Mastering Small Talk with Rob Rudge (Business English Podcast)

Hello, and welcome to The English Like A Native Podcast, the listening

resource for intermediate to advanced-level English learners.

My name is Anna and today I'm joined by a very special guest - a fellow podcasting,

YouTubing, online English teacher.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm pleased to introduce Rob from

the Business English Podcast.

Now he is a business English communication coach and someone that

you should be tuning into if you're hoping to make a good impression

in an English speaking workplace.

Hello, Rob.

Good morning.

Hi, Anna.

Hi, Anna.

Thanks for having me on, really appreciate it.

You're very welcome.

How are you today?

Very well, very well.

What about yourself?

Yeah, I'm all right.

I was just saying before this podcast, I've just finished my coffee

and I'm waiting for it to kick in.

Are you a morning coffee drinker?

I am two in already, so, I'm starting to feel the effects,

you know, coming up as they say.

Oh really?

I limit myself to one coffee a day these days.

I will have a decaf later in the afternoon because I enjoy the bitterness and I

match it with a little bit of sweetness.

So, I tend to have a little biscotti or a piece of dark chocolate with it.

Yeah.

Do you have your coffee with milk or black?

I have it with milk, but no sugar.

I was going to say when you said sweetness, I thought are

you putting sugar in this?

Demerara or...

No, no.

I usually have coconut milk.

What about almonds or soy and any of the others?

No, so, if I run out of coconut milk, I will use some of the oat milk, if

we have like a barista oat milk in the house, I'll use some of that, but I

like the sweetness of coconut milk, I have a bit of a sweet tooth, you see.

Uh-huh.

So it keeps me on the straight and narrow, having a slightly sweet coffee,

keeps me away from the naughty treats.

Good.

Just take the edge off.

Yeah.

Rob, I want to start with a question.

Sure.

A completely random question.

If you had any superpower besides flying and time travel, because

everyone says, "I'd love to fly."

or "I'd love to time travel."

What would your superpower be?"

I think, I would like to breathe underwater.

That would be something very interesting to me, it'd allow me to get down into

the sea, go and see some cool things.

I think we know more about the surface of the Moon than we do the bottom

of the ocean, so I think that would be quite interesting to go and see.

That's very true.

Have you done any scuba diving or snorkelling?

I've done a little bit, little bit around the Caribbean, and unfortunately in

some of the quarries in the UK, which isn't the same experience, surprisingly

. No.

And, fairly cold, I would say, a little bit colder than the Caribbean as well,

which means you have to dive in a hood.

Was it a dry suit or a wet suit?

I had a wet suit on, just the organisation I was with at the time only had wet suits.

So, that's what we used.

Yeah.

Cause often in UK waters, because of the cold, they make you dive with a

dry suit, which keeps you dry and warm.

I've never done any diving in UK waters.

I've done it in Egypt.

Oh, wow.

Nice.

And in swimming pools.

I did my training...

training in a UK pool.

I think, did I go scuba diving anywhere else?

I feel like I have, but I can't remember.

What was it like in Egypt?

Was it, you know, did you need a wet suit there?

Yes.

Yes, wet suit and it was lovely.

I saw some amazing things.

I definitely recommend diving in Egypt.

They've got some interesting shipwrecks to go and explore and some nice coral, lots

of interesting aquatic life to check out.

Nice.

Yeah.

My partner did some of the more advanced dives.

I was quite new to it, but he went diving with some sharks as well.

They took a boat out to the place where they were going to dive and they

weren't specifically looking for sharks.

They knew there were sharks potentially in the area.

And the instructor jumped in first to just check out everything was

safe for everyone to come in.

He jumped in and then didn't surface.

He disappeared for quite a few minutes and everyone was concerned.

Eventually, he comes back up and says,

"Sorry, guys.

I literally jumped on top of a shark when I jumped in."

So, the best thing to do with sharks is to go down because if you're

above them, they think you're a seal and they're more likely to attack

and they attack from underneath.

So, you go down and you stay still and you keep your eyes on them.

And so he jumped onto this shark and then had to stay low in the water until

the shark lost interest and disappeared.

So, then he could come back up and say,

"Okay, you can come in now."

That's incredible.

Yeah.

I think if that were me on the boat and he said, I just jumped onto a shark.

I'd be like,

"No, I'm going to stay on the boat."

"I'm good for today.

Yeah, I'm good for today."

That'd look great on the CV though, wouldn't it?

It's like, what do you do for a job?

Well, I'm an underwater shark wrestler.

You know, that's what I do.

Yeah.

So, breathing underwater would be a great skill because when you go

underwater with scuba gear, my initial reaction to it was surprise because

of the noise and all the bubbles.

I feel like if you haven't done any scuba diving, you think that scuba

diving will be a very serene, peaceful experience, but then it's like...

Darth Vader all the way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, actually being able to just breathe without that gear would be amazing.

I think.

Yeah.

And you'd be able to do some incredible adventures.

Yes.

I was going to ask you, Anna, do you have a superpower?

Apart from being an ama-...

I'm a mum.

I think anyway.

Anyone who is able to keep children alive, that's the

superpower and function as well.

If I were to have a superpower, then I think I would love to know, I'm kind of

torn between having an insight into the future, so I could make good decisions,

or being able to know what people think.

