Naomi Shimada: Tips for reclaiming your peace of mind online | TED

翻译人员: Shengmin Huang 校对人员: Helen Chang

Cloe Shasha Brooks: Hello, welcome.

克洛·莎莎·布鲁克斯： 大家好，欢迎。

You are watching a TED interview series

您正收看的是 TED 访谈系列

called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings.

《如何调节复杂情绪》。

I’m Cloe Shasha Brooks, your host and a curator at TED.

我是主持人兼 TED 负责人 克洛·莎莎·布鲁克斯。

And today we'll be focusing specifically on anxiety.

今天我们重点关注于焦虑问题。

So first I'll be speaking with author and model Naomi Shimada

首先我将对话作家兼模特： 岛田直美，

about the anxiety associated with social media.

讨论与社交媒体相关的焦虑问题。

She coauthored a book called “Mixed Feelings:

她与人合著了

《五味杂陈：探索数字化习性 带给我们的情绪冲击》。

Exploring the emotional impact of our digital habits."

It's all about how the internet has created a new layer

全书探讨了互联网是如何 从完美主义这个新层面

of perfectionist pressure on our lives

给我们的生活施压，

and how we can better manage our relationship with our online worlds.

而我们又该如何才能更好地 与网络世界相处。

Hello, Naomi. Great to see you.

你好，直美。幸会幸会。

Naomi Shimada: Hello, Cloe, great to see you, too.

岛田直美：你好，克洛， 同样幸会。

I'm honored to be here.

荣幸受邀。

CSB: Oh, well, thanks for joining us.

克洛：好的，感谢应邀。

So, Naomi, you have written and spoken

直美，你曾登过文也发过声

about the relationship between social media and anxiety a whole bunch,

尽述社交媒体 与焦虑问题之间的关系，

such as the anxiety to post online or not to post.

例如在决定是否发帖时的焦虑。

So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

对此你能不能更深入地聊一聊？

NS: So I always want to start by saying, even though I have written about it,

直美：我一直希望能申明， 即便我写过相关方面的书籍，

I still don't really feel like an expert because this is just --

我仍不觉得自己是个专家 因为这实在是──

I always want to decenter my voice as an expert

我一直想让自己的 语气有别于专家，

because I'm just feeling this out like everyone else.

因为我和大家一样 只是在试探自己的感受。

But in my experience,

但鉴于我本人的经验，

social media and anxiety are connected,

社交媒体与焦虑问题是相通的，

you know, or social media exacerbates anxious feelings.

或者说，社交媒体 会加剧焦虑感。

It exacerbates the human condition.

使人的状况恶化。

And so things that we may have insecurities and anxieties around,

于是我们就可能会让自己 置身于焦虑与不安之中，

like, you know, our relationships, our bodies, our work,

比如，我们的情感关系， 我们的体型，我们的工作，

the things that make up our sense of self,

这些构成我们自我意识的事物，

I think the anxiety we feel

我认为我们感受到的焦虑

or we can feel when we use social media can sometimes act as a marker

或者说在我们使用社交媒体时 感受到的焦虑有时也是一种标杆

for things that show us where we need to do work

用来衡量我们 何时应该工作

or where we feel insecure.

何时感到不安。

And sometimes it's just a message being reflected back to us.

有时这不过是反映 我们自身问题的信息。

And also, like I said, social media exacerbates the human condition.

同时，我说过，社交媒体 会使人的状况恶化。

You know, as humans,

要知道，作为人类

I think we so often just want to be loved and cared for and seen and adored

我认为我们过多的渴求他人的 喜爱、关注、视线、崇拜、

or just acknowledged.

或者仅仅只是认同。

So social media has also become, you know, our main mode of communication,

于是社交媒体也成为了 我们沟通和工作方式的

our method of work.

主要模式。

Some of those things, those lines can start to become very blurred.

它们中的一些界线 都开始变得模糊了。

CSB: Absolutely.

克洛：诚然。

Yeah, and in addition to making lives look shiny and perfect,

在把生活包装得光鲜亮丽之余，

social media also seems to fuel a lot of FOMO, or fear of missing out.

社交媒体似乎也大大加剧了 “FOMO”现象，也就是错失恐惧症。

And I'm curious what you'd suggest for people who experience

我很好奇你要如何谏言于

a lot of anxiety from seeing videos and images

那些在看了他人享乐的照片与视频后

of other people having a ton of fun and,

会产生大量焦虑的人，

you know, not knowing how to deal with that.

