How digital innovation can fight pandemics and strengthen democracy | Audrey Tang

審譯者: Helen Chang

唐鳳：非常高興能參與，

大家「當地時間」安。

大衛·比爾羅：跟我們談談——

Audrey Tang: Very happy to be joining you,

抱歉，

跟我們談談數位工具和新型冠狀病毒。

and good local time, everyone.

唐：好的。

David Biello: So, tell us about --

我很高興能和大家分享

Sorry to --

台灣如何成功利用數位民主工具的力量

Tell us about digital tools and COVID.

對抗新型冠狀病毒，

AT: Sure.

Yeah, I'm really happy to share with you

我們知道：越多人參與，民主就越進步。

how Taiwan successfully countered the COVID

而數位科技仍然是 改善參與的最佳方式之一，

using the power of digital democracy tools.

只要能把焦點放在尋找共同點，

As we know, democracy improves as more people participate.

與其反對社群媒體， 不如善用社群媒體。

And digital technology remains one of the best ways to improve participation,

今天我想要分享三個 關於數位民主的關鍵想法：

as long as the focus is on finding common ground,

that is to say, prosocial media instead of antisocial media.

快速、公平、有趣。

And there's three key ideas that I would like to share today

先來談談：快速。

許多國家是今年 才開始對抗新型冠狀病毒，

about digital democracy that is fast, fair and fun.

台灣則是去年就開始了。

去年十二月，當中國的吹哨者李文亮醫生

First about the fast part.

Whereas many jurisdictions began countering coronavirus only this year,

張貼文章談到新的 SARS 案例時，

他受到中國的公安機構質問，

Taiwan started last year.

Last December, when Dr. Li Wenliang, the PRC whistleblower,

最終受到懲罰。

但，同時，

posted that there are new SARS cases,

台灣類似 Reddit 的電子佈告欄 PTT，

he got inquiries and eventually punishments

一位名為 nomorepipe 的使用者

from PRC police institutions.

重新貼出李文亮醫生的吹哨文。

But at the same time,

我們的醫療官員馬上就注意到這篇文章，

the Taiwan equivalent of Reddit, the Ptt board,

並發出命令，

has someone called nomorepipe

要求所有從武漢飛到台灣的乘客，

reposting Dr. Li Wenliang's whistleblowing.

在隔天就要開始接受健康調查，

And our medical officers immediately noticed this post

也就是 2020/01/01。

and issued an order that says

這告訴我兩件事。

all passengers flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan

第一，公民社會夠相信政府，

need to start health inspections the very next day,

足以在公開的討論區 談論潛在的新 SARS 爆發。

which is the first day of January.

而政府也夠相信公民，

And this says to me two things.

足以認真看待它，視之為 SARS 2.0 處理，

First, the civil society trusts the government enough

這是我們從 2003 年之後 就一直在準備的事。

to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in the public forum.

And the government trusts citizens enough

因為這樣開放的公民社會，

to take it seriously and treat it as if SARS has happened again,

根據 CIVICUS Monitor，太陽花事件後，

something we've always been preparing for, since 2003.

台灣現在是全亞洲最開放的社會。

And because of this open civil society,

我們和其他自由民主政體

according to the CIVICUS Monitor after the Sunflower Occupy,

享有同樣的言論、集會自由，

Taiwan is now the most open society in the whole of Asia.

但也強調要以開放的心看待

We enjoy the same freedom of speech, of assembly,

來自社會的新穎想法。

那就是為什麼現在我們的學校 和企業仍然在運作，

[unclear] as other liberal democracies,

but with the emphasis on keeping an open mind

沒有封城，

已經有一個月都沒有本土病例了。

to novel ideas from the society.

And that is why our schools and businesses still remain open today,

再來是快速的部分。

每天中央流行疫情指揮中心 CECC

there was no lockdown,

都會召開記者會，且一定有直播，

it's been a month with no local confirmed cases.

我們和新聞記者合作，

So the fast part.

Every day, our Central Epidemic Command Center, or CECC,

他們會回答所有來自記者的問題，

任何時候有社會性的疫情提議，

holds a press conference, which is always livestreamed,

任何人都可以拿起電話，播打 1922，

and we work with the journalists,

把點子告訴疾管局。

they answer all the questions from the journalists,

比如，四月有一天，

and whenever there's a new idea coming in from the social sector,

有個小男孩說他不想上學，

anyone can pick up their phone and call 1922

因為學校的朋友會嘲笑他，

and tell that idea to the CECC.

因為他只有粉紅色的醫療口罩。

For example, there was one day in April

隔天，

where a young boy has said he doesn't want to go to school

指揮中心記者會上的每個人 都開始戴粉紅的醫療口罩，

because his school mates may laugh at him

because all he had is a pink medical mask.

確保大家都能了解性別主流化。

The very next day,

這種快速反應的系統

everybody in the CECC press conference started wearing pink medical masks,

在政府和公民社會間建立起信任感。

making sure that everybody learns about gender mainstreaming.

第二個焦點就是：公平。

確保人人可以用健保卡

And so this kind of rapid response system

builds trust between the government and the civil society.

到鄰近的藥局買到口罩，

我們不僅會刊出所有藥局的口罩存量，

And the second focus is fairness.

Making sure everybody can use their national health insurance card

共 6,000 家藥局，

資料還會每 30 秒更新一次。

to collect masks from nearby pharmacies,

那就是為什麼我們的公民駭客、 數位世界的公民工程師，

not only do we publish the stock level of masks of all pharmacies,

創造了超過百種工具， 讓大家能夠瀏覽地圖，

6,000 of them,

we publish it every 30 seconds.

或讓視障者能和聊天機器人說話，

That's why our civic hackers, our civil engineers in the digital space,

他們都沒被排擠，同樣能得到

built more than 100 tools that enable people to view a map,

鄰近藥局是否有口罩的資訊。

or people with blindness who talk to chat bots, voice assistants,

因為全民健保納保普及率達 99.9%，

all of them can get the same inclusive access to information

about which pharmacies near them still have masks.

任何有症狀的人

都能夠戴著醫療口罩

And because the national health insurance single payer

到當地的診所，

is more than 99.9 percent of health coverage,

清楚知道他們會被公平對待，

不會有任何財務重擔。

people who show any symptoms

所以有人設計出了一個儀表板，

will then be able to take the medical mask,

讓所有人看到口罩的供應量的確在成長，

go to a local clinic,

knowing fully that they will get treated fairly

抑或是供應過多或不足，

without incurring any financial burden.

讓我們可以和藥局、 整個社會合作，

And so people designed a dashboard

共同設計出這個分佈系統。

that lets everybody see our supply is indeed growing,

根據這項分析，

and whether there's over- or undersupply,

領取人集中在某 70%，

so that we codesign this distribution system

with the pharmacies, with the whole of society.

剩餘其中 20% ，常是工時很長的年輕人，

So based on this analysis,

we show that there was a peak at 70 percent,

當他們下班時，藥局也關門了，

所以我們和便利商店合作，

and that remaining 20 percent of people were often young, work very long hours,

讓大家一天 24 小時都可以取得口罩。

when they go off work, the pharmacies also went off work,

我們確保做到各方面的公平，

and so we work with convenience stores

憑藉的是數位民主的回饋。

so that everybody can collect their mask anytime,

最後，我想這的確是 令人神經緊繃的時期。

24 hours a day.

So we ensure fairness of all kinds,

大家會感到焦慮、憤慨，

based on the digital democracy's feedback.

很多恐慌性購買，

很多陰謀論，在各經濟體中都是如此。

And finally, I would like to acknowledge that this is a very stressful time.

在台灣，

People feel anxious, outraged,

我們對抗假資訊的策略非常簡單。

叫做「用幽默戰勝謠言」。

there's a lot of panic buying,

a lot of conspiracy theories in all economies.

以衛生紙的恐慌性購買為例，

And in Taiwan,

our counter-disinformation strategy is very simple.

當時有謠言說：

「喔，我們要增加口罩量產，

It's called "humor over rumor."

要用的材料和衛生紙一樣，

So when there was a panic buying of tissue paper, for example,

所以我們很快就會沒有衛生紙了。」

而行政院長的因應方式是一張迷因圖片，

there was a rumor that says,

"Oh, we're ramping up mass production,

it's the same material as tissue papers,

我一定要跟大家分享一下。

and so we'll run out of tissue paper soon."

配合非常大的字，

他展示出他的屁股，

And our premier showed a very memetic picture

還會稍稍搖擺，

that I simply have to share with you.

上面的大字寫著：

In very large print,

「我們每個人都只有一對屁股。」

he shows his bottom,

當然，上面有個認真的表格，

wiggling it a little bit,

and then the large print says

說明衛生紙的材料來自南美，

"Each of us only have one pair of buttocks."

而醫療口罩的則來自國內，

And of course, the serious table shows

其一增加產能不會

減少另一者的產能。

that tissue paper came from South American materials,

這張圖被瘋傳。

and medical masks come from domestic materials,

因此，恐慌性購買 在一、兩天內就消失了。

and there's no way that ramping up production of one

will hurt the production of the other.

最後，我們發現一開始 散播這個謠言的人，

And so that went absolutely viral.

是衛生紙的經銷商。

And because of that, the panic buying died down

這並不只是社群媒體上的單一減震點。

in a day or two.