Oh.

That, I think that would be a really...

That's dangerous!

You know, just being able to see a little bubble above people's heads to read their

thoughts, because I think being able to read people is a really good skill.

I think I'm quite good at reading a social situation and reading a room

and quite empathetic and understanding; my partner doesn't have the same

level of awareness as I do, and we notice it when we go out and I'm like,

"Do you realise you said that?

And you could see that this person was uncomfortable when you said that?

You didn't pick that up."

So, I think being able to actually see what people are thinking and understand,

it would just take away so many doubts and, you know, sometimes we feel

inhibited because we think the other person is thinking a certain thing.

It's not always the case.

So, just knowing the truth always would be quite...

That's a really good one.

Refreshing, I think refreshing.

Yeah, that's a really good one.

Have you seen the film, is it What Women Want?

with Mel Gibson?

And he has sort of this power where he can hear this.

Yeah, and it changes things for him, doesn't it?

It really does, it really does.

So yeah, very interesting superpower.

So, one superpower to consider might be the ability to make small talk.

Yeah.

Like, so, I think small talk is a surprisingly powerful skill to have.

Yeah, it is.

And it's interesting because not many people are very good at small talk.

It doesn't come naturally to many people.

Yeah.

But luckily it can be learned.

So, small talk is actually a pretty big deal and that's what we're

going to talk about today — how to make small talk in the right way.

So, small talk is like the unsung hero of our daily interactions, isn't it?

Yeah, but what is exactly small talk?

How could we define that?

That's a good question, and I'm glad you asked.

Imagine you're in a lift with somebody perhaps it's taking a really long

time, and you barely know them, but you manage to strike up a conversation.

You're maybe talking about the weather, or you're talking about

the latest episode of The Crown, or something that you're watching on TV.

Well, that's small talk at its finest.

It might seem trivial.

It might seem like nothing, but it actually plays a really vital role in

building connections with other people.

I like to imagine it as a bridge that helps us to cross over

from being complete strangers to becoming friends or colleagues.

Now it's closely related to first impressions and we know that

first impressions really count.

You actually have quite a nice saying I heard on one of your podcasts,

Rob, about first impressions.

Yes, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression, and

it's completely true, I think.

Yeah, so, you only get that one chance, that first impression is lasting, so,

you have to get it right the first time.

So, what you say to break the ice really matters.

Small talk lays the groundwork, so to speak.

It's how we signal to other people that we're friendly and approachable or not.

So, we really let people know who we are or at least we give an

impression of who we are with those first few words and interactions.

So, Rob, when would small talk be useful?

This is a great question.

I think, it's one that goes around a lot, especially in sort of learners of English.

And I would say, you know, point blank, this is a spectrum of situations all

the way from coffee shop on one side all the way down to being in the boardroom

or interview or like you said, you know just waiting for an elevator or a lift.

So, we can use small talk in professional situations then.

Yeah, absolutely.

And if you don't use small talk in a professional situation, especially

when dealing with countries or cultures that have it in their language, for

example, the UK, or the other sort of English-speaking nations, if you

just launch straight into business, so to speak, things really feel sort

of uncomfortable, disjointed or a lot of pressure to respond and get down

to business straight away, which, you know, doesn't quite feel right.

I think for us Brits, at least.

What about yourself?

As Brits, we're very much indirect, aren't we?

We nothing, anything direct is considered a little rude or too abrupt.

And so everything has to be done in a soft and gentle way.

I think we're deemed as a nation of being like head down, very

cold, don't give eye contact, but actually we all need a cuddle.

We all need a hug.

That's it.

Before we have any kind of interaction.

We need to know we're safe.

We need to know it's a relaxed environment.

And so, that small talk, even in a professional environment, even if

it's something that's going to be, you know, a tough negotiation and

you walk into the boardroom knowing that you're probably going to have

disagreements with the people that you're about to negotiate with.

There's still that element of

"Hi, good morning.

How was your journey in today?

Yeah.

The trains are a nightmare, aren't they?"

You know, that kind of chit-chat back and forth saying,

"We're both human.

You're safe in this environment.

We can at least be civil with one another."

Yeah, no, absolutely agreed.

Yeah, it's about this sort of relationship building, this sort of pressing the

flesh, as they say, shaking hands and developing that relationship, especially

if you're looking for new business, new opportunities, interviews, things like

that, you know, getting to know the other person before launching in, it is

something that I think Brits do very well.

But it's always the culture that is used to small talk, when it doesn't

happen, it feels very uncomfortable.

I was out in Eastern Europe, and doing some English work with some professionals

and I've been on for hours, you know, how it is teaching and you're pretty

exhausted, you know, it's over, it's done.

You're sort of closing down the laptop and this woman walked up

to me at the end and she said,

"Rob, you look really tired."

And I thought,

"Oh, well, yes, I guess I am exhausted."

But it was very direct, you know, like you said earlier on, about the

Brits needing something a little bit smoother, a little bit more gentle.

And if it is too direct and it does feel slightly uncomfortable, but I guess this

was an element of small talk, so to speak.

I think, when dealing with people from different places, different cultures, I

do think that personally, we have to all just have a moment of thinking, we're all

different, so, don't take everything so personally, like you have to allow them a

little bit of wiggle room to be different.

