A New Understanding of Human History and the Roots of Inequality | David Wengrow | TED

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Ivana Korom

In the summer of 2014,

U leto 2014,

I was in Iraqi Kurdistan with a small team of archaeologists,

bio sam u Iračkom Kurdistanu sa malom ekipom arheologa,

finishing a season of field excavations near the border town of Halabja.

završavali smo sezonu iskopavanja na terenu blizu pograničnog grada Halabdže.

Our project was looking into something which has puzzled and intrigued me

Naš projekat je istraživao nešto što me je zbunjivalo i intrigiralo

ever since I began studying archeology.

još otkad sam počeo da izučavam arheologiju.

We're taught to believe that thousands of years ago,

Naučeni smo da verujemo da je pre više hiljada godina

when our ancestors first invented agriculture

kada su naši preci tek izumeli zemljoradnju

in that part of the world,

u tom delu sveta,

that it set in motion a chain of consequences

to pokrenulo lanac posledica

that would shape our modern world in a particular direction,

koje će oblikovati naš savremeni svet u određenom smeru,

on a particular course.

u određenom pravcu.

By farming wheat,

Obrađujući pšenicu,

our ancestors supposedly developed new attachments to the land they lived on.

naši preci su navodno razvili novu privrženost zemlji na kojoj su živeli.

Private property was invented.

Izumljeno je privatno vlasništvo.

And with that, the need to defend it.

A s tim i potreba da se ono brani.

Along with new opportunities for some people to accumulate surpluses,

Sa novim prilikama za neke ljude da gomilaju viškove

came new labor demands,

stigli su novi zahtevi za radnom snagom,

tying most people to a hard regime of tending their crops

vezujući većinu ljudi za teški režim brige o njihovim usevima,

while a privileged few received freedom

dok je privilegovana nekolicina dobila slobodu

and the leisure to do other things.

i dokolicu da se bavi drugim stvarima.

To think, to experiment,

Da razmišlja, eksperimentiše,

to create the foundations of what we refer to as civilization.

da stvara temelje onoga što nazivamo civilizacijom.

Now, according to this familiar story,

Prema ovoj poznatoj priči,

what happened next is that populations boomed,

usledio je populacijski procvat,

villages turned into towns, towns became cities,

sela su prerasla u gradove, gradovi su postali velegradovi,

and with the emergence of cities,

a s usponom velegradova,

our species was locked on a familiar trajectory of development

naša vrsta je fiksirana na poznatoj trajektoriji razvoja

where spiraling populations and technological change

gde su uzlazna populacijska kriva i tehnološke promene

were bound up with the kind of dreadful inequalities

ujedinjeni sa tipom užasnih nejednakosti

that we see around us today.

koje vidimo oko nas trenutno.

Except, as anyone can tell you,

Samo što, kao što vam bilo ko može reći

who's looked at the evidence from the Middle East,

ko je pogledao dokaze sa Bliskog istoka,

almost nothing of what I've just been saying is actually true.

skoro da ništa od ovoga što sam govorio nije zapravo istina.

And the consequences I'm going to suggest

A posledice koje nagoveštavam

are quite profound.

su prilično temeljne.

Actually, what happened after the invention of agriculture

Zapravo, ono što se desilo nakon izuma zemljoradnje

around 10,000 years ago,

pre oko 10 000 godina

is a long period of around another 4,000 years

je dug period od još dodatnih oko 4 000 godina

in which villages largely remained villages.

u kome su sela većim delom ostajala sela.

And actually there's very little evidence for the emergence of rigid social classes,

I zapravo ima veoma malo dokaza o pojavi rigidnih društvenih klasa,

which is not to say that nothing happened.

što ne znači da se ništa nije dešavalo.

Over those 4,000 years,

Tokom tih 4 000 godina,

technological change actually proceeded apace.

tehnološke promene su zapravo išle u korak.

Without kings,

Bez kraljeva,

without bureaucracies, without standing armies,

bez birokratije, bez profesionalne vojske,

these early farming populations fostered the development of mathematical knowledge,

ove rane zemljoradničke populacije su negovale razvoj matematičkog znanja,

advanced metallurgy.

napredne metalurgije.

They learned to cultivate olives, vines and date palms.

Naučili su da uzgajaju masline, grožđe i urminu palmu.

