How digital innovation can fight pandemics and strengthen democracy | Audrey Tang

翻译人员: Ye Shen 校对人员: 功伟 邢

Audrey Tang: Very happy to be joining you,

Audrey Tang：很高兴与你通话，

and good local time, everyone.

各位当地时间好。

那么跟我们说说

David Biello: So, tell us about --

Sorry to --

很抱歉

Tell us about digital tools and COVID.

跟我们说说新冠肺炎以及相关的电子工具

好的

AT: Sure.

我非常乐意和你分享

Yeah, I'm really happy to share with you

how Taiwan successfully countered the COVID

台湾是如何使用国民电子设施

using the power of digital democracy tools.

成功控制新冠肺炎的

我们知道，随着更多人的参与，民主得到改善。

As we know, democracy improves as more people participate.

And digital technology remains one of the best ways to improve participation,

数字技术仍然是提高参与度的最佳途径之一，

只要重点放在寻找共同点上，

as long as the focus is on finding common ground,

that is to say, prosocial media instead of antisocial media.

也就是说，亲社会媒体而不是反社会媒体。

And there's three key ideas that I would like to share today

今天我想分享三个关键的想法

about digital democracy that is fast, fair and fun.

关于快速、公平和有趣的数字民主。

首先是关于快速的部分。

First about the fast part.

Whereas many jurisdictions began countering coronavirus only this year,

许多司法管辖区今年才开始对抗冠状病毒，

Taiwan started last year.

而台湾从去年就已经开始。

Last December, when Dr. Li Wenliang, the PRC whistleblower,

去年12月，中国吹哨人李文亮医生，

posted that there are new SARS cases,

发布了新的SARS病例，

he got inquiries and eventually punishments

他最终受到了来自中国公安机关的

from PRC police institutions.

调查和处罚。

But at the same time,

但是与此同时，

在台湾Reddit网上的Ptt板块上，

the Taiwan equivalent of Reddit, the Ptt board,

有一个网名叫“nomorepipe”的人

has someone called nomorepipe

reposting Dr. Li Wenliang's whistleblowing.

转载了李文亮医生的检举

And our medical officers immediately noticed this post

我们的医务官员立刻注意到了这个帖子

and issued an order that says

然后发布命令说

all passengers flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan

所有从武汉飞往台湾的旅客

第二天就要开始健康检查，

need to start health inspections the very next day,

which is the first day of January.

那是一月的第一天。

And this says to me two things.

这告诉我两件事。

First, the civil society trusts the government enough

首先，公民社会非常信任政府

在公共论坛上讨论可能的新的非典疫情。

to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in the public forum.

And the government trusts citizens enough

然后政府也足够信任公民

to take it seriously and treat it as if SARS has happened again,

认真对待，把它当作非典重演，

从2003年开始我们就一直在为之做准备。

something we've always been preparing for, since 2003.

And because of this open civil society,

因为这个开放的公民社会，

according to the CIVICUS Monitor after the Sunflower Occupy,

根据太阳花运动后的公民监测，

Taiwan is now the most open society in the whole of Asia.

台湾现在是全亚洲最开放的社会。

We enjoy the same freedom of speech, of assembly,

我们享有同样的言论自由和集会自由，

[unclear] as other liberal democracies,

[不清楚]与其他自由民主国家一样，

but with the emphasis on keeping an open mind

但重点是要保持开放的心态

to novel ideas from the society.

去接受来自社会的新思想。

这就是为什么我们的学校和企业今天仍然开放，

And that is why our schools and businesses still remain open today,

there was no lockdown,

没有封锁，

it's been a month with no local confirmed cases.

已经一个月没有当地确诊病例了。

所以快速的部分，

So the fast part.

Every day, our Central Epidemic Command Center, or CECC,

每天，我们的中央疫情指挥中心，或CECC，

holds a press conference, which is always livestreamed,

都举行一个新闻发布会，并总是现场直播

and we work with the journalists,

都举行一个新闻发布会，并总是现场直播

they answer all the questions from the journalists,

他们回答记者的所有问题，

每当社会部门有新的想法出现，

and whenever there's a new idea coming in from the social sector,

任何人都可以拿起电话拨打1922

anyone can pick up their phone and call 1922

and tell that idea to the CECC.

告诉CECC他们的想法。

For example, there was one day in April

例如，四月有一天

where a young boy has said he doesn't want to go to school

一个小男孩说他不想上学

because his school mates may laugh at him

因为他的同学可能会嘲笑他

because all he had is a pink medical mask.

因为他只有一个粉红色的医用口罩。

The very next day,

第二天，

everybody in the CECC press conference started wearing pink medical masks,

CECC新闻发布会上的每个人 都戴着粉红色的医用口罩，

making sure that everybody learns about gender mainstreaming.

确保每个人都了解社会性别主流化。

And so this kind of rapid response system

所以这种快速反应系统

builds trust between the government and the civil society.

在政府和民间社会之间建立信任。

And the second focus is fairness.

第二个重点是公平。

Making sure everybody can use their national health insurance card

确保每个人都能使用他们的国家健康保险卡

to collect masks from nearby pharmacies,

从附近的药店收集口罩，

我们不仅公布六千家药局的

not only do we publish the stock level of masks of all pharmacies,

口罩库存水平，

6,000 of them,

we publish it every 30 seconds.

还30秒刷新一次。

这就是为什么我们的公民黑客， 我们在数字空间的公民编程师，

That's why our civic hackers, our civil engineers in the digital space,

建立了100多个工具，使人们能够查看地图

built more than 100 tools that enable people to view a map,

或者失明的人和聊天机器人 或语音助理聊天，

or people with blindness who talk to chat bots, voice assistants,

他们都可以获得相同的信息访问权限

all of them can get the same inclusive access to information

about which pharmacies near them still have masks.

他们附近的哪些药店还有口罩。

因为国家健康保险

And because the national health insurance single payer

is more than 99.9 percent of health coverage,

保障99.9%的医疗保护，

people who show any symptoms

任何有症状的人

will then be able to take the medical mask,

都可以戴上口罩，

go to a local clinic,

去当地的诊所，

knowing fully that they will get treated fairly

知道他们会得到公平的对待

不会造成任何经济负担。

without incurring any financial burden.

然后人们设计了一个仪表盘

And so people designed a dashboard

that lets everybody see our supply is indeed growing,

这让大家看到我们的供应确实在增长，

and whether there's over- or undersupply,

不管是供过于求还是供过于求，

so that we codesign this distribution system

所以我们共同设计这个分配系统

与药店，整个社会一起。

with the pharmacies, with the whole of society.

So based on this analysis,

所以根据这个分析，

我们发现有70%的峰值，

we show that there was a peak at 70 percent,

and that remaining 20 percent of people were often young, work very long hours,

剩下的20%的人都是年轻人，工作时间很长，

when they go off work, the pharmacies also went off work,

当他们下班的时候， 药局也停工了，

and so we work with convenience stores

所以我们和便利店合作

这样每个人都可以随时去领口罩，

so that everybody can collect their mask anytime,

24 hours a day.

一天24小时。

So we ensure fairness of all kinds,

所以我们要确保各种公平，

based on the digital democracy's feedback.

基于数字民主的反馈。

最后，我要承认 这段时间压力很大。

And finally, I would like to acknowledge that this is a very stressful time.

People feel anxious, outraged,

人们感到焦虑，愤怒，

有很多恐慌性购买，

there's a lot of panic buying,

a lot of conspiracy theories in all economies.

所有经济体都有很多阴谋论。

在台湾，

And in Taiwan,

our counter-disinformation strategy is very simple.

我们的反造谣策略非常简单。

这叫做“幽默战胜谣言”

It's called "humor over rumor."

So when there was a panic buying of tissue paper, for example,

例如，当人们恐慌性地购买纸巾时，

有传言说

there was a rumor that says,

"Oh, we're ramping up mass production,

“哦，我们正在加大批量生产，

使用和纸巾一样的材料，

it's the same material as tissue papers,

and so we'll run out of tissue paper soon."

所以我们很快就会用完纸巾了。”

And our premier showed a very memetic picture

我们的行政院长 开了一个令人印象深刻的玩笑

that I simply have to share with you.

我们在这里可以看到

In very large print,

用很大的版面

他露出了他的屁股

he shows his bottom,

稍微晃动一下，

wiggling it a little bit,

and then the large print says

然后写着

"Each of us only have one pair of buttocks."

“我们每个人只有一对屁股。”

当然，重要的表格显示

And of course, the serious table shows

that tissue paper came from South American materials,

那张纸巾来自南美原料，

and medical masks come from domestic materials,

医用口罩来自国内原料，

and there's no way that ramping up production of one

所以不可能提高一个的产量

will hurt the production of the other.

会影响另一个的生产

And so that went absolutely viral.

所以这绝对是病毒式的。

And because of that, the panic buying died down

正因为如此，恐慌性购买逐渐平息

in a day or two.

一两天后。

And finally, we found out the person who spread the rumor in the first place

最后，我们找到了一开始散布谣言的人

是纸巾经销商。

was the tissue paper reseller.

And this is not just a single shock point in social media.

这不只仅仅是社交媒体上的一个意外。

每一天，

Every single day,

the daily press conference gets translated

每日新闻发布会的翻译

by the spokesdog of the Ministry of Health and Welfare,

是由卫生和福利部的代言人做的，

that translated a lot of things.