So, I think I've learned a lot about myself and others by being in

this particular niche, working with people from different countries.

I used to take offence at things so quickly, depending on how I

was approached or things that were said, you know, the unsolicited

marriage proposals, things like that.

Nice.

Cool.

I used to get really upset about it.

And irate about the things people would say and how they would say them and...

and now I realise, oh, actually we just come from different places; things are

done differently and they maybe don't understand my culture so, we can be

open and talk about this and hopefully they'll understand and it'll be fine.

Yeah.

So, I think everyone has to have that awareness.

So, have you ever experienced a point where small talk wasn't

done in the most optimal way?

A long time ago when I was kind of new to the YouTubing space I used to go to lots

of events at the YouTube headquarters, which is in King's Cross in London.

And I met up with a friend before one of these events, having coffee

in a coffee shop and they had a couple of other friends joining

them, people I didn't know.

And at one point I'm kind of sat left alone with one of these

friends of my friend, and we hadn't spoken before that point.

And, he turns to me and he says,

"Oh, so, Anna, is it?"

I said,

"Yeah, yeah, Anna."

He said,

"What are you doing in London then?"

And I said,

"Oh, I'm going to an event at the YouTube headquarters.

It's not far from here.

I'll be heading off in about 20 minutes."

And his reaction was,

"Oh no, you've got to spend the day with a bunch of YouTubers, that sucks, poor you."

And I was obviously a bit shocked because he had gone straight into sharing his

personal negative opinion of YouTubers without ascertaining or working out

who I was or whether I was a YouTuber or not, he just assumed I wasn't.

Okay.

And so rather than putting him straight instantly I was a bit taken aback

by it and I was instantly offended.

So, I just let him dig the hole the little deeper and I said,

"Oh, you don't like YouTubers then."

And he carried on, no, he didn't catch on at all.

"No, no, I don't like YouTubers.

They're all so annoying.

They're all so full of themselves."

And just keeps digging and digging and digging.

And then eventually I said,

"Well, you don't like me then.

I'm a YouTuber."

And then he was obviously very apologetic and a bit taken aback by

his own, faux pas, should we say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Giving him enough rope to hang himself with, this sort of thing.

It was a little mean, you know, the mistake that he made was to launch

into sharing his negative opinions of a whole group of people without

knowing who he was talking to first.

And I've done this myself.

I've very quickly shared my opinions without knowing who I am talking to.

Yeah, absolutely.

And in doing so, offended people because they hold a very different opinion to me.

And so I think it's always like one of the rules for small talk should be to

keep those negative opinions to yourself.

Like you said about the balancing of, being understanding of everybody's

culture, you know, especially when you're playing at the international

level, which is normally why people speak English is that they're in that

international arena, is really hedging your conversation in a way that is, you

know, palatable that is acceptable for everybody instead of really sticking

your flag in the ground over to one side.

And as you said about the faux pas, I mean, the two mega poor choices to make

when making small talk, I would say would be, politics or/and religion.

Yeah.

What do you think?

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

If somebody makes a really bold statement in the first few lines of meeting me about

their political beliefs or, you know, making a judgement from a political point

of view, then what happens is if it's at odds with what I believe, I instantly

make a judgement, you know, we all do, even if we try not to be judgemental.

I instantly make a judgement about what that person must be like, what their

general beliefs are and everything that's related to that and that might

make me decide instantly, I'm not going to be friends or I can't be close

to, I don't align with this person and so, it can sour the relationship

before it's even had a chance to blossom, before we even had a chance to

explore, you know, whether there's any other things that we have in common.

So, politics also can lead to, like an argument, a negative interaction.

I'm very much an avoider of conflict.

I will just nod my head and go,

"Hmm okay, lovely."

And walk away.

But I think I'm in the minority.

I think many people would happily say I don't agree or, you know,

stand up for what they believe and argue with that person.

So, it's better to just avoid talking about politics and the same with

religion because it often leads to...

Religion is a very personal thing and people have very strong views,

beliefs about religion and it's just better to just leave it aside until

a point later in your relationship.

Yeah, definitely, a hundred percent agreed.

It's really worth taking on board that no matter how well you think you

know this person or the individuals with which you're conversing, that

you probably don't want to broach that subject unless you are...

like you said, unless you know them really well or have a personal

relationship with this individual.

I was training some non-native professionals working in London

about small talk and networking while they were working in the big city.

And it was all about, you know, avoid this, don't say that,

try using this as an idea.

And on the coffee break one of them came up to me and said,

"Great presentation so far, Rob.

Brilliant.

I'd love to know your ideas about Brexit."

And I said,

"You know, you've just heard me say, you know, this probably isn't a good

icebreaker or an opener, you know, consider using something else."

It is a trained skill, like we've mentioned earlier about small talk

being a trained or learned skill.

Yeah.

I think when you do ask questions like,

"What do you think about Brexit then?"

You're basically just laying down a landmine for the other person because if

I ask you that, and I don't know you at all, and you don't know me, and I ask,

"What are your thoughts on this?"

You then have to think,

"Well, what are your thoughts?"

Am I about to say something that's completely at odds with you?

Are we about to have an argument?

Or are you going to dislike me if I say the wrong thing?

So, it's just not a very kind thing to do.

I think, it's better to just leave those questions to one side.

