TikTok CEO Shou Chew on Its Future — and What Makes Its Algorithm Different | Live at TED2023

Chris Anderson: It's very nice to have you here.

譯者: 至磊Zi Le 黃Ng 審譯者: Helen Chang

克里斯．安德森： 很高興你來到這裡。

Let's see.

我們來看看，首先，恭喜你，

First of all, congratulations.

You really pulled off something remarkable on that grilling,

你在那場審問當中 做了一件很了不起的事，

you achieved something that very few people do,

這件事很少人能做到：

which was, you pulled off a kind of, a bipartisan consensus in US politics.

你讓美國政壇出現跨黨派的共識。

It was great.

這是好事。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

The bad news was that that consensus largely seemed to be:

壞消息是這個共識看起來很像是

"We must ban TikTok."

「我們必須禁用抖音。」

So we're going to come to that in a bit.

我們等一下就會來談這件事。

And I'm curious, but before we go there, we need to know about you.

但在那之前，我對你很好奇， 我們必須了解你。

You seem to me like a remarkable person.

對我而言你看起來很了不起。

I want to know a bit of your story

我想知道你的故事， 還有你起初是如何加入抖音的。

and how you came to TikTok in the first place.

Shou Chew: Thank you, Chris.

周受資：謝謝你，克里斯。

Before we do that, can I just check, need to know my audience,

我可不可以了解一下， 我需要了解我的聽眾，

how many of you here use TikTok?

你們當中有多少人在用抖音？

喔，謝謝你們。

Oh, thank you.

沒在用的人，這裡有免費上網。

For those who don’t, the Wi-Fi is free.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: There’s another question, which is,

克：還有一個問題是，

how many of you here have had your lives touched through TikTok,

你們有多少人的生命曾被抖音觸動，

through your kids and other people in your lives?

被你的兒女和生命中其他人觸動？

SC: Oh, that's great to see.

周：看起來真好。

CA: It's basically, if you're alive,

克：基本上只要你活著，

you have had some kind of contact with TikTok at this point.

此時此刻你一定曾與抖音 有過某種連結。

So tell us about you.

告訴我們有關你的事。

SC: So my name is Shou, and I’m from Singapore.

周：我叫受資，來自新加坡。

Roughly 10 years ago,

大約十年前，

I met with two engineers who were building a product.

我遇到兩位工程師， 他們正在打造一個專案。

And the idea behind this was to build a product

這個專案背後的想法 是打造一樣產品，

that recommended content to people not based on who they knew,

把內容推薦給眾人， 但不是基於他們認識的人。

which was, if you think about it, 10 years ago,

如果你想一想，十年前，

the social graph was all in the rage.

社交圖譜的想法非常流行。

And the idea was, you know,

社交圖譜的想法是

your content and the feed that you saw should be based on people that you knew.

你所看見的內容 應該基於你認識的人。

But 10 years ago,

但十年前，

these two engineers thought about something different,

這兩位工程師的想法有所不同，

which is, instead of showing you --

與其把你認識的人展示給你，

instead of showing you people you knew,

why don't we show you content that you liked?

何不展示你喜歡的內容？

And that's sort of the genesis and the birth

這某種程度上就是 抖音早期版本的起源。

of the early iterations of TikTok.

And about five years ago,

而在大約五年前，

with the advent of 4G, short video, mobile phone penetration,

隨著 4G 、短影音、 手機普及的來臨，

TikTok was born.

抖音誕生了。

And a couple of years ago,

又在幾年前，

I had the opportunity to run this company,

我有機會經營這家公司，

and it still excites me every single day.

直到現在它依然每天振奮我的心。

CA: So I want to dig in a little more into this,

克：我想要了解得更深入一些，

about what was it that made this take-off so explosive?

是什麼讓抖音的飛躍如此振撼？

Because the language I hear from people who spent time on it,

因為我聽那些抖音使用者所說，

it's sort of like I mean,

我覺得在某種程度上，

it is a different level of addiction to other media out there.

那上癮的程度 跟其他社群媒體截然不同。

And I don't necessarily mean this in a good way, we'll be coming on to it.

我不只是在講好的一面， 我們等一下會聊。

There’s good and bad things about this type of addiction.

這種上癮的影響有好有壞。

我是說一種感覺：

But it’s the feeling

不過用了抖音短短幾天，

that within a couple of days of experience of TikTok,

it knows you and it surprises you

抖音就認識並驚豔了你，

with things that you didn't know you were going to be interested in,

推薦你以前不知道 你會有興趣的事情，

but you are.

但你真的有興趣。

How?

這是怎麼做到的？

Is it really just, instead of the social graph --

不靠社交圖譜，

What are these algorithms doing?

這些演算法在做些什麼？

SC: I think to describe this, to begin to answer your question,

周：我認為要開始回答你的問題，

we have to talk about the mission of the company.

我們必須從這家企業的使命談起。

Now the mission is to inspire creativity and to bring joy.

我們的使命是刺激創意並帶來快樂。

And I think missions for companies like ours [are] really important.

我認為對像我們這種企業而言， 使命是非常重要的。

Because you have product managers working on the product every single day,

因為產品經理每天 都在為這些產品工作，

and they need to have a North Star, you know,

他們需要一顆北極星，

something to sort of, work towards together.

要有某事讓大家一同前行。

Now, based on this mission,

基於這項使命，

our vision is to provide three things to our users.

我們的願景是 提供三樣東西給使用者。

We want to provide a window to discover,

我們想提供發現新事物的窗口，

and I’ll talk about discovery, you talked about this, in a second.

過一會兒我就會談「發現」， 你剛剛提到的。

We want to give them a canvas to create,

我們想提供一塊創作的畫布，

which is going to be really exciting with new technologies in AI

這非常振奮人心，

人工智慧的新科技 會幫助人們創造新事物。

that are going to help people create new things.

And the final thing is bridges for people to connect.

最後一個是人與人建立連結的橋梁。

So that's sort of the vision of what we're trying to build.

這就是我們試著打造的願景。

Now what really makes TikTok very unique and very different

而真正讓抖音獨一無二、與眾不同的

is the whole discovery engine behind it.

是它背後的整個「發現引擎」。

So there are earlier apps that I have a lot of respect for,

我很敬重一些早期的應用程式，

but they were built for a different purpose.

但它們都是為其他目的而打造。

For example, in the era of search, you know,

例如在搜尋的年代，

there was an app that was built for people who wanted to search things

有個應用程式是為了 想要搜尋的人而打造，

so that is more easily found.

讓人更容易找到資訊。

And then in the era of social graphs,

在社交圖譜的年代，

it was about connecting people and their followers.

那是要在人與其追蹤者間建立連結。

Now what we have done is that ... based on our machine-learning algorithms,

而我們做到的事情是， 基於我們的機器學習演算法，

we're showing people what they liked.

我們讓人們看到他們喜歡的東西。

And what this means is that we have given the everyday person

這就代表我們給了平凡人 一個被發現的平臺。

a platform to be discovered.

If you have talent, it is very, very easy to get discovered on TikTok.

如果你有才華， 非常容易能在抖音被發現。

And I'll just give you one example of this.

我將會給你一個實例。

The biggest creator on TikTok is a guy called Khaby.

抖音上最大的創作者 是一個叫卡比的傢伙。

Khaby was from Senegal,

卡比來自塞內加爾，

he lives in Italy, he was a factory worker.

住在義大利，是一位工廠勞工。

He, for the longest time, didn't even speak in any of his videos.

甚至有很長一段時間裡 他沒在任何影片裡講過一句話。

But what he did was he had talent.

但他有才華。

He was funny, he had a good expression,

他很好笑，有很強的表達力，

he had creativity, so he kept posting.

他也有創造力， 所以不停發布新內容。

And today he has 160 million followers on our platform.

今天，他在我們的平臺上 有 1.6 億位追蹤者。

So every single day we hear stories like that,

每一天，我們都聽說這樣的故事，

businesses, people with talent.

