The economic benefits of climate action | Marcelo Mena

翻译人员: Lark Yu 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Marcelo Mena is an environmentalist

惠特尼·彭宁顿·罗杰斯： 马塞洛·梅纳（Marcelo Mena）

是一个环保主义者， 也是一位学者，

and a scholar,

and he is the former Minister of Environment for Chile.

同时也是智利前环保部长。

Welcome, Marcelo.

欢迎您，马塞洛。

Marcelo Mena: How are you doing, Whitney? Thanks for the invitation.

马塞洛：你好，惠特尼！ 最近怎么样？感谢你们邀请我。

WPR: Perfect. Great.

惠特妮：很好。

当然，非常感谢您 今天参与我们的对话。

Of course, thank you so much for being with us here today.

And you know, before we dive into the future of climate action

在深入探讨智利以及其他地区

in Chile and beyond,

未来的环保行动之前，

I think it would be great for us to talk about the present

我觉得我们可以 先谈谈目前的情况，

and why Chile really represents a country that is worth thinking about

以及谈到环保话题，

智利往往是值得探讨的典型， 其背后的原因是什么。

when we talk about climate.

You know, recently there have been lots of commendable actions

最近，智利在国内采取了 许多顺应民心的举措

taken by your country when we think about climate.

来应对气候问题。

Chile recently committed to net-zero emissions by 2050,

智利最近也承诺， 到 2050 年实现零排放，

the first in the Americas to do this,

成为了首开先例的美洲国家，

and that's especially notable when you think about

尤其当我们考虑到智利的经济

how much of Chile's economy really depends on carbon emissions:

对碳排放行业的依赖程度很高：

mining and agriculture and spaces like that.

有矿业、农业 以及诸如此类的行业。

So could you start a little bit by just talking about

请您先从这个角度

how would this even be possible to get to net-zero emissions in 30 years,

谈谈如何在 30 年内 实现零排放目标，

and what would that mean for Chile?

以及这对智利意味着什么？

MM: Mm-hmm. It was a very surreal image

马塞洛：当我们看到

when we saw Minister Schmidt, the COP25 president,

联合国气候变化大会（COP25） 主席施密特（Schmidt），

Patricia Espinosa, the UN head on climate change,

联合国气候变化框架公约执行秘书 帕特里夏 · 埃斯皮诺沙（Patricia Espinosa）

with masks, delivering this new NDC.

在围绕新的 NDC（国家自主贡献） 发言时戴着口罩，这种场景真让人难忘。

The important thing here is, things that are hard to build require consensus,

更关键的是，要实现艰难的目标， 我们需要共识，

but therefore to get rid of that commitment,

这就要求在终止承诺的同时，

you need to have another consensus.

又需要达成新的共识。

This hasn't happened,

各方在这个方面 尚未取得进展，

so the thing is, the reason why Chile has a sort of vision towards mitigation

而智利之所以有这种远见

来实现强力减排，

that's ambitious

is that we see that there's a big economic benefit.

是因为我们看到了 其中巨大的潜在经济效益。

We have seen, we've witnessed,

我们已经见证了，

what the renewable energy sector has been able to do for investment,

可再生能源领域的投资

for lowering energy costs.

降低了能源成本。

And so therefore to reach this goal,

因此，为了达成这个目标，

we will inevitably expand to 100 percent renewable,

我们必然转向 100% 的可再生能源。

but we'll also transform our industry, which is heavy on fossil fuels,

同时，随着氢能源经济的引入，

towards low emissions,

我们也会要求严重依赖 化石燃料的行业

with the hydrogen economy kicking in,

向低碳燃料过渡。

with a recently launched committee that I formed,

对此，我们最近成立了 一个由我发起，

that Minister Jobet, the Minister of Energy, set up.

由智利能源部长乔柏特（Jobet） 组建的委员会。

And also energy efficiency and a lot of capture, carbon capture.

另外，我们还会大幅提升 能源效率和碳捕获能力。

We are endowed with a lot of natural capital.

我们拥有大量的天然资本。

Taking care of that natural capital and expanding plantations

利用好那些天然资本 并扩大人工森林覆盖面积，

will allow us to reach net-zero by 2050.

在 2050 年实现 零排放的目标将指日可待。

WPR: That's great.

惠特妮：听上去很不错。

And now it seems like Chile has such a huge focus, then,

看起来，目前智利正在专注于

in thinking about renewable energy and thinking about climate.