And then the other thing, particularly in the UK is talking about money.

Yeah, I agree.

I don't know if it's different in other countries, but asking someone

like how much they earn or how much their house costs or, you know, how

much anything costs, if it's something that was obviously a big purchase.

I think it's just not the done thing in this country, is it?

It makes people uncomfortable.

That's right.

Real sticky situation and you get embroiled into disclosing some things that

are actually quite personal and if you give a third party something, they have

that then and it's no longer personal and then where do you put those barriers in

place to, to safeguard against, you know, some other sensitive topics, for example.

So yeah, it's a really interesting one.

Which is why when you're in a job interview, and this, this question

often does come up, doesn't it?

What are your salary expectations for this role?

It's an awful question.

And you might have had it as well as a self-employed kind of entrepreneur

when third parties approach you to come and do a collaboration or

a sponsorship, they'd say to you, we're interested in working with you.

Oh, great, okay.

Give me some details about the collaboration and I'll give you details.

And then they'll say to you even though they approached you.

Yeah.

"What are your expectations for a fee?

Or "what would you expect as a fee for this?"

And you're like,

"Well what's your, what's your budget?"

I'm not gonna give you a figure because I might be lowballing myself.

I might undercut my value if you are paying other people more money.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Like you said, that you're a bit of a minefield.

You know, if you're talking about money, what do you say?

What can't you say?

Lowballing yourself, especially for the self employed, the entrepreneurs

out there as well, you know, money.

So, definitely don't ask someone in a, like if you're in a

networking event or a conference,

"Oh, that's a great job.

You're doing a great job for a great company.

How much do you earn?"

Like, that's a terrible question.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

How much do you earn?

How much did you make last year?

Yeah, it's pretty forward I would say.

And you know the other one that, you know, really sort of causes awkward silences

and awkward moments could be humour.

Just because something is funny in your culture, it may not translate

that well, in a small talk situation.

Absolutely.

I remember I was doing some networking in Europe and, one of the guys that

we were training, immediately opened with this joke about ball bearings,

these little steel ball bearings and it was only about 30 seconds long, but

he could not get the punch line out.

He was crying with laughter and I had no idea it didn't translate at all.

And he's reduced to tears trying to tell me this joke and

it was very awkward actually.

So...

yeah, humour.

Oh my goodness.

My goodness.

Do you have an experience of this?

I can't think of a specific occasion, but there have definitely been times

when people I don't know very well in a social setting have made a

joke that's perhaps been a little bit edgy, a bit controversial.

And in this country, we make fun of people and we make fun of ourselves and

you know, a lot of the comedians that I do find funny, like Ricky Gervais.

Ricky Gervais makes some appalling jokes.

If you saw them written down, he makes jokes about things that just

shouldn't ever be joked about, but he does it in a way that's funny and you

know what you're getting with him.

You turn up to one of his stand up gigs and you know that he's going

to be edgy and he's going to say things that are offensive, but funny.

So, if you don't know someone and they repeat a joke like that, whether it's,

you know, about animal cruelty or a specific group of people, then it's

very hard to know from a stranger if they are just being funny or if they

actually hold sexist or racist views based on the joke that they made.

So, it's a dangerous road to go down making jokes and often British

humour is very different, I think, to other cultures, you know, our dry

humour, our sarcasm, and so I think it wouldn't translate very well generally.

So, it's best to just try not to be funny.

Just be nice.

Yeah.

Try not to be funny.

Just nice.

Yeah.

That's great advice.

I think.

Yeah.

So, humour strike that one off the list as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think the last one to mention about things to avoid is personal questions.

Yeah.

I often get the, "Are you married?"

question.

I don't know.

Do you get this?

Occasionally, yes.

It's like,

"Are you married?"

And you're thinking, well, not sure how this really feeds

into the overall conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially, so I mostly get it in the sphere that I work in as a teacher.

And I'm taken aback by it.

You know, people will approach me and happy to be open and talk to

them and offer them advice, even though it's come from nowhere.

"Hi, Anna.

Can I ask you a question?"

"Yeah, of course."

And then we have a little back and forth and then they say,

"Are you married?"

And you're like,

"What has this got to do with anything, you know, that you need to know?"

So, I think asking personal questions or sometimes people

comment or ask me about my age.

I get that often or my weight.

"How much do you weigh?"

I think things like that, you just don't know.

What a strange question!

Yeah.

You don't know what people feel insecure about.

And so I may have had an eating disorder.

I don't, I haven't, I've always had a very healthy, too healthy

a relationship with food.

But I may have had an eating disorder in the past.

Maybe I was anorexic at one point and I struggled to eat.

I didn't like food.

And now I've managed to get to a healthy weight and beat my anorexia.

And then if you mention anything about my weight or anything about the way my

body looks, you could trigger something really bad in me that makes me feel very

self conscious and could set something off, but it certainly wouldn't set

up our relationship in a good way.

There was a time when I was having, my hair prepared for a wig, for a show.

Right.

And I had a different lady doing my hair this one day, so my normal kind

of makeup artist was off, and this lady, they're called wiggies, people

who come in and prepare you for a wig.

Wiggies.

Wiggies.

Right.

So, this wiggie came in, and I'd never met her before, and

she, had a speech impediment.

She had a very strong lisp.

