Shonda Rhimes and Cyndi Stivers: The future of storytelling | TED

譯者: Estella Law 審譯者: Jen Chuang

Cyndi Stivers: So, future of storytelling.

辛蒂史帝佛斯：關於說故事的未來。

Before we do the future,

在我們談未來之前，

let's talk about what is never going to change about storytelling.

我們先談談，關於說故事， 永遠不會變的有哪些。

Shonda Rhimes: What's never going to change.

珊達萊梅斯：永遠不會變的。

Obviously, I think good stories are never going to change,

顯然，我認為好故事永遠不會改變，

the need for people to gather together and exchange their stories

人們需要聚在一起交換彼此的故事，

and to talk about the things that feel universal,

需要談論那些感覺普世的事情，

the idea that we all feel a compelling need to watch stories,

我們都有股強烈的需求 去觀賞故事、

to tell stories, to share stories --

去說故事、去分享故事，

sort of the gathering around the campfire

有點像圍著營火，

to discuss the things that tell each one of us

討論一些事來告訴我們每個人

that we are not alone in the world.

我們在世界上並不孤單。

Those things to me are never going to change.

對我而言，那些都是不會改變的。

That essence of storytelling is never going to change.

故事的那種本質是永遠不會改變的。

CS: OK. In preparation for this conversation,

辛蒂：好，為了準備這場對談，

I checked in with Susan Lyne,

我和蘇珊林恩因談過，

who was running ABC Entertainment

當你在做《實習醫生》時，

when you were working on "Grey's Anatomy" --

ABC 娛樂台是她在經營。

SR: Yes.

珊達：是的。

CS: And she said that there was this indelible memory she had

辛蒂：她說她有個難忘的記憶，

of your casting process,

和你的選角過程有關，

where without discussing it with any of the executives,

在沒有和任何主管討論過的情況下，

you got people coming in to read for your scripts,

你就找人來試鏡，

and every one of them was the full range of humanity,

且有許多來自三教九流的人。

you did not type anyone in any way,

你並沒有以任何方式將任何人分類，

and that it was completely surprising.

這點非常讓人訝異。

So she said, in addition to retraining the studio executives,

她說，除了重新教育了 電視公司的主管之外，

you also, she feels,

她覺得你也──

and I think this is -- I agree,

而這點我也同意──

retrained the expectations of the American TV audience.

重新教育了美國電視觀眾的期望。

So what else does the audience not yet realize that it needs?

還有什麼是觀眾自己 還不知道他們需要的？

SR: What else does it not yet realize?

珊達：觀眾自己還不知道的？

Well, I mean, I don't think we're anywhere near there yet.

嗯，我覺得我們 還沒辦法回答這個問題。

I mean, we're still in a place

我是說，我們還在一個

in which we're far, far behind what looks like the real world in actuality.

和看似真實世界相距甚遠的地方。

I wasn't bringing in a bunch of actors

我並沒有請來一群

who looked very different from one another

看起來非常不同的演員，

simply because I was trying to make a point,

只因為我想闡明一個重點，

and I wasn't trying to do anything special.

並不是為了標新立異。

It never occurred to me that that was new, different or weird.

我從未想過那麼做是新的、 不同的或怪異的。

I just brought in actors because I thought they were interesting

請那些演員來試鏡， 只因為我覺得他們有趣，

and to me, the idea that it was completely surprising to everybody --

對我而言，這個想法讓大家感到驚訝，

I didn't know that for a while.

但我有一段時間毫無所覺。

I just thought: these are the actors I want to see play these parts.

我只是想：我想看 這些演員詮釋這些角色。

我想看他們讀劇本的模樣。

I want to see what they look like if they read.

看看會如何。

We'll see what happens.

So I think the interesting thing that happens is

我想，這當中很有趣的事是，

that when you look at the world through another lens,

當你用不同的濾鏡看世界時，

when you're not the person normally in charge of things,

當你不再是一貫主導事情的人時，

it just comes out a different way.

世界看起來就不一樣了。

CS: So you now have this big machine that you run,

辛蒂：以你現在運作的這個大機器，

as a titan -- as you know, last year when she gave her talk --

這個巨擘──如你所知， 去年當她來演說時──

she's a titan.

她是個巨擘。

So what do you think is going to happen as we go on?

依你所見，接下來會發生什麼事？

There's a huge amount of money involved in producing these shows.

製作這些節目涉及了龐大的金錢。

While the tools of making stories have gone and gotten greatly democratized,

雖然製造故事的工具變得更大眾化，

there's still this large distribution:

還是有很大範圍的傳播：

people who rent networks, who rent the audience to advertisers

租電視頻道的人， 在各個時段賣廣告給廠商，

and make it all pay.

