What COVID-19 means for the future of commerce, capitalism and cash | Dan Schulman

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Shengmin Huang

Corey Hajim: Today, our guest is Dan Schulman, CEO of PayPal.

柯莉哈錦：今天，我們的來賓 是 PayPal 的執行長丹舒爾曼。

When most of us think of PayPal, we think of buying something online

大部分人聽到 PayPal 時 都會想到線上購物，

or paying a friend back for a drink using Venmo.

或用 Venmo 把酒錢還給朋友。

But PayPal has also become a major financial services player,

但 PayPal 也已經成為
 金融服務業中重要的一員，

often acting as an alternative to a traditional bank.

通常扮演著替代傳統銀行的角色。

During this pandemic,

在這次疫情期間，

PayPal has supported small businesses around the world by providing loans,

PayPal 以提供貸款、減免費用

以及增加現金回饋的方式 來支持世界各地的小型企業。

waiving fees

and increasing cash back programs.

It has also worked with the US government

PayPal 也與美國政府合作，

on its Paycheck Protection Program,

策劃其薪資保護計畫，

as well as distributing stimulus checks.

以及分發振興支票。

It has enabled an outpouring of generosity online as well.

PayPal 也被大量利用 在線上慷慨解囊。

The trend towards digital payments,

數位支付，

or what we might now want to think of as "contactless payments,"

現在可能常被稱為「無接觸支付」，

has massively accelerated,

有急速發展的趨勢。

and it's changing forever how we think about commerce.

並永遠改變了我們對商業貿易的看法。

So I'm really excited to have Dan here with us.

所以我好高興丹能夠 來參與我們的談話。

Thank you so much, Dan.

非常謝謝你，丹。

Dan Schulman: Thanks for having me, Corey. Pleasure to be here with you.

丹舒爾曼：謝謝邀請我， 柯莉，能來這裡是我的榮幸。

CH: Glad to see you.

柯：很高興見到你。

So let's dive right in.

我們就開始吧。

Within a few months of this pandemic's arrival,

在疫情開始的幾個月內，

more than 30 million people have filed for unemployment

超過三千萬人登記失業，

in the United States alone.

這還只是美國的數據。

These are certainly unusual circumstances,

現在無疑是情況特殊，

but it seems clear we were running very close to the edge,

但我們顯然已經在危機的邊緣，

and now so many businesses and their employees

許多企業及其員工

are facing huge financial challenges.

正在面臨龐大的財務困境。

How worried are you?

你有多擔心？

DS: Well, I think the crisis has exposed three things.

丹：我認為這場危機揭露出三件事。

Obviously, it's a health crisis

很顯然，對許多人而言，

for so many people.

這是場健康危機。

Second thing is, that health crisis has ricocheted,

第二，這場健康危機的趨勢急遽上升，

and the world is now in an economic crisis.

世界因此陷入了經濟危機。

And the third crisis that we don't talk so much about

第三種危機我們很少提及，

but I think is impacting the way

但我認為它會衝擊

that we're going to live our lives going forward

我們未來的生活方式，

is: this is a psychological crisis as well.

那就是心理危機。

People are reexamining their place in the world,

大家在重新審視自己在世界上的地位、

what's happening in the world,

世界上正在發生什麼事、

how they're going to live their lives,

他們要如何生活，

both in the pandemic and postpandemic.

無論是在疫情期間或疫情結束後。

And so I think this is something that each of those phases

所以我認為面對這件事

我們需要步步為營。

will need to be dealt with.

But you said this,

但我完全同意你剛才說的：

and I completely agree with you:

there was an economic crisis happening

疫情所揭露的經濟危機

well before the pandemic exposed this.

在疫情發生之前存在已久。

It's kind of like the water level came down

這有點像是水位下降之後

and exposed what was already there.

才看到本來就在水底的東西。

You had, for instance, in the US,

比如，在美國，

185 million adults in the US

有一億八千五百萬名成年人

struggling to make ends meet at the end of the month.

都要在月底掙扎，無法收支平衡。

You have over 70 million adults that are really outside of the financial system,

有超過七千萬名

不在金融體系內的成年人

spending over 140 billion dollars on high interest rates,

將超過一千四百億美金

花費在高利率及不必要的手續費上。

unnecessary fees

and struggling as well.

他們也過得很辛苦。

And so I think what this has really done --

因為我們無法忽視 20～25% 的失業率，

because you can't ignore 20, 25 percent unemployment rates --

所以我認為，疫情的作用

it's exposed this crisis

就是將危機暴露出來，

and forced a lot of people into, maybe, actions that they might not have taken

強迫許多在危機未顯露時無動於衷的人

不得不採取行動。

without this crisis happening.

CH: Yeah, I think that's right.

柯：是的，沒錯。 有好多挑戰，也有好多機會，

There are so many challenges and so many opportunities,

and I think you've spoken of this opportunity

我想你已經談到了

這是數位交易協助大家的機會，

of digital transactions being helpful to people,

and obviously the trend, as you've said,

而且如你所言，
 這個趨勢正在急速發展，

has massively accelerated and pushed us into this world even further.

將我們進一步推進到數位交易的世界。

So I'm curious:

所以，我很好奇：

What does the world look like without cash?

如果我們不再使用現金， 或只有少量現金流通，

Or less cash?

世界會變成什麼樣子？

What are the advantages and what are the challenges

這樣的轉型又有什麼益處和挑戰？

of making that transition?

DS: I think some of the trends that are emerging coming out of this pandemic

丹：我認為，有一部分趨勢

是隨著這次疫情而浮現的，

or coming into it and as we look forward is,

clearly, this has been a discontinuous change in the trend line

很顯然，

當我們從實體轉向數位時，

趨勢線的走向就變得不連慣了。

as we move from physical to digital.

I think we've accelerated many forms of digital capabilities

我認為各式功能的數位化

被我們加速了三到五年。

by three to five years.

And that can be from digital payments

範圍從數位支付，

to telemedicine

到遠距醫療，

to really changing the face of retail

到真正改變零售業的樣貌

and how we think about retailing,

及我們如何看待零售業，

changing the face of entertainment,

改變娛樂業的樣貌，

even changing the way governments think about managing and moving money

甚至改變政府對於 資產管理及轉移的看法，

and really thinking about digital currencies going forward.

並真正考慮在將來採用數位貨幣。

And so I think there are a tremendous number of changes

所以我認為，

在這次疫情期間及疫情結束之後，

that will occur

during this pandemic and coming out of it.

將會發生許多改變。

Digital payments is obviously one of the big ones that will happen.

數位支付顯然是其中一項 將要發生的重大改變。

I mean, cash has been around for quite some time,

現金已經存在了相當長一段時間，

thousands of years.

長達數千年。

I would not be so bold as to predict its full demise.

我不敢去預測現金何時會完全消失。

Many people have been wrong doing that.

許多人做過錯誤的預測。

But there is no question right now

但現在，毫無疑問，

that you will see an acceleration of the demise of cash.

我們能看見現金在加速消失。

Last year, you had over 18 trillion dollars of cash

去年，有超過十八兆美金的現金

spent at retail.

花在零售業。

Eighty-five percent of the world's transactions today

現今全世界有 85% 的交易

are done in cash still.

仍然透過現金進行。

But the really big change right now

但目前真正發生在

數位支付上的重大轉變，

towards digital payments,

and that's both the advent and the acceleration of commerce

不論是現在已經成形的商業活動，

還是正加速發展中的商業活動，

that's happening,

as well as the shift to in-store contactless payments, as you said,

以及你剛剛提到的店內 轉向無接觸支付，

and the real impetus for that is health reasons.