聽說才華出眾的事業與人。

And I think it's very freeing to have a platform

這樣的一個平臺讓人擁有自由，

where, as long as you have talent, you're going to be heard

在這裡，只要你有才華， 你就可以被聽見，

and you have the chance to succeed.

你就有機會成功。

And that's what we're providing to our users.

而這就是我們帶給使用者的事物。

CA: So this is the amazing thing to me.

克：這就是讓我驚豔的地方。

Like, most of us have grown up with, say, network television,

我們大多數人成長於 電視聯播網的時代，

where, for decades you've had thousands of brilliant, creative people

數十年來成千上萬聰明、有創意的人

toiling in the trenches,

絞盡腦汁，

trying to imagine stuff that will be amazing for an audience.

試圖發想可以驚豔觀眾的東西。

And none of them ever remotely came up with anything

但沒有任何人想出

that looked like many of your creators.

像你們的創作者一樣的事物。

So these algorithms,

因此這些演算法

just by observing people's behavior and what they look like,

只是藉由觀察人們的行為和外表，

have discovered things that thousands of brilliant humans never discovered.

就發掘出成千上萬聰明人 未曾發現的事物。

Tell me some of the things that it is looking at.

告訴我演算法會觀察哪些資訊。

So obvious things, like if someone presses like

有些比較明顯，像是如果有人按讚，

or stays on a video for a long time,

或是在一部影片上逗留很久，

that gives you a clue, "more like that."

就給了你們線索： 「多點那種東西。」

But is it subject matter?

那題材呢？

What are the array of things

到底有哪些東西

that you have noticed that you can actually track

是你們注意到真的能加以追蹤，

that provide useful clues?

提供有用的線索的？

SC: I'm going to simplify this a lot,

周：我會解釋得非常簡化，

but the machine learning, the recommendation algorithm

但機器學習、提供推薦的演算法

is really just math.

其實就只是數學。

So, for example, if you liked videos one, two, three and four,

舉例來說，如果你 幫影片 1、2、3、4 按讚，

and I like videos one, two, three and five,

而我幫影片 1、2、3、5 按讚，

maybe he liked videos one, two, three and six.

也許他幫影片 1、2、3、6 按讚。

Now what's going to happen is,

那接下來會發生的是，

because we like one, two, three at the same time,

因為我們都對 1、2、3 按了讚，

he's going to be shown four, five, six, and so are we.

他就會看到 4、5、6 ，我們也是。

And you can think about this repeated at scale in real time

你可以想像這件事 即時地大規模重複進行，

across more than a billion people.

橫跨超過十億人。

That's basically what it is, it's math.

基本上它就是這樣，這是數學。

And of course, you know,

當然，你知道，

AI and machine learning has allowed this to be done

人工智慧和機器學習讓這件事

能以極其巨大的規模進行。

at a very, very big scale.

And what we have seen, the result of this,

而我們所看到的結果

is that it learns the interest signals

是它很快就學會 人們流露的興趣訊號，

that people exhibit very quickly

and shows you content that's really relevant for you

用很快的速度把跟你 真正相關的內容推送給你。

in a very quick way.

CA: So it's a form of collaborative filtering, from what you're saying.

克：所以就你所言， 這是協同過濾的一種形式。

The theory behind it is that these humans are weird people,

它的理論是這些人很怪， 我們不知道他們對什麼感興趣，

we don't really know what they're interested in,

但如果我們看到某人跟他人 感興趣的事物有所重疊，

but if we see that one human is interested,

with an overlap of someone else, chances are, you know,

那很有可能，你知道，

you could make use of the other pieces

可以利用其他的東西，

that are in that overlapped human's repertoire to feed them,

把其他人看的東西餵給他們，

and they'll be surprised.

他們會很驚喜。

But the reason they like it is because their pal also liked it.

但他們喜歡的原因是 他們的朋友也喜歡。

SC: It's pattern recognition based on your interest signals.

周：這是基於你的 興趣訊號的模式識別。

And I think the other thing here

而我認為另一件事情是

is that we don't actually ask you 20 questions

我們不會問你 20 道問題，

on whether you like a piece of content, you know, what are your interests,

像你喜不喜歡某個內容、 有什麼興趣，

我們不做那種事。

we don't do that.

我們把那種體驗有機地 打造在應用程式中。

We built that experience organically into the app experience.

你用拇指投票，

So you are voting with your thumbs by watching a video,

不論看影片、滑過去、按讚、分享，

by swiping it, by liking it, by sharing it,

you are basically exhibiting interest signals.

你基本上都是在展現興趣訊號。

And what it does mathematically is to take those signals,

演算法在數學上就是吸收這些訊號，

put it in a formula and then matches it through pattern recognition.

代入一套公式， 然後透過模式識別進行配對。

That's basically the idea behind it.

它背後的點子基本上就是如此。

CA: I mean, lots of start-ups have tried to use these types of techniques.

克：我的意思是， 很多新創企業都用過這類技術。

I'm wondering what else played a role early on?

在草創期還有哪些因素？

我是指以下這件事有多重要，

I mean, how big a deal was it,

that from the get-go you were optimizing for smartphones

從最一開始你們就針對 智慧型手機進行最佳化，

so that videos were shot in portrait format

所以影片是以直立的方向拍攝，

and they were short.

而且很短。

Was that an early distinguishing thing that mattered?

這是早期一個重要的差異嗎？

SC: I think we were the first to really try this at scale.

周：我認為是我們最早開始 大規模測試這套技術。

You know, the recommendation algorithm is a very important reason

你知道，推薦演算法 是一項非常重要的因素，

as to why the platform is so popular among so many people.

可以解釋為何這個平臺 能夠大為流行。

But beyond that, you know, you mentioned the format itself.

但在此之外，你還提到影片的格式。

So we talked about the vision of the company,

我們談到這家企業的願景

which is to have a window to discover.

是提供一扇發現之窗。

And if you just open the app for the first time,

而如果你首次打開這個應用程式，

you'll see that it takes up your whole screen.

會發現它占滿整個螢幕。

這就是我們想要的窗口。

So that's the window that we want.

你可以想見有許多人利用那扇窗

You can imagine a lot of people using that window

to discover new things in their lives.

發現了生命中的新事物。

Then, you know, through this recommendation algorithm,

然後，透過推薦演算法，

we have found that it connects people together.

我們發現它讓人們有所連結。

人們找到社群，

People find communities,

and I've heard so many stories of people who have found their communities

而我聽過很多故事是 人們找到所屬的社群，

because of the content that they're posting.

因為他們發布的內容。

Now, I'll give you an example.

現在，我要給你一個例子。

I was in DC recently, and I met with a bunch of creators.

我最近在華盛頓特區， 遇到了一群創作者。

CA: I heard.

克：我有聽說。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

SC: One of them was sitting next to me at a dinner,

周：其中一位有次晚餐 坐我旁邊，他叫山繆。

his name is Samuel.

He runs a restaurant in Phoenix, Arizona, and it's a taco restaurant.

他在亞利桑那州的鳳凰城 經營一家墨西哥夾餅餐廳。

He told me he has never done this before, first venture.

他告訴我他從未這麼做， 這是他首度創業。

He started posting all this content on TikTok,

他開始把這些內容發在抖音，

and I saw his content,

我看到了他的內容，

I was hungry after looking at it, it's great content.

看完我就餓了，那是很棒的內容。

And he's generated so much interest in his business,

他從生意中賺取了非常多利潤，

that last year he made something like a million dollars in revenue

去年他的營收就達到一百萬美元，

just via TikTok.

只是透過抖音，就一家餐廳。

One restaurant.

And again and again, I hear these stories,

一次又一次，我聽到這些故事。

you know, by connecting people together,

透過把眾人連結在一起，

by giving people the window to discover,

給予人們一扇發現的窗口，

we have given many small businesses and many people, your common person,

我們賦予許多小企業和平凡的個人

a voice that they will never otherwise have.

一個沒有抖音就不會有的發聲方式。

And I think that's the power of the platform.