每天，

And finally, we found out the person who spread the rumor in the first place

衛福部的「發言狗」 都會轉譯每日記者會，

was the tissue paper reseller.

And this is not just a single shock point in social media.

會轉譯許多內容。

Every single day,

比如，該保持的實體距離，像是：

the daily press conference gets translated

by the spokesdog of the Ministry of Health and Welfare,

「如果你在戶外， 必須要與人保持兩隻狗的距離；

that translated a lot of things.

在室內，則是三隻狗的距離」等等。

For example, our physical distancing is phrased as saying

還有洗手的規則等等。

"If you are outdoors, you need to keep two dog-lengths away,

因為這些內容都會被瘋傳，

我們確保：以事實為根據的幽默 傳得比謠言快。

if you are indoor, three dog-lengths away," and so on.

它們就像是疫苗、預防接種，

And hand sanitation rules, and so on.

So because all this goes viral,

當大家看到陰謀論時，

we make sure that the factual humor spreads faster than rumor.

陰謀論的基本傳染數就會低於 1，

也就是說那些想法不會散播開來。

And they serve as a vaccine, as inoculation,

我只有這 5 分鐘的簡報，

so that when people see the conspiracy theories,

the R0 value of that will be below one,

接下來就是問答時間了，

但歡迎多閱讀些台灣

meaning that those ideas will not spread.

對抗新型冠狀病毒策略的資訊，

And so I only have this five-minute briefing,

網址是 taiwancanhelp.us。

the rest of it will be driven by your Q and A,

謝謝。

but please feel free to read more

about Taiwan's counter-coronavirus strategy,

比：那真了不起。

我很喜歡「用幽默戰勝謠言」。

at taiwancanhelp.us.

Thank you.

也許，美國的問題

DB: That's incredible.

是謠言的傳播速度 比任何因應措施都快，

And I love this "humor versus rumor."

不論幽默或不幽默。

The problem here in the US, perhaps,

在台灣如何在速度上戰勝謠言？

is that the rumors seem to travel faster than any response,

唐：我們發現，當然，

whether humorous or not.

幽默本身就意味著

How do you defeat that aspect in Taiwan?

把沮喪、憤慨給昇華。

AT: Yeah, we found that, of course,

所以，比如我們行政院長的例子，

humor implicitly means there is a sublimation

可以看到他拿自己開玩笑。

of upsetness, of outrage.

他沒有把幽默建築在他人身上。

And so as you see, for example, in our premier's example,

這是關鍵。

因為大家覺得很好笑，

he makes fun of himself.

他們就會分享，

He doesn't make a joke at the expense of other people.

但沒有惡意或有害的意圖。

大家還會記得真正要傳遞的訊息，

And this was the key.

製造口罩用什麼材料的表格，

Because people think it hilarious,

they share it,

且更容易記得多。

but with no malicious or toxic intentions.

如果他們的玩笑 排除了社會的某部分，

People remember the actual payload,

that table about materials used to produce masks,

當然，那部分的人民會感到憤怒，

much more easily.

最後就會創造出更多不和，

If they make a joke that excludes parts of the society,

而不是利社會的行為。

所以，不消費別人的幽默，

of course, that part of society will feel outraged

不排除社會的任何一部分，

and we will end up creating more divisiveness,

rather than prosocial behavior.

我想那就是關鍵。

So the humor at no expense,

比：還有一點很了不起，

因為台灣和疫情的原點 有如此緊密的關係。

not excluding any part of society,

I think that was the key.

唐：中國，是的。

DB: It's also incredible

比：大陸。

在經濟上有如此密切的關係，

because Taiwan has such close ties to the origin point of this.

你們如何挺過這突發狀況？

AT: PRC, yes.

DB: The mainland.

So given those close economic ties,

唐：在這個時間點，

how do you survive that kind of disruption?

已經近一個月沒有本土病例了，

所以我們還好。

AT: Yeah, I mean, at this moment,

基本上，我們在做的

只是比其他人更快因應。

it's been almost a month now with no local confirmed cases,

我們從去年就開始因應，

so we're doing fine.

其他人多半是今年才開始因應。

And what we are doing, essentially,

is just to respond faster than pretty much anyone.

去年，我們試圖警告世界，但總之……

We started responding last year,

不論如何，

重點是，如果開始得夠早，

whereas pretty much everybody else started responding this year.

就可以確保邊境控制，

We tried to warn the world last year, but, anyway.

把所有返國的居民隔離等等，

So in any case,

the point here is that if you start early enough,

you get to make sure that the border control

而不是等到社區感染的階段，

is the main point where you quarantine all the returning residents and so on,

若等到這個時候，可能不論如何

都得採用更侵犯人權的技術了。

instead of waiting until the community spread stage,

在台灣，我們沒有宣佈任何緊急狀態。

where even more human-right invading techniques

我們完全以憲法為準。

would probably have to be deployed one way or the other.

因此，政府採用的任何措施

And so in Taiwan, we've not declared an emergency situation.

也適用於非新型冠狀病毒的時期。

We're firmly under the constitutional law.

這迫使我們創新。

就很像「我們是個開放 自由民主社會」的想法，

Because of that, every measure the administration is taking

is also applicable in non-coronavirus times.

讓我們不採取直接刪除言論。

And this forces us to innovate.

因此我們得用創新的 「用幽默戰勝謠言」，

Much as the idea of "we are an open liberal democracy"

因為簡單的方法──將線上言論都移除，

不是我們能用的方式。

prevented us from doing takedowns.

我們設計的背景條件並不是封城，

And therefore, we have to innovate of humor versus rumor,

because the easy path, the takedown of online speech,

也會讓我們無法去做任何

is not accessible to us.

非常侵犯隱私的因應系統。

Our design criteria, which is no lockdowns,

在邊境我們也得創新，

also prevented us from doing any, you know,

比如，確保我們有足夠的隔離飯店

或所謂的「電子圍籬」，

very invasive privacy encroaching response system.

把你的手機連結到附近的電信公司，

So we have to innovate at the border,

and make sure that we have a sufficient number of, for example,

確保如果你離開隔離範圍 15 公尺，

quarantine hotels or the so-called "digital fences,"

where your phone is basically connected to the nearby telecoms,

系統就會發送簡訊 給民政單位或警方等等。

and they make sure that if they go out of the 15-meter or so radius,

但因為我們在邊境重視這些措施，

大部分的人還可以正常生活。

an SMS is sent to the local household managers or police and so on.

比：我們來談談這一點。

But because we focus all these measures at the border,

跟我說明一下這些數位工具，

the vast majority of people live a normal life.

以及如何將它們用在疫情上。

唐：好的。

DB: Let's talk about that a little bit.

我剛才有提到三個部分。

So walk me through the digital tools

and how they were applied to COVID.

第一部分是群眾智慧系統。

我們設計了一些線上空間，

AT: Yes.

是避開「回覆」鈕的，

So there's three parts that I just outlined.

The first one is the collective intelligence system.

因為我們知道，只要有回覆鈕，

Through online spaces

大家會專注在彼此的「臉」 （觀點） 而非「書」（事實），

that we design to be devoid of Reply buttons,

若沒有回覆鈕，

because we see that, when there's Reply buttons,

就能匯集群眾智慧，

本著對方向的粗略共識，

people focus on each other's face part, not the book part,

and without "Reply" buttons,

大家會想出因應策略。

you can get collective intelligence

所以我們用了許多新科技，

working out their rough consensus of where the direction is going

比如 Polis，

基本上它是個討論區， 讓你可以贊成或反對

with the response strategies.

彼此的感覺，

So we use a lot of new technologies,

但有即時的分群，

such as Polis,

which is essentially a forum that lets you upvote and downvote

所以如果你上 cohack.tw 網站，

可以看到六大類主題，

each other's feelings,

討論：保護社會弱勢族群、

but with real-time clustering,

so that if you go to cohack.tw,

邁向疫後過渡措施、

管理防疫相關資源等等。

you see six such conversations,

talking about how to protect the most vulnerable people,

大家都可以自由地發言，

並贊同或反對他人的想法。

how to make a smooth transition,

how to make a fair distribution of supplies and so on.

但秘訣在於：我們會讓大家 看到主要的分歧點

And people are free to voice their ideas,

以及主要的共識點，

我們只回應那些 能說服所有意見群組的想法。

and upvote and downvote each other's ideas.

But the trick is that we show people the main divisive points,

這樣會鼓勵大家發表 更兼容並蓄且細緻的想法，

and the main consensual points,

and we respond only to the ideas

且他們發現，在這商議的尾聲，

that can convince all the different opinion groups.

大家其實在大部分的議題上

So people are encouraged to post more eclectic, more nuanced ideas

會和多數的鄰近組別都有共識。

那就是我們所謂的社會委任，

and they discover, at the end of this consultation,

或民主委任，

that everybody, actually, agrees with most things,

這些工具就能提供我們資訊來開發

with most of their neighbors on most of the issues.

對抗疫情的策略，並協助世界。

And that is what we call the social mandate,

or the democratic mandate,

這是第一部分，

稱為：大規模傾聽以達粗略的共識。

that then informs our development of the counter-coronavirus strategy

我已經談過的第二部分 是分配的細目資訊，

and helping the world with such tools.

And so this is the first part,

大家都可以到附近的藥局，

it's called listening at scale for rough consensus.