那些不知该如何调节自己情绪的人。

NS: I think, like I said slightly earlier,

直美：正如我稍早前所说，

the feelings of anxiety when they come up,

当焦虑的情绪来袭，

like, what is that message, you know,

这说明了什么，

taking that step back and being, like, why do I feel this way?

往后退一步，想想为什么 我会有这样的感受？

Why is this making me feel like this?

为什么这件事会令我作此感受？

And kind of reading into it.

试着去看透这种感受。

And in my personal experience,

从我个人经验来看，

the thing that works for me

对我管用的办法

is just taking a step back, taking a moment,

就是退一步，缓一缓，

you know, if something is making me feel bad,

如果有什么东西令我难受，

for example, if social media --

比方说，如果社交媒体──

if we thought of it as a substance, for example,

假如我们能把 社交媒体当作一个物件，

if something was making you feel bad, what would you do about it?

如果某个物件令你难受， 你会做什么？

Would you stop using it?

你会不再使用这个物件吗？

You know, I think there's levels to this because sometimes, you know,

我觉得这事 往往得分层级而定，

we may have work now that is so intertwined with social media

现在有些工作与社交媒体 有着千丝万缕的连系

and it can't just be like, oh, stop using it.

无法说断就断，说停就停。

And I know that there's a spectrum.

我知道有这么一套层级体系。

And I'm also navigating this constantly myself

作为一名公众人物

when as a public-facing person,

我本人也在不断地探索，

my job is so intertwined with social media

我的工作就与社交媒体纠缠不清，

and it's something I want to do less and less.

而我希望的就是能将其能简化。

So I'm navigating that kind of boundary for me all the time.

所以我无时无刻 不在为自己探索着边界。

So it's just negotiating,

这就是一种交涉，

sometimes it's not as clear cut, you know,

有时确实做不到一刀两断，

it may for you start as take the weekends off, or you know,

但也许可以从 过个清静的周末开始，

I actually personally most of the time don't have social media on my phone.

实际上我本人大部分时间 都不会用手机上社交媒体。

And just when I have to do something for work,

只有在工作必要时，

that's when I interact with it,

我才会使用社交媒体，

especially this year that's been so heavy, you know,

尤其今年是如此沉重的一年，

and where there is no "off" button

事事无法叫停，

and every new day bringing such bad news,

每天都会看到坏消息，

like, I'm a very sensitive person,

我是个非常敏感的人，

so I have to do the things I know that I need to take care of myself,

所以我必须用自己所知的 有效的方式照顾自己，

which is not scroll.

那就是不要划手机。

Also, I've had an injury in my hand,

而且，我的手受过伤，

which means I can't actually scroll,

所以我也没法划手机，

so I'm like, "This is a sign!

于是我就想： “这是一个征兆！

I'm just not supposed to be interacting like that right now."

此时此刻的我就不该划手机。”

So just listening and knowing

所以我听之任之

that you don't have to fall under the pressure.

让自己不再受其压力所扰。

Like, I think so often we think that if we don't post,

我觉得大家过份地认为 如果自己不发帖，

we don't exist.

自己就不存在了。

Our existence, you know --

我们的存在，就像──

we only exist when other people see us existing.

只有在别人看到我们时， 我们才算存在。

Like, that, that whole line, like,

就像那句话，

"Oh, if you didn't post about it, it didn't happen."

“如果你不发帖， 事情就没有发生。”

That concept.

这样的概念。

We've started to internalize, you know,

我们已经开始将其内化，

especially my generation of millennials, gen-Z,

尤其是我们这代人， 千禧一代，或者 Z 世代，

like, if you didn't post it, it didn't happen.

如果不发帖， 就当事情就没有发生。

And so it's just like going back and being like, OK, is that true?

所以就得退一步，好好想想： 好吧，这是真的吗？

Why do I feel the need to share this?

为什么我需要发帖分享此事？

And asking those questions.

提出这类问题。

And that's what I do.

我就是这么做的。

So like I said, I'm not an expert,

所以就像我说的，我不是什么专家，

I too I'm working this out and every day feels totally different.

我也在试着去摸索， 每天都有不同的感受。

But asking those questions is a great place to start.

但提出这些问题就是个好的开始。

CSB: Thank you for that.

克洛：谢谢。

So we have a question from the audience.

我们有一个来自观众的提问。

Let's bring that up.

我们开始吧。

OK, so related to this, from Facebook,

来自 Facebook 的相关问题：

"What question should we be asking ourselves

“在我们发帖到社交媒体之前，

before we post on social media?"

我们应该先问自己什么问题呢？”

NS: So I like to ask myself, like, why do I want to share this right now?