我認為這就是這個平臺的力量。

CA: So you definitely have identified early

克：你在更早之前一定說過，

just how we're social creatures, we need affirmation.

我們是社會的動物， 我們需要他人的肯定。

我聽過一個故事，

I've heard a story,

and you can tell me whether true or not,

你可以告訴我它是真是假：

that one of the keys to your early liftoff

你在早期能夠大獲成功的關鍵之一

was that you wanted to persuade creators who were trying out TikTok

是你想要說服正在嘗試抖音的創作者

that this was a platform where they would get response,

這就是他們可以得到回應的平臺。

early on, when you're trying to grow something,

一開始你希望發展這個平臺時，

the numbers aren't there for response.

回應量沒這麼多。

So you had the brilliant idea of goosing those numbers a bit,

於是你想到一個 增加這些數字的主意，

basically finding ways to give people, you know,

基本上就是找到方法給人們

a bigger sense of like, more likes,

比實際情況更多的 按讚次數和參與度，

more engagement than was actually the case,

by using AI agents somehow in the process.

在過程中某種程度上 使用人工智慧代理人。

Is that a brilliant idea, or is that just a myth?

這是一個聰明的點子， 還是只是迷思？

SC: I would describe it in a different way.

周：我會用不同的方式表述它。

So there are other platforms that exist before TikTok.

有一些其他平臺出現於抖音之前。

And if you think about those platforms,

如果你想想這些平臺，

you sort of have to be famous already in order to get followers.

只有已經成名的人才會擁有追蹤者。

Because the way it’s built is that people come and follow people.

因為它們的打造方式 就是人們會來追蹤某些人。

And if you aren't already famous,

而如果你不是已經成名的人，

the chances that you get discovered are very, very low.

你被發現的機會就很小很小。

Now, what we have done, again,

而我們所辦到的，再次強調，

because of the difference in the way we're recommending content,

是因為我們用不同的方式推薦內容，

is that we have given anyone,

因此我們讓任何人、 任何有才華的個體

any single person with enough talent a stage to be able to be discovered.

一個可以被發現的舞臺。

And I think that actually is the single, probably the most important thing

我認為那是促進這個平臺成長

contributing to the growth of the platform.

最重要的單一因素。

And again and again, you will hear stories from people who use the platform,

你會一再聽到 這個平臺的使用者的故事，

這些人定期發布內容，

who post regularly on it,

that if they have something they want to say,

如果他們有話想說，

the platform gives them the chance and the stage

這個平臺給予他們機會和舞臺

to connect with their audience

跟觀眾建立連結，

in a way that I think no other product in the past has ever offered them.

用一種以往的產品 從未提供給他們的方式。

CA: So I'm just trying to play back what you said there.

克：我試著重述你所說的。

You said you were describing a different way what I said.

你說你要用一種不同的方式 描述我所說的事。

Is it then the case that like, to give someone a decent chance,

情況是不是像是 為了給予某人一個好機會，

someone who's brilliant but doesn't come with any followers initially,

這個人很有才華， 但起初沒有追蹤者，

that you've got some technique to identify talent

你們有某些技術去偵測才華，

and that you will almost encourage them,

然後你們會鼓勵這些人，

you will give them some kind of, you know,

給予他們某種，你知道，

artificially increase the number of followers or likes

人為增加的追蹤者人數或按讚數，

or whatever that they have,

或是他們的其他東西，

so that others are encouraged to go,

因此其他人會被激勵：

"Wow, there's something there."

「哇，那裡真有搞頭。」

這是群聚效應的概念，

Like it's this idea of critical mass that kind of, every entrepreneur,

幾乎每個企業家、 活動策劃人都知道的，

every party planner kind of knows about of

"No, no, this is the hot place in town, everyone come,"

「這是最熱門的地方， 所有人都會來，」

and that that is how you actually gain critical mass?

這是你達成群聚效應的實際方式嗎？

SC: We want to make sure that every person who posts a video

周：我們希望確保任何發布影片的人

is given an equal chance to be able to have some audience to begin with.

都能有均等的機會獲得最初的觀眾。

But this idea that you are maybe alluding to,

但你所說的想法可能是在影射

that we can get people to like something,

我們可以讓人們喜歡某些東西，

it doesn't really work like that.

但它並不是這樣運作的。

CA: Could you get AI agents to like something?

克：你能讓人工智慧代理人 喜歡某樣東西嗎？

Could you seed the network with extra AI agents that could kind of, you know,

你可以利用人工智慧代理人 預先設定這個網絡，

give someone early encouragement?

讓某人在早期得到激勵嗎？

SC: Ultimately, what the machine does is it recognizes people's interests.

周：追根究柢，機器做的 就是識別人們的興趣。

So if you post something that's not interesting to a lot of people,

所以如果你發的東西 對多數人來講不有趣，

even if you gave it a lot of exposure,

即便你給它很高的曝光率，

you're not going to get the virality that you want.

你也無法達到你想要的病毒式傳播。

So it's a lot of ...

所以這是很多的……

There is no push here.

其中並沒有人為助力。

It's not like you can go and push something,

你沒有辦法推廣某個事物，

because I like Chris, I'm going to push your content,

因為喜歡克里斯就推廣你的內容，

it doesn't work like that.

不是這麼運作的。

You've got to have a message that resonates with people,

你必須有一個激發共鳴的訊息，

如果有，

and if it does,

它就會自然而然地紅起來。

then it will automatically just have the virality itself.

That's the beauty of user-generated content.

這就是使用者產出內容的美妙之處。

It's not something that can be engineered or over-thought.

它不能被設計或事前規劃。

It really is something that has to resonate with the audience.

它其實就是跟觀眾有共鳴的事物。

And if it does, then it goes viral.

如果它有，就會紅起來。

CA: Speaking privately with an investor who knows your company quite well,

克：我跟一位非常了解你的公司的 投資者私下聊過，

who said that actually the level of sophistication

他說你的演算法老練的程度

of the algorithms you have going

is just another order of magnitude

跟臉書、YouTube 等競爭者比起來 完全是不同的數量級。

to what competitors like, you know, Facebook or YouTube have going.

Is that just hype or do you really believe you --

那只是炒作，還是你真的很有信心？

like, how complex are these algorithms?

像是，這些演算法有多複雜？

SC: Well, I think in terms of complexity,

周：我想，就複雜度而言，

there are many companies who have a lot of resources

很多公司都有大量資源與天才。

and a lot of talent.

They will figure out even the most complex algorithms.

他們會設計出最複雜的演算法。

I think what is very different is your mission of your company,

我認為最為不同的地方 是你的企業的使命，

how you started the company.

你如何開始建立公司。

Like I said, you know, we started with this idea

如我所說，你知道， 我們最初的點子是

that this was the main use case.

這是主要的使用情境：

The most important use case is you come and you get to see recommended content.

最重要的使用情境是 你一來就看到推薦的內容。

Now for some other apps out there,

而其他既有的應用程式

they are very significant and have a lot of users,

影響力很巨大，擁有許多使用者，

they are built for a different original purpose.

它們是為了不同的原始目的而打造。

And if you are built for something different,

而如果你是另有目標，

使用者就會習以為常，

then your users are used to that

because the community comes in and they expect that sort of experience.

因為這個社群加入時 就是期望那一種體驗。

我認為事情的關鍵

So I think the pivot away from that

is not really just a matter of engineering and algorithms,

並不只是工程和演算法，

it’s a matter of what your company is built to begin with.

而是你的企業是為何而打造。

Which is why I started this by saying you need to have a vision,

這就是為什麼我一開始 會說你要有願景，

你必須有使命，那就是北極星。

you need to have a mission, and that's the North Star.

You can't just shift it halfway.

你不能半途而廢。

CA: Right.

克：沒錯。

And is it fair to say

這樣說公不公道：

that because your start point has been interest algorithms

因為你的起始點就是興趣演算法，

而非社交圖譜演算法，

rather than social graph algorithms,

you've been able to avoid some of the worst of the sort of,

所以你們能夠避免 一個非常糟的問題，

也就是其他社交媒體的同溫層，

the filter bubbles that have happened in other social media

where you have tribes kind of declaring war on each other effectively.

