Political common ground in a polarized United States | Gretchen Carlson, David Brooks

43,105 views ・ 2017-04-27

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:12
Chris Anderson: Welcome to this next edition of TED Dialogues.
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We're trying to do some bridging here today.
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You know, the American dream has inspired millions of people
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around the world for many years.
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Today, I think, you can say that America is divided,
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perhaps more than ever,
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and the divisions seem to be getting worse.
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It's actually really hard for people on different sides
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to even have a conversation.
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People almost feel...
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disgusted with each other.
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Some families can't even speak to each other right now.
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Our purpose in this dialogue today is to try to do something about that,
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to try to have a different kind of conversation,
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to do some listening, some thinking, some understanding.
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And I have two people with us to help us do that.
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They're not going to come at this hammer and tong against each other.
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This is not like cable news.
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This is two people who have both spent a lot of their working life
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in the political center or right of the center.
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They've immersed themselves in conservative worldviews, if you like.
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They know that space very well.
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And we're going to explore together
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how to think about what is happening right now,
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and whether we can find new ways to bridge
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and just to have wiser, more connected conversations.
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With me, first of all, Gretchen Carlson,
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who has spent a decade working at Fox News,
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hosting "Fox and Friends" and then "The Real Story,"
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before taking a courageous stance in filing sexual harassment claims
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against Roger Ailes,
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which eventually led to his departure from Fox News.
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David Brooks, who has earned the wrath
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of many of [The New York Times's] left-leaning readers
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because of his conservative views,
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and more recently, perhaps, some of the right-leaning readers
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because of his criticism of some aspects of Trump.
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Yet, his columns are usually
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the top one, two or three most-read content of the day
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because they're brilliant,
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because they bring psychology and social science
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to providing understanding for what's going on.
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So without further ado, a huge welcome to Gretchen and David.
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Come and join me.
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(Applause)
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So, Gretchen.
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Sixty-three million Americans voted for Donald Trump.
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Why did they do this?
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Gretchen Carlson: There are a lot of reasons, in my mind, why it happened.
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I mean, I think it was a movement of sorts, but it started long ago.
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It didn't just happen overnight.
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"Anger" would be the first word that I would think of --
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anger with nothing being done in Washington,
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anger about not being heard.
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I think there was a huge swath of the population
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that feels like Washington never listens to them,
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you know, a good part of the middle of America, not just the coasts,
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and he was somebody they felt was listening to their concerns.
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So I think those two issues would be the main reason.
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I have to throw in there also celebrity.
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I think that had a huge impact on Donald Trump becoming president.
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CA: Was the anger justified?
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David Brooks: Yeah, I think so.
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In 2015 and early 2016, I wrote about 30 columns
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with the following theme:
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don't worry, Donald Trump will never be the Republican nominee.
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(Laughter)
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And having done that and gotten that so wrong,
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I decided to spend the ensuing year just out in Trumpworld,
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and I found a lot of economic dislocation.
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I ran into a woman in West Virginia who was going to a funeral for her mom.
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She said, "The nice thing about being Catholic is we don't have to speak,
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and that's good, because we're not word people."
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That phrase rung in my head: word people.
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A lot of us in the TED community are word people,
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but if you're not, the economy has not been angled toward you,
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and so 11 million men, for example, are out of the labor force
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because those jobs are done away.
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A lot of social injury.
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You used to be able to say, "I'm not the richest person in the world,
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I'm not the most famous,
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but my neighbors can count on me and I get some dignity out of that."
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And because of celebritification or whatever, if you're not rich or famous,
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you feel invisible.
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And a lot of moral injury, sense of feeling betrayed,
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and frankly, in this country, we almost have one success story,
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which is you go to college, get a white-collar job, and you're a success,
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and if you don't fit in that formula,
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you feel like you're not respected.
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And so that accumulation of things --
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and when I talked to Trump voters and still do,
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I found most of them completely realistic about his failings,
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but they said, this is my shot.
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GC: And yet I predicted that he would be the nominee,
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because I've known him for 27 years.
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He's a master marketer,
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and one of the things he did extremely well
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that President Obama also did extremely well,
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was simplifying the message,
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simplifying down to phrases
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and to a populist message.
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Even if he can't achieve it, it sounded good.
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And many people latched on to that simplicity again.
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It's something they could grasp onto:
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"I get that. I want that. That sounds fantastic."
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And I remember when he used to come on my show originally,
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before "The Apprentice" was even "The Apprentice,"
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and he'd say it was the number one show on TV.
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I'd say back to him, "No, it's not."
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And he would say, "Yes it is, Gretchen."
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And I would say, "No it's not."
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But people at home would see that, and they'd be like,
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"Wow, I should be watching the number one show on TV."
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And -- lo and behold -- it became the number one show on TV.
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So he had this, I've seen this ability in him
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to be the master marketer.
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CA: It's puzzling to a lot of people on the left
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that so many women voted for him,
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despite some of his comments.
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GC: I wrote a column about this for Time Motto,
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saying that I really believe that lot of people put on blinders,
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and maybe for the first time,
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some people decided that policies they believed in
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and being heard and not being invisible anymore
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was more important to them
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than the way in which he had acted or acts as a human.
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And so human dignity --
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whether it would be the dust-up about the disabled reporter,
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or what happened in that audiotape with Billy Bush
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and the way in which he spoke about women --
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they put that aside
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and pretended as if they hadn't seen that or heard that,
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because to them, policies were more important.
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CA: Right, so just because someone voted for Trump,
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it's not blind adherence to everything that he's said or stood for.
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GC: No. I heard a lot of people that would say to me,
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"Wow, I just wish he would shut up before the election.
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If he would just stay quiet, he'd get elected."
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CA: And so, maybe for people on the left there's a trap there,
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to sort of despise or just be baffled by the support,
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assuming that it's for some of the unattractive features.
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Actually, maybe they're supporting him despite those,
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because they see something exciting.
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They see a man of action.
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They see the choking hold of government being thrown off in some way
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and they're excited by that.
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GC: But don't forget we saw that on the left as well -- Bernie Sanders.
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So this is one of the commonalities that I think we can talk about today,
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"The Year of the Outsider," David -- right?