其中真正的推動力是基於健康考慮。

People do not want to hand over money.

大家不想摸錢。

They do not want to touch screens.

他們不想要觸碰螢幕。

They don't want to pick up a pen and sign at the point of sale.

他們不想在消費地點拿起筆來簽名。

And so there is a demand

所以產生了需求，

for contactless payments and digital payments

需要無接觸支付以及數位支付

to keep social distancing requirements in place,

來保持必要的社交距離，

to protect the health of cashiers,

保護出納員的健康，

to protect the health of consumers.

保護消費者的健康。

And I think we are going to see, we are already seeing in our business,

我想我們將看到， 我們也已經能在工作中看到，

a surge in digital payments across the world.

數位支付在全世界急速成長的趨勢。

CH: It seems like a great opportunity,

柯：這似乎是個大好機會，

but how do we make sure that this transition is inclusive?

但我們要如何確保人人 都能用到這種交易方式？

I mean, you've talked about how so many people are underserved

你剛才有談到許多人在傳統銀行業

by the traditional banking industry.

無法取得完備的服務。

How do we make sure that those people

我們要如何確保那些人

have that opportunity?

都能有同樣的機會？

And it feels like a smartphone

且，感覺起來，

becomes an essential item.

智慧手機成了必備品。

How do we address that?

我們要如何看待這一點？

DS: Yeah.

丹：對。我的確認為

I do think that a mobile is really a key to unlocking this.

手機是解鎖這一切的關鍵。

I've often said that, really,

我常常說，

one of the big moon shots for the financial services industry

金融服務業的其中一項天大的挑戰

is this idea of not just financial inclusion.

就是不要侷限於普惠金融這個概念。

Most people define financial inclusion

大部分的人把普惠金融定義為

by somebody having access to a bank account,

一個人能隨時使用自己的銀行帳戶，

but just having access to a bank account is not nearly enough.

但光是能隨時使用 銀行帳戶還遠不足夠。

I think what we need to aim for

我認為我們需要把目標放在

is how do we think about financial health?

我們如何看待財務健康？

How do we make sure that people have the ability

我們要如何確保大家有能力

to have some wherewithal

用某種方式讓資本

to create savings to withstand some kind of financial shock to the system?

創造出足夠的儲蓄來承受 金融系統所面對的衝擊？

I do think that mobile phones

我確實認為

這會透過手機實現，

will be the way that this occurs

and will be very inclusive going forward.

且將來會非常普惠。

There are going to be something like six billion smartphones in the world

在接下來的數年間，

全世界會達到六十億支手機。

over the next several years.

The cost of a smartphone is plummeting.

手機的成本會暴跌。

I think in India now you can buy a smartphone for under 25 dollars.

我想，你現在在印度就可以 用二十五美金買到一支智慧手機。

So you're going to have ubiquity of smartphones across the world,

所以智慧手機將遍及全世界，

and, in fact, what's very interesting is, in lower-income populations,

事實上，非常有意思的是， 在低收入人口中，

there is a greater penetration of smartphones than in higher income

智慧手機的滲透率還勝過高收入人口，

because the smartphone is the only device that somebody has.

因為智慧手機是他們僅有的裝置。

Higher-income individuals may have desktops or iPads,

收入較高的人可能會有

桌上型電腦或 iPad 等等，

that kind of thing,

but lower income can afford one device,

但收入較低的人 只負擔得起一個裝置，

and they choose it to be a smartphone

他們選擇智慧手機，

because they can get and live their life through that one device.

因為只要用那一個裝置 他們就可以過生活。

And think about that one device.

想想看那一個裝置。

Really, you have all the power of a bank branch

真的，銀行分行的所有能力

in the palm of your hands.

全都在你的掌心中。

And when you can start to create distribution of services,

當你開始能夠透過智慧手機

提供服務的分配，

financial services,

through a smartphone,

如金融服務，

you then are able to manage and move money

你就能用傳統服務所不能及的方式

in ways that we couldn't do traditionally.

來管理和轉移資產。

In the physical world,

在實體世界，

如果你收到支票，

if you get a check,

you need to then go to a cash checking place to cash it.

你得去兌換支票的地方兌現它。

You stand in line for 30 minutes.

排隊要花三十分鐘。

They then charge you anywhere between two and five percent

接著他們還要收取 2～5% 的手續費，

to just change the format of currency

只為了把貨幣的形式

from a check to cash.

從支票轉為現金。

And then you have cash and you want to pay a bill.

接著，你有現金了，可以去繳帳單了，

You need to stand in line again

你又得到帳單付款處再排一次隊，

at a bill pay,

and then you have to pay maybe 10 dollars

接著，你可能要支付十美金

for an individual bill as a fee.

做為個人票據的費用。

If you do that via a smartphone,

如果你透過智慧手機來操做，

I believe that not only do you save a tremendous amount of time,

我相信你不但能省下大量時間，

because if you're outside the financial system,

因為，若你在金融體系之外，

managing and moving money is practically a part-time job

管理和轉移資產

實際上算是兼差的工作，

to go and do that,

so not only do you save time and return time to individuals,

你不但省下時間，將時間還給個人，

but you can cut the cost of transactions

你還可以將交易成本

by anywhere between 50 and 75 percent.

減少大約 50～75%。

And remember that $140 billion number that I gave you?

還記得我剛才說的數字， 一千四百億美金嗎？

And that's just in the US.

那只是美國的數字。

Imagine if you could cut that in half

試想如果能將那數字減半，

and return that to the most vulnerable populations

將省下的錢還給最沒保障、

that need it most.

最需要這些錢的人。

So I think there's tremendous promise

我認為非常有可能

in the use of technology

可以使用科技

to help provide both inclusion

來協助提供普惠，

and make sure there aren't digital haves and have-nots,

確保在數位的層面上人人有份。

but also to start on this journey towards financial health.

同時開始向金融健康邁進。

CH: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize

柯：是的，我想，很多人沒意識到

that you don't need a bank account or even a credit card

你不需要銀行帳戶， 甚至不需要信用卡，

to open a PayPal account,

也可以申請 PayPal 帳戶，

which is super-interesting.

這點非常有趣。

I mean, do you see a time where traditional banks don't exist

你是否預見一個時代，
 那時的傳統銀行將不復存在，

or at least play a much smaller role in the financial services industry?

或至少在金融服務業中 銀行重要性大大降低？

DS: Well, I think the entire financial services industry

丹：我認為整個金融服務業

is evolving right now,

都在進化中，

and so I think banks will always play a role,

所以我認為銀行永遠 都會佔有一席之地，

or as far into the future as I can see,

至少在我能預見的未來是如此，

but it will evolve.

但它會進化。

I mean, think about basic credit cards.

想想看基本的信用卡就知道。

Today, you think about a credit card,

現今，談到信用卡，

and you think about it predominantly as a form factor,

你會主要把它看作是一種形態因素，

something that you pull out of your pocket.

一種從口袋中掏出來的東西。

Sometimes there's status associated with what you're pulling out of your pocket,

有時，你能從口袋中掏出什麼， 與身分地位有關聯，

depending on the color of that credit card.

這取決於信用卡的顏色。

But really I think those form factors start to go away

但我認為那些因素開始勢微，

and become embedded in digital wallets.

並轉變成數位錢包中置入功能。

So credit will always be an important element.

所以，「信用」永遠會是重要的因素。

You know, most people in the world,

知道嗎，世界上大部分人，

it isn't that their cash outlays exceed their cash intake.