积极思考可再生能源以及 应对气候变化问题的解决之道。

But this wasn't always the case.

但之前情况并非如此。

Could you talk a little bit, I guess,

您能否简单谈一谈

about the history of how Chile arrived at this moment?

智利是如何走到今天的？

MM: Yeah, so in 2011, 2010,

马塞洛：好的。 在 2011、2010 年左右，

we had an energy discussion

我们有过一次关于能源的讨论，

with incumbents saying the only way we could solve our energy problems

当时的负责人认为， 解决我们国家能源问题的唯一方法

will be through large coal and large hydro in the Patagonia.

是使用巴塔哥尼亚地区的 大量煤炭和丰富水力资源。

And that really polarized the discussion.

这在当时引发了激烈的讨论。

We got together as a community after large protests

在引发了许多社会运动的

that triggered a lot of social movements,

几次大规模抗议之后，

and we started discussing

我们作为一个团体聚集在一起，

how we should be able to do our energy going forward.

开始讨论如何解决 未来的能源问题。

The population, public unrest, set up almost 6,000 megawatts

民众的反对呼声和担忧，

of coal-fired power plants to never be built.

成功的阻止了 6000 兆瓦级 燃煤电厂的建设。

And when the government, Michelle Bachelet's government came in,

米歇尔·巴切莱特（Michelle Bachelet） 执掌的政府部门介入后，

we pulled the plug on the HidroAysén project,

我们终止了 HidroAysén 项目建设，

which is a big hydro project in the Patagonia.

这是巴塔哥尼亚地区的 一个大型水利发电项目。

And both of these conditions enabled an opportunity

以上种种情况都成为了

for renewable energy to set in.

可再生能源发展的契机。

We put in carbon taxes,

我们开始征收碳排放税，

we put in environmental regulations,

并制定了一系列环保法规，

and we set up an energy strategy that we did, building on discussing

此外，在一系列讨论和 数据支持的基础上，

我们还确立了一套能源战略，

and looking at the data,

in which we thought that the 70 percent renewable energy by 2050

我们认为，到 2050 年 实现 70% 的可再生能源覆盖率

was going to be a target that we could agree on.

将会是可以达成的目标。

This target has been long surpassed.

目前的进度已经超过预期，

Now we're thinking of reaching that same goal by 2030.

我们觉得到 2030 年 目标就能实现。

WPR: And what you were saying about social protests,

惠特妮： 您刚才谈到抗议活动，

that's something that a lot of people maybe have been following

我想，很多关注智利新闻的人

news of what's going in Chile are familiar with recent social protests,

应该对智利近期的 社会运动有所了解，

and I think I'm curious about how you see that factoring in

我想知道， 您认为这些运动对气候行动

to climate action moving forward.

起到了怎样的推动作用。

How might these social protests

这些抗议活动

play a role in what climate action you see?

对气候行动有什么影响？

And, really, how is it possible for Chile to be a leader in climate action

此外，智利在 社会问题丛生的情况下，

while also struggling with some of these social issues?

是否有可能成为 世界气候行动的领头羊？

MM: Well, the social issues,

马塞洛：很多影响深远

which are very profound and important to address,

且亟待解决的社会问题，

caused, for example, COP25 to not be able to be held in Santiago

导致了如联合国气候变化会议 无法在圣地亚哥举行，

and to go to Madrid.

从而转至马德里，

And this also shifted a whole bunch of the discussions and announcements

同时也导致一系列讨论和宣言

that weren't done

无法落实和达成，

and we were expecting to have.

尽管我们希望能达成。

But regardless of this,

但撇开以上因素，

the fact that we have this commitment from the government today

政府如今的承诺表明，

shows that there's a resolution to continue forward.

他们决心继续为之努力。

But really, the economic model of Chile was brought into question,

但同时，智利的经济模式 也受到了质疑，

because the environmental issues, for example, are quite widespread,

因为诸如环境之类的问题广泛存在。

and many times you have large coal-fired power plants

很多时候大型燃煤电厂

being situated where people live

就建在居民区里，

and with higher mortality rates.

导致了极高的居民死亡率。

Somebody who lives where a power plant is installed

那些住在发电站周边的居民

has twice the rate of death

和智利其他地区的居民相比

in comparison to other people in Chile.