拿出健保卡，購買 9 個口罩， 若是兒童則可以買 10 個，

The second part I already covered is the distribute ledger,

且幾分鐘後就能在他們的手機上看到

where everybody can go to a nearby pharmacy,

那間藥局的庫存量 真的少了 9 或 10 個。

present their NHI card, buy nine masks, or 10 if you're a child,

如果數字多了 9 或 10 個，

and see the stock level of that pharmacy on their phone

當然，你可以打 1922，

回報有可疑狀況。

actually decreasing by nine or 10 in a couple of minutes.

但這就是參與式的問責性。

這每 30 秒就更新一次。

And if they grow by nine or 10,

彼此相輔相成，共同當責，

of course, you call the 1922,

and report something fishy is going on.

信任感就會因此大增。

But this is participatory accountability.

最後，第三部分，幽默 vs. 謠言，

This is published every 30 seconds.

我認為這裡的重點

So everybody holds each other accountable,

在於當假資訊或陰謀論出現時，

and that massively increases trust.

And finally, the third one, the humor versus rumor,

你要在兩小時內

I think the important thing to see here

用幽默方式來回應。

我們發現，如果在兩小時內回應，

is that wherever there's a trending disinformation or conspiracy theory,

會有更多人看到這接種的資訊 而非陰謀論。

you respond to it with a humorous package

within two hours.

但如果你四小時或一天後才回應，

We have discovered, if we respond within two hours,

那就注定失敗。

then more people see the vaccination than the conspiracy theory.

你已經無法再用幽默來反擊，

But if you respond four hours or a day afterwards,

你得要邀請散播那些訊息的人

參與共同創造的討論會。

then that's a lost cause.

You can't really counter that using humor anymore,

但那樣也沒關係。

you have to invite the person who spread those messages

比：你們的速度很了不起。

惠妮帶了一些問題給我們。

into cocreation workshops.

But we're OK with that, too.

惠妮·潘尼頓·羅傑斯：沒錯， 我們已經有幾個來自觀眾的問題。

DB: Your speed is incredible.

嗨，唐鳳。

I see Whitney has joined us with some questions.

我們先從社群成員 麥可·貝克斯的問題開始。

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: That's right,

他問：「你們導入幽默 vs. 謠言策略

we have a few coming in already from the audience.

Hi there, Audrey.

有多久的歷史？

And we'll start with one from our community member Michael Backes.

對不起。

幽默 vs. 謠言策略被導入多久了？

He asks how long has humor versus rumor been a strategy

這背後是否有諮詢喜劇演員？」

that you've implemented.

Excuse me.

唐：是的，當然有。

"How long has humor versus rumor strategy been implemented?

喜劇演員是我們最珍貴的同事。

Were comedians consulted to make the humor?"

每一個部會都有個 「開放政府聯絡人」團隊，

AT: Yes, definitely.

Comedians are our most cherished colleagues.

負責處理熱門的主題。

And each and every ministry has a team of what we call participation officers

團隊陣容堅強，已有超過一百人。

我們每個月、每兩週都會開會，

in charge of engaging with trending topics.

討論特定主題。

大概是從 2016 年底開始，

And it's a more than 100 people-strong team now.

We meet every month and also every couple of weeks

但直到我們的前發言人谷辣斯·尤達卡

on specific topics.

It's been like that since late 2016,

在一年半前加入我們，

才有職業的喜劇演員加入團隊。

but it's not until our previous spokesperson, Kolas Yotaka,

先前，重點比較是在邀請張貼類似

joined about a year and a half ago,

do the professional comedians get to the team.

「我們的報稅系統非常不友善」這種句子

Previously, this was more about inviting the people who post, you know,

還爆紅起來的人，

先前，我們的開放政府 聯絡人會邀請這些人。

quotes like "Our tax filing system is explosively hostile,"

只要你抱怨

財務部的報稅體驗，

便會受邀共同優化報稅體驗。

and gets trending,

and previously, the POs just invited those people.

先前是那樣。

Everybody who complains

但谷辣斯·尤達卡和行政院長蘇貞昌問

about the finance minister's tax-filing experience

我們能否做得更好，觸及更多人，

gets invited to the cocreation of that tax filing experience.

若加上一些貓狗的圖片？

So previously, it was that.

But Kolas Yotaka and the premier Su Tseng-chang said,

這種做法已經有一年半左右了。

wouldn't it be much better and reach more people

羅：我也相信那絕對會不同。

if we add some dogs to it or cat's pictures to it?

即使我只是看到結果， 而沒有參與背後的思考過程，

And that's been around for a year and a half.

還有另一個問題， 來自 G. 萊恩·安森。

WPR: Definitely, I think it makes a lot of difference, just even seeing them

without being part of the thought process behind that.

他問：「你認為在疫情之前

And we have another question here from G. Ryan Ansin.

你們的社會有多高的信任度，

政府才能有機會

妥當地控制這場危機？」

He asks, "What would you rank the level of trust

唐：我會說，社會大眾信賴彼此。

your community had before the pandemic,

in order for the government to have a chance

那正是數位民主的重點。

at properly controlling this crisis?"

重點不是要人民更相信政府。

AT: I would say that a community trusts each other.

而是政府要更相信公民，

And that is the main point of digital democracy.

讓國家對公民透明化，

This is not about people trusting the government more.

而不是公民對國家透明化，

那會是另一種政體。

This is about the government trusting the citizens more,

國家對公民更透明化，

making the state transparent to the citizen,

不見得一定會帶來更多信任，

因為你可能會看到些問題或疏漏，

not the citizen transparent to the state,

which would be some other regime.

有些會讓使用者體驗變得不友善，

So making the state transparent to the citizens

諸如此類。

doesn't always elicit more trust,

所以不見得會造成政府有更多信任。

because you may see something wrong, something missing,

抱歉，是公民對政府有更多信任。

something exclusively hostile to its user experience,

但終會使社會部門的利害關係者 彼此更信任。

an so on, of the state.

So it doesn't necessarily lead to more trust from the government.

所以，我會說人與人之間的信任程度，

Sorry, from the citizen to the government.

比如，

But it always leads to more trust between the social sector stakeholders.

醫療人員、

So I would say the level of trust between the people

疫情因應相關工作的人員、

who are working on, for example,

製造醫療口罩的人員，

諸如此類，

medical officers,

所有這些人，

他們之間的信任程度非常高。

and people who are working with the pandemic responses,

他們不見得一定相信政府。

people who manufacture medical masks,

但成功的因應未必得要對政府的信任。

and so on,

all these people,

the trust level between them is very high.

如果你在街上隨便問一個人，

And not necessarily they trust the government.

他們會說台灣表現突出是因為人民。

But we don't need that for a successful response.

當控制中心要我們戴上口罩，

If you ask a random person on the street,

我們就戴上口罩。

當控制中心告訴我們不要戴口罩，

they will say Taiwan is performing so well because of the people.

比如在可以保持實體社交距離時，

我們還是把口罩戴著。

When the CECC tells us to wear the mask,

正因如此，

we wear the mask.

我認為社會部門中 各個利害關係人之間的信任

When the CECC tells us not to wear a mask,

like, if you are keeping physical distance,

才是因應的關鍵。

we wear a mask anyway.

And so because of that,

羅：我很快就會再帶更多問題回來，

I think it's the social sector's trust between those different stakeholders

但我先讓你們繼續談話。

that's the key to the response.

唐：好的。

比：很顯然，有部分對政府的信任

WPR: I will come back shortly with more questions,

but I'll leave you guys to continue your conversation.

在 2014 年太陽花事件時並不存在。

AT: Awesome.

DB: Well, clearly, part of that trust in government

跟我談談這點，

was maybe not there in 2014 during the Sunflower Movement.

以及那件事如何導致如此的數位轉型。

So talk to me about that

唐：的確。

and how that led to this, kind of, digital transformation.

在 2014 年 3 月之前， 如果在台灣街上隨機訪問，

有沒有可能會有一個官員——

AT: Indeed.

Before March 2014, if you asked a random person on the street in Taiwan,

也就是我——把辦公室設在 名副其實的公園裡，

大家都可以走進來跟我談事情， 一次 40 分鐘，

like, whether it's possible for a minister -- that's me --

我現在就身處這個公園 ── 社會創新實驗中心，

to have their office in a park, literally a park,

他們會說那太瘋狂了，對吧？

anyone can walk in and talk to me for 40 minutes at a time,

沒有政府官員這樣工作的。

但，那是因為 2014/03/18，

I'm currently in that park, the Social Innovation Lab,

數百名年輕的社會運動參與者， 多數是大學生，

they would say that this is crazy, right?

No public officials work like that.

佔據了立法院，

But that was because on March 18, 2014,

去表達他們深思後強烈反對

和北京所訂的服貿協議，

hundreds of young activists, most of them college students,

也抗議當時秘密協議於國會闖關，

occupied the legislature

to express their profound opposition to a trade pact with Beijing

由當時的執政黨──國民黨所推動。

所以，抗議者的訴求很簡單，

under consideration,

and the secretive manner in which it was pushed through the parliament

他們要求廢除該協議，

並要求政府制定更透明的簽署流程。

by Kuomintang, the ruling party at the time.

And so the protesters demanded, very simply,

因此吸引了更廣泛的民眾支持。

事件在大約三週之後告終，

that the pact be scraped,

and the government to institute a more transparent ratification process.