Now I am an expert with voice, and I've fixed a lot of speech impediments in the

past with people from stutters and lisps.

And as soon as I heard her, I was instantly interested because I was like,

"Oh, I can help you."

And I instantly assumed that she had a problem with her lisp

and she would want to fix it.

That was my assumption.

And so, rather than just keeping it to myself, one of the first

things I said to her was,

"Ah, that's interesting.

You have a lisp."

She was evidently very, very upset about the fact that I pointed it out.

And I read the situation straight away and thought, oh,

I shouldn't have said anything.

And then there was just this really awkward, like 30 minutes of her doing

my hair, pulling a little harder than usual, you know, while I try

to backpedal and save the situation.

Brilliant.

Brilliant.

Awkward.

You didn't sit there in silence then?

No, I carried on trying to salvage the, you know, the burning building.

Right.

Talking about things, complimenting her on everything.

It was a very innocent question.

What I wanted to do was offer help, but I just assumed that she wanted it.

And that was a bad assumption to make.

So, I think the rule is don't mention, or ask personal questions

and don't mention anything personal.

So, those are the things that we should avoid.

So, just to recap those, we had politics, religion, we talked about money, about not

trying to be funny because humour doesn't always translate, and being too personal.

So, those are the things that you should avoid.

But what things could we talk about with a stranger when we're

striking up a conversation?

What's the safe zone?

Well, that is a great question.

Because when you're in that situation, you need to talk about something and I

would always recommend, and it's something that I do, I just use shared experience.

Is there anything that is taking place right now that we're both sharing

and both have an experience of?

Temperature of the room, how hot the coffee is, what was the last

speaker like, what's the venue like?

You know, any of that, something that we both can have some sort of

opinion about, and it's fairly neutral and sits sort of between us both.

Yeah.

What do you think about that?

Absolutely.

Do you remember what the first thing I said to you was?

When I first reached out to you,

Um.

It was a long time ago, now.

Well, no, honestly.

So, I think with you, I really liked your camera work.

So, I've been watching you on Instagram for a while.

Not like a stalker.

Right.

Like a researcher.

Researcher, yeah.

I'd been watching you and your filming style, your shorts, the style of your

shorts had changed and it looked like you'd upgraded your camera equipment.

And I just really liked it.

So, the first thing I said to you, even though I had no idea who you were or how

you would receive an unsolicited message, and the first thing I said to you was,

"Hey, I love the new style of your shorts.

Have you got a new camera?

It looks great."

And that instantly sparked quite a warm interaction between us because I started

with a compliment talking about something that we have a shared interest in,

which is filming and creating content.

Yeah, I mean that, I remember now, yes, that was it.

The interaction where you pay somebody a compliment, I think really opens

many, many doors, having a warm response or at least a warm interaction

really encourages the other party to step forward and open up as well.

Yeah.

So, starting with a compliment, but is there any like limit to that, is

there a point where paying someone a compliment can be taken in the

wrong way as an opening interaction.

Yeah, I think as we've been discussing already, referring back to the current

or the previous list of things like being too personal, like, you know,

what somebody really looks like or their weight, their age, you know, how tired

they are, perhaps, you know, being too personal, obviously that I wouldn't

push beyond that, but something that's fairly superficial on the surface,

about camera work, as you said.

Well, like if someone likes your briefcase or your bag,

"I love, I love that bag where did you get that from?

Do you find that works well for you?

Can you get your laptop in there?"

Something that's a little bit more external.

So, I've had it where people have come to me and I think maybe as a woman, I feel

a bit more sensitive to these things, but, if a guy that I don't know, maybe

at a conference comes up to me and says,

"That colour really suits you, you look really cute."

Or sometimes people use the word 'sexy' or something like that.

Yeah.

And as soon as I hear the word cute or sexy, I switch off and say,

"This is a predator.

Don't talk to that person."

Yeah.

Red flag.

What they might be doing is just trying to pay me a compliment of trying to

find a way to strike up a conversation.

And that's the only thing they can think of to say is that

"You look great.

That looks great on you."

But they've used the wrong words like 'sexy' or 'cute' or 'gorgeous',

anything like that about me.

Don't use it because I think you're being predatory.

So, it's better to compliment, if you're going to open that way, compliment

something that's outside of that person.

So, compliment their shoes or, you know, like I said, their bag or

the work that you've just seen them do, the talk that they just gave.

"Oh, that was a really great talk.

You seem like you've done this quite a few times before.

Have you?"

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anything like that can get a conversation going without offending the person

or being too, you know, creepy.

Yeah, yeah.

And once that ball is rolling with that external conversation, you know, about

your bag and things, you could then use the information that is then volunteered

to you to keep that conversation going, keep that conversation flowing.

Yeah, it's like being a detective, isn't it?

You're then listening for clues of things that you can latch onto.

Like if someone says,

"Oh yeah.

Oh thanks.

Yeah, I love this pen too.

I got it from an event at Apple."

"Oh, you went to the Apple event?"

"I think, I was invited to that but I couldn't make it."

Little things like that you can grab and see if you can find something

that you have in common that you can then comment on as well.

So, what other topics would be a safe thing to talk about?

Particularly being British, there's one thing that always springs to mind.

I've really tried to sit on this the entire podcast episode today.