死亡率高出一倍。

So the model of having many people be impacted for the benefit of few

因此，这种让少数人获益 而影响多数的模式

is something that caused and triggered the social unrest.

引发了社会动荡。

And it goes into the economic model itself

它涉及到了经济模式本身——

of extracting, polluting, impacting communities

开采、污染并影响社区，

that may not see the benefits of these economic activities.

而这些社区可能看不到 这些经济活动带来的好处。

So while we've done a lot --

因此，尽管我们 做了大量工作——

we've come a long way, for example, in securing a very emblematic agreement

我们坚持不懈的达成了 一个里程碑式的协议，

to phase out coal-fired power plants --

逐步关停燃煤电厂——

many people feel that this wasn't done fast enough

很多人仍然认为这些举措 进展不够迅速，

and want this action to be brought faster.

希望能够加速实施。

WPR: And it sounds like having people be the voice and the engine

惠特妮：听起来 是群众的呼声和力量

behind making that happen

在背后推动这一切，

has really been part of this historical thread

成为了智利环境保护行动

with climate action in Chile

这个历史节点的一环。

and seems like it would really lead things moving into the future.

看来群众的力量真的能引领未来。

MM: No, definitely, and we will continue. Yes, go ahead. Sorry.

马塞洛：是的，我们会继续。 是的，请继续说。抱歉。

WPR: Go ahead. Please go ahead. We have a little bit of a delay.

惠特妮： 请继续。网络有点延迟。

MM: Going forward, we're going to be ... Starting out, we are doing well,

马塞洛：我们将继续...... 我们的起步不错,

but I think we need to double down on our commitments.

但我觉得我们还要加倍努力。

So even though we have ministries involved,

尽管我们已经有政府参与，

we have civil society involved,

有民间团体协作，

we need to bring in the mainstream industry.

但我们还需要引入支柱产业。

I think, for example, the mining sector has a great opportunity

例如，采矿业有很大可能

to be the solution for the environmental issues,

成为环境问题的解决方案，

because we provide the copper, the cobalt, the lithium

因为我们提供铜、钴、锂等

that are required for solar PV panels, for battery storage.

太阳能光伏板蓄电池 必需的金属元素。

But we need to do this in a clean manner.

但生产方法要环保。

I think that's the biggest challenge we're going to have

我认为这是未来 20 年

in the next 20 years ahead.

我们面临的最大挑战。

WPR: And sort of pivoting to the pandemic

惠特妮：我们说回疫情。

and to thinking about what's going on right now,

考虑到现在的状况，

the entire world has obviously been devastated by this crisis.

全世界显然都因为 这次疫情焦头烂额。

What have been some of the unique challenges that Chile has faced

这次疫情是否给智利带来了

during this pandemic?

什么特别的挑战？

MM: Well, definitely, as anybody,

马塞洛：当然和大家一样，

we are always struggling within

我们一直在抓紧采取行动，

taking actions today to prevent a deeper impact in the future.

阻止疫情在未来 造成更严重的影响。

And we started off pretty well.

我们刚开始做得不错。

We shut off schools.

我们关闭了学校，

We shut off different cities and had a quarantine.

封闭了一些城市，采取隔离措施。

But we gave the wrong signals to people

但是我们给人民 传递了错误的信号。

and we didn't have a consistent effort,

而且没有贯彻一致的措施，

and this has brought us to have the highest infection rates per capita

导致智利目前的人均感染率

in the world these days.

居世界前列。

So this goes to show that -- the same parallels with climate change.

所以这也显示出—— 和气候变化类似的问题。

We need to take action now to prevent deeper impact later.

我们必须立即采取行动， 防止情况恶化。

And I think we need to take the lesson of this

而且我们必须吸取教训，

to continue with an effort,

毫不松懈，

because one thing is to announce an ambitious NDC.

因为一方面要宣布 我们自己的 NDC，

Another thing is to invest and do the regulations that you require

另一方面还必须投入精力， 按规定执行，

to turn this into reality.

才能把计划变成现实。

But there are some things that are interesting.

但还有几件有趣的事情。

The pollution in Santiago,

圣地亚哥

which is one of the most polluted capitals historically in Latin America,

曾经是拉丁美洲污染 最严重的首都之一，

但市内污染现在已大幅缓解，

has dropped substantially.

The car-related emissions are down almost 80 to 90 percent,

汽车尾气排放量 下降了 80% 到 90% ，

which is pretty substantive.