他们翻译了很多东西。

For example, our physical distancing is phrased as saying

例如，我们的保持肢体距离被说成

"If you are outdoors, you need to keep two dog-lengths away,

“如果你在户外，你需要和他人 保持两只狗的距离，

if you are indoor, three dog-lengths away," and so on.

如果你在室内，三只狗的距离。” 等等。

And hand sanitation rules, and so on.

手部卫生等规则也是如此。

So because all this goes viral,

正因这些标语迅速广泛的传播，

we make sure that the factual humor spreads faster than rumor.

我们确信这些以事实相关的 幽默会比谣言传播得更快。

而且， 它们就像预防针一样被人们接种，

And they serve as a vaccine, as inoculation,

so that when people see the conspiracy theories,

所以当人们看见关于新冠肺炎的阴谋论时，

the R0 value of that will be below one,

它的R0值将小于1，

meaning that those ideas will not spread.

意味着这些阴谋论不会传开来。

And so I only have this five-minute briefing,

我只有这五分钟的情况介绍，

the rest of it will be driven by your Q and A,

接下来的时间会是你我的问答，

但请随意阅读更多

but please feel free to read more

about Taiwan's counter-coronavirus strategy,

关于台湾应对新冠病毒的策略，

at taiwancanhelp.us.

在 taiwancanhelp.us 的网站上。

谢谢。

Thank you.

DB：太好了。

DB: That's incredible.

And I love this "humor versus rumor."

而且我喜欢“幽默对决谣言”的部分。

在美国，问题大概在于，

The problem here in the US, perhaps,

is that the rumors seem to travel faster than any response,

流言看起来比任何答复都要传播得快，

whether humorous or not.

不管幽默与否。

How do you defeat that aspect in Taiwan?

你在台湾是如何挫败那一方面的呢？

是的，当然，我们也发现了这一情况，

AT: Yeah, we found that, of course,

humor implicitly means there is a sublimation

幽默含蓄地意味着一种

对于苦恼，对于愤怒的升华。

of upsetness, of outrage.

并且你可以看到，例如，我们的行政院院长，

And so as you see, for example, in our premier's example,

he makes fun of himself.

他拿自己开玩笑。

但他不以别人为代价开玩笑，

He doesn't make a joke at the expense of other people.

And this was the key.

这是最重要的。

Because people think it hilarious,

因为人们认为他的自嘲很好笑，

they share it,

所以他们分享了，

but with no malicious or toxic intentions.

但不带任何恶意或有害的目的。

People remember the actual payload,

人们记得真实的酬载，

that table about materials used to produce masks,

关于制造口罩的材料的表格，

much more easily.

他们更加容易记得。

If they make a joke that excludes parts of the society,

如果他们开了个玩笑， 没考虑社会的其中一份子，

of course, that part of society will feel outraged

那么，那一部分人会感到愤慨，

and we will end up creating more divisiveness,

最后引起更多分歧，

rather than prosocial behavior.

而不是利于社会的行为。

所以，不以任何人为代价的幽默，

So the humor at no expense,

不排除社会的任何一部分，

not excluding any part of society,

I think that was the key.

我认为这才是关键。

DB：这同样棒极了。

DB: It's also incredible

因为台湾与它的起源有着如此紧密的联系。

because Taiwan has such close ties to the origin point of this.

AT: PRC, yes.

AT：中华人民共和国，是的。

DB: The mainland.

DB: 中国大陆。

So given those close economic ties,

所以，基于如此密切的经济联系，

how do you survive that kind of disruption?

你们如何挺过这种扰乱？

AT：是的，我指，在这个时刻，

AT: Yeah, I mean, at this moment,

几乎一个月来没有一例本地确诊的病例，

it's been almost a month now with no local confirmed cases,

so we're doing fine.

所以我们过得不错。

我们现在在做的，本质上，

And what we are doing, essentially,

is just to respond faster than pretty much anyone.

就是对消息比任何人都回应得快。

We started responding last year,

我们从去年开始做出反应，

而几乎所有人从今年才开始回应。

whereas pretty much everybody else started responding this year.

We tried to warn the world last year, but, anyway.

我们去年尝试着向全球发出警告，可惜。

So in any case,

所以，无论如何。

重点是如果你足够早地开始，

the point here is that if you start early enough,

you get to make sure that the border control

你就能确保边界管制

是隔离所有回返居民的主要地点，以此类推，

is the main point where you quarantine all the returning residents and so on,

instead of waiting until the community spread stage,

而不是等到社区传播的阶段，

where even more human-right invading techniques

当更多侵犯人权的措施

would probably have to be deployed one way or the other.

不管怎样都得实施下去。

And so in Taiwan, we've not declared an emergency situation.

还有，在台湾，我们还没有宣布紧急情况。

We're firmly under the constitutional law.

我们坚决遵守宪法。

正因如此，行政部门执行的任何一个措施

Because of that, every measure the administration is taking

在没有新冠病毒的时候都是适用的。

is also applicable in non-coronavirus times.

And this forces us to innovate.

并且现在的情况迫使我们创新。

Much as the idea of "we are an open liberal democracy"

就像“我们是一个开放的自由民主国家”的想法

使我们不会随意屏蔽留言。

prevented us from doing takedowns.

所以，我们不得不发明了幽默对决谣言，

And therefore, we have to innovate of humor versus rumor,

because the easy path, the takedown of online speech,

因为最简单的方法，即关闭网络言论，

is not accessible to us.

对我们来说是不可能的。

我们不限制网络的设计准则，

Our design criteria, which is no lockdowns,

also prevented us from doing any, you know,

同样阻止了我们做任何事，你知道，

非常侵犯隐私的响应系统。

very invasive privacy encroaching response system.

So we have to innovate at the border,

所以我们必须在边界创新，

and make sure that we have a sufficient number of, for example,

确保我们有足够数量的，比如，

隔离区旅馆，又叫做“电子围栏”，

quarantine hotels or the so-called "digital fences,"

where your phone is basically connected to the nearby telecoms,

基本上，你的手机连接着附近的电信设备，

and they make sure that if they go out of the 15-meter or so radius,

它们的作用是确保如果人们离开了 大约半径15米的区域，

an SMS is sent to the local household managers or police and so on.

一则短信会发送到当地的房屋管理者或是警察等人。

但因为我们集中在边界措施上，

But because we focus all these measures at the border,

大部分人过着正常生活。

the vast majority of people live a normal life.

DB：让我们来谈谈这个。

DB: Let's talk about that a little bit.

So walk me through the digital tools

向我介绍一下这些数字工具

and how they were applied to COVID.

以及它们如何应用于新冠病毒的。

AT： 当然。

AT: Yes.

我刚刚概述了它的三个部分。

So there's three parts that I just outlined.

The first one is the collective intelligence system.

第一个是它的集体情报系统。

Through online spaces

通过网上

that we design to be devoid of Reply buttons,

我们设计为没有“回复”按钮的网上空间，

because we see that, when there's Reply buttons,

因为我们发现，当出现“回复”按钮时，

人们注意力集中在别人脸的部分， 而不是书的部分。

people focus on each other's face part, not the book part,

and without "Reply" buttons,

并且，没有了“回复”按钮，

you can get collective intelligence

你能让集体情报系统

通过他们的粗略的共识得出话题的走向，

working out their rough consensus of where the direction is going

同时还有应对策略。

with the response strategies.

So we use a lot of new technologies,

所以我们采用很多新科技，

such as Polis,

比如 Polis,

which is essentially a forum that lets you upvote and downvote

本质上是一个让大家赞成或反对

each other's feelings,

彼此情感的论坛。

but with real-time clustering,

但随着人们实时聚集，

so that if you go to cohack.tw,

当你到 cohack.tw 网站上时，

you see six such conversations,

你会发现六个这类话题，

talking about how to protect the most vulnerable people,

讨论如何保护最弱势的群体，

how to make a smooth transition,

如何平稳过渡这一时期，

how to make a fair distribution of supplies and so on.

以及如何公平分配物资等等。

And people are free to voice their ideas,

人们可以自由表达自己的想法,

and upvote and downvote each other's ideas.

赞成或反对彼此的想法。

But the trick is that we show people the main divisive points,

但诀窍是我们向人们展示主要的分歧，

and the main consensual points,

和主要的共识点，

and we respond only to the ideas

而且我们只回应

that can convince all the different opinion groups.

那些可以说服所有不同意见组的想法。

So people are encouraged to post more eclectic, more nuanced ideas

因此，人们受到鼓励，发布更多折衷的， 细微的想法

他们发现，在这场商讨的最后，

and they discover, at the end of this consultation,

所有人，实际上，同意大多数事情。

that everybody, actually, agrees with most things,

with most of their neighbors on most of the issues.

并且在多半问题上与大多数邻居都同意。

And that is what we call the social mandate,

这就是我们所说的社会授权，

or the democratic mandate,

或是民主授权，

that then informs our development of the counter-coronavirus strategy

这为我们反新冠病毒策略的发展提供了信息，

and helping the world with such tools.

并用这类工具帮助了世界。

And so this is the first part,

所以这是第一部分，

it's called listening at scale for rough consensus.

