, who has earned the wrath

大卫·布鲁克斯，他引起了

of many of [The New York Times's] left-leaning readers

很多【纽约时报】的 左派读者的激怒

because of his conservative views,

因为他的保守观点

and more recently, perhaps, some of the right-leaning readers

最近有些右派的 读者也掺和进来

这是因为他对 特朗普的批评

because of his criticism of some aspects of Trump.

Yet, his columns are usually

然而，他的专栏经常是

the top one, two or three most-read content of the day

每日最多阅读榜 的前三名之一

because they're brilliant,

因为它们的很精彩的

因为它带来了心理学 社会科学的分析

because they bring psychology and social science

to providing understanding for what's going on.

去让人们知道 正在发生什么

So without further ado, a huge welcome to Gretchen and David.

所以，闲话少说，热烈欢迎 格雷琴和大卫

Come and join me.

请坐

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

So, Gretchen.

那么，格雷琴

Sixty-three million Americans voted for Donald Trump.

6300万的美国人把票 投给了唐纳德·特朗普

Why did they do this?

他们为什么会这么做？

格雷琴·卡尔森：我觉得 导这种局面是有很多原因的

Gretchen Carlson: There are a lot of reasons, in my mind, why it happened.

我的意思是：这是一个运动 但是是在很多年前就发起的

I mean, I think it was a movement of sorts, but it started long ago.

It didn't just happen overnight.

这不是一夜之间就发生的

"Anger" would be the first word that I would think of --

我想到的第一个词是“愤怒”

anger with nothing being done in Washington,

对华盛顿的无所作为 表示愤怒

anger about not being heard.

对自己的声音被无视 表示愤怒

I think there was a huge swath of the population

我觉得有很一大批人

感觉到华盛顿 从来不听他们的声音

that feels like Washington never listens to them,

you know, a good part of the middle of America, not just the coasts,

你知道，有很大一部分是 美国中部的，不仅仅是沿海的

and he was somebody they felt was listening to their concerns.

特朗普让这些人觉得 他有在倾听他们的诉求

So I think those two issues would be the main reason.

所以我认为这两个是主要原因

I have to throw in there also celebrity.

当然还得考虑他是名人

I think that had a huge impact on Donald Trump becoming president.

我认为这对唐纳德·特朗普 成为总统影响很大

CA: Was the anger justified?

CA：“愤怒”是正当合理的？

David Brooks: Yeah, I think so.

大卫·布鲁克斯：对，我认为是

在2015和2016年初年初 我写了大约30篇专栏文章

In 2015 and early 2016, I wrote about 30 columns

with the following theme:

是关于以下主题的：

don't worry, Donald Trump will never be the Republican nominee.

不用担心，唐纳德·特朗普 是绝对不会被共和党提名的

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And having done that and gotten that so wrong,

结果错得一塌糊涂

我决定后来的一整年 都去专注特朗普世界

I decided to spend the ensuing year just out in Trumpworld,

and I found a lot of economic dislocation.

我发现了很多经济失调

I ran into a woman in West Virginia who was going to a funeral for her mom.

我在西弗吉尼亚州遇到一位女士 当时，她要去参加母亲的葬礼

她说：“作为天主教徒的好处 是我们不用讲话

She said, "The nice thing about being Catholic is we don't have to speak,

and that's good, because we're not word people."

那是很好的 因为我们不是写手。”

That phrase rung in my head: word people.

那句话一直在我脑海里回响：写手

A lot of us in the TED community are word people,

在我们的TED社区里 有很多是写手

but if you're not, the economy has not been angled toward you,

但如果你不是，经济 将和你无缘

and so 11 million men, for example, are out of the labor force

举个例子 1100万的人失去了工作

because those jobs are done away.

这些工作已经不存在了

A lot of social injury.

造成了很多社会创伤

You used to be able to say, "I'm not the richest person in the world,

以前你可能会说， “虽然我不是世界上最有钱的

I'm not the most famous,

也不是最有名的

但我的邻居可以信任我 我觉得可以有些自尊。”

but my neighbors can count on me and I get some dignity out of that."

And because of celebritification or whatever, if you're not rich or famous,

现在因为名气或什么的 如果你不富有或是有名

你感觉自己被当成空气

you feel invisible.

And a lot of moral injury, sense of feeling betrayed,

而且还有很多道德上的伤害 被背叛的感觉

and frankly, in this country, we almost have one success story,

坦白地说，在这个国家 我们几乎只有一个成功的故事

which is you go to college, get a white-collar job, and you're a success,

那就是你上完大学 找份白领的工作，你就是成功的

and if you don't fit in that formula,

那么如果你不符合那个公式

you feel like you're not respected.

你会觉得低人一等

And so that accumulation of things --

那些事情积累起来

and when I talked to Trump voters and still do,

所以当我和特朗普的选民谈话的时候 我现在也还在做这个

I found most of them completely realistic about his failings,

我发现他们中的大部分 对他的失败是完全现实的

but they said, this is my shot.

但他们说，这是我的机会

GC: And yet I predicted that he would be the nominee,

GC：然而我预测 他会被提名

because I've known him for 27 years.

因为我认识他快27年了

He's a master marketer,

他是个营销大师

and one of the things he did extremely well

他做得非常好 的一件事

that President Obama also did extremely well,

奥巴马总统 也做得非常好的

was simplifying the message,

是简化信息

simplifying down to phrases

简化到到口号

and to a populist message.

还有很接地气的消息

Even if he can't achieve it, it sounded good.

就算他事实上做不到 听起来很不错

And many people latched on to that simplicity again.

很多人再一次被 那种简单吸引

It's something they could grasp onto:

这可是他们能理解的：

"I get that. I want that. That sounds fantastic."

“我明白了，我要的就是这个 那听起来真的是很棒。”

And I remember when he used to come on my show originally,

我记得他以前来上我的节目

before "The Apprentice" was even "The Apprentice,"

“学徒”还是那个“学徒”的时候

他就说这是排名 第一的电视节目

and he'd say it was the number one show on TV.

我回了他一句：“不，不是”

I'd say back to him, "No, it's not."

然后他说：“是的，格雷琴”

And he would say, "Yes it is, Gretchen."

我接着说：“不，不是”

And I would say, "No it's not."

But people at home would see that, and they'd be like,

但是人们在家会看到 就会说，

"Wow, I should be watching the number one show on TV."

“哇，我得去看这个 排名第一的节目”

And -- lo and behold -- it became the number one show on TV.

你瞧瞧，还真成了第一热门节目

So he had this, I've seen this ability in him

所以说，他是很有一套的 我在他身上看到了这种能力

to be the master marketer.

如何成为营销大师

CA: It's puzzling to a lot of people on the left

CA：对许多左派来说 让人搞不清楚的是

that so many women voted for him,

很多女性给他投了票

despite some of his comments.

尽管他的一些评论

GC: I wrote a column about this for Time Motto,

GC：关于这个话题 我给《时代周刊》的"座右铭"栏目写过文章

saying that I really believe that lot of people put on blinders,

文章里写到，我真的相信 很多人闭着眼睛装瞎

and maybe for the first time,

而且可能有史以来第一次

some people decided that policies they believed in

有些人觉得 他们认同的政策

and being heard and not being invisible anymore

以及他们能够被倾听 能够不再无足轻重

was more important to them

这些对他们来说

than the way in which he had acted or acts as a human.

比特朗普身为一个人还要重要

And so human dignity --

所以人类的尊严

whether it would be the dust-up about the disabled reporter,

不管是特朗普跟 残障记者的口水战

or what happened in that audiotape with Billy Bush

还是跟比利·布什的录音带事件

and the way in which he spoke about women --

当然还有他调侃女人的方式

they put that aside

他们把这些放在了一旁

and pretended as if they hadn't seen that or heard that,

装聋作哑 视而不见

because to them, policies were more important.

对他们来说 政策才更重要

CA: Right, so just because someone voted for Trump,

CA：是的，那么仅仅因为 这些人给特朗普投票

it's not blind adherence to everything that he's said or stood for.

不代表他们就盲目地 支持他所说的一切

GC: No. I heard a lot of people that would say to me,

GC：没有的，我听很多人跟我讲

"Wow, I just wish he would shut up before the election.

“老天呐，我希望他 在选举前闭嘴

If he would just stay quiet, he'd get elected."

他只要安静点 他是可以当选的

CA: And so, maybe for people on the left there's a trap there,

CA：所以，也许对左派来说 这有一个陷阱

to sort of despise or just be baffled by the support,

被支持者鄙视 或仅仅是对他们感到困惑

assuming that it's for some of the unattractive features.

