What COVID-19 means for the future of commerce, capitalism and cash | Dan Schulman

翻译人员: Frank Cui 校对人员: Nan Yang

Corey Hajim: Today, our guest is Dan Schulman, CEO of PayPal.

科里·哈吉姆：今天，我们的嘉宾 是 PayPal 首席执行官丹·舒尔曼。

When most of us think of PayPal, we think of buying something online

当我们大多数人想到 PayPal 时， 都会想到网上购物，

or paying a friend back for a drink using Venmo.

或者使用 Venmo 给朋友打买饮料的钱。

But PayPal has also become a major financial services player,

但 PayPal 也是 一家重要的金融服务公司，

often acting as an alternative to a traditional bank.

经常作为传统银行的 替代机构运行。

During this pandemic,

在这场流行疫情中 ,

PayPal has supported small businesses around the world by providing loans,

PayPal 通过提供贷款，免收费用

和增加现金返还的计划，

waiving fees

and increasing cash back programs.

帮助了世界各地的小型企业。

It has also worked with the US government

它还与美国政府一起

on its Paycheck Protection Program,

进行了“薪水保护计划”，

as well as distributing stimulus checks.

并发放经济刺激支票。

It has enabled an outpouring of generosity online as well.

同时，PayPal 也使人们 在网上慷慨解囊成为了可能。

The trend towards digital payments,

电子支付，

or what we might now want to think of as "contactless payments,"

或者我们目前更习惯 称之为“非接触式付款”的趋势，

has massively accelerated,

已经大大加速了,

and it's changing forever how we think about commerce.

它永远改变了 我们思考商业的方式。

So I'm really excited to have Dan here with us.

很高兴丹今天能够加入我们。

Thank you so much, Dan.

非常感谢，丹。

Dan Schulman: Thanks for having me, Corey. Pleasure to be here with you.

丹：感谢你邀请我，科里。 很高兴能够参与这场对话。

CH: Glad to see you.

科里：很高兴见到你。

So let's dive right in.

我们开门见山好了。

Within a few months of this pandemic's arrival,

在疫情到来的几个月内，

more than 30 million people have filed for unemployment

仅在美国

就有超过 3000 万人申请失业。

in the United States alone.

These are certainly unusual circumstances,

这显然很不寻常，

but it seems clear we were running very close to the edge,

但无疑，事情随时可能进一步恶化。

and now so many businesses and their employees

现在有很多企业和员工

are facing huge financial challenges.

面临着巨大的财务困境。

How worried are you?

你是否也感到非常担忧？

DS: Well, I think the crisis has exposed three things.

丹：我认为这场危机 暴露了三件事。

Obviously, it's a health crisis

显然，对很多人来说，

for so many people.

这是一场健康危机。

Second thing is, that health crisis has ricocheted,

第二件事是， 这个健康危机影响范围更大了，

and the world is now in an economic crisis.

世界正处于经济危机中。

And the third crisis that we don't talk so much about

第三个我们没有过多谈论的危机，

but I think is impacting the way

我认为是正在影响

that we're going to live our lives going forward

我们未来生活方式的

is: this is a psychological crisis as well.

一场心理危机。

People are reexamining their place in the world,

人们正在重新审视 自己在世界上的位置 ,

what's happening in the world,

世界上正在发生的事情，

how they're going to live their lives,

疫情期间和疫情结束后

both in the pandemic and postpandemic.

他们将如何生活。

And so I think this is something that each of those phases

所以我认为这是每个阶段

will need to be dealt with.

都需要处理的事。

But you said this,

既然你提出来了，

and I completely agree with you:

我也完全同意您的观点：

there was an economic crisis happening

在疫情暴露这些问题之前,

well before the pandemic exposed this.

我们就已经经历着一场经济危机。

It's kind of like the water level came down

就像水位下降时

and exposed what was already there.

暴露出了已经存在的东西。

You had, for instance, in the US,

举个例子，在美国，

185 million adults in the US

有 1.85 亿成年人

struggling to make ends meet at the end of the month.

在月底就已经或接近透支了。

You have over 70 million adults that are really outside of the financial system,

有超过 7000 万成年人 被排斥在了金融体系之外，

spending over 140 billion dollars on high interest rates,

在高利率，

不必要的费用

和日常支出上 花费了超过 1400 亿美元。

unnecessary fees

and struggling as well.

And so I think what this has really done --

所以我认为， 这一切造成的后果是——

because you can't ignore 20, 25 percent unemployment rates --

因为我们无法忽略 20％ 到 25％ 的失业率——

it's exposed this crisis

它暴露了这个危机，

and forced a lot of people into, maybe, actions that they might not have taken

并迫使很多人被卷入 如果没有这场危机

without this crisis happening.

他们就不会采取的行动中。

CH: Yeah, I think that's right.

科里：是的，我同意这一点。

There are so many challenges and so many opportunities,

如今有着太多的挑战， 同时也有着太多机遇。

and I think you've spoken of this opportunity

你也指出了未来数字化交易

of digital transactions being helpful to people,

给人们提供了便利这一机遇。

and obviously the trend, as you've said,

而且就像你所说的 是显而易见的趋势，

has massively accelerated and pushed us into this world even further.

极大地加速并推动了 我们迈向这个新世界。

So I'm curious:

所以我非常好奇，

What does the world look like without cash?

一个没有，或者只有 很少现金流通的世界

Or less cash?

会是怎样一番景象？

What are the advantages and what are the challenges

这种转变的好处是什么？

of making that transition?

又面临哪些挑战？

DS: I think some of the trends that are emerging coming out of this pandemic

丹：我认为， 从这场疫情衍生出来的，

or coming into it and as we look forward is,

或是进入其中的一些趋势， 正如我们期待的，

clearly, this has been a discontinuous change in the trend line

很显然，从纸币 向电子支付过渡的过程

as we move from physical to digital.

是一个非连续的趋势线变化。

I think we've accelerated many forms of digital capabilities

我认为我们已经 将多种数字化功能

by three to five years.

实现的进程加速了三到五年。

And that can be from digital payments

这种变化从电子支付

to telemedicine

到远程医疗都有所体现，

to really changing the face of retail

真正改变了零售业的面貌

and how we think about retailing,

以及我们对零售的看法；

changing the face of entertainment,

改变了我们的娱乐方式，

even changing the way governments think about managing and moving money

甚至改变了政府思考 管理和转移货币的方式，

and really thinking about digital currencies going forward.

并且开始认真思考 电子货币的未来。

And so I think there are a tremendous number of changes

所以我认为，在这场疫情 和疫情结束后的时期，

that will occur

我们将会面对

during this pandemic and coming out of it.

翻天覆地的变化。

Digital payments is obviously one of the big ones that will happen.

电子支付显然是 注定发生的大事之一。

I mean, cash has been around for quite some time,

我们使用现金

thousands of years.

已有数千年的历史。

I would not be so bold as to predict its full demise.

我不会那么大胆 预测现金会被彻底取代。

Many people have been wrong doing that.

许多人那样认为， 其实是错误的。

But there is no question right now

但是现在，毫无疑问，

that you will see an acceleration of the demise of cash.

你会发现现金在加速消亡。

Last year, you had over 18 trillion dollars of cash

去年，全球零售业

有超过 18 万亿美元现金的流水。

spent at retail.

Eighty-five percent of the world's transactions today

当今世界 85% 的交易

are done in cash still.

依然通过现金来完成。

But the really big change right now

但是现在

towards digital payments,

电子支付的巨大变化，

and that's both the advent and the acceleration of commerce

以及商业的进步与加速

that's happening,

也正在发生，

as well as the shift to in-store contactless payments, as you said,

包括如你所说， 向店內非接触式支付转型，

and the real impetus for that is health reasons.