I haven't asked you about the weather and I'm sort of questioning

my birthrights, right about now.

But, yes, I think one of the cliches that gets absolutely hammered is the weather.

What are your thoughts on that?

Well, you know, stereotypes are deemed to be bad because they tar an

entire group of people, but actually stereotypes don't come from nowhere.

Stereotypes always have a root in truth and it is true that the

stereotypical British conversation about the weather, it's real.

We do talk about the weather all the time, at least I do.

I don't know about you.

Yeah.

No, I'm guilty of that as well.

Talking about the weather, Rob, it has been horrific.

We actually had to postpone this recording because the weather

this week has been horrendous.

We had a little storm pass through and yesterday, I think it was

yesterday or the day before, we actually lost three fence panels.

Wow.

Okay.

Chasing them down the street.

Okay.

Well, no, they've just gone into the neighbour's garden.

Luckily the neighbour's not blown into ours.

The last time we had a big storm, which was around this time last year, we

actually lost a tree and two fence panels.

So, at least the trees didn't fall down this time because

that causes a lot of damage.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, the weather is always, and it's always a predictable answer, especially if

you're conversing with a Brit, you know,

"How's the weather?"

So, well, guess, you know, raining, windy, overcast, you know, something like this.

But it seems that we're always complaining about the weather in one form or another.

If it's beautiful weather, most of us are going,

"Oh gosh, it's so hot, isn't it?"

"Oh, I can't get away from it.

It's just stifling."

We complain if it's too hot and we also complain if it's too

cold, wet and windy, which it is most of the time, to be honest.

And I think it's because in this country, although we don't have extreme

weather in the way that, you know, other places around the world experience

like earthquakes and tornadoes.

Though we did have a tornado, didn't we?

In the north of England, took off like hundreds of roofs

last week there was a tornado.

Really?

Yeah.

I saw, you know, on Facebook, you know, on Facebook, they have

that 'mark yourself safe' thing.

Right.

So if there's a big, if there's a big emergency, then

you can mark yourself safe.

So, people on Facebook know that you escaped.

And I saw that one of my friends up in like Manchester had marked

themselves safe from the, like, I can't remember where it was, but mark

themselves safe from the tornado.

And I was like,

"This has got to be a joke.

This person's obviously been hacked.

We don't have tornadoes in this country."

And then my mum said,

"Oh, you know, David's..."

My brother who lives up in the north.

"David's doing okay.

He's still got his roof and he's okay.

He's safe from the tornado."

And I was like,

"What?"

There was actually a tornado crazy.

Wow.

Wow.

But yes, our weather here is, although not usually extreme, it is

unpredictable, and so, it's something that we always like to talk about.

And actually it's a good conversation starter if you're at a venue in a

professional environment and the weather's been generally quite bad,

but on this one occasion for this one day during an outdoor event, it's okay.

You could start with,

"We've been lucky with this weather today, haven't we?"

It's a good line.

Or the organisers have been quite unlucky today, haven't they?

You know, so it's a really good way to kind of initiate the conversation in a

very safe way, talking about the weather.

But if you are at an event, then that could also create an

opportunity for small talk, can't it?

You just talk about what's going on around you.

Can you give us some examples?

Yeah.

I mean, so, you know, being at an event, I think the weather is

just a really good starting point.

But if you feel a little bit more adventurous, you could start to probe

about if it's their first time here or how long they've been a part of the company

they work for; what they think of the coffee, you know, do they take sugar?

Do they not?

So milk, almond milk, coconut milk, all the rest of it.

So, you know, think things like this.

I think another cliche whether at a business event or just, you know,

down the coffee shop or waiting for a bus, is holidays, you know.

Have you had much time off this year, et cetera?

What do you think about that one?

Is this one of your go-to small talk lines?

This is always what I associate with the hairdressers.

So, with my sons, we play a lot of games.

I'm a very playful mum.

Especially when I want them to do things that they're not very good at doing.

Like brushing their teeth every night.

When they brush their teeth my three year old would come to

me with his toothbrush and say,

"I want to see the dentist."

Because at one point they were getting too fast at brushing their

teeth and they wouldn't really let me or my partner help them.

And so we introduced the dentist game and I'd be like,

"Hello!

Who's coming to sit in the dentist chair?"

And then they lie down on the floor.

I'm sitting down with my legs crossed and they put their head in my lap and

then I can brush their teeth really well.

And as I'm doing it, I always say,

"So, have you been on holiday this year?"

So, that's the dentist.

It's very convincing, very condensing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we do the hairdressers in when we're in the bath and I'm washing their hair and

that's always one that comes up as well.

Like,

"Been anywhere nice this year?"

Fantastic.

I'm going on holiday next week.

I'm going to the Bahamas.

Have you ever been?

And so, yeah, talking about travel is something that people

generally enjoy discussing.

Travel isn't usually a negative topic for anybody.

So, it's a safe one to bring up and people get excited when

talking about their adventures.

That's it.

That's it.

And I think that's a really key point just to sort of land on there is about talking

about their own personal experience.

You know, if you start to talk to somebody about them and what they enjoy

doing, like you said about the bag or the holidays, you see people just

light up, you know, they explode with conversation and it makes that small

talk piece, that getting to know one another much easier as they're sort of

just this waterfall of information then.