你有有效互相對立的各種論點。

And so much of the noise and energy is around that.

而許多議論和活力正是以此為中心。

Do you believe that you've largely avoided that on TikTok?

你是否相信你在抖音 大致避免了同溫層？

SC: The diversity of content that our users see is very key.

周：最重要的關鍵是我們的使用者 看見的內容的多樣性。

You know, in order for the discovery -- the mission is to discover --

你知道，為了促成發現—— 我們的使命就是發現——

sorry, the vision is to discover.

抱歉，我們的願景是發現。

So in order to facilitate that,

為了促成這件事，

it is very important to us

對我們而言很重要的是

that what the users see is a diversity of content.

使用者所見的是多樣的內容。

Now, generally speaking, you know,

大體而言，你知道，

there are certain issues that you mentioned

你提到了一些議題 是這個產業要面對的。

that the industry faces, you know.

There are some bad actors who come on the internet,

網路上有些不好的行為人，

they post bad content.

發布壞內容。

我們的方法是我們有 非常清晰的社群守則。

Now our approach is that we have very clear community guidelines.

We're very transparent about what is allowed

我們對於平臺要容許 和禁止什麼非常透明。

and what is not allowed on our platform.

No executives make any ad hoc decisions.

沒有行政人員會做出臨時的決定。

And based on that,

基於這點，

we have built a team that is tens of thousands of people plus machines

我們成立了一支數萬人 加上機器的小組，

in order to identify content that is bad

以辨別出壞的內容，

and actively and proactively remove it from the platform.

並主動積極地將它從平臺移除。

CA: Talk about what some of those key guidelines are.

克：談談有哪些關鍵守則。

SC: We have it published on our website.

周：我們把它公布在網站上。

In March, we just iterated a new version to make it more readable.

我們三月才修訂了一份新版本， 為了讓它更易讀。

So there are many things like, for example, no pornography,

其中有很多規定，例如禁止色情，

clearly no child sexual abuse material and other bad things,

清楚禁止兒童性虐待題材 和其他不好的事情，

no violence, for example.

像是禁止暴力。

We also make it clear that it's a differentiated experience

我們也清楚表示未滿 18 歲者 會有差異化的體驗。

if you're below 18 years old.

So if you're below 18 years old, for example,

舉例來說，如果你還沒 18 歲，

your entire app experience is actually more restricted.

你整個應用程式體驗 其實是更加受限的。

We don't allow, as an example,

例如我們預設不允許

users below 16, by default, to go viral.

低於 16 歲的使用者爆紅。

We don't allow that.

我們不允許。

If you're below 16,

如果沒有 16 歲，

我們不允許你使用 應用程式的即時訊息功能。

we don’t allow you to use the instant messaging feature in app.

If you’re below 18, we don’t allow you to use the livestreaming features.

如果你未滿 18 歲， 我們不允許你使用直播功能。

And of course, we give parents a whole set of tools

當然，我們也給予家長一整套工具

to control their teenagers’ experience as well.

控制青少年子女的體驗。

克：你們怎麼知道使用者的年紀？

CA: How do you know the age of your users?

SC: In our industry, we rely mainly on something called age gating,

克：在我們這個產業， 我們主要依靠的是年齡限制，

which is when you sign up for the app for the first time

這是說當你首次註冊應用程式，

and we ask you for the age.

我們會問你的年齡。

Now, beyond that,

除此之外，

we also have built tools to go through your public profile for example,

舉例來說，我們也建立了 檢查你的公開資訊的工具，

when you post a video,

當你發布影片，

we try to match the age that you said with the video that you just posted.

我們會試著檢查你宣稱的年齡 和你發布的影片是否相符。

Now, there are questions of can we do more?

問題是我們能不能做得更多？

And the question always has, for every company, by the way,

這個問題對於我們產業的每家企業， 總是必須跟隱私權取得平衡。

in our industry, has to be balanced with privacy.

Now, if, for example, we scan the faces of every single user,

比如說，如果掃描每個使用者的臉，

then we will significantly increase the ability to tell their age.

我們判斷年齡的能力就會大為提升。

But we will also significantly increase the amount of data

但我們也會大量增加 從你身上蒐集的資料量。

that we collect on you.

Now, we don't want to collect data.

我們不想蒐集資料。

我們不想蒐集你的臉部掃描資料。

We don't want to scan data on your face to collect that.

So that balance has to be maintained,

所以必須求取一個平衡，

and it's a challenge that we are working through

這是我們正在和這個產業 以及監管者努力克服的挑戰。

together with industry, together with the regulators as well.

CA: So look, one thing that is unquestionable

克：看起來無庸置疑的是

is that you have created a platform for literally millions of people

你為數百萬未曾想過 成為內容創作者的人

who never thought they were going to be a content creator.

建立了一個平臺。

You've given them an audience.

你給他們觀眾。

I'd actually like to hear from you one other favorite example

我其實想再聽一個你最喜歡的例子，

of someone who TikTok has given an audience to

抖音給了某人以前 從未有過的一群觀眾。

that never had that before.

SC: So when again,

周：再一次，

when I travel around the world,

當我前往世界各地時，

I meet with a whole bunch of creators on our platform.

我遇到一大群我們平臺的創作者。

I was in South Korea just yesterday, and before that I met with -- yes,

我昨天在南韓，此前我遇到了——

before that I met with a bunch of --

在我遇到一群人之前。

People don't expect, for example, teachers.

大家不會想到的人，例如老師。

There is an English teacher from Arkansas.

有一位來自阿肯色州的英文老師。

Her name is Claudine, and I met her in person.

她的名字是克勞汀，我遇到她本人。

She uses our platform to reach out to students.

她用我們的平臺來幫助學生。

There is another teacher called Chemical Kim.

還有另一位老師叫「化學金」。

And Chemical Kim teaches chemistry.

化學金教化學。

What she does is she uses our platform

她使用我們的平臺

to reach out to a much broader student base

幫助到比在教室裡更多的學生。

than she has in her classroom.

And they're both very, very popular.

她們都非常有名。

You know, in fact,

你知道，事實上，

what we have realized is that STEM content

我們發現科學、技術、 工程、數學的內容

has over 116 billion views on our platform globally.

在我們的平臺上 全球超過 1160 億的觀看次數。

And it's so significant --

這真的很多——

CA: In a year?

克：一年嗎？

SC: Cumulatively.

周：總共。

CA: [116] billion.

克： 1160 億。

SC: It's so significant, that in the US we have started testing,

周：這真的很多， 於是我們開始在美國測試

creating a feed just for STEM content.

專門建立科學、技術、 工程、數學內容的頻道。

Just for STEM content.

專門給 STEM 內容。

I’ve been using it for a while, and I learned something new.

我已經使用它一陣子了， 我有學到新知識。

You want to know what it is?

你想知道是什麼嗎？

Apparently if you flip an egg on your tray,

如果你把雞蛋倒過來放，

the egg will last longer.

就可以保鮮更久。

It's science,

這是科學，有一系列影片，

there’s a whole video on this, I learned this on TikTok.

我在抖音學到的。

你可以搜尋看看。

You can search for this.

CA: You want to know something else about an egg?

克：你還想知道雞蛋的知識嗎？

如果你把雞蛋放在一隻手上， 非常用力擠壓它，

If you put it in just one hand and squeeze it as hard as you can,

它不會破掉。

it will never break.

周：對，我覺得我也讀到過。

SC: Yes, I think I read about that, too.

克：那不是真的。

CA: It's not true.

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

周：我們可以找找看，搜尋看看。

SC: We can search for it.

CA: But look, here's here's the flip side to all this amazingness.

克：但注意看這些驚奇的反面。

And honestly, this is the key thing,

老實說，這是一個關鍵，

that I want to have an honest, heart-to-heart conversation with you

因此我想跟你有一段 真誠、推心置腹的對話，

because it's such an important issue,

因為這是重要議題，

成癮的問題。

this question of human addiction.