其背后的真正动力都是健康因素。

People do not want to hand over money.

人们不愿意交付纸币。

They do not want to touch screens.

他们不想触摸屏幕。

They don't want to pick up a pen and sign at the point of sale.

他们也不想拿起笔 在账单上签名。

And so there is a demand

所以对非接触式支付和电子支付

for contactless payments and digital payments

存在一类需求：

to keep social distancing requirements in place,

保持社交距离，

to protect the health of cashiers,

保护出纳员的健康，

to protect the health of consumers.

保护消费者的健康。

And I think we are going to see, we are already seeing in our business,

在我们的业务中已经观察到了

a surge in digital payments across the world.

世界范围内电子支付行为的激增。

CH: It seems like a great opportunity,

科里：听起来 这是一个巨大的机会，

but how do we make sure that this transition is inclusive?

但我们如何确定 这一转变具有包容性？

I mean, you've talked about how so many people are underserved

你已经提到大多数人

by the traditional banking industry.

未曾享受到传统银行业完善的服务。

How do we make sure that those people

我们怎么确保他们

have that opportunity?

也有同样的机会？

And it feels like a smartphone

电子支付好像 已经如同智能手机一样

becomes an essential item.

成为了生活中必不可少的事物。

How do we address that?

我们该如何解决？

DS: Yeah.

丹：是的，

I do think that a mobile is really a key to unlocking this.

我确信移动设备 是解决这个问题的关键。

I've often said that, really,

我经常说，

one of the big moon shots for the financial services industry

金融服务业的一大强心剂就是

is this idea of not just financial inclusion.

不仅只有金融包容性的理念。

Most people define financial inclusion

通常大部分人将金融包容性

by somebody having access to a bank account,

定义为人们有权使用银行账户。

but just having access to a bank account is not nearly enough.

但事实上， 仅有使用权还远远不够。

I think what we need to aim for

我认为我们需要把目标定为：

is how do we think about financial health?

我们如何看待财务健康？

How do we make sure that people have the ability

我们如何确保人们有能力

to have some wherewithal

储备足够的资金，

to create savings to withstand some kind of financial shock to the system?

以应对经济环境带来的财务冲击？

I do think that mobile phones

我坚定地认为

will be the way that this occurs

手机会是解决方法，

and will be very inclusive going forward.

并且在未来也能 拥有很好的包容性。

There are going to be something like six billion smartphones in the world

在未来的若干年内，

全世界智能手机的数量 将达到 60 亿。

over the next several years.

The cost of a smartphone is plummeting.

智能手机的成本正在直线下降，

I think in India now you can buy a smartphone for under 25 dollars.

在印度，不到 25 美元， 就可以买到一部智能手机。

So you're going to have ubiquity of smartphones across the world,

你会发现智能手机 在全世界都无处不在。

and, in fact, what's very interesting is, in lower-income populations,

事实上很有意思的是， 在较低收入人群中，

there is a greater penetration of smartphones than in higher income

智能手机的渗透率 要高于高收入人群。

because the smartphone is the only device that somebody has.

因为手机是他们唯一的电子设备。

Higher-income individuals may have desktops or iPads,

高收入个体也许有台式电脑

that kind of thing,

或 iPad 之类的设备，

but lower income can afford one device,

但是低收入个体 只负担得起一个电子设备，

and they choose it to be a smartphone

而他们选择的是智能手机。

because they can get and live their life through that one device.

因为他们可以负担得起， 并且用这一台设备生活。

And think about that one device.

想一想有这样一个设备，

Really, you have all the power of a bank branch

可以实现一个银行支行

in the palm of your hands.

所提供的所有服务。

And when you can start to create distribution of services,

当你可以开始

通过智能手机

financial services,

进行金融服务分配时，

through a smartphone,

you then are able to manage and move money

你就可以通过 用传统途径无法实现的方式

in ways that we couldn't do traditionally.

来管理和移动资金。

In the physical world,

在现实世界，

if you get a check,

如果你有一张支票，

you need to then go to a cash checking place to cash it.

你需要去特定地点进行兑换。

You stand in line for 30 minutes.

你需要排队 30 分钟，

They then charge you anywhere between two and five percent

他们还要收取你 2% 到 5% 的手续费——

to just change the format of currency

仅仅是改变了货币的形式，

from a check to cash.

从支票到现金。

And then you have cash and you want to pay a bill.

然后你拿着现金想要支付账单，

You need to stand in line again

你同样要在特定地点

at a bill pay,

排队等候服务。

and then you have to pay maybe 10 dollars

之后你或许还需要为 一份单独的账单

for an individual bill as a fee.

支付 10 美元作为手续费。

If you do that via a smartphone,

如果用智能手机完成上述步骤，

I believe that not only do you save a tremendous amount of time,

我相信你不仅可以节省大量时间，

because if you're outside the financial system,

因为你在金融系统之外——

managing and moving money is practically a part-time job

管理和移动资金 实际上相当于一份兼职工作——

to go and do that,

所以这样一来，

so not only do you save time and return time to individuals,

你不仅可以为个人节省时间，

but you can cut the cost of transactions

还可以省去 50% 到 75%的

by anywhere between 50 and 75 percent.

交易手续费。

And remember that $140 billion number that I gave you?

还记得我说过的 1400 亿美元吗？

And that's just in the US.

这只是在美国的数字。

Imagine if you could cut that in half

试想如果你可以省下一半，

and return that to the most vulnerable populations

返还给那些最需要经济支援的

that need it most.

弱势群体会如何。

So I think there's tremendous promise

所以我认为技术在

in the use of technology

帮助提供包容性，

to help provide both inclusion

无差别对待所有人，

and make sure there aren't digital haves and have-nots,

并最终走向财务健康这些方面

but also to start on this journey towards financial health.

拥有相当大的潜力。

CH: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize

科里：我相信大多数人 还没有意识到

that you don't need a bank account or even a credit card

开通一个 PayPal 账户，

to open a PayPal account,

你不需要银行账户， 甚至是信用卡。

which is super-interesting.

这是很有趣的事情。

I mean, do you see a time where traditional banks don't exist

你见过什么时候 传统银行在金融服务业

or at least play a much smaller role in the financial services industry?

不存在或是只发挥着 极小的作用吗？

DS: Well, I think the entire financial services industry

丹：整个金融服务业

is evolving right now,

都在不停进化。

and so I think banks will always play a role,

我认为在我能预见到的未来，

or as far into the future as I can see,

银行会一直发挥作用，

but it will evolve.

但它一定会进化。

I mean, think about basic credit cards.

想想最基本的信用卡。

Today, you think about a credit card,

今天，你想到信用卡，

and you think about it predominantly as a form factor,

你大概最先想到的 只是它的外形尺寸，

something that you pull out of your pocket.

是你从口袋里拿出来的东西。

Sometimes there's status associated with what you're pulling out of your pocket,

有时它使人联想到你的社会地位，

depending on the color of that credit card.

这取决于信用卡的颜色。

But really I think those form factors start to go away

但我真的认为那些外在形式 正在开始消失，

and become embedded in digital wallets.

并被嵌入到数字钱包之中。

So credit will always be an important element.

信用将始终是一个重要元素。

You know, most people in the world,

世界上大多数人

it isn't that their cash outlays exceed their cash intake.

不是现金支出超过收入，

It's just that they're not evenly distributed.

只是它们分布不均。

So there are times where your cash outflows exceed your cash intake,

所以有时你会入不敷出。

and there, you need some form of credit to make up that difference.

