Naomi Shimada: Tips for reclaiming your peace of mind online | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Cloe Shasha Brooks: Hello, welcome.

克洛伊·莎夏·布魯克斯：哈囉，歡迎。

You are watching a TED interview series

您正在觀賞 TED 的訪談系列

called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings.

《如何處理不舒服的感受》。

I’m Cloe Shasha Brooks, your host and a curator at TED.

我是克洛伊莎夏布魯克斯， 今天的主持人以及 TED 的策展人。

And today we'll be focusing specifically on anxiety.

今天我們會把焦點 明確放在「焦慮」上。

So first I'll be speaking with author and model Naomi Shimada

首先我會和作家兼模特兒 島田直美（之後稱娜歐米或娜）談談

about the anxiety associated with social media.

與社群媒體相關的焦慮。

She coauthored a book called “Mixed Feelings:

她是《五味雜陳的感覺： 探究我們的數位習慣

Exploring the emotional impact of our digital habits."

對情緒會有什麼影響》 這本書的共同作者。

It's all about how the internet has created a new layer

這本書談的是網際網路 如何在我們的生活中

of perfectionist pressure on our lives

創造出新一層的完美主義壓力，

and how we can better manage our relationship with our online worlds.

以及我們要如何妥善處理 我們與網路世界的關係。

Hello, Naomi. Great to see you.

哈囉，娜歐米，很高興見到你。

Naomi Shimada: Hello, Cloe, great to see you, too.

島田直美（娜）：哈囉， 克洛伊，我也很高興見到你。

I'm honored to be here.

很榮幸能來這裡。

CSB: Oh, well, thanks for joining us.

克：謝謝你來參與。那麼，娜歐米，

So, Naomi, you have written and spoken

針對社群媒體和焦慮的關係，

about the relationship between social media and anxiety a whole bunch,

你寫過書也談過很多，

such as the anxiety to post online or not to post.

比如要在線上貼文或不貼文的焦慮。

So can you tell us a little bit more about that?

你可以跟我們談談這個主題嗎？

NS: So I always want to start by saying, even though I have written about it,

娜：我想先說一件事， 雖然我寫過相關書籍，

但我仍然不覺得自己 是專家，因為這只是——

I still don't really feel like an expert because this is just --

I always want to decenter my voice as an expert

我不希望大家著重我是專家在發聲，

because I'm just feeling this out like everyone else.

因為我和大家一樣 在試圖了解這個主題。

But in my experience,

但，根據我的經驗，

social media and anxiety are connected,

社群媒體和焦慮是相關的，

you know, or social media exacerbates anxious feelings.

或者說，社群媒體會加重焦慮感。

It exacerbates the human condition.

會讓人的病症惡化。

And so things that we may have insecurities and anxieties around,

所以，

我們可能會對一些事物 有不安全感，焦慮感，

like, you know, our relationships, our bodies, our work,

比如我們的關係、 我們的身體、我們的工作，

the things that make up our sense of self,

形成我們自我感覺的那些元素，

I think the anxiety we feel

我想，我們在使用社群媒體時

or we can feel when we use social media can sometimes act as a marker

所感受到或者可以感受到的焦慮，

有時有著標記的功能，

for things that show us where we need to do work

標記出來讓我們知道

哪裡我們需要再努力， 或者我們對什麼沒有安全感。

or where we feel insecure.

And sometimes it's just a message being reflected back to us.

有時，焦慮只是反饋給我們的訊息。

And also, like I said, social media exacerbates the human condition.

而且，如我方才所言， 社群媒體會讓人的病症惡化。

You know, as humans,

你知道的，身為人，

I think we so often just want to be loved and cared for and seen and adored

我想，我們通常都想要 被愛、被關心、

被看見、被喜愛，或單純被認可。

or just acknowledged.

So social media has also become, you know, our main mode of communication,

社群媒體也變成了

我們主要的溝通模式，

our method of work.

我們的工作方式。

Some of those things, those lines can start to become very blurred.

這當中的分界線可能會變得很模糊。

CSB: Absolutely.

克：的確。

Yeah, and in addition to making lives look shiny and perfect,

社群媒體除了讓大家的生活 看起來很會放閃、很完美，

social media also seems to fuel a lot of FOMO, or fear of missing out.

它似乎也促成了怕被遺漏的恐懼。

And I'm curious what you'd suggest for people who experience

有人看到別人很快樂的影片 和照片就會非常焦慮，

a lot of anxiety from seeing videos and images

我很好奇，你會提供 什麼建議給這些人。

of other people having a ton of fun and,

you know, not knowing how to deal with that.