You know, we are ...

你知道，我們是……

animals with a prefrontal cortex.

有前額葉皮質的動物。

That's how I think of us.

我是這麼想的。

We have these addictive instincts that go back millions of years,

我們這些成癮的本能 可追溯到數百萬年前，

and we often are in the mode of trying to modulate our own behavior.

我們時常處於試著 調整自己的行為的模式。

It turns out that the internet is incredibly good

結果發現網際網路極度擅長

at activating our animal cells

活化我們的動物細胞，

and getting them so damn excited.

讓它們該死地興奮起來。

And your company, the company you've built,

而你的公司，你所打造的公司

is better at it than any other company on the planet, I think.

比這顆星球上任何其他公司 都還要擅長，我覺得。

So what are the risks of this?

那麼這件事的風險是什麼？

I mean, how ...

我的意思是，怎麼……

From a company point of view, for example,

舉例來說，從一家企業的視角，

it's in your interest to have people on there as long as possible.

讓人們待在上面越久越好 符合你們的利益。

So some would say, as a first pass,

有些人會說，從一開始，

you want people to be addicted as long as possible.

你們就希望人們成癮得越久越好。

That's how advertising money will flow and so forth,

這是廣告費等事物流入的方式，

and that's how your creators will be delighted.

也是讓你的創作者開心的理由。

What is too much?

這會不會太超過？

SC: I don't actually agree with that.

周：我其實並不同意。

You know, as a company,

你知道，身為一家公司，

our goal is not to optimize and maximize time spent.

我們的目標並不是極大化 花在我們身上的時間。

It is not.

並非如此。

In fact, in order to address people spending too much time on our platform,

事實上，為了處理人們在我們平臺 花費太多時間的問題，

we have done a number of things.

我們做了幾件事。

I was just speaking with some of your colleagues backstage.

我剛剛在後臺跟一些你的同事談話。

One of them told me she has encountered this as well.

其中一位告訴我她也遇到過這件事。

If you spend too much time on our platform,

如果你在我們的平臺花太多時間，

we will proactively send you videos to tell you to get off the platform.

我們會主動推送 提醒你離開平臺的影片。

We will.

我們真的會。

And depending on the time of the day,

而且取決於時間，

如果夜深了，影片會來得更快。

if it's late at night, it will come sooner.

We have also built in tools to limit,

我們也在工具中建立限制，

if you below 18 years old, by default,

預設是如果你未滿 18 歲，

we set a 60-minute default time limit.

我們會設定 60 分鐘的限制。

CA: How many?

克：幾分鐘？ 周：60 分鐘。

SC: Sixty minutes.

我們也給家長和你本人工具，

And we've given parents tools and yourself tools,

if you go to settings, you can set your own time limit.

如果你去設定，可以自己限制時間。

我們也給家長工具進行配對，

We've given parents tools so that you can pair,

如果有家長不知道， 可以去設定，家庭安全配對，

for the parents who don't know this, go to settings, family pairing,

你可以把你的手機跟孩子的配對起來

you can pair your phone with your teenager's phone

並設下時間限制。

and set the time limit.

And we really encourage parents to have these conversations with their teenagers

而且我們非常鼓勵家長 跟青少年進行討論

on what is the right amount of screen time.

螢幕使用時間多少才合適。

I think there’s a healthy relationship that you should have with your screen,

我認為你應該跟螢幕有健康的關係，

而身為一家公司， 我們相信必須取得平衡。

and as a business, we believe that that balance needs to be met.

所以我們並不是 只想極大化使用時間。

So it's not true that we just want to maximize time spent.

CA: If you were advising parents here

克：如果要你建議在座的家長

what time they should actually recommend to their teenagers,

他們應該跟子女提議多少的時間，

what do you think is the right setting?

你認為正確的設定是什麼？

SC: Well, 60 minutes,

周：嗯，60 分鐘， 這不是我們自己想的。

we did not come up with it ourselves.

So I went to the Digital Wellness Lab at the Boston Children's Hospital,

我去了波士頓兒童醫院 數位健康實驗室，

and we had this conversation with them.

跟他們討論了這個問題。

And 60 minutes was the recommendation that they gave to us,

而 60 分鐘是他們給我們的建議，

所以我們把它預設在應用程式。

which is why we built this into the app.

So 60 minutes, take it for what it is,

所以 60 分鐘，就這麼建議吧，

it’s something that we’ve had some discussions of experts.

這是我們跟專家討論過的。

But I think for all parents here,

但對於在座的家長，

it is very important to have these conversations with your teenage children

我認為非常重要的是 跟青少年子女有這些討論，

and help them develop a healthy relationship with screens.

並幫助他們與螢幕建立健康的關係。

I think we live in an age where it's completely inevitable

我認為我們生活在一個無可避免

that we're going to interact with screens and digital content,

要跟螢幕和數位內容互動的時代，

but I think we should develop healthy habits early on in life,

但我認為我們應該在人生中 盡早發展出健康的習慣，

and that's something I would encourage.

這是我會鼓勵的事情。

CA: Curious to ask the audience,

克：好奇問一下各位觀眾，

which of you who have ever had that video on TikTok appear

你們當中有誰曾經 在抖音看到那個影片，

saying, “Come off.”

叫你別再用了？

OK, I mean ...

好，我的意思是……

So maybe a third of the audience seem to be active TikTok users,

也許有三分之一的聽眾 是抖音的活躍使用者，

and about 20 people maybe put their hands up there.

但舉手的大概只有 20 人。

Are you sure that --

你確定——

like, it feels to me like this is a great thing to have,

對我來說這是一件好事，

but are you ...

但你會不會……

isn't there always going to be a temptation

難道不會總有一股誘惑，

in any given quarter or whatever,

不論是在某一季或其他情況，

to just push it a bit at the boundary

稍微越過界限，

and just dial back a bit on that

對於成癮預防做出妥協，

so that you can hit revenue goals, etc?

以達到營收目標等數據嗎？

Are you saying that this is used scrupulously?

你是說這會一絲不苟地落實嗎？

SC: I think, you know, in terms ...

周：我認為，你知道，談到……

Even if you think about it from a commercial point of view,

就算你在商言商，

it is always best when your customers have a very healthy relationship

讓顧客跟你的產品 有健康的關係總是最好的。

with your product.

It's always best when it's healthy.

它健康永遠是最好的。

So if you think about very short-term retention, maybe,

如果你想的是短期保有客戶，也許吧，

but that's not the way we think about it.

但我們不是這麼思考的。

If you think about it from a longer-term perspective,

如果你從長期的視角來思考，

what you really want to have is a healthy relationship, you know.

你真正想要有的是 健康的關係，你知道。

You don’t want people to develop very unhealthy habits,

你不想讓人們發展出 非常不健康的習慣，

and then at some point they're going to drop it.

然後在某個時間點退出應用程式。

So I think everything in moderation.

所以我認為一切都要適度。

CA: There's a claim out there that in China,

周：有一個說法是在中國，

there's a much more rigorous standards imposed on the amount of time

他們以更嚴格的標準限制使用時間，

that children, especially, can spend on the TikTok equivalent of that.

尤其是孩童可以花在 抖音及其同類產品的時間。

SC: That is unfortunately a misconception.

周：很不幸的，這是一個誤解。

So that experience that is being mentioned for Douyin,

你所述的體驗是中國版抖音， 那是不同的應用程式，

which is a different app,

is for an under 14-year-old experience.

對於未滿 14 歲孩童的使用體驗。

Now, if you compare that in the United States,

如果你拿來跟美國的抖音相比，

we have an under-13 experience in the US.

我們在美國有未滿 13 歲的體驗。

It's only available in the US, it's not available here in Canada,

這只有美國可以使用， 在加拿大這裡沒有開放。

in Canada, we just don't allow it.

在加拿大我們直接禁止。

If you look at the under-13 experience in the US,

如果你看一下美國 未滿 13 歲的體驗，

it's much more restricted than the under-14 experience in China.