讓所有人買單的人。

How do you see the business model changing now that anyone can be a storyteller?

現在每個人都可以說故事，對於商業 模式的轉變來說，你有什麼看法？

SR: I think it's changing every day.

珊達：我認為它每天都在改變。

I mean, the rapid, rapid change that's happening is amazing.

快速、快速改變的一切很了不起。

And I feel -- the panic is palpable,

我覺得⋯⋯明顯地恐慌，

and I don't mean that in a bad way.

並不是件壞事。

I think it's kind of exciting.

反而蠻讓人興奮的。

The idea that there's sort of an equalizer happening,

有某種平衡機制正在發生，

that sort of means that anybody can make something, is wonderful.

意味著任何人都可以做些什麼， 這概念十分美好。

I think there's some scary in the idea that you can't find the good work now.

我想，現在說找不到好作品， 是件可怕的事。

There's so much work out there.

世界上充斥著這麼多作品。

I think there's something like 417 dramas on television right now

現在光電視上大概 就有 417 個電視劇，

at any given time in any given place,

任何時段任何地點都有。

but you can't find them.

但你就是找不到。

You can't find the good ones.

你找不到好的作品。

So there's a lot of bad stuff out there because everybody can make something.

現在有太多糟糕的作品， 因為每個人都可以做出點什麼。

It's like if everybody painted a painting.

就好像每個人都在畫同一幅畫。

You know, there's not that many good painters.

並沒有那麼多好畫家。

But finding the good stories, the good shows,

要找到好故事、好節目，

is harder and harder and harder.

是越來越難了。

Because if you have one tiny show over here on AMC

因為在 AMC 電視台上 有一個小節目，

and one tiny show over here over there,

這裡有一個，那裡有一個，

finding where they are becomes much harder.

要找到它們在哪裡就變得更困難。

So I think that ferreting out the gems

我認為搜尋寶石，

and finding out who made the great webisode and who made this,

找出誰做了很棒的網路劇集、 誰做了這個，

it's -- I mean, think about the poor critics

它⋯⋯我是說，想想可憐的劇評家，

who now are spending 24 hours a day

他們現在一天要花 24 小時，

trapped in their homes watching everything.

困在家裡看所有的東西。

It's not an easy job right now.

這不是容易的工作。

So the distribution engines are getting more and more vast,

所以，傳播引擎變得愈來愈廣大，

but finding the good programming for everybody in the audience

但要為每個觀眾找到好的節目

is getting harder.

愈來愈難。

And unlike the news,

和新聞不同，

where everything's getting winnowed down to just who you are,

對新聞而言，一切已經 被剔除到只剩下你是誰，

television seems to be getting --

電視似乎越來越──

and by television I mean anything you can watch, television shows on --

所謂電視是指任何 能收看的電視節目──

seems to be getting wider and wider and wider.

似乎是變得愈來愈寬廣。

And so anybody's making stories,

所以任何人都在製造故事，

and the geniuses are sometimes hidden.

反而天才有時被埋沒了。

But it's going to be harder to find,

會愈來愈難找到，

and at some point that will collapse.

到某個臨界點，就會崩垮。

People keep talking about peak TV.

人們不斷談論 電視高峰（peak TV）。

I don't know when that's going to happen.

我不知道那何時會發生。

I think at some point it'll collapse a little bit

我想到某個時間，它會開始崩解，

and we'll, sort of, come back together.

而我們就會回到一體。

I don't know if it will be network television.

我不知道會不會是以 電視聯播網的方式出現。

I don't know if that model is sustainable.

我不知道這個模型是否永續。

CS: What about the model

辛蒂：那麼亞馬遜和網飛（Netflix）

that Amazon and Netflix are throwing a lot of money around right now.

投入很多錢的那個模式又如何呢？

SR: That is true.

珊達：確實。

I think it's an interesting model.

我認為那是有趣的模式。

I think there's something exciting about it.

我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

For content creators, I think there's something exciting about it.

對內容創作者而言， 我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

For the world, I think there's something exciting about it.

對世界而言， 我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

The idea that there are programs now

有這些節目

that can be in multiple languages with characters from all over the world

能被多重語言觀賞， 主角們來自世界各地，

that are appealing and come out for everybody at the same time

都很吸引人，且能讓所有人同時觀看，

is exciting.

這個概念很讓人興奮。

I mean, I think the international sense that television can now take on

我是說，電視現在 能夠呈現出的國際感，

makes sense to me,

我覺得很合理，

that programming can now take on.

節目的國際觀。

Television so much is made for, like -- here's our American audience.