这被称为大规模聆听以获得大致的共识。

The second part I already covered is the distribute ledger,

第二部分是我已经提到分布式分类账，

所有人都能到附近的药局，

where everybody can go to a nearby pharmacy,

present their NHI card, buy nine masks, or 10 if you're a child,

出示他们的健康保险卡，买九个口罩， 如果是孩子可以买十个

他们的手机上可以看到，药局的口罩库存

and see the stock level of that pharmacy on their phone

actually decreasing by nine or 10 in a couple of minutes.

在几分钟内实际下降了9或10个。

如果库存上升了9或10个，

And if they grow by nine or 10,

of course, you call the 1922,

当然，你可以致电1922，

and report something fishy is going on.

反映可疑事情在发生。

But this is participatory accountability.

但这是参与式责任。

This is published every 30 seconds.

库存每30秒发布一次。

So everybody holds each other accountable,

所以每个人都互相负责，

and that massively increases trust.

这极大地增加了信任度。

最后，第三部分，幽默对决谣言。

And finally, the third one, the humor versus rumor,

I think the important thing to see here

我认为重要的是要在这里看到

is that wherever there's a trending disinformation or conspiracy theory,

每当有一个热门的虚假信息或是阴谋论时，

you respond to it with a humorous package

以幽默为包装来回复它

within two hours.

在两小时之内。

We have discovered, if we respond within two hours,

我们发现，如果我们在两小时之内回应，

then more people see the vaccination than the conspiracy theory.

更多人看到类似预防针的事实而不是阴谋论。

But if you respond four hours or a day afterwards,

但是如果你在四个小时或是一天之后回应，

then that's a lost cause.

那是注定要失败的。

You can't really counter that using humor anymore,

你没法用幽默来反击。

you have to invite the person who spread those messages

你必须邀请传播这些消息的人

来到共同创造工作室。

into cocreation workshops.

But we're OK with that, too.

我们对此可以接受。

DB： 你们的速度真快。

DB: Your speed is incredible.

我看见Whiteney带着一些疑问加入了我们。

I see Whitney has joined us with some questions.

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: That's right,

Whitney Pennington Rodgers： 没错。

we have a few coming in already from the audience.

我们已经有一些来自观众的问题了。

你好，Audrey.

Hi there, Audrey.

我们先从我们的社区成员 Michael Backes 开始。

And we'll start with one from our community member Michael Backes.

他提问，幽默对决谣言这一策略

He asks how long has humor versus rumor been a strategy

that you've implemented.

你们已经实施多久了。

Excuse me.

抱歉。

"How long has humor versus rumor strategy been implemented?

"幽默对决谣言已经实施多久了?

Were comedians consulted to make the humor?"

有人请喜剧演员来制造幽默吗？”

AT: 是的，当然。

AT: Yes, definitely.

Comedians are our most cherished colleagues.

喜剧演员是我们最珍视的同事。

And each and every ministry has a team of what we call participation officers

每个部门都有一个团队，我们 称他们为参与人员，

in charge of engaging with trending topics.

他们负责参与热门话题。

现在这是一个拥有超过100人员的大团队了。

And it's a more than 100 people-strong team now.

We meet every month and also every couple of weeks

我们每个月或每隔几周就见面

on specific topics.

讨论具体的话题。

It's been like that since late 2016,

我们自2016年下半年以来就这样了。

但是直到我们以前的发言人，Kolas Yotaka,

but it's not until our previous spokesperson, Kolas Yotaka,

在大约一年半前加入我们，

joined about a year and a half ago,

do the professional comedians get to the team.

专业的戏剧演员才来到团队里。

Previously, this was more about inviting the people who post, you know,

在这之前，这更多是关于邀请那些发帖的人， 你知道，

发言“我们的税务申报系统 充满敌意”这类的语录，

quotes like "Our tax filing system is explosively hostile,"

然后流行起来。

and gets trending,

and previously, the POs just invited those people.

总之，以前负责人只是邀请这些人。

Everybody who complains

所有人都在抱怨

about the finance minister's tax-filing experience

关于财务部长的税务申报经历，

gets invited to the cocreation of that tax filing experience.

然后他们被邀请来共同合作讲述这经历。

So previously, it was that.

所以之前就像这样。

But Kolas Yotaka and the premier Su Tseng-chang said,

但是 Kolas Yotaka 和行政院院长苏贞昌说，

wouldn't it be much better and reach more people

如果我们添加一些小猫小狗的照片

会不会达到更好地沟通效果?

if we add some dogs to it or cat's pictures to it?

And that's been around for a year and a half.

这一改进已经持续了大约一年半了。

WPR: 当然，我认为这会有 很大不同，看到它们

WPR: Definitely, I think it makes a lot of difference, just even seeing them

without being part of the thought process behind that.

我不会想到这背后的的思想过程。

And we have another question here from G. Ryan Ansin.

我们有更多来自G，Ryan Ansin 的问题。

他问， ”您如何评价

He asks, "What would you rank the level of trust

your community had before the pandemic,

在疫情之前社区的信任程度，

in order for the government to have a chance

能使政府有机会

at properly controlling this crisis?"

妥善控制这场危机？“

AT：我觉得一个社区信任彼此

AT: I would say that a community trusts each other.

And that is the main point of digital democracy.

是数字化民主的要点。

This is not about people trusting the government more.

这不是关于人民更信任政府，

This is about the government trusting the citizens more,

而是关于政府更信任民众，

making the state transparent to the citizen,

国家要对市民更公开透明，

not the citizen transparent to the state,

而不是市民对国家更公开，

这会是一些其他的政治制度。

which would be some other regime.

So making the state transparent to the citizens

但是国家要对市民更公开透明，

并不总是会引起更多的信任，

doesn't always elicit more trust,

because you may see something wrong, something missing,

因为你可能发现错误的事情，疏忽的地方，

对用户体验完全有害的事情。

something exclusively hostile to its user experience,

an so on, of the state.

以此类推。

So it doesn't necessarily lead to more trust from the government.

所以这不总是赢得对政府的更多信任。

Sorry, from the citizen to the government.

应该是，市民对政府的信任。

But it always leads to more trust between the social sector stakeholders.

但这总是会导致社会部门利益 相关者之间更多的信任。

So I would say the level of trust between the people

我会说人们之间的信任程度

比方说，正在工作的

who are working on, for example,

医疗人员，

medical officers,

and people who are working with the pandemic responses,

以及正在应对这个疫情的人们，

比如生产医疗口罩的人，

people who manufacture medical masks,

and so on,

等等，

这类的所有的人，

all these people,

the trust level between them is very high.

彼此间的信任程度非常高。

And not necessarily they trust the government.

他们不一定都信任政府，

But we don't need that for a successful response.

但是我们不需要那个来 获得成功的回应。

If you ask a random person on the street,

如果你在街上随便问一个路人，

they will say Taiwan is performing so well because of the people.

他们会说台湾的表现如此 出色是因为那些人，

When the CECC tells us to wear the mask,

当疫情指挥中心（CECC）告知 我们要戴口罩时，

we wear the mask.

我们就戴上口罩。

当疫情中心告诉我们不要戴口罩时，

When the CECC tells us not to wear a mask,

比如，如果你需要保持肢体距离，

like, if you are keeping physical distance,

我们还是会戴上口罩。

we wear a mask anyway.

And so because of that,

正因如此，

I think it's the social sector's trust between those different stakeholders

我认为这是社会部门与这些 不同利益相关者之间的信任，

that's the key to the response.

这才是回应疫情的关键。

WPR：我会带着更多问题回来，

WPR: I will come back shortly with more questions,

but I'll leave you guys to continue your conversation.

在这之前我让你们来继续谈话。

AT: Awesome.

AT： 好。

DB: Well, clearly, part of that trust in government

DB： 很明显，民众对于政府的信任

was maybe not there in 2014 during the Sunflower Movement.

并没有体现在2014年的太阳花运动上。

所以跟我说说，

So talk to me about that

and how that led to this, kind of, digital transformation.

你们是如何引向数字化创新的。

AT：确实。

AT: Indeed.

Before March 2014, if you asked a random person on the street in Taiwan,

在2014年3月之前，如果你随便在 台湾街上问一位路人，

比如问他，一位部长----也就是我，有没有可能

like, whether it's possible for a minister -- that's me --

to have their office in a park, literally a park,

将公园作为他的办公室，字面意义上的办公室，

anyone can walk in and talk to me for 40 minutes at a time,

任何人都能走进来和我进行40分钟的谈话。

I'm currently in that park, the Social Innovation Lab,

我现在就在那个公园里，叫做社会创新实验室，

他们会觉得这太疯狂了，对吧？

they would say that this is crazy, right?

No public officials work like that.

没有一位公职人员会这样工作。

但这是因为在2014年的3月18日，

But that was because on March 18, 2014,

hundreds of young activists, most of them college students,

上百名年轻的积极分子，大部分是大学生，

occupied the legislature

占领了立法院，

to express their profound opposition to a trade pact with Beijing

表达他们对与北京达成贸易协议行为

under consideration,

的强烈反对。

and the secretive manner in which it was pushed through the parliament

他们同样反对的是立法机构 秘密通过议会的方式，

by Kuomintang, the ruling party at the time.

以及当时的执政党，国民党。

And so the protesters demanded, very simply,

所以抗议者的要求，非常简单，

就是废弃条约，

that the pact be scraped,

and the government to institute a more transparent ratification process.

并且政府必须制定更透明的批准程序。

And that drew widespread public support.