因此你需要通过某种形式的信贷 来弥补这种差异。

And so I think forms of credit will always be an important element.

信贷的形式始终是重要的要素。

But the way that you extend credit will change going forward,

但是，今后你扩大信贷的方式 将会不断改变，

the way that you think about scoring people

即根据人们是否能处理信用信息

in terms of can they handle credit.

来给他们评分的方式也会变。

You know, traditionally, in more developed countries,

从传统意义上来说， 在更多发达国家，

you use what's called FICO scores or bureau scores,

人们使用 FICO 信用评分 或政府当局的信用评分。

but those ignore so many of the financial transactions

但它们都忽略了 金融体系之外的大量人群

that people who are outside the financial system do,

进行的金融交易，

like paying rent or paying their bills on time.

像是准时支付租金或还清账单。

And with the data and information and machine learning around that --

有了相关的数据、信息 和机器学习技术——

and we need to be careful that there aren't biases

我们要小心保证

built into those algorithms --

这些算法不带有偏见——

we can start to do things that could never be done before.

我们就可以做出 以前根本无法做到的事。

I'll just give you one quick example.

举一个简单的例子。

We're one of the largest providers of working capital to small businesses

我们是世界上

最大的小企业 运营资金提供商之一，

in the world.

We're probably one of the top five in the United States.

也许在美国业内能排到前五。

So we've done over 14, 15 billion dollars

我们向小企业提供的运营资金

of lending of working capital to small businesses.

超过了 140 - 150 亿美元，

Seventy percent of that goes to the 30 percent of counties

其中 70% 的贷款流向了

where 10 or more banks have closed branches.

有 10 家或更多银行分行 关闭的县中的 30%。

And where do banks close branches?

银行在哪里关闭分行？

Banks close branches in neighborhoods

它们关闭的分行所在的街区，

where the median income is below the national average,

都是那些收入中位数 低于全国平均水平的。

which makes sense because for a branch to be profitable,

这说得通， 因为银行分行想要盈利，

they need a certain amount of deposits

他们需要一定量的存款

for that branch to actually be profitable.

才能保证分行盈利。

And so, in lower income neighborhoods,

因此，在那些低收入的街区

branches are starting to close.

分行开始陆续关闭。

So why are 70 percent of our loans in those lower income neighborhoods?

那么，为什么我们 70% 的贷款 流向了那些低收入的社区？

It's because we do machine learning.

这是因为我们用 机器学习进行了分析。

We don't even look at FICO scores or bureau scores.

我们甚至不看 FICO 信用评分 或政府当局信用评分。

We look at a number of different data elements.

我们看了许多不同数据因素。

And so we can lend into those lower income neighborhoods

于是便可以把资金借给 那些低收入社区，

where nobody else can,

而别人都做不到，

and when we do that,

而且当我们这么做时，

the average sale of a small business goes up by 22 percent.

小企业的平均销售额 上升了 22%。

And imagine the impact that has on communities and neighborhoods

想象一下由此给 社区、街道带来的影响，

where they can finally get the working capital

它们终于能够得到运营资金

to expand those small businesses.

来扩大小企业的规模。

And I think that's a perfect example

我认为这个例子完美的证明了

of the promise of what technology and financial services

技术和金融服务相结合

married together can do.

所发挥的巨大作用。

CH: I think it's so interesting.

科里：我认为这非常有趣。

I'm curious.

我很好奇，

The tech industry has been criticized for amassing power over society,

科技产业长期 因积累社会力量而受到批评——

not that the banking industry isn't criticized.

倒不是说银行业没有被批评——

But what do you say about people who might be worried about

你怎么看人们有可能 会担心科技公司

tech companies taking on even more influence and control

会对他们生活中正在发生的事情

over what's happening in their lives?

施加更大的影响力和控制力？

DS: Yeah.

丹：没错。

Well, I think what's so important for any company and tech companies

我认为对于任何公司， 包括科技公司，

is to respect the boundaries

就消费者对提供服务的 公司的期望而言，

in terms of what consumers expect from a company that serves them.

最重要的都是尊重界限。

I think the most important brand attribute that a company can have is trust,

我认为公司最重要的 品牌属性是信任。

and trust comes from the understanding

信任来自于

that a company respects your privacy

公司尊重个人隐私，

and will not sell your data or information,

不会贩卖你的数据和信息，

that it can perform transactions in a secure manner

以及对公司能 以安全的方式进行交易，

so that your transactions are protected.

让你的交易得到保障的理解。

And I think those are kind of foundational,

我认为这些都是基础的，

and I think any company needs to respect that.

任何公司都需要尊重这一点。

They need to assure that consumers

他们需要确保消费者

have the privacy that they desire

拥有他们渴望的隐私权

and the safety and security that is required

以及所必需的安全性和安全感，

to serve them the right way.

才能正确地服务客户。

CH: And obviously, you've gained a lot of trust with the US government.

科里：很显然，你们已经 取得了美国政府相当程度的信任。

Maybe we could talk a little bit about how you've been working with them

或许我们可以稍微谈谈 你们是如何与他们进行合作，

to distribute some money through the Paycheck Protection Program.

通过工资支票保护计划分配资金。

And I was curious,

我也想知道，

I've been reading about it, and it sounds like

我曾经了解过一些相关信息， 大概意思就是，

30 million-ish small businesses in the United States

美国约 3000 万家小企业

are able to get those funds,

有资格得到那些资金，

but only six million have received the loans.

但是只有 600 万企业收到了贷款。

What do you think's happened?

你对此怎么看？

DS: Yep.

丹：没错。

Well, I think initially, the government -- and I give them a lot of credit --

我想，在最初，政府—— 我觉得政府在这件事上做得不错——

they responded quite quickly

他们对 3 万亿美元的 经济刺激方案

with a 3 trillion dollar stimulus package.

做出了迅速的回应。

These are massive numbers that were happening

这些都是在极短的时间内

in very condensed time frames.

被决定的巨大数字。

We were working with various agencies,

就刺激资金的分配来说，

very closely with the Treasury Department,

我们在同许多不同的机构共事，

in terms of distribution of the stimulus.

与财政部关系非常密切。

And they were working literally night and day on this.

他们的确在 夜以继日地为此努力。

The Small Business Administration was working night and day.

小微企业管理部门 也在日夜工作着。

But these are volumes

这个规模

that have never been seen before running through these systems,

是这一运行体系下从未有过的，

and the first tranche of those loans

首批贷款的分配

was very difficult.

遇到了很多困难。

There were a lot of technical difficulties in getting those out to small businesses.

在分配资金给小企业时 遇到了许多技术难题。

And that first tranche was not enough,

首批贷款数额不足，

and it was quickly used,

而且很快就用光了。

and there are still a host of small businesses

同时仍然有大批小企业

that needed money.

需要钱。

The second tranche that came out

第二批贷款

is still actually in effect.

目前实际上仍然有效。

It has not been used up,

资金还有剩余，

and we are continuing to lend on that.

我们还在继续提供贷款。

We've been able to lend to some 50,000 small businesses.

我们已经能够贷款给 大约 5 万家小企业。

We've lent out about 1.7 billion dollars,

我们已经借出 17 亿美元，

and our loan size,

而我们的贷款规模——

which really I'm proud of,

也让我觉得非常自豪——

is about 31,000 dollars.

大约是 31000 美元。

The average that a bank does is between 100 and 125,000 dollars.

