How Twitter needs to change | Jack Dorsey

翻译人员: Buyun Ping 校对人员: Tianji (Homer) Li

Chris Anderson: What worries you right now?

克里斯·安德森： 你现在担心什么？

You've been very open about lots of issues on Twitter.

一直以来你都敞开探讨 推特上的问题。

What would be your top worry

对于现在的情况，

about where things are right now?

你最担心的是什么？

Jack Dorsey: Right now, the health of the conversation.

杰克·多西： 现在我最担心的是谈话的质量。

So, our purpose is to serve the public conversation,

我们的目标是促进大众交流，

and we have seen a number of attacks on it.

但我们已经在上面看到了 很多攻击性言论。

We've seen abuse, we've seen harassment,

我们看到了侮辱，我们看到了骚扰，

we've seen manipulation,

我们还看到了诱导性言论，

automation, human coordination, misinformation.

机器回复、水军、错误信息。

So these are all dynamics that we were not expecting

这些变化

13 years ago when we were starting the company.

是我们在13年前创建公司时 没有想到的。

But we do now see them at scale,

然而，现在这些言论数量巨大，

and what worries me most is just our ability to address it

我最担心的是我们是否有能力 解决这个问题，

in a systemic way that is scalable,

通过一种可延展的系统性方式，

that has a rigorous understanding of how we're taking action,

有一个严格的处理标准，

a transparent understanding of how we're taking action

过程公开透明，大众可以理解，

and a rigorous appeals process for when we're wrong,

并且在我们犯错的时候 有一个而严格的上诉机制，

because we will be wrong.

因为每个人都会犯错。

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: I'm really glad to hear

惠特尼·彭宁顿·罗杰斯： 我非常高兴

that that's something that concerns you,

听到你谈论你的担心，

because I think there's been a lot written about people

因为我觉得有很多人

who feel they've been abused and harassed on Twitter,

都觉得自己在推特上被侮辱和骚扰，

and I think no one more so than women and women of color

并且我觉得首当其冲的

and black women.

就是女性，非白人女性和黑人女性。

And there's been data that's come out --

有数据表明，

Amnesty International put out a report a few months ago

来自国际特赦组织几个月前的一份报告称

where they showed that a subset of active black female Twitter users

有一部分活跃的黑人女性推特用户

were receiving, on average, one in 10 of their tweets

平均每10条推文

were some form of harassment.

就会收到一条骚扰回复。

And so when you think about health for the community on Twitter,

当你谈论到为推特用户 塑造健康环境的时候，

I'm interested to hear, "health for everyone,"

我对你说的“大众的健康”很感兴趣，

but specifically: How are you looking to make Twitter a safe space

但具体来讲：你准备如何为这个群体、 为女性、为非白人女性和黑人女性

for that subset, for women, for women of color and black women?

营造一个安全的环境呢？

JD: Yeah.

多西：好的。

So it's a pretty terrible situation

现在状况比较糟糕，

when you're coming to a service

当你来到这个平台，

that, ideally, you want to learn something about the world,

理想情况下，你想了解这个世界，

and you spend the majority of your time reporting abuse, receiving abuse,

但你要花费大量时间来举报 和受到侮辱信息，

receiving harassment.

还有骚扰信息。

So what we're looking most deeply at is just the incentives

所以我们现在研究的是

that the platform naturally provides and the service provides.

平台和服务所提供的动机。

Right now, the dynamic of the system makes it super-easy to harass

现在，系统的动态性使得在平台上

and to abuse others through the service,

骚扰和侮辱他人非常容易，

and unfortunately, the majority of our system in the past

不幸的是，过去我们大部分系统

worked entirely based on people reporting harassment and abuse.

完全依赖于用户举报骚扰和侮辱信息。

So about midway last year, we decided that we were going to apply

大约在去年年中，我们决定更多采用

a lot more machine learning, a lot more deep learning to the problem,

机器学习与深度学习，

and try to be a lot more proactive around where abuse is happening,

使其能够主动发现侮辱信息，

so that we can take the burden off the victim completely.

这样我们就能让受害者卸下重担。

And we've made some progress recently.

最近我们颇有成效。

About 38 percent of abusive tweets are now proactively identified

机器自主学习算法

by machine learning algorithms

能够主动发现38%的侮辱性推文，

so that people don't actually have to report them.

这样人们就不用举报这些了。

But those that are identified are still reviewed by humans,

但即使机器识别了那些信息， 也还需要人来审查，

so we do not take down content or accounts without a human actually reviewing it.

所以在有人审查之前， 我们不会删除任何评论或账号。

But that was from zero percent just a year ago.