假设那是为了 一些毫无新意的事情

Actually, maybe they're supporting him despite those,

但实际上就算这样 他们也还是会支持他的

因为他们看到让人兴奋的东西

because they see something exciting.

They see a man of action.

他们看到了在行动的人

They see the choking hold of government being thrown off in some way

他们看到政府桎梏 就这么被甩掉

and they're excited by that.

人们对此感到兴奋

GC: But don't forget we saw that on the left as well -- Bernie Sanders.

GC：但别忘了我们有看到 左派人士 - 伯尼·桑德斯

So this is one of the commonalities that I think we can talk about today,

所以说，我觉得这是 今天谈论的共识之一

"The Year of the Outsider," David -- right?

“外行之年”， 大卫，是不？

And even though Bernie Sanders has been in Congress for a long time,

虽然伯尼·桑德斯 在国会有很长时间了

he was deemed an outsider this time.

但这次他绝对是个外行

And so there was anger on the left as well,

于是左派也很愤怒

and so many people were in favor of Bernie Sanders.

有那么多人 赞成伯尼·桑德斯

So I see it as a commonality.

我觉得它有共通性

People who like Trump, people who like Bernie Sanders,

喜欢特朗普的人 喜欢伯尼·桑德斯的人

他们喜欢不同的政策 但骨子里却是愤怒

they were liking different policies, but the underpinning was anger.

CA: David, there's often this narrative, then,

CA：大卫，那总有这么个说法

that the sole explanation for Trump's victory and his rise

关于特朗普获胜 并崛起的唯一正解

is his tapping into anger in a very visceral way.

就是他很知道 愤怒者的心态

But you've written a bit about that it's actually more than that,

可你也写了 实际上远不止这些

that there's a worldview that's being worked on here.

其实还有个流行的世界观

Could you talk about that?

你可不可以就此谈谈？

DB：我会说特朗普知道 但坦白说我可不懂的

DB: I would say he understood what, frankly, I didn't,

which is what debate we were having.

就是我们正在开展的辩论

And so I'd grown up starting with Reagan,

我是在里根年代长大的

and it was the big government versus small government debate.

那是大小政府间的辩论

It was Barry Goldwater versus George McGovern,

巴里·戈德华特针对乔治·麦戈文

and that was the debate we had been having for a generation.

那是我们那代人的讨论

It was: Democrats wanted to use government to enhance equality,

就是：民主党想用政府加强平等

Republicans wanted to limit government to enhance freedom.

共和党想限制政府来加强自由

那就是辩论

That was the debate.

我想特朗普清楚 而两大党派却没弄懂的

He understood what I think the two major parties did not,

which was that's not the debate anymore.

就是这个不再是辩论了

The debate is now open versus closed.

当下的辩论是开放对封闭

On one side are those who have the tailwinds of globalization

一方面是全球化风生水起

and the meritocracy blowing at their back,

还有背后强大的精英团队

and they tend to favor open trade,

这些人倾向于自由贸易

open borders, open social mores,

有开放的边界，开放的公序良俗

because there are so many opportunities.

因为这里有很多的机会

On the other side are those who feel the headwinds of globalization

另一方面是逆全球化的

and the meritocracy just blasting in their faces,

他们正面对抗精英主义者

and they favor closed trade, closed borders, closed social mores,

这些人喜欢封闭的贸易 封闭的边界还有社会道德

because they just want some security.

因为他们只想要安全

And so he was right on that fundamental issue,

所以他在这个 根本问题上是对的

and people were willing to overlook a lot to get there.

人们愿意为了安全 而忽视许多东西

And so he felt that sense of security.

特朗普有种给人们安全的感觉

We're speaking the morning after Trump's joint session speech.

就在联合会议特朗普发表讲话的 第二天早上，我们说：

There are three traditional groups in the Republican Party.

共和党有三个传统团体

There are the foreign policies hawks

有外交鹰派

who believe in America as global policeman.

相信美国是 全球警察

Trump totally repudiated that view.

特朗普完全否认这个观点

Second, there was the social conservatives

第二个是社会保守派

who believed in religious liberty,

他们相信宗教自由

pro-life,

反对堕胎

prayer in schools.

学校祷告

He totally ignored that.

他完全忽视这点

There was not a single mention of a single social conservative issue.

对于任何社会保守问题 都只字未提

And then there were the fiscal hawks,

剩下的就是财富鹰派

the people who wanted to cut down on the national debt, Tea Party,

那些个想减少国债的人

还有茶党要求削减政府规模

cut the size of government.

He's expanding the size of government!

特朗普在扩大政府规模

Here's a man who has single-handedly revolutionized a major American party

就这样一个人，单枪匹马 革了美国主要政党的命

because he understood where the debate was headed

因为他很懂得如何引导辩论

before other people.

在其他人之前

And then guys like Steve Bannon come in

像史蒂夫·班农这样的人参与进来

and give him substance to his impulses.

很是给与实质性的行动

CA: And so take that a bit further,

CA：那么就那个更进一步地说

and maybe expand a bit more on your insights

也许可以延伸下你们的看法

into Steve Bannon's worldview.

关于史蒂夫·班农的世界观

Because he's sometimes tarred in very simple terms

因为他有时候 被极简地标注为

as this dangerous, racist, xenophobic, anger-sparking person.

一个危险的，种族主义者 排外的，怒火中烧的家伙

There's more to the story; that is perhaps an unfair simplification.

故事可没那么简单； 这种简化是相当不公平

DB: I think that part is true,

DB：我觉得那部分是对的

but there's another part that's probably true, too.

但这有其它部分 也有可能是对的

He's part of a global movement.

他是全球化运动的一部分

It's like being around Marxists in 1917.

像1917年兴起的马克思主义者

There's him here, there's the UKIP party, there's the National Front in France,

这里有他，有UKIP党 还有法国国民阵线

there's Putin, there's a Turkish version, a Philippine version.

有普京，土耳其 菲律宾

So we have to recognize that this is a global intellectual movement.

所以我们要体会出 这是全球知识分子运动

And it believes

人们认为

that wisdom and virtue is not held in individual conversation and civility

有些人的言谈举止跟品德不沾边

the way a lot of us in the enlightenment side of the world do.

从启蒙运动上来说 我们很多人是这样的

It's held in -- the German word is the "volk" -- in the people,

在德语中的“Volt”是人民的意思

in the common, instinctive wisdom of the plain people.

那是藏在平头老百姓 与生俱来的智慧里

And the essential virtue of that people is always being threatened by outsiders.

这些人的本质 总受到外界的威胁

And he's got a strategy for how to get there.

特朗普知道如何到达目的

He's got a series of policies to bring the people up

他有一套政策 来引导人们

and repudiate the outsiders,

而不去管外界怎么想

whether those outsiders are Islam, Mexicans, the media,

不管是伊斯兰 墨西哥人，媒体

the coastal elites...

东西海岸的精英们...

And there's a whole worldview there; it's a very coherent worldview.

这有一整套的世界观; 是非常一致的世界观

I sort of have more respect for him.

我多少有点尊敬他

I loathe what he stands for and I think he's wrong on the substance,

我很不喜欢他的主张 而且我觉得他本质上不对

but it's interesting to see someone with a set of ideas

但是有趣的是 看到有这些想法的人

find a vehicle, Donald Trump,

找到了带头大哥唐纳德·特朗普

and then try to take control of the White House

然后意图控制白宫

in order to advance his viewpoint.

为了宣扬他的观点

CA: So it's almost become, like, that the core question of our time now is:

CA：所以这几乎成了当下的核心问题：

Can you be patriotic but also have a global mindset?

你可不可以保持爱国的心 但同时又有一个全球化的思维

Are these two things implacably opposed to each other?

这两个是势不两立吗？

I mean, a lot of conservatives

我想说，有很多保守党

and, to the extent that it's a different category,

在某种程度上 这属于不同的类别

a lot of Trump supporters,

很多特朗普的支持者

are infuriated by the coastal elites and the globalists

他们被东西岸精英 和全球主义者给气疯了

because they see them as, sort of, not cheering for America,

因为在他们看来，这些人 不会给美国带来喝彩

不会完全拥抱美国价值观

not embracing fully American values.

I mean, have you seen that in your conversations with people,

你在跟人交流时，有没有看出来过

in your understanding of their mindset?

从你对他们思维的理解中？

GC: I do think that there's a huge difference between --

GC：我觉得这是有很大的区别的

I hate to put people in categories, but,

我很讨厌把人分类，但是

Middle America versus people who live on the coasts.

美国中部对照沿海人士

It's an entirely different existence.

这一个完全不同的状况

And I grew up in Minnesota, so I have an understanding of Middle America,

我是在明尼苏达长大的 所以我对中部很了解

and I've never forgotten it.