可以说成效卓著。

And we look at the example of what's going on.

我们调查了这背后的原因。

Harvard University showed a study

哈佛大学的一项研究表明，

in which they showed higher mortality rates for more polluted cities.

严重污染城市的死亡率更高。

And this is also the case in Chile.

智利也是一样。

For every microgram of pollution, PM2.5, there is an increase of the fatality rate

污染物 PM2.5 每增加一微克，

of nine percent.

死亡率就会提高 9% 。

But the thing is, we could also look back at what we've achieved up to now.

但我们可以回顾一下 现在所取得的成就。

Had we not taken measures to clean the air,

如果过去 20 年间

as we've done in Chile these last 20 years,

我们没有采取措施净化空气，

we would be talking about five times more people would have died from COVID.

所造成的死亡人数会比 因新冠疫情死亡的人数大概多五倍。

We have around 800 people that have died due to COVID directly,

目前有大概 800 人 因新冠死亡，

but this would have been much higher had we not taken action.

但如果我们没有及时采取措施， 死亡的人数将会更多。

And in fact, due to the lower pollution,

事实上，由于污染的减少，

if we estimate and predict this to the rest of the year,

我们估计今年剩下的时间

we will have saved as many lives reducing the pollution

因为污染减少而活下来的人，

会和因新冠肺炎死亡的人数相当，

as we have lost in COVID,

showing that there's a pandemic that we also need to address,

这说明我们还有 一个“疫情”需要解决，

which is the crisis on air pollution that suffocates many cities in the world.

那就是让全世界许多城市 “窒息”的空气污染危机。

WPR: And it seems like that's probably something that we're seeing

惠特妮：似乎这个问题

in other areas around the world.

在全球其他地方也普遍存在。

As you're suggesting, air pollution is a problem everywhere.

就像您说的， 空气污染是世界性难题。

And I'm curious also

我还想知道

how these challenges that you've mentioned, and maybe others,

您刚才提到的这些挑战 或者还有其他挑战，

might hinder or help

将会如何妨碍或推动

some of this progress that you're hoping to make

在您希望实现的 气候变化行动的方面

towards climate action.

取得进展。

How do you see this factoring in to some of the decisions

如何看待这个因素 在某些决策中的作用

that might be made going forward in Chile and beyond?

对未来智利乃至全世界的影响？

MM: OK, so we have a higher fatality rate and more polluted cities,

马塞洛：好的。我们的死亡率 居高不下，污染城市越来越多。

and we have a climate action to carry out.

需要推动气候行动。

This is going to be a decisive decade,

这将是决定性的十年，

in which we need to lay the groundwork for our lower-emissions strategies.

在这期间，我们必须夯实减排基础。

So whatever we do today cannot lock us in to an incompatible climate future.

无论何种措施，都需要与 未来气候变化和谐发展的目标一致。

We need to lay the groundwork for this low-emissions transition.

因此我们需要做好减排过渡工作。

So therefore, our green recovery efforts need to be done,

正如克里斯塔利娜 （国际货币基金组织总裁）上周所讲的，

as Kristalina [Georgieva] spoke last week,

绿色修复措施必须启动，

has to be related to a green recovery that creates jobs immediately,

该计划能够立即创造就业机会，

that addresses the poverty issues that we have on energy

解决智利南部由于能源短缺

today in southern Chile,

导致的贫困问题，

and we need to use this for expanding renewable energy

而且我们必须借此契机 扩大可再生能源的使用，

and expanding the successful efforts that we've done on electromobility.

同时拓展我们已经在 电动汽车方面取得的成效。

Today, we have the largest fleet of electric buses outside of China,

目前，我们的电动巴士 数量仅次于中国，

but we could actually make this go even bigger,

而实际上这个数量 还可以继续增加，

because we've seen that the reductions in cost have been almost 70 percent

因为我们看到， 与使用柴油的巴士相比，

in comparison to diesel buses.

成本减少了近 70%。

So we should use this opportunity to expand.

因此我们应该把握机会扩大规模。

And multiple stakeholders are working.

许多相关利益方

We're working together to call on the government

正在共同努力号召政府

to do a green recovery,

进行绿色复育，

to use the green bonds that we've already issued

使用我们已经发行的

and under which we've gotten really low rates for interest rates,

利率极低的绿色债券

to do and fund cleaning the air,

来为减少空气污染

cleaning the transportation

和提供绿色交通筹措资金，

and laying the groundwork for a cleaner tomorrow in the mining sector,

为采矿业未来的 碳减排打好基础，

which is our biggest challenge going forward.

