How to Participate in Your Own Legal Defense | Lam Ho | TED

36,907 views ・ 2023-02-09

TED


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譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Shelley Tsang 曾雯海
00:03
I'm a lawyer based in Chicago,
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我在芝加哥當律師,
00:06
and two months ago I represented a Vietnamese immigrant woman
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兩個月前,
我代表了一位越南移民女子 處理她的離婚。
00:09
in her divorce.
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00:11
As she was testifying about how her husband brutally raped her,
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當她作證她的先生 如何殘酷地強暴她時,
00:15
the judge repeatedly told her to stop speaking.
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法官重複要求她停止發言。
00:18
She should only speak when I asked her a question.
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她應該只能在我問她 問題時才能發言。
00:22
Can you imagine having to publicly share one of the most painful,
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各位能否想像,必須要公開分享
你人生中最創傷性的時刻之一,
00:26
traumatic moments in your life
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00:28
and being told over and over again to basically shut up?
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卻不斷被告知, 基本上就是要你閉嘴?
00:33
It felt so wrong, but also so familiar for me.
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這感覺實在太不對了,
但我卻很熟悉這種狀況。
00:38
My mother,
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我的母親,
00:40
she had no say in her divorce.
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她在她的離婚中沒有發言權。
00:42
She didn't have a lawyer,
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她沒有律師,
00:43
so she signed papers giving away everything
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所以她簽署文件,
把一切都交出去,
00:47
because she thought she would otherwise be deported back to Vietnam.
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因為她以為,若不這麼做 她就會被驅逐回越南。
00:52
I thought by becoming a lawyer,
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我以為若我成為律師,
00:54
I could help people like my mother.
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我就能協助像我母親這樣的人。
00:56
But then I realized I was actually part of the problem.
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但我接著發現,我其實 就是問題的一部分。
01:00
As lawyers, we take over speaking for our clients.
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身為律師,
我們會接手,為客戶發言,
01:05
And courtroom procedures,
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而法庭程序 ,
01:07
rules of evidence means that we have all the power
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證據規則,意味著我們全權掌控
01:10
in what happens in their cases.
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他們的案子會如何發展。
01:12
We take terrible situations from people's lives
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我們把客戶人生中十分糟糕的情況
01:15
and we translate it into legal language.
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翻譯成法律語言。
01:20
But, in doing so,
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但,這麼做,
01:22
we rewrite our clients as caricatures.
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我們是把我們的客戶 改寫為諷刺漫畫,
01:25
The most helpless, most victimized versions of themselves.
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成了他們自己最無助、 最受害的版本。
01:31
This is the American legal system.
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這就是美國的法律體系。
01:33
And that's why, eight years ago,
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那就是為什麼,八年前, 我成立了「超越法律援助」,
01:35
I founded Beyond Legal Aid
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01:37
in the belief that it doesn't have to be this way,
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因為我相信不必要如此,
01:40
and lawyers can actually change it, working within,
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律師其實可以改變 這個現象,從內做起,
01:43
making it so that clients can speak for themselves.
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讓客戶可以為自己發言。
01:48
How does this work?
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這怎麼運作?
01:50
First, instead of working nine to five in offices downtown,
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第一,
不再在鬧區的辦公室 從九點工作到五點,
01:55
we travel, go to our clients where they live.
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我們改成自己前往客戶生活的地方。
01:58
And during evenings,
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時間是傍晚、
02:00
nights and weekends when they are available.
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晚上,和週末,他們有空的時候。
02:03
And they can be active participants in the legal process.
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他們可以主動參與訴訟程序。
02:08
Next, let me share a little secret.
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接著,讓我分享一個小秘密。
02:11
Well, at least for the non-lawyers.
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至少對不是律師的人來說是秘密。
02:14
Attorneys like to be in charge.
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律師喜歡主導。
02:17
We go to law school,
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我們去讀法學院,
02:19
we hang up fancy law degrees, and we wear fancy suits --
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把很炫的法律學位證書掛起來,
穿很炫的西裝——
02:23
obviously much fancier than what I’m wearing --
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顯然比我現在穿的還要更炫——
02:25
because we want to be in control.
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因為我們想要掌控。
02:28
But it’s our clients whose lives are being judged
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但,被審的是我們的客戶的人生,
02:33
and impacted by what I do.
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我的所做所為會影響他們。
02:36
They need to be full partners in charge of their own cases.
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他們必須成為正式合作夥伴,
主導他們自己的案子。
02:41
We can give advice,
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我們可以給建議,
02:42
empower them to navigate the legal system.
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讓他們有能力 在法律體系中找到方向。
02:45
But ultimately,
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但,最終,
02:47
we need to follow their lead and defer to their decisions.
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我們需要遵從他們的領導,
聽從他們的決策。
02:53
Let me give you an example.
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讓我舉個例子。
02:55
One of our clients, let's call him Atticus,
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我們有位客戶,
咱們稱他為艾提克斯,
02:59
he was facing deportation in a case where the law was completely against us.
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他面臨會被驅逐的處境,