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And even though Bernie Sanders has been in Congress for a long time,
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he was deemed an outsider this time.
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And so there was anger on the left as well,
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and so many people were in favor of Bernie Sanders.
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So I see it as a commonality.
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People who like Trump, people who like Bernie Sanders,
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they were liking different policies, but the underpinning was anger.
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CA: David, there's often this narrative, then,
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that the sole explanation for Trump's victory and his rise
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is his tapping into anger in a very visceral way.
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But you've written a bit about that it's actually more than that,
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that there's a worldview that's being worked on here.
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Could you talk about that?
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DB: I would say he understood what, frankly, I didn't,
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which is what debate we were having.
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And so I'd grown up starting with Reagan,
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and it was the big government versus small government debate.
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It was Barry Goldwater versus George McGovern,
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and that was the debate we had been having for a generation.
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It was: Democrats wanted to use government to enhance equality,
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Republicans wanted to limit government to enhance freedom.
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That was the debate.
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He understood what I think the two major parties did not,
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which was that's not the debate anymore.
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The debate is now open versus closed.
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On one side are those who have the tailwinds of globalization
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and the meritocracy blowing at their back,
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and they tend to favor open trade,
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open borders, open social mores,
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because there are so many opportunities.
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On the other side are those who feel the headwinds of globalization
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and the meritocracy just blasting in their faces,
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and they favor closed trade, closed borders, closed social mores,
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because they just want some security.
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And so he was right on that fundamental issue,
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and people were willing to overlook a lot to get there.
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And so he felt that sense of security.
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We're speaking the morning after Trump's joint session speech.
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There are three traditional groups in the Republican Party.
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There are the foreign policies hawks
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who believe in America as global policeman.
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Trump totally repudiated that view.
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Second, there was the social conservatives
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who believed in religious liberty,
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pro-life,
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prayer in schools.
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He totally ignored that.
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There was not a single mention of a single social conservative issue.
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And then there were the fiscal hawks,
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the people who wanted to cut down on the national debt, Tea Party,
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cut the size of government.
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He's expanding the size of government!
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Here's a man who has single-handedly revolutionized a major American party
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because he understood where the debate was headed
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before other people.
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And then guys like Steve Bannon come in
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and give him substance to his impulses.
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CA: And so take that a bit further,
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and maybe expand a bit more on your insights
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into Steve Bannon's worldview.
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Because he's sometimes tarred in very simple terms
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as this dangerous, racist, xenophobic, anger-sparking person.
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There's more to the story; that is perhaps an unfair simplification.
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DB: I think that part is true,
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but there's another part that's probably true, too.
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He's part of a global movement.
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It's like being around Marxists in 1917.
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There's him here, there's the UKIP party, there's the National Front in France,
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there's Putin, there's a Turkish version, a Philippine version.
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So we have to recognize that this is a global intellectual movement.
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And it believes
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that wisdom and virtue is not held in individual conversation and civility
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the way a lot of us in the enlightenment side of the world do.
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It's held in -- the German word is the "volk" -- in the people,
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in the common, instinctive wisdom of the plain people.
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And the essential virtue of that people is always being threatened by outsiders.
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And he's got a strategy for how to get there.
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He's got a series of policies to bring the people up
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and repudiate the outsiders,
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whether those outsiders are Islam, Mexicans, the media,
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the coastal elites...
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And there's a whole worldview there; it's a very coherent worldview.
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I sort of have more respect for him.
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I loathe what he stands for and I think he's wrong on the substance,
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but it's interesting to see someone with a set of ideas
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find a vehicle, Donald Trump,
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and then try to take control of the White House
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in order to advance his viewpoint.
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CA: So it's almost become, like, that the core question of our time now is:
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Can you be patriotic but also have a global mindset?
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Are these two things implacably opposed to each other?
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I mean, a lot of conservatives
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and, to the extent that it's a different category,
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a lot of Trump supporters,
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are infuriated by the coastal elites and the globalists
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because they see them as, sort of, not cheering for America,
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not embracing fully American values.
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I mean, have you seen that in your conversations with people,
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in your understanding of their mindset?
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GC: I do think that there's a huge difference between --
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I hate to put people in categories, but,
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Middle America versus people who live on the coasts.
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It's an entirely different existence.
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And I grew up in Minnesota, so I have an understanding of Middle America,
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and I've never forgotten it.
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And maybe that's why I have an understanding of what happened here,
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because those people often feel like nobody's listening to them,
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and that we're only concentrating on California and New York.
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And so I think that was a huge reason why Trump was elected.
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I mean, these people felt like they were being heard.
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Whether or not patriotism falls into that,
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I'm not sure about that.
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I do know one thing:
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a lot of things Trump talked about last night are not conservative things.
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Had Hillary Clinton gotten up and given that speech,
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not one Republican would have stood up to applaud.
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I mean, he's talking about spending a trillion dollars on infrastructure.
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That is not a conservative viewpoint.
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He talked about government-mandated maternity leave.
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A lot of women may love that; it's not a conservative viewpoint.
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So it's fascinating
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that people who loved what his message was during the campaign,
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I'm not sure -- how do you think they'll react to that?
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DB: I should say I grew up in Lower Manhattan,
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in the triangle between ABC Carpets, the Strand Bookstore
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and The Odeon restaurant.
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(Laughter)
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GC: Come to Minnesota sometime!
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(Laughter)
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CA: You are a card-carrying member of the coastal elite, my man.
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But what did you make of the speech last night?
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It seemed to be a move to a more moderate position,
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on the face of it.
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DB: Yeah, I thought it was his best speech,
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and it took away the freakishness of him.
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I do think he's a moral freak,
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and I think he'll be undone by that fact,
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the fact that he just doesn't know anything about anything
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and is uncurious about it.
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(Laughter)
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But if you take away these minor flaws,
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I think we got to see him at his best,
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and it was revealing for me to see him at his best,
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because to me, it exposed a central contradiction that he's got to confront,
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that a lot of what he's doing is offering security.
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So, "I'm ordering closed borders,
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I'm going to secure the world for you, for my people."