在政府保證並同意

And that drew widespread public support.

四項和立法監督相關要求的前提下。

It ended a little more than three weeks later,

在佔據事件之後的民調顯示：

after the government promised and agreed

有 75% 的人仍然不滿意

on the four demands [unclear] of legislative oversight.

掌權的政府，

顯示貿易協定爭議導致的信任危機。

A poll released after the occupation

showed that more than 75 percent remained dissatisfied

為了治好這個裂痕

及和所有公民做更好的溝通，

with the ruling government,

illustrating the crisis of trust that was caused by a trade deal dispute.

政府決定要向外接觸支持佔領者的人，

And to heal this rift and communicate better

比如 g0v 社群，

這個社群一直努力 透過創造開放原始碼的工具

with everyday citizens,

the administration reached out to the people who supported the occupiers,

來改善政府的透明度。

所以，當時的政務委員蔡玉玲

for example, the g0v community,

出席了我們的駭客松，

which has been seeking to improve government transparency

提議用線上社群建立一個新穎的平台

through the creation of open-source tools.

來交換政策的想法。

And so, Jaclyn Tsai, a government minister at the time,

一個叫做 vTaiwan 的實驗就此誕生，

attended our hackathon

and proposed the establishment of novel platforms

率先使用像 Polis 的工具，

with the online community to exchange policy ideas.

沒有回覆鈕，只有 「同意」或「不同意」，

And an experiment was born called vTaiwan,

取得人民的粗略共識， 處理的議題包括：群眾募資，

that pioneerly used tools such as Polis,

明確來說應該是：股權眾籌，

that allows for "agree" or "disagree" with no Reply button,

遠程辦公，及許多其他網路相關的立法，

that gets people's rough consensus on issues such as crowdfunding,

當時都還沒有相關的公會或組織存在。

equity-based crowdfunding, to be precise,

結果證明非常成功。

teleworking and many other cyber-related legislation,

比如，他們解決了優步議題，

of which there is no existing unions or associations.

現在，你可以叫優步——

我這週才叫過一次優步——

And it proved to be very successful.

They solved the Uber problem, for example,

無論如何，他們以計程車的模式運作。

and by now, you can call an Uber --

他們設立了一個當地計程車公司 叫做 Q Taxi，

I just called an Uber this week --

因為透過平台知道： 大家會在乎保險，

but in any case, they are operating as taxis.

會在乎執業登記，

They set up a local taxi company called Q Taxi,

會在乎各種對乘客的保護等等。

and that was because on the platform, people cared about insurance,

所以我們改變了計程車的規定，

they care about registration,

現在優步就只是一家計程車公司，

they care about all the sort of, protection of the passengers, and so on.

和其他同業一樣。

So we changed the taxi regulations,

比：所以，某種程度上，你們真的

and now Uber is just another taxi company

把法律做群眾外包，接著立法。

along with the other co-ops.

唐：是的，在 crowd.law 可找到更多相關資訊。

DB: So you're actually, in a way,

那是個真的網站。

crowdsourcing laws that, well, then become laws.

比：有些人可能會說，

AT: Yeah, learn more at crowd.law.

因為台灣是個島嶼， 才比較容易辦到，

It's a real website.

這個因素也許能協助你們 控制好新型冠狀病毒，

DB: So, some might say that this seems easier,

協助推動社會團結，

because Taiwan is an island,

也許是因為你們比一般的國家更小。

that maybe helps you control COVID,

你認為這種做法能擴大到台灣以外嗎？

helps promote social cohesion,

maybe it's a smaller country than some.

唐：嗯，首先，

2,300 萬人還不算少。

Do you think that this could be scaled beyond Taiwan?

台灣不是個城市，

有些人會說「台灣是個城邦」。

AT: Well, first of all,

23 million people is still quite some people.

2,300 萬人不太算是城邦。

It's not a city,

as some usually say, you know, "Taiwan is a city-state."

我想要說的

是我們的人口密度很高 且有多樣性的文化——

Well, 23 million people, not quite a city-state.

我們國內用的語言就超過 20 種——

And what I'm trying to get at,

這不見得會導致你所說的社會團結。

is that the high population density and a variety of cultures --

我認為重點在於所有官員在對抗

we have more than 20 national languages --

doesn't necessarily lead to social cohesion, as you said.

新型冠狀病毒的因應過程中保持謙遜。

從面對 SARS 經驗中學到教訓，

Rather, I think, this is the humbleness of all the ministers

部份官員也有過去對抗 SARS 的經驗，

in the counter-coronavirus response.

They all took on an attitude of "So we learned about SARS" --

但那是典型的流行病學。

這次是 SARS 2.0，有不同的特徵。

many of them were in charge of the SARS back then,

因為我們使用的工具非常不同，

因為像這樣的數位轉型。

but that was classical epidemiology.

所以在這次事件中 我們和公民一起學習。

This is SARS 2.0, it has different characteristics.

我們當時的副總統──

And the tools that we use are very different,

陳健仁博士是位學者，

because of the digital transformation.

And so we are in it to learn together with the citizens.

也確實寫過流行病學的教科書。

Our vice president at the time,

然而，他仍說：

「我打算要做的是 錄製大規模開放線上課堂，

Dr. Chen Chien-jen, an academician,

literally wrote the textbook on epidemiology.

關於流行病學的速成班，

並且和第一天

However, he still says,

註冊參加的兩千人分享，

"You know, what I'm going to do is record an online MOOC,

我是其中之一，

去了解重要的概念，

a crash course on epidemiology,

像是 R0 基本傳染數

that shares with,

I think, more than 20,00 people enrolled the first day,

以及各種不同的措施如何運作，

I was among them,

to learn about important ideas,

接著，他們邀請大家創新。

like the R0 and the basic transmission

如果你能想出 副總統沒有想出的新方法，

and how the various different measures work,

只要播打 1922，

and then they asked people to innovate.

你的想法就會出現在隔天的記者會上。

If you think of a new way that the vice president did not think of,

我想，這種共同學習的策略

才是你所說的社會團結

just call 1922,

and your idea will become the next day's press conference.

背後的關鍵。

And this is this colearning strategy,

但，重點比較是在穩健的公民社會 而不是一致性。

I think, that more than anything enabled the social cohesion,

在台灣完全沒有一致性，

每個人都能提出自己的想法，

as you speak.

But this is more of a robust civil society than the uniformity.

還有所有這些社會創新，

從用傳統的電鍋，

There's no uniformity at all in Taiwan,

將口罩殺菌重複利用，

everybody is entitled to their ideas,

到粉紅色的醫療口罩等等，

and all the social innovations,

有各式各樣很有趣的點子，

ranging from using a traditional rice cooker

透過每日記者會放大。

to revitalize, to disinfect the mask,

to pink medical mask, and so on,

比：那真的很好。

there's all variety of very interesting ideas

現在——喔，惠妮回來了，

that get amplified by the daily press conference.

先讓她問下一個問題吧。

DB: That's beautiful.

羅：好的，我們還有 陸續收到一些問題。

Now -- oh, Whitney is back,

我們的社群成員艾莉亞·班迪克斯 提出一個問題。

so I will let her ask the next question.

艾莉亞問：「要如何 確保數位活動能快速執行，

WPR: Sure, we're having some more questions come in.

同時不犧牲正確性？

One from our community member Aria Bendix.

在美國，一月初時出現一波恐慌，

Aria asked, "How do you ensure that digital campaigns act quickly

害怕對疫情的過度煽動。」

without sacrificing accuracy?

唐：這是個好問題。

In the US, there was a fear of inciting panic about COVID-19

關於新型冠狀病毒的科學點子 在不斷演化，對吧？

in early January."

AT: This is a great question.

比如，口罩的效力就是個好例子，

So most of the scientific ideas about the COVID are evolving, right?

因為先前不同的呼吸系統疾病 有不同的特性，

The efficacy of masks, for example, is a very good example,

對口罩也會有不同的反應。

所以，我們的數位活動

because the different characteristics of previous respiratory diseases

把焦點放在能夠取得粗略的共識。

respond differently to the facial mask.

也就是反映出社會的共識，

And so, our digital campaigns

藉由 Polis、Slido、任何協作的平台、

focus on the idea of getting the rough consensus through.

vTaiwan 設計原型使用的多種工具，

So basically, it's a reflection of the society,

我們知道人民對於事物的粗略共識，

through Polis, through Slido, through the joint platform,

而我們在對社會做出回應，說：

the various tools that vTaiwan has prototyped,

「這是你們大家的感受，

我們打算這樣回應你們的感受。

we know that people are feeling a rough consensus about things

科學上的共識仍然在發展中，

and we're responding to the society, saying,

但我們知道，比如，

"This is what you all feel

大家覺得戴上口罩最能保護你，

and this is what we're doing to respond to your feelings.

因為它能提醒你不要觸碰臉，

And the scientific consensus is still developing,

且要好好洗手。」

but we know, for example,

先不管其他，

people feel that wearing a mask mostly protects you,

這兩件事是大家都同意的。

because it reminds you to not touch your face

所以我們就利用它們，說：

and wash your hands properly."

「好的，要好好洗手，

And these, regardless of everything else,

且不要觸碰你的臉，

戴口罩能提醒你這些事。」

are the two things that everybody agrees with.