我們太多節目都是製作給⋯⋯ 像在這裡是給美國的觀眾。

We make these shows,

我們製作那些節目，

and then they shove them out into the world

把它們推出給外界，

and hope for the best,

期望能有最好的結果，

as opposed to really thinking about the fact that America is not it.

卻沒有真正想到美國不代表全世界。

I mean, we love ourselves and everything, but it's not i.

不管我們多愛自己， 美國不代表全世界。

And we should be taking into account the fact

我們應該要想，

that there are all of these other places in the world

世界上有這麼多其他地方，

that we should be interested in while we're telling stories.

是我們可以在說故事這塊著墨的。

It makes the world smaller.

這樣能讓世界變小。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think it pushes forward the idea that the world is a universal place,

我想，這個模式說明， 世界是全人類的地方，

and our stories become universal things.

而我們的故事變成是全人類的產物。

We stop being other.

我們不再是他者。

CS: You've pioneered, as far as I can see,

辛蒂：就我所知，你開創了

interesting ways to launch new shows, too.

很有意思的方式來發表新節目。

I mean, when you launched "Scandal" in 2012,

我是說，當你在 2012 年 推出《醜聞風暴》，

there was this amazing groundswell of support on Twitter

推特上的支持迅速高漲，非常驚人，

the likes of which nobody had seen before.

可以說是前所未見。

Do you have any other tricks up your sleeve

你在要發表下一個節目時，

when you launch your next one?

還有任何其他的袖裡玄機嗎？

What do you think will happen in that regard?

在這件事上，你認為未來會如何？

SR: We do have some interesting ideas.

珊達：我們確實有些很有趣的點子。

We have a show called "Still Star-Crossed" coming out this summer.

今年夏天我們會推出 一個節目《悲戀再續》。

We have some interesting ideas for that.

對那節目，我們有一些 很有趣的點子。

我不確定來不來得及實現那些點子。

I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do them in time.

我認為它們很好玩也很好笑。

I thought they were fun.

但在推特上直播節目的這個想法，

But the idea that we would live-tweet our show

其實只是我們認為那樣會很好玩。

was really just us thinking that would be fun.

我們沒料到評論界會 和我們一起推特直播。

We didn't realize that the critics would start to live-tweet along with us.

但影迷們──讓人們成為 節目的一部分，

But the fans -- getting people to be a part of it,

making it more of a campfire --

讓它更像個營火──

you know, when you're all on Twitter together

你知道，當大家都一起在推特上，

所有人一起說話，

and you're all talking together,

it is more of a shared experience,

它就更像是共有的經驗，

and finding other ways to make that possible

找到其他方式讓共有成為可能，

and finding other ways to make people feel engaged

找到其他方式讓人們有參與感，

是很重要的。

is important.

CS: So when you have all those different people making stories

辛蒂：當有這麼多 不同的人在創造故事，

and only some of them are going to break through

卻只有其中一些人能夠成功，

and get that audience somehow,

得到觀眾的心，

how do you think storytellers will get paid?

你認為說故事的人要如何賺錢？

SR: I actually have been struggling with this concept as well.

珊達：我其實也對這個觀念很掙扎。

Is it going to be a subscriber model?

將來會是訂閱模式嗎？

Are people going to say, like, I'm going to watch this particular person's shows,

人們是否會說， 我就是要看這個人的節目，

and that's how we're going to do it?

而我們就要採用這個做法？

CS: I think we should buy a passport to Shondaland. Right?

辛蒂：我們應買本 到珊達國度的護照，對吧？

SR: I don't know about that, but yeah. That's a lot more work for me.

珊達：這我就不知道了， 但對我來說是有更多事要做。

I do think that there are going to be different ways,

我確實認為將來會有不同的方式，

but I don't know necessarily.

只是我不知道是什麼。

I mean, I'll be honest and say a lot of content creators

我的意思是，老實說， 許多內容創造者

are not necessarily interested in being distributors,

並不見得有興趣做發行者，

mainly because what I dream of doing

主要是因為我夢想要做的事，

is creating content.

就是創造內容。

I really love to create content.

我真的很愛創造內容。

I want to get paid for it

我想靠它來賺錢，

and I want to get paid the money that I deserve to get paid for it,

且我想要賺到我用它應該賺得的錢，

這是有難度的。

and there's a hard part in finding that.

但我也希望能創造可能性，

But I also want it to be made possible

for, you know, the people who work with me,

為了那些和我一同工作的人

the people who work for me,

和那些為我工作的人，

everybody to sort of get paid in a way, and they're all making a living.

讓大家都能賺到錢，都能謀生。

How it gets distributed is getting harder and harder.