它比中國未滿 14 歲的 體驗更加受限。

It's so restrictive,

它的限制程度高到每一個內容

that every single piece of content is vetted

都要經過我們的 第三方兒童安全專家審查。

by our third-party child safety expert.

And we don't allow any under-13s in the US to publish,

而且我們不允許美國 任何未滿 13 歲者發表內容，

we don’t allow them to post,

我們不准他們發文，

and we don't allow them to use a lot of features.

我們也不讓他們使用很多功能。

So I think that that report, I've seen that report too,

所以我認為那篇報導，我也讀過，

它的比較是不公平的。

it's not doing a fair comparison.

CA: What do you make of this issue?

克：你對此有何看法？

你知道，你擁有 數百萬名內容創作者，

You know, you've got these millions of content creators

and all of them, in a sense, are in a race for attention,

而他們所有人在某種程度上 都在競逐注意力，

and that race can pull them in certain directions.

這個競賽會把他們帶往特定的方向。

So, for example, teenage girls on TikTok,

舉例來說，抖音上的青少女，

sometimes people worry that, to win attention,

有時大家會擔心為了贏得注意力，

they've discovered that by being more sexual

她們會發現只要更性感一些，

that they can gain extra viewers.

就可以獲得更多觀看者。

這需要擔心嗎？

Is this a concern?

Is there anything you can do about this?

你對這個問題有什麼可以做的嗎？

SC: We address this in our community guidelines as well.

周：我們也在社群守則 處理了這個問題。

You know, if you look at sort of the sexualized content on our guidelines,

你知道，如果你看看 我們的守則提到的性感內容，

if you’re below a certain age,

假如你低於特定年齡，

you know, for certain themes that are mature,

你知道，那些成年的場景

we actually remove that from your experience.

其實會被我們從你的體驗移除。

Again, I come back to this,

我要再次回來這一點，

you know, we want to have a safe platform.

我們想要有個安全的平臺。

In fact, at my congressional hearing,

事實上，在國會聽證會，

I made four commitments to our users and to the politicians in the US.

我對我們的使用者和美國的政治人物 做出了四項承諾。

And the first one is that we take safety, especially for teenagers,

第一是我們非常嚴肅地看待安全性，

extremely seriously,

尤其是對青少年，

and we will continue to prioritize that.

而且我們會繼續將其置於首位。

You know, I believe that we need to give our teenage users,

你知道，我相信我們必須 給予青少年使用者

and our users in general,

以及所有使用者

a very safe experience,

非常安全的體驗。

because if we don't do that,

因為如果我們不如此，

then we cannot fulfill --

我們就無法實現 刺激創意與帶來快樂的使命。

the mission is to inspire creativity and to bring joy.

If they don't feel safe, I cannot fulfill my mission.

如果他們感覺不安全， 我就無法達成使命。

So it's all very organic to me as a business

所以對於我的生意而言， 確保我做到這件事

to make sure I do that.

是非常有機的。

CA: But in the strange interacting world of human psychology and so forth,

克：但這個奇怪而彼此互動的世界 涉及心理學等事物，

weird memes can take off.

怪異的迷因可以爆紅。

I mean, you had this outbreak a couple years back

我是說，你在幾年前 曾爆發過一件事，

with these devious licks where kids were competing with each other

小孩用這些狡猾的技倆互相競爭，

to do vandalism in schools and, you know,

故意破壞學校的財產，你知道，

get lots of followers from it.

為了得到很多追蹤者。

How on Earth do you battle something like that?

怎麼可能會有人比賽這種事？

SC: So dangerous challenges are not allowed on our platform.

周：所以我們的平臺 不允許危險的挑戰。

If you look at our guidelines, it's violative.

如果你看看我們的守則， 它是違規的。

We proactively invest resources to identify them

我們積極主動地投入資源 以識別這類內容，

and remove them from our platform.

並把它們從平臺上移除。

In fact, if you search for dangerous challenges on our platform today,

事實上，現在如果你在我們的平臺 搜尋危險的挑戰，

we will redirect you to a safety resource page.

我們會把你重新導向到 安全指南的頁面。

And we actually worked with some creators as well to come up with campaigns.

而且我們其實也跟創作者 構思了一些活動。

This is another campaign.

這是另一個活動。

It's the "Stop, Think, Decide Before You Act" campaign

它叫「停一停，想一想， 先決定再行動」，

where we work with the creators to produce videos,

我們在活動中跟創作者一同製作影片

to explain to people that some things are dangerous,

來向大家說明有些事物是危險的，

please don't do it.

請不要去做。

And we post these videos actively on our platform as well.

而且我們也主動 將這些影片發在平臺上。

CA: That's cool.

克：這真酷。

And you've got lots of employees.

你有很多員工。

I mean, how many employees do you have

我想問，你的員工有多少人

who are specifically looking at these content moderation things,

專門在處理這些內容審查事務？

or is that the wrong question?

還是我不該這麼問？

它們是先由人工智慧進行識別，

Are they mostly identified by AI initially

and then you have a group who are overseeing

然後你們的團隊才去檢查

and making the final decision?

並做出最終決定嗎？

SC: The group is based in Ireland and it's a lot of people,

周：這個團隊設在愛爾蘭， 它的人數眾多，

it's tens of thousands of people.

有好幾萬人。

CA: Tens of thousands?

克：好幾萬人？

SC: It's one of the most important cost items on my PnL,

周：這是我的損益表上 成本最高的項目之一，

而我認為這完全是值得的。

and I think it's completely worth it.

Now, most of the moderation has to be done by machines.

多數審查必須由機器做。

The machines are good, they're quite good,

機器很好，相當好，

but they're not as good as, you know,

但它們沒有好到，你知道，

they're not perfect at this point.

它們目前還不完美，

So you have to complement them with a lot of human beings today.

所以現今你必須以大量真人來輔助。

And I think, by the way, a lot of the progress in AI in general

而我認為，順帶一提， 人工智慧的許多進展大致上

is making that kind of content moderation capabilities a lot better.

讓這類內容審查的量能大大改善，

So we're going to get more precise.

因此我們可以更加準確。

You know, we’re going to get more specific.

你知道，我們可以更具體。

And it’s going to be able to handle larger scale.

這也可以用更大的規模去執行。

And that's something I think that I'm personally looking forward to.

我個人相當期待這件事情。

CA: What about this perceived huge downside

克：還有一件事被視為很大的問題，

of use of, certainly Instagram, I think TikTok as well.

一定跟 Instagram 的使用有關， 我覺得抖音也是。

What people worry that you are amplifying insecurities,

眾人擔心的是你們在增加不安全感，

especially of teenagers

尤其是對於青少年，

and perhaps especially of teenage girls.

可能最主要是青少女。

They see these amazing people on there doing amazing things,

他們看到這些驚奇的人 在平臺上做著驚奇的事情，

they feel inadequate,

覺得做得不夠，

there's all these reported cases of depression, insecurity,

所以有一大堆憂鬱、不安全感、 輕生等案例被回報。

suicide and so forth.

SC: I take this extremely seriously.

周：我嚴肅看待這個問題。

So in our guidelines,

所以在我們的守則中，

for certain themes that we think are mature and not suitable for teenagers,

我們認為特定主題屬於成人， 不適合青少年，

we actually proactively remove it from their experience.

我們實際上會主動將它 從他們的體驗中移除。

At the same time, if you search certain terms,

與此同時，如果你搜尋特定關鍵字，

we will make sure that you get redirected to a resource safety page.

我們會確保你被重新導向 到安全指南的頁面。

Now we are always working with experts to understand some of these new trends

我們總是跟專家合作，

理解這些可能產生的新趨勢，

that could emerge

and proactively try to manage them, if that makes sense.

主動試圖管制它們， 如果有需要的話。

Now, this is a problem that predates us,

這個問題在抖音出現之前就存在了。

that predates TikTok.

It actually predates the internet.

