TikTok CEO Shou Chew on Its Future — and What Makes Its Algorithm Different | Live at TED2023

Chris Anderson: It's very nice to have you here.

翻译人员: Zheng Jia 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

克里斯 · 安德森（Chris Anderson）： 很高兴能邀请到您。

Let's see.

我们来聊聊吧。

First of all, congratulations.

首先，恭喜你。

You really pulled off something remarkable on that grilling,

你在那场质询中表现得确实很了不起，

you achieved something that very few people do,

能做到这个的人寥寥无几——

which was, you pulled off a kind of, a bipartisan consensus in US politics.

你竟然在美国政治中达成了…… 可以说是一种两党共识。

It was great.

真的很不错。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

The bad news was that that consensus largely seemed to be:

坏消息是这个共识好像基本上是：

"We must ban TikTok."

“我们必须禁止 TikTok。”

So we're going to come to that in a bit.

那我们之后再讨论这个问题，我挺好奇的。

And I'm curious, but before we go there, we need to know about you.

不过在这之前， 我们需要先了解一下你本人。

You seem to me like a remarkable person.

在我看来你是个了不起的人。

I want to know a bit of your story

我想听听你的故事，

and how you came to TikTok in the first place.

还有你一开始是怎么进入 TikTok 的。

Shou Chew: Thank you, Chris.

周受资（Shou Chew）：谢谢你，克里斯。

Before we do that, can I just check, need to know my audience,

在那之前，我能不能先问问—— 我需要了解一下我的观众——

how many of you here use TikTok?

你们这里有多少人用 TikTok？

Oh, thank you.

哦，谢谢。

For those who don’t, the Wi-Fi is free.

那些不用的朋友， 我提醒一下 Wi-Fi 是免费的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: There’s another question, which is,

克里斯：还有一个问题是——

how many of you here have had your lives touched through TikTok,

你们当中有多少人 生活中有受过 TikTok 的影响？

through your kids and other people in your lives?

可能是通过你们的孩子， 或者是生活里的其他人？

SC: Oh, that's great to see.

周：哦，太好了。

CA: It's basically, if you're alive,

克里斯：基本上就是，只要你活着，

you have had some kind of contact with TikTok at this point.

你就或多或少接触过 TikTok。

So tell us about you.

那跟我们聊聊你自己吧。

SC: So my name is Shou, and I’m from Singapore.

周：我的名字叫 Shou， 我来自新加坡。

Roughly 10 years ago,

大概十年前，

I met with two engineers who were building a product.

我见了两位工程师， 他们当时在研究一个产品。

And the idea behind this was to build a product

他们的想法是做这样一个产品——

that recommended content to people not based on who they knew,

它推送的内容不是你已经认识的人。

which was, if you think about it, 10 years ago,

这个东西，你想想，在十年前，

the social graph was all in the rage.

那个时候社交图谱风头正盛。

And the idea was, you know,

而当时的观念是，

your content and the feed that you saw should be based on people that you knew.

所有的内容和投放给你的东西 都应该是基于你已经认识的人。

But 10 years ago,

但是十年前，

these two engineers thought about something different,

这两位工程师有了一些不一样的想法，

which is, instead of showing you --

那就是不再给你看——

instead of showing you people you knew,

不再给你看你认识的人，

why don't we show you content that you liked?

为什么不根据你的喜好来推送内容呢？

And that's sort of the genesis and the birth

这差不多就是

of the early iterations of TikTok.

TikTok 雏形的起源和诞生。

And about five years ago,

之后大概五年前，

with the advent of 4G, short video, mobile phone penetration,

随着 4G 、短视频的出现 和手机在生活中的渗透，

TikTok was born.

TikTok 诞生了。

And a couple of years ago,

然后几年前，

I had the opportunity to run this company,

我有机会管理这个公司，

and it still excites me every single day.

直到现在我还是每一天都为此兴奋。

CA: So I want to dig in a little more into this,

克里斯：这个我想再深入了解一下。

about what was it that made this take-off so explosive?

到底是什么让它能够获得 如此爆炸性的成功呢？

Because the language I hear from people who spent time on it,

因为从在这上面花费时间的人那里， 我听来的描述是，

it's sort of like I mean,

它有点……就是……

it is a different level of addiction to other media out there.

它有一种超脱其他媒体的、 令人上瘾的魔力。

And I don't necessarily mean this in a good way, we'll be coming on to it.

我不是说它一定是积极的， 这个我们等会儿再谈。

There’s good and bad things about this type of addiction.

它有积极和消极的方面。

But it’s the feeling

但是就是那种感受——

that within a couple of days of experience of TikTok,

只要玩了几天 TikTok，

it knows you and it surprises you

它就掌握了你，并且给你带来惊喜，

with things that you didn't know you were going to be interested in,

用的是一些你都不知道 自己会感兴趣的东西，

but you are.

但你就是被吸引了。

How?

怎么做到的？

Is it really just, instead of the social graph --

它是不是真的只是，抛开社交图谱——

What are these algorithms doing?

这些算法到底在做什么？

SC: I think to describe this, to begin to answer your question,

周：我觉得要解释这件事、 要回答你这个问题的话，

we have to talk about the mission of the company.

肯定绕不开公司的使命。

Now the mission is to inspire creativity and to bring joy.

公司的使命是“激发创造，带来愉悦”。

And I think missions for companies like ours [are] really important.

我认为对于我们这样的公司来说， 使命是非常重要的。

Because you have product managers working on the product every single day,

因为产品经理们每天都在研究产品，

and they need to have a North Star, you know,

他们需要一座灯塔，

something to sort of, work towards together.

一个可以为之共同努力的目标。

Now, based on this mission,

那基于这样一个使命，

our vision is to provide three things to our users.

我们的愿景是为我们的用户提供三样东西。

We want to provide a window to discover,

我们想提供一扇发现之窗户——

and I’ll talk about discovery, you talked about this, in a second.

等下我会讲到发现，你刚才也提到了——

We want to give them a canvas to create,

我们想为他们提供一幅创造之画卷，

which is going to be really exciting with new technologies in AI

有了 AI 新技术的加持， 这是非常令人兴奋的，

that are going to help people create new things.

它会帮助大家创造新事物。

And the final thing is bridges for people to connect.

最后是一座连结之桥梁。

So that's sort of the vision of what we're trying to build.

这个差不多就是我们想要去搭建的愿景。

Now what really makes TikTok very unique and very different

而让 TikTok 真正变得独特而与众不同的，

is the whole discovery engine behind it.

是它背后的整个“发现引擎” （Discovery Engine）。

So there are earlier apps that I have a lot of respect for,

有些更早期的应用软件是我非常钦佩的，

but they were built for a different purpose.

不过它们的搭建目的不同。

For example, in the era of search, you know,

比如说在搜索领域，

there was an app that was built for people who wanted to search things

就有为了更便捷的检索 而构建的应用；

so that is more easily found.

And then in the era of social graphs,

在社交图谱领域，

it was about connecting people and their followers.

目的则是连结用户和他们的粉丝。

Now what we have done is that ... based on our machine-learning algorithms,

那我们完成的事情是， 基于我们的机器学习算法，

we're showing people what they liked.

我们给用户看他们喜欢的东西。

And what this means is that we have given the everyday person

也就是说，我们给普通人提供了

a platform to be discovered.

一个让他们能够被看见的平台。

If you have talent, it is very, very easy to get discovered on TikTok.

只要你有才华，那你就 非常非常容易在 TikTok 上被发掘。

And I'll just give you one example of this.

我可以给你举一个例子。

The biggest creator on TikTok is a guy called Khaby.

TikTok 上关注量最大的内容创作者 是一个叫卡比（Khaby）的人。

Khaby was from Senegal,

卡比来自塞内加尔，

he lives in Italy, he was a factory worker.

他住在意大利，曾经是一个工厂工人。

He, for the longest time, didn't even speak in any of his videos.

很长一段时间里，你知道， 他甚至没有在他的任何一个视频中讲过话。

But what he did was he had talent.

但他所做的就是 展示自己拥有的才华。

He was funny, he had a good expression,

他很搞笑，表情特别到位，

he had creativity, so he kept posting.

他也很有创造力， 所以能持续不断地发布视频。

And today he has 160 million followers on our platform.