They invented leavened bread, beer,

Izumeli su kvasni hleb, pivo

and they developed textile technologies:

i razvili su tekstilnu tehnologiju:

the potter's wheel, the sail.

grnčarski točak, jedro.

And they spread all of these innovations far and wide,

I rasprostranili su sve ove pronalaske naširoko i nadugačko,

from the shores of the eastern Mediterranean,

od obala istočnog Mediterana

up to the Black Sea,

skroz gore do Crnog Mora,

and from the Persian Gulf,

i od Persijskog zaliva

all the way over to the mountains of Kurdistan,

skroz preko do planina Kurdistana,

where our excavations were taking place.

gde su se naša iskopavanja dešavala.

I've often referred, half jokingly, to this long period of human history

Često sam nazivao, u polušali, ovaj dugi period ljudske istorije

as the era of the first global village.

erom prvog globalnog sela.

Because it's not just the technological innovations that are so remarkable,

Jer nisu samo tehnološki pronalasci ono što je tako izvanredno

but also the social innovations

već i društvena inventivnost

which enabled people to do all these things

koja je omogućila ljudima da sve ovo postignu

without forming centers

bez formiranja centara

and without raising up a class of permanent leaders over everybody else.

i bez uspostavljanja klase trajnih vladara nad svima ostalima.

Now, oddly enough,

Sad, zaprepašćujuće je

this efflorescence of culture is not what we usually refer to

da ovaj kulturološki procvat obično ne nazivamo

as civilization.

civilizacijom.

Instead, that term is usually reserved for harshly unequal societies,

Naprotiv, taj termin je obično rezervisan za strogo nejednaka društva,

which came thousands of years later.

koja su usledila hiljadama godina kasnije.

Dynastic Mesopotamia. Pharaonic Egypt.

Dinastička Mesopotamija. Faraonski Egipat.

Imperial Rome.

Rimsko Carstvo.

Societies that were deeply stratified.

Društva koja su bila duboko raslojena.

So in short,

Dakle, ukratko,

I've always felt that there was basically something very weird

oduvek sam osećao da je u suštini nešto krajnje čudno

about our concept of civilization,

u našem konceptu civilizacije,

something that leaves us lost for words, tongue tied.

nešto što nas ostavlja bez reči, svezanog jezika.

When we're confronted with thousands of years of human beings,

Kada smo suočeni sa hiljadama godina u kojima se ljudska bića,

say, practicing agriculture, creating new technologies,

recimo, bave zemljoradnjom, stvarajući nove tehnologije,

but not lording it over each other

ali ne vladajući jedni drugima

or exploiting each other to the maximum.

ili maksimalno ne eksploatišući jedni druge.

Why don't we have better words?

Zašto nemamo bolje reči?

Where is our lexicon for those long expanses of human history

Gde nam je leksikon za ta duga prostranstva ljudske istorije

in which we weren't behaving that way?

u kojima se nismo ponašali na taj način?

Over the past ten years or more,

Tokom prethodnih deset ili više godina,

I worked closely together with the late,

blisko sam sarađivao sa pokojnim,

great anthropologist David Graeber

sjajnim antropologom Dejvidom Greberom

to address some of these questions.

kako bih se pozabavio ovim pitanjima.

Bavili smo se time pak na većim razmerama

But we did it on a much larger scale

because from our perspective as an archaeologist and an anthropologist,

jer iz našeg arheološkog i antropološkog ugla

this clash between theory and data,

ovaj sudar između teorije i podataka,

between the standard narrative of human history

između standardnog narativa o ljudskoj istoriji

and the evidence that we have before us today

i dokaza koji su trenutno pred nama

is not just confined to the early Middle East.

nije samo ograničen na rani Bliski istok.

It’s everything:

Radi se o svemu:

out whole picture of human history that we’ve been telling for centuries,

naša celokupna slika ljudske istorije koju pripovedamo vekovima

it’s basically wrong.

je u suštini pogrešna.

I'm going to try and explain a few more of the reasons why.

Pokušaću da objasnim još nekoliko razloga zašto je tako.

Let's go back to some of those core concepts,

Vratimo se na neke od ključnih koncepata,

the stable reference points around which we've been organizing

stabilnih referentnih tačaka oko kojih smo organizovali

and orchestrating our understanding of world history for hundreds of years.

i upravljali našim razumevanjem svetske istorije stotinama godina.