現金花費並沒有超過他們的現金收入。

It's just that they're not evenly distributed.

只是他們沒有平均做分配。

So there are times where your cash outflows exceed your cash intake,

所以有時你的現金花費 會超過你的現金收入，

and there, you need some form of credit to make up that difference.

那時，你就需要透過 某種形態的信用來補足差額。

And so I think forms of credit will always be an important element.

所以我認為各種形態的信用 永遠都會是個重要的元素。

But the way that you extend credit will change going forward,

但擴大信用的方式會在今後發生改變，

the way that you think about scoring people

如何以維持信用為標準

in terms of can they handle credit.

給持卡人評分。

You know, traditionally, in more developed countries,

傳統上，在開發程度較高的國家，

you use what's called FICO scores or bureau scores,

會使用 FICO 評分或機構評分，

but those ignore so many of the financial transactions

但那些評分無視了許多

金融體系統以外的金融交易，

that people who are outside the financial system do,

比如準時支付的房租或帳單。

like paying rent or paying their bills on time.

And with the data and information and machine learning around that --

使用這些數據、資訊， 以及相關的機器學習方法——

and we need to be careful that there aren't biases

我們需要小心謹慎，

built into those algorithms --

不讓偏見置入演算法中——

we can start to do things that could never be done before.

我們可以開始嘗試此前做不成的事。

I'll just give you one quick example.

讓我舉個小案例。

We're one of the largest providers of working capital to small businesses

說到給小型企業提供營運資金，

我們的公司可列入世界之最。

in the world.

We're probably one of the top five in the United States.

在美國我們可能排名前五。

So we've done over 14, 15 billion dollars

我們借給小企業的營運資金

已經超過一百四、五十億美金。

of lending of working capital to small businesses.

Seventy percent of that goes to the 30 percent of counties

七成的資金分到了三成的郡手中，

where 10 or more banks have closed branches.

那些郡各自關閉了至少十間銀行。

And where do banks close branches?

哪些地方會關閉銀行？

Banks close branches in neighborhoods

如果居民區的收入中位數 低於全國均值，

where the median income is below the national average,

銀行就會關閉。

which makes sense because for a branch to be profitable,

這是合理的， 因為若銀行要營利，

they need a certain amount of deposits

就需要一定量的存款

for that branch to actually be profitable.

才能獲利。

And so, in lower income neighborhoods,

所以，在收入較低的居民區，

branches are starting to close.

銀行開始關門。

So why are 70 percent of our loans in those lower income neighborhoods?

那我們為何把七成貸款 給了收入較低的居民區？

It's because we do machine learning.

因為我們用的是機器學習。

We don't even look at FICO scores or bureau scores.

我們甚至不去看 FICO 評分或機構評分。

We look at a number of different data elements.

我們看的數字來自另一套數據元素。

And so we can lend into those lower income neighborhoods

所以我們能把錢借給那些 不受别家機構理睬的

where nobody else can,

低收入居民區，

and when we do that,

而當我們這樣做，

the average sale of a small business goes up by 22 percent.

小企業的平均業績就上升了 22%。

And imagine the impact that has on communities and neighborhoods

想像一下那對社區及鄰里 會有怎樣的影響，

where they can finally get the working capital

他們終於能夠取得營運資金

to expand those small businesses.

用來擴張那些小企業。

And I think that's a perfect example

我認為那是個完美的例子

of the promise of what technology and financial services

說明科技與金融服務的結合

能展現出什麼樣的前景。

married together can do.

CH: I think it's so interesting.

柯：那好有意思。

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

The tech industry has been criticized for amassing power over society,

有評論指責科技業凌駕在社會之上，

not that the banking industry isn't criticized.

倒不是說銀行業就不受指責。

But what do you say about people who might be worried about

但你對大家所擔心的

科技公司在人們生活中 影響力與主導力日益劇增

tech companies taking on even more influence and control

over what's happening in their lives?

有什麼說法？

DS: Yeah.

丹：是的。

Well, I think what's so important for any company and tech companies

我認為對任何公司， 包括科技公司，來說

is to respect the boundaries

尊重界線是很重要的，

in terms of what consumers expect from a company that serves them.

界線是指公司提供的服務 是否與消費者的期望相符。

I think the most important brand attribute that a company can have is trust,

我認為一家公司最重要的 品牌屬性就是信任，

and trust comes from the understanding

而信任源於一項共識：

that a company respects your privacy

公司尊重你的隱私，

and will not sell your data or information,

不會把你的資料或資訊賣掉，

that it can perform transactions in a secure manner

能夠用安全的方式進行交易，

so that your transactions are protected.

讓你的交易會受到保護。

And I think those are kind of foundational,

我認為這些是很基本的，

and I think any company needs to respect that.

我認為任何公司都應該尊重這一點。

They need to assure that consumers

它們得要確保消費者

have the privacy that they desire

能保有他們想要的隱私，

and the safety and security that is required

以及必要的安全性，

to serve them the right way.

用恰當的方式來服務他們。

CH: And obviously, you've gained a lot of trust with the US government.

柯：很顯然，美國政府非常信任你。

Maybe we could talk a little bit about how you've been working with them

也許我們能談談你是怎麼和他們合作

to distribute some money through the Paycheck Protection Program.

以薪資保護計畫來分發部分金額。

And I was curious,

我還很好奇，

I've been reading about it, and it sounds like

我讀過相關報導，

30 million-ish small businesses in the United States

似乎美國有三千多萬家小企業

are able to get those funds,

有資格領取資金，

but only six million have received the loans.

但只有六百萬家 拿到了貸款。

What do you think's happened?

你認為出了什麼問題？

DS: Yep.

丹：好。

Well, I think initially, the government -- and I give them a lot of credit --

我認為，政府一開始 確實有很大的功勞；

they responded quite quickly

他們的回應速度很快，

with a 3 trillion dollar stimulus package.

提出三兆美金的振興方案。

These are massive numbers that were happening

這麼龐大的數字竟能在

在如此緊湊的時程中籌得。

in very condensed time frames.

We were working with various agencies,

我們和各個機關合作，

very closely with the Treasury Department,

和財政部在振興支票的分配上

in terms of distribution of the stimulus.

有相當密切的合作。

And they were working literally night and day on this.

他們真的是日以繼夜投入在此。

The Small Business Administration was working night and day.

小型企業管理局日以繼夜地努力。

But these are volumes

但這些機關系統

that have never been seen before running through these systems,

以前從來沒有處理過這麼大的量，

and the first tranche of those loans

這些貸款中的第一批

was very difficult.

很難處理。

There were a lot of technical difficulties in getting those out to small businesses.

要將貸款發給小企業 有很多技術上的困難。

And that first tranche was not enough,

且第一批的量並不夠，

and it was quickly used,

很快就用光了，

and there are still a host of small businesses

還有相當多小企業

that needed money.

需要錢。

The second tranche that came out

推出的第二批貸款

is still actually in effect.

仍然在實行中，

It has not been used up,

還沒有用光，

and we are continuing to lend on that.

我們會持續提供貸款。

We've been able to lend to some 50,000 small businesses.

我們已經借給了五萬間小企業。

We've lent out about 1.7 billion dollars,

我們借出了十七億美金，

and our loan size,

我對我們的貸款金額

which really I'm proud of,

感到很驕傲，

is about 31,000 dollars.

大約是三萬一千美金。

The average that a bank does is between 100 and 125,000 dollars.