现在他在我们的平台上有 1.6 亿粉丝。

So every single day we hear stories like that,

所以每一天我们都能听到类似的故事，

businesses, people with talent.

像这样有才华的企业和个人。

And I think it's very freeing to have a platform

我认为这样一个平台是非常自由开放的。

where, as long as you have talent, you're going to be heard

在这里，只要有才华， 你就能被听见，

and you have the chance to succeed.

你就有机会成功。

And that's what we're providing to our users.

这就是我们给用户提供的东西。

CA: So this is the amazing thing to me.

克：那在我看来神奇的事情是，

Like, most of us have grown up with, say, network television,

就像我们大多数人都是—— 比如说——看着网络电视中长大的。

where, for decades you've had thousands of brilliant, creative people

几十年来我们有成千上万 才华横溢、富有创造力的人，

toiling in the trenches,

他们埋头苦干，

trying to imagine stuff that will be amazing for an audience.

尽力去构想能够惊艳观众的内容。

And none of them ever remotely came up with anything

但他们中却没有一个人 或曾遥遥领先地想出任何、

that looked like many of your creators.

现在你的许多创作者 做出来的类似的内容。

So these algorithms,

所以这些算法，

just by observing people's behavior and what they look like,

只是通过观察人们的行为 和他们看起来喜欢什么，

have discovered things that thousands of brilliant humans never discovered.

就能发现成千上万才华横溢的人类 从未发现的事情。

Tell me some of the things that it is looking at.

跟我讲几个它关注的东西吧。

So obvious things, like if someone presses like

就说最显而易见的，比如说如果一个人点赞、

or stays on a video for a long time,

或者长时间观看一个视频，

that gives you a clue, "more like that."

这就给了你一个线索——“他更喜欢这个”。

But is it subject matter?

但是这个算是杀手锏吗？

What are the array of things

你们发现的那些、

that you have noticed that you can actually track

真正可以去追踪、并获得 有用线索的这一系列东西，

that provide useful clues?

它们究竟是什么？

SC: I'm going to simplify this a lot,

周：我会尽可能简单地来解释，

but the machine learning, the recommendation algorithm

但是机器学习、推荐算法，

is really just math.

其实就是数学而已。

So, for example, if you liked videos one, two, three and four,

比如说，如果你喜欢视频一、二、三和四，

and I like videos one, two, three and five,

而我喜欢视频一、二、三和五。

maybe he liked videos one, two, three and six.

然后可能他喜欢视频一、二、三和六。

Now what's going to happen is,

那么会发生的事情就是，

because we like one, two, three at the same time,

因为我们都喜欢一、二、三，

he's going to be shown four, five, six, and so are we.

所以视频四、五、六会被推送给他， 也会推送给我们。

And you can think about this repeated at scale in real time

你可以想想它被实时地、大规模地重复，

across more than a billion people.

在超过十亿的人群中。

That's basically what it is, it's math.

这个算法基本上就是这样， 它就是数学。

And of course, you know,

当然你知道，

AI and machine learning has allowed this to be done

AI 和机器学习让这种算法

at a very, very big scale.

能够以非常非常大的规模运行。

And what we have seen, the result of this,

而我们所看到的、其结果是，

is that it learns the interest signals

它能非常迅速地学习

that people exhibit very quickly

人们表现出的兴趣信号（Interest Signal），

and shows you content that's really relevant for you

然后极其快速地向你展示

in a very quick way.

与你真正相关的内容。

CA: So it's a form of collaborative filtering, from what you're saying.

克：所以从你刚刚说的内容来看， 它是一种协同过滤（Collaborative Filtering）。

The theory behind it is that these humans are weird people,

它背后的理论是， 这些人类都很古怪，

we don't really know what they're interested in,

我们不太知道他们感兴趣的是什么；

but if we see that one human is interested,

但是如果我们发现一个人对此感兴趣，

with an overlap of someone else, chances are, you know,

加上另一个人也感兴趣， 那就很有可能——就是说——

you could make use of the other pieces

你可以利用其他

that are in that overlapped human's repertoire to feed them,

喜好相同的人的“收藏歌单”， 拿出里面的歌来投放给他们，

and they'll be surprised.

然后他们就会为之惊喜。

But the reason they like it is because their pal also liked it.

但其实他们喜欢它的原因是， 他们的同道中人也喜欢它。

SC: It's pattern recognition based on your interest signals.

周：这是基于你兴趣信号的 模式识别（Pattern Recognition）。

And I think the other thing here

我觉得这里还有一点是，

is that we don't actually ask you 20 questions

我们没有真的叫你回答 20 个问题，

on whether you like a piece of content, you know, what are your interests,

我们没有问你是否喜欢这个内容， 或者说问你感兴趣的是什么，

我们不这样做。

we don't do that.

我们是把这个过程有机地 融合到应用软件的使用中了。

We built that experience organically into the app experience.

So you are voting with your thumbs by watching a video,

所以你看一个视频的时候， 实际上就是在用大拇指投票——

by swiping it, by liking it, by sharing it,

通过划动、点赞、分享，

you are basically exhibiting interest signals.

你就是在展示自己的兴趣信号。

And what it does mathematically is to take those signals,

而它在数学上所做的工作 就是接受这些信号，

put it in a formula and then matches it through pattern recognition.

把它放进一个公式里， 然后通过模式识别进行匹配。

That's basically the idea behind it.

这基本上就是它背后的逻辑。

CA: I mean, lots of start-ups have tried to use these types of techniques.

克：我是说，很多初创公司 都尝试过使用这种科技。

I'm wondering what else played a role early on?

我想知道还有什么在初期发挥了作用？

I mean, how big a deal was it,

我是说，这件事起到了多大的作用呢？——

that from the get-go you were optimizing for smartphones

从一开始你们就针对智能手机进行优化，

so that videos were shot in portrait format

让视频能够以竖屏形式拍摄，

and they were short.

并且它们时长很短。

Was that an early distinguishing thing that mattered?

这个早期的决定是不是 也产生了重要的影响呢？

SC: I think we were the first to really try this at scale.

周：我想我们是最早真正尝试这个的公司。

You know, the recommendation algorithm is a very important reason

你知道的，这个平台是为什么 如此受到这么多人的欢迎，

as to why the platform is so popular among so many people.

推荐算法是一个非常重要的因素。

But beyond that, you know, you mentioned the format itself.

但是除此之外，你提到了视频本身的形式。

So we talked about the vision of the company,

我们刚刚讲过公司的愿景，

which is to have a window to discover.

也就是提供一扇发现之窗。

And if you just open the app for the first time,

如果你第一次打开这个应用，

you'll see that it takes up your whole screen.

你会发现它占据了你的整个屏幕。

So that's the window that we want.

这就是我们想要的窗口。

You can imagine a lot of people using that window

你可以想象很多人利用这个窗口，

to discover new things in their lives.

去发现他们生活中的新事物。

Then, you know, through this recommendation algorithm,

然后通过推荐算法，

we have found that it connects people together.

我们发现它能够将人们连结在一起，

People find communities,

帮助他们找到自己的社群。

and I've heard so many stories of people who have found their communities

我听说了好多这样的故事， 人们通过他们发布的内容，

because of the content that they're posting.

找到了属于他们的社群。

Now, I'll give you an example.

现在我给你举个例子。

I was in DC recently, and I met with a bunch of creators.

我最近在华盛顿， 和一群创作者见了面。

CA: I heard.

克：我听说了。

(Laughter)

是啊。 （笑声）

SC: One of them was sitting next to me at a dinner,

周：吃晚饭的时候， 他们其中一个人坐在我旁边，

his name is Samuel.

他叫塞缪尔（Samuel）。

He runs a restaurant in Phoenix, Arizona, and it's a taco restaurant.

他在亚利桑那州凤凰城开了一家餐厅， 那是一家墨西哥塔可（Taco）餐厅。

He told me he has never done this before, first venture.

他告诉我，他之前从来没有做过这种事， 这是他的第一次冒险。

He started posting all this content on TikTok,

他开始在 TikTok 上发布这些内容。

and I saw his content,

然后我看了他创作的内容，

I was hungry after looking at it, it's great content.