Take, for instance, that notion that for most of its history,

Uzmite, primera radi, pretpostavku da je većim delom svoje istorije

the human species lived in tiny egalitarian bands of hunter gatherers,

ljudska vrsta živela u malenim egalitarnim grupama lovaca sakupljača

until the advent of agriculture ushered in a new age of inequality.

sve dok pojava zemljoradnje nije otpočela novo doba nejednakosti.

Or the notion that with the arrival of cities came social classes,

Ili pretpostavku da su sa nastankom gradova došle i društvene klase,

sacred kings and rapacious oligarchs trampling everyone else underfoot.

sveti kraljevi i gramzivi oligarsi koji gaze sve pred sobom.

From our very first history lessons,

Od naših prvih lekcija iz istorije

we're taught to believe that our modern world,

naučeni smo da verujemo da naš savremeni svet,

with all of its advantages and amenities,

sa svim svojim prednostima i pogodnostima,

modern health care, space travel,

savremenim zdravstvom, svemirskim putovanjima,

all the things that are good and exciting,

svim onim što je dobro i uzbudljivo

couldn't possibly exist

ne bi uopšte mogao da postoji

without that original concentration of humanity

bez te prvobitne koncentracije čovečanstva

into larger and larger units

u sve veće i veće jedinice

and the relentless buildup of inequalities that came with it.

i nemilosrdnog gomilanja nejednakosti koje su to pratile.

Inequality, we're taught to believe,

Nejednakost, naučeni smo da verujemo,

was the necessary price of civilization.

bila je nužna cena za civilizaciju.

Well, if so, then what are we to make of the early Middle East?

Pa, ako je tako, kako onda da razumemo rani Bliski istok?

Perhaps one might say there was just a very, very, very long lag time,

Možda, neko bi rekao, prosto je postojala veoma, veoma, veoma duga vremenska pauza

4,000 years,

od 4 000 godina,

before all these developments took place.

pre nego što se sav ovaj razvoj desio.

Inequality was bound to happen, it was bound to set in.

Nejednakosti je bilo suđeno da se desi, suđeno je bilo da usledi.

It was just a matter of time.

Prosto je bilo pitanje vremena.

And perhaps the rest of the story still works

I možda ostatak priče i dalje funkcioniše

for other parts of the world.

za ostale delove sveta.

Well, let's think a bit about what we can actually say today

Pa, razmislimo malo o tome šta zapravo danas možemo reći

about the origin of cities.

o poreklu gradova.

Surely, you might think, with the appearance of cities

Zasigurno biste pomislili da je sa pojavom gradova

came the appearance of social classes.

došlo i do pojave društvenih klasa.

Think about ancient Egypt with its pyramid temples.

Setite se drevnog Egipta sa hramovima u vidu piramida.

Or Shang China with its lavish tombs.

Ili dinastije Šeng sa raskošnim grobnicama.

The classic Maya with their warlike rulers.

Klasičnih Maja sa ratobornim vladarima.

Or the Inca empire with its mummified kings and queens.

Ili carstva Inka sa mumificiranim kraljevima i kraljicama.

But actually, the picture these days is not so clear.

Međutim, zapravo slika ovih dana nije tako jasna.

What modern archeology tells us, for example,

Savremena arheologija nam govori, na primer,

is that there were already cities

da su već postojali gradovi

on the lower reaches of the Yellow River

na donjim tokovima Huanghea

over 1,000 years before the rise of the Shang.

više od 1 000 godina pre uspona Šeng dinastije.

And on the other side of the Pacific,

A sa druge strane Pacifika,

in Peru’s Rio Supe,

u Rio Supe u Peruu,

we already see huge agglomerations of people

već vidimo ogromna sakupljanja ljudi

with monumental architecture 4,000 years before the Inca.

sa monumentalnom arhitekturom 4 000 godina pre Inka.

In South Asia, 4,500 years ago,

U Južnoj Aziji, pre 4 500 godina,

the first cities appeared at places like Mohenjo-daro

prvi gradovi su se pojavili na mestima poput Mohendžo-daro

and Harappa in the Indus Valley.

i Harapa u dolini Inda.

But these huge settlements present no evidence of kings or queens.