我从来没有忘记过

And maybe that's why I have an understanding of what happened here,

也许这是我为什么 可以体会到发生了什么

because those people often feel like nobody's listening to them,

因为这些人老觉得 没人在倾听他们

and that we're only concentrating on California and New York.

而且人们只专注 加利福尼亚和纽约

And so I think that was a huge reason why Trump was elected.

所以我认为这是特朗普 能当选的一个很大的原因

I mean, these people felt like they were being heard.

我的意思是 这些人觉得他们有被听到

Whether or not patriotism falls into that,

爱国主义是否牵涉其中

我不是很清楚

I'm not sure about that.

I do know one thing:

但我知道一件事

a lot of things Trump talked about last night are not conservative things.

特朗普昨晚讲的很多 不是保守党的事情

要是让希拉里•克林顿 来做那个演讲

Had Hillary Clinton gotten up and given that speech,

not one Republican would have stood up to applaud.

没有一个共和党人 会起身鼓掌的

I mean, he's talking about spending a trillion dollars on infrastructure.

他提到在基础设施上要花上万亿

那不是保守的观点

That is not a conservative viewpoint.

He talked about government-mandated maternity leave.

他谈到法定产假

A lot of women may love that; it's not a conservative viewpoint.

很多女士会爱上这点 这也不是保守观点

所以这是很精彩的

So it's fascinating

that people who loved what his message was during the campaign,

那些人在竞选期间 喜欢他的讯息

I'm not sure -- how do you think they'll react to that?

我不确定 - 你觉得 他们会怎么反应？

DB: I should say I grew up in Lower Manhattan,

DB：我可能会说， 我在曼哈顿下城区长大

in the triangle between ABC Carpets, the Strand Bookstore

在ABC地毯公司和Strand书店

还有Odeon餐厅之间的三区

and The Odeon restaurant.

（笑声）

(Laughter)

GC: Come to Minnesota sometime!

GC：有空到明尼苏达州来玩！

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: You are a card-carrying member of the coastal elite, my man.

CA：你可是如假包换的 沿海精英，我的朋友

But what did you make of the speech last night?

可是对于昨晚的演讲 你怎么看？

It seemed to be a move to a more moderate position,

这好像是更 温和地进步

on the face of it.

起码从大面上看起来

DB：是的，我觉得 这是特朗普最好的演讲

DB: Yeah, I thought it was his best speech,

这个打消了他怪伽的形象

and it took away the freakishness of him.

I do think he's a moral freak,

我的确觉得他有点无厘头

and I think he'll be undone by that fact,

而且认为他会被那个事实给抵消：

the fact that he just doesn't know anything about anything

事实是他就是对于 所有的事一无所知

而且没有好奇心

and is uncurious about it.

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But if you take away these minor flaws,

但如果你不去理会这些小毛病

I think we got to see him at his best,

我想我们会看到他最赞的一面

and it was revealing for me to see him at his best,

看到他最好的一面 对我来说是有揭示性的

because to me, it exposed a central contradiction that he's got to confront,

因为对我来说，这揭示出了 他所必需面对的重要矛盾

that a lot of what he's doing is offering security.

他做的很多事情 都是有关提供安全保障的

So, "I'm ordering closed borders,

于是：“我现在命令封闭边界

I'm going to secure the world for you, for my people."

我要保护你们，我的人民。”

But then if you actually look at a lot of his economic policies,

但是，当你实际上看到 他的很多经济政策

like health care reform, which is about private health care accounts,

比如新医改 关乎个人医保账户

that's not security, that's risk.

那个不是安全的，那是风险

Educational vouchers: that's risk. Deregulation: that's risk.

教育凭证：那是风险 去除管制：那是风险

There's really a contradiction between the security of the mindset

真是有点两难：心里想要求安全

and a lot of the policies, which are very risk-oriented.

可还有那么多风险高的政策

And what I would say, especially having spent this year,

而且我要说的是，尤其 是在今年

the people in rural Minnesota, in New Mexico --

明尼苏达州乡间的人 新墨西哥州的农民

they've got enough risk in their lives.

他们的生活里有了足够的风险

And so they're going to say, "No thank you."

所以他们会说 “不，谢谢你。”

And I think his health care repeal will fail for that reason.

然后我认为他的废除医改议案 会因此而失败

CA: But despite the criticisms you just made of him,

CA：尽管你刚才对他的批评

it does at least seem that he's listening

但看起来他至少有在

广纳雅言

to a surprisingly wide range of voices;

it's not like everyone is coming from the same place.

不是所有人都 来自同一个地方

And maybe that leads to a certain amount of chaos and confusion, but --

也许这会导致 一定的混乱和困惑，但是-

GC: I actually don't think he's listening to a wide range of voices.

GC：我其实不觉得他 有在听那么多的声音

I think he's listening to very few people.

我认为他就只听 少数几个人

这是我的感觉

That's just my impression of it.

I believe that some of the things he said last night

我认为他昨晚说的 有些事情

had Ivanka all over them.

伊万卡有在全程参与

So I believe he was listening to her before that speech.

所以我认为他在演讲前 有听过她的话

And he was Teleprompter Trump last night, as opposed to Twitter Trump.

昨天晚上的特朗普是那么的义正言辞 和推特上的他截然相反

And that's why, before we came out here,

这就是在此之前，为什么我会说：

I said, "We better check Twitter to see if anything's changed."

“我们最好检查下推特 看有没有任何事有变化。”

And also I think you have to keep in mind

而且我认为你们要记住

that because he's such a unique character,

因为他是个很有个性的人

what was the bar that we were expecting last night?

昨晚我们对他的期待有多少？

Was it here or here or here?

在这么高？还是这么高？

And so he comes out and gives a looking political speech,

所以他的政治演讲 像模像样

and everyone goes, "Wow! He can do it."

然后每个人都说，“哇！他是可以做到的。”

It just depends on which direction he goes.

这完全取决于 他要朝哪个方向走

DB: Yeah, and we're trying to build bridges here,

DB：是的，我们在这里 试图对接

and especially for an audience that may have contempt for Trump,

特别是对那些 会瞧不上特朗普的观众来说

it's important to say, no, this is a real thing.

这是要说的很重要的事 不，这是真实的事

But as I try my best to go an hour showing respect for him,

但是尽管在一个小时里 我尽最大的努力去尊重他

my thyroid is surging,

我的喉头在上涌

because I think the oddities of his character

因为我认为他 古怪的性格

really are condemnatory and are going to doom him.

真的是会让他搞砸

CA: Your reputation is as a conservative.

CA：你可一直是保守人士

People would you describe you as right of center,

人们说你有点老顽固

and yet here you are with this visceral reaction against him

然而你在这里 可是心底里反对他

and some of what he stands for.

还有他所持的某些立场

I mean, I'm -- how do you have a conversation?

我的意思是，－那你怎么 跟人交流？

The people who support him, on evidence so far,

现有的迹象都表明 支持他的人

are probably pretty excited.

都是非常兴奋的

He's certainly shown real engagement

他绝对是展示出了 实实在在地参与

in a lot of what he promised to do,

在很多他之前承诺过的东西里

and there is a strong desire to change the system radically.

而且带着很强烈的欲望 来彻底变革

People hate what government has become and how it's left them out.

人们讨厌现在的政府 以及如何对他们不理不睬

GC: I totally agree with that,

GC：我完全同意这一点

but I think that when he was proposing a huge government program last night

但我觉得，当他昨晚提出 一个庞大政府计划

that we used to call the bad s-word, "stimulus," I find it completely ironic.

以前，我们常用“刺激”来讲坏话 现在发现真的很讽刺

To spend a trillion dollars on something --

在某些事上 花费一万亿美元

that is not a conservative viewpoint.

那不是保守派的立场

再一次，我真不觉得 他是共和党人

Then again, I don't really believe he's a Republican.

DB: And I would say, as someone who identifies as conservative:

DB：我认为，作为 一个保守派

first of all,

首先

保守派相信政治有局限性

to be conservative is to believe in the limitations of politics.

Samuel Johnson said, "Of all the things that human hearts endure,

赛缪尔·约翰逊说过： “凡人心所载，

how few are those that kings can cause and cure."

君王定夺有几何。”

Politics is a limited realm;

政治是有限度的

what matters most is the moral nature of the society.

最重要的是 社会的道德品质

And so I have to think character comes first,

所以我首先 会考虑人性

and a man who doesn't pass the character threshold

一个没有人格底线的人

是不会成为好总统的

cannot be a good president.

Second, I'm the kind of conservative who --

第二，我是保守的人

I harken back to Alexander Hamilton,

这让我回想起亚历山大·汉密尔顿

who was a Latino hip-hop star from the heights --

在音乐剧里，他成了拉丁裔的 嘻哈明星，从身高上 -

(Laughter)

（笑声）

but his definition of America was very future-oriented.