看完之后立刻饿了， 内容就是非常好。

And he's generated so much interest in his business,

然后他对自己的业务产生了特别大的兴趣，

that last year he made something like a million dollars in revenue

去年他差不多有一百万美元的收入，

just via TikTok.

就只是通过 TikTok，

One restaurant.

只是一家餐厅。

And again and again, I hear these stories,

然后我听到一个又一个这样的故事，

you know, by connecting people together,

通过把人们连结在一起，

by giving people the window to discover,

通过提供一扇发现之窗，

we have given many small businesses and many people, your common person,

我们让许多小型企业和许多普通人

a voice that they will never otherwise have.

一个绝无仅有的发声机会。

And I think that's the power of the platform.

我觉得这就是这个平台的力量。

CA: So you definitely have identified early

克：所以你们肯定早就察觉到

just how we're social creatures, we need affirmation.

我们是怎样作为社会的生物存在， 我们需要情感的支撑。

I've heard a story,

我听说了一个故事，

and you can tell me whether true or not,

你可以告诉我它是真是假。

that one of the keys to your early liftoff

你在早期一鸣惊人的其中一个关键是，

was that you wanted to persuade creators who were trying out TikTok

你想说服试用 TikTok 的创作者，

that this was a platform where they would get response,

这是一个会给他们回应的平台。

early on, when you're trying to grow something,

一开始你们试图培养用户的时候，

the numbers aren't there for response.

数据并不好，因此没有太多回应。

So you had the brilliant idea of goosing those numbers a bit,

然后你就想出了一个很聪明的点子， 把那些数字弄得乱一点，

basically finding ways to give people, you know,

基本上就是找点办法，

a bigger sense of like, more likes,

给大家营造一个点赞数更多、

more engagement than was actually the case,

参与度更高的印象，

by using AI agents somehow in the process.

这个过程用 AI 行为体来完成。

Is that a brilliant idea, or is that just a myth?

这是你的金点子吗？ 还是说只是个传言？

SC: I would describe it in a different way.

周：我的讲法会不太一样。

So there are other platforms that exist before TikTok.

在 TikTok 之前已经有很多其他平台了。

And if you think about those platforms,

你想想在这些平台上，

you sort of have to be famous already in order to get followers.

如果想要得到粉丝， 你基本上必须是已经很有名气了。

Because the way it’s built is that people come and follow people.

因为这些平台构建的方式就是 用户登录然后直接关注。

And if you aren't already famous,

如果你不是已经为人所知，

the chances that you get discovered are very, very low.

那你被发现的概率就微乎其微。

Now, what we have done, again,

那我们做的就是——之前说过——

because of the difference in the way we're recommending content,

因为我们用一种不同的方式进行内容推送，

is that we have given anyone,

我们给任何人、

any single person with enough talent a stage to be able to be discovered.

任何一个有足够才华的人， 提供了一个能够被发现的平台。

And I think that actually is the single, probably the most important thing

而且我觉得这其实是唯一的、 可能也是最重要的一点，

contributing to the growth of the platform.

是它带来了平台用户的增长。

And again and again, you will hear stories from people who use the platform,

然后一次又一次地， 从平台用户口中、

who post regularly on it,

从定期发布视频的创作者口中， 你会听到这样的故事：

that if they have something they want to say,

如果他们有什么想表达的东西，

the platform gives them the chance and the stage

那这个平台就给了他们机会和舞台，

to connect with their audience

让他们得以与他们的观众产生连结，

in a way that I think no other product in the past has ever offered them.

以一种——我觉得是—— 过去其他任何产品都无法提供的方式。

CA: So I'm just trying to play back what you said there.

克：我想再提一下你刚才说的那句话。

You said you were describing a different way what I said.

你说你是在用另一种方式 描述我说的故事。

Is it then the case that like, to give someone a decent chance,

那是不是这样—— 比如说，为了给那些富有才华、

someone who's brilliant but doesn't come with any followers initially,

但刚开始粉丝不多的人一个像样的机会，

that you've got some technique to identify talent

你用了一些技术去辨贤识才，

and that you will almost encourage them,

然后你几乎是会去鼓励他们，

you will give them some kind of, you know,

你会给他们某种——比如说——

artificially increase the number of followers or likes

人为地增加粉丝或者点赞数，

or whatever that they have,

或者别的什么数据，

so that others are encouraged to go,

这样其他人就会被吸引过去，

"Wow, there's something there."

“哇，这儿有点东西。”

Like it's this idea of critical mass that kind of, every entrepreneur,

这就像几乎每个企业家、

every party planner kind of knows about of

每个派对策划师都知道的 临界大众（Critical Mass）——

"No, no, this is the hot place in town, everyone come,"

“别走别走，这里城中旺铺， 走过路过都来看看，”

and that that is how you actually gain critical mass?

这就是你达到临界大众的方式吗？

SC: We want to make sure that every person who posts a video

周：我们想确认每个发布视频的人

is given an equal chance to be able to have some audience to begin with.

都能平等地拥有一些起始观众。

But this idea that you are maybe alluding to,

但是我们可以操控人们喜欢上某样东西——

that we can get people to like something,

你可能是在暗示这个意思——

it doesn't really work like that.

它实际上不是这样操作的。

CA: Could you get AI agents to like something?

克里斯：你能让 AI 行为体喜欢上某样东西吗？

Could you seed the network with extra AI agents that could kind of, you know,

你会不会用额外的 AI 行为体作为网络种子，

give someone early encouragement?

给用户一些早期创作激励？

SC: Ultimately, what the machine does is it recognizes people's interests.

周：从根本上来说，机器做的是 识别人们的兴趣点。

So if you post something that's not interesting to a lot of people,

所以如果你发布的内容 对很多人来说没什么意思，

even if you gave it a lot of exposure,

那即使你给它很多曝光机会，

you're not going to get the virality that you want.

也得不到你想要的走红。

So it's a lot of ...

所以这是很多……

There is no push here.

这里面不存在强迫。

It's not like you can go and push something,

它不是说你可以强迫什么东西——

because I like Chris, I'm going to push your content,

“因为我喜欢克里斯， 所以我要强推你的内容，”

it doesn't work like that.

它不是这样运作的。

You've got to have a message that resonates with people,

你必须要发布能引起共鸣的信息，

and if it does,

如果它确实能引起共鸣，

then it will automatically just have the virality itself.

那么就会自然而然地走红。

That's the beauty of user-generated content.

这就是用户生成内容的魅力所在。

It's not something that can be engineered or over-thought.

它不是可以被设计出来、 或者越俎代庖地思考出来的。

It really is something that has to resonate with the audience.

它要真的让观众产生共鸣才行。

And if it does, then it goes viral.

如果它产生了，它就会病毒式地传播开来。

CA: Speaking privately with an investor who knows your company quite well,

克：我和一位很了解你们公司的投资人 私下交流过，

who said that actually the level of sophistication

他说你们这个算法的复杂程度

of the algorithms you have going

is just another order of magnitude

其实是竞争平台的另一个数量级——

to what competitors like, you know, Facebook or YouTube have going.

像 Facebook 和 YouTube 那样的。

Is that just hype or do you really believe you --

这个是炒作吗？还是你们确信——

like, how complex are these algorithms?

就是说这些算法究竟有多复杂？

SC: Well, I think in terms of complexity,

周：嗯，我认为从复杂程度上来说，

there are many companies who have a lot of resources

有很多公司都有很多资源，

and a lot of talent.

很多人才。

They will figure out even the most complex algorithms.

他们能研究出最最复杂的算法。

I think what is very different is your mission of your company,

我觉得我们最大的不同之处 在于公司的使命，

how you started the company.

在于公司的出发点。

Like I said, you know, we started with this idea

就像我说的，我们最初的想法是——

that this was the main use case.

这就是我们的主要用例（Use Case）。

The most important use case is you come and you get to see recommended content.

最重要的用例就是你进入这个平台， 然后看到推荐内容。

Now for some other apps out there,

那对于其他的很多应用软件来说，

they are very significant and have a lot of users,

它们的地位很重要，用户数量很大，

they are built for a different original purpose.

它们的构建出发点不同。

And if you are built for something different,

如果你的构建目的不同，

then your users are used to that

那么你的用户就会习惯于此，

because the community comes in and they expect that sort of experience.