银行提供的额度平均在 100 到 12.5 万美元之间。

So we are lending to these true small businesses

所以我们在贷款给

属于经济主体的真正的小企业。

on Main Street,

and I'm proud that we've been able to go do that,

我也为我们已经 能够做到这一点而骄傲。

and I think we should give credit to the US government

我们应该把功劳归功于美国政府，

and governments around the world

还有世界上其他政府，

that are taking this quite seriously

那些认真对待此事，

and putting a tremendous amount, a percentage of their GDP,

投入相当于 1% GDP 的资金，

towards the rescue of small businesses

来拯救小微企业

and towards trying to take care of consumers

并且试图惠及

that find themselves in really difficult straits right now.

身处艰难境地的小企业的政府。

And we've been trying to,

我们也一直尝试着，

instead of people mailing out checks, which is ridiculous in today's world --

不再给人们邮寄支票这一在今天看来 已经有些可笑的行为——

people aren't living where they think they're going to be living,

人们很可能已经搬家了，

they're with their parents or with friends or in a different location,

或者和父母、朋友住在一起。 或是住在其它地点。

and mailing a check

如果给他们邮寄支票，

and then having to take a check and go somewhere,

然后他们在疫情期间不让外出时，

which you can't even go if you're sheltered in place,

又不得不去某个地方

to cash it,

兑现支票，

doing that electronically just makes a ton more sense --

而电子支付的方式则更符合常理——

and we've been working with the IRS and Treasury

我们已经在和美国税务局和财政部，

and other government agencies to distribute that electronically.

以及其他政府机构合作 来分配电子支票。

CH: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

科里：没错，这的确更合理。

It's a massive, massive project

这是一个对我们所有人来说

for all of us.

规模都相当庞大的项目。

Whitney is here with some questions from our community.

我想惠特妮带来了 一些观众的问题。

DS: Hello, Whitney.

丹：你好，惠特妮。

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Hello Dan. How are you?

惠特妮： 你好，丹，最近怎么样？

TED 社区的观众刚刚 提出了一些有趣的问题，

So the community has some interesting questions

涉及到了你之前谈到的 关于安全的话题。

following up on what you were talking about earlier about security.

我们有一个来自马克的问题：

We have a question from Marc --

and I apologize in advance if I mispronounce your name, Marc --

如果我念错了你的名字， 我很抱歉，马克。

马克·凡勒伯格问：

Marc Vanlerberghe:

"The move to digital cash could be one more step

“向数字现金的转型可能导致

towards creating the perfect surveillance state.

我们向被 ‘完美监控’ 更近了一步。

我们如何避免发生这种情况？”

How do we avoid this from happening?"

DS: Yeah, well, this is what I was talking about, Marc, before.

丹：好的，这正是 我之前提到的，马克。

I mean, I think this idea of trust

我认为信任这一概念

is incredibly important.

是极其重要的。

I think the only companies that will be successful --

我认为唯一会成功的公司——

and I think we hold a lot of this in our own hands as consumers, by the way;

顺带一提，我认为我们作为消费者 面对着大量这样的公司——

we need to be aware of data and information that we're giving

我们需要知晓 我们提供了哪些数据和信息，

and to what companies we're doing that with --

以及我们在把它们提供给哪家公司。

but I think the companies that will be successful

我认为最有可能成功的公司，

are those that have a high degree of trust,

都有着很高的信任度，

and trust happens by protecting your privacy

不仅体现在保护你的隐私，

but also very much assuring that your transactions in a digital world

也体现在保证你的数字交易

are safe and secure.

是安全且可靠的。

I mean, the idea of cybersecurity

我是说，网络安全的想法

has always been important,

自始至终都非常重要，

but is ever more important as we move from physical to digital,

尤其是在我们从实体到 数字化的转变过程中，

and that's where large data sets are important,

这也体现了大量数据的重要性。

because a consumer's identity is stolen every two seconds.

因为每两秒就有一个 消费者身份信息被盗。

Every two seconds, some consumer has their identity stolen.

每两秒，某个消费者的 个人身份信息就会被盗。

And so we have to be, for instance,

因此，我们需要确认

we have to be sure that even when you sign in

即使当你使用密码

with your credentials,

登录你的账号时，

they're actually real credentials.

它们是实际上真正的凭据。

We have to look at 30 to 100 different elements of that transaction

我们必须查看交易中的 30 到 100 个不同的要素，

to make sure it's really you

确保确实是你本人操作，

before we let that money out of your account.

然后才会让钱 从你的账户里被转出去。

And so there is a combination of making sure you have enough data

因此，这一系列的操作 既可以确保你有足够的数据

to protect somebody

来保护某个客户，

but also assure that your privacy is held sacrosanct,

也可以保证你的隐私权 是神圣不可侵犯的，

and I think that is a balancing act and one that needs to happen

我认为这是一个亟待执行的 平衡的做法，

in order for us to do this successfully.

让我们可以成功地保证账户安全。

WPR: Great, and actually sort of going from digital cash to digital currency,

惠特妮：太好了，实际上也是 从数字现金到数字货币的转变。

we have another question from Simone Ross in our community

下一个问题来自 西蒙妮·罗斯，

about the opportunity that exists for digital currency.

关于数字货币可能存在的机遇。

She mentioned that PayPal pulled out of Libra.

她提到 PayPal 退出了Libra （Facebook 旗下全球数字加密货币平台）。

What would it take for a truly inclusive digital currency to take hold here?

真正包容性的数字货币 需要如何站稳脚跟？

DS: Yeah.

丹：好的。

I think there is a tremendous amount of promise

我认为当我们想到数字货币时，

as we think about digital currencies.

前景是无限的。

Our pulling out of Libra

我们退出 Libra

had nothing to do with our firm conviction

和我们坚定的信念无关，

that blockchain and other forms of maybe stable coin currencies

我们坚信区块链和 其他形式的稳定货币

are extremely important

是极其重要的，

and can be very, very helpful,

并且可能非常非常有益，

especially in different parts of the world.

尤其是在世界不同地区。

As we think about stability in different parts of the world

当我们想到世界上 不同地区的金融稳定性，

where currencies can fluctuate up and down,

那些汇率上下波动的地区

to have a more stable currency where somebody can know,

能有更加稳定的货币， 而他们会知道，

if they have that,

如果他们拥有了这样的货币，

that it's going to be worth x amount,

它的价值将不可估量，

and that they can transact,

同时他们可以进行交易，

either with other individuals around the world

不论是和世界各地的其他个体，

or, importantly, at merchants around the world.

或者，更重要的， 和世界各地的商人。

And we are looking at all forms of digital currencies right now,

我们现在正在观察所有 不同形式的数字货币，

working hand in hand with a number of different governments,

与许多不同的政府携手合作，

and I think we should all think about how technology is going to evolve

我认为我们应该考虑 科技将会如何进化升级；

and how currencies will evolve as a result of that.

作为科技进步的结果， 货币又会如何演变。

And I think this crisis has really opened the eyes

我认为这场危机切实地拓宽了

of many governments around the world

世界上许多政府的视野，

as to the need for different tool sets

就像他们需要使用各种工具集

to create stimulus

来刺激经济，

and to efficiently and quickly and effectively distribute funds

并迅速有效地向其公民

to their citizens.

分配资金。

WPR: Great. Well, I'll be back shortly with more questions,

惠特妮：说得太好了。 我待会儿会带着更多问题回来。

and I'd just love to remind the community that you can ask questions

我想要提醒各位观众， 你们可以在“提问”特色版块

on the "Ask question" feature.

提出问题。

Be sure to use the pull-down tab to select Episode 2,

请务必使用下拉选项卡 选择第二期对话，

so those questions come.

然后我们就能看到你的问题了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

DS: Thanks, Whitney.

丹：谢谢，惠特妮。

CH: Thanks, Whitney.