可他对美国的定义 是非常面向未来的

He was a poor boy from the islands

他是一个小岛上的穷小子

who had this rapid and amazing rise to success,

快速而惊人地 转身成功人士

and he wanted government to give poor boys and girls like him

他希望政府能给像他 一样贫穷的男孩和女孩

a chance to succeed,

一个成功的机会

using limited but energetic government to create social mobility.

通过有限的但是有干劲的政府 来创造社会流动性

For him and for Lincoln and for Teddy Roosevelt,

对他，对林肯 和泰迪•罗斯福来说

the idea of America was the idea of the future.

关于美国的想法 是关于未来的想法

We may have division and racism and slavery in our past,

我们过去有分裂 种族主义，还有奴隶制

but we have a common future.

但我们有一个共同的未来

The definition of America that Steve Bannon stands for is backwards-looking.

史蒂夫·班农主张的 美国定义是倒退的

It's nostalgic; it's for the past.

是旧社会的；是过去式的

And that is not traditionally the American identity.

而这可不是传统意思上 的美国身份

That's traditionally, frankly, the Russian identity.

坦白讲，在传统意义上 是俄罗斯身份

That's how they define virtue.

那是他们如何界定美德

所以我认为这是一个 彻头彻尾的背叛

And so I think it is a fundamental and foundational betrayal

of what conservatism used to stand for.

关于保守主义所持的立场

CA: Well, I'd like actually like to hear from you,

CA：那么，我真的很想 听听你的发言

and if we see some comments coming in from some of you, we'll --

如果我们让观众当中 有人发表些见解，那我们

oh, well here's one right now.

刚刚好有一个

Jeffrey Alan Carnegie: I've tried to convince progressive friends

杰弗瑞·艾伦·卡内基： 我试图说服开明的朋友

that they need to understand what motivates Trump supporters,

他们需要了解是什么 激励着特朗普的支持者

然而他们中很多人已经 放弃了去试图理解

yet many of them have given up trying to understand

in the face of what they perceive as lies, selfishness and hatred.

在他们看来是 谎言，自私和仇恨

How would you reach out to such people, the Tea Party of the left,

你怎么跟左派茶党 这些人打交道？

to try to bridge this divide?

去试图弥合鸿沟？

GC: I actually think there are commonalities in anger,

GC：我其实认为 在愤怒里有共性

正如我前面提过的

as I expressed earlier.

So I think you can come to the table, both being passionate about something.

所以我认为大家可以把自己充满热情 的事情都摆到台面上来

So at least you care.

至少你关注

And I would like to believe -- the c-word has also become

我愿意去相信 C字也变成了

a horrible word -- "compromise," right?

一个很糟糕的词 －－“妥协”，对吧？

So you have the far left and the far right,

所以我们有最左的 和最右的

and compromise -- forget it.

妥协 - 算了吧

Those groups don't want to even think about it.

那些团体想都 不会去想的

But you have a huge swath of voters, myself included,

但你有一大堆选民 包括我在内

who are registered independents,

作为登记在册的独立人士

like 40 percent of us, right?

可能有40％，对吧？

So there is a huge faction of America that wants to see change

所以在美国有很多人 希望看到变革

and wants to see people come together.

希望看到人们聚在一起

It's just that we have to figure out

事情是我们得弄清楚

如何去做

how to do that.

CA: So let's talk about that for a minute,

CA：所以让我们再对此多谈一下

because we're having these TED Dialogues, we're trying to bridge.

因为我们在做的TED对话 我们在尝试对接沟通

There's a lot of people out there, right now, perhaps especially on the left,

外面有很多人 现在，尤其是左派的

who think this is a terrible idea,

他们认为这是个糟糕的想法

that actually, the only moral response to the great tyranny

但事实上，对美国大独裁 唯一道义上的反应

that may be about to emerge in America

那也许是会即将发生的：

is to resist it at every stage, is to fight it tooth and nail,

是在每个阶段都抵制它 拼了命地反抗

试图这么做是个错误

it's a mistake to try and do this.

Just fight!

就斗争么！

Is there a case for that?

有这样的例子吗？

DB: It depends what "fight" means. If it means literal fighting, then no.

DB：这要看“斗争”的意思 如果仅字面上来说，那没有

If it means marching, well maybe marching to raise consciousness,

如果是指游行，那么 也许游行会提高意识

that seems fine.

那似乎不错

But if you want change in this country, we do it through parties and politics.

但如果你想要在这个国家改变 我们是通过党派和政治来实现的

We organize parties, and those parties are big, diverse, messy coalitions,

拉帮结派的，这些庞大 多元而凌乱的同盟

and we engage in politics,

和我们一起参与政治

and politics is always morally unsatisfying

政治总是在道德上 是不满意的

because it's always a bunch of compromises.

因为它总是 一堆妥协

But politics is essentially a competition between partial truths.

但政治本质上是一个 部分真理间的竞争

The Trump people have a piece of the truth in America.

支持特朗普的人 对美国现状还是有些真相的

I think Trump himself is the wrong answer to the right question,

我觉得特朗普自身 是对正确问题的错误答案

but they have some truth,

但他们有一些道理

and it's truth found in the epidemic of opiates around the country,

在全国上下集体 麻木中得到的真相

it's truth found in the spread of loneliness,

在孤单寂寞的迷雾 中发现的真相

it's the truth found in people whose lives are inverted.

在被生活打败的人 身上发现的真相

They peaked professionally at age 30,

30岁时，他们在职业上达到顶峰

and it's all been downhill since.

然后就一直走下坡路

And so, understanding that doesn't take fighting,

所以，理解那不需要抵抗

it takes conversation and then asking,

需要对话，然后问问自己

"What are we going to replace Trump with?"

“我们拿什么来替换特朗普？”

GC: But you saw fighting last night, even at the speech,

GC：但昨晚你看到了斗争 即使是在演讲

因为你看到了民主党的女士 穿着白衫来到这里

because you saw the Democratic women who came and wore white

以纪念妇女参政运动

to honor the suffragette movement.

I remember back during the campaign

我记得那时的运动

where some Trump supporters wanted to actually get rid of the amendment

一些特朗普的支持者 很想摆脱修正案

that allowed us to vote as women.

- 允许女性投票

It was like, what?

这算什么？

So I don't know if that's the right way to fight.

所以我不知道是否 这是正确的斗争方式

It was interesting, because I was looking in the audience,

这很有趣 因为我在观众席

想看看有没有 没穿白衫的民主党女士

trying to see Democratic women who didn't wear white.

So there's a lot going on there,

所以那里有很多事情 在发生

and there's a lot of ways to fight that are not necessarily doing that.

而且有很多斗争的方式 但不一定要这样做

CA: I mean, one of the key questions, to me, is:

CA：对我来说关键的 问题之一是：

The people who voted for Trump but, if you like, are more in the center,

投票选特朗普的人 更多的是在中部

like they're possibly amenable to persuasion --

好像他们更容易被说服

are they more likely to be persuaded by seeing a passionate uprising

他们更有可能群情奋起：

of people saying, "No, no, no, you can't!"

“不，不，不，你不能这样！”

or will that actually piss them off and push them away?

或者那会惹毛他们 然后使他们对此置之不理？

DB: How are any of us persuaded?

DB：要怎么说服我们呢？

Am I going to persuade you by saying, "Well, you're kind of a bigot,

要说服你，我会说 “你是个独断论者

你支持偏执 你支持性别歧视

you're supporting bigotry, you're supporting sexism.

You're a primitive, fascistic rise from some authoritarian past"?

你个蒙昧落后的 旧专制党派崛起的法西斯”。

That's probably not going to be too persuasive to you.

那可能对你不太有说服力

And so the way any of us are persuaded is by:

于是大家是这样被说服的：

a) some basic show of respect for the point of view, and saying,

首先对观点以示必要的尊重 然后说

"I think this guy is not going to get you where you need to go."

“我认为这个人是不会 让你去到你想去的地方的”

And there are two phrases you've heard over and over again,

还有两个耳朵都 听得起茧子的词

wherever you go in the country.

只要你还在美国

一，架空的国家

One, the phrase "flyover country."

And that's been heard for years,

这个讲了很多年了

but I would say this year, I heard it almost on an hourly basis,

但今年我会说 我几乎每个小时都在听

a sense of feeling invisible.

无孔不入的感觉

And then the sense a sense of the phrase "political correctness."

二，对于“政治正确”的体会

Just that rebellion: "They're not even letting us say what we think."

有那种逆反的心态： “他们甚至不让我们说自己想的”

And I teach at Yale.