但重点是我们一年前是从零起步。

So that meant, at that zero percent,

我的意思是，以前，

every single person who received abuse had to actually report it,

每个受到侮辱的人都需要亲自举报，

which was a lot of work for them, a lot of work for us

对于他们和我们而言是一项大工程，

and just ultimately unfair.

并且这非常不公平。

The other thing that we're doing is making sure that we, as a company,

我们在做的另外一件事， 是确保在公司里

have representation of all the communities that we're trying to serve.

有足够的员工来代表反映 我们服务的所有群体。

We can't build a business that is successful

若我们的团队没有多元的观念，

unless we have a diversity of perspective inside of our walls

若没有员工会每天亲身经历这些问题，

that actually feel these issues every single day.

我们将无法成功地建立一个企业。

And that's not just with the team that's doing the work,

这一点不仅仅适用于开发小组，

it's also within our leadership as well.

也适用于领导团队。

So we need to continue to build empathy for what people are experiencing

所以我们要继续在 同情人们的遭遇的同时，

and give them better tools to act on it

给他们创造更好的交流平台，

and also give our customers a much better and easier approach

并且为我们的用户打造更好而简便的方法

to handle some of the things that they're seeing.

来处理一些问题。

So a lot of what we're doing is around technology,

所以我们的大部分工作都是 围绕科技展开的，

but we're also looking at the incentives on the service:

但我们同时也在思考这个服务的动机：

What does Twitter incentivize you to do when you first open it up?

当你第一次登录的时候， 推特鼓励你做了什么事？

And in the past,

在过去，

it's incented a lot of outrage, it's incented a lot of mob behavior,

这个平台催生了许多愤怒， 催生了许多暴徒行为，

it's incented a lot of group harassment.

也催生了许多团体骚扰。

And we have to look a lot deeper at some of the fundamentals

我们正在深入研究我们服务的基本原则，

of what the service is doing to make the bigger shifts.

以探求这种行为现象的原因。

We can make a bunch of small shifts around technology, as I just described,

正如我刚才所描述的， 我们可以在科技方面做出许多小的改变，

but ultimately, we have to look deeply at the dynamics in the network itself,

但最终，我们必须深入研究 网络本身的动态性，

and that's what we're doing.

而这就是我们现在所做的。

CA: But what's your sense --

安德森：但在你看来——

what is the kind of thing that you might be able to change

哪些方面的改动是你力所能及

that would actually fundamentally shift behavior?

并且可以从根本上改善人们行为的呢？

JD: Well, one of the things --

多西：有一件事——

we started the service with this concept of following an account,

我们开设的关注别人账号的这个功能，

as an example,

我举一个例子，

and I don't believe that's why people actually come to Twitter.

我猜这不是吸引人们用推特的主要原因。

I believe Twitter is best as an interest-based network.

我相信推特的最佳用途是构建兴趣网络。

People come with a particular interest.

人们来到这里，每个人兴趣不同，

They have to do a ton of work to find and follow the related accounts

他们需要花很大的工夫 才能找到志同道合的人，

around those interests.

关注兴趣相同的账号。

What we could do instead is allow you to follow an interest,

我们可以改进的地方在于 让你关注一项兴趣爱好，

follow a hashtag, follow a trend,

关注一个标签，关注一种趋势，

follow a community,

关注一个群体。

which gives us the opportunity to show all of the accounts,

通过这种方式，我们可以给你推荐 与你兴趣有关的

all the topics, all the moments, all the hashtags

所有账号、所有话题、

所有时刻以及所有标签，

that are associated with that particular topic and interest,

which really opens up the perspective that you see.

这可以开拓用户的视野。

But that is a huge fundamental shift

但要从只关注特定账号、 话题和兴趣爱好，

to bias the entire network away from just an account bias

转而关注整个社交网络，

towards a topics and interest bias.

这是一个非常巨大的转变。

CA: Because isn't it the case

安德森：但之所以推特上内容丰富，

that one reason why you have so much content on there

is a result of putting millions of people around the world

是因为

推特使全球很多人 在“角斗场”中相互竞争，

in this kind of gladiatorial contest with each other

for followers, for attention?

看谁有更多的粉丝，获得更多的关注吗？

Like, from the point of view of people who just read Twitter,

我是说，对于那些关注者而言，

that's not an issue,

这并不是什么大问题。

but for the people who actually create it, everyone's out there saying,

但对于那些博主而言，每个人都在说，

"You know, I wish I had a few more 'likes,' followers, retweets."

“你知道吗，我希望我也能有更多的赞、 更多的粉丝和转发，”

And so they're constantly experimenting,

所以他们不断地尝试，

trying to find the path to do that.