這種做法讓我們可以克服

So we just capitalize on that and say,

充滿意識形態的辯論，

"OK, wash your hands properly,

把焦點放在大家普遍的共鳴。

and don't touch your face,

and wearing a mask reminds you of that."

And that lets us cut through

那就是為什麼我們 能快速又不犧牲科學正確性。

the kind of, very ideologically charged debates

and focus on what people generally resonate with one another.

羅：下一個問題或許和這個問題有關聯。

And that's how we act quickly without sacrificing scientific accuracy.

這個問題來自匿名的社群成員。

「在實用面上，你認為你們的政策

WPR: And this next question sort of feels connected to this as well.

有哪些可以應用在 目前由川普執政的美國？」

It's a question from an anonymous community member.

唐：其實有不少。

我們和美國許多州及他國合作，

"Pragmatically, do you think any of your policies

could be applied in the United States under the current Trump administration?"

進行「震央對震央外交」。（笑）

AT: Quite a few, actually.

We work with many states in the US and abroad

基本上，我們在做的是，

on what we call "epicenter to epicenter diplomacy." (Laughs)

比如，在台灣有個聊天機器人，

讓你，特別是居家隔離的人，

So what we're doing essentially is,

可以問聊天機器人任何事。

如果有一位科學顧問

for example, there was a chat bot in Taiwan

that lets you, but especially people under home quarantine,

已經寫好了常見問題，

聊天機器人就會照劇本回應，

to ask the chat bot anything.

要不然，他們就會找國外的科學顧問

And if there is a scientific adviser

來撰寫回應，

who already wrote a frequently asked question,

而發言狗會把它轉換成可愛小狗迷因。

the chat bot just responds with that,

but otherwise, they will call the science advisory board

這個回饋循環

and write an accessible response to that,

讓大家能容易接觸、 找到、詢問科學家，

and the spokesdog would translate that into a cute dog meme.

還附有開放的 API 供語音助理使用，

And so this feedback cycle

其他第三方開發者也能取用它，

of people very easily accessing, finding, and asking a scientist,

美國許多州有共鳴，

and an open API that allows for voice assistance

且許多州已經在導入它。

and other third-party developers to get through it,

在世界衛生大會 WHA 之前大概三天左右，

resonates with many US states,

我們舉辦了 14 國的橫向會議，

and I think many of them are implementing it.

And before the World Health Assembly, I think three days before,

有點像 WHA 會前會，

會中我們分享了一些 小型且快速見效的方法。

we held a 14 countries [unclear] lateral meeting,

我相信有許多國家採納了分享，

kind of, pre-WHA,

包括幽默 vs. 謠言。

where we shared many small, like, quick wins like this.

很多人說，

他們現在要招募一些喜劇演員。

And I think many jurisdictions took some of that,

羅：（笑）我喜歡這點。

比：希望如此。

including the humor versus rumor.

羅：我也希望如此。

Many of them said

我們還有一個算是接連先前的問題，

that they're going to recruit comedians now.

來自先前發問的麥可`貝克斯。

WPR: (Laughs) I love that.

DB: I hope so.

「政府是否打算把他們的計畫 以白皮書的形式出版？」

WPR: I hope so too.

And we have one more question, which is actually a follow-up,

聽起來你們已經在和大家 分享你們的計畫，

from Michael Backes, who asked a question earlier.

但你們是否有打算以書面形式出版？

"Does the Ministry plan to publish their plans in a white paper?"

唐：當然。

是的，且是數本白皮書。

在 taiwancanhelp.us 網站上

Sounds like you're already sharing your plans with folks,

but do you have a plan to put it out on paper?

可以看到我們大部分的策略，

AT: Of course.

Yeah, and multiple white papers.

那個網站其實也是群眾外包的，

So if you go to taiwancanhelp.us,

上面顯示，我想目前已經捐助了

that is where most of our strategy is,

500 萬個醫療口罩給人道救援。

and that website is actually crowdsourced as well,

口罩也是群眾外包的。

and it shows that more than five million now, I think,

有些人家中有些口罩，

medical masks donated to the humanitarian aid.

他們沒有去領分配的口罩，

他們可以用 APP，說：

It's also crowdsourced.

「我想要把這口罩捐給國際人道救援。」

People who have some masks in their homes,

有一半的人選擇公開自己的姓名，

who did not collect the rationed masks,

所以你也可以看到參與此活動的人名。

they can use an app, say,

"I want to dedicate this to international humanitarian aid,"

還有「什麼都可以問台灣」網站，

and half of them choose to publish their names,

（笑）

網址是 fightcovid.edu.tw。

so you can also see the names of people who participated in this.

在那裡，所有的因應策略 都以白皮書的形式提供，

And there's also an "Ask Taiwan Anything" website,

(Laughs)

可以去看看。

at fightcovid.edu.tw,

羅：好極了。

我要先告退，等會兒再帶其他問題回來。

that outlines, in white paper form, all the response strategies,

so check those out.

比：可說是有大量的白皮書。

WPR: Great.

我想要把焦點稍微轉到你身上。

Well, I will disappear and be back later with some other questions.

DB: A blizzard of white papers, if you will.

一名保守的無政府主義者 如何化身為數位政務委員？

I'd like to turn the focus on you a little bit.

唐：透過佔領國會。

How does a conservative anarchist become a digital minister?

（笑）

更有趣的是，

我會說我與政府一起做事，

AT: Yeah, by occupying the parliament, and through that.

但從不是為政府做事。

(Laughs)

我與人民一起做事， 但不是為人民做事。

More interestingly,

I would say that I go working with the government,

我就像是拉格朗日點（平動點），

一邊是人民的運動，

but never for the government.

另一邊則是政府。

And I work with the people, not for the people.

I'm like this Lagrange point

有時就在中間，

試著做一些指導或翻譯的工作。

between the people's movements on one side

有時則像是三角形的點，

and the government on the other side.

試圖供應雙方工具，做利社會溝通。

Sometimes right in the middle,

trying to do some coach or translation work.

但不變的想法是：

Sometimes in a kind of triangle point,

trying to supply both sides with tools for prosocial communication.

要從不同立場、各種立場的人身上

找到共同的價值觀。

But always with this idea

因為，民主太常變成價值觀的對決。

of getting the shared values out of different positions,

但在疫情時，假訊息大流行時，

out of varied positions.

在氣候變遷時，

Because all too often,

democracy is built as a showdown between opposing values.

在許多結構性議題中，

病毒或二氧化碳並不會坐下來和你協商。

But in the pandemic, in the infodemic,

處理結構性議題，就需要

in climate change,

in many of those structural issues,

從不同的立場找到共同的價值觀。

the virus or carbon dioxide doesn't sit down and negotiate with you.

那就是為什麼我的工作原則是極度透明。

It's a structural issue that requires common values

所有的對談，包括這場對談，

built out of different positions.

都會記錄下來，

And so that is why my working principle is radical transparency.

包括我主持的網路會議。

所有的會議文字記錄都會公開，

Every conversation, including this one,

可以在我的 YouTube 頻道， 在 SayIt 平台上找到，

is on the record,

including the internal meetings that I hold.

在那裡可以看到， 我成為數位大臣之後，

So you can see all the different meeting transcripts

我主持了 1,300 場會議， 有超過 5,000 位講者，

in my YouTube channel, in the SayIt platform,

超過 26 萬則觀點被表達出來。

where people can see, after I became digital minister,

每一個會議都有一個網址，

I held 1,300 meetings with more than 5,000 speakers,

可以成為大家談論的社會主題。

with more than 260,000 utterances.

因此，

比如，當優步的大衛·普洛菲 拜訪我進行遊說，

And every one of them has a URL

that becomes a social object that people can have a conversation on.

因為極度透明，

他非常清楚這一點，

And because of that,

for example, when Uber's David Plouffe visited me to lobby for Uber,

所以他所有的論點都以公共利益為基礎，

以永續性為基礎，

because of radical transparency,

因為他知道其他各方的人

he is very much aware of that,

可以非常清楚、透明地看見他的立場。

and so he made all the arguments based on public good,

那就會鼓勵大家去深入彼此的論點，

based on sustainability, and things like that,

because he knows that the other sides would see his positions

而不是對彼此做人身攻擊，

比如攻擊對方的信用等等。

very clearly and transparently.

我認為，最重要的原則是：

So that encourages people to add on each other's argument,

保留網路的無政府主義，

instead of attacking each other's person,

you know, credits and things like that.

也就是

沒有人可以強迫任何人對網路上癮，

And so I think that, more than anything,

is the main principle of conserving the anarchism of the internet,

或者遵守新的網際協定。

粗略的共識和進擊的程式，就是準則。

which is about, you know,

nobody can force anyone to hook to the internet,

比：我真希望全世界有更多像你這樣的人。

or to adhere to a new internet protocol.

Everything has to be done using rough consensus and running code.

也許你也希望全世界有更多像你這樣的人。

唐：因為這些想法正是 「值得傳播的想法」。

DB: I wish you had more counterparts all around the world.

比：沒錯。

這些數位工具可能會帶來的 挑戰之一就是：

Maybe you wish you had more counterparts all around the world.

AT: That's why these ideas are worth spreading.

接觸管道。

DB: There you go.

你要如何處理這個部分，

So one of the challenges that might arise with some of these digital tools

協助連線頻寬不夠的人，

或者沒有手機或其他必備品的人？

is access.