因为社群进来，然后他们会有那样的预期。

So I think the pivot away from that

所以我认为我们与众不同的核心

is not really just a matter of engineering and algorithms,

其实不是工程和算法，

it’s a matter of what your company is built to begin with.

而是公司构建的出发点。

Which is why I started this by saying you need to have a vision,

这就是为什么我开头就说你需要一个愿景，

you need to have a mission, and that's the North Star.

你需要有一个使命，那就是你的灯塔。

You can't just shift it halfway.

你不能中途偏离航线。

CA: Right.

克：没错。

And is it fair to say

可以说

that because your start point has been interest algorithms

正是因为你的出发点是兴趣算法，

rather than social graph algorithms,

而不是社交图谱算法，

you've been able to avoid some of the worst of the sort of,

你能够避免有些——最糟糕的——

the filter bubbles that have happened in other social media

那些发生在其他社交媒体上的 过滤气泡（Filter Bubble）——

where you have tribes kind of declaring war on each other effectively.

各个群体之间互相宣战，

And so much of the noise and energy is around that.

围绕这种事吵吵嚷嚷， 消耗大量的精力。

Do you believe that you've largely avoided that on TikTok?

你觉得你们是不是基本上 在 TikTok 避免了这种情况？

SC: The diversity of content that our users see is very key.

周：我们的用户 看到的内容多样性非常关键。

You know, in order for the discovery -- the mission is to discover --

你知道，为了发现——我们的使命是发现——

sorry, the vision is to discover.

不好意思，愿景是发现——

So in order to facilitate that,

为了实现这个愿景，

it is very important to us

用户看到的内容的多样性

that what the users see is a diversity of content.

对我们来说就非常重要。

Now, generally speaking, you know,

那么总体来说，

there are certain issues that you mentioned

有几个你提到的问题

that the industry faces, you know.

是这个行业正在面临的。

There are some bad actors who come on the internet,

有一些不良分子进入网络，

they post bad content.

发布不良内容。

Now our approach is that we have very clear community guidelines.

我们应对的方法是 我们有非常明确的社区准则。

We're very transparent about what is allowed

对于在平台上允许和禁止做的事情，

and what is not allowed on our platform.

我们非常透明。

No executives make any ad hoc decisions.

没有管理人员会做出例外的判定。

And based on that,

基于这一点，

we have built a team that is tens of thousands of people plus machines

我们组建了一个团队， 其中包括成千上万的人力加上机器，

in order to identify content that is bad

就是为了识别不良内容，

and actively and proactively remove it from the platform.

然后积极主动地将它们从平台上移除。

CA: Talk about what some of those key guidelines are.

克：说说主要的准则都有哪些吧。

SC: We have it published on our website.

周：我们发布在我们的网站上了。

In March, we just iterated a new version to make it more readable.

我们在三月刚刚升级了新版本， 把它变得更加容易阅读。

So there are many things like, for example, no pornography,

有很多东西，比如说，禁止色情，

clearly no child sexual abuse material and other bad things,

当然还有禁止儿童性虐待内容 和其他不好的东西，

no violence, for example.

例如禁止暴力。

We also make it clear that it's a differentiated experience

我们也明确了它是差异化用户体验。

if you're below 18 years old.

如果你不到 18 岁，

So if you're below 18 years old, for example,

比如说如果你不到 18 岁，

your entire app experience is actually more restricted.

你的整个软件使用都会受到更多限制。

We don't allow, as an example,

比如，我们默认不允许

users below 16, by default, to go viral.

年龄低于 16 岁的用户走红，

We don't allow that.

我们不允许它发生。

If you're below 16,

如果你不到 16 岁，

we don’t allow you to use the instant messaging feature in app.

你就不能使用软件中的即时信息功能；

If you’re below 18, we don’t allow you to use the livestreaming features.

如果你不到 18 岁， 我们就不允许你使用直播功能。

And of course, we give parents a whole set of tools

当然，我们也给父母们配备了一整套工具，

to control their teenagers’ experience as well.

让他们也能够控制青少年的用户体验。

CA: How do you know the age of your users?

克：你们是怎么知道用户年龄的呢？

SC: In our industry, we rely mainly on something called age gating,

周：在这个行业中，我们主要依赖 一种叫“年龄门槛”（Age Gating）的东西，

which is when you sign up for the app for the first time

就是当你第一次注册这个软件的时候，

and we ask you for the age.

我们会询问你的年龄。

Now, beyond that,

除此之外，

we also have built tools to go through your public profile for example,

我们也构建了一些浏览 用户公共资料的工具，

when you post a video,

当你发布视频的时候，

we try to match the age that you said with the video that you just posted.

我们会对比你提交的年龄 和你发布的视频。

Now, there are questions of can we do more?

那么问题是我们还能再做点什么吗？

And the question always has, for every company, by the way,

问题永远是——其实对行业里 每个公司都是这样——

in our industry, has to be balanced with privacy.

要如何与隐私保护平衡。

Now, if, for example, we scan the faces of every single user,

比如说，如果我们扫描每个用户的脸，

then we will significantly increase the ability to tell their age.

那我们就能极大地 提高识别他们年龄的能力。

But we will also significantly increase the amount of data

但是这就意味着我们要从你们那里

that we collect on you.

收集多得多的数据。

Now, we don't want to collect data.

现在我们不想收集数据，

We don't want to scan data on your face to collect that.

我们不想扫描你的面部数据。

So that balance has to be maintained,

所以要保持这个平衡，

and it's a challenge that we are working through

这也是我们正在攻克的挑战，

together with industry, together with the regulators as well.

和这个行业一起，和监管者一起。

CA: So look, one thing that is unquestionable

所以说，有一件事是不容置疑的，

is that you have created a platform for literally millions of people

就是你们已经为几百万人创造了一个平台，

who never thought they were going to be a content creator.

而他们从来没有想过 自己能成为内容创作者。

You've given them an audience.

是你们为他们找来观众。

I'd actually like to hear from you one other favorite example

我其实想听听你还有什么最喜欢的、

of someone who TikTok has given an audience to

关于 TikTok 给一个完全的素人

that never had that before.

找到观众的例子。

SC: So when again,

周：之前提过，

when I travel around the world,

当我去到世界各地的时候，

I meet with a whole bunch of creators on our platform.

我见了很多我们平台上的创作者。

I was in South Korea just yesterday, and before that I met with -- yes,

我昨天还在韩国， 在那之前，我见——

before that I met with a bunch of --

对，我见了一群意想不到的的人，

People don't expect, for example, teachers.

比如说老师。

There is an English teacher from Arkansas.

有一位来自阿肯色州的英语老师。

Her name is Claudine, and I met her in person.

她叫克劳丁（Claudine），我亲自见到了她。

She uses our platform to reach out to students.

她用我们的平台来接触学生。

There is another teacher called Chemical Kim.

还有另一位老师叫“化学金”（Chemical Kim）。

And Chemical Kim teaches chemistry.

“化学金”是教化学的。

What she does is she uses our platform

她用我们的平台

to reach out to a much broader student base

接触到了比在教室里接触到的

than she has in her classroom.

广泛得多的学生群体。

And they're both very, very popular.

她们都非常非常受欢迎。

You know, in fact,

实际上，

what we have realized is that STEM content

我们发现在我们的平台上， 理工科（STEM）内容

has over 116 billion views on our platform globally.

在全球有超过 1160 亿的播放量。

And it's so significant --

这个数字太大了——

CA: In a year?

克里斯：一年内吗？

SC: Cumulatively.

周：累计。

CA: [116] billion.

克：1160 亿。

SC: It's so significant, that in the US we have started testing,

周：这个数量太大了， 以至于我们开始在美国测试，

creating a feed just for STEM content.

要建立一个专门做理工科内容的订阅源，

Just for STEM content.

只做理工科。

I’ve been using it for a while, and I learned something new.

我已经用了一段时间，学了一点新知识。

You want to know what it is?

你知道是什么吗？

Apparently if you flip an egg on your tray,

据说如果你给盒子里的鸡蛋翻面，

the egg will last longer.

它就能保存得更久。

It's science,

这是科学，

there’s a whole video on this, I learned this on TikTok.

关于这个有一个完整的视频。 我从 TikTok 上学到的。

You can search for this.

你们可以搜一搜。

CA: You want to know something else about an egg?