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But then if you actually look at a lot of his economic policies,
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like health care reform, which is about private health care accounts,
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that's not security, that's risk.
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Educational vouchers: that's risk. Deregulation: that's risk.
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There's really a contradiction between the security of the mindset
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and a lot of the policies, which are very risk-oriented.
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And what I would say, especially having spent this year,
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the people in rural Minnesota, in New Mexico --
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they've got enough risk in their lives.
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And so they're going to say, "No thank you."
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And I think his health care repeal will fail for that reason.
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CA: But despite the criticisms you just made of him,
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it does at least seem that he's listening
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to a surprisingly wide range of voices;
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it's not like everyone is coming from the same place.
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And maybe that leads to a certain amount of chaos and confusion, but --
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GC: I actually don't think he's listening to a wide range of voices.
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I think he's listening to very few people.
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That's just my impression of it.
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I believe that some of the things he said last night
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had Ivanka all over them.
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So I believe he was listening to her before that speech.
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And he was Teleprompter Trump last night, as opposed to Twitter Trump.
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And that's why, before we came out here,
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I said, "We better check Twitter to see if anything's changed."
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And also I think you have to keep in mind
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that because he's such a unique character,
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what was the bar that we were expecting last night?
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Was it here or here or here?
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And so he comes out and gives a looking political speech,
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and everyone goes, "Wow! He can do it."
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It just depends on which direction he goes.
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DB: Yeah, and we're trying to build bridges here,
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and especially for an audience that may have contempt for Trump,
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it's important to say, no, this is a real thing.
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But as I try my best to go an hour showing respect for him,
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my thyroid is surging,
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16:36
because I think the oddities of his character
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really are condemnatory and are going to doom him.
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CA: Your reputation is as a conservative.
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People would you describe you as right of center,
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and yet here you are with this visceral reaction against him
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and some of what he stands for.
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I mean, I'm -- how do you have a conversation?
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The people who support him, on evidence so far,
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are probably pretty excited.
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He's certainly shown real engagement
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in a lot of what he promised to do,
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and there is a strong desire to change the system radically.
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People hate what government has become and how it's left them out.
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GC: I totally agree with that,
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but I think that when he was proposing a huge government program last night
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that we used to call the bad s-word, "stimulus," I find it completely ironic.
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To spend a trillion dollars on something --
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that is not a conservative viewpoint.
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Then again, I don't really believe he's a Republican.
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DB: And I would say, as someone who identifies as conservative:
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first of all,
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to be conservative is to believe in the limitations of politics.
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Samuel Johnson said, "Of all the things that human hearts endure,
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how few are those that kings can cause and cure."
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Politics is a limited realm;
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what matters most is the moral nature of the society.
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And so I have to think character comes first,
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and a man who doesn't pass the character threshold
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cannot be a good president.
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18:00
Second, I'm the kind of conservative who --
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I harken back to Alexander Hamilton,
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18:05
who was a Latino hip-hop star from the heights --
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18:08
(Laughter)
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but his definition of America was very future-oriented.
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He was a poor boy from the islands
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who had this rapid and amazing rise to success,
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18:24
and he wanted government to give poor boys and girls like him
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a chance to succeed,
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18:28
using limited but energetic government to create social mobility.
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For him and for Lincoln and for Teddy Roosevelt,
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18:35
the idea of America was the idea of the future.
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We may have division and racism and slavery in our past,
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18:40
but we have a common future.
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The definition of America that Steve Bannon stands for is backwards-looking.
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It's nostalgic; it's for the past.
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18:48
And that is not traditionally the American identity.
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That's traditionally, frankly, the Russian identity.
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That's how they define virtue.
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And so I think it is a fundamental and foundational betrayal
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of what conservatism used to stand for.
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CA: Well, I'd like actually like to hear from you,
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and if we see some comments coming in from some of you, we'll --
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oh, well here's one right now.
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Jeffrey Alan Carnegie: I've tried to convince progressive friends
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19:10
that they need to understand what motivates Trump supporters,
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19:13
yet many of them have given up trying to understand
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19:15
in the face of what they perceive as lies, selfishness and hatred.
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How would you reach out to such people, the Tea Party of the left,
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19:21
to try to bridge this divide?
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GC: I actually think there are commonalities in anger,
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as I expressed earlier.
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So I think you can come to the table, both being passionate about something.
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So at least you care.
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And I would like to believe -- the c-word has also become
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19:39
a horrible word -- "compromise," right?
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19:42
So you have the far left and the far right,
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and compromise -- forget it.
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Those groups don't want to even think about it.
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19:48
But you have a huge swath of voters, myself included,
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19:51
who are registered independents,
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1728
19:53
like 40 percent of us, right?
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1968
19:55
So there is a huge faction of America that wants to see change
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4301
19:59
and wants to see people come together.
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20:02
It's just that we have to figure out
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20:04
how to do that.
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20:05
CA: So let's talk about that for a minute,
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20:07
because we're having these TED Dialogues, we're trying to bridge.
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20:10
There's a lot of people out there, right now, perhaps especially on the left,
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3676
20:14
who think this is a terrible idea,
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1791
20:16
that actually, the only moral response to the great tyranny
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5939
20:22
that may be about to emerge in America
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4011
20:26
is to resist it at every stage, is to fight it tooth and nail,
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3632
20:30
it's a mistake to try and do this.
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1881
20:31
Just fight!
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20:33
Is there a case for that?
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20:36
DB: It depends what "fight" means. If it means literal fighting, then no.
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3580
20:39
If it means marching, well maybe marching to raise consciousness,
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3124
20:42
that seems fine.
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1265
20:44
But if you want change in this country, we do it through parties and politics.
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4131
20:48
We organize parties, and those parties are big, diverse, messy coalitions,
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4777
20:53
and we engage in politics,
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1618
20:54
and politics is always morally unsatisfying
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20:57
because it's always a bunch of compromises.
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2477
20:59
But politics is essentially a competition between partial truths.
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3782
21:03
The Trump people have a piece of the truth in America.
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2635
21:06
I think Trump himself is the wrong answer to the right question,
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3113
21:09
but they have some truth,
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2011
21:11
and it's truth found in the epidemic of opiates around the country,
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4149
21:15
it's truth found in the spread of loneliness,
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2992
21:18
it's the truth found in people whose lives are inverted.