How do you approach that part of it

for folks maybe who don't have the best broadband connection

唐：在台灣的任何地方，

就算是在台灣最高 將近四千公尺的海拔，

or the latest mobile phone or whatever it might be that's required?

也就是玉山的山頂，

都保證取得 10MB/s 的網速，

AT: Well, anywhere in Taiwan,

even on the top of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high,

透過 4G 或有線網路，

且一個月只要 16 美金 就可以有網路吃到飽。

the Saviah, or the Jade Mountain,

you're guaranteed to have 10 megabits per second

其實，在山頂上傳輸速度還更快，

over 4G or fiber or cable,

因為用頻寬的人少。

with just 16 US dollars a month, an unlimited plan.

若你沒有這種頻寬，是我的責任，

是我的職責。

And actually, on the top of the mountain, it's faster,

在台灣，寬頻是人權。

當我們部署 5G 網路時，

fewer people use that bandwidth.

我們找 4G 訊號最弱的地方，

And if you don't, it's my fault.

It's personally my fault.

我們的 5G 網路部署從那些地方開始。

In Taiwan, we have broadband as a human right.

And so when we're deploying 5G,

只有把寬頻當作人權來部署，

we're looking at places where the 4G has the weakest signal,

我們才能說這是人人都享有的。

and we begin with those places in our 5G deployment.

數位民主是會強化民主的。

And only by deploying broadband as a human right

否則社會某些部分就會被排除。

can we say that this is for everybody.

這也可以應用在，比如，

你可以去當地的機會中心，

That digital democracy actually strengthens democracy.

去租借平板電腦，保證是

Otherwise, we would be excluding parts of the society.

過去三年間出產的新貨，

And this also applies to, for example,

像這類的事情，

讓你有多種管道與數位聯結，

you can go to a local digital opportunity center

to rent a tablet that's guaranteed

可透過數位機會中心、大學、學校，

to be manufactured in the past three years,

and things like that,

還有公立圖書館，這非常重要。

to enable, also, the different digital access

如果有人偏好在市民大會中發言，

by the digital opportunity centers, universities and schools,

我會親自帶著 360 度攝影機去市民大會，

and public libraries, very important.

向台北及其他縣市進行直播，

And if people who prefer to talk in their town hall,

I personally go to that town hall with a 360 recorder,

在直播中，中央政府的公僕可以

加入到連線聊天室，

但傾聽當地人設定的議程。

and livestream that to Taipei and to other municipalities,

大家仍然會開面對面的會議，

where the central government's public servants can join

我們所做的並不是取代面對面會議。

in a connected room style,

but listening to the local people who set the agenda.

我們是把更多利害關係人

從中央政府帶到當地的公民大會中，

So people still do face-to-face meetings,

我們在放大他們的聲音──

we're not doing this to replace face-to-face meetings.

透過：文字記錄、心智圖等方法──

We're bringing more stakeholders

在網路上即時傳播出去，

from central government in the local town halls,

但我們絕對不會要求長者，比如：

and we're amplifying their voices

by making sure the transcripts, the mind maps, and things like that

「喔，你必須要學打字， 不然你就不能參與民主。」

are spread through the internet in real time,

那不是我們的風格。

但那需要寬頻。

but we don't ever ask the elderly to, say,

若沒有寬頻，只有很窄的頻寬，

"Oh, you have to learn typing, otherwise you don't do democracy."

你就會被迫使用文字溝通。

It's not our style.

比：沒錯。

But that requires broadband.

當然，隨著能夠運用，

Because if you don't have broadband, but only a very limited bandwidth,

就會有些濫用數位平台的人。

you are forced to use text-based communication.

你先前談了一些假資訊，

DB: That's right.

Well, with access, of course,

以及用幽默打敗謠言。

comes access for folks who maybe will misuse the platform.

但有時，假資訊會被當作武器。

You talked a little bit about disinformation

你要如何對抗那種攻擊？

and using humor to beat rumor.

But sometimes, disinformation is more weaponized.

唐：好，所以你指的是惡意資訊。

How do you combat those kinds of attacks, really?

就是意圖導致公眾損害的資訊。

AT: Right, so you mean malinformation, then.

那可不是開玩笑的。

So essentially, information designed to cause intentional public harm.

對此，我們有一個想法， 叫做「注意並公告」。

And that's no laughing matter.

這是路透社的照片，

讓我把原始的標題讀出來。

So for that, we have an idea called "notice and public notice."

原始的標題寫著：

「香港有位抗議引渡法案的青少年 出現在遊行中，

So this is a Reuters photo,

要求香港的民主及政治改革。」

and I will read the original caption.

The original caption says

路透社的標題非常中立。

"A teenage extradition bill protester in Hong Kong

但在去年十一月

is seen during a march to demand democracy and political reform in Hong Kong."

發生了惡意資訊的散播，

OK, a very neutral title by the Reuters.

和我們的總統選舉有關，

But there was a spreading of malinformation

內容全然不同。

這是同一張照片，上面寫著

back last November,

「這位 13 歲的暴徒買了新的 iPhone、

just leading to our presidential election,

that shows something else entirely.

遊戲主機，及名牌運動鞋，

並且招集他弟兄們一同去殺警，

This is the same photo -- that says

酬勞 20 萬美金。」

"This 13-year-old thug bought new iPhones,

game consoles and brand-name sports shoes,

當然這是一種武器， 設計來種下爭端，

and recruiting his brothers to murder police

造成台灣的投票者產生對香港的厭惡。

and collect 200,000 dollars."

And this, of course, is a weapon designed to sow discord,

因為他們知道這是當下的重要議題。

and to elicit in Taiwan's voters a kind of distaste for Hong Kong.

如果我們選擇將資訊下架，

並不會有用，

因為那只會促成更多憤怒。

And because they know that this is the main issue.

所以我們沒有做下架。

反之，我們和事實查核者

And had we resorted to takedowns,

以及專業記者合作，

that will not work,

把這原始的訊息

because that would only evoke more outrage.

追溯到 它被張貼出來的第一天。

So we didn't do a takedown.

Instead, we worked with the fact checkers

它來自中央政法委長安劍──

and professional journalists

那是主要的政治與法律單位，

to attribute this original message back to the first day that it was posted.

隸屬於中國共產黨。

And it came from Zhongyang Zhengfawei.

That is the main political and legal unit of the central party,

我們知道最初由其微博帳號 發佈這段新的標題。

所以我們發出公告，

in the Central Communist Party, in CCP.

通知社群媒體公司中的合作夥伴，

And we know that it's their Weibo account that first did this new caption.

幾乎全都通知了，

每當加上錯誤說明的這張圖片 被分享出去時，

So we sent out a public notice

他們就會放上一個小小提醒，

and with the partners in social media companies,

pretty much all of them,

上面說：「這其實是來自

they just put this very small reminder

中國共產黨的中央宣傳單位。

next to each time that this is shared with the wrong caption,

若要了解更多完整脈絡，請點選這裡。」

that says "This actually came from the central propaganda unit

我們發現這種方式有效，

因為大家能夠了解這並不是新聞素材。

of the CCP.

Click here to learn more. To learn about the whole story."

這是盜用路透社新聞素材

And that, we found, that has worked,

以及侵犯版權，

because people understand this is then not a news material.

我想那是貿易協議的一部分。

無論如何，重點是當大家了解

This is rather an appropriation of Reuters' news material

這是刻意捏造的故事，

and a copyright infringement

他們就不會隨機分享它。

and I think that's part of the [unclear].

他們可能會分享，但會加上註解：

In any case, the point is that when people understand

「中央政法委試圖對我們的民主 做出這種行動。」

that this is an intentional narrative,

they won't just randomly share it.

They may share it, but with a comment that says

比：看來有些全球社群媒體公司

"This is what the Zhongyang Zhengfawei is trying to do to our democracy."

可以從「注意並公告」中學習。

DB: Seems like some of the global social media companies

唐：公告，是的。

比：你能否提供些建議

could learn something from notice and public notice.

給推特、臉書、Line、WhatsApp

AT: Public notice, that's right.

及其他這類公司？

DB: What advice would you have

for the Twitters and Facebooks and LINEs and WhatsApps,

唐：好的。

在我們的選舉之前，

and you name it, of the world?

我們對這些公司說，

我們不會制訂法律懲罰他們。

AT: Yeah.

So, just before our election,

然而，我們要分享一個非常簡單的事實：

we said to all of them

that we're not making a law to kind of punish them.

在台灣我們有種規範，

政府甚至有專門獨立的機構，

However, we're sharing this very simple fact

監察的機構，

負責發佈活動捐獻和費用。

that there is this norm in Taiwan

於是我們想到，

that we even have a separate branch of the government,

在前次選舉，市長選舉，

the control branch,

that published the campaign donation and expense.

有許多候選人

沒有列舉任何社群媒體廣告費用，

And it just so occurred to us

在交給監察院的費用明細中，

that in the previous election, the mayoral one,

基本上，那就表示政治獻金和費用

there was a lot of candidates

that did not include any social media advertisements

有其他項目可以躲避大眾的監督 。

in their expense to the Control Yuan.

And so essentially, that means that there is a separate amount

我們的監察院以原始資料的形式

公佈了他們的數字，

原始資料不是統計概要，

of political donation and expense that evades public scrutiny.