克：你想知道关于鸡蛋 还有什么知识吗？

If you put it in just one hand and squeeze it as hard as you can,

如果你用一只手握住它，无论多用力，

it will never break.

都捏不碎它。

SC: Yes, I think I read about that, too.

周：对，我记得我也读到过。

CA: It's not true.

克：这是假的。

(Laughter)

周：我可不确定，我们可以找出来看看。 （笑声）

SC: We can search for it.

我们可以查查看。

CA: But look, here's here's the flip side to all this amazingness.

克里斯：是的，但是你看， 这就是这个精彩世界的另一面。

And honestly, this is the key thing,

而且说实话，这就是关键，

that I want to have an honest, heart-to-heart conversation with you

我想和你进行一场诚恳的、交心的对话。

because it's such an important issue,

因为这个问题太重要了，

this question of human addiction.

这个人类成瘾的问题。

You know, we are ...

你知道，我们是有前额皮质的动物。

animals with a prefrontal cortex.

That's how I think of us.

这是我对我们自身的看法。

We have these addictive instincts that go back millions of years,

我们几百万年来一直保持着 这种容易成瘾的天性，

and we often are in the mode of trying to modulate our own behavior.

我们经常处于一种 试图调节自身行为的模式中。

It turns out that the internet is incredibly good

事实证明互联网极大地 激发了我们的动物细胞，

at activating our animal cells

and getting them so damn excited.

让它们兴奋得不行。

And your company, the company you've built,

而我认为你们公司—— 你们构建的这个公司——

is better at it than any other company on the planet, I think.

比世界上其他任何公司都更擅长这件事。

So what are the risks of this?

那么这件事的风险是什么呢？

I mean, how ...

我是说，怎么……

From a company point of view, for example,

从公司的角度来看，比如说，

it's in your interest to have people on there as long as possible.

让人尽可能长时间地停留在软件里 是你们的利益所在。

So some would say, as a first pass,

所以有人会说，作为第一步，

you want people to be addicted as long as possible.

你是想让他们沉迷越久越好，

That's how advertising money will flow and so forth,

这样就能推动广告资金的流动，

and that's how your creators will be delighted.

就能取悦你们的创作者们。

What is too much?

什么是过量？

SC: I don't actually agree with that.

周：我不同意这个观点。

You know, as a company,

你知道，作为一个公司，

our goal is not to optimize and maximize time spent.

我们的目标不是最大化用户花费的时间。

It is not.

不是的。

In fact, in order to address people spending too much time on our platform,

实际上，为了解决用户 使用平台时间过长的问题，

we have done a number of things.

我们已经做了大量工作。

I was just speaking with some of your colleagues backstage.

我刚刚还在后台跟你的同事聊天。

One of them told me she has encountered this as well.

其中有一个人告诉我她也遇到过。

If you spend too much time on our platform,

如果你在平台上花了太多时间，

we will proactively send you videos to tell you to get off the platform.

我们会主动给你发视频， 督促你下线。

We will.

我们会的。

And depending on the time of the day,

而且这跟使用的时间点也有关，

if it's late at night, it will come sooner.

如果是深夜，它会出现得更快。

We have also built in tools to limit,

我们也在其中嵌入了限制工具，

if you below 18 years old, by default,

如果你不到 18 岁，

we set a 60-minute default time limit.

我们会默认设置 60 分钟的时长限制。

CA: How many?

克：多长时间？

SC: Sixty minutes.

周：60 分钟。

And we've given parents tools and yourself tools,

而且我们已经为父母们和你自己设计了工具，

if you go to settings, you can set your own time limit.

你在设置里面可以设定自己的时长限制。

We've given parents tools so that you can pair,

我们已经给父母提供了工具， 这样你们就可以配对——

for the parents who don't know this, go to settings, family pairing,

那些不知道的父母，你们可以去设置里面， 找到家庭配对，

you can pair your phone with your teenager's phone

你们可以将自己的手机和孩子的手机配对，

and set the time limit.

然后设定时长限制。

And we really encourage parents to have these conversations with their teenagers

而且我们真的鼓励父母们 去和孩子们好好谈谈这些事情，

on what is the right amount of screen time.

关于合理的屏幕使用时长是多少。

I think there’s a healthy relationship that you should have with your screen,

我认为你应该和你的屏幕 建立一个健康的关系，

and as a business, we believe that that balance needs to be met.

作为企业，我们相信这种平衡是必要的。

So it's not true that we just want to maximize time spent.

所以我们并不希望最大化使用时长。

CA: If you were advising parents here

克：要是让你给在场的父母一个建议，

what time they should actually recommend to their teenagers,

他们应该提议孩子们使用多久呢？

what do you think is the right setting?

你觉得合适的设置是多少呢？

SC: Well, 60 minutes,

周：嗯，60 分钟。

we did not come up with it ourselves.

这个不是我们自己想出来的。

So I went to the Digital Wellness Lab at the Boston Children's Hospital,

我去了波士顿儿童医院的数字健康实验室，

and we had this conversation with them.

我们进行了一场交谈。

And 60 minutes was the recommendation that they gave to us,

他们给我们的建议是 60 分钟，

which is why we built this into the app.

所以我们把这个设置进了软件。

So 60 minutes, take it for what it is,

所以 60 分钟，就是这样，

it’s something that we’ve had some discussions of experts.

这是我们和专家讨论的结果。

But I think for all parents here,

但是我觉得对于父母们来说，

it is very important to have these conversations with your teenage children

和孩子们进行沟通是非常重要的，

and help them develop a healthy relationship with screens.

然后帮助他们培养和屏幕之间的健康关系。

I think we live in an age where it's completely inevitable

我认为在我们生活的这个时代， 这是无法避免的，

that we're going to interact with screens and digital content,

我们一定会跟屏幕和电子内容发生互动。

but I think we should develop healthy habits early on in life,

但是我认为，我们应该从小就 培养健康的习惯，

and that's something I would encourage.

这个是我会鼓励的。

CA: Curious to ask the audience,

克：好奇地问一下观众，

which of you who have ever had that video on TikTok appear

你们中有谁曾经碰到过 TikTok 上的那个视频，

saying, “Come off.”

写着“下线”。

OK, I mean ...

好的，我是说……

So maybe a third of the audience seem to be active TikTok users,

那这样看起来，大概三分之一的观众 是 TikTok 的活跃用户，

and about 20 people maybe put their hands up there.

大概 20 个人举了手。

Are you sure that --

你确定——

like, it feels to me like this is a great thing to have,

比如，对我来说它很棒，

but are you ...

但是你会不会……

isn't there always going to be a temptation

不是总会受到一些诱惑吗？

in any given quarter or whatever,

在任何一个部分，

to just push it a bit at the boundary

可能只是突破那么一点界限，

and just dial back a bit on that

然后只是稍微松松绑，

so that you can hit revenue goals, etc?

你就能达到收益目标等等。

Are you saying that this is used scrupulously?

你是说这个是严格执行的吗？

SC: I think, you know, in terms ...

周：我认为，你知道，从——

Even if you think about it from a commercial point of view,

即使从商业角度来思考这个问题，

it is always best when your customers have a very healthy relationship

最理想的情况仍然是你的顾客与你的产品

with your product.

有一个非常健康的关系。

It's always best when it's healthy.

健康永远是最好的状态。

So if you think about very short-term retention, maybe,

所以如果只是考虑非常短期的客户留存， 那也许可以这样。

but that's not the way we think about it.

但我们不是这样想的。

If you think about it from a longer-term perspective,

如果你从长远角度来考虑的话，

what you really want to have is a healthy relationship, you know.

你真正想要的是一个健康的关系。

You don’t want people to develop very unhealthy habits,

你不希望人们养成非常不健康的习惯，

and then at some point they're going to drop it.

那总有一天他们就不用这个产品了。

So I think everything in moderation.

所以我认为一切都要适可而止。

CA: There's a claim out there that in China,

克：有意见说，在中国，

there's a much more rigorous standards imposed on the amount of time

使用时长有更严格的标准，

that children, especially, can spend on the TikTok equivalent of that.

特别是对于儿童在 TikTok 上花费的时间。

SC: That is unfortunately a misconception.

周：很不幸这是个误解。

So that experience that is being mentioned for Douyin,

他们提到的那个模式是在抖音上——

which is a different app,

它是一个不同的应用软件——

is for an under 14-year-old experience.