希望通过某种方式来做到这一点。

And what we've all discovered is that the number one path to do that

并且我们发现，能达成这个目的 最有效方法，

就是发表挑衅的、

is to be some form of provocative,

obnoxious, eloquently obnoxious,

讨厌的、词藻华丽而令人憎恶的言论，

like, eloquent insults are a dream on Twitter,

比方说，在推特上花式骂人，

where you rapidly pile up --

如果你不停地侮辱他人——

and it becomes this self-fueling process of driving outrage.

最终愤怒的情绪就会 自然不断地蔓延到其他人。

How do you defuse that?

你要怎么解决这个问题？

JD: Yeah, I mean, I think you're spot on,

多西：是的，我觉得你讲的正中要害，

but that goes back to the incentives.

但这反过来回到了刚才所说的动机问题。

Like, one of the choices we made in the early days was

在早期，我们设计的系统是这样的：

we had this number that showed how many people follow you.

系统会显示关注你账号的人数。

We decided that number should be big and bold,

我们决定让这个数字放大又加粗显示，

and anything that's on the page that's big and bold has importance,

你界面上放大粗体的字体都很重要，

and those are the things that you want to drive.

这些就是你想推动的东西。

Was that the right decision at the time?

对当时而言，这是否是正确的做法呢？

Probably not.

也许不是。

If I had to start the service again,

如果让我重头来过，

I would not emphasize the follower count as much.

我不会再这么强调关注人数。

我不会再这么强调推文的“喜爱”数量。

I would not emphasize the "like" count as much.

I don't think I would even create "like" in the first place,

我甚至不觉得我会创造“喜爱”这个功能，

because it doesn't actually push

因为这个功能并不能推动

我们眼中最重要的事：

what we believe now to be the most important thing,

which is healthy contribution back to the network

对网络提供健康的贡献，

and conversation to the network,

促进交流，

participation within conversation,

推动人们参与交流，

learning something from the conversation.

在交流中学习。

Those are not things that we thought of 13 years ago,

我们在13年前没有考虑到这些，

and we believe are extremely important right now.

但现在我们却认为它们非常重要。

So we have to look at how we display the follower count,

所以我们需要审视系统如何呈现粉丝数，

how we display retweet count,

呈现转推数，

how we display "likes,"

呈现“喜爱”的数量，

and just ask the deep question:

并且问这个深奥的问题：

Is this really the number that we want people to drive up?

我们想让人们提升的是否就是这个数字？

Is this the thing that, when you open Twitter,

我们是否希望人们打开推特，

you see, "That's the thing I need to increase?"

意识到，“这就是我要提升的东西？”

And I don't believe that's the case right now.

我相信现在答案是否定的。

(Applause)

（掌声）

WPR: I think we should look at some of the tweets

罗杰斯：我觉得我们也应该看看

that are coming in from the audience as well.

一部分来自听众的推文。

CA: Let's see what you guys are asking.

安德森：让我们看看你们在问什么。

I mean, this is -- generally, one of the amazing things about Twitter

我觉得，这是——总体而言， 推特的特点之一

is how you can use it for crowd wisdom,

在于它能够集中大众智慧，

you know, that more knowledge, more questions, more points of view

推特上的知识，问题和观点

多得超乎你的想象。

than you can imagine,

and sometimes, many of them are really healthy.

而且有时候，很多观点意见质量都很高。

WPR: I think one I saw that passed already quickly down here,

罗杰斯：刚才我看到的这个很好，在下面，

"What's Twitter's plan to combat foreign meddling in the 2020 US election?"

“在2020年美国大选中， 推特准备采取什么措施对抗外国干涉？”

我觉得这是我们在互联网上见到的

I think that's something that's an issue we're seeing

on the internet in general,

非常重要的一个问题，

that we have a lot of malicious automated activity happening.

网络上有着许多恶意的机器操作，

And on Twitter, for example, in fact, we have some work

用推特打个比方，

来自齐格努实验室的朋友 给了我们一些资料，

that's come from our friends at Zignal Labs,

and maybe we can even see that to give us an example

也许我们可以把这当做一个例子，

of what exactly I'm talking about,

来引出我想谈论的这个问题，

where you have these bots, if you will,

有很多机器人小号，

or coordinated automated malicious account activity,

或者说一系列的自动化恶意账号活动，

that is being used to influence things like elections.

它们被用来影响选举这类的事件。

And in this example we have from Zignal which they've shared with us

在这个例子中，齐格努给我们分享了一些

using the data that they have from Twitter,

他们从推特上收集到的数据，

you actually see that in this case,

你能在这里看到，

white represents the humans -- human accounts, each dot is an account.