而是個別的明細，誰為了什麼理由

And our Control Yuan published their numbers

在何時何地捐獻，

這讓調查記者非常開心，

in raw data form,

that is to say, they're not statistics,

因為他們可以做調查報告，

but individual records of who donated for what cause,

報導候選人和資助他們的人之間的關係。

when, where,

and investigative journalists are very happy,

但全球社群媒體公司就不會

because they can then make investigative reports

給他們這樣的素材運用。

about the connections between the candidates

所以我說：「聽好，這非常簡單。

這是這裡的社會規範，

and the people who fund them.

But they cannot work with the same material

我不在乎其他的國家。

from the global social media companies.

你可以選擇遵守監察院 和調查記者設下的社會規範，

So I said, "Look, this is very simple.

This is the social norm here,

I don't really care about other jurisdictions.

否則可能會面臨社會制裁。

這並不是政府命令，

You either adhere to the social norm that is set by the Control Yuan

而是因為人們受夠了黑箱操作，

and the investigative journalists,

or maybe you will face social sanctions.

這也是部分太陽花運動的要求。

And this is not the government mandate,

臉書其實也發表在廣告檔案庫，

but it's the people fed up with, you know, black box,

我認為是當時最快的應對策略之一，

and that's part of the Sunflower Occupy's demands, also.

And so Facebook actually published in the Ad Library,

基本上每個行為可疑的帳號

I think at that time, one of the fastest response strategies,

會很快被舉報，

調查記者也和當地的技術人員合作，

where everybody who has basically any dark pattern advertisement

保證若有人敢惡意操弄社交媒體，

will get revealed very quickly,

一個小時內，會有一份報告譴責這種行為。

and investigative journalists work with the local civic technologists

to make sure that if anybody dare to use social media in such a divisive way,

所以沒人在先前的總統選舉期間嘗試。

within an hour, there will be a report out condemning that.

比：所以說改變是可行的。

唐：嗯。

So nobody tried that during the previous presidential election season.

羅：我們還有些來自社群的問題。

DB: So change is possible.

這是一位匿名人士，

說「我想臺灣未加入世界衛生組織，

AT: Mhm.

WPR: Hey there, we have some more questions from the community.

而有超過 130 項的防疫相關程式，

There is an anonymous one

完全自行開發，

that says, "I believe Taiwan is outside WHO entirely

它在多大程度上歸功於

建立自己系統的準備？」

and has a 130-part preparation program --

唐：我猜有一小部分。

developed entirely on its own --

to what extent does it credit its preparation

我們嘗試警告世界衛生組織，

to building its own system?"

但在那時候 ---

我們沒有完全失聯， 但僅有有限的科學管道。

AT: Well, a little bit, I guess.

We tried to warn the WHO,

但我們沒有官方管道。

這是截然不同的，對吧？

but at that point --

如果你只有有限的科學管道，

we are not totally outside, we have limited scientific access.

除非該國的頂尖流行病學家 碰巧是副總統，

But we do not have any ministerial access.

And this is very different, right?

If you only have limited scientific access,

就像臺灣的情況一樣，

unless the other side's top epidemiologist happens to be the vice president,

專家不總是能有效地 將道理轉化為政治行動，

like in Taiwan's case,

就像我們的副總統一樣，對吧？

they don't always do the storytelling well enough

所以缺乏官方管道，我認為，

對世界而言是種損失，

to translate that into political action as our vice president did, right?

否則大家也能像台灣一樣反應，

So the lack of ministerial access, I think,

在一月的第一天，

不是等待數週後，

is to the detriment of the global community,

直到世界衛生組織宣佈，

because otherwise, people could have responded as we did

這確認會是人傳人的病毒，

in the first day of January,

instead of having to wait for weeks

你需要對來自武漢的人檢查，

before the WHO declared that this is something,

他們最終這麼做了，

但這是在我們已經行動 2～3 週後才做的。

that there's definitely human to human transmission,

that you should inspect people coming in from Wuhan,

羅：很有道理。

which they eventually did,

比：更多的科學家和技術人員參與政治。

but that's already two weeks or three weeks after what we did.

聽起來這就是答案。

唐：是啊。

WPR: Makes a lot of sense.

DB: More scientists and technologists in politics.

羅：現在是來自卡瑪律·施尼瓦桑的問題，

That sounds like that's the answer.

關於你們的重新開放策略。

AT: Yeah.

「你們如何確保臺灣的餐廳 和零售商安全地營業？」

WPR: And then we have another question here from Kamal Srinivasan

唐: 啊，他們從來都沒停業， 所以...（笑）

about your reopening strategy.

羅：啊！（驚訝)

"How are you enabling restaurants and retailers to open safely in Taiwan?"

唐： 對，他們從未關閉，

沒有封城，沒有停業。

AT: Oh, they never closed, so ... (Laughs)

我們在 CECC 新聞發佈會上說得很簡單，

WPR: Oh!

AT: Yeah, they never closed,

將會有實體距離。

there was no lockdown, there was no closure.

你需要在室內保持 1.5 米的距離

或者戴口罩。

We just said a very simple thing in the CECC press conference,

就這樣。

有些餐廳放了，我猜，紅色簾子，

that there's going to be physical distancing.

有些放了很可愛的泰迪熊 諸如此類的物品在椅子上，

You maintain one and a half meters indoors

or wear a mask.

And that's it.

And so there are some restaurants that put up, I guess, red curtains,

確保人平均分散，

還有些餐廳安裝了可視玻璃或塑膠牆

some put very cute teddy bears and so on, on the chairs,

to make sure that people spread evenly,

在座位之間。

各種各樣的社會創新就在週遭發生。

some installed see-through glass or plastic walls

我認為唯一稍微停業的業者，

between the seats.

是因為來不及因應新常規，

There's various social innovations happening around.

And I think the only shops that got closed for a while,

是那些親密的陪酒酒吧。

但最終，他們也發明了新方法，

because they could not innovate quick enough to respond to these rules,

做法是發放面罩，

was the intimate escort bars.

方便喝飲料的塑膠面罩，

But eventually, even they invented new ways,

之後，他們透過這項創新正常地營業了。

by handing out these caps that are plastic shielding,

比：太棒了！

but still leaves room for drinking behind it.

羅：的確，從你說的策略裡 我們能學到很多。

And so they opened with that social innovation.

謝謝。 我會在尾聲時送來最後的問題。

DB: That's amazing.

WPR: It is, yeah, it's a lot to learn from your strategies there.

比：很高興聽到餐廳沒有停業，

Thank you, I'll be back towards the end with some final questions.

在我的經驗中，

台北相較其他城市，有著更多的美食。

DB: I'm very happy to hear that the restaurants were not closed down,

because I think Taipei has some of the best food in the world

為你們對此感到佩服。

那麼，

of any city that I've visited,

在使用數位化工具應對新冠，

so, you know, kudos to you for that.

或為了民主使用數位化工具時，

So the big concern when it comes to using digital tools for COVID

隱私是一個很大的擔憂。

你稍微聊到這個主題，

但我相信臺灣的民眾

or using digital tools for democracy

is always privacy.

可能也同樣關心自己的隱私，

You've talked about that a little bit,

特別是考慮到地理政治背景。那麼...

but I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan

唐: 當然。

比：那麼你們如何應對這些需求？

are perhaps equally concerned about their privacy,

唐：是啊，我們不僅設計了防範措施，

especially given the geopolitical context.

AT: Definitely.

DB: So how do you cope with those demands?

例如：最少化的資料收集，

還有積極主動的措施，

AT: Yeah, we design with not only defensive strategy,

比如：加強隱私的技術。

從我們的「防疫松」中 脫穎而出的頂級團隊之一，

like minimization of data collection,

來自 Polis 平臺的 TW 回應，

but also proactive measures,

such as privacy-enhancing technologies.

如何更方便地追蹤聯絡史，

One of the top teams that emerged out of our cohack,

不是關注於追蹤者，

the TW response from the Polis,

也不是關注醫務人員， 而是在於被追蹤的人。

總之他們會說好吧，你有一部手機，

how to make contact tracing easier,

你能記錄你的體溫，

focused not on the contact tracers,

你能記錄行蹤或是其他事情，

not on the medical officers, but on the person.

但這些資訊嚴格保存在你的手機上。

So they basically said, "OK, you have a phone,

甚至不使用藍牙，

you can record your temperatures,

所以資訊沒有傳播。

you can record your whereabouts and things like that,

這個技術使用開放原始碼，

你能檢查它，你能在飛行模式時使用它。

but that is strictly in your phone.

當追蹤人員最終告訴你，

It doesn't even use Bluetooth.

So there's no transmission.

你屬於新冠高風險族群，

Technology uses open-source,

他們需要你接觸史，

you can check it, you can use it in airplane mode.

這個工具能生成一次性網址連結，

And when the contact tracer eventually tells you

這個網址只包含了

that you are part of a high-risk group,

追蹤者所需的匿名明確資訊。

and they really want your contact history,

this tool can then generate a single-use URL

但這不會像傳統的面談，

that only contains the precise information,

像是他們發問，只想知道你的行蹤記錄，

anonymized,

that the contact tracers want.

But it will not, like in a traditional interview,

但你為了精確地回答，

同時也暴露了他人的隱私。

let you ask --

所以基本上，

they ask a question, they only want to know your whereabouts,

這設計始於保護他人隱私。

but you answer with such accuracy

that you end up compromising other people's privacy.