銀行的平均貸款金額是 十萬到十二萬五千美金。

So we are lending to these true small businesses

我們把錢借貸給了位在商業中心的

on Main Street,

真正的小型企業，

and I'm proud that we've been able to go do that,

為此我感到很驕傲，

and I think we should give credit to the US government

我認為這也要歸功於美國政府

and governments around the world

及世界各地負責任的政府，

that are taking this quite seriously

他們嚴陣以待，

and putting a tremendous amount, a percentage of their GDP,

拿出能影響其 GDP 的巨大金額，

towards the rescue of small businesses

投入拯救小企業

and towards trying to take care of consumers

以及試圖保護那些

that find themselves in really difficult straits right now.

身處在困境中的消費者。

And we've been trying to,

我們一直在嘗試，

instead of people mailing out checks, which is ridiculous in today's world --

不要用郵寄支票的方式， 說來可笑——

people aren't living where they think they're going to be living,

人們現在並非都住在 他們本該在的地址，

they're with their parents or with friends or in a different location,

而是與父母或朋友同住， 或是另有住址，

and mailing a check

而郵寄支票，

and then having to take a check and go somewhere,

然後拿著支票到其他地方兌現，

which you can't even go if you're sheltered in place,

若你處於就地避難狀態 還根本去不成，

to cash it,

doing that electronically just makes a ton more sense --

用電子化的做法合理多了——

and we've been working with the IRS and Treasury

我們一直和國內稅務局、財政部，

and other government agencies to distribute that electronically.

及其他政府機關合作， 以電子的方式做分發。

CH: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

柯：對，那合理多了。

It's a massive, massive project

對我們所有人而言， 這是個非常大的工程。

for all of us.

Whitney is here with some questions from our community.

惠妮帶來了一些社群成員想問的問題。

DS: Hello, Whitney.

丹：哈囉，惠妮。

Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Hello Dan. How are you?

惠妮潘尼頓羅傑斯： 哈囉，丹，你好嗎？

社群成員有一些有趣的問題，

So the community has some interesting questions

following up on what you were talking about earlier about security.

和你先前談到的安全性有關。

We have a question from Marc --

馬克問了一個問題。

and I apologize in advance if I mispronounce your name, Marc --

馬克，如果我唸錯你的 名字，先說聲抱歉。

馬克．范勒柏格：

Marc Vanlerberghe:

"The move to digital cash could be one more step

「轉向數位現金可能讓國家

towards creating the perfect surveillance state.

更接近完全監控狀態。

要如何避免這個狀況發生？」

How do we avoid this from happening?"

DS: Yeah, well, this is what I was talking about, Marc, before.

丹：是的，馬克， 這就是我之前在談的。

I mean, I think this idea of trust

我認為，關於信任的概念

is incredibly important.

極度重要。

I think the only companies that will be successful --

我認為，公司若要成功……

and I think we hold a lot of this in our own hands as consumers, by the way;

順便一提，我認為有很多事 是我們消費者自己能控制的，

we need to be aware of data and information that we're giving

我們要意識到自己提供的 數據和資訊是什麼，

and to what companies we're doing that with --

以及提供給了什麼公司。

but I think the companies that will be successful

但我認為，公司若要成功，

are those that have a high degree of trust,

必須要有高度的信任，

and trust happens by protecting your privacy

而信任源於保護你的隱私，

but also very much assuring that your transactions in a digital world

同時必須確保你在數位世界

進行的交易是安全的。

are safe and secure.

I mean, the idea of cybersecurity

「網路安全」這個觀念

has always been important,

一直都很重要，

but is ever more important as we move from physical to digital,

但隨著我們從實體轉到數位， 它的重要性又更高了，

and that's where large data sets are important,

此時大型數據集就很重要，

because a consumer's identity is stolen every two seconds.

因為每兩秒鐘就有 一位消費者的身分被竊取。

Every two seconds, some consumer has their identity stolen.

每兩秒鐘，就有某個 消費者的身分被竊取。

And so we have to be, for instance,

我們必須，比如，

we have to be sure that even when you sign in

我們必須要確保，

即使你的登入已通過驗證，

with your credentials,

they're actually real credentials.

也要確保驗證必須是真實有效。

We have to look at 30 to 100 different elements of that transaction

我們必須要分析該交易的 三十到一百個不同元素，

to make sure it's really you

才能確保登入的真的是你，

before we let that money out of your account.

然後我們才會讓錢離開你的帳戶。

And so there is a combination of making sure you have enough data

所以這是結合了兩件事：

一方面確保有足夠資料來保護某人，

to protect somebody

but also assure that your privacy is held sacrosanct,

此外也要確定不能侵犯到你的隱私，

and I think that is a balancing act and one that needs to happen

我認為這是一個平衡點， 必須要找到這個點，

in order for us to do this successfully.

才有可能讓這一切成功。

WPR: Great, and actually sort of going from digital cash to digital currency,

惠：好極了，現在要從 數位現金談到數位貨幣，

we have another question from Simone Ross in our community

社群成員席夢．羅斯 問了另一個問題，

about the opportunity that exists for digital currency.

和目前數位貨幣發展的機會有關。

She mentioned that PayPal pulled out of Libra.

她提到 PayPal 退出 加密貨幣計畫 Libra。

What would it take for a truly inclusive digital currency to take hold here?

若要讓真正普惠的數位貨幣 能札穩腳跟，該怎麼做？

DS: Yeah.

丹：好。

I think there is a tremendous amount of promise

我認為，談到數位貨幣，

as we think about digital currencies.

它的前景相當不錯。

Our pulling out of Libra

我們離開 Libra，

had nothing to do with our firm conviction

與我們堅定的信念無關，

that blockchain and other forms of maybe stable coin currencies

我們的信念是，區塊鏈 及其他形式的穩定的錢幣式貨幣

are extremely important

是極度重要的，

and can be very, very helpful,

且可能非常非常有幫助，

especially in different parts of the world.

特別是在世界上不同的地區。

As we think about stability in different parts of the world

關於穩定性，想想看在世界上不同地區，

where currencies can fluctuate up and down,

貨幣有可能會上下波動，

to have a more stable currency where somebody can know,

若能有一種為他人所知的 比較穩定的貨幣

如果人們持有

if they have that,

that it's going to be worth x amount,

價值為 X 的該貨幣，

and that they can transact,

他們就可以進行交易，

either with other individuals around the world

既能和世界各地的個人交易，

or, importantly, at merchants around the world.

另外，很重要地， 亦能在全世界的商家買東西。

And we are looking at all forms of digital currencies right now,

我們正在研究各式數位貨幣，

working hand in hand with a number of different governments,

與不同的政府攜手合作，

and I think we should all think about how technology is going to evolve

我認為我們都該思考 科技的進化方式，

and how currencies will evolve as a result of that.

進而思考貨幣的進化方式。

And I think this crisis has really opened the eyes

我認為這次危機真正讓世界上

許多政府都開了眼界，

of many governments around the world

as to the need for different tool sets

發現他們需要不同的工具組

to create stimulus

來振興國家，

and to efficiently and quickly and effectively distribute funds

有效率、快捷、有效地

將資金分配給公民。

to their citizens.

WPR: Great. Well, I'll be back shortly with more questions,

惠：我馬上會帶更多問題回來，

我想提醒一下社群成員，

and I'd just love to remind the community that you can ask questions

可以用「問問題」功能來發問。

on the "Ask question" feature.

請務必在下拉頁籤選擇第二集，

Be sure to use the pull-down tab to select Episode 2,

問題來才會進來。

so those questions come.

Thank you.

謝謝。

DS: Thanks, Whitney.