这些要求得到了民众的广泛支持。

It ended a little more than three weeks later,

这一情况持续到3周后，

after the government promised and agreed

政府承诺并同意了

on the four demands [unclear] of legislative oversight.

立法监督的要求。

之后的投票显示，

A poll released after the occupation

showed that more than 75 percent remained dissatisfied

超过75%的民众仍然不满于

with the ruling government,

执政政府。

illustrating the crisis of trust that was caused by a trade deal dispute.

这阐释了贸易纠纷引起的信任危机。

And to heal this rift and communicate better

为了修复裂痕并更好地

with everyday citizens,

与普通市民沟通，

the administration reached out to the people who supported the occupiers,

政府向支持占领者的人们联系，

for example, the g0v community,

比如g0v零时政府社群，

which has been seeking to improve government transparency

他们一直在寻找提高政府透明化的方法，

through the creation of open-source tools.

通过创造开放资源的工具，

所以， 当时的政府部长蔡玉玲，

And so, Jaclyn Tsai, a government minister at the time,

attended our hackathon

参加了我们的编程马拉松，

and proposed the establishment of novel platforms

并提议成立新颖的平台，

用网上社区来交流政策思想。

with the online community to exchange policy ideas.

And an experiment was born called vTaiwan,

一个叫做 vTaiwan 的实验就此诞生了。

that pioneerly used tools such as Polis,

这个平台使用了例如 Polis 的工具,

允许用户”赞同“或”反对“，但没有回复键。

that allows for "agree" or "disagree" with no Reply button,

that gets people's rough consensus on issues such as crowdfunding,

而这让我们在例如众筹的问题 上得知人们的粗略共识，

equity-based crowdfunding, to be precise,

准确地说，以公平为基准的众筹。

teleworking and many other cyber-related legislation,

这种远程工作以及其他基于网络的法规，

of which there is no existing unions or associations.

不存在于任何一家协会或联盟。

And it proved to be very successful.

而且它被证明是非常成功的。

They solved the Uber problem, for example,

它解决了例如优步叫车（Uber) 问题。

and by now, you can call an Uber --

到现在，你可以叫一辆Uber ---

I just called an Uber this week --

我在这周就叫了一辆Uber ---

but in any case, they are operating as taxis.

不管怎么说，他们以出租车经营。

They set up a local taxi company called Q Taxi,

他们建立了一个当地的出租车公司叫 Q Taxi，

and that was because on the platform, people cared about insurance,

这是因为在这个平台上，人们关注保险，

they care about registration,

他们关注法规。

they care about all the sort of, protection of the passengers, and so on.

他们关注所有的关于乘客保护的等等法规。

So we changed the taxi regulations,

所以我们改变了出租车的管制，

and now Uber is just another taxi company

现在Uber就是一家出租车公司

along with the other co-ops.

和其他合作社。

DB: So you're actually, in a way,

DB： 所以你实际上，

在广泛征求法规，然后，实现法规。

crowdsourcing laws that, well, then become laws.

AT: Yeah, learn more at crowd.law.

AT：没错，在crowd.law网站上 可以获得更多信息。

这是个真实的网站。

It's a real website.

DB: So, some might say that this seems easier,

DB：那么，有人或许会说这看起来简单，

because Taiwan is an island,

因为台湾是个岛屿，

that maybe helps you control COVID,

地形可能帮助你们控制疫情，

协助你们推广社会凝聚力，

helps promote social cohesion,

maybe it's a smaller country than some.

或许台湾比一些国家面积更小。

你认为这些能扩展到台湾之外吗？

Do you think that this could be scaled beyond Taiwan?

AT: Well, first of all,

AT：首先，

23 million people is still quite some people.

2300万人口仍然是个大数目。

这不是一个城市，

It's not a city,

as some usually say, you know, "Taiwan is a city-state."

像有些人说的，”台湾是个城市国家。“

Well, 23 million people, not quite a city-state.

2300万人口不是一个城市国家的规模。

还有我想要传达的是，

And what I'm trying to get at,

is that the high population density and a variety of cultures --

我们有高密度人口和多种文化 ----

we have more than 20 national languages --

我们我们有超过20种民族语言 ----

doesn't necessarily lead to social cohesion, as you said.

这并不一定导致你说的社会团结。

Rather, I think, this is the humbleness of all the ministers

反而，我认为， 这是所有部长的谦卑，

在对抗新冠病毒中，

in the counter-coronavirus response.

他们都持着"现在我们认识到了严重 急性呼吸系统综合症（SARS）”的态度，

They all took on an attitude of "So we learned about SARS" --

many of them were in charge of the SARS back then,

他们中的很多人都负责着当时的SARS，

但那是典型的流行病学。

but that was classical epidemiology.

This is SARS 2.0, it has different characteristics.

这次是SARS 2.0， 有着不一样的特点。

And the tools that we use are very different,

并且我们使用的工具非常不同，

这归功于数字化改革。

because of the digital transformation.

And so we are in it to learn together with the citizens.

所以，我们与市民一起学习。

Our vice president at the time,

我们那的副总统，

程建人教授，是一名院士，

Dr. Chen Chien-jen, an academician,

literally wrote the textbook on epidemiology.

他真的编写了一本流行病学的教科书，

However, he still says,

但是，他仍旧说，

“你知道，我想做的是记录大规模的 在线公开课程 (MOOC),

"You know, what I'm going to do is record an online MOOC,

a crash course on epidemiology,

一个关于流行病学的速成班，

那个课程共享给了，

that shares with,

I think, more than 20,00 people enrolled the first day,

我认为，第一天有超过2000人加入，

我就是其中之一，

I was among them,

去学习重要的观点，

to learn about important ideas,

like the R0 and the basic transmission

例如R0基本传染数，

以及各种不同的措施如何运作，

and how the various different measures work,

and then they asked people to innovate.

接着，他们要求大家要创新，

If you think of a new way that the vice president did not think of,

如果你能想出副总统没有想出的新办法，

just call 1922,

只要拨打 1922，

and your idea will become the next day's press conference.

你的想法就会出现在隔天的记者会上。

And this is this colearning strategy,

这种共同学习的策略，

I think, that more than anything enabled the social cohesion,

我想，比任何事都能增强社会凝聚力，

as you speak.

就像你所说的。

But this is more of a robust civil society than the uniformity.

但这更像是一个强大的公民社会， 而不是总是一致的。

There's no uniformity at all in Taiwan,

台湾的意见完全不一致，

everybody is entitled to their ideas,

每个人都有自己的想法，

and all the social innovations,

所有的社会创新，

ranging from using a traditional rice cooker

从使用传统的电饭煲

to revitalize, to disinfect the mask,

到复兴，消毒口罩，

到粉红色的口罩，等等，

to pink medical mask, and so on,

there's all variety of very interesting ideas

有各式各样有趣的主意，

that get amplified by the daily press conference.

通过每日新闻放大。

DB：那真美好。

DB: That's beautiful.

现在 -- 哦，Whitney 回来了，

Now -- oh, Whitney is back,

so I will let her ask the next question.

我会让她来回答下一个问题。

WPR: Sure, we're having some more questions come in.

WPR：好的，我们还有更多问题。

One from our community member Aria Bendix.

其中一个是来自我们的社区成员 阿莉雅 · 本迪克斯 (Aria Bendix)。

Aria asked, "How do you ensure that digital campaigns act quickly

她问，”你们如何保证数字化运动的快速执行，

同时不牺牲准确度？“

without sacrificing accuracy?

In the US, there was a fear of inciting panic about COVID-19

在美国，人们对新冠病毒产生了恐慌，

in early January."

在一月初。”

AT: This is a great question.

AT：这是一个很好的问题。

所以大部分关于新冠的 科学观点都在进化，对吧？

So most of the scientific ideas about the COVID are evolving, right?

例如，口罩的功效就是一个很好的例子。

The efficacy of masks, for example, is a very good example,

because the different characteristics of previous respiratory diseases

因为之前的呼吸道疾病有着不同的特征，

respond differently to the facial mask.

口罩对此的作用不同。

所以，我们的数字化运动

And so, our digital campaigns

专注于达成初步共识的想法。

focus on the idea of getting the rough consensus through.

So basically, it's a reflection of the society,

所以基本上，这是社会的反映，

through Polis, through Slido, through the joint platform,

通过Polis，通过Slido(一个网上投票平台）， 通过这些连接平台，

the various tools that vTaiwan has prototyped,

这些各式各样的vTaiwan用作雏形的工具，

我们认识到人们对事物的大致看法，

we know that people are feeling a rough consensus about things

and we're responding to the society, saying,

我们回应社会说，

"This is what you all feel

“这是你们所有人的感受，

我们打算这么做来回应你们的感受。

and this is what we're doing to respond to your feelings.

And the scientific consensus is still developing,

科学上的共识仍在发展。

但是我们知道，例如，

but we know, for example,

people feel that wearing a mask mostly protects you,

人们觉得戴口罩最能保护自己，

because it reminds you to not touch your face

因为它能提醒你不要触碰你的脸，

and wash your hands properly."

并且要好好洗手。

And these, regardless of everything else,

先不管其他，

are the two things that everybody agrees with.

这两件事是大家都同意的。

So we just capitalize on that and say,

所以我们就利用它们，说，

"OK, wash your hands properly,

”好，要好好洗手，

并且不要触碰你的脸，

and don't touch your face,

and wearing a mask reminds you of that."