因為個人資訊從來都不是純粹私人的。

So basically, this is about designing

它總是社交性的、互相關聯的。

with an aim to enhance other people's privacy,

如果我在派對上拍一張自拍，

because personal data is never truly personal.

我不經意間也拍下了別人

It's always social, it's always intersectional.

誰在照片裡，週圍是什麼，氣氛等等，

If I take a selfie at a party,

如果我把這張照片上傳到雲端，

I inadvertently also take pretty much everybody else's

那麼我實際上降低了議價能力，

who are in the picture, the surroundings, the ambiance, and so on,

以及我週圍每個人的談判權，

and if I upload it to a cloud service,

因為他們的資訊也是雲端的一部分，

then I actually decimate the bargaining power,

雲端不必補償他們

the negotiation power of everybody around me,

或是得到他們的同意。

所以只有藉由設計工具

because then their data is part of the cloud,

以提高隱私為正向指標，

and the cloud doesn't have to compensate them

不僅增強個人的隱私，

or get their agreement for it.

And so only by designing the tools

像是醫用口罩，它保護了你，

也在大多數情況下保護他人，對不對？

with privacy enhancing as a positive value,

所以若我們依此想法設計工具，

and not enhancing only the person's own privacy,

並且始終保持開源，並帶有開放的 API，

just like a medical mask, it protects you,

but mostly it also protects others, right?

那麼我們的狀況要比

So if we design tools using that idea,

集中式或所謂的雲端服務好得多。

and always open-source and with an open API,

比：嗯，你顯然生活在未來，

then we're in a much better shape

than in centralized or so-called cloud-based services.

而這不只是比喻，

你那邊也已經是明天早上。

DB: Well, you're clearly living in the future,

唐：12 小時。

比：是的。

告訴我：你眼中的未來，

and I guess that's quite literal,

in the sense of, it's tomorrow morning there.

接下來會發生什麼？

AT: Twelve hours.

DB: Yes.

唐: 好的，我認為新冠病毒 是一個很好的放大器。

Tell me, what do you see in the future?

如果你從一個專制社會開始，

What comes next?

AT: Yes, so I see the coronavirus as a great amplifier.

新冠病毒，以及它帶來的封鎖等等，

有可能造就一個更極權主義的社會。

If you start with an authoritarian society,

但是，如果人們將他們的信任

the coronavirus, with all its lockdowns and so on,

託付於社會各部門上，

has the potential of making it even a more totalitarian society.

信任社會創新者的聰明才智，

那麼這場大流行，就像在台灣一樣，

If people place their trust, however,

實際上強化了我們的民主，

on the social sector,

讓人們真正感受到，每個人都可以想出一些

on the ingenuity of social innovators,

改善福利的事情，

then the pandemic, as in Taiwan,

不僅是在台灣，而是世界上幾乎所有其他人。

actually strengthens our democracy,

so that people feel, truly, that everybody can think of something

所以，我的意思是，

that improves the welfare of not just Taiwan,

不管你願意不願意，大放大器都會來，

but pretty much everybody else in the world.

但社會能做的

就是做 SARS 之後台灣做的事情。

And so, my point here

is that the great amplifier comes if no matter you want it or not,

2003年 SARS 來臨時，

我們不得不關閉了整個醫院，封鎖了它，

but the society, what they can do, is do what Taiwan did after SARS.

沒有明確的終止日期。

In 2003, when SARS came,

這是非常痛苦的，

30 歲以上的每個人 都記得那是多麼的痛苦。

we had to shut down an entire hospital,

barricading it with no definite termination date.

市政當局和中央政府的說法截然不同，

It was very traumatic,

這就是為什麼在 SARS 之後，

everybody above the age of 30 remembers how traumatic it was.

憲法法院要求立法機關 建立你今天看到的系統，

The municipalities

and the central government were saying very different things,

這也是為什麼人們在 2003 年 應對那場危機時

and that is why after SARS,

the constitutional courts charged the legislature

建立了這個非常強大的響應系統， 有早期的演習。

to set up the system as you see today,

and also that is why,

因此，就像向日葵佔領運動一樣，

when people responding to that crisis back in 2003

信任危機讓我們建立 把信任放在首位的新工具，

built this very robust response system that there's early drills.

So just as the Sunflower Occupy,

我認為冠狀病毒是個機會，

because of the crisis in trust let us build new tools

讓每個第一波浪潮中的倖存者 有機會建立一套新的規範

that put trust first,

I think the coronavirus is the chance for everybody who have survived

強化你的創始價值觀，

而不是以生存為名，接受外來的價值觀。

through the first wave

to settle on a new set of norms that will reinforce your founding values,

比：沒錯，我們希望如此，

instead of taking on alien values in the name of survival.

我們希望下一次世界其他地方

方 也像台灣一樣做好準備。

DB: Yeah, let's hope so,

and let's hope the rest of the world is as prepared as Taiwan

然而談到數字民主和數字公民時，

您認為這在台灣 和世界其他地方的走向為何？

the next time around.

When it comes to digital democracy, though,

唐：我讀我的工作描述給你聽。

and digital citizenship,

where do you see that going,

both in Taiwan and maybe in the rest of the world?

這實際上是我的工作描述 和這個問題的答案。

AT: Well, I have my job description here,

我們看見「萬物聯網」， 願我們將智慧聯網。

which I will read to you.

It's literally my job description and the answer to that question.

我們看見「虛擬實境」， 願我們將實境共享。

And so, here goes.

When we see the internet of things,

我們看見「機器學習」， 願我們能協力學習。

let's make it the internet of beings.

When we see virtual reality,

let's make it a shared reality.

我們看見「用戶體驗」， 願我們能體驗人際。

When we see machine learning,

let's make it collaborative learning.

我們聽到「奇點即將接近」， 但願我們惦記：「眾點」就在這裡。

When we see user experience,

let's make it about human experience.

謝謝你的聆聽。

And whenever we hear the singularity is near,

比：哇。我必須稍稍鼓掌，太美了。

let us always remember

the plurality is here.

Thank you for listening.

（笑聲）

職位描述得很不錯。

DB: Wow.

保守的無政府主義者、數字部長， 以及這份工作描述——

I have to give that a little clap,

that was beautiful.

比：這令人印象深刻。 唐：是個詩人。

(Laughs)

Quite a job description too.

So, conservative anarchist,

（笑聲）

digital minister, and with that job description --

比：那麼，

我很難想像美國會採用這些技術，

that's pretty impressive.

AT: A poetician, yes.

DB: (Laughs)

So I struggle to imagine

這可能是我的悲觀情緒在起作用。

但是當我們應對 COVID 時， 你對美國有什麼希望的話？

an adoption of these techniques in the US,

and that may be my pessimism weighing in.

唐：就像我提到的，在台灣 SARS 期間，

But what words of hope do you have for the US, as we cope with COVID?

沒有人想到我們會有 CECC 和一隻可愛的代言狗。

AT: Well, as I mentioned, during SARS in Taiwan,

在向日葵運動之前， 在一場大規模的抗議活動中，

nobody imagined we could have CECC and a cute spokesdog.

我想，街上有 50 萬人，甚至更多。

沒有人認為我們會有一個集體情報系統，

Before the Sunflower movement, during a large protest,

there was, I think, half a million people on the street, and many more.

將開放的政府數據 作為重建公民參與的一種方式。

Nobody thought that we could have a collective intelligence system

所以，永遠不要失去希望。

正如我喜歡的歌手兼詩人 倫納德·科恩（Leonard Cohen）

that puts open government data

as a way to rebuild citizen participation.

喜歡說的那樣：

「鐘能敲響就敲響，

And so, never lose hope.

十全樽俎莫指望。

As my favorite singer, Leonard Cohen -- a poet, also -- is fond of saying,

萬事萬物都有缺口， 缺口就是光的入口。」

"Ring the bells that still can ring

and forget any perfect offering.

羅：哇。太美了。

There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in."

感覺就是留給觀眾很棒的信息和情緒。

WPR: Wow.

唐鳳，大家都非常感激你的分享，

That's so beautiful,

and it feels like such a great message to, sort of, leave the audience with,

所有偉大的信息、慧眼和台灣的策略。

and sharing the sentiment

that everyone seems to be so grateful for what you've shared, Audrey,

唐：謝謝。

and all the great information and insight into Taiwan's strategies.

比：我只是想說非常感謝你， 感謝你漂亮的職位描述，

和你快速分享的所有智慧。

AT: Thank you.

WPR: And David --

DB: I was just going to say, thank you so much for that,

您不僅僅分享一個想法，

thank you for that beautiful job description,

而是 20、30、40 個想法？

and for all the wisdom you shared in rapid-fire fashion.

我數不清了。

（笑聲）

I think it wasn't just one idea that you shared,

唐：它叫做 Ideas Worth Spreading， 複數形式。

but maybe, I don't know, 20, 30, 40?

（笑聲）

I lost count at some point.

比：非常正確。非常感謝你參與。

AT: Well, it's called Ideas Worth Spreading,

羅：謝謝你，唐鳳。 比：祝你一切順利。

it's a plural form.

(Laughter)

唐：謝謝。祝您在本地愉快，平平安安。

DB: Very true.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

WPR: Thank you, Audrey.

DB: And I wish you luck with everything.

AT: Thank you, and have a good local time.

Stay safe.