科里：谢谢，惠特妮。

Dan, I want to go back to something we touched on in the beginning

丹，我想回到我们开始时聊到的

about financial wellness.

关于财务健康的问题。

PayPal has done something unique

PayPal 在计算要 给大家付多少钱

in terms of calculating how much to pay people

以及应该在福利上的支出方面，

and how much you should spend on benefits.

做出了独一无二的举动。

Traditionally, wages are set by the market,

传统意义上，工资是由市场设定的，

but you've found that paying as much or even more than other companies

但你们已经发现，支付 与其他公司一样多，或者更多的薪水

wasn't always enough.

有时还不够。

Can you tell us about that moment?

能跟我们谈谈这个话题吗？

DS: Yeah.

丹：好的。

So I said, kind of, in our opening, in one of my opening statements,

我在对话刚开始的时候提到了，

that two-thirds of Americans struggle to make ends meet

三分之二的美国人

在月末会面临入不敷出的窘境。

at the end of the month.

They are financially stressed,

他们面临的经济压力

and it kind of wreaks havoc in their life.

严重破坏了他们的生活。

I did a study to look at PayPal employees.

我们曾经做过 一项针对 PayPal 员工的

We did a research study,

调查研究，

and I did it because I thought I was going to get back this great information

我以为我会得到这方面的重要信息，

that I was going to talk about at an employee meeting

然后在员工会议上谈论

about how well we pay,

我们的工资水平多么好，

because we pay, to your point,

因为我们提供的薪资

at or above market

在世界范围内

in every single location around the world.

都是处于或超出市场水平。

And what I found is, unfortunately, like the rest of the world,

然而遗憾的是，我发现， 就像世界其他地方一样，

even though we paid at market or above market,

尽管我们按照或者 超出市场价支付薪水，

60 percent of our operations personnel,

我们 60% 的运营人员、

our entry-level employees, our hourly workers,

基层员工、小时工，

face the same thing.

面对的依然是同样的情况，

They struggle to make ends meet.

月底的财务状况都会捉襟见肘。

And that was simply unacceptable for me.

这对我来说简直是无法接受的。

I think the world is changing

我认为就企业承担的责任，

in terms of the responsibility of corporations,

尤其是首席执行官们的责任来说，

the responsibility of CEOs.

世界一直在不断改变，

We have a lot of different stakeholders that we try to satisfy,

我们有很多不同的 需要尽力满足的利益相关者，

from regulators to shareholders to customers to employees.

从监管机构到股东、客户、员工。

But I think the number one responsibility that we have

但我认为我们的首要责任

is the health -- financial health -- of our employees,

是健康——员工的财务健康，

because nothing could be more important to a company

因为对于一个公司，没有什么是比

than to have financially secure, passionate employees working for you,

拥有有财务保障， 干劲十足的员工更重要的了。

because nobody is going to serve customers

因为没有人比 拥有归属感，财务有保障，

better than employees who feel a part of something

并且愿意作为公司一份子的员工们

and feel financially secure and glad to be a part of that company.

能更好的为服务客户了。

And so then the real question becomes: How do you measure that?

那么，真正的问题就变成了： 你如何衡量员工财务健康，

Because a lot of people think about living wages or a minimum wage.

因为很多人考虑的是 生活工资或最低工资。

And we thought that was insufficient,

我们觉得那还不够，

and we came up with a measurement we called "net disposable income,"

于是我们想出了一个衡量标准， 称之为“净可支配收入”。

which is, basically:

大概的意思就是，

After you pay taxes and your basically essential living expenses,

除去纳税和必需的 基本生活开支后，

how much money do you have left over for discretionary things

还剩下多少钱可以自由支配

or to save?

或是储蓄？

And here's the really unfortunate thing -- and I'm not proud of this,

非常令人遗憾的是—— 而我也丝毫不为之自豪，

but remember, we were paying at market or above,

但是记住，我们支付的薪水标准 是等于或者高于市场水平的，

so I thought the market would take care of this, right, by doing that --

所以我认为市场会 解决好这个问题——

we found that for that population,

我们发现对于这一群体，

they had four to six percent NDI, net disposable income,

在除开纳税和基本生活开支后，

after paying taxes and essential living expenses.

他们还有 4%~6% 的 净可支配收入。

That is not enough.

这是不够的，

You are going to struggle to make ends meet.

到了月底还是会入不敷出。

And by the way, NDI changes location to location to location

另外，全世界的净可支配收入 都是因地而异的，

around the globe, right?

对吧？

There's a different NDI in Manila, a different NDI in Omaha, Nebraska,

马尼拉和内布拉斯加州奥马哈市 各自有不同的净可支配收入，

than there is in New York City, etc.

更不用说纽约市了。

And so we basically said to ourselves,

于是我们对自己说，

we need to take NDI to 20 percent.

我们需要把净可支配收入 占比提高到 20%。

Because at 20 percent --

因为 20% 的占比

and that's a huge shift, from four to six to 20 percent --

是个巨大的转变， 从 4% 到 6%，增加到 20%。

but at 20 percent, you actually have the ability to save

但是只有达到 20%， 你才真正有储蓄的能力，

and to put money away and to take care of discretionary expenses.

把钱存起来，处理 其它要自由支配的花销。

And so we did a pretty massive reorientation

因此，我们对我们的薪酬体系

of our compensation systems.

做了很大的调整。

We lowered the cost of benefits by 58 percent,

我们降低了 58% 的福利开销，

because benefits are like a regressive tax,

因为福利就像累退税一样，

you pay the same amount no matter what your salary is.

不论你的薪资水平如何， 你花费的钱是同样的。

And so we had a lot of employees who weren't taking health care benefits,

因此，我们有很多员工 没有享受医疗保健福利。

because it cost too much to be able to do that.

因为这样做的成本太高了。

So we lowered it by 58 percent.

所以我们将这方面的福利 减少了 58%。

We made every single employee of PayPal a shareholder

我们让每位员工 都成为了公司的股东，

and an owner of the business,

业务上的老板。

and we gave them pretty big grants

我们给了他们相当多的股票份额，

so that they could be a part of the success of PayPal going forward.

这样他们就可以成为 帮助 PayPal 未来成功的一部分。

We raised salaries where we needed to go and do that.

我们在需要的地方提高了薪水 ，

And then we wrapped all of that into a financial education program,

然后把这一切都融入进 一个金融教育计划，

because people had never gotten equity before,

因为之前人们从来没有 获得过股权。

they were trying to think through,

他们会开始思考，

"How do I save now that I've got incremental dollars to go and do that?"

“既然我已经有更多资金， 我该怎么存钱呢？”

And that cost us quite a bit of money to go and do that,

这花了我们相当多的钱，

but I really feel,

但是我真切的感受到，

just like how we spend a lot of money to take care of customers,

就好像我们投入大量资金 去迎合客户需求，

as you mentioned up front, in COVID-19,

正如你前面提到的， 在新冠肺炎疫情中，

that companies need to stand for more than just making money,

公司要承担更多的责任， 而绝非只是赚钱，

for more than just maximizing our profits next quarter.

不仅仅是着眼于如何最大化 我们下个季度的利润。

I firmly, firmly believe

我坚信

that the costs associated with taking care of our employees,

投资于关心员工，

taking care of our customers,

关心客户的成本，

will benefit us in the long run

从长远来看，我们会得到

multiplefold over the costs associated with doing that.

相当于几倍成本的回报。

And we're already beginning to see some of the impact of that.