这是未来面临的最大挑战。

WPR: And then as far as the way that you think about

惠特妮：那么随着您不断

and conceptualize climate action,

对气候行动进行 具体的概念化推广之外，

have you personally had any changes to your thinking,

您的个人想法是否

just as a result of what you're seeing through this pandemic?

也因为在这次疫情中 所目睹的一切而有所改变呢？

MM: Yeah, I think we start looking around,

马塞洛：我们开始 观察周围的形势，

everybody had to struggle and find that we could do much more with less,

每个人都想要努力达到 事半功倍的效果，

and keeping a full economy

维持良好的经济发展，

that requires you to buy an extra t-shirt that you don't need,

你可能要多买一件并不需要的T恤，

the fact that we're using three times more clothes

事实上，我们目前 消耗的服装数量是

than we were maybe 20 years ago

20 年前的三倍还多，

shows that we are blowing up an economy that requires us

这表明在当前， 拉动经济发展要求我们

to destroy the environment, in a way,

以破坏环境为代价，

to continue forward.

从而获得持续发展。

And the food system is going to be probably our biggest challenge,

食品系统可能成为 我们当前最大的难题，

and even though I've been working with electric buses and electromobility

尽管我在努力推动 电动巴士和汽车的普及，

and just the more conventional mitigation,

但这只是传统意义上的权宜之计，

I think our biggest cultural challenge

我认为我们最大的文化挑战

will be to talk about how our food decisions

实际上是讨论 我们对食物的选择

impact the way that we will have a future.

如何影响我们的未来。

"Nature" just put out a report

《自然》杂志刚发布了一份报告，

that showed something that when we were in the government, we had talked about.

报告中提出的问题正是 我们在政府工作中讨论的问题。

When Chile was good in soccer,

智利擅长足球，

we started going deeper into the wintertime contests,

我们开始加强冬季赛事，

and we started winning games.

我们也赢了一些比赛。

But to win those games, we started doing a lot of barbecues,

但为了赢这些比赛， 我们却吃了大量的烤肉。

and the paper that came out showed something that,

有报告表明，

when we explained this to people,

当我们告诉大家

that you guys are messing up the air with barbecues,

因为烧烤，你们正在破坏空气，

people thought we were crazy.

大家会觉得我们疯了。

Well, the "Nature" report now shows that we actually fouled the air

《自然》杂志的报告指出， 我们的确污染了空气，

and destroyed the air, annihilated the air,

甚至彻底破坏了空气，

because we wanted to celebrate the soccer.

只为了庆祝足球赛事。

And we set this up to people, and people thought we were crazy.

我们把这个事实告诉大家， 但大家只觉得我们疯了。

Now people acknowledge the fact that the basic things that you could do,

现在，人们开始认识到， 我们的一些日行为，

such as the way that you choose how to cook,

诸如我们选择烹饪的方式，

could actually impact your air.

确实会影响到空气质量。

So I think going forward these cultural challenges that we need to do,

所以我认为面对此类文化挑战，

we need to tackle them head-on.

我们必须迎难而上，

We should need to show the evidence.

摆出证据。

Otherwise, we're just going to be ignoring problems

否则我们只是在无视问题，

and letting them perpetuate for the future.

任其发展。

WPR: And, you know, for nations who have not really prioritized climate

惠特妮：有些国家 并不像智利这样

in the same way that Chile has,

重视气候问题，

are there lessons that you think can be learned

您认为智利在过去 几年里所采取的措施

from some of the choices that Chile has made in recent years

有没有值得其他国家

that other nations can apply,

借鉴和运用的？

and how could folks in other countries implement some of these strategies

你在智利采取的策略，

有没有哪些是其他国家的 领导人可以借鉴的？

that you implemented in Chile?

MM: So, many people in the US and across the world

马塞洛：我想很多美国人， 甚至世界各国的人

know about the Chilean sea bass.

都知道智利鲈鱼。

The Chilean sea bass was overfished and almost collapsed.

由于过度捕捞， 智利鲈鱼濒临灭绝。

One of the things that we did under the support from "National Geographic"

在《国家地理》杂志的支持和

and with the leadership of President Bachelet

巴切莱特（Bachelet） 总统的带领下，

was to expand marine protection,

我们加大了海洋保护力度，

from four percent of our oceans to 43 percent within one government,

在这一届政府任期内，将海洋 保护面积从 4% 增加到 43% ，

which is the largest leap.