他們不知道怎麼處理那種焦慮。

NS: I think, like I said slightly earlier,

娜：我想，就像我剛才說的，

the feelings of anxiety when they come up,

當焦慮感出現時，

like, what is that message, you know,

它帶來的訊息是什麼？

taking that step back and being, like, why do I feel this way?

以這種方式退一步，問：

我為什麼會有這種感覺？

Why is this making me feel like this?

這件事為什麼會讓我有這種感覺？

And kind of reading into it.

並試著去深究它。

And in my personal experience,

根據我個人經驗，對我有效的方式

the thing that works for me

is just taking a step back, taking a moment,

就是退一步，稍微停一下，

you know, if something is making me feel bad,

如果某樣東西讓我感覺很糟，

for example, if social media --

比如，如果社群媒體——

if we thought of it as a substance, for example,

如果我們把它視為實體的，比如，

if something was making you feel bad, what would you do about it?

如果某樣東西讓你感覺 很糟，你會怎麼處理？

Would you stop using it?

你會停止使用它嗎？

You know, I think there's levels to this because sometimes, you know,

我想這是有程度之分的，因為，

有時，

we may have work now that is so intertwined with social media

現在有許多工作 和社群媒體結合在一起，

and it can't just be like, oh, stop using it.

不太可能直接停止使用它。

And I know that there's a spectrum.

我知道這是個光譜。

And I'm also navigating this constantly myself

我自己也經常在處理這樣的問題，

when as a public-facing person,

身為公眾人物，

my job is so intertwined with social media

我的工作和社群媒體緊緊綁在一起，

and it's something I want to do less and less.

我希望能漸漸脫離。

So I'm navigating that kind of boundary for me all the time.

我自己時時刻刻都要 處理那樣的界線。

So it's just negotiating,

所以就必須要協商，

sometimes it's not as clear cut, you know,

界線有時不見得那麼明確，

it may for you start as take the weekends off, or you know,

也許一開始是讓自己 週末放假不要做，

事實上通常我沒在 個人手機上用社群媒體。

I actually personally most of the time don't have social media on my phone.

And just when I have to do something for work,

只有必須處理工作時才和它互動。

that's when I interact with it,

especially this year that's been so heavy, you know,

今年是特別沉重的一年，

and where there is no "off" button

又沒有「關閉」按鈕可按，

and every new day bringing such bad news,

每一天都有新的壞消息，

like, I'm a very sensitive person,

而我是個很敏感的人，

so I have to do the things I know that I need to take care of myself,

我知道若想把自己照顧， 我得要做些什麼，

which is not scroll.

而滑手機不包含在內。

Also, I've had an injury in my hand,

此外，我的手受傷了，

which means I can't actually scroll,

那就表示我其實無法滑手機，

so I'm like, "This is a sign!

我說：「這一定是天意！

I'm just not supposed to be interacting like that right now."

我現在就不應該像那樣子互動。」

So just listening and knowing

所以，就傾聽，且心裡知道

that you don't have to fall under the pressure.

你不需要被壓力給壓倒。

Like, I think so often we think that if we don't post,

我認為，我們常常會覺得， 如果不貼文，我們就不存在了。

we don't exist.

Our existence, you know --

我們的存在，你知道的——

we only exist when other people see us existing.

只有別人能看見我們的存在時 我們才算是存在。就好像是說：

Like, that, that whole line, like,

"Oh, if you didn't post about it, it didn't happen."

「喔，如果沒有為那件事貼文， 它就等於沒發生。」

That concept.

那種概念。

我們已經開始把它內化，

We've started to internalize, you know,

especially my generation of millennials, gen-Z,

特別是我所屬的千禧世代，Z 世代，

like, if you didn't post it, it didn't happen.

沒有貼文就等於沒發生。

And so it's just like going back and being like, OK, is that true?

所以，應該要回頭想想， 真的是這樣嗎？

Why do I feel the need to share this?

我為什麼會覺得我必須要分享這個？

And asking those questions.

並要去問那些問題。

And that's what I do.

那就是我的做法。

So like I said, I'm not an expert,

如我剛才所言，我不是專家，

I too I'm working this out and every day feels totally different.

我也在努力解決它， 且每天感覺起來都完全不一樣。

But asking those questions is a great place to start.

但去問那些問題， 是個很好的起始點。

CSB: Thank you for that.

克：謝謝你分享這些。 咱們來看一個來自觀眾的問題。

So we have a question from the audience.

Let's bring that up.

OK, so related to this, from Facebook,

也和這個主題相關，來自臉書：

"What question should we be asking ourselves

「我們在社群媒體上貼文之前

before we post on social media?"

應該要問自己什麼問題？」

NS: So I like to ask myself, like, why do I want to share this right now?