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2959
21:21
They peaked professionally at age 30,
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2422
21:23
and it's all been downhill since.
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2025
21:25
And so, understanding that doesn't take fighting,
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2514
21:28
it takes conversation and then asking,
436
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1951
21:30
"What are we going to replace Trump with?"
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2010
21:32
GC: But you saw fighting last night, even at the speech,
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2667
21:35
because you saw the Democratic women who came and wore white
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2868
21:38
to honor the suffragette movement.
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1708
21:39
I remember back during the campaign
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2027
21:41
where some Trump supporters wanted to actually get rid of the amendment
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3489
21:45
that allowed us to vote as women.
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21:47
It was like, what?
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2168
21:49
So I don't know if that's the right way to fight.
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2326
21:51
It was interesting, because I was looking in the audience,
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2808
21:54
trying to see Democratic women who didn't wear white.
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2555
21:57
So there's a lot going on there,
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1550
21:58
and there's a lot of ways to fight that are not necessarily doing that.
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6635
22:05
CA: I mean, one of the key questions, to me, is:
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2474
22:07
The people who voted for Trump but, if you like, are more in the center,
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5649
22:13
like they're possibly amenable to persuasion --
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3582
22:17
are they more likely to be persuaded by seeing a passionate uprising
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5791
22:22
of people saying, "No, no, no, you can't!"
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3513
22:26
or will that actually piss them off and push them away?
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3914
22:30
DB: How are any of us persuaded?
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1648
22:32
Am I going to persuade you by saying, "Well, you're kind of a bigot,
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3327
22:35
you're supporting bigotry, you're supporting sexism.
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2941
22:38
You're a primitive, fascistic rise from some authoritarian past"?
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4628
22:43
That's probably not going to be too persuasive to you.
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2685
22:45
And so the way any of us are persuaded is by:
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2641
22:48
a) some basic show of respect for the point of view, and saying,
462
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4342
22:52
"I think this guy is not going to get you where you need to go."
463
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3319
22:56
And there are two phrases you've heard over and over again,
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3380
22:59
wherever you go in the country.
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1493
23:01
One, the phrase "flyover country."
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1891
23:02
And that's been heard for years,
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1848
23:04
but I would say this year, I heard it almost on an hourly basis,
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3696
23:08
a sense of feeling invisible.
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1511
23:10
And then the sense a sense of the phrase "political correctness."
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3758
23:13
Just that rebellion: "They're not even letting us say what we think."
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4079
23:17
And I teach at Yale.
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1325
23:19
The narrowing of debate is real.
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4269
23:24
CA: So you would say this is a trap that liberals have fallen into
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3204
23:27
by celebrating causes they really believe in,
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3096
23:30
often expressed through the language of "political correctness."
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3962
23:34
They have done damage. They have pushed people away.
477
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4335
23:38
DB: I would say a lot of the argument, though,
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2148
23:41
with "descent to fascism," "authoritarianism" --
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2361
23:43
that just feels over-the-top to people.
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2189
23:45
And listen, I've written eight million anti-Trump columns,
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2783
23:48
but it is a problem, especially for the coastal media,
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2670
23:51
that every time he does something slightly wrong, we go to 11,
483
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4173
23:55
and we're at 11 every day.
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2186
23:57
And it just strains credibility at some point.
485
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2840
24:00
CA: Crying wolf a little too loud and a little too early.
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2726
24:03
But there may be a time when we really do have to cry wolf.
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2867
24:06
GC: But see -- one of the most important things to me
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2572
24:08
is how the conservative media handles Trump.
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2621
24:12
Will they call him out when things are not true,
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4573
24:16
or will they just go along with it?
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2183
24:19
To me, that is what is essential in this entire discussion,
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4029
24:23
because when you have followers of somebody
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4584
24:27
who don't really care if he tells the truth or not,
494
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3632
24:31
that can be very dangerous.
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2285
24:33
So to me, it's: How is the conservative media going to respond to it?
496
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4286
24:37
I mean, you've been calling them out.
497
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2494
24:40
But how will other forms of conservative media deal with that
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4385
24:44
as we move forward?
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1158
24:46
DB: It's all shifted, though.
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1396
24:47
The conservative media used to be Fox or Charles Krauthammer or George Will.
501
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3638
24:51
They're no longer the conservative media.
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2004
24:53
Now there's another whole set of institutions further right,
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2831
24:56
which is Breitbart and Infowars, Alex Jones, Laura Ingraham,
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5597
25:01
and so they're the ones who are now his base, not even so much Fox.
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3801
25:05
CA: My last question for the time being is just on this question of the truth.
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4087
25:09
I mean, it's one of the scariest things to people right now,
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2879
25:12
that there is no agreement, nationally, on what is true.
508
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3683
25:16
I've never seen anything like it,
509
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1790
25:18
where facts are so massively disputed.
510
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3337
25:21
Your whole newspaper, sir, is delivering fake news every day.
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3551
25:24
DB: And failing.
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1508
25:26
(Laughter)
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1088
25:27
CA: And failing. My commiserations.
514
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1956
25:29
But is there any path
515
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6290
25:35
whereby we can start to get some kind of consensus,
516
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3810
25:39
to believe the same things?
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2860
25:42
Can online communities play a role here?
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3568
25:46
How do we fix this?
519
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1169
25:47
GC: See, I understand how that happened.
520
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2038
25:49
That's another groundswell kind of emotion
521
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2199
25:51
that was going on in the middle of America
522
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2015
25:53
and not being heard,
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1233
25:55
in thinking that the mainstream media was biased.
524
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3031
25:58
There's a difference, though, between being biased and being fake.
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4066
26:02
To me, that is a very important distinction in this conversation.
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3573
26:05
So let's just say that there was some bias in the mainstream media.
527
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4498
26:10
OK. So there are ways to try and mend that.
528
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2933
26:13
But what Trump's doing is nuclearizing that and saying,
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4075
26:17
"Look, we're just going to call all of that fake."
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2538
26:19
That's where it gets dangerous.