实现了巨大的飞跃。

There's only comparison to the US during Obama in terms of protection.

这一程度的保护力度只有 美国奥巴马任期的美国可以比肩。

And this is because we want this population also to recover.

这也是因为我们 希望鱼群数目能恢复。

You know, when you let the park stop fishing,

事实上， 当公园开始禁止钓鱼行为，

the overflow from the fishing

过度钓鱼行为实际上

will actually increase the biomass sixfold.

会使生物质的数量增加六倍。

So I think one of the efforts that we need to do

因此，我觉得当我们谈论到

as we talk about the biodiversity convention

明年即将诞生的生物多样性公约，

that's going to happen this next year

我们需要做的一项工作

is that we need to change our relationship to the environment.

就是改变我们和环境的关系。

We need to protect and conserve our ecosystems,

我们需要维护生态系统，

so they provide the services that they do today.

让它们发挥今天所具有的功能。

Today, 96 percent of all mammals, land mammals,

现如今，96% 的陆生哺乳动物，

are humans or stuff humans eat.

是人类，或者人类的食物。

Only four percent of land mammals are wild.

仅有 4% 的陆地哺乳动物是野生的。

When I heard that data, from "National Geographic,"

当我第一次从《国家地理》杂志

for the first time,

听到这个数字，

I couldn't believe it.

简直不敢相信。

我们已经改变了和这个星球的关系，

We've changed our relationship with the planet,

and we're suffering these decisions

我们看到动物传染病—— 不仅是新冠病毒——

because we see zoonotic diseases -- not just coronavirus --

一次次蔓延传播，

spread time after time.

我们在为自己的行为付出代价。

WPR: And we have Bruno here -- hi, Bruno -- with a question from the community.

惠特妮：布鲁诺上线了—— 你好，布努诺——他带来了观众的提问。

Bruno Giussani: Hi. Absolutely. Hello, Marcelo.

布努诺·吉萨尼（Bruno Giussani）： 你好，没错。你好，马塞洛。

This is a question from Melissa Mahoney.

有一个来自梅丽莎·莫哈妮的问题。

She asks if you can expand on what economic benefits

她询问，是否可以展开讲述一下

of net-zero emissions are.

零排放的经济效益。

And especially, could those benefits be the same for Chile

尤其是，这些经济效益对智利

and for other countries?

和对其他国家来说是相同的吗？

MM: Good.

马塞洛： 谢谢提问。

For example, when I worked in the World Bank,

比如，在我就职世界银行期间，

我们支持智利深入研究零排放

we supported Chile to look into the macroeconomic impacts

of the net-zero target.

对宏观经济的影响。

And it was shown that Chile will grow 4.4 percent more.

研究表明，智利的 经济增长率会增加 4.4% 。

So we turned the risk of climate change,

因此我们把气候变化的风险

and we turned it into an opportunity of expanded growth.

变成了提升经济增长率的机遇。

This manifests in lower transportation costs,

这也被证明能够 有效降低交通成本，

lower energy costs,

节省能源开支，

and this makes the economy more competitive.

让经济更有竞争力。

The costs of reaching the net-zero target

达成零排放目标的成本

are much lower than the benefits that we will have to reap.

要远远低于我们将要获得的受益。

And we're not even talking about cleaner air benefits,

这甚至不涉及到 更清洁的空气带来的效益，

we're talking about direct economic benefits

我们只是在说增加投资

of having increased investments,

所带来的直接经济收益，

which is something that every country will require in these years

这也是每个国家在未来几年

to recover from the COVID crisis,

从新冠疫情危机中复苏所需要的，

and lower energy costs.

同时还能降低能源的成本。

So that's how it manifests,

这就是事实所呈现的，

and this is a consensus today

也成为了当今的共识，

that we need to have more renewable energy

我们需要更多可再生能源，

because this is the way that we've had cleaner air and lower energy costs.

因为这就是我们拥有清洁空气 和更低能源成本的方法。

BG: There is another question from someone in the audience, asking,

布鲁诺： 还有一个来自观众的问题。

"Countries across Latin America have very different attitudes on climate.

“拉美国家对待 气候变化态度迥异。

Can you comment on that?"