要如何發行就變得愈來愈困難。

CS: How about the many new tools,

辛蒂：那麼眾多的新工具呢？

you know, VR, AR ...

虛擬實境、擴增實境⋯⋯

I find it fascinating that you can't really binge-watch,

我覺得很炫的是，你無法狂看、刷劇，

you can't fast-forward in those things.

你不能快轉這些東西。

What do you see as the future of those for storytelling?

未來把這些技術用在說故事上， 你有什麼看法？

SR: I spent a lot of time in the past year

珊達：過去一年我花了許多時間

just exploring those,

單純在探究那些工具，

getting lots of demonstrations and paying attention.

得到許多展示，密切關注。

I find them fascinating,

我覺得它們令人驚艷，

mainly because I think that --

主要是因為我認為

I think most people think of them for gaming,

大部分人都會把它們和遊戲聯想，

I think most people think of them for things like action,

大部分人都會把它們和動作聯想，

and I think that there is a sense of intimacy

我覺得有一種親密感

that is very present in those things,

顯然存在於這些新技術中。

the idea that -- picture this,

這個想法⋯⋯想像一下，

you can sit there and have a conversation with Fitz,

你可以坐在那裡， 和費茲交談，

or at least sit there while Fitz talks to you,

或至少費茲對你說話時 可以坐在那裡，

President Fitzgerald Grant III,

費茲是《醜聞風暴》中的總統，

while he talks to you

當他對你說

about why he's making a choice that he makes,

為什麼他要做出那些選擇時，

and it's a very heartfelt moment.

那是個非常真誠的時刻。

And instead of you watching a television screen,

你不是在看著電視螢幕，

you're sitting there next to him, and he's having this conversation.

你是坐在他旁邊，和他對談。

Now, you fall in love with the man

當這個人在電視螢幕上

while he's doing it from a television screen.

這麼做時就已經能讓你愛上他，

Imagine sitting next to him,

想像一下坐在他旁邊，

or being with a character like Huck who's about to execute somebody.

或像哈克這個角色， 他正要處死某人。

And instead of having a scene

你眼前不再只有一個場景

where, you know, he's talking to another character very rapidly,

是他對著另一個角色快速說話，

he goes into a closet and turns to you and tells you, you know,

而是他走進一間小室， 轉向你，告訴你

what's going to happen and why he's afraid and nervous.

接下來發生的事， 和他感到害怕緊張的原因。

It's a little more like theater, and I'm not sure it would work,

這會比較像戲院，我不確定會成功，

but I'm fascinating by the concept of something like that

但我覺得這個概念

以及它對觀眾的意義，都令人驚艷。

and what that would mean for an audience.

And to get to play with those ideas would be interesting,

能夠運用那些點子，會很有趣，

and I think, you know, for my audience, the people who watch my shows,

我認為，對我的觀眾而言， 看我的節目的人，

which is, you know, women 12 to 75,

也就是從 12 到 75 歲的女性，

there's something interesting in there for them.

對他們來說是有趣的。

CS: And how about the input of the audience?

辛蒂：那麼觀眾的參與度如何？

How interested are you in the things

你對於這種事有多感興趣？

where the audience can actually go up to a certain point

像是觀眾可能在劇中某個點決定，

and then decide, oh wait, I'm going to choose my own adventure.

喔，等等，我要選擇 有自己的冒險；

I'm going to run off with Fitz or I'm going to run off with --

我要和費茲私奔，或我要和⋯⋯

珊達：噢，那些 「選擇你自己的冒險」的故事。

SR: Oh, the choose- your-own-adventure stories.

I have a hard time with those,

它們會讓我困擾，

and not necessarily because I want to be in control of everything,

並不是因為我想要控制一切，

but because when I'm watching television or I'm watching a movie,

但當我在看電視或電影時，

I know for a fact that a story is not as good

我知道

當我能完全掌控故事的走向 和別人的角色時，

when I have control over exactly what's going to happen

to somebody else's character.

故事就不會那麼精彩。

You know, if I could tell you exactly what I wanted to happen to Walter White,

如果我能告訴你我希望 沃特懷特發生什麼事，

that's great, but the story is not the same, and it's not as powerful.

那很棒，但故事就變了， 它就沒有強大的力量。

You know, if I'm in charge of how "The Sopranos" ends,

如果由我主導《黑道家族》的結局，

then that's lovely and I have an ending that's nice and satisfying,

那很好，我想要 很棒又讓人滿意的結局，

但那就是不同的故事， 情緒上的衝擊也不同。

but it's not the same story and it's not the same emotional impact.

CS: I can't stop imagining what that might be.

辛蒂：我無法不去想像 那會是什麼樣子。

Sorry, you're losing me for a minute.