那是为 14 岁以下的用户设计的。

Now, if you compare that in the United States,

如果和美国类比，

we have an under-13 experience in the US.

我们有 13 岁以下模式。

It's only available in the US, it's not available here in Canada,

它只适用于美国，在加拿大这里不适用。

in Canada, we just don't allow it.

在加拿大，我们直接禁止使用了。

If you look at the under-13 experience in the US,

如果你去看美国的 13 岁以下模式，

it's much more restricted than the under-14 experience in China.

它要比中国 14 岁以下模式的限制多得多。

It's so restrictive,

它的限制非常严格，

that every single piece of content is vetted

以至于每一项内容

by our third-party child safety expert.

都要经过第三方儿童安全专家的审核。

And we don't allow any under-13s in the US to publish,

而且在美国，我们不允许 任何 13 岁以下的用户发布内容，

we don’t allow them to post,

我们不允许他们上传，

and we don't allow them to use a lot of features.

也禁用了很多功能。

So I think that that report, I've seen that report too,

所以我认为那篇报道—— 我也看了那篇报道——

it's not doing a fair comparison.

并不是在做一个公平的比较。

CA: What do you make of this issue?

克：你对这个问题怎么看？

You know, you've got these millions of content creators

你知道，你们已经有了几百万内容创作者，

and all of them, in a sense, are in a race for attention,

而从某种意义上来说， 他们所有人都在争夺关注，

and that race can pull them in certain directions.

这种竞争会把他们推向特定的方向。

So, for example, teenage girls on TikTok,

比如说，TikTok 上的青少年女孩，

sometimes people worry that, to win attention,

有时候人们会担心，为了赢得关注，

they've discovered that by being more sexual

她们发现通过发布性相关内容，

that they can gain extra viewers.

能获得更多播放量。

Is this a concern?

这会是一个问题吗？

Is there anything you can do about this?

你们有什么对策吗？

SC: We address this in our community guidelines as well.

周：这个问题也在我们的社区准则里解答了。

You know, if you look at sort of the sexualized content on our guidelines,

你知道，如果你看一下我们的准则里 关于性相关内容的描述，

if you’re below a certain age,

如果你不到某个年龄，

you know, for certain themes that are mature,

我们可以把某些过于成熟的内容

we actually remove that from your experience.

从你的模式中剔除。

Again, I come back to this,

再说回这个，

you know, we want to have a safe platform.

你知道，我们想搭建一个安全的平台。

In fact, at my congressional hearing,

实际上，在国会听证会上，

I made four commitments to our users and to the politicians in the US.

我对我们的用户和美国的政治家们 做出了四个承诺。

And the first one is that we take safety, especially for teenagers,

第一个就是，我们会极其重视安全——

extremely seriously,

尤其是青少年的安全，

and we will continue to prioritize that.

我们会一直把它放在首位。

You know, I believe that we need to give our teenage users,

我相信我们需要提供给我们的青少年用户、

and our users in general,

以及整个用户群体

a very safe experience,

一个非常安全的体验。

because if we don't do that,

因为如果我们不这样做的话，

then we cannot fulfill --

就不能履行——

the mission is to inspire creativity and to bring joy.

公司的使命是“激发创造，带来愉悦”。

If they don't feel safe, I cannot fulfill my mission.

如果他们觉得不安全， 那我就没法完成我的使命。

So it's all very organic to me as a business

所以对我来说，作为一个企业，

to make sure I do that.

做到这一点是非常自然的。

CA: But in the strange interacting world of human psychology and so forth,

克：但是在人类心理造就的光怪陆离、 彼此牵扯的世界中，

weird memes can take off.

怪诞的梗图可以迅速火爆。

I mean, you had this outbreak a couple years back

我是说几年前你们就曾爆发过这种情况，

with these devious licks where kids were competing with each other

他们用这些狡猾的伎俩， 让孩子们互相竞争，

to do vandalism in schools and, you know,

在学校里搞破坏，

get lots of followers from it.

以此获得很多粉丝。

How on Earth do you battle something like that?

你到底要怎么去抵抗这样的事情呢？

SC: So dangerous challenges are not allowed on our platform.

周：危险挑战在我们的平台上是被禁止的。

If you look at our guidelines, it's violative.

如果你去看看我们的准则， 就会发现这是违例的。

We proactively invest resources to identify them

我们主动地花费资源去识别它们，

and remove them from our platform.

然后把它们从平台上移除。

In fact, if you search for dangerous challenges on our platform today,

实际上，如果你现在从平台上搜索危险挑战，

we will redirect you to a safety resource page.

我们会把你导向一个安全资源页面。

And we actually worked with some creators as well to come up with campaigns.

而且我们其实也和一些创作者 合作发起了活动。

This is another campaign.

这是另外一个活动，

It's the "Stop, Think, Decide Before You Act" campaign

它是“停一停，想一想，三思而后行”活动。

where we work with the creators to produce videos,

我们和创作者一起制作视频，

to explain to people that some things are dangerous,

告诉大家那些事情是危险的，

please don't do it.

请不要做。

And we post these videos actively on our platform as well.

然后我们也积极地 把这些视频发布在平台上，

CA: That's cool.

克：那很酷。

And you've got lots of employees.

而且你们还有很多员工，

I mean, how many employees do you have

我想问你们有多少员工？

who are specifically looking at these content moderation things,

具体都是谁在研究这些内容限制的事情——

or is that the wrong question?

我不知道我问得对不对。

Are they mostly identified by AI initially

还是说它们大多数是先由 AI 识别，

and then you have a group who are overseeing

然后你们有一个团队在监督，

and making the final decision?

并做出最终的决定？

SC: The group is based in Ireland and it's a lot of people,

周：团队在爱尔兰，有很多人，

it's tens of thousands of people.

大概有几万人。

CA: Tens of thousands?

克：几万人？

SC: It's one of the most important cost items on my PnL,

周：这是我的损益表上 最重要的成本项目之一，

and I think it's completely worth it.

而且我觉得它完全值得。

Now, most of the moderation has to be done by machines.

大多数内容调整都是用机器做的。

The machines are good, they're quite good,

机器很好，它们相当好。

but they're not as good as, you know,

但是你知道，它们还是比不上……

they're not perfect at this point.

它们在这一点上还不够完美。

So you have to complement them with a lot of human beings today.

所以现在你不得不 用很多人力去完成这件事。

And I think, by the way, a lot of the progress in AI in general

另外我认为，整个 AI 技术的巨大进步，

is making that kind of content moderation capabilities a lot better.

正在加强这种内容调整能力。

So we're going to get more precise.

所以我们得到的精准性会更高，

You know, we’re going to get more specific.

会更具体。

And it’s going to be able to handle larger scale.

而且它会拥有大规模处理的能力，

And that's something I think that I'm personally looking forward to.

这是我个人非常期待的。

CA: What about this perceived huge downside

克：还有一个普遍认识到的大问题——

of use of, certainly Instagram, I think TikTok as well.

当然主要指 Instagram， 但是我认为 TikTok 也是这样。

What people worry that you are amplifying insecurities,

人们担心你们在加剧不安，

especially of teenagers

特别是对青少年来说，

and perhaps especially of teenage girls.

可能尤其是青春期少女。

They see these amazing people on there doing amazing things,

他们看了平台上这些出色的人与事物，

they feel inadequate,

会感到自卑，

there's all these reported cases of depression, insecurity,

有很多关于抑郁、不安、

suicide and so forth.

甚至自杀等等的案例报道，

SC: I take this extremely seriously.

周：我非常重视这个问题。

So in our guidelines,

在我们的准则中，

for certain themes that we think are mature and not suitable for teenagers,

对于青少年来说过于成熟和不合适的内容，

we actually proactively remove it from their experience.

其实我们都主动从用户体验中移除了。

At the same time, if you search certain terms,

同时，如果你搜索特定的字词，

we will make sure that you get redirected to a resource safety page.

我们会确保把你导向一个资源安全页面。

Now we are always working with experts to understand some of these new trends

我们一直在与专家合作研究

that could emerge

这些可能出现的新趋势，

and proactively try to manage them, if that makes sense.

然后如果行得通的话，主动地去干预它们。

Now, this is a problem that predates us,

这是一个比我们公司更古老的问题，

that predates TikTok.