您对此有什么看法？”

MM: So Pew Research Center has been putting out reports

马塞洛：皮尤研究中心已经发布

regarding what is the main external threat that you have.

有关我们面临的外部威胁的报告。

And in Europe, in the US,

在欧洲和美国，

the biggest threat was either China or ISIS

最大的威胁来自 中国，或者 ISIS，

or some external bellicose threat.

或者一些外部的暴力威胁。

In Latin America and Africa, it's climate change, number one,

而在拉美和非洲， 首要威胁就是气候变化，

and Chile is one of the highest, with 86 percent of Chileans

在智利，有高达 86% 的居民认为

saying that climate change is the greatest external threat.

气候变化是最大的外部威胁。

And this is also very high across the region.

而且整个地区 有此想法的民众比例都很高。

We could have populist governments coming in, changing their priorities,

我们可以让民粹政府参与管理， 改变政务优先事项，

but the reality is, people are concerned,

但现实情况是，普通百姓 对此也非常担忧，

because they see the threat of climate change every day,

无论中央政府相信与否，

and regardless of whether the national government believes in it,

大家每天都在目睹 气候变化的影响，

climate change is real

气候变化是真实存在的，

and is causing impacts and causing poverty in the region.

正在这片地区造成影响， 并导致气候性贫困。

BG: Thank you, Marcelo. Back to you, Whitney.

布鲁诺：感谢你，马塞洛。 交给你了，惠特尼。

WPR: Thank you. Thank you, Bruno.

惠特妮：谢谢你，布努诺。

And Marcelo, just one last question before we actually say goodbye,

马塞洛，我还有最后一个问题，

which is just, knowing that you were involved in the negotiations

那就是关于您参与了

《巴黎气候协定》的谈判，

for the Paris Agreement,

are there things that you take from that experience

在我们思考如何摆脱

that you can apply to this moment

这场危机和新冠疫情大流行时，

as we think about emerging from this crisis

您认为我们可以从这段经历中

and coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic?

借鉴到哪些经验？

MM: Yes,

马塞洛：是的，

that there will always be a populist that will be opposing climate action,

总是有民粹主义者 反对气候保护行动，

and the way to get at this is to make the economic case,

解决办法就是使用经济手段，

so regardless of what happens,

无论发生什么，

there will be an economic case for spending on renewable energy.

在可再生能源上投资 是有经济方面的考虑的。

The US grew its renewable energy investments around 40 percent last year.

去年，美国对可再生能源的 投资增加了将近 40% 。

In Brazil, it grew almost 10 percent.

而在巴西，增幅将近 10% 。

And so therefore, if we are able to align the economic goals

因此，如果我们能根据气候目标

来调整经济目标，

with climate goals,

就可以推动改变的发生。

you will be able to make this go forward.

There's the Network for Greening the Financial System

有将各大中央银行召集起来的

that puts together central bankers.

“绿化金融体系网络”。

The World Bank launched a coalition of finance ministers for climate action.

世界银行也发起了针对 气候行动的金融部长联合会。

These are great efforts

这些巨大的努力

that will allow us to have the financial system support climate action

将促使我们的金融系统 为气候行动提供支持，

because there's an economic benefit,

因为有经济效益的存在，

because it's important for you, for your fiduciary responsibilities,

因为披露你们所面临的风险——

to disclose the risks you have,

无论是过渡性的还是实际的——

both transitionally and physically.

对你和你的信托责任来说都很重要。

And if we are able to do this,

而且如果我们能做成，

regardless of what negotiations happen,

无论谈判进展如何——

because there will always be problems with the consensus,

因为达成共识前 总会面临各种问题——

you will continue to have a resilient approach

你总会有一个弹性的解决方案，

because climate action will continue

而气候行动也会继续，

because you can have the economic system support this.

因为你可以获得经济体系的支持。

WPR: That's really great.

惠特妮：说得太好了。

Thank you so much, Marcelo, for being with us

非常感谢马塞洛 参与我们今天的讨论，

to share your perspective and your insight.

并分享了您的很多观点和见解。

It's really great to sort of zoom in on some of the things happening in Chile

很高兴能够更具体了解 智利国内发生的一些变化，

and how that might apply to all of us all over the world.

以及其他国家可以借鉴的经验。

Thank you for joining us today.

感谢您参与我们今天的对话。 马塞洛：谢谢！

MM: Thanks.