抱歉，我出神了一下。

SR: But what's wonderful is I don't get to imagine it,

珊達：但很美好的一點是， 我不用去想像它，

because Vince has his own ending,

因為文斯有他自己的結局，

and it makes it really powerful to know that somebody else has told.

因為是別人設定的結局， 才讓它那麼強大。

You know, if you could decide that, you know,

你知道，如果你能決定

in "Jaws," the shark wins or something,

《大白鯊》中是不是鯊魚贏，

it doesn't do what it needs to do for you.

它就不能發揮原來的作用。

The story is the story that is told,

故事就是它被說出來的樣子，

and you can walk away angry and you can walk away debating

你可以看完很生氣， 或是看完產生激辯，

and you can walk away arguing,

可以看完產生爭論，

but that's why it works.

但就是這樣才有效果。

That is why it's art.

那就是為什麼它是門藝術。

Otherwise, it's just a game,

否則，它就是個遊戲。

and games can be art, but in a very different way.

遊戲也可以是藝術， 但是截然不同的形式。

CS: Gamers who actually sell the right to sit there

辛蒂：遊戲者放棄了觀賞，

and comment on what's happening,

而是對劇情產生各種評論。

to me that's more community than storytelling.

對我而言，這像是社群論壇， 而不是說故事了。

SR: And that is its own form of campfire.

珊達：而且那就變成 自己的營火晚會了，

I don't discount that as a form of storytelling,

我無意貶損，

但這就會變成 集體創作的故事型態了。

but it is a group form, I suppose.

CS: All right, what about the super-super --

辛迪： 好的。那對於 那些特別特別⋯⋯

the fact that everything's getting shorter, shorter, shorter.

就是事物變得越來越簡短的現象。

And, you know, Snapchat now has something it calls shows

妳知道的，社交程式 Snapchat 上

現在流行一種一分鐘長的影片。

that are one minute long.

SR: It's interesting.

珊達：那挺有意思的。

Part of me thinks it sounds like commercials.

一方面，我認為那很像廣告，

I mean, it does -- like, sponsored by.

我是說，很像是，被贊助的感覺。

But part of me also gets it completely.

另一方面，我完全理解這個做法。

There's something really wonderful about it.

是種非常棒的做法。

If you think about a world

妳想想，世界上

in which most people are watching television on their phones,

大多數人用手機看電視。

你看像印度，

if you think about a place like India,

大部分資訊來自手機，

where most of the input is coming in

and that's where most of the product is coming in,

大多數產品跟和手機相關，

簡短就相當合理。

shorter makes sense.

If you can charge people more for shorter periods of content,

若可以用簡短的內容 收取更高的費用，

some distributor has figured out a way to make a lot more money.

有些發行者發現這是賺大錢的方法。

If you're making content,

創造內容的

it costs less money to make it and put it out there.

成本和宣傳費用也會變少。

And, by the way,

順道一提，

if you're 14 and have a short attention span, like my daughter,

如果你像我的女兒一樣 14 歲，注意力短，

that's what you want to see, that's what you want to make,

你就是想看簡短的內容， 你就是想做簡短的內容，

that's how it works.

這就是運作的方式。

And if you do it right and it actually feels like narrative,

如果做對得好，能感受到故事性，

people will hang on for it no matter what you do.

無論你怎麼做，人們都會留下來看。

CS: I'm glad you raised your daughters,

珊達：我很高興你有女兒，

because I am wondering how are they going to consume entertainment,

因為我很好奇她們如何接收娛樂

and also not just entertainment,

和娛樂以外的事，

but news, too.

例如新聞。

When they're not -- I mean, the algorithmic robot overlords

當她們仍未⋯⋯被過度的演算法

are going to feed them what they've already done.

一貫地根據她們的喜好推播資訊。

How do you think we will correct for that and make people well-rounded citizens?

你認為我們該如何匡正此現象， 教育觀眾為成熟的公民呢？

SR: Well, me and how I correct for it

辛蒂：嗯，我和如何糾正這個問題

is completely different than how somebody else might do it.

跟其他人的做法完全不同。

CS: Feel free to speculate.

辛蒂：請隨意猜測。

SR: I really don't know how we're going to do it in the future.

珊達：我真的不知道未來會怎麼樣。

I mean, my poor children have been the subject of all of my experiments.

我可憐的孩子們一直是我實驗的對象，

We're still doing what I call "Amish summers"

我們仍推行所謂的「阿米什夏天」，

where I turn off all electronics

我會關掉所有電子裝置、

and pack away all their computers and stuff

收走她們的電腦等玩意、

and watch them scream for a while until they settle down

讓她們叫囂，直到慢慢冷靜下來

into, like, an electronic-free summer.