它先于 TikTok 就存在了，

It actually predates the internet.

它其实在互联网出现之前就存在了。

But it's our responsibility to make sure

但是我们有责任确保

that we invest enough to understand and to address the concerns,

我们付出了足够的努力 去理解和解决这些问题，

to keep the experience as safe as possible

最大程度地保证他们用户体验的安全性，

for as many people as possible.

照顾到尽可能多的人。

CA: Now, in Congress,

克：那么，在国会上，

the main concern seemed to be not so much what we've talked about,

最主要的担忧好像不太是 我们刚刚讲的那些，

but data, the data of users,

而是数据——用户数据，

the fact that you're owned by ByteDance, Chinese company,

是你们属于字节跳动——一个中国公司，

and the concern that at any moment

他们担心中国政府可能随时会 要求拿到那些收据。

Chinese government might require or ask for data.

And in fact, there have been instances

而且事实上，已经有一些这样的例子了，

where, I think you've confirmed,

我想你们已经确认，

that some data of journalists on the platform

平台上一些记者的用户数据，

was made available to ByteDance's engineers

被字节跳动的工程师获取，

and from there, who knows what.

然后从那里——谁知道会怎么样呢？

Now, your response to this was to have this Project Texas,

你对这件事的回应是 “德克萨斯计划”（Project Texas）——

where you're moving data to be controlled by Oracle here in the US.

把数据转移到美国这边， 由甲骨文公司（Oracle）控制，

Can you talk about that project and why, if you believe it so,

你能讲讲这个计划吗？ 还有为什么——如果你认为是这样的话——

why we should not worry so much about this issue?

为什么我们不用担心这个问题？

SC: I will say a couple of things about this, if you don't mind.

周：如果你不介意的话， 关于这个我有好几点要说。

The first thing I would say is that the internet is built

首先，我要说 互联网是基于全球互通性搭建的。

on global interoperability,

and we are not the only company that relies on the global talent pool

我们不是唯一一家依赖全球人才的公司，

to make our products as good as possible.

我们要让产品尽可能好。

Technology is a very collaborative effort.

科技是非常需要协作努力的，

I think many people here would say the same thing.

我觉得很多人都会这么说。

So we are not the first company to have engineers in all countries,

所以我们不是第一家 从世界各地——包括中国——

including in China.

雇佣工程师的公司，

We're not the first one.

我们不是第一家。

Now, I understand some of these concerns.

那我理解其中一些担忧。

You know, the data access by employees is not data accessed by government.

你要知道，工程师能获取的数据， 并不是政府获取的数据。

This is very different, and there’s a clear difference in this.

这是非常不同的， 而且这二者之间有明确的区别。

But we hear the concerns that are raised in the United States.

但是我们听到了美国提出的担忧，

We did not try to avoid discussing.

我们没有要回避讨论。

We did not try to argue our way out of it.

我们没有试图通过辩驳来解决问题，

What we did was we built an unprecedented project

我们的方式是构建一个史无前例的计划，

where we localize American data to be stored on American soil

将美国的数据本地化，储存在美国本土，

by an American company overseen by American personnel.

由美国公司负责，受美国人的监督。

So this kind of protection for American data

这种对美国数据的保护，

is beyond what any other company in our industry has ever done.

是我们行业中任何其他公司都没有做到的。

Well, money is not the only issue here,

钱是这其中唯一的问题，

but it's very expensive to build something like that.

搭建这种东西非常昂贵。

And more importantly, you know,

更重要的是，

we are basically localizing data in a way that no other company has done.

我们是在用没有其他公司用过的办法， 将数据本地化。

So we need to be very careful that whilst we are pursuing

所以当我们在美国追求所谓的数字主权时， 我们需要非常小心。

what we call digital sovereignty in the US

and we are also doing a version of this in Europe,

我们也在欧洲做了一个 避免互联网巴尔干化的版本。

that we don't balkanize the internet.

Now we are the first to do it.

我们是第一个做这件事的公司。

And I expect that, you know,

我希望，你知道，

other companies are probably looking at this

其他公司或许会看到，

and trying to figure out how you balance between protecting, protected data,

然后试着研究出 在数据保护中找到平衡的方法，

you know, to make sure that everybody feels secure about it

以此确保每个人的安全感，

while at the same time allowing for interoperability

同时又能继续保持互通性，

to continue to happen,

because that's what makes technology and the internet so great.

因为是它让科技和互联网如此伟大。

So that's something that we are doing.

这个是我们正在做的事情。

CA: How far are you along that journey with Project Texas?

克：你们的“德克萨斯计划”目前走了多远？

SC: We are very, very far along today.

周：我们现在已经走了很远很远了。

CA: When will there be a clear you know,

克：什么时候会有一个明确的——

here it is, it’s done, it’s firewalled, this data is protected?

类似于——行了，完成了， 防火墙建起来了，数据保护好了。

SC: Today, by default, all new US data

周：默认情况下，现在所有新的美国数据

is already stored in the Oracle cloud infrastructure.

已经储存在甲骨文公司的云端基础架构里了。

So it's in this protected US environment that we talked about in the United States.

所以它是在这个受保护的美国环境下， 像我们之前在美国说过的那样。

We still have some legacy data to delete in our own servers in Virginia

还有一些储存在我们弗吉尼亚 和新加坡服务器中的旧数据需要删除。

and in Singapore.

Our data has never been stored in China, by the way.

顺便说一下，我们的数据从未在中国储存过。

That deletion is a very big engineering effort.

这种删除是一项非常大的工程。

So as we said, as I said at the hearing,

所以像我们说过的那样—— 像我在听证会上说的那样——

it's going to take us a while to delete them,

这是需要一段时间的。

but I expect it to be done this year.

但是我预计今年年底可以完成。

CA: How much power do you have

克：你有多大的权力

over your own ability to control certain things?

去控制某些事情？

So, for example, suppose that, for whatever reason,

比如说，假设——不管什么原因——

the Chinese government was to look at an upcoming US election and say,

中国政府看着即将到来的美国大选，

"You know what, we would like this party to win," let's say,

说“你知道吗，我们希望这个党赢，” ——比如说——

or "We would like civil war to break out" or whatever.

或者“我们希望内战爆发”或者别的什么。

How ...

要怎么……

"And we could do this

“我们可以通过

by amplifying the content of certain troublemaking, disturbing people,

放大某些惹是生非的内容，

causing uncertainty, spreading misinformation," etc.

制造不安局面，传播错误信息，”等等。

If you were required via ByteDance to do this,

如果你被字节跳动要求做这个，

like, first of all, is there a pathway where theoretically that is possible?

比如，首先， 这个在理论上是有途径发生的吗？

What's your personal line in the sand on this?

你的个人底线是什么？

SC: So during the congressional hearing,

周：在国会听证会上，

I made four commitments,

我做出了四项承诺。

we talked about the first one, which is safety.

我们刚才讲了第一个——安全。

The third one is to keep TikTok a place of freedom of expression.

那第三个承诺就是保证 TikTok 是一个言论自由的平台。

By the way, if you go on TikTok today,

顺便如果你现在去 TikTok，

you can search for anything you want,

你可以搜索任何东西，

as long as it doesn't violate our community guidelines.

只要它不违反我们的社区准则。

And to keep it free from any government manipulation.

其次为了让它不受到任何政府操纵，

And the fourth one is transparency and third-party monitoring.

第四项承诺是透明性和第三方监管。

So the way we are trying to address this concern

我们解决这种担忧的方式

is an unprecedented amount of transparency.

是前所未有的透明度。

What do I mean by this?

我的意思是什么呢？

We're actually allowing third-party reviewers

我们其实允许第三方审核人

to come in and review our source code.

来审核我们的源代码。

I don't know any other company that does this, by the way.

顺便我没听说过任何其他这样做的公司，

Because everything, as you know, is driven by code.

因为所有东西，你知道的，都是代码控制的。

So to allow someone else to review the source code

所以允许其他人来审核源代码，

is to give this a significant amount of transparency

是给它极大的透明度，

to ensure that the scenarios that you described

以此确保你说的那种、

that are highly hypothetical, cannot happen on our platform.