531
1579894
1546
26:21
CA: Do you think enough of his supporters
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2861
26:24
have a greater loyalty to the truth than to any ...
533
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4245
26:28
Like, the principle of not supporting something
534
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4639
26:33
that is demonstrably not true
535
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1998
26:35
actually matters, so there will be a correction at some point?
536
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2961
26:38
DB: I think the truth eventually comes out.
537
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2290
26:40
So for example, Donald Trump has based a lot of his economic policy
538
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3156
26:43
on this supposition that Americans have lost manufacturing jobs
539
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3004
26:46
because they've been stolen by the Chinese.
540
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2042
26:48
That is maybe 13 percent of the jobs that left.
541
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2926
26:51
The truth is that 87 percent of the jobs were replaced by technology.
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3582
26:55
That is just the truth.
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1778
26:57
And so as a result, when he says,
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2662
26:59
"I'm going to close TPP and all the jobs will come roaring back,"
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3967
27:03
they will not come roaring back.
546
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1561
27:05
So that is an actual fact, in my belief.
547
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3084
27:08
And --
548
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1158
27:09
(Laughter)
549
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1299
27:11
GC: But I'm saying what his supporters think is the truth,
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2716
27:13
no matter how many times you might say that,
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2135
27:16
they still believe him.
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1206
27:17
DB: But eventually either jobs will come back or they will not come back,
553
1637238
3759
27:21
and at that point, either something will work or it doesn't work,
554
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3095
27:24
and it doesn't work or not work because of great marketing,
555
1644140
2795
27:26
it works because it actually addresses a real problem
556
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2545
27:29
and so I happen to think the truth will out.
557
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2486
27:32
CA: If you've got a question, please raise your hand here.
558
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3943
27:36
Yael Eisenstat: I'll speak into the box.
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2620
27:38
My name's Yael Eisenstat.
560
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2994
27:41
I hear a lot of this talk
561
1661667
1611
27:43
about how we all need to start talking to each other more
562
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2679
27:46
and understanding each other more,
563
1666005
1676
27:47
and I've even written about this, published on this subject as well,
564
1667705
3540
27:51
but now today I keep hearing liberals -- yes, I live in New York,
565
1671269
5110
27:56
I can be considered a liberal --
566
1676403
1723
27:58
we sit here and self-analyze:
567
1678150
1699
27:59
What did we do to not understand the Rust Belt?
568
1679873
2309
28:02
Or: What can we do to understand Middle America better?
569
1682206
2850
28:05
And what I'd like to know:
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1448
28:06
Have you seen any attempts or conversations from Middle America
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1686552
3926
28:10
of what can I do to understand the so-called coastal elites better?
572
1690502
3217
28:13
Because I'm just offended as being put in a box as a coastal elite
573
1693743
4003
28:17
as someone in Middle America is as being considered a flyover state
574
1697770
3224
28:21
and not listened to.
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1477
28:22
CA: There you go, I can hear Facebook cheering as you --
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1702519
2743
28:25
(Laughter)
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1100
28:26
DB: I would say -- and this is someone who has been conservative
578
1706410
3550
28:29
all my adult life --
579
1709984
1166
28:31
when you grow up conservative,
580
1711174
1767
28:32
you learn to speak both languages.
581
1712965
1955
28:35
Because if I'm going to listen to music,
582
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2404
28:38
I'm not going to listen to Ted Nugent.
583
1718054
2118
28:40
So a lot of my favorite rock bands are all on the left.
584
1720196
4681
28:44
If I'm going to go to a school,
585
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1538
28:46
I'm going probably to school where the culture is liberal.
586
1726463
2753
28:49
If I'm going to watch a sitcom
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1729240
1607
28:50
or a late-night comedy show, it's going to be liberal.
588
1730871
2563
28:53
If I'm going to read a good newspaper, it'll be the New York Times.
589
1733458
3183
28:56
As a result, you learn to speak both languages.
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2266
28:58
And that actually, at least for a number of years,
591
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2884
29:01
when I started at National Review with William F. Buckley,
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2818
29:04
it made us sharper,
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1744705
1480
29:06
because we were used to arguing against people every day.
594
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3627
29:09
The problem now that's happened is you have ghettoization on the right
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1749860
3309
29:13
and you can live entirely in rightworld,
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1753193
2361
29:15
so as a result, the quality of argument on the right has diminished,
597
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3471
29:19
because you're not in the other side
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2543
29:21
all the time.
599
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1253
29:22
But I do think if you're living in Minnesota or Iowa or Arizona,
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4952
29:27
the coastal elites make themselves aware to you,
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2335
29:30
so you know that language as well,
602
1770252
1686
29:31
but it's not the reverse.
603
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1428
29:33
CA: But what does Middle America not get about coastal elites?
604
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4231
29:37
So the critique is,
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3040
29:40
you are not dealing with the real problems.
606
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2762
29:43
There's a feeling of a snobbishness, an elitism that is very off-putting.
607
1783519
6461
29:50
What are they missing?
608
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1168
29:51
If you could plant one piece of truth
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3503
29:54
from the mindset of someone in this room, for example,
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5190
29:59
what would you say to them?
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2728
30:02
DB: Just how insanely wonderful we are.
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1915
30:04
(Laughter)
613
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1603
30:06
No, I reject the category.
614
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2350
30:08
The problem with populism is the same problem with elitism.
615
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3484
30:12
It's just a prejudice on the basis
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2298
30:14
of probably an over-generalized social class distinction
617
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2950
30:17
which is too simplistic to apply in reality.
618
1817433
3055
30:20
Those of us in New York know there are some people in New York
619
1820512
2942
30:23
who are completely awesome, and some people who are pathetic,
620
1823478
2927
30:26
and if you live in Iowa, some people are awesome and some people are pathetic.
621
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3734
30:30
It's not a question of what degree you have
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2068
30:32
or where you happen to live in the country.
623
1832279
2048
30:34
The distinction is just a crude simplification to arouse political power.
624
1834351
3474
30:37
GC: But I would encourage people to watch a television news show
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4585
30:42
or read a column that they normally wouldn't.