過一個沒有電子用品的暑假。

But honestly, it's a very hard world

但老實說，這是個充滿挑戰的世界，

in which now, as grown-ups,

就連我們身為大人

we're so interested in watching our own thing,

都如此想看我們想看的，

and we don't even know that we're being fed, sometimes,

而不知道我們被灌輸的

just our own opinions.

有時只是我們的個別見解。

You know, the way it's working now,

目前的運作模式是，

you're watching a feed,

你在網上看個推播資訊，

and the feeds are being corrected

推播給你的資訊就會被更動，

so that you're only getting your own opinions

這樣你就會只收到 跟你想法一致的內容，

and you're feeling more and more right about yourself.

你就會對自己越來越肯定。

你要如何開始察覺？

So how do you really start to discern?

這些開始變得令人不舒服。

It's getting a little bit disturbing.

可能它們會矯枉過正， 可能它們會過於泛濫，

So maybe it'll overcorrect, maybe it'll all explode,

or maybe we'll all just become --

或者我們全部都會變成⋯⋯

I hate to be negative about it,

我討厭把它想得如此負面，

but maybe we'll all just become more idiotic.

但可能我們終將變得更加白癡。

(Cyndi laughs)

（辛蒂大笑）

CS: Yeah, can you picture any corrective that you could do

辛蒂：對，你可以想像 在編寫虛構的作品中

with scripted, fictional work?

修正什麼事嗎？

SR: I think a lot about the fact that television has the power

珊達：我常常思考， 電視有強大的力量

to educate people in a powerful way,

來教育群眾，

and when you're watching television --

當你在看電視時，

for instance, they do studies about medical shows.

譬如，關於醫學節目的研究。

I think it's 87 percent, 87 percent of people

我想有 87% 的人，

get most of their knowledge about medicine and medical facts

他們大部分的醫學常識

from medical shows,

來自於醫學節目，

much more so than they do from their doctors,

遠多於他們從醫生口中得知，

than from articles.

或是從閱讀醫學文章而來的。

So we work really hard to be accurate, and every time we make a mistake,

所以我們力求準確，每次我們犯錯

I feel really guilty, like we're going to do something bad,

我都感到非常愧疚， 像做了壞事一樣，

but we also give a lot of good medical information.

但我們也分享了 很多有用的醫學資訊。

There are so many other ways to give information on those shows.

在那些節目上提供資訊有很多種方式，

People are being entertained

觀眾把這些當作消遣，

或者他們並不想閱讀新聞，

and maybe they don't want to read the news,

但在節目上有很多提供 適當資訊的方式，

but there are a lot of ways to give fair information out on those shows,

not in some creepy, like, we're going to control people's minds way,

而不是恐怖的方式，好像 我們要操縱觀眾的思想，

but in a way that's sort of very interesting and intelligent

而是一種有趣又慧黠的形式，

and not about pushing one side's version or the other,

而不把單一觀點推給觀眾，

like, giving out the truth.

像是，交代事實真相。

It would be strange, though,

即使這樣聽起來很奇怪，

if television drama was how we were giving the news.

好像要用電視劇做新聞。

CS: It would be strange,

辛蒂：的確會很奇怪，

but I gather a lot of what you've written as fiction

但我想，很多你虛構出來的故事

has become prediction this season?

如今已成為這一季的預測？

SR: You know, "Scandal" has been very disturbing for that reason.

珊達：因此《醜聞風暴》一直很擾人。

We have this show that's about politics gone mad,

這個節目在講 政治的一發不可收拾──

and basically the way we've always told the show --

基本上我們告訴節目製作，

you know, everybody pays attention to the papers.

每個人都會留意報紙的報導。

We read everything. We talk about everything.

我們閱讀大小事、談論大小事。

We have lots of friends in Washington.

我們在華盛頓有很多朋友，

And we'd always sort of done our show as a speculation.

而我們把自己的節目當作一種推測。

We'd sit in the room and think,

我們會圍坐在房間揣想，

what would happen if the wheels came off the bus

如果發生錯誤，一發不可收拾，

and everything went crazy?

所有事完全失控怎麼辦？

And that was always great,

而結果通常很棒。

except now it felt like the wheels were coming off the bus

只不過現在感覺一切真的要大亂，

and things were actually going crazy,

所有事真的要失控，

so the things that we were speculating were really coming true.