丹：謝謝，惠妮。

CH: Thanks, Whitney.

柯：謝謝，惠妮。

Dan, I want to go back to something we touched on in the beginning

丹，我想回到我們 起初始談到的問題：

about financial wellness.

金融健全性。

PayPal has done something unique

PayPal 做了一件獨特的事：

in terms of calculating how much to pay people

計算出該給人們支付多少薪水，

and how much you should spend on benefits.

以及該花多少錢在福利上。

Traditionally, wages are set by the market,

傳統上，薪水是由市場來決定的，

but you've found that paying as much or even more than other companies

但你發現，即便薪水 等於或高於其他公司，

wasn't always enough.

也不見得足夠。

Can you tell us about that moment?

你能否跟我們談談這件事？

DS: Yeah.

丹：好。

So I said, kind of, in our opening, in one of my opening statements,

我在開場的陳述中有提到，

that two-thirds of Americans struggle to make ends meet

三分之二的美國人

在月底都很難做到收支平衡。

at the end of the month.

They are financially stressed,

他們在財務上的壓力很大，

and it kind of wreaks havoc in their life.

讓他們的生活一團亂。

I did a study to look at PayPal employees.

針對 PayPal 的員工

We did a research study,

我們做了一項研究，

and I did it because I thought I was going to get back this great information

我原以為我能研究出一些不錯的資訊，

that I was going to talk about at an employee meeting

可以拿到場員工會議上 做為談話的資料，

about how well we pay,

談談我們的薪水有多好，

because we pay, to your point,

因為就像你說的，我們付的薪水

at or above market

相較於世界各地

in every single location around the world.

只高不低。

And what I found is, unfortunately, like the rest of the world,

不幸的是，我發現，和全世界一樣，

even though we paid at market or above market,

雖然我們給的薪水 等於或高於市場，

60 percent of our operations personnel,

我們六成的營運人員、

our entry-level employees, our hourly workers,

初階員工、計時人員，

face the same thing.

都面臨同樣的狀況：

They struggle to make ends meet.

很難讓收支平衡。

And that was simply unacceptable for me.

對我來說實在無法接受。

I think the world is changing

我認為世界在改變，

in terms of the responsibility of corporations,

企業的責任在改變，

the responsibility of CEOs.

執行長的責任在改變。

We have a lot of different stakeholders that we try to satisfy,

我們試圖滿足許多 不同的利害關係人，

from regulators to shareholders to customers to employees.

從管理機關，到股東， 到客戶，到員工。

But I think the number one responsibility that we have

但我認為我們的第一要任

is the health -- financial health -- of our employees,

就是我們員工的財務健康，

because nothing could be more important to a company

因為對公司來說， 最重要的莫過於

than to have financially secure, passionate employees working for you,

擁有一群有財務保障 且具有熱情的員工為你工作，

因為要讓客戶得到最優質的服務

because nobody is going to serve customers

better than employees who feel a part of something

員工必須要有歸屬感、

and feel financially secure and glad to be a part of that company.

在財務上要有安全感、 並樂於成為公司的一份子。

And so then the real question becomes: How do you measure that?

所以，真正的問題就變成： 你要如何衡量它？

Because a lot of people think about living wages or a minimum wage.

很多人會認為要以 工資或最低工資來衡量。

And we thought that was insufficient,

而我們認為那不夠全面，

and we came up with a measurement we called "net disposable income,"

於是我們提出了一項衡量標準： 「淨可支配收入」，

which is, basically:

基本上就是：

After you pay taxes and your basically essential living expenses,

在你繳完稅以及支付 基本生活必要花費之後，

how much money do you have left over for discretionary things

你還剩下多少錢

可以任意買東西或存起來？

or to save?

And here's the really unfortunate thing -- and I'm not proud of this,

而真正不幸的事情是 ——我感到汗顏，

but remember, we were paying at market or above,

但別忘了，我們付的工資 等於或高於市場，

so I thought the market would take care of this, right, by doing that --

所以我以為市場就會處理這些——

we found that for that population,

而我們發現了這樣的族群，

they had four to six percent NDI, net disposable income,

他們在繳稅和支付必要生活花費之後，

淨可支配收入只有 4～6% 。

after paying taxes and essential living expenses.

That is not enough.

那是不夠用的，

You are going to struggle to make ends meet.

要讓收支平衡是很困難的。

And by the way, NDI changes location to location to location

此外，全球各地的 淨可支配收入都不一樣。

around the globe, right?

There's a different NDI in Manila, a different NDI in Omaha, Nebraska,

淨可支配收入在馬尼拉、

在內布拉斯加州的奧馬哈市，

than there is in New York City, etc.

與在紐約市相比都不相同。

And so we basically said to ourselves,

所以，基本上，我們告訴自己，

we need to take NDI to 20 percent.

要把淨可支配收入拉到 20%。

Because at 20 percent --

因為，若達到 20% ——

and that's a huge shift, from four to six to 20 percent --

從 4～6% 提升到 20% 是個很大的轉變——

but at 20 percent, you actually have the ability to save

但，若達到 20%， 你就會有能力做儲蓄，

and to put money away and to take care of discretionary expenses.

同時把錢存起來，當作可支配開銷。

And so we did a pretty massive reorientation

所以我們針對自己的補償制度

做了大規模的重新定位。

of our compensation systems.

We lowered the cost of benefits by 58 percent,

我們將福利的成本降低了 58%，

because benefits are like a regressive tax,

因為福利就像是累退稅，

you pay the same amount no matter what your salary is.

不論你的薪水多高， 要支付的金額都一樣。

And so we had a lot of employees who weren't taking health care benefits,

於是有許多員工 不領取健康照護福利，

because it cost too much to be able to do that.

因為領取的成本太高了。

So we lowered it by 58 percent.

所以我們將它降低了 58%。

We made every single employee of PayPal a shareholder

我們讓 PayPal 的 每個員工都成為股東，

and an owner of the business,

成為公司的所有人，

and we gave them pretty big grants

提供他們高額獎金，

so that they could be a part of the success of PayPal going forward.

讓他們未來能分享 PayPal 事業的成就。

We raised salaries where we needed to go and do that.

在必要之處提高薪水。

And then we wrapped all of that into a financial education program,

然後我們把這一切囊括在 一項財務教育計畫中，

because people had never gotten equity before,

因為大家以前從來沒有拿過股權，

they were trying to think through,

他們在試著想通：

"How do I save now that I've got incremental dollars to go and do that?"

「我現在有了會增值的錢， 要如何做儲蓄？」

And that cost us quite a bit of money to go and do that,

我們花了不少錢來做這些，

but I really feel,

但我真心覺得，

just like how we spend a lot of money to take care of customers,

就像你先前提到的， 在新型冠狀病毒疫情時，

as you mentioned up front, in COVID-19,

我們花了很多錢來保護我們的客戶，

that companies need to stand for more than just making money,

公司不能只為賺錢，

for more than just maximizing our profits next quarter.

不能只為追求 下個季度的利益最大化。

I firmly, firmly believe

我堅定不移地相信，

that the costs associated with taking care of our employees,

保護我們的員工、我們的客戶

所花費的相關成本，

taking care of our customers,

will benefit us in the long run

在長期會對我們有益，

multiplefold over the costs associated with doing that.

賺回成本的許多倍。

And we're already beginning to see some of the impact of that.