我们已经开始看到这种影响。

And so, I think every CEO, every company,

因此，我认为每个 CEO， 每家公司，

needs to really now start to think about,

需要真的开始思考一下，

especially maybe as a result of this crisis,

特别是以它作为 这场危机带来的结果，

but as I mentioned, we had a crisis before this,

但是正如我提到的， 我们在这之前就有一场危机，

how do we put our employees first, take care of them?

我们如何把员工放在第一位， 以他们为中心？

Because if you do that, you'll take care of customers,

因为如果你这么做了， 你也会顾及到客户。

and if you take care of customers,

如果你顾及了客户，

you'll take of shareholders, inevitably.

你也就不可避免的顾及了股东。

And so this has been a huge part of it

这会是整个计划的 一大组成部分，

about for the last year or so.

大概会持续一年。

CH: It's so interesting,

科里：这真的很有趣，

and it brings up so many questions, I think,

我相信很多人都对 这个想法感到好奇，

for me and probably our community as well.

不论是我个人， 还是整个 TED 社区。

I mean, PayPal is a hugely profitable tech business,

我是说，PayPal 是 一家利润丰厚的科技公司，

huge free cash flow and big margins.

有巨大的自由现金流 和巨大的利润。

Do you think this model is something that every company can do,

您认为这种模式 是所有公司都可以借鉴的吗？

whether it's a tech company, a manufacture, a meatpacking business?

无论是科技公司、制造公司， 还是一家肉类包装公司？

I mean, is this what everyone should be focused on?

我是说，每个人 都应该专注于此吗？

DS: Well, I think that -- and I don't want to moralize

丹：我不想上升到道德层面，

or tell other companies what they should do --

或是告诉其他公司 他们应该怎么做，

but to me, I think everyone should understand

但是于我而言， 我认为每个人都应该理解

the financial health of their employees.

他们员工的财务健康。

That's a baseline thing to go do.

那是最基本的要求。

What you do post-that

之后的计划

is up to maybe your financial strength as a company

就取决于公司的财务实力，

or where you put your order of priorities.

或是优先计划。

But what I've found is,

但是我发现，

I thought the market could tell you that,

我认为市场会告诉你该怎么做，

and this is why I say, in many ways --

这也是为什么我说在许多方面，

you know, I'm a big believer in capitalism.

我坚定地相信资本主义。

I think it's, in many ways,

在很多方面，

the best economic system that I know of.

资本主义都是我知道的 最好的经济体系。

But, like everything, it needs an upgrade.

但是，就像所有事物一样， 它也需要升级。

It needs tuning,

也需要调整优化，

and at least for these vulnerable populations,

至少对于这类弱势群体来说，

just because you pay at market

仅因为你按照市场标准 来支付薪水，

doesn't mean that they have financial health or financial wellness.

并不意味着他们拥有财务健康。

And I think everyone should know

我认为每个人都应该知道，

whether or not their employees have the wherewithal to be able to save

他们的员工是否有 能够用来储蓄的财力

to withstand financial shocks,

去面对金融震荡，

and then really understand, like, what can you do about it?

并且切实了解 你能够对此做些什么？

I think this NDI measure

我认为净可支配收入衡量法

is a really interesting one.

非常有意思。

It takes some time to go do it,

它需要时间去执行，

because you have to be quite thorough

因为你必须非常深入，

and you have to really understand living expenses by location

你需要详细的了解 当地的生活成本

and what tax jurisdictions there are.

以及当地的税务管辖区。

But you need to create an NDI

你要制定一个

适应当地情况的 净可支配收入衡量等级，

that's to a certain level

where people aren't struggling to make ends meet.

在这个标准下，人们不必 只为了维持生计而辛苦努力。

Because if people are struggling to make ends meet,

因为如果人们的工作收入 很难维持生计，

they are not as productive at work.

那么他们在工作上 也不会太有效率，

They're worried about, like, what am I going to do with my kids?

他们会担心，例如， 我该拿我的孩子们怎么办？

My kid just got sick. I don't have health insurance.

我的孩子病了， 我却没有医疗保险。

I think there's a spiral that occurs.

我认为反转正在发生，

You think you're actually saving money

你认为你是在削减薪水

by paying less,

来省钱，

but the reality is,

但事实却是，

at least in my belief system,

至少在我的信仰体系中，

you take care of your employees,

你关心你的员工，

and other things naturally flow from that.

其他的自然而然 便会水到渠成。

They are more productive.

员工的工作会更高效，

They love being a part of that company.

更热衷于做公司的一份子，

They take care of customers better.

也更加在意客户。

And all of those things

所有这一切

inevitably accrue to the benefit of a company

都可以水到渠成的 累计成为公司的利益，

in terms of how it's trying to serve its ultimate end market.

并在如何试图服务 最终端市场方面得到体现。

But it starts with your employees.

但是这开始于你的员工。

CH: So obviously you believe in this "capitalism needs an upgrade,"

科里：那么很明显，你相信 “资本主义需要升级”的说法，

and I think NDI is something so many companies should adopt.

我认为所有公司 都应该采用“净可支配收入”的理念。

But do you think this happens through benevolent corporate activity?

但是，你认为这一切 要通过慈善企业活动进行吗？

I'm channeling my inner Bernie Bro here,

这也是我自己的心声，

but I think a lot of people would be skeptical

但我认为很多人也会怀疑，

that we should trust companies to do better at this point.

是否应该相信公司 在这个时间点会做得更好。

Should the government step in to raise minimum wages,

政府应该介入 并提高最低薪资标准吗？

do other things to protect workers in a more structured way?

应该实施其他举措， 以更结构化的方式保护劳动者吗？

DS: Look, I think the government clearly has a role to play,

丹：我认为政府显然 需要发挥它的作用，

and I think the private and public sectors

我认为私营和公共部门

need to work closer together

需要紧密的合作，

to address so many of the issues

解决诸多我们遇到的

that we face in our societies across the world,

世界各地的社会问题。

whether that be income inequality,

不论是收入不平等、

environmental issues,

环境问题、

health,

健康问题、

protections, that kind of thing,

还是安全保障

privacy.

和隐私这一类的问题。

But the way that I think about this is,

但我是这样想的，

it's very difficult for governments to regulate around this,

对于政府来说， 围绕这些进行管理很难，

because there are so many different ways of thinking about it.

因为思考它的方式有很多。

If I were another CEO,

如果我是其他 CEO，

and this is like,

这就像，

it's actually in your best interest

这样做实际上

to go and do this

符合你的最大利益，

because it's a competitive advantage.

因为这是一种竞争优势，

Like, we attract, I think,

像是，我认为我们吸引了

some of the best talent in the world

世界上最好的人才

to PayPal,

为 PayPal 工作。

because we have a mission that people believe in,

因为我们有提升信任度的使命，

that we actually are trying to make some sort of positive difference.

我们确实在尝试做出积极的改变。

I'm not saying we're the be-all and end-all,

我不是说我们这样是最棒的，

but I don't think people should shirk their responsibilities

但是我认为人们不应该推卸责任，

of at least making a small difference

至少要在未来

going forward.

有所改进。

If enough companies did that, if enough governments did that,

如果足够的公司做到这一点， 如果足够的政府做到这一点，

it would make a real difference

世界将会发生

in the world.

真正的改变。

And then the second thing is,

第二件事是，

you have to have values that support that.

你需要有支撑它的社会价值观，

And those values are incredibly important.

这种价值观是最为重要的。

Those values should be all about inclusion.

它应该关于社会包容性，

They should be about having a diverse workforce.

它应该关于多元化的员工团队，

They should be about financial wellness.