我在耶鲁大学教书

The narrowing of debate is real.

辩论的收紧是实打实的

CA: So you would say this is a trap that liberals have fallen into

CA：所以你会说是自由主义者 自己掉进了坑里

by celebrating causes they really believe in,

通过庆祝他们 真地相信的东西

often expressed through the language of "political correctness."

常常以“政治的正确”的 语言来表达

They have done damage. They have pushed people away.

他们已经造成了损害 他们已经使人对他们置之不理

DB: I would say a lot of the argument, though,

DB：我会说，尽管很多争论

比如“骨子里的法西斯主义” “集权主义”

with "descent to fascism," "authoritarianism" --

that just feels over-the-top to people.

对人们来说有点太过了

And listen, I've written eight million anti-Trump columns,

听我说，我写了 800万的反特朗普专栏

but it is a problem, especially for the coastal media,

但这是个问题 特别是对于沿海媒体来说

that every time he does something slightly wrong, we go to 11,

每当他只是犯点小错误的时候 我们都会小题大做

and we're at 11 every day.

我们每天都在上纲上线

And it just strains credibility at some point.

而且某种程度上 是可信度的问题

CA: Crying wolf a little too loud and a little too early.

CA：狼来了的故事 有点讲过头，也太早了

But there may be a time when we really do have to cry wolf.

但可能我们还真有 对付狼来了的时候

GC: But see -- one of the most important things to me

GC：但是对我来说重要的 事情之一

is how the conservative media handles Trump.

是传统媒体如何 应对特朗普

Will they call him out when things are not true,

一旦事情不对 他们就点特朗普的名？

or will they just go along with it?

还是不去理会他？

To me, that is what is essential in this entire discussion,

对我来说这是 整个讨论的重中之重

because when you have followers of somebody

因为当有跟屁虫

who don't really care if he tells the truth or not,

不关心主子是否说实话

that can be very dangerous.

这可是相当地危险

So to me, it's: How is the conservative media going to respond to it?

所以对我来说就是： 保守媒体怎么应对？

I mean, you've been calling them out.

我的意思是你一个劲地点他的名

But how will other forms of conservative media deal with that

但是，其他保守媒体会怎么应对？

as we move forward?

随着我们向前进

DB: It's all shifted, though.

DB：一切都转换了

The conservative media used to be Fox or Charles Krauthammer or George Will.

保守媒体要么是福克斯要么是 Charles Krauthammer或George Will

现在它们不再是保守媒体

They're no longer the conservative media.

现在还有一大批的 机构继续右倾

Now there's another whole set of institutions further right,

比如说Breitbart和Infowars Alex Jones，Laura Ingraham

which is Breitbart and Infowars, Alex Jones, Laura Ingraham,

and so they're the ones who are now his base, not even so much Fox.

他们是一群他的基地 而不是福克斯

CA: My last question for the time being is just on this question of the truth.

CA：我最后的问题暂且 叫做问题的真相

I mean, it's one of the scariest things to people right now,

我是想说这是现在人们面临 最可怕的事情之一

是全国上下都没在 什么是真相上达成一致

that there is no agreement, nationally, on what is true.

I've never seen anything like it,

我从来没有见过像这样的事情

where facts are so massively disputed.

事实争议又如此巨大

Your whole newspaper, sir, is delivering fake news every day.

先生，你整个报纸 每天都在提供假消息

DB: And failing.

DB：以及失败

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: And failing. My commiserations.

CA：失败，深表同情

But is there any path

但有没有办法

whereby we can start to get some kind of consensus,

可以得到一些共识

to believe the same things?

去相信同样的事情？

Can online communities play a role here?

线上论坛可以起点作用吗？

How do we fix this?

我们如何解决这个问题？

GC: See, I understand how that happened.

GC：我明白怎么回事

That's another groundswell kind of emotion

那是另一种群情激昂

that was going on in the middle of America

正在美国中部地区上演

and not being heard,

无人理会

他们认为主流媒体有偏见

in thinking that the mainstream media was biased.

There's a difference, though, between being biased and being fake.

当然偏见和虚假之间是有区别的

To me, that is a very important distinction in this conversation.

对我来说，也是这次对话中 非常重要的区别

So let's just say that there was some bias in the mainstream media.

我们暂且认为 主流媒体是有偏见的

OK. So there are ways to try and mend that.

那么，好吧，还是有办法 去尝试弥补的

But what Trump's doing is nuclearizing that and saying,

但特朗普所作所为更加提炼了 这个问题，他说：

"Look, we're just going to call all of that fake."

“我们会打电话给 所有这些小道消息。”

That's where it gets dangerous.

那是开始变得危险的事情

CA: Do you think enough of his supporters

CA：你认为他有足够数量的支持者

have a greater loyalty to the truth than to any ...

对真相忠贞不二？

Like, the principle of not supporting something

比如原则上不去支持那些

显然错得离谱的东西

that is demonstrably not true

actually matters, so there will be a correction at some point?

真正重要的，所以 在一定程度上是可以修正的

DB: I think the truth eventually comes out.

DB：我想真相 终会大白的

So for example, Donald Trump has based a lot of his economic policy

比方说，唐纳德•特朗普的 很多经济政策基于

on this supposition that Americans have lost manufacturing jobs

美国人失去了制造业的工作 得设想

because they've been stolen by the Chinese.

是因为被中国人偷走了

That is maybe 13 percent of the jobs that left.

可能还剩下13%的工作

The truth is that 87 percent of the jobs were replaced by technology.

事实是87%的工作 被科技所取代

That is just the truth.

那就是事实

And so as a result, when he says,

作为一个结果，当他说：

"I'm going to close TPP and all the jobs will come roaring back,"

“我要关掉TPP， 让工作都呼啦啦地回来，”

they will not come roaring back.

工作是不会呼啦啦地就回来的

So that is an actual fact, in my belief.

在我的理念里这是实打实的事实

And --

还有:

(Laughter)

（笑声）

GC：但我的意思是他的支持者 所认为的是事实

GC: But I'm saying what his supporters think is the truth,

no matter how many times you might say that,

不管你说多少次

他们仍然相信他

they still believe him.

DB: But eventually either jobs will come back or they will not come back,

DB：但最终工作要么就是会回来 要么就是不会回来

and at that point, either something will work or it doesn't work,

在这一点上是否 有效起作用

and it doesn't work or not work because of great marketing,

它不起效或是在强大的 市场下不起效

it works because it actually addresses a real problem

它起效因为它实际上 解决了一个真正的问题

and so I happen to think the truth will out.

所以我认为 真相总会大白的

CA: If you've got a question, please raise your hand here.

CA：有什么问题想问的请举手！

Yael Eisenstat: I'll speak into the box.

Yael Eisenstat：我对着TED录音盒讲

My name's Yael Eisenstat.

我叫Yael Eisenstat

I hear a lot of this talk

我听到很多这样的对话

about how we all need to start talking to each other more

关于我们要如何互相之间 积极参与更多的对话

and understanding each other more,

彼此了解更多

and I've even written about this, published on this subject as well,

我甚至还发表过 有关这个话题的文章

but now today I keep hearing liberals -- yes, I live in New York,

但是现在，我还是会听自由主义者的 - 是的，我住在纽约

I can be considered a liberal --

我可以被认为是个自由主义者

we sit here and self-analyze:

我们坐在这里自省：

What did we do to not understand the Rust Belt?

我们做了什么不去 了解铁锈地带？

Or: What can we do to understand Middle America better?

或者：我们能做些什么 来更好地了解美国中部？

And what I'd like to know:

我想知道的是：

Have you seen any attempts or conversations from Middle America

你有没有看到美国中部 有任何尝试来对话？

of what can I do to understand the so-called coastal elites better?

想要更好了解所谓的沿海精英 我可以做些什么？

Because I'm just offended as being put in a box as a coastal elite

因为我对自己被归类到沿海精英的 小圈子里，感到有点冒犯

as someone in Middle America is as being considered a flyover state

可作为美国中部的人 觉得被架空

没人理会

and not listened to.

CA: There you go, I can hear Facebook cheering as you --

CA：你说到点子上了 脸书在为你叫好

（笑声）

(Laughter)

DB：我会说，作为向来保守的

DB: I would say -- and this is someone who has been conservative

all my adult life --

成年人

when you grow up conservative,

当你中规中矩地长大成人

you learn to speak both languages.

你得学会说两种话

Because if I'm going to listen to music,

因为如果我想听音乐

I'm not going to listen to Ted Nugent.

我不会去听泰德·牛正特

So a lot of my favorite rock bands are all on the left.

于是，很多我喜爱的摇滚乐队 都是左派

If I'm going to go to a school,

如果我要去上学

I'm going probably to school where the culture is liberal.