Međutim, ove ogromne naseobine ne nude dokaze o kraljevima i kraljicama.

No royal monuments, no aggrandizing art.

Nema kraljevskih spomenika, nema grandiozne umetnosti.

And what's more, we know that much of the population

Štaviše, znamo da je veći deo populacije

lived in high-quality housing with excellent sanitation.

živeo u visokokvalitetnim kućama sa odličnom sanitacijom.

North of the Black Sea,

Severno od Crnog Mora,

in the modern country of Ukraine,

u savremenoj državi Ukrajini,

archaeologists have found evidence of even more ancient cities

arheolozi su otkrili dokaze još drevnijih gradova

going back 6,000 years.

koji sežu 6 000 godina unazad.

And again,

I opet,

these huge settlements present no evidence

ove ogromne naseobine ne nude dokaze

of authoritarian rule.

o autoritarnoj vladavini.

No temples, no palaces,

Nema hramova, nema palata,

not even any evidence of central storage facilities

nema čak ni dokaza o centralizovanim skladištima

or top-down bureaucracy.

ili hijerarhijskoj birokratiji.

Actually what we see in those cases are these great concentric rings of houses

Zapravo ono što vidimo u tim slučajevima su veliki koncentrični prstenovi kuća

arranged rather like the inside of a tree trunk

koji su raspoređeni pre nalik unutrašnjosti debla drveta

around neighborhood assembly halls.

oko komšijskih zbornica.

And it stayed that way for about 800 years.

I to je tako bilo oko 800 godina.

So what this means is that long before the birth of democracy in ancient Greece,

Ovo, dakle, znači da su mnogo pre rođenja demokratije u antičkoj Grčkoj

there were already well-organized cities

već postojali dobro organizovani gradovi

on several of the world's continents

na nekoliko svetskih kontinenata

which present no evidence for ruling dynasties.

koji ne nude dokaze o vladajućim dinastijama.

And some of them also seem to have managed perfectly well without priests,

A kako se čini, neki su se snalazili sasvim dobro bez sveštenika,

mandarins and warrior politicians.

mandarina i političara ratnika.

Of course, some early cities did go on

Naravno, neki rani gradovi jesu prerasli

to become the capitals of kingdoms and empires.

u glavne gradove kraljevstava i carstava.

But it's important to note that others went

Međutim, važno je naglasiti da su drugi otišli

in completely the opposite direction.

u potpuno suprotnom smeru.

To take one well-documented example,

Uzmite jedan dobro dokumentovan primer,

around the year 250 AD,

oko 250. godine p.n.e.,

the city of Teotihuacan, in the valley of Mexico,

grad Teotivakan u dolini Meksika,

with a population of around 100,000 people,

sa populacijom od oko 100 000 ljudi,

turned its back on pyramid temples and human sacrifices

okrenuo je leđa hramovima u obliku piramida i ljudskim žrtvama

and reconstituted itself

i nanovo se konstituisao

as a vast collection of comfortable villas housing most of the city's population.

u ogromnu kolekciju udobnih vila u kojima je živeo veći deo gradske populacije.

When archaeologists first investigated these buildings,

Kada su arheolozi prvi put istražili ove građevine,

they assumed they were palaces.

pretpostavili su da se radi o palatama.

Then they realized that just about everyone in the city

Potom su shvatili da je otprilike gotovo svako u gradu

was living in a palace with spacious patios

živeo u palati sa prostranim tremom

and subfloor drainages,

i podzemnom kanalizacijom,

gorgeous murals on the walls.

prelepim muralima na zidovima.

But we shouldn't get carried away.

Međutim, ne bi trebalo da se zanosimo.

None of the societies that I've been describing

Nijedno od ovih društava koja sam opisivao

was perfectly egalitarian.

nije bilo savršeno egalitarno.

But then we might also remember that fifth-century Athens,

Međutim, takođe bi trebalo da se setimo da je Atina iz petog veka,

which we look to as the birthplace of democracy,

koju posmatramo kao mesto rođenja demokratije,

was also a militaristic society founded on chattel slavery,

takođe bila militarističko društvo osnovano na robovlasništvu,

where women were completely excluded from politics.

gde su žene bile u potpunosti izuzete iz politike.