直美：我会问自己，我现在 为什么会想要发帖分享此事？

Is this something --

会不会是──

as a person that has grown up on the internet, on social media,

作为一个成长于 互联网与社交媒体的人，

so often how I validated myself and my sense of self

将发帖和待人回帖

was posting something and people reacting to it.

过份地看作是验证 自我和自我意识的方式。

And I think that's just very murky territory.

我觉得这是一个阴暗的领域。

I think like, you know,

我认为

why do I feel the need to share this?

为什么我会有发帖分享此事的需求？

Is this something that feels also private to me?

这难道不也是我的私事吗？

You know, in my opinion, on whether,

在我看来，

and I guess, you know, I have not the biggest social media following,

我的社交媒体粉人数 虽然不是最多的，

but a social media following,

但也不算少了，

that sometimes, when I'm like, does that person, for me,

有时候，我会想， 他人的意愿，对我而言，

does my family member want to be shown online, for example,

比方说，我的家人 是否愿意被展示在网上，

like, or is this a private moment?

或者说，这算不算是私人时光？

I think navigating, like, do I feel not good about myself right now

我认为试探自己当下是否难过

and is posting a picture of myself looking, like, hot,

并贴出自己秀身材

or whatever the equivalent of looking really happy --

或是秀幸福的照片──

I think sometimes so often we post about the things that we are yearning for,

我认为我们往往会 贴出自己的渴求，

whether that's attention, love, craving.

不外乎关注、喜爱、执念。

And I think there's deeper underlying messages

而且我认为在发帖行为的背后

behind posting sometimes, you know,

有时还藏着更深层的含意，

and that it is a projection of the things that we want in our lives,

那就是我们在生活中 对渴望的事物的投影，

for example, posting photos of people you want better relationships with

例如，贴出你希望能 与之关系更进一步的人的照片

or, you know,

知道吗，

there's a big spectrum of experience.

许多人都有过这样的经验。

But for me, I just try to ask myself,

但对我而言，我只想问自己，

why do I feel the need to make this public right now?

为什么我会有将此事公之于众的需求？

Is this something that I am proud of?

此事会令我引以为豪吗？

And it's no critique.

这不是批评。

This is really questions that are just a gauge where I'm at

这些问题其实是用来衡量 应该如何给自己定位

or where someone else is at with it.

或者给他人定位。

Like, is this something that actually

这真的是

I just need to pay attention to in my own life privately,

我应该在私人时间里关注的事情吗？

of, like, this is something I should be working on or thinking about,

这件事应该由我来处理或考虑吗？

or there's just deeper questions about context,

还是说整件事具有更深层次的问题，

I think, that are important.

我认为，这些问题都很重要。

CSB: Yeah, yeah.

克洛：是的，是的。

And I think as we're now at our final question,

这是我们的最后一个问题，

which is something that I think is related to what you're saying

问题与你刚刚的话题相关

around when to post or not to post,

问到了何时发帖何时缄默，

but from a different angle, which is, you know,

但提问的角度有所不同：

a lot of people have anxiety about whether or not to post

许多人的焦虑在于

their social justice activism on their accounts

自已的社交媒体账号 是否发帖声援社会正义的活动，

and regardless of the activism they might be already doing

而社交媒体之外 却没有什么实际行动，

outside of social media, right?

对吧？

And some people just find it performative.

有些人认为这不过是装腔作势。

But at the same time, there was a fear of looking apathetic

但与此同时，人们会担心 如果在社交媒体上

if people are not posting about social justice on social media.

都不对社会正义发声， 就会显得自己很冷漠。

So how do you suggest people deal with that anxiety

那么你又会为这些人的焦虑问题

and think about that?

提出怎样的建议和想法呢？

NS: I mean, that's definitely an anxiety of our generation, right?

直美：这确实是我们这代人 才有的焦虑，不是吗？

Anxieties around posting about social justice.

面对社会正义发帖与否的焦虑。

I think the big question here is asking ourselves, like,

我认为这里主要的问题在于自省：

what am I doing in my own life?

我究竟在自己的生命中做了什么？

You know, and again, there is a spectrum,

知道吗，这同样有一套体系，

because there's a lot of people

因为许许多多人

who are sharing a lot of important information via social media.

都会在社交媒体上分享重要信息。

So you have, like, organizers and then everybody else.