它应该关于财务健康。

And when you do that,

并且你这么做时，

and you attract the very best talent,

你会吸引最好的人才，

then by definition,

定义上来说，

I think the single biggest competitive advantage for any company

我认为对于任何公司来说， 最大的竞争优势

is their workforce.

都是他们的员工。

Strategies are great.

发展策略很不错，

A whole number of things are great.

其他许多计划也很令人满意。

You have a great workforce

你有最好的劳动力，

that's passionate about what they're doing

他们面对自己的工作干劲十足，

and is financially secure,

而且在财务方面没有顾虑，

and they will do amazing things.

这样他们就将会 成就令人惊叹的事业。

And I think it's that kind of competitive advantage

我认为这些都是 能够鞭策公司的

that will spur companies.

巨大竞争优势。

So there needs to be

所以我们需要

a set of CEOs and companies

朝着这个方向前进的

that start to move in this direction,

CEO 和公司，

and I believe you're beginning to see more do this.

我相信你们会 看到更多人加入进来。

And once that happens,

这种局面一旦出现，

it starts to tip everything,

它就会起到锦上添花的作用。

and I think more and more need to do it

我认为越来越多的人 需要采取类似的策略

to maintain their competitive positioning.

来保持他们的竞争地位。

And that may seem like a self-serving way why people are doing it,

或许看起来， 人们这么做为的是一己私利，

but honestly,

但实话实说，

I don't care whether they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart

我不在乎他们这么做 是发自内心的善，

or they're doing it because it's competitively a disadvantage

还是因为他们不这样做

if they don't.

就无法占据竞争优势。

Creating financial health for our employees is the goal,

为我们的员工创造 财务健康就是目标，

and we've got to get that done.

我们必须完成。

CH: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you think of this as a win-win,

科里：我的意思是，这听起来 你认为这是双赢局面，

but it also sounds like you're willing to maybe think about your employees first

同时它也听起来像是 你愿意首先考虑自己员工，

and sell it to your shareholders later.

之后才考虑你的股东。

Whitney is -- oh sorry, go ahead.

惠特妮 —— 抱歉，你继续。

DS: No, no, no -- I was just going to say,

丹：不不不，我正打算说，

I actually do believe that,

我确实相信，

我确实认为， “多方利益相关者资本主义”的想法

and I think the idea of a multistakeholder capitalism,

that is a time for today,

属于当前的形势 是个非常好的时机，

and we cannot just think

我们不能只是认为

that we have one stakeholder that we need to satisfy.

需要我们满足的只是一个股东。

We live in our communities, we live in this world.

我们居住在自己的社区里， 我们住在这个世界上，

To have people struggling day in and day out

让人们终日疲于维持生计

is not good for any company, and ...

对任何公司都不是好事，而且…

We can only do x amount,

我们只能做到 一个特定的数额，

but we can actually create financial health for our employees,

但是我们确实能为员工 创造财务健康，

and we should.

而且我们也应该这么做。

WPR: Great. So we have so many questions coming in from the community.

惠特妮：没错，我们还有 很多来自观众的问题。

One here is from Lara Pearson,

这个来自拉拉·皮尔森，

basically about whether PayPal would consider become a B Corporation.

大概意思是，PayPal 会考虑成为共益企业吗？

"Are you familiar with the B Corp movement,

“你了解共益企业运动吗？，

对环境和社会负责， 基于多重底线来获取利润。

environmentally and socially responsible, multiple-bottom-line for profits?

Presuming so, has PayPal considered or would it consider

假设是这样，PayPal 是否考虑过

becoming a certified B Corporation?"

或未来会成为认证共益企业吗？”

DS: Yep. I'm familiar with B Corp.

丹：嗯，我了解共益企业，

We have no intention to move

我们没有打算

to becoming a B Corporation.

成为一家共益企业。

I think the values and what we are trying to do

我认为它的价值观和我们正在做的

are very aligned with assuring a multistakeholder point of view,

与确保多方利益相关者的观点 非常一致。

but what I really want

但是我真正希望的，

is for this to be a movement

是让这一理念转变为

across major corporations across the world.

一场世界范围内， 覆盖各大公司的运动。

And you're not going to have major corporations around the world

而不是让这些大公司

moving into B Corp.

成为共益企业。

There's a lot of other side issues involved

相比于一个上市公司来说，

成为一家共益企业

with being a B Corporation

as opposed to just a publicly listed company,

还要面临很多衍生问题，

and so that's going to be a long way before that happens.

这就意味着在它出现之前 还有很长的路要走。

And so what I'm really trying to do is

我真的想要尝试

encourage and demonstrate

鼓励和示范

that being multistakeholder,

成为多方利益相关者，

that putting employees first,

把员工放在第一位，

creates competitive advantage.

可以创造竞争优势，

And I think I'm not the only CEO who's feeling that, by the way.

我认为我不是 唯一这样认为的 CEO。

I think people like Satya Nadella from Microsoft are doing a great job,

我认为像微软的萨蒂亚·纳德拉， Salesforce 的马克·贝尼奥夫，

Marc Benioff from Salesforce.

他们都做得很棒。

I could go through quite a list of names.

我可以列出一份相当长的名单，

But the list is not long enough yet,

但这份名单还不够长，

but I think there's some quite important names

全世界类似这样出色的领导者

and individuals around the world

还有很多。

who are now talking about multistakeholder capitalism,

在讨论“多方利益相关者资本主义”，

and I think that's an important element as we think about our economies

我认为这是 当我们在讨论我们的经济

and way of life looking forward.

以及未来的生活方式时， 非常重要的一部分。

WPR: And there was so much interest also in your net disposable income program

惠特妮: 大家对你的 净可支配收入计划也很有兴趣，

and a lot of questions around that,

同时也有很多问题，

and one which I think is along these same lines from Juan Enriquez

其中一个提问 来自胡安·恩里克斯。

asking about a rational way to address extreme income disparities.

他问是否有理性的方式 来应对极端的收入悬殊问题。

And perhaps you could expand beyond this program,

或许你可以跳脱这个计划，

just sort of ways that we might think about this

仅仅谈一些我们能想到的，

in a smarter way moving forward.

关于未来更为便捷的方式。

DS: Yeah.

丹：好。

Well, there's no easy solution, or it would have been done.

从来就不存在容易的解决方法， 否则问题早已经被解决了。

So I think there are a couple things that I think about

我认为那些我能想到的

that may not fully address extreme income disparities.

也许不能完全解决极端的 收入差距问题，

Again, I try to think pragmatically about these things,

我依然试图务实地 思考这些问题，

and, like, what can we really do to start to address this?

例如，我们究竟能采取什么措施 来开始解决收入悬殊问题。

And again, I think about,

我又想到，

if we could take one step and then another step,

如果我们能一步接着一步前进，

then you're starting your journey,

我们就踏上了正确的道路，

and without getting overwhelmed by how far away the end state is.

并且不会因为觉得 终点遥不可及而不知所措。

So one, I think companies need to take care of their employees,

所以第一，我认为 公司应该关心自己的员工，

and I think that will immediately help to address

那将会帮助我们很快解决

some of these income disparities.

一部分收入差距问题。

Number two, I do think that,

第二，我确实认为，

ironically, if you have less money,

讽刺的是，你拥有的钱越少，

it costs you more to manage and move it,

管理它的难度反而越大。

which, think about that:

思考一下，

the less money you have, if you're outside the financial system,

你拥有的钱越少， 如果你在金融体系之外

the more you spend to manage and move your money.

你在管理和 转移财富方面的成本就越高。

And I think that technology

我认为科技

is at least a foundational way for us to think about

至少是一个让我们思考

how do we cut the basic costs of managing and moving money

如何把管理和转移财富的 初级成本降低 50% 到 70%的

by 50 to 70 percent,

一种基本途径，

like [check-cashing],

就像支票取现、

sending remittances,

汇款，

which are such a huge, important part of the world's economy.