戴口罩能提醒你这些事。“

这种做法让我们可以解决

And that lets us cut through

the kind of, very ideologically charged debates

那些思想上很激烈的辩论，

专注于人与人之间产生共鸣的东西。

and focus on what people generally resonate with one another.

这就是为什么我们能迅速行动， 又不牺牲科学正确性。

And that's how we act quickly without sacrificing scientific accuracy.

WPR：下一个问题与这个有些关联。

WPR: And this next question sort of feels connected to this as well.

It's a question from an anonymous community member.

问题来自于一位匿名社会成员。

"Pragmatically, do you think any of your policies

“以务实的角度，你认为你们的政策

could be applied in the United States under the current Trump administration?"

能在美国现任总统川普的领导下实施吗？”

AT: Quite a few, actually.

AT：实际上有很多可以。

We work with many states in the US and abroad

我们与美国和国外的许多州合作。

on what we call "epicenter to epicenter diplomacy." (Laughs)

我们称之为”中心与中心外交“。

So what we're doing essentially is,

所以我们要做的基本上是，

例如，台湾有个聊天机器人，

for example, there was a chat bot in Taiwan

that lets you, but especially people under home quarantine,

这让你，尤其是那些被隔离在家的人，

to ask the chat bot anything.

问聊天机器人任何事。

And if there is a scientific adviser

如果有科学顾问

who already wrote a frequently asked question,

已经编写好了常见问题，

能让机器人回答，

the chat bot just responds with that,

but otherwise, they will call the science advisory board

不然的话，他们会致电科学顾问委员会

and write an accessible response to that,

撰写相应的会应，

and the spokesdog would translate that into a cute dog meme.

发言人则会把它翻译成可爱小狗迷因。

这个回馈循环

And so this feedback cycle

of people very easily accessing, finding, and asking a scientist,

让大家很容易可以接触，找到，咨询科学家。

and an open API that allows for voice assistance

还附有开放 的API 供语音助理使用，

and other third-party developers to get through it,

其他的第三方开发者也能取用它，

这与美国许多州产生共鸣，

resonates with many US states,

and I think many of them are implementing it.

我认为他们中的许多人正在实施这项计划。

在世界卫生大会之前，我想，三天前，

And before the World Health Assembly, I think three days before,

we held a 14 countries [unclear] lateral meeting,

我们举行了14个国家的横向会议，

kind of, pre-WHA,

有点像WHA前会议，

where we shared many small, like, quick wins like this.

会中我们分享了一些类似这些的小成功。

And I think many jurisdictions took some of that,

我相信有许多司法管辖区 从中采取了一些措施，

including the humor versus rumor.

包括幽默对决谣言。

Many of them said

他们中的很多人说，

that they're going to recruit comedians now.

他们也准备招聘喜剧演员了。

WPR: (Laughs) I love that.

WPR：（笑）我喜欢这点。

DB: I hope so.

DB：希望如此。

WPR: I hope so too.

WPR: 我也希望如此。

And we have one more question, which is actually a follow-up,

我还有一个问题，实际上这是个后续跟进，

from Michael Backes, who asked a question earlier.

来自先前发问的迈克尔 · 贝克斯 （Michael Backes).

"Does the Ministry plan to publish their plans in a white paper?"

”“政府是否打算把他们的计划 以白皮书的形式出版？”

听起来你们已经在和大家分享你们的计划了。

Sounds like you're already sharing your plans with folks,

但你们是否有打算以书面形式出版？

but do you have a plan to put it out on paper?

AT: 当然。

AT: Of course.

是的，且是数本白皮书。

Yeah, and multiple white papers.

在 taiwancanhelp.us 网站上

So if you go to taiwancanhelp.us,

可以看到我们大部分的策略，

that is where most of our strategy is,

and that website is actually crowdsourced as well,

那个网站也是群众外包的，

and it shows that more than five million now, I think,

上面显示，我认为，有超过500万

medical masks donated to the humanitarian aid.

口罩捐给了人道主义援助。

它也是众包的。

It's also crowdsourced.

People who have some masks in their homes,

家里有口罩的人，

如果没有拿分配的口罩，

who did not collect the rationed masks,

那么他们能用一个应用程序，说，

they can use an app, say,

"I want to dedicate this to international humanitarian aid,"

“我想把口罩捐给国际人道主义援助，”

and half of them choose to publish their names,

他们中过半选择公开他们的名字，

所以你也能看到参与这个捐献的人名。

so you can also see the names of people who participated in this.

And there's also an "Ask Taiwan Anything" website,

还有一个“问台湾任何事”的网站，

(Laughs)

at fightcovid.edu.tw,

（笑）

在 fightcovid.edu.tw,

that outlines, in white paper form, all the response strategies,

以白皮书的形式概述了所有的应对策略，

so check those out.

所以去看看这些吧。

WPR：太好了。

WPR: Great.

Well, I will disappear and be back later with some other questions.

我先告退了，等会儿再带着其他问题来。

DB: A blizzard of white papers, if you will.

DB：可说是有大量的白皮书。

我想要把焦点稍微转到你身上。

I'd like to turn the focus on you a little bit.

一个保守的无政府主义者怎么会变成数字化大臣？

How does a conservative anarchist become a digital minister?

AT: Yeah, by occupying the parliament, and through that.

AT：对啊，通过占领国会。

(Laughs)

（笑）

More interestingly,

更有趣的是，

我会说我和政府一起做事，

I would say that I go working with the government,

but never for the government.

但从来不是为政府做事。

我和人民一起做事，但不是为人民做事。

And I work with the people, not for the people.

我就像是拉格朗日点（平动点），

I'm like this Lagrange point

between the people's movements on one side

一边是人民的运动，

and the government on the other side.

另一边是政府。

Sometimes right in the middle,

有时在中间，

trying to do some coach or translation work.

试着做一些指导或翻译工作。

Sometimes in a kind of triangle point,

有时则像是三角形的点，

trying to supply both sides with tools for prosocial communication.

试图提供双方工具来促进和谐社会的沟通，

但要一直持有

But always with this idea

of getting the shared values out of different positions,

从不同立场，各种立场，

得到共同价值观的想法。

out of varied positions.

Because all too often,

因为，太多时候，

democracy is built as a showdown between opposing values.

民主在对立价值观的较量下建立起来。

But in the pandemic, in the infodemic,

但在疫情时，假讯息大流行时，

in climate change,

在气候变化时，

in many of those structural issues,

在许多结构性问题上，

the virus or carbon dioxide doesn't sit down and negotiate with you.

病毒或是二氧化碳不会坐下与你协商。

正是这种结构性问题需要共同价值

It's a structural issue that requires common values

built out of different positions.

建立在不同立场上。

And so that is why my working principle is radical transparency.

所以这就是为什么我的工作准则是极度透明。

每次对话，包括这次，

Every conversation, including this one,

都记录在案，

is on the record,

including the internal meetings that I hold.

包括我召开的内部会议。

So you can see all the different meeting transcripts

所以你可以看到所有不同的会议记录

在我的Youtube频道上，SayIt 平台上，

in my YouTube channel, in the SayIt platform,

where people can see, after I became digital minister,

在我成为数字化大臣后，大家可以看到，

I held 1,300 meetings with more than 5,000 speakers,

我与5000多名发言者举行了1300次会议，

有超过26万条观点。

with more than 260,000 utterances.

And every one of them has a URL

每一个会议都有一个网站，

that becomes a social object that people can have a conversation on.

可以成为大家谈论的社会话题。

正因如此，

And because of that,

for example, when Uber's David Plouffe visited me to lobby for Uber,

例如，当优步的大卫普罗菲（David Plouffe) 拜访我并希望为优步游说时，

because of radical transparency,

因为极度透明，

he is very much aware of that,

他非常清楚这一点，

and so he made all the arguments based on public good,

所以他所有的论点都是以公共利益为基础，

based on sustainability, and things like that,

以持续性之类为基础，

because he knows that the other sides would see his positions

因为他知道对方会看到他的立场，

very clearly and transparently.

非常清楚、透明地看到这点。

那就会鼓励大家去讨论彼此的论据，

So that encourages people to add on each other's argument,

instead of attacking each other's person,

而不是对彼此做人身攻击，

you know, credits and things like that.

比如攻击对方的信用等等。

And so I think that, more than anything,

所以，我认为，最重要的主要原则是:

is the main principle of conserving the anarchism of the internet,

保留网路的无政府主义，

which is about, you know,

是关于，你知道，

nobody can force anyone to hook to the internet,

没人能强迫任何人上网，

or to adhere to a new internet protocol.

或者遵守新的互联网协议。

Everything has to be done using rough consensus and running code.

所有的事情必须用粗略的共识和运行代码来完成。

DB：我希望你们在世界各地有更多的同行。

DB: I wish you had more counterparts all around the world.

Maybe you wish you had more counterparts all around the world.

或许你希望在世界各地有更多的同行。

AT: That's why these ideas are worth spreading.

AT：这才是为什么这些想法值得传播。

DB: 没错。

DB: There you go.

因此，这些数字化工具可能会带来的挑战之一

So one of the challenges that might arise with some of these digital tools

is access.

就是享有权。

How do you approach that part of it

对于这一部分，你该如何处理

for folks maybe who don't have the best broadband connection

那些没有高质量网络连接条件的人，

or the latest mobile phone or whatever it might be that's required?