它其實比網路還早。

But it's our responsibility to make sure

但我們仍然有責任去確保

that we invest enough to understand and to address the concerns,

我們投入夠多資源 以理解並處理這些擔憂，

to keep the experience as safe as possible

讓使用越多人的體驗越安全越好。

for as many people as possible.

CA: Now, in Congress,

克：在國會，

the main concern seemed to be not so much what we've talked about,

主要的擔憂看起來不太是 我們先前討論的事情，

but data, the data of users,

而是資料，使用者的資料，

the fact that you're owned by ByteDance, Chinese company,

關於你們從屬於 字節跳動這家中國企業，

and the concern that at any moment

以及擔心在任何時間點

Chinese government might require or ask for data.

中國政府可能會要求或詢問資料。

And in fact, there have been instances

而事實上，已經有實例，

where, I think you've confirmed,

我認為你有承認過，

that some data of journalists on the platform

有些記者在平臺上的資訊

was made available to ByteDance's engineers

被設定成字節跳動的工程師可取用，

and from there, who knows what.

從那裡開始，誰知道會發生什麼？

Now, your response to this was to have this Project Texas,

你對此的回應是推動 「德克薩斯計畫」，

where you're moving data to be controlled by Oracle here in the US.

你們會將資料移轉到美國， 由甲骨文公司控制。

Can you talk about that project and why, if you believe it so,

你可不可以談談這個計畫，

以及你為什麼相信我們 不該這麼擔心這項議題？

why we should not worry so much about this issue?

SC: I will say a couple of things about this, if you don't mind.

周：若你不介意， 對此我有幾點要說。

我要說的第一件事是，

The first thing I would say is that the internet is built

網路建立於全球互操作性之上，

on global interoperability,

and we are not the only company that relies on the global talent pool

我們不是唯一一家依靠全球人才庫 來讓產品盡可能變好的公司。

to make our products as good as possible.

Technology is a very collaborative effort.

科技非常需要合作。

I think many people here would say the same thing.

我認為在場很多人也會同意。

So we are not the first company to have engineers in all countries,

我們不是第一個在全球， 包括中國都有工程師的公司，

including in China.

We're not the first one.

我們不是第一家。

我可以理解有些顧慮。

Now, I understand some of these concerns.

You know, the data access by employees is not data accessed by government.

你知道，資料可以被員工取用 不代表就可以被政府取用。

This is very different, and there’s a clear difference in this.

這很不一樣，差異點也十分清楚。

But we hear the concerns that are raised in the United States.

但我們聽到在美國被提出的擔憂。

We did not try to avoid discussing.

我們並未試圖迴避討論，

We did not try to argue our way out of it.

沒有試圖辯駁脫身。

What we did was we built an unprecedented project

我們所做的是建立 一個前所未有的計畫，

where we localize American data to be stored on American soil

讓美國人的資料在美國本土儲存，

by an American company overseen by American personnel.

由美國公司負責，受美國的人士監督。

So this kind of protection for American data

以這種等級來保護美國人的資料

is beyond what any other company in our industry has ever done.

遠遠超過我們產業中 任何其他公司所做到的水準。

Well, money is not the only issue here,

錢不是唯一的障礙，

but it's very expensive to build something like that.

但要建立這種東西是非常昂貴的。

And more importantly, you know,

更重要的是，你知道，

我們將資料當地化的方式 基本上沒有企業做到過的。

we are basically localizing data in a way that no other company has done.

So we need to be very careful that whilst we are pursuing

因此我們必須非常小心，

當我們在美國追求所謂的數位主權，

what we call digital sovereignty in the US

and we are also doing a version of this in Europe,

以及在歐洲做這件事時，

that we don't balkanize the internet.

我們不能讓網路四分五裂。

Now we are the first to do it.

我們是首個這麼做的。

And I expect that, you know,

而我預期，你知道，

other companies are probably looking at this

其他公司可能也在關注，

and trying to figure out how you balance between protecting, protected data,

試著找出如何平衡保護資料，

you know, to make sure that everybody feels secure about it

你知道，確保所有人對此感到安全，

while at the same time allowing for interoperability

同時允許互操作性持續發生，

to continue to happen,

因為就是它讓科技和網路這麼棒。

because that's what makes technology and the internet so great.

So that's something that we are doing.

這是我們正在做的事情。

CA: How far are you along that journey with Project Texas?

克：你在德克薩斯計畫的進程如何？

SC: We are very, very far along today.

周：我們已經做了很多。

CA: When will there be a clear you know,

克：什麼時候才會清楚地，你知道，

here it is, it’s done, it’s firewalled, this data is protected?

它已經完成了，設立防火牆， 資料受到保障？

SC: Today, by default, all new US data

周：今天，美國所有新資料都已經 預設儲存於甲骨文的雲端設備。

is already stored in the Oracle cloud infrastructure.

So it's in this protected US environment that we talked about in the United States.

它是在我們談過的 受保護的美國環境中。

We still have some legacy data to delete in our own servers in Virginia

我們在維吉尼亞和新加坡的伺服器中 還有一些要刪除的舊資料。

and in Singapore.

Our data has never been stored in China, by the way.

順帶一提，我們的資料 從未儲存在中國。

That deletion is a very big engineering effort.

資料的刪除是一項大工程。

So as we said, as I said at the hearing,

就如我們說的， 就像我在聽證會說的，

it's going to take us a while to delete them,

我們需要一些時間來將它刪除，

but I expect it to be done this year.

但我預期在今年就可以完成。

CA: How much power do you have

克：你個人有多大的權力 去控制特定的事項？

over your own ability to control certain things?

So, for example, suppose that, for whatever reason,

舉例而言，假如因為某個原因，

the Chinese government was to look at an upcoming US election and say,

中國政府要關注 即將來臨的美國大選，說：

"You know what, we would like this party to win," let's say,

「我們希望這個黨贏」，假設如此，

or "We would like civil war to break out" or whatever.

或是「我們希望內戰爆發」等等。

How ...

如何……

"And we could do this

「我們辦得到，

by amplifying the content of certain troublemaking, disturbing people,

只要多加推廣特定幾位 製造麻煩的搗亂者的內容，

causing uncertainty, spreading misinformation," etc.

造成不確定性，傳遞不實訊息」等。

If you were required via ByteDance to do this,

如果字節跳動要求你做這件事，

like, first of all, is there a pathway where theoretically that is possible?

首先，有理論上可行的方法嗎？

What's your personal line in the sand on this?

你個人對此的底線是什麼？

SC: So during the congressional hearing,

周：在國會聽證會中，

I made four commitments,

我做了四項承諾，

we talked about the first one, which is safety.

我們談了第一點：安全。

The third one is to keep TikTok a place of freedom of expression.

第三點是確保抖音是個 有言論自由的場所。

By the way, if you go on TikTok today,

如果你今天打開抖音， 你可以搜尋任何東西，

you can search for anything you want,

只要不要違反我們的社群守則。

as long as it doesn't violate our community guidelines.

And to keep it free from any government manipulation.

我們會讓抖音免於受任何政府干預。

And the fourth one is transparency and third-party monitoring.

第四點是透明度和第三方監督。

So the way we are trying to address this concern

我們試圖處理這個顧慮的方法是

is an unprecedented amount of transparency.

提供前所未有的透明度。

What do I mean by this?

我這麼說是什麼意思？

We're actually allowing third-party reviewers

我們其實允許第三方的審查者

to come in and review our source code.

進來審核我們的原始碼。

I don't know any other company that does this, by the way.

我沒聽過其他公司這麼做。

因為所有事情，如你所知， 都受程式驅動。

Because everything, as you know, is driven by code.

So to allow someone else to review the source code

所以允許他人審核原始碼

is to give this a significant amount of transparency

就是提供非常高的透明度，

to ensure that the scenarios that you described

以確保你所述的高度假設性情境

that are highly hypothetical, cannot happen on our platform.

不可能發生在我們平臺。

Now, at the same time,

與此同時，

we are releasing more research tools for researchers

我們正在發布更多 給研究者的研究工具，

so that they can study the output.