我可能会去文化 自由的学校

If I'm going to watch a sitcom

如果我去观看情景剧

or a late-night comedy show, it's going to be liberal.

或是午夜夜场秀 会选轻松的

If I'm going to read a good newspaper, it'll be the New York Times.

我要是读一份靠谱的报纸 那会是纽约时报

因此，你学会了说 两种话

As a result, you learn to speak both languages.

And that actually, at least for a number of years,

实际上，至少 有很多年

when I started at National Review with William F. Buckley,

当我开始跟William F. Buckley 在开播“国家评论”的时候

it made us sharper,

这让我们变得更加尖锐

because we were used to arguing against people every day.

因为我们都习惯了 每天与人争论

The problem now that's happened is you have ghettoization on the right

现在的问题是 你自我设定为右派

and you can live entirely in rightworld,

然后你完全活在右派世界里

so as a result, the quality of argument on the right has diminished,

于是右派的争论价值就会缩减

because you're not in the other side

因为你不在对方阵营

all the time.

一直以来

But I do think if you're living in Minnesota or Iowa or Arizona,

但我到觉得，如果你住在 明尼苏达，爱荷华或亚利桑那

the coastal elites make themselves aware to you,

你会意识到 沿海精英的存在

so you know that language as well,

所以你也懂这种语言

but it's not the reverse.

但它不是相反的

CA: But what does Middle America not get about coastal elites?

CA：但是，中部人民对于 沿海精英没能理解的是什么？

So the critique is,

有批评说

you are not dealing with the real problems.

你没有抓住 问题的核心

There's a feeling of a snobbishness, an elitism that is very off-putting.

很惹人嫌的精英主义 都很势利眼

他们少了些什么？

What are they missing?

If you could plant one piece of truth

如果你能播种一条真理

from the mindset of someone in this room, for example,

比方说 种到在场人的心田上

what would you say to them?

你会对他们说什么呢？

DB: Just how insanely wonderful we are.

DB：仅仅是我们有如何疯狂地优秀？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

No, I reject the category.

不，我拒绝分类

The problem with populism is the same problem with elitism.

民粹主义和精英主义 有同样的问题

It's just a prejudice on the basis

这就是偏见

of probably an over-generalized social class distinction

对过分广义的社会阶级

which is too simplistic to apply in reality.

简单粗俗 脱离现实

Those of us in New York know there are some people in New York

我们纽约人知道 纽约的有些人

who are completely awesome, and some people who are pathetic,

是非常了不起的 可也有人是可悲的

and if you live in Iowa, some people are awesome and some people are pathetic.

如果你住在爱荷华 有些人很棒，有些人很糟

这不是你有什么 学历的问题

It's not a question of what degree you have

or where you happen to live in the country.

或者你住在哪里

区别仅仅在于政治权力 简单粗暴地简化

The distinction is just a crude simplification to arouse political power.

GC：但我会鼓励人们 去看电视新闻

GC: But I would encourage people to watch a television news show

or read a column that they normally wouldn't.

或去读他们通常 不会读的专栏

So if you are a Trump supporter, watch the other side for a day,

所以如果你是特朗普的支持者 改天去看看其它阵营

because you need to come out of the bubble

因为你得脱离幻想

if you're ever going to have a conversation.

如果要想去对话

And both sides -- so if you're a liberal,

而且两方－－如果你是个自由主义者

then watch something that's very conservative.

那么看些非常保守的东西

Read a column that is not something you would normally read,

读些平时不翻的专栏

because then you gain perspective of what the other side is thinking,

因为这样你增加对保守派 立场的一些理解

and to me, that's a start of coming together.

对我而言，这只是 走到一起的开始

I worry about the same thing you worry about, these bubbles.

我担心你在担心的 同样的事情 - 这些幻像

I think if you only watch certain entities,

我认为如果你仅仅 看个别事例

you have no idea what the rest of the world is talking about.

你不知道世界上 其它地方在说什么

DB: I think not only watching,

DB：我想不仅仅是观察

being part of an organization that meets at least once a month

作为社团成员至少 每月去碰个头，见个面

that puts you in direct contact with people completely unlike yourself

让你有机会直面 与你完全不同的人

我们都有责任这么做

is something we all have a responsibility for.

这么说可能有点不对

I may get this a little wrong,

but I think of the top-selling automotive models in this country,

但我认为美国最畅销的车型

I think the top three or four are all pickup trucks.

前三，前四都是小货车

So ask yourself: How many people do I know who own a pickup truck?

所以扪心自问： 我认识的人中谁有辆小货车？

And it could be very few or zero for a lot of people.

对很多人来说可能非常少

And that's sort of a warning sign kind of a problem.

这就是问题的 一种警示

Where can I join a club

在哪里我可以加入俱乐部

where I'll have a lot in common with a person who drives a pickup truck

在哪里我会跟驾驶小货车的人有共通？

because we have a common interest in whatever?

因为我们相互之间有同好？

CA: And so the internet is definitely contributing to this.

CA：当然互联网对此绝对少不了

A question here from Chris Ajemian:

下面是Chris Ajemian的问题：

"How do you feel structure of communications,

“你如何看待资讯架构？

especially the prevalence of social media and individualized content,

特别是社交媒体和 个性化内容的普及

can be used to bring together a political divide,

能否用给政治鸿沟带来新意？

instead of just filing communities into echo chambers?"

而不是到社区居委会填表登记。”

I mean, it looks like Facebook and Google, since the election,

我的意思是

自从选举以来，脸书 和谷歌都在努力解决这个问题

are working hard on this question.

They're trying to change the algorithms

他们尝试修改算法

so that they don't amplify fake news

来防止假消息被放大

to the extent that it happened last time round.

而不像上一轮普选时的那样

Do you see any other promising signs of ...?

你有看到任何 有意义的迹象吗？

GC: ... or amplify one side of the equation.

GC：...或者是放大 等式的另一边

CA: Exactly.

CA：正式

GC：我认为那是右派 吵个不停的争论

GC: I think that was the constant argument from the right,

that social media and the internet in general

大体上讲，社交媒体和互联网

was putting articles towards the top that were not their worldview.

把不是他们世界观的文章置顶

I think, again, that fed into the anger.

我想，那是火上浇油

It fed into the anger of:

结果导致人们很生气：

"You're pushing something that's not what I believe."

“你在推销那些 我不相信的东西。”

But social media has obviously changed everything,

但是社交媒体显然 已经改变了这一切

and I think Trump is the example of Twitter changing absolutely everything.

我认为特朗普是推文 改变局势很好的例子

而从他的角度来看

And from his point of view,

he's reaching the American people without a filter,

他直面美国民众

他认为媒体是这样的

which he believes the media is.

CA: Question from the audience.

CA：观众提问

Destiny: Hi. I'm Destiny.

Destiny：嗨！我是Destiny

I have a question regarding political correctness, and I'm curious:

我有个关于政治正确的问题 我很好奇：

When did political correctness become synonymous with silencing,

政治正确什么时候 成了沉默的代名词

versus a way that we speak about other people

而不是当我们论及其他人的时候

to show them respect and preserve their dignity?

很客气也很尊重对方？

GC: Well, I think the conservative media really pounded this issue

GC：我认为保守媒体 有点把这个问题讲烂了

for the last 10 years.

在过去十年里

I think that they really, really spent a lot of time

我认为他们真地 花费了很多时间

talking about political correctness,

谈论政治正确性

and how people should have the ability to say what they think.

以及人们应该如何 有能力表达自己的想法

Another reason why Trump became so popular:

特朗普变得如此受欢迎的 另一个原因：

because he says what he thinks.

是因为他说他所想的

It also makes me think about the fact

这也让我想起了

that I do believe there are a lot of people in America

我的确相信有很多美国人

who agree with Steve Bannon,

认同史蒂夫·班农

but they would never say it publicly,

但他们从来不会公开说

and so voting for Trump gave them the opportunity

所以投票选特朗普 给了他们一次机会

to agree with it silently.

来无声地支持

DB: On the issue of immigration, it's a legitimate point of view

DB：关于移民问题 是个合法的观点

that we have too many immigrants in the country,

我们国家有太多移民

that it's economically costly.

那可是相当烧钱

CA: That we have too many --

CA：我们有太多...

DB: Immigrants in the country, especially from Britain.

DB：移民在国内 尤其是来自英国的

(Laughter)

（笑声）

GC: I kind of like the British accent, OK?

GC：我好像有点英国口音，是吧？

CA: I apologize. America, I am sorry.

CA：我很抱歉。对不起，美国

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I'll go now.