So maybe by comparison,

Pa, možda u poređenju,

somewhere like Teotihuacan was not doing so badly

nekim mestima poput Teotivakana nije išlo toliko loše

at keeping the genie of inequality in its bottle.

u čuvanju duha nejednakosti u njegovoj boci.

But maybe we can just forget about all that, we can look away.

Možda ipak možemo da zaboravimo sve to i odvratimo pogled.

Perhaps all of these things I'm talking about are basically outliers.

Možda su sve ove stvari o kojima govorim prosto izuzeci.

Maybe we can still keep our familiar story of civilization intact.

Možda i dalje možemo da zadržimo našu poznatu priču o civilizaciji netaknutom.

And after all,

Naposletku,

if cities without rulers were really such a common thing in human history,

ako su gradovi bez vladara zaista bili tako uobičajena stvar u ljudskoj istoriji,

why didn't Cortéz and Pizarro and all the other conquistadors

zašto Kortez i Pizaro i svi ostali konkistadori

find any when they began their invasion of the Americas?

nisu otrkili nijedan kada su započeli invaziju Amerika?

Why did they find only Moctezuma and Atahualpa

Zašto su jedino našli Montezumu i Atahualpu

lording it over their empires?

kako gospodare svojim carstvima?

Except that's not true either.

Samo što ni to nije tačno.

Actually, the city where Hernan Cortéz found his military allies,

Zapravo, grad u kome je Ernan Kortez pronašao vojne saveznike,

the ones who enabled his successful assault

one koji su mu omogućili uspešan napad

on the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlán,

na astečki glavni grad Tenočtitlan,

was exactly one such city without rulers:

upravo je bio takav grad bez vladara:

an indigenous republic by the name of Tlaxcala,

domorodačka republika nazvana Tlaskala,

governed by an urban parliament,

kojom je vladao gradski parlament,

which had some pretty interesting initiation rituals

koji je imao prilično zanimljive rituale za inicijaciju

for would-be politicians.

budućih političara.

They'd be periodically whipped

Periodično bi ih šibali

and subject to public abuse by their constituents

i podvrgavali javnom zlostavljanju od strane njihovih glasača

to sort of break down their egos and remind them who's really in charge.

kako bi im na neki način slomili ego i podsetili ih ko je zaista na vlasti.

It's a little bit different from what we expect of our politicians today.

Malčice je drugačije od onoga što danas očekujemo od političara.

And archaeologists, by the way, have also worked at this place Tlaxcala,

A arheolozi su, usput, takođe radili na ovom mestu Tlaskala,

excavating the remains of the pre-conquest city,

iskopavajući ostatke grada pre osvajanja,

i ono što su tamo otkrili uistinu je izvanredno.

and what they found there is really remarkable.

Again, the most impressive architecture is not temples and palaces.

Ponovo, najimpresivnija arhitektura nisu hramovi i palate.

It's just the well-appointed residences of ordinary citizens

To su prosto dobro opremljene rezidencije običnih građana

arrayed along these grand terraces overlooking district plazas.

nanizane duž tih velikih terasa sa pogledom na okružne trgove.

And it's not just the history of cities

I ne radi se samo o istoriji gradova

that modern archaeological science is turning on its head.

koje moderna arheološka nauka izvrće naglavačke.

We also know now that the history of human societies

Takođe znamo da istorija ljudskih društava

before the coming of agriculture

pre pojave zemljoradnje

is just nothing like what we once imagined.

uopšte nije ni nalik onome kako smo je nekad zamišljali.

Far from this idea of people living all the time

Daleko je od te zamisli o ljudima koji sve vreme žive

in tiny bands of hunter-gatherers,

u malenim grupama lovaca sakupljača,

actually, what we see these days

zapravo, ovih dana vidimo

is evidence for a really wild variety of social experimentation

dokaze za uistinu širok dijapazon društvenog eksperimentisanja

before the coming of farming.

pre nastanka zemljoradnje.

In Africa,

U Africi,

50,000 years ago,

pre 50 000 godina,

hunter-gatherers were already creating huge networks,

lovci sakupljači su već stvarali ogromne mreže,

social networks, covering large parts of the continent.

društvene mreže, koje su pokrivale velike delove kontinenta.