626
1842458
2669
30:46
So if you are a Trump supporter, watch the other side for a day,
627
1846041
5026
30:51
because you need to come out of the bubble
628
1851091
2021
30:53
if you're ever going to have a conversation.
629
1853136
2102
30:55
And both sides -- so if you're a liberal,
630
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2614
30:57
then watch something that's very conservative.
631
1857900
2831
31:00
Read a column that is not something you would normally read,
632
1860755
3648
31:04
because then you gain perspective of what the other side is thinking,
633
1864427
3290
31:07
and to me, that's a start of coming together.
634
1867741
2460
31:10
I worry about the same thing you worry about, these bubbles.
635
1870225
2841
31:13
I think if you only watch certain entities,
636
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2020
31:15
you have no idea what the rest of the world is talking about.
637
1875134
2931
31:18
DB: I think not only watching,
638
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2509
31:20
being part of an organization that meets at least once a month
639
1880622
3014
31:23
that puts you in direct contact with people completely unlike yourself
640
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3330
31:27
is something we all have a responsibility for.
641
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2151
31:29
I may get this a little wrong,
642
1889189
1467
31:30
but I think of the top-selling automotive models in this country,
643
1890680
3245
31:33
I think the top three or four are all pickup trucks.
644
1893949
3322
31:37
So ask yourself: How many people do I know who own a pickup truck?
645
1897295
3812
31:41
And it could be very few or zero for a lot of people.
646
1901131
3429
31:44
And that's sort of a warning sign kind of a problem.
647
1904584
2954
31:47
Where can I join a club
648
1907562
1749
31:49
where I'll have a lot in common with a person who drives a pickup truck
649
1909335
3414
31:52
because we have a common interest in whatever?
650
1912773
2175
31:54
CA: And so the internet is definitely contributing to this.
651
1914972
2812
31:57
A question here from Chris Ajemian:
652
1917808
2153
31:59
"How do you feel structure of communications,
653
1919985
2125
32:02
especially the prevalence of social media and individualized content,
654
1922134
3730
32:05
can be used to bring together a political divide,
655
1925888
2470
32:08
instead of just filing communities into echo chambers?"
656
1928382
3235
32:11
I mean, it looks like Facebook and Google, since the election,
657
1931641
4449
32:16
are working hard on this question.
658
1936114
1679
32:17
They're trying to change the algorithms
659
1937817
3818
32:21
so that they don't amplify fake news
660
1941659
3639
32:25
to the extent that it happened last time round.
661
1945322
2406
32:27
Do you see any other promising signs of ...?
662
1947752
2224
32:30
GC: ... or amplify one side of the equation.
663
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2103
32:32
CA: Exactly.
664
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1151
32:33
GC: I think that was the constant argument from the right,
665
1953302
4365
32:37
that social media and the internet in general
666
1957691
2570
32:40
was putting articles towards the top that were not their worldview.
667
1960285
3822
32:44
I think, again, that fed into the anger.
668
1964131
2942
32:47
It fed into the anger of:
669
1967097
1535
32:48
"You're pushing something that's not what I believe."
670
1968656
2780
32:51
But social media has obviously changed everything,
671
1971460
2420
32:53
and I think Trump is the example of Twitter changing absolutely everything.
672
1973904
4377
32:58
And from his point of view,
673
1978305
2003
33:00
he's reaching the American people without a filter,
674
1980332
4297
33:04
which he believes the media is.
675
1984653
2715
33:09
CA: Question from the audience.
676
1989185
2419
33:12
Destiny: Hi. I'm Destiny.
677
1992318
1825
33:14
I have a question regarding political correctness, and I'm curious:
678
1994167
4330
33:18
When did political correctness become synonymous with silencing,
679
1998521
4670
33:23
versus a way that we speak about other people
680
2003215
5115
33:28
to show them respect and preserve their dignity?
681
2008354
3139
33:31
GC: Well, I think the conservative media really pounded this issue
682
2011517
3388
33:34
for the last 10 years.
683
2014929
1864
33:36
I think that they really, really spent a lot of time
684
2016817
3361
33:40
talking about political correctness,
685
2020202
1806
33:42
and how people should have the ability to say what they think.
686
2022032
3403
33:45
Another reason why Trump became so popular:
687
2025459
2170
33:47
because he says what he thinks.
688
2027653
1878
33:49
It also makes me think about the fact
689
2029555
4632
33:55
that I do believe there are a lot of people in America
690
2035576
3035
33:58
who agree with Steve Bannon,
691
2038635
3892
34:02
but they would never say it publicly,
692
2042551
1939
34:04
and so voting for Trump gave them the opportunity
693
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3084
34:07
to agree with it silently.
694
2047622
1604
34:10
DB: On the issue of immigration, it's a legitimate point of view
695
2050636
4964
34:15
that we have too many immigrants in the country,
696
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2427
34:18
that it's economically costly.
697
2058075
1466
34:19
CA: That we have too many --
698
2059565
1356
34:20
DB: Immigrants in the country, especially from Britain.
699
2060945
2609
34:23
(Laughter)
700
2063578
1174
34:24
GC: I kind of like the British accent, OK?
701
2064776
2750
34:27
CA: I apologize. America, I am sorry.
702
2067550
2347
34:29
(Laughter)
703
2069921
1655
34:31
I'll go now.
704
2071600
1717
34:33
DB: But it became sort of impermissible to say that,
705
2073341
5924
34:39
because it was a sign that somehow you must be a bigot of some sort.
706
2079289
3445
34:42
So the political correctness was not only cracking down on speech
707
2082758
3951
34:46
that we would all find completely offensive,
708
2086733
2223
34:48
it was cracking down on some speech that was legitimate,
709
2088980
2782
34:51
and then it was turning speech and thought into action
710
2091786
4548
34:56
and treating it as a crime,
711
2096358
2060
34:58
and people getting fired and people thrown out of schools,
712
2098442
2920
35:01
and there were speech codes written.
713
2101386
1742
35:03
Now there are these diversity teams,
714
2103152
1794
35:04
where if you say something that somebody finds offensive,
715
2104970
2680
35:07
like, "Smoking is really dangerous," you can say "You're insulting my group,"
716
2107674
3696
35:11
and the team from the administration will come down into your dorm room
717
2111394
3538
35:14
and put thought police upon you.