我立马就走

DB: But it became sort of impermissible to say that,

DB：但是，这成了 个谈话的禁忌

because it was a sign that somehow you must be a bigot of some sort.

因为某种程度上 你得是某个死硬派

So the political correctness was not only cracking down on speech

所以政治正确 不只打击言论

that we would all find completely offensive,

我们都会找到 完全冒犯性的

it was cracking down on some speech that was legitimate,

打击一些合法的言论

and then it was turning speech and thought into action

把原本脑子里的想法 落实到行动上

and treating it as a crime,

视其为犯罪

and people getting fired and people thrown out of schools,

人们被解雇 人们被撵出学校

and there were speech codes written.

这里有书面的言论守则

Now there are these diversity teams,

现在这些五花八门的团队

where if you say something that somebody finds offensive,

在那里如果你说一些 总会有人觉得被冒犯的东西

like, "Smoking is really dangerous," you can say "You're insulting my group,"

就像“吸烟真的很危险”， 你可以说“你在诋毁我们团队”

and the team from the administration will come down into your dorm room

宿管员会敲开你的房门

and put thought police upon you.

充当国安给你做思想工作

And so there has been a genuine narrowing of what is permissible to say.

所以能说的话真是少到可怜

And some of it is legitimate.

有些还是合法的

There are certain words that there should be some social sanction against,

有些话应该 受到社会制裁

but some of it was used to enforce a political agenda.

但是有些话被用来 巩固政治图谋

CA: So is that a project

CA：那么那是不是个项目？

you would urge on liberals, if you like -- progressives --

如果你愿意你会敦促自由派，进步派

to rethink the ground rules around political correctness

就政治正确的基本规则 去重新思考

and accept a little more uncomfortable language

去接受更多一点的 有点不太舒服的语言

in certain circumstances?

在特定的环境里？

Can you see that being solved

你看这有用吗？

to an extent that others won't be so offended?

就某种程度上他人不会那么生气？

DB: I mean, most American universities, especially elite universities,

DB：我想说大多数美国大学 特别是精英大学

are overwhelmingly on the left,

绝大部分是左派

and there's just an ease of temptation

就那么潜移默化地

to use your overwhelming cultural power to try to enforce some sort of thought

试图用压倒性的文化 去尝试巩固一些思想

that you think is right and correct thought.

那些你认为正确的思想

So, be a little more self-suspicious of, are we doing that?

所以，最好能来点自我怀疑 我们是在这么做吗？

And second, my university, the University of Chicago,

再来，我的母校芝加哥大学

sent out this letter saying, we will have no safe spaces.

在这封发出去的信里说 我们将何处安身

There will be no critique of micro-aggression.

这里不会有 党同罚异的评论

If you get your feelings hurt, well, welcome to the world of education.

如果你觉得很受伤 那很欢迎来到教育的世界

I do think that policy --

我的确认为那个政策

which is being embraced by a lot of people on the left, by the way --

顺带提一下 有很多左派人士投诚

is just a corrective to what's happened.

也算是对当下的纠偏吧

CA: So here's a question from Karen Holloway:

CA：接下来是Karen Holloway的问题：

How do we foster an American culture

我们该如何培育美国文化？

that's forward-looking, like Hamilton,

像哈密尔顿一样有前瞻性

that expects and deals with change,

满怀期待并拥抱变革

rather than wanting to have everything go back to some fictional past?

而不是幻想让一切都 倒退到虚构的旧社会？

That's an easy question, right?

那不是个容易的问题，是吧？

GC：那么，我依然相信美国梦

GC: Well, I'm still a believer in the American dream,

and I think what we can teach our children is the basics,

而且我认为我们能教 孩子们的是基本

which is that hard work

就是辛勤工作

and believing in yourself

以及相信你自己

in America, you can achieve whatever you want.

在美国，你可以做到 你想做的

I was told that every single day.

我就是这么被教导长大的

When I got in the real world, I was like, wow, that's maybe not always so true.

当我步入社会，我会说 喔，也许这不总是真的

But I still believe in that.

但我还是仍然相信

Maybe I'm being too optimistic.

可能我太乐观了

So I still look towards the future for that to continue.

我仍然期待未来 那个可以延续

DB: I think you're being too optimistic.

DB：我觉得你太乐观了

GC: You do?

GC：是吗？

DB: The odds of an American young person exceeding their parents' salary --

DB：目前美国年轻人的薪水 超过其父母的比例

a generation ago, like 86 percent did it.

一代人之前，大概有86%

Now 51 percent do it.

现在是51%

There's just been a problem in social mobility in the country.

这只是国内 社会流动性的问题

CA: You've written that this entire century has basically been a disaster,

CA：你写过这整个世纪 基本上是场灾难

that the age of sunny growth is over and we're in deep trouble.

见风就长的年代已成过去 现在我们深陷困境

DB: Yeah, I mean, we averaged, in real terms, population-adjusted,

DB：是的，实际上我们调整 后的平均人口

two or three percent growth for 50 years,

50年来有2-3%增长

and now we've had less than one percent growth.

现在增长不到1%

And so there's something seeping out.

所以这里有一些事情出现

And so if I'm going to tell people that they should take risks,

所以如果我要对人们说 你们应该冒风险

one of the things we're seeing is a rapid decline in mobility,

我们面临的问题之一 就是流动性急剧下降

the number of people who are moving across state lines,

在跨州界的人数上

and that's especially true among millennials.

在千禧一代上尤为如此

It's young people that are moving less.

年轻人越来越不动

那么我们如何给予人们可以冒风险 的安全呢？

So how do we give people the security from which they can take risk?

And I'm a big believer in attachment theory of raising children,

而且，我是在培育孩子上依附理论 的相信者

and attachment theory is based on the motto

依附理论来自格言：

that all of life is a series of daring adventures from a secure base.

生活的本质是基于安全的大胆冒险

Have you parents given you a secure base?

父母有给你安定的后盾吗？

And as a society, we do not have a secure base,

作为一个社会 我们没有一个安全的基础

and we won't get to that "Hamilton," risk-taking, energetic ethos

我们不会干劲十足地 去冒“汉米尔顿式”的险

until we can supply a secure base.

直到我们能给得起 一个安全的基础

CA: So I wonder whether there's ground here

CA：所以我好奇是否 这里有根据

to create almost like a shared agenda, a bridging conversation,

去创建一个分享的议程 一个对接的对话

on the one hand recognizing that there is this really deep problem

一方面，要认识到 这是个很深层次的问题

that the system, the economic system that we built,

我们建造的的经济体制

seems to be misfiring right now.

当下似乎是熄火了

Second, that maybe, if you're right that it's not all about immigrants,

第二，也许你是对的 这不全关乎移民

it's probably more about technology,

可能更多的是科技

if you could win that argument,

如果你能讲通这观点

that de-emphasizes what seems to me the single most divisive territory

在我看来，在最最争议的 两个阵营中不再显著

between Trump supporters and others, which is around the role of the other.

围绕外人的身份 在特朗普支持者和其他人之间

It's very offensive to people on the left to have the other demonized

把其他人妖魔化 对于左派的人是很冒犯的

to the extent that the other seems to be demonized.

达到似乎被妖魔化的程度

That feels deeply immoral,

这感觉很不道德

and maybe people on the left could agree, as you said,

如你所说，左派的可能会同意

that immigration may have happened too fast,

移民可能发生得太快了

and there is a limit beyond which human societies struggle,

而且要有个限度 远超人类社会的挣扎

but nonetheless this whole problem becomes de-emphasized

可是问题变得不那么重要了

if automation is the key issue,

如果自动化是关键问题

and then we try to work together on recognizing that it's real,

然后我们要认识到 这次是来真的而通力合作

recognizing that the problem probably wasn't properly addressed

意识到问题没有被 正确地解决

or seen or heard,

所看见或所听见

and try to figure out how to rebuild communities

然后试图为 重建社区找出路

using, well, using what?

那要用什么呢？

That seems to me to become the fertile conversation of the future:

那对我来说似乎变成 未来谈话的养分

How do we rebuild communities in this modern age,

我们如何在这个现今时代 重建社区

with technology doing what it's doing,

随着科技的推进

and reimagine this bright future?

重塑这远大前程？

GC: That's why I go back to optimism.

GC：这就是我回归乐观的原因

I'm not being ... it's not like I'm not looking at the facts,

我不是...这不是说我没看事实

where we've come or where we've come from.

我们从何处来又要到哪里去

But for gosh sakes, if we don't look at it from an optimistic point of view --

可是天呐，如果我们不乐观的话

I'm refusing to do that just yet.

我现在就不打算这样

I'm not raising my 12- and 13-year-old to say, "Look, the world is dim."

