How do we find dignity at work? | Roy Bahat and Bryn Freedman

75,634 views ・ 2019-03-07

TED


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Bryn Freedman: You're a guy whose company funds these AI programs and invests.
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So why should we trust you to not have a bias
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and tell us something really useful for the rest of us
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about the future of work?
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Roy Bahat: Yes, I am.
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And when you wake up in the morning and you read the newspaper
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and it says, "The robots are coming, they may take all our jobs,"
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as a start-up investor focused on the future of work,
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our fund was the first one to say
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artificial intelligence should be a focus for us.
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So I woke up one morning and read that and said,
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"Oh, my gosh, they're talking about me. That's me who's doing that."
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And then I thought: wait a minute.
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If things continue,
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then maybe not only will the start-ups in which we invest struggle
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because there won't be people to have jobs
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to pay for the things that they make and buy them,
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but our economy and society might struggle, too.
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And look, I should be the guy who sits here and tells you,
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"Everything is going to be fine. It's all going to work out great.
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Hey, when they introduced the ATM machine,
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years later, there's more tellers in banks."
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It's true.
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And yet, when I looked at it, I thought, "This is going to accelerate.
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And if it does accelerate, there's a chance the center doesn't hold."
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But I figured somebody must know the answer to this;
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there are so many ideas out there.
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And I read all the books, and I went to the conferences,
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and at one point, we counted more than 100 efforts to study the future of work.
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And it was a frustrating experience,
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because I'd hear the same back-and-forth over and over again:
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"The robots are coming!"
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And then somebody else would say,
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"Oh, don't worry about that, they've always said that and it turns out OK."
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Then somebody else would say,
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"Well, it's really about the meaning of your job, anyway."
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And then everybody would shrug and go off and have a drink.
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And it felt like there was this Kabuki theater of this discussion,
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where nobody was talking to each other.
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And many of the people that I knew and worked with in the technology world
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were not speaking to policy makers;
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the policy makers were not speaking to them.
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And so we partnered with a nonpartisan think tank NGO called New America
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to study this issue.
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And we brought together a group of people,
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including an AI czar at a technology company
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and a video game designer
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and a heartland conservative
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and a Wall Street investor
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and a socialist magazine editor --
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literally, all in the same room; it was occasionally awkward --
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to try to figure out what is it that will happen here.
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The question we asked was simple.
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It was: What is the effect of technology on work going to be?
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And we looked out 10 to 20 years,
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because we wanted to look out far enough that there could be real change,
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but soon enough that we weren't talking about teleportation or anything like that.
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And we recognized --
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and I think every year we're reminded of this in the world --
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that predicting what's going to happen is hard.
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So instead of predicting, there are other things you can do.
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You can try to imagine alternate possible futures,
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which is what we did.
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We did a scenario-planning exercise,
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and we imagined cases where no job is safe.
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We imagined cases where every job is safe.
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And we imagined every distinct possibility we could.
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And the result, which really surprised us,
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was when you think through those futures and you think what should we do,
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the answers about what we should do actually turn out to be the same,
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no matter what happens.
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And the irony of looking out 10 to 20 years into the future is,
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you realize that the things we want to act on
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are actually already happening right now.
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The automation is right now, the future is right now.
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BF: So what does that mean, and what does that tell us?
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If the future is now, what is it that we should be doing,
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and what should we be thinking about?
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RB: We have to understand the problem first.
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And so the data are that as the economy becomes more productive
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and individual workers become more productive,
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their wages haven't risen.
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If you look at the proportion of prime working-age men,
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in the United States at least,
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who work now versus in 1960,
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we have three times as many men not working.
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And then you hear the stories.
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I sat down with a group of Walmart workers and said,
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"What do you think about this cashier, this futuristic self-checkout thing?"
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They said, "That's nice, but have you heard about the cash recycler?
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That's a machine that's being installed right now,
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and is eliminating two jobs at every Walmart right now."
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And so we just thought, "Geez. We don't understand the problem."
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And so we looked at the voices that were the ones that were excluded,
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which is all of the people affected by this change.
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And we decided to listen to them,
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sort of "automation and its discontents."
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And I've spent the last couple of years doing that.
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I've been to Flint, Michigan, and Youngstown, Ohio,
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talking about entrepreneurs, trying to make it work
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in a very different environment from New York or San Francisco
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or London or Tokyo.
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I've been to prisons twice
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to talk to inmates about their jobs after they leave.
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I've sat down with truck drivers to ask them about the self-driving truck,
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with people who, in addition to their full-time job,
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care for an aging relative.
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And when you talk to people,
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there were two themes that came out loud and clear.
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The first one was that people are less looking for more money
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or get out of the fear of the robot taking their job,
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and they just want something stable.
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They want something predictable.
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So if you survey people and ask them what they want out of work,
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for everybody who makes less than 150,000 dollars a year,
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they'll take a more stable and secure income, on average,
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over earning more money.
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And if you think about the fact that
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not only for all of the people across the earth who don't earn a living,
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but for those who do,