我們已經能看到這個做法 帶來的一些影響了。

And so, I think every CEO, every company,

我認為每位執行長，每家公司，

needs to really now start to think about,

現在都需要開始做這方面的思考，

especially maybe as a result of this crisis,

特別是因為這次危機，

but as I mentioned, we had a crisis before this,

但，我先前提過，以前也有過危機，

how do we put our employees first, take care of them?

如何把員工放在第一，保護好他們？

Because if you do that, you'll take care of customers,

因為員工受到保護， 客戶就收到了保護，

and if you take care of customers,

而客戶受到保護，

you'll take of shareholders, inevitably.

股東必然也就受到了保護。

And so this has been a huge part of it

大概去年，

我們就投入很多在這上面。

about for the last year or so.

CH: It's so interesting,

柯：真有意思，

and it brings up so many questions, I think,

這也讓我有好多問題想問，

for me and probably our community as well.

也許社群成員也一樣。

I mean, PayPal is a hugely profitable tech business,

PayPal 是獲利非常好的科技公司，

huge free cash flow and big margins.

大量的自由現金流以及高額利潤。

Do you think this model is something that every company can do,

你認為這個模型 是每間公司都能用的嗎？

whether it's a tech company, a manufacture, a meatpacking business?

不論是科技公司、製造商、 肉類加工業都可以用嗎？

I mean, is this what everyone should be focused on?

這是大家都應該專注的地方嗎？

DS: Well, I think that -- and I don't want to moralize

丹：我認為——我不想要說教

or tell other companies what they should do --

或告訴其他公司他們該怎麼做——

but to me, I think everyone should understand

但，對我來說， 我認為大家都應該了解

the financial health of their employees.

自己員工的財務健康。

That's a baseline thing to go do.

那是最基本該做到的。

What you do post-that

在那之後要怎麼做，

is up to maybe your financial strength as a company

也許就要看公司的財力之類的，

or where you put your order of priorities.

或者如何排定優先順序。

But what I've found is,

但，我發現，

I thought the market could tell you that,

我原以為市場能告訴你這些，

and this is why I say, in many ways --

所以我說過，在許多層面上……

you know, I'm a big believer in capitalism.

我是資本主義的忠實信徒；

I think it's, in many ways,

我認為，在許多層面上，

the best economic system that I know of.

我所知道的經濟體制中最好的就是它。

But, like everything, it needs an upgrade.

但和所有東西一樣，它也需要升級。

It needs tuning,

它需要調整，

and at least for these vulnerable populations,

至少要為這些弱勢的族群做調整，

just because you pay at market

你按照市場的價格來給工資，

doesn't mean that they have financial health or financial wellness.

並不表示員工就能夠有健康的財務。

And I think everyone should know

我認為所有人都應該了解

whether or not their employees have the wherewithal to be able to save

自己的員工是否有錢可以儲蓄，

to withstand financial shocks,

能否承受財務衝擊，

and then really understand, like, what can you do about it?

從而真正了解，自己對此能做些什麼？

I think this NDI measure

我認為「淨可支配收入」這種衡量方式

is a really interesting one.

相當有意思。

It takes some time to go do it,

要花些時間去實現，

because you have to be quite thorough

因為你必須要夠徹底，

and you have to really understand living expenses by location

你必須要真正了解 每個地區的生活花費，

and what tax jurisdictions there are.

以及他們在稅務上所屬的轄區。

But you need to create an NDI

但你必須要讓「淨可支配收入」

that's to a certain level

達到某種程度，

where people aren't struggling to make ends meet.

讓大家不用很艱難地做到收支平衡。

Because if people are struggling to make ends meet,

因為如果連收支平衡都艱難，

they are not as productive at work.

大家的工作就不會很有生產力。

They're worried about, like, what am I going to do with my kids?

他們會擔心，比如， 我該拿我的孩子怎麼辦？

My kid just got sick. I don't have health insurance.

我的孩子病得很重，我沒有健康保險。

I think there's a spiral that occurs.

我認為這是一種螺旋現象。

You think you're actually saving money

你以為你錢花得少

by paying less,

就算是儲蓄了，

but the reality is,

但事實是，

at least in my belief system,

至少在我的信念體系中，

you take care of your employees,

你要照顧你的員工，

and other things naturally flow from that.

其他的自然就會隨之而來。

They are more productive.

他們會比較有生產力。

They love being a part of that company.

他們會樂於成為公司的一份子。

They take care of customers better.

他們會把客戶照顧得更好。

And all of those things

所有這些，

inevitably accrue to the benefit of a company

必然都會累積起來，為公司帶來益處，

in terms of how it's trying to serve its ultimate end market.

在公司要如何滿足 終端市場方面帶來助益。

But it starts with your employees.

但要從員工做起。

CH: So obviously you believe in this "capitalism needs an upgrade,"

柯：所以，很顯然你相信 「資本主義需要升級」，

and I think NDI is something so many companies should adopt.

我認為很多公司都應該採用 「淨可支配收入」。

But do you think this happens through benevolent corporate activity?

但你是否會認為公司 要有仁慈之心才可能實現？

I'm channeling my inner Bernie Bro here,

這是我內心的伯尼桑德斯 支持魂在說話，

but I think a lot of people would be skeptical

但我認為很多人會懷疑，

that we should trust companies to do better at this point.

認為我們是無法相信 公司此時能變得更好。

Should the government step in to raise minimum wages,

政府是否該介入，提高最低工資，

do other things to protect workers in a more structured way?

採取其他做法，以更有 結構性的方式來保護勞工？

DS: Look, I think the government clearly has a role to play,

丹：我認為政府的角色很明確，

and I think the private and public sectors

我認為私部門和公部門

need to work closer together

需要做更密切的合作，

to address so many of the issues

才能處理我們在全世界社會中

that we face in our societies across the world,

面臨的眾多議題，

whether that be income inequality,

不論是收入不平等、

environmental issues,

環境議題、

health,

健康、

protections, that kind of thing,

保護之類的、

privacy.

隱私。

But the way that I think about this is,

但我對此的看法是，

政府很難在這方面做管理，

it's very difficult for governments to regulate around this,

because there are so many different ways of thinking about it.

因為有好多不同的思考角度。

If I were another CEO,

如果我是另一位執行長，

and this is like,

那就像是，

it's actually in your best interest

這樣做其實是

對你最有利的做法，

to go and do this

because it's a competitive advantage.

因為這和競爭優勢有關。

我想，我們吸引了

Like, we attract, I think,

some of the best talent in the world

世界上一些最有才華的人

to PayPal,

到 PayPal 來，

because we have a mission that people believe in,

因為大家相信我們的使命，

that we actually are trying to make some sort of positive difference.

我們真的在試圖做出正面的改變。

I'm not saying we're the be-all and end-all,

我並不是說我們是最好的，

but I don't think people should shirk their responsibilities

但我認為大家不應該躲避責任，

of at least making a small difference

至少在向前邁進時

可以做出小小的改變。

going forward.

如果有夠多公司這麼做， 如果有夠多政府這麼做，

If enough companies did that, if enough governments did that,

it would make a real difference

就能真正改變世界。

in the world.

And then the second thing is,

接著，第二點，

you have to have values that support that.

必須要有支持這種做法的價值觀。

And those values are incredibly important.

那些價值觀非常重要。

那些價值觀能夠全面普惠。

Those values should be all about inclusion.

They should be about having a diverse workforce.

能夠提倡全體員工多樣化。

They should be about financial wellness.

能夠提倡財務健全。

And when you do that,

如果做到這一點，

and you attract the very best talent,

就能吸引最棒的人才，

then by definition,

接著，根據定義，

I think the single biggest competitive advantage for any company

我認為對任何公司而言 最大的競爭優勢

is their workforce.