718
2114956
2541
35:17
And so there has been a genuine narrowing of what is permissible to say.
719
2117521
5189
35:22
And some of it is legitimate.
720
2122734
1868
35:24
There are certain words that there should be some social sanction against,
721
2124626
5363
35:30
but some of it was used to enforce a political agenda.
722
2130013
2974
35:33
CA: So is that a project
723
2133011
1213
35:34
you would urge on liberals, if you like -- progressives --
724
2134248
2980
35:37
to rethink the ground rules around political correctness
725
2137252
4917
35:42
and accept a little more uncomfortable language
726
2142193
5695
35:47
in certain circumstances?
727
2147912
2834
35:50
Can you see that being solved
728
2150770
1734
35:52
to an extent that others won't be so offended?
729
2152528
4203
35:56
DB: I mean, most American universities, especially elite universities,
730
2156755
3324
36:00
are overwhelmingly on the left,
731
2160103
1533
36:01
and there's just an ease of temptation
732
2161660
1862
36:03
to use your overwhelming cultural power to try to enforce some sort of thought
733
2163546
4193
36:07
that you think is right and correct thought.
734
2167763
2289
36:10
So, be a little more self-suspicious of, are we doing that?
735
2170076
3203
36:13
And second, my university, the University of Chicago,
736
2173303
3476
36:16
sent out this letter saying, we will have no safe spaces.
737
2176803
2730
36:19
There will be no critique of micro-aggression.
738
2179557
2410
36:21
If you get your feelings hurt, well, welcome to the world of education.
739
2181991
3461
36:25
I do think that policy --
740
2185476
1414
36:26
which is being embraced by a lot of people on the left, by the way --
741
2186914
3334
36:30
is just a corrective to what's happened.
742
2190272
2166
36:32
CA: So here's a question from Karen Holloway:
743
2192462
2109
36:34
How do we foster an American culture
744
2194595
2330
36:36
that's forward-looking, like Hamilton,
745
2196949
2524
36:39
that expects and deals with change,
746
2199497
2528
36:42
rather than wanting to have everything go back to some fictional past?
747
2202049
3684
36:46
That's an easy question, right?
748
2206924
1578
36:48
GC: Well, I'm still a believer in the American dream,
749
2208526
2591
36:51
and I think what we can teach our children is the basics,
750
2211141
3434
36:54
which is that hard work
751
2214599
3397
36:58
and believing in yourself
752
2218020
2510
37:01
in America, you can achieve whatever you want.
753
2221417
2220
37:03
I was told that every single day.
754
2223661
1661
37:05
When I got in the real world, I was like, wow, that's maybe not always so true.
755
2225346
4031
37:09
But I still believe in that.
756
2229401
1671
37:11
Maybe I'm being too optimistic.
757
2231096
1573
37:12
So I still look towards the future for that to continue.
758
2232693
3711
37:16
DB: I think you're being too optimistic.
759
2236928
2162
37:19
GC: You do?
760
2239114
1158
37:20
DB: The odds of an American young person exceeding their parents' salary --
761
2240296
4032
37:24
a generation ago, like 86 percent did it.
762
2244352
2537
37:26
Now 51 percent do it.
763
2246913
1759
37:28
There's just been a problem in social mobility in the country.
764
2248696
3268
37:31
CA: You've written that this entire century has basically been a disaster,
765
2251988
4829
37:36
that the age of sunny growth is over and we're in deep trouble.
766
2256841
5633
37:42
DB: Yeah, I mean, we averaged, in real terms, population-adjusted,
767
2262498
4459
37:46
two or three percent growth for 50 years,
768
2266981
2120
37:49
and now we've had less than one percent growth.
769
2269125
2544
37:51
And so there's something seeping out.
770
2271693
2499
37:54
And so if I'm going to tell people that they should take risks,
771
2274216
4573
37:58
one of the things we're seeing is a rapid decline in mobility,
772
2278813
3047
38:01
the number of people who are moving across state lines,
773
2281884
3369
38:05
and that's especially true among millennials.
774
2285277
3015
38:08
It's young people that are moving less.
775
2288316
1890
38:10
So how do we give people the security from which they can take risk?
776
2290230
3901
38:14
And I'm a big believer in attachment theory of raising children,
777
2294155
3582
38:17
and attachment theory is based on the motto
778
2297761
2584
38:20
that all of life is a series of daring adventures from a secure base.
779
2300369
4422
38:25
Have you parents given you a secure base?
780
2305399
2373
38:27
And as a society, we do not have a secure base,
781
2307796
2373
38:30
and we won't get to that "Hamilton," risk-taking, energetic ethos
782
2310193
4388
38:34
until we can supply a secure base.
783
2314605
2457
38:37
CA: So I wonder whether there's ground here
784
2317086
3399
38:40
to create almost like a shared agenda, a bridging conversation,
785
2320509
4757
38:45
on the one hand recognizing that there is this really deep problem
786
2325290
5346
38:50
that the system, the economic system that we built,
787
2330660
2505
38:53
seems to be misfiring right now.
788
2333189
2920
38:57
Second, that maybe, if you're right that it's not all about immigrants,
789
2337064
5370
39:02
it's probably more about technology,
790
2342458
1958
39:04
if you could win that argument,
791
2344440
2024
39:06
that de-emphasizes what seems to me the single most divisive territory
792
2346488
5169
39:11
between Trump supporters and others, which is around the role of the other.
793
2351681
4054
39:15
It's very offensive to people on the left to have the other demonized
794
2355759
4050
39:19
to the extent that the other seems to be demonized.
795
2359833
2705
39:22
That feels deeply immoral,
796
2362562
2578
39:25
and maybe people on the left could agree, as you said,
797
2365164
2870
39:28
that immigration may have happened too fast,
798
2368058
2861
39:30
and there is a limit beyond which human societies struggle,
799
2370943
4577
39:35
but nonetheless this whole problem becomes de-emphasized
800
2375544
4089
39:39
if automation is the key issue,
801
2379657
2135
39:41
and then we try to work together on recognizing that it's real,
802
2381816
2954
39:44
recognizing that the problem probably wasn't properly addressed
803
2384794
3129
39:47
or seen or heard,
804
2387947
1346
39:49
and try to figure out how to rebuild communities
805
2389317
3309
39:52
using, well, using what?