白色代表——人类账号， 每个点代表一个账号，

The pinker it is,

颜色越粉，

the more automated the activity is.

说明这个账号活动越像机器人。

And you can see how you have a few humans interacting with bots.

你能到看到有一些人与机器账号互动，

In this case, it's related to the election in Israel

在这里，互动内容是关于 以色列选举的，

机器账号散播关于 本尼·甘茨的虚假信息，

and spreading misinformation about Benny Gantz,

and as we know, in the end, that was an election

我们都知道，选举的结果，

that Netanyahu won by a slim margin,

最终内塔尼亚胡以微弱优势获胜，

and that may have been in some case influenced by this.

而这个结果可能被这些互动影响了。

And when you think about that happening on Twitter,

当你想到推特上的这些事情时，

what are the things that you're doing, specifically,

你正在采取具体什么措施，

to ensure you don't have misinformation like this spreading in this way,

来保证类似的虚假信息不会传播，

influencing people in ways that could affect democracy?

影响他人，以致于影响民主制度呢？

JD: Just to back up a bit,

多西：让我们倒回去一点，

we asked ourselves a question:

我们问了自己一个问题：

Can we actually measure the health of a conversation,

我们是否能测量对话的质量？

and what does that mean?

而对质量的定义又是什么？

And in the same way that you have indicators

就像你我

and we have indicators as humans in terms of are we healthy or not,

作为人类会有显示 我们健不健康的指标，

such as temperature, the flushness of your face,

比如说体温，脸上的红晕，

we believe that we could find the indicators of conversational health.

我们相信我们能够找到反应 谈话健康程度的指标。

And we worked with a lab called Cortico at MIT

我们与麻省理工学院的 一个名叫匡提科的实验室合作，

to propose four starter indicators

提出了四项指标，

that we believe we could ultimately measure on the system.

我们认为最终可以运用在系统上。

And the first one is what we're calling shared attention.

第一项指标叫作共同关注。

It's a measure of how much of the conversation is attentive

这个指标用于测量对话中 人们多大程度集中于

on the same topic versus disparate.

同一个话题，还是不同的话题。

The second one is called shared reality,

第二个指标叫作共同现实。

and this is what percentage of the conversation

这个指标用于测量这段对话有多少部分

shares the same facts --

是基于共同事实的——

not whether those facts are truthful or not,

不是指这些事实真实与否，

but are we sharing the same facts as we converse?

而是我们认为的事实是否相同？

The third is receptivity:

第三个指标是感受性：

How much of the conversation is receptive or civil

一段对话在多大程度上是温和， 让人容易接受的，

or the inverse, toxic?

亦或者是完全相反，会使人不快呢？

And then the fourth is variety of perspective.

第四个指标是观点多样性。

So, are we seeing filter bubbles or echo chambers,

我们所接收的信息是否被筛选过， 人云亦云，

or are we actually getting a variety of opinions

又或者是我们能在谈话中

within the conversation?

接收到许多不同的观点呢？

And implicit in all four of these is the understanding that,

而这四个指标背后蕴含意思是

as they increase, the conversation gets healthier and healthier.

指标越高，谈话的质量就越高。

So our first step is to see if we can measure these online,

所以第一步是试验是否能在网上 检测这些指标，

which we believe we can.

我们内心持肯定的态度。

We have the most momentum around receptivity.

我们在感受性方面势头较大。

We have a toxicity score, a toxicity model, on our system

我们在系统中建立了反感分， 一个反感模型，

that can actually measure whether you are likely to walk away

它能够检测在推特上

你是否会终止某个你正在参与的话题，

from a conversation that you're having on Twitter

因为这个话题让你感到不快，

because you feel it's toxic,

with some pretty high degree.

并且是非常不愉快。

We're working to measure the rest,

我们正在努力测量其他指标，

and the next step is,

而下一步是，

as we build up solutions,

在我们制定解决方案之后，

to watch how these measurements trend over time

观察这些指标长期的趋势走向，

并且继续试验。

and continue to experiment.

And our goal is to make sure that these are balanced,

我们的目标是保证这些指标的平衡，

because if you increase one, you might decrease another.

因为一个指标的提升可能会导致 另一个的降低。

If you increase variety of perspective,

如果你提高观点的多样性，

you might actually decrease shared reality.

可能就会导致共同现实值的降低。

CA: Just picking up on some of the questions flooding in here.

安德森：让我们选择屏幕上的 一些问题提问。

JD: Constant questioning.