娜：我通常會問我自己， 我現在為什麼會想在分享這個？

Is this something --

這內容是不是——

as a person that has grown up on the internet, on social media,

身為在網際網路上、 社群媒體上長大的人，

so often how I validated myself and my sense of self

我通常認可自己的方式、

我的自我感覺，就是貼文， 以及大家對貼文做出反應。

was posting something and people reacting to it.

And I think that's just very murky territory.

我想，那是塊非常陰鬱的地方。

I think like, you know,

我會想，

why do I feel the need to share this?

我為什麼會覺得必須分享這內容？

Is this something that feels also private to me?

我會不會覺得這內容是我私人的事？

You know, in my opinion, on whether,

你知道的，依我所見，

and I guess, you know, I have not the biggest social media following,

我的社群媒體追蹤者還不算最多的，

but a social media following,

但，社群媒體的追蹤，

that sometimes, when I'm like, does that person, for me,

有時，我會想，這個人，對我來說，

does my family member want to be shown online, for example,

比如，我的家人會想要 被放在網路上給大家看嗎？

like, or is this a private moment?

這一刻是不是我們私人的時刻？

I think navigating, like, do I feel not good about myself right now

我想，可以想想，

我現在是否對自己的感覺不太好，

and is posting a picture of myself looking, like, hot,

貼一張我自己的照片， 且我在照片中看起來很辣，

or whatever the equivalent of looking really happy --

或類似的概念，只是 是看起來很開心——

I think sometimes so often we post about the things that we are yearning for,

我想，通常我們張貼的內容

就是我們的渴望，

whether that's attention, love, craving.

也許是注意力、愛、熱望。

And I think there's deeper underlying messages

我想，

在張貼的內容背後， 有時有著更深的意涵，

behind posting sometimes, you know,

and that it is a projection of the things that we want in our lives,

這些內容投射出我們 在人生中想要得到什麼，

for example, posting photos of people you want better relationships with

比如，你想要改善和誰的關係， 可能就會張貼他的照片，

or, you know,

或者，有各式各樣的狀況。

there's a big spectrum of experience.

But for me, I just try to ask myself,

但，對我來說，我就只是問自己，

why do I feel the need to make this public right now?

為什麼我現在必須要把它公開？

Is this something that I am proud of?

這是我覺得驕傲的事嗎？ 這不是評論。

And it's no critique.

This is really questions that are just a gauge where I'm at

這些問題只是一種

對我或對別人的評估標準。

or where someone else is at with it.

Like, is this something that actually

在我的人生中，

I just need to pay attention to in my own life privately,

我是不是私底下該多留意這些，

對此，我是不是該 多做點什麼或多想想，

of, like, this is something I should be working on or thinking about,

or there's just deeper questions about context,

或者，有些關於情境 且更深的問題是很重要的。

I think, that are important.

CSB: Yeah, yeah.

克：是的，是的。現在 我們來到最後一個問題，

And I think as we're now at our final question,

which is something that I think is related to what you're saying

我認為這個問題和你所談的有關，

around when to post or not to post,

關於何時要貼文或不要貼文的問題， 但從角度不同來看，就是：

but from a different angle, which is, you know,

a lot of people have anxiety about whether or not to post

許多人會很焦慮要不要 用他們的帳戶來張貼

their social justice activism on their accounts

關於社會正義活動主義的內容，

and regardless of the activism they might be already doing

不管他們在社群媒體之外 是否已經在進行活動主義。

outside of social media, right?

And some people just find it performative.

有些人覺得這麼做是表演性質。

But at the same time, there was a fear of looking apathetic

但同時，又會害怕 如果不在社群媒體上

if people are not posting about social justice on social media.

發佈關於社會正義的內容， 就會顯得冷淡。

So how do you suggest people deal with that anxiety

你會建議大家如何處理 那樣的焦慮？該怎麼想？

and think about that?

NS: I mean, that's definitely an anxiety of our generation, right?

娜：那絕對是我們 這個世代會有的焦慮。

Anxieties around posting about social justice.

對於發佈社會正義相關內容的焦慮。

I think the big question here is asking ourselves, like,

對此，我認為我們應該 問自己的大哉問是：

what am I doing in my own life?

在我自己的人生中，我在做什麼？

You know, and again, there is a spectrum,

同樣的，這也是個光譜，

because there's a lot of people

因為有很多人

who are sharing a lot of important information via social media.

透過社群媒體分享很多重要資訊。

So you have, like, organizers and then everybody else.