都是世界经济中 庞大且重要的组成部分。

You know, you do it a traditional way,

传统上，

you go into a store

你走进一家商店，

and send the remittance to another store and somebody goes and picks it up.

汇款给另一家商店， 然后某人将它取走。

First of all, incredibly time-consuming,

首先，这是非常耗时的，

and it can cost between eight and 12 percent

也会消耗掉你汇款数额的

of that remittance amount that you're sending.

8% 到12% 。

So if you're sending a hundred dollars,

所以如果你汇出去 100 美元，

the recipient who so desperately needs it

迫切需要这笔钱的收款人

is getting 88 to 90 dollars.

得到的是 88 到 90 美元。

If you do that electronically, digital wallet to digital wallet,

如果通过电子方式汇款

that can be like three percent,

只会消耗 3%。

so you can get 97 dollars from that.

你就可以得到 97 美元。

And so I think there are ways of addressing the costs.

所以我认为 有很多方法解决成本问题，

As I mentioned,

正如我提到的，

there is so much money spent on unnecessary fees

太多的钱被耗费在不必要的费用

and high interest rates,

和过高的利息上。

and if we can drop that by 20 percent, 30 percent,

如果我们可以 把它降低 20%，30%，

the amount of money we can return to vulnerable populations is quite large

我们能返还给那些 弱势群体的将会是一大笔钱，

and will start to make a difference.

同时我们也能开始有所作为。

WPR: That's great.

惠特妮：太好了。

We have a ton of questions from the audience,

我们还有很多 来自观众的提问，

just one more before we turn things back over to Corey

在我们把话题交回科里， 让她提出最后的问题前，

with her final questions.

再来看看最后一个问题。

This one is from Anna Tunkel,

这一个是来自安娜·唐克尔的，

which is just, I think, as we are rounding to the end of the interview here,

非常适合结束今天的对话。

"What are you most optimistic about,

“最让你感到乐观的是什么？

and what do you see as the biggest opportunities

另外，你认为在疫情过后，

for 'Building Back Better' after COVID?"

‘更好的重建’所面临的 最大的机会是什么?"

DS: Well, I mean,

丹：我想说，

one thing I'm actually optimistic about --

让我感到比较乐观的是，

and I've always been a believer in the human spirit

我一直相信人类的精神，

and the power of an individual to make a difference.

能够产生深远影响的个人力量。

I know that sounds very cliché, but I truly believe it,

我知道这听起来很像陈词滥调， 但我真的相信它。

and I think every one of us can make a difference.

我想我们每一个人 都可以有所作为。

But here's what I'm seeing.

而我正在看到的是，

I'm beginning to see that at a much larger scale

我开始看到我前所未见的

than I've ever seen before.

一个更大规模的平台。

You know, we have different platforms,

我们有很多不同的平台，

either the PayPal platform or the Venmo platform,

PayPal 平台和 Venmo 平台。

Venmo here in the US, PayPal across the world.

Venmo 的使用范围在美国国内， PayPal 在世界范围内都可以使用。

The amount of giving that's happening through those platforms,

通过这些平台流动的资金，

whether it be to local businesses,

不论是给了本地企业、

to artists, to musicians,

艺术家、音乐家、

to bartenders,

调酒师，

to places of worship, to schools,

还是礼拜场所、学校、

to NGOs, to charities

非政府组织、慈善机构，

has exploded on the platform, exploded.

都在 PayPal 平台上呈现了 爆发式的快速增长。

We have helped to raise on the PayPal platform

新冠疫情发生后，

since COVID-19 struck

我们通过 PayPal 平台已经为

2.8 billion dollars for NGOs and charities --

非政府组织和慈善机构 募集了28 亿美元——

2.8 billion.

28 亿。

That's incredible,

多么惊人的数字。

the amount of generosity that is pouring out

围绕这一危机的

来自国际社会的支持 非常令人不可思议，

from the global community around this.

And we're just seeing people randomly pay it forward.

而且据我们的观察，这是 通过人们零星的支付实现的。

Somebody gives 20 dollars to a bartender,

有人给了酒保 20 美元，

and that bartender takes 10 dollars of that

那个调酒师留了 10 美元，

and gives it to somebody else.

把剩下的 10 美元又给了其他人。

And we're watching that over our platform,

而我们看着这个过程 发生在平台上，

and that gives me a sense of optimism.

让我感到乐观。

I also feel like this period of time

我也感到这段时间，

has exposed a number of things that were happening

暴露了很多正在发生的，

but were invisible,

但我们不曾看到的事。

and I think when things become visible,

我认为当事情变得清晰可见时，

that's when you can start to address them,

那就是时候可以开始解决它们了，

and I think there's a lot of attention

而且我认为有大量的注意力

on some issues that should have had attention before,

被转移到了这些 早应该被关注的问题，

but vulnerable populations don't have as loud a voice as others,

因为弱势人群的声音 远不如其他人容易被听到，

and now that voice is being heard, because you can't ignore it.

而我们现在听到了， 因为你根本无法忽视它。

And hopefully, that will create progress

但愿，那会让我们的工作有所进步，

against some of these structural inequalities

去对抗存在了很长时间的

that have been there for a long time.

结构化的不平等问题。

WPR: That's wonderful.

惠特妮：说得太好了，

And there's so much interest online.

线上观众的反响也非常积极。

You have some other questions to ask as well.

我们还有其他的问题。

科里：还有最后一个 来自观众的问题，

CH: So I think we have one more from our community

from Jacqueline Ashby.

来自杰奎琳·阿什比。

Anna sort of stole my last question,

其实安娜刚好问了 我想问的最后一个问题，

which was to restore our faith in humanity.

关于重建我们对人性的信念。

But, there's so much interest coming in about NDI.

但是大家普遍对 “净可支配收入”非常感兴趣。

Is there a way for people to learn more,

有没有什么方式 可以让大家更多的了解

for you to share your study and your methodology?

你的研究和方法论？

DS: Happy to do so.

丹：我很乐意这么做，

There is nothing proprietary about it.

这并不是什么不能公开的内容。

We would love for this to be --

我们很高兴这是——

look, and this may not be the be-all and end-all measurement.

这也许不是最好的解决方案，

It's the best one we could come up with,

但它是目前我们 能想出来的最佳方案。

but if working within the community,

如果在社群范围内工作，

we can evolve it and think about maybe things that it missed

我们可以不断改进， 考虑那些被忽略，

or maybe things that could be done better,

或者可以被更好的解决的问题。

that would be fantastic.

那就再好不过了。

I don't know the best way of doing that.

我不知道最优的策略是什么，

I'll leave that to Corey and Whitney to help me think that through,

我会让科里和惠特妮帮我想一下。

but of course we'd be willing to share it.

当然我们也很愿意分享想法，

There is nothing about that that I don't want to share.

没有什么是我不想分享的。

CH: Sounds like a good TED Talk.

科里：听起来可以是个 不错的 TED 演讲话题。

Thank you so much, Dan. This has been a super-interesting conversation.

非常感谢，丹。 这是一次非常有趣的对话。

I think we could talk for another hour,

我们甚至可以再聊一个小时，

but thank you so much for being here.

再次感谢你能参与。

DS: Thank you, Corey. Thank you, Whitney. Thank you, everybody.

丹：也谢谢你，科里， 谢谢，惠特妮。感谢大家。

惠特妮：谢谢，丹，谢谢你。

WPR: Thank you, Dan. Thank you.