多西：持续不断地发问。

CA: A lot of people are puzzled why,

安德森：许多人好奇，

like, how hard is it to get rid of Nazis from Twitter?

在推特上把纳粹清除出去有多难？

JD: (Laughs)

多西：（笑声）

So we have policies around violent extremist groups,

我们对于暴力极端组织制定了规则，

and the majority of our work and our terms of service

而我们的大部分工作和服务条款

works on conduct, not content.

是研究用户行为，而非网站内容。

So we're actually looking for conduct.

所以我们实际上在研究行为模式。

Conduct being using the service

比如说，有人利用这个平台

to repeatedly or episodically harass someone,

来持续或是间断性地骚扰他人，

using hateful imagery

利用可憎的意象，

that might be associated with the KKK

比如可能与3K党有关的意象，

or the American Nazi Party.

或是与美国纳粹党有关的。

Those are all things that we act on immediately.

这些都是我们会立即处理的问题。

We're in a situation right now where that term is used fairly loosely,

现在，这些术语被使用的次数相对较多， 用词不严谨，

and we just cannot take any one mention of that word

所以我们不能因为有人提到这些单词，

accusing someone else

就指控某人有罪，

as a factual indication that they should be removed from the platform.

并且以此为证据将他们赶出这个平台。

So a lot of our models are based around, number one:

所以我们的许多模型 要检测的第一件事是：

Is this account associated with a violent extremist group?

这个账号是否与暴力极端组织 有联系？

And if so, we can take action.

如果答案是肯定的， 那我们可以采取措施。

And we have done so on the KKK and the American Nazi Party and others.

我们对于3K党、美国纳粹党 以及其他组织就采取了措施。

And number two: Are they using imagery or conduct

第二个问题：这些账号是否在使用 与上述组织有关的图片，

that would associate them as such as well?

或是其行为是否与上述组织有关？

CA: How many people do you have working on content moderation

安德森：你安排了多少人给账号行为评分，

来检查这些行为？

to look at this?

JD: It varies.

多西：人数不固定。

We want to be flexible on this,

我们希望能灵活应对这件事，

because we want to make sure that we're, number one,

因为我们想保证，第一，

building algorithms instead of just hiring massive amounts of people,

建立算法而不是雇佣大量的人，

because we need to make sure that this is scalable,

因为我们这项任务是会延展的

and there are no amount of people that can actually scale this.

雇多少人都会显得不够。

So this is why we've done so much work around proactive detection of abuse

这就是为什么我们要努力建立 能积极检测辱骂信息的系统，

that humans can then review.

然后让人来审阅这些信息。

We want to have a situation

我们希望可以做到让

算法能够不断检测所有的推文，

where algorithms are constantly scouring every single tweet

and bringing the most interesting ones to the top

把其中问题最大的挑出来，

so that humans can bring their judgment to whether we should take action or not,

这样人就可以决定到底要不要采取措施，

基于我们的服务条款。

based on our terms of service.

WPR: But there's not an amount of people that are scalable,

罗杰斯：你说从事这项工作的人数 永远不够，

but how many people do you currently have monitoring these accounts,

那么你现在到底雇佣了多少人 来监控账号？

你怎么知道这些人足够完成任务？

and how do you figure out what's enough?

JD: They're completely flexible.

多西：我们的安排非常灵活。

Sometimes we associate folks with spam.

有时我们让人监控垃圾信息。

Sometimes we associate folks with abuse and harassment.

有时我们让人监控侮辱和 骚扰信息。

We're going to make sure that we have flexibility in our people

我们要确保我们的人事安排足够灵活，

这样我们就能把他们派往 最有需要的地方。

so that we can direct them at what is most needed.

有时，他们监控选举信息。

Sometimes, the elections.

We've had a string of elections in Mexico, one coming up in India,

我们在墨西哥有一组人， 马上在印度也会成立一个小组。

obviously, the election last year, the midterm election,

很明显，去年有选举，中期选举，

so we just want to be flexible with our resources.

所以我们希望确保人员流动性。

So when people --

当人们——

just as an example, if you go to our current terms of service

举个例子，如果你现在去查 我们的服务条款，

and you bring the page up,

然后你打开页面，

and you're wondering about abuse and harassment that you just received

然后你想弄明白你刚刚收到的 侮辱和骚扰，

and whether it was against our terms of service to report it,

它们是否违反我们的服务条款， 是否要举报，

the first thing you see when you open that page

你打开页面后看到的第一个东西，

is around intellectual property protection.

是知识产权保护。

You scroll down and you get to abuse, harassment

你向下看就能看到侮辱，骚扰有关，

and everything else that you might be experiencing.