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the vast majority earn a different amount from month to month
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and have an instability,
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all of a sudden you realize,
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"Wait a minute. We have a real problem on our hands."
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And the second thing they say, which took us a longer time to understand,
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is they say they want dignity.
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And that concept of self-worth through work
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emerged again and again and again in our conversations.
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BF: So, I certainly appreciate this answer.
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But you can't eat dignity,
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you can't clothe your children with self-esteem.
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So, what is that, how do you reconcile --
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what does dignity mean,
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and what is the relationship between dignity and stability?
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RB: You can't eat dignity. You need stability first.
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And the good news is,
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many of the conversations that are happening right now
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are about how we solve that.
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You know, I'm a proponent of studying guaranteed income,
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as one example,
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conversations about how health care gets provided
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and other benefits.
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Those conversations are happening,
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and we're at a time where we must figure that out.
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It is the crisis of our era.
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And my point of view after talking to people
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is that we may do that,
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and it still might not be enough.
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Because what we need to do from the beginning is understand
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what is it about work that gives people dignity,
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so they can live the lives that they want to live.
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And so that concept of dignity is ...
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it's difficult to get your hands around,
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because when many people hear it -- especially, to be honest, rich people --
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they hear "meaning."
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They hear "My work is important to me."
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And again, if you survey people and you ask them,
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"How important is it to you that your work be important to you?"
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only people who make 150,000 dollars a year or more
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say that it is important to them that their work be important.
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BF: Meaning, meaningful?
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RB: Just defined as, "Is your work important to you?"
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Whatever somebody took that to mean.
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And yet, of course dignity is essential.
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We talked to truck drivers who said,
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"I saw my cousin drive, and I got on the open road and it was amazing.
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And I started making more money than people who went to college."
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Then they'd get to the end of their thought and say something like,
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"People need their fruits and vegetables in the morning,
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and I'm the guy who gets it to them."
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We talked to somebody who, in addition to his job, was caring for his aunt.
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He was making plenty of money.
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At one point we just asked,
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"What is it about caring for your aunt? Can't you just pay somebody to do it?"
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He said, "My aunt doesn't want somebody we pay for.
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My aunt wants me."
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So there was this concept there of being needed.
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If you study the word "dignity," it's fascinating.
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It's one of the oldest words in the English language, from antiquity.
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And it has two meanings:
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one is self-worth,
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and the other is that something is suitable, it's fitting,
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meaning that you're part of something greater than yourself,
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and it connects to some broader whole.
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In other words, that you're needed.
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BF: So how do you answer this question,
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this concept that we don't pay teachers,
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and we don't pay eldercare workers,
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and we don't pay people who really care for people
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and are needed, enough?
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RB: Well, the good news is, people are finally asking the question.
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So as AI investors, we often get phone calls
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from foundations or CEOs and boardrooms saying,
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"What do we do about this?"
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And they used to be asking,
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"What do we do about introducing automation?"
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And now they're asking, "What do we do about self-worth?"
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And they know that the employees who work for them
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who have a spouse who cares for somebody,
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that dignity is essential to their ability to just do their job.
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I think there's two kinds of answers:
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there's the money side of just making your life work.
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That's stability. You need to eat.
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And then you think about our culture more broadly,
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and you ask: Who do we make into heroes?
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And, you know, what I want is to see the magazine cover
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that is the person who is the heroic caregiver.
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Or the Netflix series that dramatizes the person
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who makes all of our other lives work so we can do the things we do.
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Let's make heroes out of those people.
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That's the Netflix show that I would binge.
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And we've had chroniclers of this before --
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Studs Terkel,
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the oral history of the working experience in the United States.
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And what we need is the experience of needing one another
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and being connected to each other.
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Maybe that's the answer for how we all fit as a society.
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And the thought exercise, to me, is:
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if you were to go back 100 years and have people --
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my grandparents, great-grandparents, a tailor, worked in a mine --
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they look at what all of us do for a living and say, "That's not work."
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We sit there and type and talk, and there's no danger of getting hurt.
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And my guess is that if you were to imagine 100 years from now,
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we'll still be doing things for each other.
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We'll still need one another.
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And we just will think of it as work.
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The entire thing I'm trying to say
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is that dignity should not just be about having a job.
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Because if you say you need a job to have dignity,
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which many people say,
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the second you say that, you say to all the parents
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and all the teachers and all the caregivers
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that all of a sudden,
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because they're not being paid for what they're doing,
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it somehow lacks this essential human quality.
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To me, that's the great puzzle of our time:
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Can we figure out how to provide that stability throughout life,
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and then can we figure out how to create an inclusive,
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not just racially, gender, but multigenerationally inclusive --
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I mean, every different human experience included --
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in this way of understanding how we can be needed by one another.
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BF: Thank you. RB: Thank you.
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BF: Thank you very much for your participation.
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(Applause)
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