我們揣想過的情節竟然成為現實。

I mean, our season this year

今年，我們這一季

was going to end with the Russians controlling the American election,

曾打算以俄羅斯操控 美國大選的事作結，

and we'd written it, we'd planned for it,

我們編寫內容、計劃一切，

it was all there,

準備就緒，

and then the Russians were suspected of being involved in the American election

然後俄羅斯就被捲入 美國大選的風波中，

and we suddenly had to change what we were going to do for our season.

我們突然得修改這一季的一切準備。

I walked in and I was like,

走進房間的時候，我說，

"That scene where our mystery woman starts speaking Russian?

「神秘女郎開始說俄語那幕？

我們要改掉，想想要怎樣做。」

We have to fix that and figure out what we're going to do."

That just comes from extrapolating

那只是推斷得來的，

out from what we thought was going to happen,

從我們原來認為會發生、

or what we thought was crazy.

或以為很瘋狂的事推斷而來的。

CS: That's great.

辛蒂：那是很棒的事。

So where else in US or elsewhere in the world do you look?

那從你的角度，在美國或任何地方

Who is doing interesting storytelling right now?

誰在說有趣的故事呢？

SR: I don't know, there's a lot of interesting stuff out there.

珊達：不知道，有很多有趣的事。

Obviously British television is always amazing

英國的電視節目明顯令人驚艷，

and always does interesting things.

也一直在製作有趣的節目。

I don't get to watch a lot of TV,

我無法常看電視，

mainly because I'm busy working.

主要是因為太忙於工作。

And I pretty much try not to watch very much television at all,

同時在我忙完一季工作前，

even American television, until I'm done with a season,

我也儘量少看電視， 即使那是美國電視節目。

because things start to creep into my head otherwise.

否則內容會不知不覺佔據我的腦袋。

I start to wonder, like,

我就會開始想，

why can't our characters wear crowns and talk about being on a throne?

為什麼角色不可以戴著皇冠 談論身為王室的感想？

It gets crazy.

這很荒唐。

So I try not to watch much until the seasons are over.

所以一季節目結束前我不會看太多，

But I do think that there's a lot of interesting European television out there.

但我的確認為有很多有趣的 歐洲電視節目。

I was at the International Emmys

我之前在國際艾美奬頒獎禮上，

and looking around and seeing the stuff that they were showing,

四處觀賞他們展出的東西，

and I was kind of fascinated.

而我被迷住了。

There's some stuff I want to watch and check out.

有不少我想看也想多知道的內容。

CS: Can you imagine --

辛蒂：你可否想像⋯⋯

I know that you don't spend a lot of time thinking about tech stuff,

我知道你並沒有太多時間研究科技，

but you know how a few years ago we had someone here at TED

但你知道幾年前有人在 TED

talking about seeing,

談到觀看、

wearing Google Glass and seeing your TV shows essentially in your eye?

戴著谷歌眼鏡看電視 幾乎等於從眼睛裡看？

Do you ever fantasize when, you know --

你有沒有幻想過

the little girl who sat on the pantry floor

當你仍是那個坐在你父母家中

in your parents' house,

廚房地板上的小女孩時，

did you ever imagine any other medium?

有一天會出現其他媒介嗎？

Or would you now?

或者你現在有想過這個問題？

SR: Any other medium.

珊達：任何其他媒介。

For storytelling, other than books?

用書本以外講故事的媒介？

I mean, I grew up wanting to be Toni Morrison, so no.

我小時候希望長大後會變成 童妮摩里森，所以不！

I mean, I didn't even imagine television.

我連電視都沒有想過。

So the idea that there could be some bigger world,

所以，想到會有一個更大的世界、

some more magical way of making things ---

有更魔幻的方式去創造事物⋯⋯

I'm always excited when new technology comes out

我總會對新科技的推出感到興奮，

and I'm always the first one to want to try it.

而我總是第一個希望嘗試的人。

The possibilities feel endless and exciting right now,

這些新機會感覺無止盡 也很令人興奮，

which is what excites me.

這也是吸引我的部分。

We're in this sort of Wild West period, to me, it feels like,

我覺得我們好像處於蠻荒西部時期，

because nobody knows what we're going to settle on.

因為沒人知道我們將如何定型。

You can put stories anywhere right now

現在你把故事放在哪裡都可以，

and that's cool to me,

這對我來說是很酷的事。

and it feels like once we figure out how to get the technology

不過，一旦我們找到將科技

and the creativity of storytelling to meet,

和說故事的創意結合的方式，

the possibilities are endless.

那將有無限的可能性。

CS: And also the technology has enabled the thing I briefly flew by earlier,

辛蒂：科技也允許 我剛提過的事發生——

binge-viewing, which is a recent phenomenon,

觀看狂熱，這是最近有的現象，

since you've been doing shows, right?

自你製作節目開始，對吧？

And how do you think does that change the storytelling process at all?