我不会跟我12岁和13岁的 两孩子说：“看，世界很不明朗。”

CA; We're going to have one more question from the room here.

CA：现场我们再来一个问题

Questioner: Hi. Hello. Sorry.

提问者：嗨，你好！不好意思

You both mentioned the infrastructure plan and Russia

你们都提到了 基础设施和俄罗斯

and some other things that wouldn't be traditional Republican priorities.

还有些不是老牌共和党 优先考虑的事情

What do you think, or when, will Republicans be motivated

你们怎么认为： 共和党人何时会积极行动

to take a stand against Trumpism?

表明反特朗普主义立场？

GC: After last night, not for a while.

GC：昨晚之后，不会很久

He changed a lot last night, I believe.

我认为他昨晚变了很多

DB: His popularity among Republicans -- he's got 85 percent approval,

DB：他在共和党人中的 受欢迎度有85％

which is higher than Reagan had at this time,

这比里根当年还高

and that's because society has just gotten more polarized.

这是因为社会已经 变得更加两极化

So people follow the party much more than they used to.

人们比以往更加跟随党派

So if you're waiting for Paul Ryan and the Republicans in Congress

所以，如果你在等保尔·瑞恩 和国会的共和党人

to flake away,

走开

it's going to take a little while.

这是要花点时间的

GC: But also because they're all concerned about reelection,

GC：但也因为他们都担心连任

and Trump has so much power with getting people either for you

特朗普有如此多的权力去时人们 要么支持你

or against you,

要么反对你

and so, they're vacillating every day, probably:

所以他们可能每天都在纠结

"Well, should I go against or should I not?"

“我是要反对还是不呢？”

But last night, where he finally sounded presidential,

但昨晚，他最终听起来很有总统范

I think most Republicans are breathing a sigh of relief today.

我想大多数共和党人今天都松了口气

DB: The half-life of that is short.

DB：主意改得好快

GC: Right -- I was just going to say, until Twitter happens again.

GC：是的，我本来要说 知道推特再次发生

CA: OK, I want to give each of you the chance

CA：好的，我打算给 所有人一次机会

to imagine you're speaking to -- I don't know --

想象下你们正在和－－ 我不知道

the people online who are watching this,

和那些正在收看的人

who may be Trump supporters,

可能是特朗普的支持者

可能是来自个左派 来自中部某个地方

who may be on the left, somewhere in the middle.

How would you advise them to bridge or to relate to other people?

如何与其他人对接或是产生联系 你会怎么建议？

Can you share any final wisdom on this?

你能分享一下这个睿智吗？

Or if you think that they shouldn't, tell them that as well.

或者你认为他们不应该这么做 也不妨说说看

GC: I would just start by saying

GC：我会这么说

that I really think any change and coming together starts from the top,

我真地认为任何改变和融合 从一开就始于顶层

just like any other organization.

就像任何其它组织

And I would love if, somehow,

不知何故，我会很高兴

Trump supporters or people on the left could encourage their leaders

不管是特朗普的支持者或者 左派都可以鼓励他们的领导人

to show that compassion from the top,

从上层展现出同情心

because imagine the change that we could have

因为想象下我们已经 拥有的改变

if Donald Trump tweeted out today,

要是今天唐纳德•特朗普 发推文

向他所有的支持者

to all of his supporters,

"Let's not be vile anymore to each other.

“让我们不再互相使坏

Let's have more understanding.

让我们了解彼此

As a leader, I'm going to be more inclusive

作为一个领导者 我将更具包容性

to all of the people of America."

对所有美国人民。”

To me, it starts at the top.

对我来说，它就是从上头开始

Is he going to do that? I have no idea.

他真要去做吗？我不知道

But I think that everything starts from the top,

但我认为一切都从上层开始

and the power that he has

而且他所拥有的权力

in encouraging his supporters

可以去鼓励他的支持者

to have an understanding of where people are coming from on the other side.

去了解来自另一阵营的人民

CA: David. DB: Yeah, I guess I would say

CA：大卫。 DB：是的，我想我会说

I don't think we can teach each other to be civil,

我认为我们不能教对方有礼貌

and give us sermons on civility.

并对我们很客气

That's not going to do it.

不是这回事

It's substance and how we act,

是本质，还有我们如何应对

and the nice thing about Donald Trump is he smashed our categories.

唐纳德•特朗普好的一面 是他粉碎了界限

All the categories that we thought we were thinking in, they're obsolete.

我们以为我们所想的 全部分类，都已经过时了

They were great for the 20th century. They're not good for today.

在二十世纪这些是很了不起 但今天不好使了

他有个关闭边界和贸易的议案

He's got an agenda which is about closing borders and closing trade.

我不认为这会生效

I just don't think it's going to work.

我认为如果我们打算 重建社区，再造就业

I think if we want to rebuild communities, recreate jobs,

we need a different set of agenda

我们需要另外的一套议案

that smashes through all our current divisions and our current categories.

摧毁我们现有部门 和当下的分类

For me, that agenda is Reaganism on macroeconomic policy,

对我来说，这个议题是 宏观经济的里根主义政策

Sweden on welfare policy

瑞典的福利政策

and cuts across right and left.

跨越左右两派

I think we have to have a dynamic economy that creates growth.

我认为我们需要有个 生机勃勃的经济去创造增长

That's the Reagan on economic policy.

那就是里根的经济政策

But people have to have that secure base.

但人们得有安定的基础

There have to be nurse-family partnerships;

得有看护家庭伙伴

there has to be universal preschool;

得普及学前教育

there have to be charter schools;

得有公立学校

there have to be college programs with wraparound programs

还得有包罗万象的大学课程

为了家长和社区

for parents and communities.

We need to help heal the crisis of social solidarity in this country

我们需要协助国家 从社会危机中恢复团结

and help heal families,

抚慰家庭

and government just has to get a lot more involved

政府积极参与

in the way liberals like to rebuild communities.

就像自由主义者一样重建社区

At the other hand, we have to have an economy that's free and open

另一方面，我们得有自由和开放的经济

the way conservatives used to like.

保守派过去喜欢的那种方式

And so getting the substance right is how you smash through

所以返璞归正是如何打破

the partisan identities,

派别的身份认同

because the substance is what ultimately shapes our polarization.

因为这是最终导致 我们两极分化的本质

CA: David and Gretchen, thank you so much

CA：非常感谢大伟和格雷琴

for an absolutely fascinating conversation.

非常精彩的对话

Thank you. That was really, really interesting.

谢谢。真地很有意思

(Applause)

（掌声）

Hey, let's keep the conversation going.

嘿，让我们保持对话继续

We're continuing to try and figure out

我们也将不断尝试并弄清楚

whether we can add something here,

是否我们可以加点内容

so keep the conversation going on Facebook.

保持话题到脸书上

欢迎向我们提供你的想法 不管你来自哪个政治领域

Give us your thoughts from whatever part of the political spectrum you're on,

或者你身处何处

and actually, wherever in the world you are.

This is not just about America. It's about the world, too.

这不只是美国 这还关乎全世界

But we're not going to end today without music,

今天不来点音乐 怎么能结束呢

because if we put music in every political conversation,

如果我们在每个政治 对话中都放点音乐

the world would be completely different, frankly.

坦白说 世界会完全不一样

It just would.

一定会的

(Applause)

（掌声）

Up in Harlem, this extraordinary woman,

在哈林区，有这样一位了不起的女人

Vy Higginsen, who's actually right here --

维恩·喜金丝，她就在现场

let's get a shot of her.

请给个特写镜头

(Applause)

（掌声）

She created this program that brings teens together,

她创建了一个聚合青少年的节目

teaches them the joy and the impact of gospel music,

教给他们福音的快乐和音乐感染

and hundreds of teens have gone through this program.

目前有数百位青少年参加过这个节目

It's transformative for them.

对他们来说是变革

The music they made, as you already heard,

他们创作的，现场在播的音乐

is extraordinary,

非常了不起

and I can't think of a better way of ending this TED Dialogue

我再找不到更好的方式 来结束今天TED对话

than welcoming Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir from Harlem.

下面欢迎来自哈林区的 维恩·喜金丝福音合唱团

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（掌声）

(Singing) Choir: O beautiful for spacious skies

（歌声）合唱团：哦，广袤的天多美

For amber waves of grain

饱硕的麦浪金黄

For purple mountain majesties

庄严的山峦巍峨

Above the fruited plain

在这丰收的平原上

America!

美国！

America!

美国！

美国！

America!

America!

美国！

God shed his grace on thee

上帝保佑你

And crown thy good with brotherhood

兄弟般的情谊为你

From sea to shining sea

在亮闪闪的海面上

From sea to shining sea

在亮闪闪的海面上

(Applause)

（掌声）