讓他們可以研究輸出。

So the source code is the input.

原始碼是輸入，

We are also allowing researchers to study the output,

我們也允許研究者研究輸出，

which is the content on our platform.

也就是我們平臺上的內容。

I think the easiest way to sort of fend this off is transparency.

我認為最簡單的解決之道 就是透明度。

You know, we give people access to monitor us,

你知道，我們讓大眾 有管道監督我們，

and we just make it very, very transparent.

而且我們讓它極為透明。

And that's our approach to the problem.

這是我們的解決方法。

克：所以你會直接告訴這個小組，

CA: So you will say directly to this group

that the scenario I talked about,

我所描述的情境，

of theoretical Chinese government interference in an American election,

理論上的中國政府干預美國大選，

you can say that will not happen?

你可以說這不會發生嗎？

SC: I can say that we are building all the tools

周：我可以說我們建立這些工具

to prevent any of these actions from happening.

就是為了預防任何這類行動的發生。

And I'm very confident that with an unprecedented amount of transparency

而且我很有信心，

靠著我們給予這個平臺的 前所未見的透明性，

that we're giving on the platform,

we can reduce this risk to as low as zero as possible.

我們可以將風險盡可能降到零。

CA: To as low as zero as possible.

克：盡可能降到零。

SC: To as close to zero as possible.

周：盡可能降到零。

CA: As close to zero as possible.

克：盡可能降到零。

That's fairly reassuring.

這相當讓人放心。

Fairly.

相當。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I mean, how would the world know?

我是指，世界怎麼知道？

If you discovered this or you thought you had to do it,

如果你發現了， 或是你覺得你必須做，

is this a line in the sand for you?

這是你的底線嗎？

Like, are you in a situation you would not let the company that you know now

你是否不會讓你所知道 且正在經營的公司做這件事？

and that you are running do this?

周：絕對不會。這就是我們 讓第三方來監督的原因，

SC: Absolutely.

That's the reason why we're letting third parties monitor,

因為如果他們有所發現， 他們會揭發我們。

because if they find out, you know, they will disclose this.

We also have transparency reports, by the way,

我們也有透明度報告，

我們在其中談到一大堆事情：

where we talk about a whole bunch of things,

the content that we remove, you know, that violates our guidelines,

我們移除的內容， 你知道，違反守則的內容、

government requests.

政府的要求。

You know, it's all published online.

這都公布在網路。

All you have to do is search for it.

你只需要去搜尋它。

克：我得說，你是非常讓人信服 且喜歡的執行長。

CA: So you're super compelling

and likable as a CEO, I have to say.

And I would like to, as we wrap this up,

我想要，在我們結束前，

I'd like to give you a chance just to paint, like, what's the vision?

我想給你一個機會 描繪你們的願景是什麼？

As you look at what TikTok could be,

當你在想抖音可以成為什麼，

let's move the clock out, say, five years from now.

比如說從現在開始五年之後。

How should we think about your contribution to our collective future?

我們應該如何看待 你對我們全體的未來的貢獻？

SC: I think it's still down to the vision that we have.

周：我認為這依然 要回到我們的願景。

So in terms of the window of discovery,

就成為發現的窗口而言，

I think there's a huge benefit to the world

我認為當人們可以發現新事物， 這對世界是很大的助益。

when people can discover new things.

You know, people think that TikTok is all about dancing and singing,

你知道，大家覺得 抖音都是跳舞唱歌，

and there’s nothing wrong with that, because it’s super fun.

這也沒有錯，因為這超級有趣。

There's still a lot of that,

抖音很多這類內容，

但我們看到科學、STEM 的內容。

but we're seeing science content, STEM content,

have you about BookTok?

你聽過「BookTok」嗎？

It's a viral trend that talks about books

這是一個爆紅的潮流，

它談論書籍並鼓勵大眾閱讀。

and encourages people to read.

That BookTok has 120 billion views globally,

BookTok 在全球 有 1200 億觀看次數，

120 billion.

1200 億。

CA: Billion, with a B.

克：是億。

SC: People are learning how to cook,

周：人們在學烹飪，人們在學科學，

people are learning about science,

people are learning how to golf --

人們在學打高爾夫球——

well, people are watching videos on golfing, I guess.

嗯，大家只是在看 高爾夫球影片，我猜。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I haven't gotten better by looking at the videos.

我的球技沒有因為 看這些影片而進步。

I think there's a huge, huge opportunity here on discovery

我認為這裡有非常大的機會去發現，

and giving the everyday person a voice.

並讓平凡人也可以發聲。

If you talk to our creators, you know,

如果你跟我們的創作者談談， 很多人會一再告訴你：

a lot of people will tell you this again and again, that before TikTok,

在有抖音之前，

they would never have been discovered.

他們絕對不可能被發現。

And we have given them the platform to do that.

我們給了他們平臺， 維持它是很重要的。

And it's important to maintain that.

然後我們談了創作。

Then we talk about creation.

You know, there’s all this new technology coming in with AI-generated content

你知道，隨著人工智慧生成內容 新科技的到來，

that will help people create even more creative content.

它會幫助人們創作出 更有創意的內容。

我認為兩者將會互相合作，

I think there's going to be a collaboration between,

and I think there's a speaker who is going to talk about this,

我想有一名講者會談這個主題，

在人類與人工智慧之間，

between people and AI

where they can unleash their creativity in a different way.

兩者如何以不同的方式激發創造力。

You know, like for example, I'm terrible at drawing personally,

你知道，舉個例子， 我個人很不會畫畫，

but if I had some AI to help me,

但如果我有某種人工智慧的幫忙，

then maybe I can express myself even better.

也許我可以更好地表達想法。

Then we talk about bridges to connect

我們談到連結的橋梁，

and connecting people and the communities together.

以及把眾人和社群連結在一起。

這可以是產品，可以有商機，

This could be products, this could be commerce,

five million businesses in the US benefit from TikTok today.

如今有 500 萬家 美國企業從抖音受惠。

I think we can get that number to a much higher number.

我認為我們可以 讓這個數字高得多。

And of course, if you look around the world, including in Canada,

當然，如果你看全世界， 包含加拿大，

這個數字將會非常大。

that number is going to be massive.

所以我認為這些是我們最大的機會，

So I think these are the biggest opportunities that we have,

而且這讓人相當興奮。

and it's really very exciting.

CA: So courtesy of your experience in Congress,

克：由於你在國會的經驗，

you actually became a bit of a TikTok star yourself, I think.

你自己其實也變得有點像 抖音上的明星，我認為。

Some of your videos have gone viral.

有些你的影片爆紅。

要不要…… 你有帶手機吧？

You've got your phone with you.

Do you want to make a little little TikTok video right now?

你現在想要拍一個 短短的抖音影片嗎？

Let's do this.

那就做吧！

SC: If you don't mind ...

周：若你不介意，

CA: What do you think, should we do this?

克：你覺得要嗎？ 周：我們來自拍如何？

SC: We're just going to do a selfie together, how's that?

克：好的。

So why don't we just say "Hi."

周：我們說聲「嗨」吧。

Hi!

嗨！

Audience: Hi!

克：TED 的哈囉。

CA: Hello from TED.

克：（笑聲）

SC: All right, thank you, I hope it goes viral.

周：好，謝謝，我希望它爆紅。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: If that one goes viral, I think I've given up on your algorithm, actually.

克：如果它可以爆紅， 我會放棄你的演算法。

（笑聲）

(Laughter)

Shou Chew, you're one of the most influential

周受資，你是世上 最有影響力的人之一，

and powerful people in the world, whether you know it or not.

無論你知不知道。

我非常感謝你過來分享你的願景。

And I really appreciate you coming and sharing your vision.

I really, really hope the upside of what you're talking about comes about.

我真的很希望 你談論的那些好處發生。

Thank you so much for coming today.

克：非常感謝你今天過來。 周：謝謝，克里斯。

SC: Thank you, Chris.

CA: It's really interesting.

克：這真的很有趣。

(Applause)

（掌聲）