没有最新的手机或是其它必备品的人？

AT: Well, anywhere in Taiwan,

AT：在台湾的任何地方，

就算是在台湾最高的四千尺高度，

even on the top of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high,

the Saviah, or the Jade Mountain,

也就是玉山的山顶，

you're guaranteed to have 10 megabits per second

都保证有速度每秒10兆的网络，

通过4G或是光纤或是电缆。

over 4G or fiber or cable,

with just 16 US dollars a month, an unlimited plan.

而且一个月只要16美金， 是一个无限计划。

And actually, on the top of the mountain, it's faster,

事实上，在山顶上，网络速度更快，

fewer people use that bandwidth.

使用这种宽带的人更少。

如果你没有，那是我的错

And if you don't, it's my fault.

是我个人的错。

It's personally my fault.

In Taiwan, we have broadband as a human right.

在台湾，我们将宽带作为一项人权。

And so when we're deploying 5G,

而且当我们在使用5G时，

we're looking at places where the 4G has the weakest signal,

我们会去找4G 讯号最弱的地方，

and we begin with those places in our 5G deployment.

我们的5G网络部署会从那些地方开始。

只有把宽带作为一项人权

And only by deploying broadband as a human right

我们才能说这是为所有人准备的。

can we say that this is for everybody.

数字化民主实际上加强了民主。

That digital democracy actually strengthens democracy.

不然的话，我们会成为被社会排斥的人。

Otherwise, we would be excluding parts of the society.

And this also applies to, for example,

这个同样应用于，比如，

you can go to a local digital opportunity center

你能到一个本地的数码机会中心，

to rent a tablet that's guaranteed

去租借一台平板电脑，

to be manufactured in the past three years,

保证是在过去三年里制造的，

and things like that,

这样的事情，

也能够实施数字化享有权

to enable, also, the different digital access

by the digital opportunity centers, universities and schools,

通过数码机会中心，大学，和学校，

and public libraries, very important.

还有公共图书馆，这非常重要。

And if people who prefer to talk in their town hall,

如果人们更倾向在他们的市政厅交流，

I personally go to that town hall with a 360 recorder,

我个人去市政厅时会带一个360录像机，

and livestream that to Taipei and to other municipalities,

把情况直播给台北和其他市，

where the central government's public servants can join

那些地方的中央政府公务员

in a connected room style,

就可以一起加入，

but listening to the local people who set the agenda.

但是要听当地人的意见，

So people still do face-to-face meetings,

人们还是要面对面开会。

we're not doing this to replace face-to-face meetings.

我们这样做不是为了取代面对面的会谈。

We're bringing more stakeholders

我们带来了更多利益相关者

from central government in the local town halls,

从中央政府到地方市政厅，

我们在放大他们的声音

and we're amplifying their voices

通过文字记录，思维导图，还有之类的方式

by making sure the transcripts, the mind maps, and things like that

在互联网上实时传播，

are spread through the internet in real time,

but we don't ever ask the elderly to, say,

但我们从来都不要求老人，说，

"Oh, you have to learn typing, otherwise you don't do democracy."

“哦，你必须学会打字， 不然你就不能参与民主。”

It's not our style.

这不是我们的作风。

但那个需要宽带。

But that requires broadband.

因为如果你没有宽带，或是宽带有限，

Because if you don't have broadband, but only a very limited bandwidth,

你只能用文字类的通讯。

you are forced to use text-based communication.

DB: That's right.

DB：对的。

Well, with access, of course,

那么，有了(网络)享有权，当然，

comes access for folks who maybe will misuse the platform.

就有人会滥用这个网络平台。

You talked a little bit about disinformation

你提到过一些关于虚假信息，

还有幽默对决谣言。

and using humor to beat rumor.

But sometimes, disinformation is more weaponized.

但有时候，虚假信息被更加武器化。

你如何与这种攻击方式斗争？

How do you combat those kinds of attacks, really?

AT: Right, so you mean malinformation, then.

AT：对，你指的是恶意虚假信息。

So essentially, information designed to cause intentional public harm.

本质上，这些信息旨在造成故意的公共伤害。

And that's no laughing matter.

这不是开玩笑。

对于这个，我们有一个主意叫“告示和公告”。

So for that, we have an idea called "notice and public notice."

So this is a Reuters photo,

这是路透社的照片，

我会读出原标题。

and I will read the original caption.

原来的标题说

The original caption says

"A teenage extradition bill protester in Hong Kong

“香港有一位抗议引渡法案的少年

is seen during a march to demand democracy and political reform in Hong Kong."

在一次游行中要求香港的民主和政治改革。”

好吧，路透社一个非常中性的标题。

OK, a very neutral title by the Reuters.

But there was a spreading of malinformation

但恶意信息的传播，

back last November,

在去年11月，

just leading to our presidential election,

和我们的总统选举有关，

that shows something else entirely.

内容完全不同。

这是同一张照片，上面写着

This is the same photo -- that says

"This 13-year-old thug bought new iPhones,

“这位十三岁小混混买了新的 iPhone,

game consoles and brand-name sports shoes,

游戏机和名牌运动鞋，

and recruiting his brothers to murder police

并且招募他的兄弟一同去杀警察，

and collect 200,000 dollars."

获得二十万美金。”

And this, of course, is a weapon designed to sow discord,

当然，这是一种武器，专门设计来种下争端，

and to elicit in Taiwan's voters a kind of distaste for Hong Kong.

造成台湾的投票者产生对香港的厌恶。

And because they know that this is the main issue.

因为他们知道这是主要争议。

如果我们采取行动，

And had we resorted to takedowns,

that will not work,

这不会起作用，

because that would only evoke more outrage.

因为那只会引发更多愤怒。

所以我们没有下架信息。

So we didn't do a takedown.

Instead, we worked with the fact checkers

而是与事实核查者

and professional journalists

以及专业记者合作，

把这原始信息追溯到它 第一次被公布出来的地方。

to attribute this original message back to the first day that it was posted.

And it came from Zhongyang Zhengfawei.

它来自中央政法委。

That is the main political and legal unit of the central party,

那是中国共产党（CCP）的

in the Central Communist Party, in CCP.

主要政治与法律单位。

And we know that it's their Weibo account that first did this new caption.

我们知道，是他们的微博账号发布的标题。

所以我们发表了一份公告，

So we sent out a public notice

and with the partners in social media companies,

还有社交媒体的合作伙伴，

pretty much all of them,

几乎全都通知了，

他们只要放一个很小的提示

they just put this very small reminder

next to each time that this is shared with the wrong caption,

在每次用错误的标题分享这篇文章时，

that says "This actually came from the central propaganda unit

写上“这篇文章实际上来自中国共产党

of the CCP.

中央宣传部。

Click here to learn more. To learn about the whole story."

若要了解更多，点击这里，获悉整个故事。”

And that, we found, that has worked,

我们发现，这个方法已经生效了，

because people understand this is then not a news material.

因为人们知道这不是一则新闻。

This is rather an appropriation of Reuters' news material

而是盗用了路透社的新闻材料

以及版权侵犯。

and a copyright infringement

and I think that's part of the [unclear].

我认为这是【不清楚】的一部分。

In any case, the point is that when people understand

不管怎样，关键是当人们理解

that this is an intentional narrative,

这是刻意捏造的故事，

they won't just randomly share it.

他们就不会随意分享它。

They may share it, but with a comment that says

他们可能会分享，但会加上注解：

"This is what the Zhongyang Zhengfawei is trying to do to our democracy."

“中央政法委会试图对我们的民主做这种事。”

DB：看来有些全球社交媒体公司

DB: Seems like some of the global social media companies

could learn something from notice and public notice.

可以从“通告与公众通告”中得知。

AT: Public notice, that's right.

AT：公众通告，是的。

DB: What advice would you have

DB：你能否提供些建议

给推特，脸书，Line, WhatsApp

for the Twitters and Facebooks and LINEs and WhatsApps,

and you name it, of the world?

以及其他这类公司？

AT: Yeah.

AT：好的。

So, just before our election,

在我们选举之前，

我们对这里所有的公司说，

we said to all of them

that we're not making a law to kind of punish them.

我们不会制定法律来惩罚他们。

然而，我们要分享一个非常简单的事情：

However, we're sharing this very simple fact

that there is this norm in Taiwan

在台湾，我们有种规矩，

that we even have a separate branch of the government,

我们的政府甚至有专门独立的机构

the control branch,

监察的机构，

that published the campaign donation and expense.

负责分发活动捐款和费用。

And it just so occurred to us

于是我们想到，

that in the previous election, the mayoral one,

在前次市长选举，

there was a lot of candidates

有很多候选人，

that did not include any social media advertisements

没有把任何社交媒体的宣传费

列入他们交给检察院的费用明细中。

in their expense to the Control Yuan.

所以基本上，这说明有一部分独立资金

And so essentially, that means that there is a separate amount

在政治捐款和费用上躲过了公众审查。

of political donation and expense that evades public scrutiny.

And our Control Yuan published their numbers

我们的检察院发布了他们的金额数，

以原始资料表格发布，

in raw data form,

that is to say, they're not statistics,

这表示了，资料不是统计数字，

but individual records of who donated for what cause,

而是个人记录，谁为了什么理由

when, where,

在何时何地捐款，

and investigative journalists are very happy,

这让调查记者非常高兴，

because they can then make investigative reports

因为他们能做出调查报告，

about the connections between the candidates

关于候选者和资助他们的人

and the people who fund them.