在他的案子中,法律完全 不站在我們這一邊。
03:06
Atticus had been in ICE detention for several months
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艾提克斯被移民及海關 執法局拘留了數個月,
03:11
because the immigration judge denied him bond.
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因為移民法官不讓他用保釋金保釋。
03:14
So he and OCAD, the Organized Communities Against Deportation,
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所以,他和 OCAD (反驅逐組織社區),
03:19
the community group we were working with on his case,
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我們在他的案子中 找的社區團體夥伴,
03:22
wanted to try for bond a second time.
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想要二度嘗試爭取保釋。
03:25
I and the other lawyers were like,
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我和其他律師的反應是:
03:28
"No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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「不,不,不,不,不,不。
03:30
You can't do that.
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你不能那樣做。
03:31
The law is bad,
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法律很不好,法官已經拒絕過一次,
03:32
the judge has already said no once,
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03:34
and we don't want to piss him off by questioning his decision."
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我們不想惹惱他,
去質疑他的決定。」
03:40
But they wanted to proceed, so we deferred to their decision.
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但他們想要繼續做下去,
所以我們聽從了他們的決定。
03:44
However, instead of my sharing his situation on his behalf,
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然而,
不是由我來代表他分享他的情況,
03:50
we convinced the judge to hear a live conversation
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我們說服法官,聽一段現場對談,
03:54
between Atticus and his US citizen son,
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艾提克斯和他的美國公民 兒子所做的對談,
03:58
let's call him Jem.
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咱們稱他為詹姆。
04:01
Jem spoke about how he wanted to commit suicide
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詹姆說到他有多想自殺,
04:06
because he couldn't live without his father anymore.
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因為沒有他的父親他就活不下去了。
04:10
Atticus broke down,
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艾提克斯崩潰了,
04:12
sobbing in despair
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絕望地啜泣,
04:15
because he felt responsible for what was happening with his son
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因為他覺得他要為 他兒子的處境負責,
04:19
and yet couldn't be there for him.
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卻無法陪在他兒子身邊。
04:23
The judge was forced to hear directly
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法官被迫直接聆聽
04:28
how Atticus and Jem loved each other and how much they needed each other.
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艾提克斯和詹姆有多愛彼此,
以及他們多需要彼此。
04:35
He heard it unadulterated, in full, without any questions,
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他完整地聽完了全部,
沒有任何問題,
04:40
without any interruptions by any lawyers.
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沒有任何律師打斷。
04:44
Unfortunately, he denied bond a second time.
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不幸的是,
他再次駁回了保釋。
04:50
But --
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但是——
04:51
and of course there’s a “but,” right,
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當然還有「但是」,不然 我就不用說這個故事了。
04:53
otherwise, I wouldn't be telling you this story.
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(笑聲)
04:56
(Laughter)
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04:57
The judge then cancelled Atticus’s deportation.
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法官接著取消了艾提克斯的驅逐令。
05:02
I cannot tell you how utterly,
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我無法告訴各位,這場法律勝仗
05:06
absolutely shocking that legal victory was.
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是多大的震撼。
05:10
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
05:14
I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe this happened."
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我的反應是:「天, 我不敢相信這真的發生了。」
05:19
And ...
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且……
05:20
I’m going to say something now, which lawyers don’t say very often
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我接下來要說的,
是律師不常說的,
05:26
but probably should say a lot more often.
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但應該要更常說。
05:29
I was wrong.
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我錯了。
05:31
My client and his community, they knew better.
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我的客戶和他的社區,他們更懂。
05:35
If we had not followed their lead and tried for bond a second time,
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如果我們沒有遵循他們的領導,
再次嘗試保釋,
05:39
the judge would have never heard Atticus tell his own story
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法官就永遠不會聽到 艾提克斯訴說他自己的故事,
05:43
and be so moved by what was going on
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被發生的狀況給深深打動,
05:48
that he defied the law
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讓他違抗法律,
05:51
to allow Atticus to stay in the country with his son.
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允許艾提克斯待在美國陪他的兒子。
05:56
Atticus being able to tell his own story,
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艾提克斯因為能夠訴說 他自己的故事,
06:01
created a decision that was impossible,
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因而創造出了不可能的決定,
06:03
at least what we thought as attorneys.
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至少是我們律師認為不可能的。
06:06
Atticus sharing and talking his own case
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艾提克斯分享和談論他自己的案子
06:11
created justice where the law was wrong.
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在法律犯錯的地方,創造了正義。
06:14
And that's why the legal system has to change,
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這就是為什麼法律體系需要改變,
06:18
so that people like Atticus can share their own stories,
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讓像艾提克斯這樣的人 能夠分享他們自己的故事,
06:21
have agency over their own cases.
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能代理自己的案子。
06:25
In the meantime, we as lawyers need to make it happen in our work,
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同時,我們律師
必須要在我們的工作、 我們的案件中實現它,
06:29
in our cases right now.
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現在就開始。
06:33
Thank you.
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謝謝。
06:34
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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