Yeah.

People just love talking about themselves, and so, you know, this

is one of the things I teach when talking about listening skills.

Really giving people a chance to talk and actually listening.

Listening to them in a way that's wanting to learn from them, rather than just

waiting for your chance to talk about yourself, but really listening to them

makes them feel valued and makes them feel heard and that makes them warm to

you more than they would other people.

I definitely can think of the people that I enjoy talking to.

And those are the people who I feel like they want to know about my life and they

want to know what's going on with me.

And those are the people that are my best friends and the people I enjoy spending

time with the most because they give me a platform to feel heard and so, giving

people a chance to talk about their personal experience is a really great way

to get started when talking to someone.

Like you said about not just waiting for your turn to speak.

I think that's just, it's such good advice, especially now as people

are on that hair trigger, just ready to jump in and say their bits.

It's like, listen to the other person and extract some of that

information and recycle it.

You know, recycling that information, as we talked about earlier, is really good.

And not closing down the conversation too early with like closed statements,

"Have you..", or "Do you..", because that doesn't really give the other party an

opportunity to really expand on their answer, you know, using open-ended

questions, "How long?", "Where?"

"Who?"

"How?"

"What?"

you know, all these sorts of words really help with the small talk.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you're talking there about like the difference between yes/no

questions and then open-ended questions.

So, just to really make it clear, a yes/no question is something like,

"Have you been here before?"

Or

"Did you enjoy that?"

That, you know, if someone is a good speaker and good at conversation,

then they'll take that yes/no question and they will expand.

"Yeah, I've been here before.

I actually really enjoyed it last time, but haven't enjoyed it as much this time.

What did you think?"

But potentially if someone is feeling, maybe they don't know you, so they're

a bit apprehensive or they're not very good at small talk, then they'll

take that yes/no question and just go,

"Yeah."

And then you just hit a brick wall and you have to then start digging

and it becomes more awkward to find something to keep the conversation going.

So, as you said, one of the better things to do is use open-ended

questions, which usually begin with Wh-?

"Why?", "Where?", "When?"

and "Who?"

"What did you think of the event this year?"

Things like that give them a chance to then, or they have to,

they can't just say "yes", "no".

They have to say a little bit more and that helps to keep things going.

Are there any other things that you would suggest to someone who's trying

to improve their small talk in terms of keeping the conversation flowing

once the questions have started and the responses are coming in?

How would someone keep it going?

Because there is sometimes that awkwardness, isn't there, where you

are brave enough to jump in with a good opening statement or question;

you get a positive response and then it just falls flat and you're like, I

can't think of anything else to say.

Yeah.

And then it's even more awkward almost because it's kind of

started and then stopped.

So, what advice would you give in that situation?

I think there are two places where you can go here.

The first one is, as we've mentioned before, about recycling the information.

If you volunteer a piece of information, then I'm going to be

looking for that and just sort of drill down into that a little bit more.

You know, you mentioned about scuba diving in Egypt and I

asked you how that was, you know,

"What did you see?"

And you saw shipwrecks, et cetera.

And also using those open-ended questions, I think a combination of those two things,

so recycled information, in addition to those open-ended questions really pulls

your audience, that third party into it.

And you can really enjoy the conversation as well.

It's a really good way of keeping it going and if the conversation dries up, you can

volunteer a piece of information and talk about how or why or when you did something

as well that reflects the speaker.

What about yourself?

I mean, do you have any pro tips?

So, I think always having like a toolbox of questions, general questions.

So, if we go back to the event scenario.

So, I've been to a lot of events at the ExCel in London and you do

strike up conversations with people.

So, if you strike up a conversation based on the coffee, so, you're

standing in line, you've just got your coffee, you can see someone

else has just got their coffee.

And you know that that person is someone that you want to talk to because

they work for a certain company and you want to strike a conversation.

And they're drinking the coffee, and you just have a sip of the coffee, and

your opening line is something like,

"What do you think of the coffee?"

Because you can see maybe they're not enjoying it.

And they might respond with,

"Oh, I've had better."

Yeah.

Then the conversation potentially stops.

And so what you then do is go to your toolbox and think,

"What else can I talk about?"

Well, we're in a shared environment, the coffee's not going anywhere.

So,

"Have you been to any of the talks today?

I hear that, Monica Lewinsky is doing the closing speech.

Are you going to go to that?"

And then that might open up the conversation more.

And then if that doesn't work, I might say something about the weather.

So, having like a set handful of questions that I can throw in and

like you said, if the questions don't lead anywhere, then make a statement

and see if they take the bait.

So, I said,

"What do you think of the coffee?"

They said they had better.

I don't know what else to say.

I'd say,

"This is my first time at the event.

I think it's really good."

And see if they then, and they should then respond to that with something to

help the conversation flow because it is two way after all people can see if

you're trying to make a conversation.

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Having a toolkit, having a toolbox of sort of, one liners just to

deploy in some case, high-pressure situations, you know, this individual

at the ExCel is quite an important character or carries a lot of weight.

You might feel the pressure a little bit.

Yeah.

And I think especially for non natives that really want to nail

this small talk is to drill, you know, pick three and go with them.

What do you think of the coffee?

And, you know, really drill that into your vocabulary so you can get that

out even when you're not feeling a hundred percent or a little bit nervous.