之间的关系。

But they cannot work with the same material

但是他们不能用同样的素材

from the global social media companies.

在全球社交媒体公司里。

So I said, "Look, this is very simple.

所以我说，“看吧，这非常简单。

这是我们的社会规则，

This is the social norm here,

I don't really care about other jurisdictions.

我不在乎其他的辖区。

你可以选择遵守检察院

You either adhere to the social norm that is set by the Control Yuan

and the investigative journalists,

和调查记者设下的社会规则，

or maybe you will face social sanctions.

要不然可能就要面临社会制裁。

And this is not the government mandate,

而且这不是政府授权，

but it's the people fed up with, you know, black box,

而是因为人们受够了，你知道，黑箱操作，

这也是部分太阳花运动的要求。

and that's part of the Sunflower Occupy's demands, also.

And so Facebook actually published in the Ad Library,

脸书实际上在广告文库发表了

I think at that time, one of the fastest response strategies,

我认为，在那时候，最快速的应对策略之一，

基本上每个有虚假广告的人

where everybody who has basically any dark pattern advertisement

会很快被举报，

will get revealed very quickly,

and investigative journalists work with the local civic technologists

调查记者也和当地城市的科技人员合作，

to make sure that if anybody dare to use social media in such a divisive way,

来保证如果有任何人敢以这样 引起不和的方式使用社交媒体，

一个小时内，会有一份报告谴责这种行为。

within an hour, there will be a report out condemning that.

So nobody tried that during the previous presidential election season.

所以没人在之前的总统选举期间尝试。

DB: So change is possible.

DB：所以说改变是可行的。

AT：嗯。

AT: Mhm.

WPR: Hey there, we have some more questions from the community.

WPR：你们好，我们有更多问题来自社区。

There is an anonymous one

这是一位匿名人士

说，”我认为台湾完全不属于全球卫生组织

that says, "I believe Taiwan is outside WHO entirely

and has a 130-part preparation program --

而且有130各步骤的准备方案 --

developed entirely on its own --

完全自行开发 --

to what extent does it credit its preparation

它在多大程度上归功于

建立自己的系统的准备？“

to building its own system?"

AT: Well, a little bit, I guess.

AT：就一点点，我觉得。

We tried to warn the WHO,

我们尝试向全球卫生组织发出警告，

but at that point --

但在那时候 ---

我们没有完全在外， 我们只有有限的科学资源。

we are not totally outside, we have limited scientific access.

But we do not have any ministerial access.

但我们没有任何部长权力。

And this is very different, right?

这是非常不一样的，对吧？

If you only have limited scientific access,

如果你只有有限的科学资源，

unless the other side's top epidemiologist happens to be the vice president,

除非另一边的顶尖流行病学家碰巧是副总统，

like in Taiwan's case,

就像台湾的情况一样,

他们不总是把表面功夫做得足够好

they don't always do the storytelling well enough

to translate that into political action as our vice president did, right?

将其转化为政治行动 就像我们的副总裁一样, 对吧？

So the lack of ministerial access, I think,

所以部长权力的缺失，我认为，

is to the detriment of the global community,

对全球各地是有害的，

because otherwise, people could have responded as we did

因为不然，人们会像我们一样反应，

in the first day of January,

在一月第一天，

instead of having to wait for weeks

不是等待几周，

直到全球卫生组织宣布，

before the WHO declared that this is something,

that there's definitely human to human transmission,

这有东西绝对是依靠人与人之间的传播，

你需要对来自武汉的人检查，

that you should inspect people coming in from Wuhan,

which they eventually did,

他们最终这么做了，

but that's already two weeks or three weeks after what we did.

但这是在我们已经行动的2-3周后才做的。

WPR: 很有道理。

WPR: Makes a lot of sense.

DB: More scientists and technologists in politics.

DB：更多的科学家和技术人员出现在政治领域。

That sounds like that's the answer.

听起来这就是答案。

AT: Yeah.

AT：是啊。

WPR: And then we have another question here from Kamal Srinivasan

WPR： 现在是来自卡马尔 ·斯里尼瓦桑（Kamal Srinivasan）的问题，

about your reopening strategy.

关于你们的重新开放策略。

"How are you enabling restaurants and retailers to open safely in Taiwan?"

“你们如何确保餐厅和零售商在台湾的安全营业？”

AT: Oh, they never closed, so ... (Laughs)

AT: 啊，他们从来都没停业，所以...（笑）

WPR: Oh!

WPR：啊！（惊讶)

AT: Yeah, they never closed,

AT： 对，他们从未关闭，

there was no lockdown, there was no closure.

没有封锁，没有停业。

We just said a very simple thing in the CECC press conference,

我们在CECC新闻发布会上说得很简单，

that there's going to be physical distancing.

将会有肢体距离。

你需要在室内保持1.5米的距离

You maintain one and a half meters indoors

or wear a mask.

或者戴口罩。

And that's it.

就这样。

有些餐厅放了，我猜，红色帘子，

And so there are some restaurants that put up, I guess, red curtains,

有些放了很可爱的泰迪熊等等物品在椅子上，

some put very cute teddy bears and so on, on the chairs,

to make sure that people spread evenly,

确保人们均匀分布，

还有些餐厅安装了可视玻璃或塑料墙

some installed see-through glass or plastic walls

between the seats.

在座位之间。

There's various social innovations happening around.

周围发生着各种各样的社会创新。

And I think the only shops that got closed for a while,

并且我认为唯一停业的商店，

because they could not innovate quick enough to respond to these rules,

正因为他们不能快速创新来应对这些规则，

was the intimate escort bars.

是那些亲密的陪酒酒吧。

But eventually, even they invented new ways,

但最终，他们也发明了新方法，

by handing out these caps that are plastic shielding,

通过分发拥有塑料外壳的杯具，

but still leaves room for drinking behind it.

而且留有可供饮用的空间。

And so they opened with that social innovation.

所以他们靠这个发明开业了。

DB: That's amazing.

DB：太棒了。

WPR: It is, yeah, it's a lot to learn from your strategies there.

WPR：是的，从你说的策略里我们能学到很多。

Thank you, I'll be back towards the end with some final questions.

谢谢。 我会在接近尾声时送来更多问题。

DB：很高兴听到餐馆没有关门，

DB: I'm very happy to hear that the restaurants were not closed down,

because I think Taipei has some of the best food in the world

因为我认为台北在我去过的任何城市中

有着世界上最好吃的食物之一。

of any city that I've visited,

so, you know, kudos to you for that.

所以，你知道，为你感到荣幸。

因此，在使用数字化工具应对新冠，

So the big concern when it comes to using digital tools for COVID

or using digital tools for democracy

或为了民主使用数字化工具时，

is always privacy.

隐私是一个很大的担忧。

You've talked about that a little bit,

关于这个你提到过一点，

但我相信台湾的市民

but I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan

可能也同样关心自己的隐私，

are perhaps equally concerned about their privacy,

特别是考虑到地理政治背景。

especially given the geopolitical context.

AT: Definitely.

DB: So how do you cope with those demands?

AT: 当然。

DB：所以你们如何应对这些需求？

AT：是啊，我们不仅设计了防范措施，

AT: Yeah, we design with not only defensive strategy,

like minimization of data collection,

例如最小化的数据收集，

but also proactive measures,

还有积极主动的措施，

比如加强隐私的技术。

such as privacy-enhancing technologies.

One of the top teams that emerged out of our cohack,

从我们的合作中脱颖而出的顶级团队之一，

the TW response from the Polis,

来自Polis平台的TW回应，

如何更方便地跟踪联系人，

how to make contact tracing easier,

不是关注于跟踪者，

focused not on the contact tracers,

not on the medical officers, but on the person.

也不是关注医务人员， 而是在于被跟踪的人。

总之他们会说，“好吧，你有一部手机，

So they basically said, "OK, you have a phone,

you can record your temperatures,

你能记录你的体温，

you can record your whereabouts and things like that,

你能记录你的行踪或是其他事情，

but that is strictly in your phone.

但这些信息严格保存在你的手机上。

It doesn't even use Bluetooth.

不使用蓝牙，

So there's no transmission.

所以信息没有传播。

这个技术使用开放来源，

Technology uses open-source,

you can check it, you can use it in airplane mode.

你能检查它，你能在飞行模式时使用它。

And when the contact tracer eventually tells you

当跟踪人员最终告诉你，

that you are part of a high-risk group,

你属于（新冠）高危人群，

and they really want your contact history,

他们非常需要你接触过的人员历史记录，

this tool can then generate a single-use URL

这个工具能生成一个一次性网址（URL）

that only contains the precise information,

这个网址只包含了跟踪者所需要的，

匿名的，

anonymized,

that the contact tracers want.

明确信息。

But it will not, like in a traditional interview,

但这不会像传统的面谈，

让你回答 ---

let you ask --

they ask a question, they only want to know your whereabouts,

他们问问题，只想知道你的行踪记录，

but you answer with such accuracy

但你回答的准确性如此之高

that you end up compromising other people's privacy.

以至于最终妥协，说出他人的隐私。

So basically, this is about designing

所以基本上，这是关于

with an aim to enhance other people's privacy,

旨在提高他人的隐私的设计。

because personal data is never truly personal.