高度假想化的情形不会发生在我们的平台上。

Now, at the same time,

同时，

we are releasing more research tools for researchers

我们正在发布更多研究工具，

so that they can study the output.

以便研究者们研究输出端。

So the source code is the input.

刚才说的源代码是输入端，

We are also allowing researchers to study the output,

现在我们也允许研究者去研究输出端，

which is the content on our platform.

也就是我们平台上的内容。

I think the easiest way to sort of fend this off is transparency.

我认为要防范这个， 最简单的方式就是透明性。

You know, we give people access to monitor us,

我们把自己开放给大家监管，

and we just make it very, very transparent.

我们让它变得非常非常透明，

And that's our approach to the problem.

这就是我们针对平台的处理方式。

CA: So you will say directly to this group

克：所以你能直接对他们说，

that the scenario I talked about,

我刚才说的那种情形——

of theoretical Chinese government interference in an American election,

理论上中国政府对美国大选的介入——

you can say that will not happen?

你能说它不会发生吗？

SC: I can say that we are building all the tools

周：我能说我们在搭建一切工具，

to prevent any of these actions from happening.

去防止任何这些行为的发生。

And I'm very confident that with an unprecedented amount of transparency

而且我非常有信心， 我们赋予平台的这种史无前例的透明度

that we're giving on the platform,

we can reduce this risk to as low as zero as possible.

可以尽可能地将这种风险降低到零。

CA: To as low as zero as possible.

克：尽可能降低到零。

SC: To as close to zero as possible.

周：尽可能——接近零。

CA: As close to zero as possible.

克里斯：尽可能接近零。

That's fairly reassuring.

这相当令人安心了。

Fairly.

相当地。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I mean, how would the world know?

我是说，大家要怎么知道呢？

If you discovered this or you thought you had to do it,

如果你发现了， 或者你觉得不得不做，

is this a line in the sand for you?

这是你的底线吗？

Like, are you in a situation you would not let the company that you know now

就是说，你的立场是，你不会

and that you are running do this?

让你在管理的这个公司做这些事情吗？

SC: Absolutely.

周：绝对是这样的。

That's the reason why we're letting third parties monitor,

这就是我们让第三方来监管的原因，

because if they find out, you know, they will disclose this.

因为如果他们发现了，他们会曝光的。

We also have transparency reports, by the way,

顺便我们也有透明度报告，

where we talk about a whole bunch of things,

那个上面有我们讲的很多事情——

the content that we remove, you know, that violates our guidelines,

我们移除的违反准则的内容、

government requests.

政府要求。

You know, it's all published online.

这些都是公开在网上的，

All you have to do is search for it.

你要做的只是去搜索它。

CA: So you're super compelling

克：你作为一个首席执行官（CEO），

and likable as a CEO, I have to say.

我得说你非常有说服力，也非常有亲和力。

And I would like to, as we wrap this up,

作为尾声，我想——

I'd like to give you a chance just to paint, like, what's the vision?

我想给你一个机会描绘—— 比如——愿景是什么？

As you look at what TikTok could be,

当你设想 TikTok 的未来——

let's move the clock out, say, five years from now.

我们来打个表，从现在起大概五年，

How should we think about your contribution to our collective future?

我们应该如何期待 你对我们共同未来的贡献?

SC: I think it's still down to the vision that we have.

周：我认为这仍然是 取决于我们现在的愿景。

So in terms of the window of discovery,

作为探索之窗户，

I think there's a huge benefit to the world

我认为它对世界有巨大的好处，

when people can discover new things.

因为人们可以去发现新事物。

You know, people think that TikTok is all about dancing and singing,

你知道，大家觉得 TikTok 全是唱歌跳舞，

and there’s nothing wrong with that, because it’s super fun.

这也没错，因为它们确实都很好玩。

There's still a lot of that,

现在这样的内容仍然很多，

but we're seeing science content, STEM content,

但是我们越来越多地 看到科学内容、理工科内容——

have you about BookTok?

你听说过 BookTok 吗？

It's a viral trend that talks about books

它是很火的一个讨论书籍的社区，

and encourages people to read.

它鼓励大家去阅读。

That BookTok has 120 billion views globally,

这个 BookTok 在全球有 1200 亿浏览量，

120 billion.

1200 亿。

CA: Billion, with a B.

克：亿，是“亿”啊。

SC: People are learning how to cook,

周：大家在学习怎么做饭，

people are learning about science,

学习科学，

people are learning how to golf --

学习打高尔夫——

well, people are watching videos on golfing, I guess.

嗯……我猜他们有在看打高尔夫的视频。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I haven't gotten better by looking at the videos.

我看了还没什么长进。

I think there's a huge, huge opportunity here on discovery

我觉得这里有巨大的发现机会，

and giving the everyday person a voice.

它给普通人一个发声的机会。

If you talk to our creators, you know,

如果你去和我们的创作者交流，

a lot of people will tell you this again and again, that before TikTok,

很多人一遍一遍地会告诉你， 在 TikTok 出现之前，

they would never have been discovered.

他们从来没有被看见过。

And we have given them the platform to do that.

我们给了他们一个被发现的平台。

And it's important to maintain that.

坚守这一点是很重要的。

Then we talk about creation.

然后我们再来讲创造。

You know, there’s all this new technology coming in with AI-generated content

你知道，所有这些 AI 生成内容的新技术

that will help people create even more creative content.

能帮助人们创作出更加有创意的内容。

I think there's going to be a collaboration between,

我认为一场协作将发生在——

and I think there's a speaker who is going to talk about this,

我记得有位演讲者要讲这个——

between people and AI

发生在人类和人工智能之间，

where they can unleash their creativity in a different way.

他们可以用不同的方式释放各自的创造力。

You know, like for example, I'm terrible at drawing personally,

你知道，比如说，我本人绘画很糟糕，

but if I had some AI to help me,

但是如果我有 AI 帮助我，

then maybe I can express myself even better.

那也许我就能更好地表达自己。

Then we talk about bridges to connect

接下来我们就讲到连结之桥梁，

and connecting people and the communities together.

就是把用户以及社群连结在一起。

This could be products, this could be commerce,

这可以是产品，也可以是商业。

five million businesses in the US benefit from TikTok today.

现在美国有五百万企业受益于 TikTok。

I think we can get that number to a much higher number.

我觉得我们还可以把这个数字提高很多。

And of course, if you look around the world, including in Canada,

当然，如果你环顾这个世界，包括加拿大，

that number is going to be massive.

这个数字会变得非常庞大。

So I think these are the biggest opportunities that we have,

所以我认为这些是我们拥有的最主要的机会，

and it's really very exciting.

这真的非常令人兴奋。

CA: So courtesy of your experience in Congress,

克：那鉴于你在国会的经历，

you actually became a bit of a TikTok star yourself, I think.

我觉得其实你自己也成了 TikTok 顶流，

Some of your videos have gone viral.

你的一些视频已经走红了。

You've got your phone with you.

你带着你的手机吧。

Do you want to make a little little TikTok video right now?

要不要现在拍点 TikTok 视频？

Let's do this.

来吧。

SC: If you don't mind ...

周：你不介意的话……

CA: What do you think, should we do this?

克：你们觉得呢？我们要不要拍一个？

SC: We're just going to do a selfie together, how's that?

周：我们就来个自拍吧，怎么样？

So why don't we just say "Hi."

要不我们就说“嗨”。

Hi!

嗨！

Audience: Hi!

观众：嗨！

CA: Hello from TED.

克里斯：TED 向你问好。

SC: All right, thank you, I hope it goes viral.

周：好的，谢谢你们，希望它能火。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: If that one goes viral, I think I've given up on your algorithm, actually.

克：说实话，这要是火了， 我觉得我还是别看好你的算法了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Shou Chew, you're one of the most influential

周受资，你是这个世界上影响力最大的、

and powerful people in the world, whether you know it or not.

最有能量的人之一—— 不管你自己知不知道。

And I really appreciate you coming and sharing your vision.

我真的很感谢你能来分享自己的观点。

I really, really hope the upside of what you're talking about comes about.

我真的真的希望你说的事情 都能有好的结果。

Thank you so much for coming today.

非常感谢你的到来。

SC: Thank you, Chris.

周：谢谢你，克里斯。

CA: It's really interesting.

克：真的很有趣。

(Applause)

（掌声）