以及其他所有你可能会遭遇的事情。

So I don't know how that happened over the company's history,

尽管我不清楚为什么近几年来 推特上会出现这些问题，

but we put that above the thing that people want

但我们把这些信息列为人们 最需要的信息，

the most information on and to actually act on.

并且正在着手解决这些问题。

And just our ordering shows the world what we believed was important.

这些信息排列的先后顺序 代表了我们对其的重视程度。

So we're changing all that.

所以我们正在改变。

We're ordering it the right way,

我们以正确的顺序排列信息，

but we're also simplifying the rules so that they're human-readable

但同时我们也在简化规则， 使其简单易懂，

so that people can actually understand themselves

这样人们就能理解

when something is against our terms and when something is not.

哪些行为违反了条例，哪些没有。

And then we're making --

接下来我们——

again, our big focus is on removing the burden of work from the victims.

正如我刚才所说，现在工作的重点 是减少受害者的操作压力。

So that means push more towards technology,

这意味着继续发展科技，

rather than humans doing the work --

代替真人做这些工作——

that means the humans receiving the abuse

真人会接收侮辱信息，

and also the humans having to review that work.

同时还要亲自举报。

So we want to make sure

所以我们并不希望

that we're not just encouraging more work

我们一步步

around something that's super, super negative,

朝一些负面的东西发展，

and we want to have a good balance between the technology

我们希望

and where humans can actually be creative,

在科技和人类创新中取得平衡，

which is the judgment of the rules,

让人类来审查规则，

and not just all the mechanical stuff of finding and reporting them.

而非机械地发现问题，报告问题。

So that's how we think about it.

以上就是我们的想法。

CA: I'm curious to dig in more about what you said.

安德森：我想进一步了解你刚刚讲的事。

I mean, I love that you said you are looking for ways

我的意思是，我很开心听到你说 你在寻求方法

to re-tweak the fundamental design of the system

来调整重构系统设计，

to discourage some of the reactive behavior, and perhaps --

来阻止一些反应性行为，并且或许——

to use Tristan Harris-type language --

引用特里斯坦·哈里斯的说法——

engage people's more reflective thinking.

鼓励人们反思。

How far advanced is that?

你现在进行到哪一步？

What would alternatives to that "like" button be?

你准备用什么功能 来代替“喜欢”功能？

JD: Well, first and foremost,

多西：首先，

my personal goal with the service is that I believe fundamentally

我对于推特的个人目标来自于

我认为公众交流是最关键的。

that public conversation is critical.

There are existential problems facing the world

世界上有一些问题，

that are facing the entire world, not any one particular nation-state,

不仅仅某个特定国家地区， 全世界都面临这些问题，

that global public conversation benefits.

而全球公共交流 有助于解决这些问题。

And that is one of the unique dynamics of Twitter,

这就是推特独特的活力之一，

that it is completely open,

这个平台完全开放，

it is completely public,

完全公共，

完全流动，

it is completely fluid,

and anyone can see any other conversation and participate in it.

任何人可以浏览和参与和人话题。

So there are conversations like climate change.

所以会有气候变化的讨论。

There are conversations like the displacement in the work

有对人工智能取代人类的讨论。

through artificial intelligence.

There are conversations like economic disparity.

有对经济差距的讨论。

No matter what any one nation-state does,

无论你来自哪个国家或地区，

they will not be able to solve the problem alone.

人类都无法独自解决这些问题。

It takes coordination around the world,

这需要全球合作，

and that's where I think Twitter can play a part.

我们认为这就是推特发挥作用的地方。

The second thing is that Twitter, right now, when you go to it,

第二，现在你登录推特，

you don't necessarily walk away feeling like you learned something.

当你离开的时候， 也许你觉得没什么收获，

Some people do.

但有些人觉得有收获。

Some people have a very, very rich network,

有些人的社交网络非常丰富，

a very rich community that they learn from every single day.

他们身处一个庞大的社区， 每天都可以学习到新的知识。

But it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to build up to that.

但要想建造这样的社区， 需要大量的精力和时间。

So we want to get people to those topics and those interests

所以我们让人们可以更快得

much, much faster

找到那些主题、那些兴趣。

and make sure that they're finding something that,

并确保他们有所收获，

no matter how much time they spend on Twitter --

无论他们每天在推特上花多少时间——

and I don't want to maximize the time on Twitter,

我不想扩大用户使用推特的时间，

I want to maximize what they actually take away from it

我想扩大用户在推特上的收获，

and what they learn from it, and --

让他们在推特上学到更多知识，并且——

CA: Well, do you, though?

Because that's the core question that a lot of people want to know.

安德森：你是这么想的吗?