Yeah.

And then if you want to have more of a conversation with someone, but obviously

you've literally just hijacked them.

You've just grabbed their attention.

Ambushed.

Yeah, perhaps they are having a 10-minute break from what has been

quite a busy morning and they've got another appointment to get to.

You've just jumped in and started making small talk with them.

So, I think it's really important to read the signs to try and

read whether or not this person..

That's a great point.

Are they checking their watch?

Are they checking their phone?

Do they seem distracted?

So, let's say that you've just struck up conversation with

someone you really want to talk to.

The small talk is going well, but you can see that they're a little distracted.

Do you have any suggestions of what you might do to make sure that

you get a chance to have a deeper conversation with this person, but

without being rude and annoying?

Yeah.

Great question, and I'm sure that many people face this on a daily basis.

I would, I mean the first thing is compliment, you know, like we've spoken

about already, complimenting the other person, thanking them, being grateful for

the time that they have spent with you.

And if you are interested in developing this relationship then,

"Thanks very much for your time.

You know, it's been great chatting with you."

Yeah, that's a good one.

So, showing that acknowledgement straight away and then you can

steer it, you know, either way.

Maybe you do want to follow up or maybe you don't, and

"It'd be great to catch up again sometime, if I could grab some details"

or "grab your details" would work.

If not be more indirect, you know, very British about it,

"Maybe we'll bump into each other again sometime."

And taking the indirect route.

It really depends what you would like to do in that situation, but certainly

compliment and be grateful for the time that they have spent with you.

Yeah.

Thoughts on that?

Would you do anything differently?

In a business setting, I would still these days ask for someone's card.

I know that they're becoming less popular because everyone can connect on

the phone, but I wouldn't potentially just say I'd love to connect.

I'd love a chance to speak with you more about this.

Or yeah, just using that phrase, it would be great to connect sometime

or, I'd love to talk more about...

I don't know, filming in 4k.

I'd love to talk more about that, at some point, if you have any time later

today or at some point over the event.

So, just offering up in a really gentle way and also showing appreciation

for the time that they have, you know, saying something like, you're

probably busy right now, but if you have any time later, or over the

weekend, it'd be great to catch up.

Something like that.

Just saying, I appreciate you're probably very busy.

I always appreciate it when people contact me.

I get lots of unsolicited messages and emails.

And when people say, I appreciate you're probably really busy.

I know you're busy.

If they contact me three or four times on the same email chain and I

haven't responded, and they usually say, look, I know you're really busy.

And this email is probably just got washed away in a sea of emails.

I'm just bumping it up in case you are still interested.

That's the best way to approach rather than being.

Yeah, pushy, not too pushy, you know, getting, not having an edge to the

conversation, you know, it is the other person's choice, but you know,

be grateful, and gracious as well.

"I don't want to keep you" is a good phrase.

That's a great one.

Especially if you are trying to ascertain whether someone is open to

spending more time chatting with you.

Maybe you've got an hour free for your lunchtime, and you're not

sure if they have or not, and you want to get deep into conversation.

You could say,

"Look, I don't want to keep you, but it'd be great to chat to you more about this."

And then they might say to you,

"Well, actually I'm on a break until four o'clock this afternoon.

So, I'm at a bit of a loose end.

D'you want to go and grab something to eat and we can talk about it now."

So, just saying, "I don't want to keep you", it gives them the

option to accept or decline more time with you at that point.

So, it's a good one to remember.

That's a fantastic one.

Yeah, I don't want to keep you.

And Rob, I have actually kept you now for an hour on this recording, so I

don't want to keep you any longer.

No, it's been an absolute pleasure being here.

It's been absolutely awesome talking through some of this stuff with you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I've really appreciated all your insights and advice.

What I will do for my Plus Members is to create a little sheet with, like a

crib sheet, or a cue sheet with some of the phrases that we've mentioned here

today and when you should use them.

And that will be available to Plus Members.

So, without further ado, I'm going to thank you, Rob, and I'm going to

encourage my listeners to come and listen to the conversation that we

have on your podcast, which is all about how to interrupt someone, but

in a polite way, because sometimes we do need to make a little interjection.

We do need to interrupt.

Absolutely.

But you don't want to offend someone in the process.

So if you guys want to hear us talking about that, then I'll leave the

details and links in the show notes.

So Rob, where can people find you if they want to listen to you

and your lovely tones generally?

We're on iTunes, Spotify, and all the other major podcast platforms

or at thebusinessenglishpodcast.com.

You can find us there.

Okay, so if I'm on Spotify and I'm just searching for you, I just type

in the British English Podcast.

The Business English.

Oh, the...

Business Business.

The Business.

The Business.

The Business English Podcast.

I mean, they have a great podcast too.

You know, they have a great podcast too.

But The Business English Podcast.

Yeah, The Business English Podcast.

Okay.

How to offend someone in one line.

Excellent.

Repeat their name back.

Good.

Wrong.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Very good.

Okay.

So The Business English Podcast and you're also on YouTube as well, right?

That's right.

Yeah.

Energetic English is the channel, so you can find all

the podcast material on there.

Fantastic.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for joining us and to my listeners, thank you

for joining and I'll see you and tickle your eardrums again very soon.

Until then, take care and goodbye.