會有組織幹部，以及所有其他人。

But if you are --

但，如果你是——

Once again, you know, I can't speak for everybody,

再說一次，我的意見 無法代表所有人，

but just I think it's --

但，我認為——

I read this quote by an activist in Oregon,

我曾經讀到奧勒崗州 某位活動主義者的話，

a lifetime organizer called Grace Lee Boggs,

她叫葛雷絲李柏格斯， 一生都在組織活動，

and she said that, you know, that a lot of times in our lives

她說，在我們的人生中有很多時候，

we don't prioritize the importance of self-reflection and revolution.

我們不會把自我反思 和變革的重要性看得很高。

And I think, you know, we so care about optics.

我認為，我們好在乎大眾的觀感。

We don't want people to think that we are racists, sizeist, sexist, etc.

我們不希望別人認為我們有 種族歧視、身材歧視、性別歧視。

But to not create and redo this kind of harm in the world,

但若要避免在世界上

創造和重蹈這類傷害，

we need to understand and really reflect

我們就必須要了解和真正去反思

on these systems that we've all internalized to some effect.

這些可說是被我們 所有人內化的體制。

So to understand, like, where am I on the spectrum?

所以，要了解我在光譜上的位置 在哪裡？我能如何獲益？

How do I benefit?

All of these things actually really take time and deep, you know,

上述這些其實都需要花時間，

self-reflection and work.

需要深刻自我反思及投入。

And that kind of questioning, I think,

且那種問問題的方式，我認為，

is something that I find it helpful to be offline

在「線下」做會很有幫助，

because I'm like, otherwise, I'm just listening

因為，若在線上做的話， 我就只是一直在聽其他人說什麼。

to what everybody else is saying.

Like, are these my thoughts and my feelings

這些到底是我的想法與感覺，

or am I just internalizing

或者我只是在內化

what other people are just shouting into the atmosphere

其他人對著空氣、對著網路 大聲疾呼的內容？

and into the internet?

我想，有些時刻，很明顯，

I think, there's moments where obviously,

a lot the uprisings in June would not have happened

六月有許多起義，之所以 會發生就是因為資訊分享，

if it wasn't for the information that was shared

當然，這個動作是相當重要的。

and that action, of course, was so important.

But I think there's different phases, you know.

但，我認為，有不同的階段。

And when it's just about shame and optics,

如果只想著羞恥和大眾的觀感，

that's not how we change the world.

那不是我們改變世界的方式。

For us to change the world,

若我們要改變世界，我們就必須要

we need to inhabit and act on these reflections.

思索並根據這些反思來行動。

So I think there are again, more questions to ask ourselves, like,

所以，我想，

有更多我們 需要問自己的問題，比如，

do I just not want people to think that I do this?

我是不是只是不希望 別人認為我做了這件事？

And often we are in echo chamber of the people who follow us

且，通常，我們追蹤的人

以及追蹤我們的人 通常都是同溫層的人。

and people we follow, right?

So a lot of the times we're just sharing and shouting

所以，大部分的時候， 我們分享以及大聲疾呼的對象

into the atmosphere of people who have the same ideals as us.

都和我們有相同的理念。

And that energy can be used in a different way.

那些能量可能會被做其他用途。

And also sometimes inhibits, I think, real harder conversations from happening,

有時，我想，會讓 很困難的對話無法進行，

because I think social media isn't often an intimate enough of a space

因為社群媒體通常 不是一個夠親密的空間，

to be able to ask each other questions that we're afraid to ask.

無法向彼此問出我們不敢問的問題。

Or mistakes, it's not favorable to making mistakes anymore,

或者錯誤，犯錯不再討喜了，

which is my critique and sadness about social media.

這是我對社群媒體的批評， 也是覺得悲哀之處。

You know, our biggest fear is being called out for something.

我們最大的恐懼就是 因為某種原因被指責。

But this call-out culture, sometimes, not always,

但這種指責文化，有時，

I understand its role and place in society,

不見得一定，我能了解 它在社會上的角色和地位，

but sometimes doesn't allow for us

但有時，不讓我們

to have more engaged conversations around these systems

進行更深入的談話，

去談關於已經被我們內化的體制。

that we've internalized.

And we all make mistakes and we all have to learn

我們都會犯錯，我們也都需要學習，

and sometimes it doesn't allow for that to happen.

但有時，這種文化卻不允許這些。

CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

克：是的，是的。

Well, I think that's beautifully said

我覺得你說得很棒，

and we've come to the end of our time here.

我們的時間也差不多了。

But I am so grateful to you for this conversation, Naomi,

不過，娜歐米， 很感謝你來參與談話，

and thank you for sharing all this.

也謝謝你分享這麼多。

I'll talk to you soon. Take care.

再會。請保重。

NS: Thank you, Cloe and everyone.

娜：也謝謝克洛伊以及大家。

Much love.

祝福一切安好。