所以会区分组织者 和所有其他角色。

But if you are --

但如果你是──

Once again, you know, I can't speak for everybody,

再次申明，我说的话 不能代表所有人，

but just I think it's --

但我是这么认为的──

I read this quote by an activist in Oregon,

我在俄勒冈州读到过 一位社会活动家说的话，

a lifetime organizer called Grace Lee Boggs,

她叫陈玉平，毕生 致力于组织社会活动，

and she said that, you know, that a lot of times in our lives

她说过，在我们的生命中

we don't prioritize the importance of self-reflection and revolution.

我们往往不会首先想到 自我反省和自我变革的重要性。

And I think, you know, we so care about optics.

我认为，我们太看重表象了。

We don't want people to think that we are racists, sizeist, sexist, etc.

我们不希望被他人视作种族、 体型、性别等方面的歧视者。

But to not create and redo this kind of harm in the world,

但为了不在世界上 制造和重复这类伤害，

we need to understand and really reflect

我们需要理解并真正反思

on these systems that we've all internalized to some effect.

这套我们都已内化到了一定程度的系统。

So to understand, like, where am I on the spectrum?

那么，想要了解自己处于 这个体系的什么位置？

How do I benefit?

自己会如何受益？

All of these things actually really take time and deep, you know,

这一切都得花时间，

深刻地自省，发力。

self-reflection and work.

And that kind of questioning, I think,

我想，能提出这样的问题

is something that I find it helpful to be offline

就会在网络之外的世界 对自己有所帮助的。

because I'm like, otherwise, I'm just listening

因为，另一方面， 我也只是在倾听，

to what everybody else is saying.

倾听大家都在说什么。

Like, are these my thoughts and my feelings

听听这些是否也是我的所思所感，

or am I just internalizing

还是说我只是内化了那些

what other people are just shouting into the atmosphere

被他人宣泄到全世界

and into the internet?

以及互联网上的言语？

I think, there's moments where obviously,

我认为，明显有好几次，

a lot the uprisings in June would not have happened

如果没人分享信息

if it wasn't for the information that was shared

那么六月里的许多 社会活动都不会发生，

and that action, of course, was so important.

而分享信息这一行为 当然是非常重要的。

But I think there's different phases, you know.

但我认为也要分阶段来讨论，

And when it's just about shame and optics,

如果都只是在讨论丑事和表象，

that's not how we change the world.

那就和我们改变世界的方式相左了。

For us to change the world,

我们要想改变世界，

we need to inhabit and act on these reflections.

就得深入反思并思而后行。

So I think there are again, more questions to ask ourselves, like,

所以又有了更多要留给 我们自己的问题：

do I just not want people to think that I do this?

我是否想让大家知道 事情是我做的吗？

And often we are in echo chamber of the people who follow us

我们往往是在自己的 关注者和被关注者中

and people we follow, right?

人云亦云罢了，不是吗？

So a lot of the times we're just sharing and shouting

所以许多时候， 我们只是在对着那些

into the atmosphere of people who have the same ideals as us.

和我们有着相同理念的人 进行分享和呐喊。

And that energy can be used in a different way.

而这股能量 会被引向不同的方向。

And also sometimes inhibits, I think, real harder conversations from happening,

而且，我觉得有时候还会 限制更沉重的话题，

because I think social media isn't often an intimate enough of a space

因为我认为社交媒体往往 算不上是什么亲密空间，

to be able to ask each other questions that we're afraid to ask.

不足以让我们相互提出 难以启齿的问题。

Or mistakes, it's not favorable to making mistakes anymore,

犯错，也成了不再提倡的事，

which is my critique and sadness about social media.

为此我对社交媒体 感到不忿与悲哀。

You know, our biggest fear is being called out for something.

知道吗，我们最大的恐惧就是 应为某件事情而被人点名。

But this call-out culture, sometimes, not always,

但这种点名文化， 有时侯，并非总是，

I understand its role and place in society,

我能理解它的社会作用和地位，

but sometimes doesn't allow for us

但它有时候让我们

to have more engaged conversations around these systems

无法围绕那些被我们内化的系统

that we've internalized.

展开更紧密的对话。

And we all make mistakes and we all have to learn

我们都会犯错， 都要在是教训中成长，

and sometimes it doesn't allow for that to happen.

而有时侯社交媒体 没给我们成长的机会。

CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

克洛：是的，是的。

Well, I think that's beautifully said

好的，我觉得说得很棒

and we've come to the end of our time here.

而且时间也差不多到了。

But I am so grateful to you for this conversation, Naomi,

很感激你能参与到 这次对话，直美，

and thank you for sharing all this.

谢谢你分享的一切。

I'll talk to you soon. Take care.

我们之后再聊。保重。

NS: Thank you, Cloe and everyone.

直美：谢谢克洛，谢谢大家。

Much love.

爱你们。