806
2392650
2008
39:54
That seems to me to become the fertile conversation of the future:
807
2394682
4036
39:58
How do we rebuild communities in this modern age,
808
2398742
3120
40:01
with technology doing what it's doing,
809
2401886
2332
40:04
and reimagine this bright future?
810
2404242
2195
40:06
GC: That's why I go back to optimism.
811
2406461
2103
40:08
I'm not being ... it's not like I'm not looking at the facts,
812
2408588
3875
40:12
where we've come or where we've come from.
813
2412487
2438
40:14
But for gosh sakes, if we don't look at it from an optimistic point of view --
814
2414949
3987
40:18
I'm refusing to do that just yet.
815
2418960
1704
40:20
I'm not raising my 12- and 13-year-old to say, "Look, the world is dim."
816
2420688
4214
40:24
CA; We're going to have one more question from the room here.
817
2424926
2996
40:27
Questioner: Hi. Hello. Sorry.
818
2427946
3666
40:31
You both mentioned the infrastructure plan and Russia
819
2431636
3504
40:35
and some other things that wouldn't be traditional Republican priorities.
820
2435164
5365
40:40
What do you think, or when, will Republicans be motivated
821
2440553
6569
40:47
to take a stand against Trumpism?
822
2447146
3985
40:51
GC: After last night, not for a while.
823
2451559
2923
40:54
He changed a lot last night, I believe.
824
2454506
2350
40:56
DB: His popularity among Republicans -- he's got 85 percent approval,
825
2456880
3651
41:00
which is higher than Reagan had at this time,
826
2460555
2220
41:02
and that's because society has just gotten more polarized.
827
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2916
41:05
So people follow the party much more than they used to.
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So if you're waiting for Paul Ryan and the Republicans in Congress
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to flake away,
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it's going to take a little while.
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GC: But also because they're all concerned about reelection,
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and Trump has so much power with getting people either for you
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or against you,
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and so, they're vacillating every day, probably:
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"Well, should I go against or should I not?"
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But last night, where he finally sounded presidential,
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I think most Republicans are breathing a sigh of relief today.
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DB: The half-life of that is short.
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GC: Right -- I was just going to say, until Twitter happens again.
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CA: OK, I want to give each of you the chance
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to imagine you're speaking to -- I don't know --
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the people online who are watching this,
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who may be Trump supporters,
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who may be on the left, somewhere in the middle.
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How would you advise them to bridge or to relate to other people?
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Can you share any final wisdom on this?
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Or if you think that they shouldn't, tell them that as well.
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GC: I would just start by saying
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that I really think any change and coming together starts from the top,
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just like any other organization.
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And I would love if, somehow,
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Trump supporters or people on the left could encourage their leaders
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to show that compassion from the top,
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because imagine the change that we could have
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if Donald Trump tweeted out today,
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to all of his supporters,
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"Let's not be vile anymore to each other.
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Let's have more understanding.
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As a leader, I'm going to be more inclusive
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to all of the people of America."
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To me, it starts at the top.
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Is he going to do that? I have no idea.
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But I think that everything starts from the top,
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and the power that he has
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in encouraging his supporters
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to have an understanding of where people are coming from on the other side.
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CA: David. DB: Yeah, I guess I would say
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I don't think we can teach each other to be civil,
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and give us sermons on civility.
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That's not going to do it.
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It's substance and how we act,
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and the nice thing about Donald Trump is he smashed our categories.
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All the categories that we thought we were thinking in, they're obsolete.
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They were great for the 20th century. They're not good for today.
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He's got an agenda which is about closing borders and closing trade.
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I just don't think it's going to work.
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I think if we want to rebuild communities, recreate jobs,
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we need a different set of agenda
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that smashes through all our current divisions and our current categories.
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For me, that agenda is Reaganism on macroeconomic policy,
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Sweden on welfare policy
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and cuts across right and left.
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I think we have to have a dynamic economy that creates growth.
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That's the Reagan on economic policy.
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But people have to have that secure base.
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1965
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There have to be nurse-family partnerships;
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43:55
there has to be universal preschool;
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there have to be charter schools;
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1995
43:59
there have to be college programs with wraparound programs
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for parents and communities.
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44:03
We need to help heal the crisis of social solidarity in this country
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and help heal families,
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and government just has to get a lot more involved
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in the way liberals like to rebuild communities.
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At the other hand, we have to have an economy that's free and open
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the way conservatives used to like.
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And so getting the substance right is how you smash through
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the partisan identities,
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because the substance is what ultimately shapes our polarization.
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CA: David and Gretchen, thank you so much
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for an absolutely fascinating conversation.
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Thank you. That was really, really interesting.
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(Applause)
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Hey, let's keep the conversation going.
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We're continuing to try and figure out
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whether we can add something here,
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so keep the conversation going on Facebook.
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Give us your thoughts from whatever part of the political spectrum you're on,
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and actually, wherever in the world you are.
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This is not just about America. It's about the world, too.
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But we're not going to end today without music,
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because if we put music in every political conversation,
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the world would be completely different, frankly.
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It just would.
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(Applause)
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Up in Harlem, this extraordinary woman,
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Vy Higginsen, who's actually right here --
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let's get a shot of her.
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(Applause)
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She created this program that brings teens together,
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teaches them the joy and the impact of gospel music,
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and hundreds of teens have gone through this program.
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It's transformative for them.
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The music they made, as you already heard,
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is extraordinary,
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and I can't think of a better way of ending this TED Dialogue
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than welcoming Vy Higginsen's Gospel Choir from Harlem.
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Thank you.
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(Applause)
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(Singing) Choir: O beautiful for spacious skies
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For amber waves of grain
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For purple mountain majesties
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Above the fruited plain
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America!
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America!
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America!
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America!
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God shed his grace on thee
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And crown thy good with brotherhood
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From sea to shining sea
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From sea to shining sea
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(Applause)
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About this website

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