因为个人信息从来都不是真正私人的。

It's always social, it's always intersectional.

它总是社交性的，互相关联的。

If I take a selfie at a party,

如果我在派对上拍一张自拍，

I inadvertently also take pretty much everybody else's

我不经意间也拍下了别人

who are in the picture, the surroundings, the ambiance, and so on,

谁在照片里，周围是什么，气氛等等，

and if I upload it to a cloud service,

如果我把这张照片上传到一个云端设备，

then I actually decimate the bargaining power,

那么我实际上降低了议价能力，

the negotiation power of everybody around me,

以及我周围每个人的谈判权，

because then their data is part of the cloud,

因为他们的信息也是云端的一部分，

and the cloud doesn't have to compensate them

云端不必补偿他们

or get their agreement for it.

或是得到他们的同意。

And so only by designing the tools

所以只有通过设计工具

with privacy enhancing as a positive value,

以提高隐私为积极价值,

and not enhancing only the person's own privacy,

不仅增强个人的隐私，

just like a medical mask, it protects you,

像是医用口罩，它保护了你，

but mostly it also protects others, right?

也在大多数情况下保护他人，对不对？

So if we design tools using that idea,

所以如果我们用这个想法设计工具，

and always open-source and with an open API,

并且始终是开源的，并带有开放的API，

then we're in a much better shape

那么我们的状况要比

集中式或所谓的基于云端的服务好得多。

than in centralized or so-called cloud-based services.

DB：嗯，你显然生活在未来，

DB: Well, you're clearly living in the future,

and I guess that's quite literal,

并且也不只是各比喻，

in the sense of, it's tomorrow morning there.

在某种意义上，你那边已经是明天早上。

AT: Twelve hours.

AT：12小时。

DB: Yes.

DB：是的。

Tell me, what do you see in the future?

告诉我，你觉得未来会是怎样的？

What comes next?

接下来是什么?

AT: Yes, so I see the coronavirus as a great amplifier.

AT: 是的，我认为新冠病毒是一个很好的放大器。

如果你从一个专制社会开始，

If you start with an authoritarian society,

新冠病毒，以及它带来的封锁等等，

the coronavirus, with all its lockdowns and so on,

has the potential of making it even a more totalitarian society.

有可能造就一个更加极权主义的社会。

If people place their trust, however,

但是，如果人们将他们的信任

托付于社会各部门上，

on the social sector,

on the ingenuity of social innovators,

相信着社会创新者的创造力，

then the pandemic, as in Taiwan,

那么这个流行病，在台湾，

实际上加强了民主，

actually strengthens our democracy,

so that people feel, truly, that everybody can think of something

所以人们能真正感受到，所有人都在

that improves the welfare of not just Taiwan,

想一些可以提高福利的事情，不只是台湾，

but pretty much everybody else in the world.

还有世界上几乎所有人。

And so, my point here

所以，我的观点是

is that the great amplifier comes if no matter you want it or not,

无论你是否想要，这个放大器都会出现，

but the society, what they can do, is do what Taiwan did after SARS.

但是社会可以做的，是台湾 在非典之后所做的事情。

在2003年，当非典发生时，

In 2003, when SARS came,

we had to shut down an entire hospital,

我们不得不关闭整个医院，

barricading it with no definite termination date.

没有明确中止日期地封锁起来。

It was very traumatic,

这是非常痛苦难忘的，

everybody above the age of 30 remembers how traumatic it was.

所有30岁以上的人都记得那有多痛苦。

The municipalities

市府

and the central government were saying very different things,

和中央政府说的话很不一样，

这就是为什么非典之后，

and that is why after SARS,

the constitutional courts charged the legislature

宪法法院指控了立法机关，

建立了你今天看到的系统，

to set up the system as you see today,

and also that is why,

这也是为什么，

when people responding to that crisis back in 2003

当人们在2003年应对危机时

built this very robust response system that there's early drills.

建立了一个非常强大的响应系统， 可以进行早期的演练。

So just as the Sunflower Occupy,

就像当太阳花运动，

because of the crisis in trust let us build new tools

因信任危机而使我们创建

that put trust first,

以信任为先的工具时，

I think the coronavirus is the chance for everybody who have survived

我认为新冠病毒是一个让

所有在第一波中幸存下来的每个人

through the first wave

to settle on a new set of norms that will reinforce your founding values,

制定一套新的准则来巩固创始价值的机会，

instead of taking on alien values in the name of survival.

而不是以生存的名义承担的价值不同的价值观。

DB: Yeah, let's hope so,

DB：对，我希望如此，

and let's hope the rest of the world is as prepared as Taiwan

让我们希望世界其他地方下次像台湾一样

准备充分。

the next time around.

不过，涉及数字化民主，

When it comes to digital democracy, though,

and digital citizenship,

和数字化公民权，

where do you see that going,

你在台湾甚至在世界其他地方

both in Taiwan and maybe in the rest of the world?

如何看待？

AT: Well, I have my job description here,

AT：好，我这里有我的职位描述，

我会读给你听。

which I will read to you.

It's literally my job description and the answer to that question.

这真的是我的职位说明以及对那个问题的答案。

And so, here goes.

那么，开始吧。

当我们以事物的角度看待互联网时，

When we see the internet of things,

让我们把它变成以人为本的互联网。

let's make it the internet of beings.

当我们看到虚拟现实时，

When we see virtual reality,

let's make it a shared reality.

让我们把它变成共享现实。

When we see machine learning,

当我们看到机器学习时，

let's make it collaborative learning.

让我们把它变成协作学习。

When we see user experience,

当我们看到使用者体验时，

let's make it about human experience.

让我们把它变成个人体验。

And whenever we hear the singularity is near,

每当我们听见”单一节点“接近时，

let us always remember

让我们时刻记住，

大众也应该在那里。

the plurality is here.

Thank you for listening.

谢谢你的收听。

DB: Wow.

DB: 哇哦。

I have to give that a little clap,

我得给这个鼓掌，

that was beautiful.

说得太漂亮了。

(Laughs)

（笑）

职位描述也很不错。

Quite a job description too.

So, conservative anarchist,

所以，保守的无政府主义者，

digital minister, and with that job description --

数字化大臣，还有那个职位描述 --

真令人印象深刻。

that's pretty impressive.

AT: A poetician, yes.

AT：是的，一位诗人。

DB：（笑）

DB: (Laughs)

So I struggle to imagine

所以我很难想象

an adoption of these techniques in the US,

在美国采用了这些技术会是什么样子，

and that may be my pessimism weighing in.

这可能是我的悲观情绪加重了。

But what words of hope do you have for the US, as we cope with COVID?

当我们应对COVID时， 你对美国有什么希望说的话呢？

AT: Well, as I mentioned, during SARS in Taiwan,

AT：嗯，想我提到的，在台湾经历非典期间，

nobody imagined we could have CECC and a cute spokesdog.

没人想象得到我们会有中央流行病 指挥中心（CECC）和一位可爱的发言人

在太阳花运动之前，一场大型抗议期间，

Before the Sunflower movement, during a large protest,

there was, I think, half a million people on the street, and many more.

那时有，我认为，50万人在街上，甚至更多。

Nobody thought that we could have a collective intelligence system

没人想到我们会有一个集体情报系统

that puts open government data

以收集公开的政府数据

来重建市民参与。

as a way to rebuild citizen participation.

所以，永不放弃希望。

And so, never lose hope.

我最喜欢的歌手，同样也是一名诗人， 里奥纳德·科恩，喜欢说，

As my favorite singer, Leonard Cohen -- a poet, also -- is fond of saying,

“摇响仍然能响的铃铛，

"Ring the bells that still can ring

and forget any perfect offering.

忘却所有完美供奉。

万物皆有裂痕，那是光照进来的地方。”

There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in."

WPR: Wow.

WPR：哇。

真是太美了。

That's so beautiful,

and it feels like such a great message to, sort of, leave the audience with,

感觉就像是传达给观众的伟大寓意，

and sharing the sentiment

还有情感的分享

that everyone seems to be so grateful for what you've shared, Audrey,

所有人似乎都非常感谢你分享的内容，唐先生，

and all the great information and insight into Taiwan's strategies.

以及所有有关台湾战略的信息和见解。

AT: Thank you.

AT：谢谢。

WPR: And David --

WPR：大卫 ---

DB: I was just going to say, thank you so much for that,

DB：我正想说，非常感谢你，

thank you for that beautiful job description,

感谢你优美的职位描述，

and for all the wisdom you shared in rapid-fire fashion.

以及你轰炸般快速分享的智慧。

I think it wasn't just one idea that you shared,

我认为你分享的不仅仅是一个想法，

but maybe, I don't know, 20, 30, 40?

或许，我不清楚，20，30，40个？

I lost count at some point.

我在某个时候记不清了。

AT: Well, it's called Ideas Worth Spreading,

AT：好吧，这叫做值得分享的想法，

it's a plural form.

这是个复数。

(Laughter)

（笑）

DB: Very true.

DB：没错。

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

总之，

WPR：非常感谢你加入我们，唐先生。

WPR: Thank you, Audrey.

DB：祝你一切顺利。

DB: And I wish you luck with everything.

AT: Thank you, and have a good local time.

AT：谢谢，祝你当地时间好。

Stay safe.

注意安全。