就是其員工。

Strategies are great.

策略很棒。

A whole number of things are great.

很多東西都很棒。

You have a great workforce

如果你有很棒的員工，

that's passionate about what they're doing

他們對工作充滿熱情

且不必為財務擔憂，

and is financially secure,

and they will do amazing things.

他們會成就很了不起的事。

And I think it's that kind of competitive advantage

我認為這種競爭優勢

that will spur companies.

能帶動公司向前進。

So there needs to be

所以，必須要有

a set of CEOs and companies

一群執行長和公司

that start to move in this direction,

開始朝這個方向邁進，

and I believe you're beginning to see more do this.

而我相信你會開始看到 越來越多的人這樣做。

And once that happens,

一旦這點實現了，

it starts to tip everything,

就會開始改變一切，

and I think more and more need to do it

我認為有越來越多人需要這麼做，

to maintain their competitive positioning.

以維持自己的具有競爭力的定位。

And that may seem like a self-serving way why people are doing it,

出於這種理由而做，似乎很自私，

but honestly,

但，坦白說，

I don't care whether they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart

我不在乎他們是出於心中的良善而做，

or they're doing it because it's competitively a disadvantage

還是因為不做就會在競爭上居於劣勢，

if they don't.

因此才去做。

Creating financial health for our employees is the goal,

目標是為我們的員工 創造財務的健康，

and we've got to get that done.

我們必須要做到這一點。

CH: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you think of this as a win-win,

柯：是的。聽起來 你認為這是一種雙贏，

but it also sounds like you're willing to maybe think about your employees first

但聽起來也像是你也許 願意先考量你的員工，

and sell it to your shareholders later.

之後再游說股東。

Whitney is -- oh sorry, go ahead.

惠妮——喔，抱歉，請說。

DS: No, no, no -- I was just going to say,

丹：不，不——我只是要說， 我確實如此相信，

I actually do believe that,

我認為

and I think the idea of a multistakeholder capitalism,

多方利害關係人資本主義的這個概念

that is a time for today,

現今是個時機，

and we cannot just think

我們不能以為我們只需要

that we have one stakeholder that we need to satisfy.

滿足一個利害關係人就好。

We live in our communities, we live in this world.

我們生活在我們的社區中， 我們生活在這個世界上。

To have people struggling day in and day out

有人日復一日在辛苦地掙扎

is not good for any company, and ...

對任何公司都不是好事，且……

We can only do x amount,

我們只能做到 X 的量，

but we can actually create financial health for our employees,

但我們其實能為我們的員工 創造出財務健康，

and we should.

我們也應該這麼做。

WPR: Great. So we have so many questions coming in from the community.

惠：好極了。我們有許多 來自社群的問題。

One here is from Lara Pearson,

蘿拉皮爾森問了一個問題，

basically about whether PayPal would consider become a B Corporation.

基本上是關於 PayPal 是否考慮成為 B 型企業。

"Are you familiar with the B Corp movement,

「你是否清楚 B 型企業運動，

environmentally and socially responsible, multiple-bottom-line for profits?

在環境上和社會上盡責任等 獲利的多重底線？

Presuming so, has PayPal considered or would it consider

如果清楚，PayPal 是否曾經／將會考慮

becoming a certified B Corporation?"

成為認證的 B 型企業？」

DS: Yep. I'm familiar with B Corp.

丹：好，我很清楚 B 型企業。

We have no intention to move

我們沒有打算

to becoming a B Corporation.

要成為 B 型企業。

I think the values and what we are trying to do

我認為

這些價值觀及我們試圖去做的事

are very aligned with assuring a multistakeholder point of view,

和多方利害關係人的觀點高度一致，

but what I really want

但我真正想要的，

is for this to be a movement

是要讓我們所做的

across major corporations across the world.

成為全世界大企業的運動。

And you're not going to have major corporations around the world

不可能讓全世界各地的大企業

moving into B Corp.

成為 B 型企業。

There's a lot of other side issues involved

要成為 B 型企業

會牽涉到很多相關議題，

with being a B Corporation

as opposed to just a publicly listed company,

相對之下，公司只是 公開上市就單純得多，

and so that's going to be a long way before that happens.

還有很長的路要走，才可能實現。

And so what I'm really trying to do is

我在努力做的是

encourage and demonstrate

鼓勵並示範

that being multistakeholder,

成為多方利害關係人，

that putting employees first,

將員工擺在第一，

creates competitive advantage.

創造競爭優勢。

And I think I'm not the only CEO who's feeling that, by the way.

順道一提，我認為

還有其他的執行長也有同感。

I think people like Satya Nadella from Microsoft are doing a great job,

我認為比如微軟執行長 薩蒂亞納德拉就做得很棒。

Marc Benioff from Salesforce.

Salesforce 的馬克貝尼奧夫也是。

I could go through quite a list of names.

我還可以列出很多人。

But the list is not long enough yet,

但這份名單還不夠長，

but I think there's some quite important names

但我認為，有些世界各地

頗具重要性的人物現在都在

and individuals around the world

who are now talking about multistakeholder capitalism,

談論多方利害關係人資本主義，

and I think that's an important element as we think about our economies

我認為那是個很重要的元素， 會影響到我們的經濟

and way of life looking forward.

以及未來的生活方式。

WPR: And there was so much interest also in your net disposable income program

很多人對你的淨可支配收入計畫

很感興趣，也提出許多相關問題，

and a lot of questions around that,

and one which I think is along these same lines from Juan Enriquez

我認為胡安恩里奎茲 問的問題就與這些十分相關，

asking about a rational way to address extreme income disparities.

他問到有什麼合理的方式 可以處理收入的極端兩極化。

And perhaps you could expand beyond this program,

也許你可以擴大談到這個計畫之外，

just sort of ways that we might think about this

在這方面我們可以考慮

in a smarter way moving forward.

用什麼聰明的方式向前邁進？

DS: Yeah.

丹：好。

Well, there's no easy solution, or it would have been done.

並沒有簡單的解決方案，

要不然早就有人做了。

So I think there are a couple things that I think about

我會考量的點有幾個，

that may not fully address extreme income disparities.

但可能無法完全解決 收入極端兩極化的問題。

Again, I try to think pragmatically about these things,

同樣的，

我試著很務實地思考這些，

and, like, what can we really do to start to address this?

比如，若要開始處理這個議題， 我們真正能做的是什麼？

And again, I think about,

同樣的，我會想，

if we could take one step and then another step,

如果我們能先踏出一步， 接著再踏出一步，

then you're starting your journey,

接著你就開始這段旅程了，

and without getting overwhelmed by how far away the end state is.

且不會因為終點遙遠而感到無法招架。

So one, I think companies need to take care of their employees,

所以，第一，我認為公司 必須要保護其員工，

and I think that will immediately help to address

那麼做就能馬上協助處理

some of these income disparities.

一部分收入兩極化的問題。

Number two, I do think that,

第二，我真的認為，

ironically, if you have less money,

很諷刺的是，

如果你擁有的錢比較少，

it costs you more to manage and move it,

你要管理和轉移資產的成本會更高，

which, think about that:

想想看：

the less money you have, if you're outside the financial system,

你擁有的錢越少， 如果你在金融體系之外，

the more you spend to manage and move your money.

你就得花更多錢 去管理和移動你的那些錢。

And I think that technology

我認為，

我們至少可以考慮

用科技作為基本的方法，

is at least a foundational way for us to think about

how do we cut the basic costs of managing and moving money

來思考如何把管理和移動金錢

所需要的基本成本縮減五到七成，

by 50 to 70 percent,

like [check-cashing],

就像兌現支票、

sending remittances,

匯款，

which are such a huge, important part of the world's economy.