你認為這現象會改變 說故事的過程嗎？

You always had a bible for the whole season beforehand, right?

你永遠都有本整個季度的 節目聖經在手，是嗎？

SR: No, I just always knew where we were going to end.

珊達：不，我只是 總知道什麼時候要結束。

So for me,

所以對我來說，

the only way I can really comment on that

我可以作出評論的唯一方法，

is that I have a show that's been going on for 14 seasons

是當有個已經播了 14 季的節目，

and so there are the people who have been watching it for 14 seasons,

有人已經追看了 14 季，

and then there are the 12-year-old girls I'd encounter in the grocery store

而我在超市遇到幾個 12 歲女孩

who had watched 297 episodes in three weeks.

用了三個星期追完 297 集。

Seriously, and that's a very different experience for them,

對他們來說那是非常不同的體驗，

because they've been inside of something

因為他們一直沉浸其中，

really intensely for a very short period of time

用極短的時間，

in a very intense way,

以強烈的方式，

and to them the story has a completely different arc

對他們而言，整個故事是不一樣的，

and a completely different meaning

有不一樣的意義，

because it never had any breaks.

因為他們看的故事從來沒有中斷過。

CS: It's like visiting a country and then leaving it. It's a strange --

辛蒂：就像遊覽完一個國家， 然後就離開了。感覺很奇怪⋯⋯

SR: It's like reading an amazing novel and then putting it down.

珊達：就像讀完一本精彩的小說， 然後把它放下。

I think that is the beauty of the experience.

我想這就是體驗的美好，

You don't necessarily have to watch something for 14 seasons.

你不一定要追看一套 14 季的節目，

It's not necessarily the way everything's supposed to be.

這不見得是每件事該有的形式。

CS: Is there any topic that you don't think we should touch?

辛蒂：有任何你不想談的話題嗎？

SR: I don't think I think of story that way.

珊達：我不認為我是這樣看故事的，

I think of story in terms of character and what characters would do

我認為故事是以人物， 以及他們會怎麼做、

and what characters need to do in order to make them move forward,

必須怎麼做來讓故事繼續發展，

so I'm never really thinking of story in terms of just plot,

所以我從不只以情節構想故事，

and when writers come into my writer's room and pitch me plot,

當作者走入我的工作室 說服我加入某些情節時，

I say, "You're not speaking English."

我會說：「你不是在說英文。」

Like, that's the thing I say.

我真的會這樣說。

We're not speaking English. I need to hear what's real.

我們不是在說英文， 我要聽到真實的部分，

And so I don't think of it that way.

所以我不會這樣想故事。

I don't know if there's a way to think there's something I wouldn't do

我不知道有沒有辦法 去思考我不會接觸的題材，

because that feels like I'm plucking pieces of plot off a wall or something.

因為那就像要我從牆上 拔出情節的碎片一樣。

CS: That's great. To what extent do you think you will use --

辛蒂：好，你認為你會怎樣運用⋯⋯

You know, you recently went on the board of Planned Parenthood

你最近成為「計劃生育」的董事，

and got involved in the Hillary Clinton campaign.

又參與了希拉蕊的助選活動，

To what extent do you think you will use your storytelling

你認為你會怎麼用說故事的能力，

in the real world

在現實世界中

to effect change?

帶來強而有力的改變？

SR: Well, you know, there's --

珊達：嗯，你知道，那⋯⋯

That's an intense subject to me,

對我來說是一個尖銳的問題，

because I feel like the lack of narrative

因為我覺得那缺少明確的陳述

that a lot of people have is difficult.

對許多人來說很困難。

You know, like, there's a lot of organizations

有很多組織

that don't have a positive narrative that they've created for themselves

沒有為自己創造一個正面的陳述

that would help them.

來幫助自己。

There's a lot of campaigns

有很多政治或商業活動

that could be helped with a better narrative.

只需要一個好的陳述。

The Democrats could do a lot

民主黨可以做更多事，

with a very strong narrative for themselves.

只要他們有一個令人信服的陳述。

There's a lot of different things that could happen

以運用說故事來表達而言，

in terms of using storytelling voice,

可能讓很多不同的事情發生，

and I don't mean that in a fiction way,

我不是指以虛構的形式，

I mean that in a same way that any speechwriter would mean it.

而是指每個為政治家寫演講稿的人 都會認同的實際方式。

And I see that,

我可以想見，

but I don't necessarily know that that's, like, my job to do that.

但我不確定那⋯⋯是不是我的工作。

CS: All right.

辛蒂：好的。

Please help me thank Shonda. SR: Thank you.

請替我感謝珊達。 珊達：謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）