这是许多人想问的一个核心问题。

Surely, Jack, you're constrained, to a huge extent,

当然，杰克，你在很大程度上受到约束，

by the fact that you're a public company,

因为这是一家上市公司，

you've got investors pressing on you,

你会收到投资者的压力，

the number one way you make your money is from advertising --

你赚钱的方法之一是广告——

that depends on user engagement.

而广告的数量取决于用户参与度。

Are you willing to sacrifice user time, if need be,

如果有需要的话， 你是否愿意牺牲用户参与度，

to go for a more reflective conversation?

来换取更加有效的交流呢？

JD: Yeah; more relevance means less time on the service,

多西：当然；高效交流意味着 用户使用时间的减少，

and that's perfectly fine,

我完全可以接受这个，

because we want to make sure that, like, you're coming to Twitter,

因为我们希望确保，当你来到推特，

and you see something immediately that you learn from and that you push.

你马上就能看到一些你感兴趣， 想学的东西。

We can still serve an ad against that.

在这个基础上，我们依然能投放广告。

That doesn't mean you need to spend any more time to see more.

这并不意味着你需要加快速度 看更多的东西。

The second thing we're looking at --

第二件我们正在研究的事情是...

CA: But just -- on that goal, daily active usage,

安德森：但是，就你的目标而言，

如果每日活跃参与度 是你追求的东西的话，

if you're measuring that, that doesn't necessarily mean things

这个指数并不意味着人们 每天参与了兴趣相关的事务。

that people value every day.

It may well mean

它可能指

things that people are drawn to like a moth to the flame, every day.

人们每天出于好奇围观的事务。

We are addicted, because we see something that pisses us off,

我们之所以沉迷于此，因为我们 看到一些惹怒我们的东西，

so we go in and add fuel to the fire,

然后我们参与进去，与别人争论，

and the daily active usage goes up,

然后每日活跃参与度就上升了，

and there's more ad revenue there,

因此广告收益也增多了，

but we all get angrier with each other.

但最终结果是我们愈发互相仇恨。

How do you define ...

你是如何定义...

"Daily active usage" seems like a really dangerous term to be optimizing.

过于美化“每日活跃参与度”这个数值 似乎是一件危险的事。

(Applause)

（掌声）

JD: Taken alone, it is,

多西：确实，如果你单独 讨论这个数值的话，

but you didn't let me finish the other metric,

但你得让我介绍其他衡量标准，

which is, we're watching for conversations

我们同时也在检测谈话

and conversation chains.

和谈话链。

So we want to incentivize healthy contribution back to the network,

我们希望鼓励平台发展健康交流，

and what we believe that is is actually participating in conversation

而我们认为健康交流的定义是

参与有益的交流，

that is healthy,

as defined by those four indicators I articulated earlier.

这里的有益通过我刚刚所 提到的四个指标来测量。

So you can't just optimize around one metric.

所以你不能只看一个指标。

你得平衡一下，不断观察

You have to balance and look constantly

at what is actually going to create a healthy contribution to the network

在平台上什么因素可以创造健康交流，

and a healthy experience for people.

可以为人们创造健康的体验。

Ultimately, we want to get to a metric

最终，我们希望可以达到这样的标准，

where people can tell us, "Hey, I learned something from Twitter,

人们会说：“嘿，我从推特上 学到了一些东西，

and I'm walking away with something valuable."

它让我增长了见识。”

That is our goal ultimately over time,

这是我们未来的最终目标，

但距离这个目标的实现还有一段时间。

but that's going to take some time.

CA: You come over to many, I think to me, as this enigma.

安德森：你在很多人看来，是一个谜。 我也这样觉得。

This is possibly unfair, but I woke up the other night

这可能不公平， 但当我之前某天醒来的时候，

with this picture of how I found I was thinking about you and the situation,

脑海中的画面是你和这个现状，

that we're on this great voyage with you on this ship called the "Twittanic" --

我们正乘坐在一艘名为“推坦尼克号” 的巨轮上前进...

(Laughter)

（笑声）

and there are people on board in steerage

在船上，普通舱的一些人

who are expressing discomfort,

感觉非常不舒服，

and you, unlike many other captains,

而你，和其他船长不同，

are saying, "Well, tell me, talk to me, listen to me, I want to hear."

说：“嘿，告诉我， 我想知道你们的意见。”

And they talk to you, and they say, "We're worried about the iceberg ahead."

所以人们过来跟你讲话，他们说： “我们担心前方的冰山。”

然后你回答：“你们知道吗， 那是一个巨大的挑战，

And you go, "You know, that is a powerful point,

and our ship, frankly, hasn't been built properly

说实话，我们的船可能不像 它看上去的那样

for steering as well as it might."