In Ice Age Europe, 25,000 years ago,

U Evropi tokom ledenog doba, pre 25 000 godina,

we see evidence of individuals singled out for special grand burials,

vidimo dokaze pojedinaca koji su izdvojeni radi specijalnih veličanstvenih sahrana,

their bodies suffused with ornamentation,

tela su im prekrivena ukrasima,

weapons and even what looked like regalia.

oružjem, pa čak i nečim što liči na počasti dostojanstvenika.

We see public buildings constructed on the bones and tusks of woolly mammoth.

Vidimo javne zgrade izgrađene od kostiju i kljova runastog mamuta.

And around 11,000 years ago,

A pre oko 11 000 godina,

back in the Middle East, where I started,

nazad na Bliskom istoku, odakle sam počeo,

hunter-gatherers constructed enormous stone temples

lovci sakupljači su gradili ogromne kamene hramove

at a place called Göbekli Tepe in eastern Turkey.

u mestu koje se naziva Gobekli Tepe u istočnoj Turskoj.

In North America,

U Severnoj Americi,

long before the coming of maize farming,

mnogo pre nastanka uzgoja kukuruza,

indigenous populations created the massive earthworks of poverty point

domorodačke populacije su pravile ogromne zemljane strukture Paverti pointa

in Louisiana,

u Luizijani,

capable of hosting hunter gatherer publics in their thousands.

koje su mogle da ugoste na hiljade lovaca sakupljača.

And then Japan, again, long before the arrival of rice farming,

A potom Japan, opet, mnogo pre pojave uzgoja pirinča,

the storehouses of Sannai Maruyama could already hold great surpluses

skladišta Sanaj Marujama su i tada mogla da čuvaju velike viškove

of wild plant foods.

hrane od divljih biljaka.

Now what do all these details amount to?

Na šta se svi ovi detalji svode?

What does it all mean?

Šta sve to znači?

Well, at the very least, I'd suggest

Pa, u najmanju ruku, predložio bih

it's really a bit far-fetched these days to cling to this notion

da je zaista malčice nategnuto ovih dana držati se pretpostavke

that the invention of agriculture meant a departure from some egalitarian Eden.

da je izum zemljoradnje značio udaljavanje od nekakvog egalitarnog raja.

Or to cling to the idea that small-scale societies

Ili se držati ideje da su društva manjih razmera

are especially likely to be egalitarian,

naročito sklona egalitarnosti,

while large-scale ones must necessarily have kings,

dok ona većih razmera nužno moraju da imaju kraljeve,

presidents and top-down structures of management.

predsednike i hijerarhijske strukture upravljanja.

And there are also some contemporary implications.

A imamo i neke savremene implikacije.

Take, for example, the commonplace notion

Uzmite, na primer, opšteprihvaćenu pretpostavku

that participatory democracy is somehow natural in a small community.

da je participativna demokratija nekako prirođena manjim zajednicama.

Or perhaps an activist group,

Ili možda grupi aktivista,

but couldn't possibly have a scale up for anything like a city,

ali ne bi uopšte mogla da se prenese na bilo kakve veće razmere poput grada,

a nation or even a region.

nacije ili čak regiona.

Well, actually, the evidence of human history,

Pa, zapravo, dokazi iz ljudske istorije,

if we're prepared to look at it,

ako smo spremni da ih sagledamo,

suggests the opposite.

nagoveštavaju suprotno.

If cities and regional confederacies,

Ako su gradovi i regionalne konfederacije

held together mostly by consensus and cooperation

koji su se držali zajedno uglavnom konsenzusom i saradnjom

existed thousands of years ago,

postojali pre više hiljada godina,

who's to stop us creating them again today

ko nas sprečava da ih danas ponovo stvorimo

with technologies that allow us to overcome the friction

sa tehnologijama koje nam omogućavaju da prevaziđemo prepreke

of distance and numbers?

u vidu udaljenosti i brojeva?

Perhaps it's not too late to begin learning from all this new evidence

Možda nije prekasno da počnemo da učimo iz svih ovih novih dokaza

of the human past,

o ljudskoj prošlosti,

even to begin imagining

čak i da počnemo da zamišljamo

what other kinds of civilization we might create

kakve bismo drugačije vidove civilizacije mogli da stvorimo

if we can just stop telling ourselves

kada bismo samo prestali da govorimo sebi

that this particular world is the only one possible.

da je baš ovaj svet jedini mogući.

Thank you very much.

Mnogo vam hvala.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)