這些是世界經濟中 非常重大的一部分。

You know, you do it a traditional way,

如果你用傳統的方式來做，

you go into a store

你要到一家店裡，

and send the remittance to another store and somebody goes and picks it up.

將錢匯給另一家店， 對方去那家店領取。

First of all, incredibly time-consuming,

首先，非常耗時間，

and it can cost between eight and 12 percent

成本可能達

你匯款金額的 8～12%。

of that remittance amount that you're sending.

So if you're sending a hundred dollars,

如果你匯出一百美金，

the recipient who so desperately needs it

急切需要錢的接收方

is getting 88 to 90 dollars.

拿到的會是八十八到九十美金。

If you do that electronically, digital wallet to digital wallet,

如果用電子的方式來做， 從數位錢包轉到數位錢包，

that can be like three percent,

成本可能是 3%，

so you can get 97 dollars from that.

你能拿到九十七美金。

And so I think there are ways of addressing the costs.

所以，我認為有方法

可以處理成本問題。

As I mentioned,

我先前提過，

there is so much money spent on unnecessary fees

有太多錢花在

不必要的費用及高利率上，

and high interest rates,

and if we can drop that by 20 percent, 30 percent,

如果能把那些費用降低兩、三成，

the amount of money we can return to vulnerable populations is quite large

我們能夠還給弱勢族群的金額

就相當可觀，且能開始改變世界。

and will start to make a difference.

WPR: That's great.

惠：很棒，觀眾還有一大堆問題，

We have a ton of questions from the audience,

just one more before we turn things back over to Corey

讓我們再問一個，再交還給 柯莉讓她問最後的問題。

with her final questions.

This one is from Anna Tunkel,

這是安娜唐柯提的問題，我想，

which is just, I think, as we are rounding to the end of the interview here,

既然已經到了訪談尾聲， 她的問題很適合：

"What are you most optimistic about,

「在新型冠狀病毒之後 要『重建得更好』，

and what do you see as the biggest opportunities

你最樂觀的是什麼？ 你認為最大的機會是什麼？」

for 'Building Back Better' after COVID?"

DS: Well, I mean,

丹：嗯，有件事其實

one thing I'm actually optimistic about --

讓我感到很樂觀——

and I've always been a believer in the human spirit

且我向來都很相信人類精神，

and the power of an individual to make a difference.

以及個人具備改變世界的力量。

I know that sounds very cliché, but I truly believe it,

我知道這聽起來很老套， 但我是真心相信，

and I think every one of us can make a difference.

而我認為我們每個人都可以改變世界。

But here's what I'm seeing.

但我開始看到

I'm beginning to see that at a much larger scale

規模越來越大， 超過我以前所看到的。

than I've ever seen before.

You know, we have different platforms,

我們有不同的平台， 不論是 PayPal 平台或 Venmo 平台，

either the PayPal platform or the Venmo platform,

在美國是 Venno，全世界是 PayPal。

Venmo here in the US, PayPal across the world.

The amount of giving that's happening through those platforms,

透過這些平台所給出的金額，

whether it be to local businesses,

不論是給當地企業、

to artists, to musicians,

藝術家、音樂家、

to bartenders,

酒保、

to places of worship, to schools,

宗教場所、學校、

to NGOs, to charities

非政府組織、慈善機構，

has exploded on the platform, exploded.

在平台上爆增。

We have helped to raise on the PayPal platform

我們在 PayPal 平台上 協助募得的款項，

since COVID-19 struck

從新型冠狀病毒來襲之後，

2.8 billion dollars for NGOs and charities --

已經有二十八億美金

募給非政府組織及慈善 機構——二十八億美金。

2.8 billion.

That's incredible,

那很不簡單，

the amount of generosity that is pouring out

全球各地的人因為此事展現出的慷慨

from the global community around this.

十分驚人。

And we're just seeing people randomly pay it forward.

我們也看到大家會隨機 把這份心繼續傳出去。

Somebody gives 20 dollars to a bartender,

有人會給酒保二十美金，

and that bartender takes 10 dollars of that

而酒保拿了其中的十美金，

and gives it to somebody else.

把剩下的再拿給別人。

And we're watching that over our platform,

在我們的平台上看到這些現象，

and that gives me a sense of optimism.

帶給我樂觀。

I also feel like this period of time

我也認為，

在這段時間，

has exposed a number of things that were happening

有幾件本來就存在卻沒被發現的事情

也被揭露出來，

but were invisible,

and I think when things become visible,

我認為當事情被攤在陽光下，

that's when you can start to address them,

就可以開始處理它們，

and I think there's a lot of attention

我認為很多人注意到了

on some issues that should have had attention before,

一些早就該被注意到的議題，

but vulnerable populations don't have as loud a voice as others,

弱勢族群的聲音不容易被人們聽見，

and now that voice is being heard, because you can't ignore it.

現在，他們的聲音被聽見了， 因為無法再忽視它。

And hopefully, that will create progress

希望，那能夠帶來進步，

against some of these structural inequalities

改善一些長久以來

that have been there for a long time.

在結構上的不平等。

WPR: That's wonderful.

惠：很棒。

And there's so much interest online.

線上好多人感興趣。

You have some other questions to ask as well.

你那邊也有一些問題要問。

CH: So I think we have one more from our community

柯：我想我們就再聽一個

社群成員賈桂琳艾希比的問題。

from Jacqueline Ashby.

Anna sort of stole my last question,

安娜差不多把我要問的問完了，

which was to restore our faith in humanity.

我要問的是關於如何 恢復我們對人類的信心。

But, there's so much interest coming in about NDI.

但，有好多人對 「淨可支配收入」 感興趣。

Is there a way for people to learn more,

有沒有什麼方式可以讓大家了解更多，

for you to share your study and your methodology?

你能否用什麼方式分享 你的研究及你的方法論？

DS: Happy to do so.

丹：樂意之至。

There is nothing proprietary about it.

這完全不是私有的專利。

We would love for this to be --

我們很希望這能夠——

look, and this may not be the be-all and end-all measurement.

這可能不是最理想的措施。

It's the best one we could come up with,

這是我們能提出的方法中最好的，

but if working within the community,

但如果在社群內合作的話，

we can evolve it and think about maybe things that it missed

我們可以改善它，

想想也許我們漏了什麼，

or maybe things that could be done better,

或者也許有哪裡可以做得更好，

that would be fantastic.

那就太棒了。

I don't know the best way of doing that.

我不知道做這件事最好的方法是什麼。

I'll leave that to Corey and Whitney to help me think that through,

這就留給柯莉和惠妮來幫我想想吧，

but of course we'd be willing to share it.

但我們當然是很樂意分享的。

There is nothing about that that I don't want to share.

這方面我可以毫無保留。

CH: Sounds like a good TED Talk.

柯：聽起來可以辦 一場很棒的 TED 演講。

Thank you so much, Dan. This has been a super-interesting conversation.

非常謝謝你，丹。 這段訪談非常有意思。

I think we could talk for another hour,

我想我們甚至還能再聊一小時，

but thank you so much for being here.

非常謝謝你來參與。

DS: Thank you, Corey. Thank you, Whitney. Thank you, everybody.

丹：謝謝你，柯莉。 謝謝你，惠妮。謝謝大家。

WPR: Thank you, Dan. Thank you.

惠：謝謝你，丹。謝謝你。