可以轻松转向。”

And we say, "Please do something."

然后人们说：“请想想办法。”

And you go to the bridge,

然后你登上舰桥，

and we're waiting,

我们就在等待。

and we look, and then you're showing this extraordinary calm,

我们向外看，发现你神态自若，

but we're all standing outside, saying, "Jack, turn the fucking wheel!"

但我们都站在外面， 喊着：“杰克，求你快点转向！”

You know?

你能懂吗？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

(Applause)

（掌声）

I mean --

我是说

(Applause)

（掌声）

It's democracy at stake.

民主制度危在旦夕。

It's our culture at stake. It's our world at stake.

我们的文化、我们的世界危在旦夕。

And Twitter is amazing and shapes so much.

推特非常了不起，变化非常巨大。

It's not as big as some of the other platforms,

它也许没有另一些平台那么大，

but the people of influence use it to set the agenda,

但有影响力的人用它来设定世界议程，

and it's just hard to imagine a more important role in the world than to ...

很难想象世界上比它更重要的角色。

I mean, you're doing a brilliant job of listening, Jack, and hearing people,

我的意思是，杰克，你现在 听取他人意见，你做得很好，

but to actually dial up the urgency and move on this stuff --

但讲到真正专心推动解决的办法——

will you do that?

你会这么做吗？

JD: Yes, and we have been moving substantially.

多西：能，我们取得了 一些实质性的进展。

I mean, there's been a few dynamics in Twitter's history.

我的意思是，在推特的历史上 有着一些巨大变化。

One, when I came back to the company,

当我重回到公司时，

we were in a pretty dire state in terms of our future,

我们对未来情形一筹莫展，

and not just from how people were using the platform,

不仅仅是因为人们使用这个平台的方法，

but from a corporate narrative as well.

还因为公司结构的问题。

So we had to fix a bunch of the foundation,

所以我们得改变一些公司基础，

turn the company around,

转变公司的方向，

go through two crazy layoffs,

经历两次疯狂的裁员，

because we just got too big for what we were doing,

因为对于当时的业务而言雇员太多，

and we focused all of our energy

然后我们将工作重心

on this concept of serving the public conversation.

放在为公众交流服务上。

这花了一点时间。

And that took some work.

And as we dived into that,

当我们开始关注这方面时，

we realized some of the issues with the fundamentals.

我们意识到一些原则性的问题。

We could do a bunch of superficial things to address what you're talking about,

为了达成你所说的目的， 我们可以采取一系列浅层措施，

but we need the changes to last,

但我们需要找到可持续的改进措施，

and that means going really, really deep

而这意味着非常深入，

and paying attention to what we started 13 years ago

观察我们13年前建立的东西，

and really questioning

并且反省

how the system works and how the framework works

这个系统是怎样工作的， 这个框架是怎样工作的，

and what is needed for the world today,

现今社会需要的是什么，

given how quickly everything is moving and how people are using it.

考虑到世界变化之快和 人们使用它的方法。

So we are working as quickly as we can, but quickness will not get the job done.

所以我们已经尽快努力了， 但速度无法帮我们完成任务。

It's focus, it's prioritization,

重要的是专注、优先级、

it's understanding the fundamentals of the network

是对网络之基的理解，

and building a framework that scales

构建可以灵活变动、适应变化的机制。

and that is resilient to change,

and being open about where we are and being transparent about where are

坦诚布公我们的现状，

so that we can continue to earn trust.

这样我们才能继续赢得人们的信任。

所以我对已经投入执行的机制感到自豪。

So I'm proud of all the frameworks that we've put in place.

I'm proud of our direction.

我对我们选定的前进方向感到自豪。

We obviously can move faster,

显然，我们可以更快进步，

but that required just stopping a bunch of stupid stuff we were doing in the past.

但这需要我们放弃过去一系列愚蠢的决定。

安德森：很好。

CA: All right.

Well, I suspect there are many people here who, if given the chance,

那么，我觉得如果有机会的话， 在场的很多人

would love to help you on this change-making agenda you're on,

都愿意帮助你完场这一项重大改变，

and I don't know if Whitney --

我不知道惠特尼是否还有问题，

Jack, thank you for coming here and speaking so openly.

杰克，感谢你能来与我们 开诚布公地讨论。

It took courage.

这非常需要勇气。

I really appreciate what you said, and good luck with your mission.

我对你所说的非常感激， 祝你好运完成任务。

JD: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

多西：非常感谢。谢谢你们邀请我。

(Applause)

（掌声）

Thank you.

谢谢。