Mammoths resurrected and other thoughts from a futurist | Stewart Brand and Chris Anderson

69,870 views ・ 2018-01-26

TED


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00:12
Chris Anderson: OK, Stewart,
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in the '60s, you -- I think it was '68 -- you founded this magazine.
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Stewart Brand: Bravo! It's the original one.
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That's hard to find.
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CA: Right. Issue One, right?
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SB: Mm hmm.
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CA: Why did that make so much impact?
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SB: Counterculture was the main event that I was part of at the time,
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and it was made up of hippies and New Left.
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That was sort of my contemporaries,
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the people I was just slightly older than.
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And my mode is to look at where the interesting flow is
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and then look in the other direction.
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CA: (Laughs)
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SB: Partly, I was trained to do that as an army officer,
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but partly, it's just a cheap heuristic to find originalities:
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don't look where everybody else is looking,
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look the opposite way.
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So the deal with counterculture is, the hippies were very romantic
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and kind of against technology,
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except very good LSD from Sandoz,
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and the New Left was against technology
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because they thought it was a power device.
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Computers were: do not spindle, fold, or mutilate.
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Fight that.
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And so, the Whole Earth Catalog was kind of a counter-counterculture thing
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in the sense that I bought Buckminster Fuller's idea
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that tools of are of the essence.
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Science and engineers basically define the world in interesting ways.
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If all the politicians disappeared one week,
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it would be ... a nuisance.
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But if all the scientists and engineers disappeared one week,
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it would be way more than a nuisance.
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CA: We still believe that, I think.
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SB: So focus on that.
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And then the New Left was talking about power to the people.
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And people like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak
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cut that and just said, power to people,
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tools that actually work.
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And so, where Fuller was saying don't try to change human nature,
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people have been trying for a long time and it does not even bend,
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but you can change tools very easily.
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So the efficient thing to do if you want to make the world better
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is not try to make people behave differently like the New Left was,
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but just give them tools that go in the right direction.
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That was the Whole Earth Catalog.
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CA: And Stewart, the central image -- this is one of the first images,
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the first time people had seen Earth from outer space.
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That had an impact, too.
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SB: It was kind of a chance that in the spring of '66,
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thanks to an LSD experience on a rooftop in San Francisco,
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I got thinking about, again, something that Fuller talked about,
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that a lot of people assume that the Earth is flat
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and kind of infinite in terms of its resources,
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but once you really grasp that it's a sphere
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and that there's only so much of it,
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then you start husbanding your resources
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and thinking about it as a finite system.
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"Spaceship Earth" was his metaphor.
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And I wanted that to be the case,
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but on LSD I was getting higher and higher on my hundred micrograms
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on the roof of San Francisco,
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and noticed that the downtown buildings which were right in front of me
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were not all parallel, they were sort of fanned out like this.
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And that's because they are on a curved surface.
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And if I were even higher, I would see that even more clearly,
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higher than that, more clearly still,
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higher enough, and it would close,
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and you would get the circle of Earth from space.
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And I thought, you know, we've been in space for 10 years --
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at that time, this is '66 --
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and the cameras had never looked back.
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They'd always been looking out or looking at just parts of the Earth.
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And so I said, why haven't we seen a photograph of the whole Earth yet?
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And it went around and NASA got it and senators, secretaries got it,
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and various people in the Politburo got it,
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and it went around and around.
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And within two and a half years,
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about the time the Whole Earth Catalog came out,
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these images started to appear,
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and indeed, they did transform everything.
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And my idea of hacking civilization
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is that you try to do something lazy and ingenious
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and just sort of trick the situation.
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So all of these photographs that you see --
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and then the march for science last week,
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they were carrying these Whole Earth banners and so on --
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I did that with no work.
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I sold those buttons for 25 cents apiece.
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So, you know, tweaking the system
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is, I think, not only the most efficient way to make the system go
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in interesting ways,
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but in some ways, the safest way,
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because when you try to horse the whole system around in a big way,
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you can get into big horsing-around problems,
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but if you tweak it, it will adjust to the tweak.
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CA: So since then, among many other things,
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you've been regarded as a leading voice in the environmental movement,
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but you are also a counterculturalist,
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and recently, you've been taking on a lot of,
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well, you've been declaring
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what a lot of environmentalists almost believe are heresies.
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I kind of want to explore a couple of those.
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I mean, tell me about this image here.
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SB: Ha-ha!
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That's a National Geographic image
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of what is called the mammoth steppe,
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what the far north, the sub-Arctic and Arctic region, used to look like.
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In fact, the whole world used to look like that.
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What we find in South Africa and the Serengeti now,
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lots of big animals,
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was the case in this part of Canada,
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throughout the US, throughout Eurasia, throughout the world.
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This was the norm
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and can be again.
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So in a sense,
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my long-term goal at this point is to not only bring back those animals
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and the grassland they made,
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which could be a climate stabilization system over the long run,
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but even the mammoths there in the background
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that are part of the story.
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And I think that's probably a 200-year goal.
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Maybe in 100, by the end of this century,
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we should be able to dial down the extinction rate
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to sort of what it's been in the background.
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Bringing back this amount of bio-abundance will take longer,
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but it's worth doing.
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CA: We'll come back to the mammoths,
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but explain how we should think of extinctions.
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Obviously, one of the huge concerns right now
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is that extinction is happening at a faster rate than ever in history.
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That's the meme that's out there.
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How should we think of it?
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SB: The story that's out there
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is that we're in the middle of the Sixth Extinction
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or maybe in the beginning of the Sixth Extinction.
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Because we're in the de-extinction business,
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the preventing-extinction business with Revive & Restore,
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we started looking at what's actually going on with extinction.
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And it turns out, there's a very confused set of data out there
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which gets oversimplified
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into the narrative of we're becoming ...
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Here are five mass extinctions that are indicated by the yellow triangles,
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and we're now next.
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The last one there on the far right
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was the meteor that struck 66 million years ago
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and did in the dinosaurs.
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And the story is, we're the next meteor.
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Well, here's the deal.
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I wound up researching this for a paper I wrote,
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that a mass extinction is when 75 percent of all the species
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in the world go extinct.
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Well, there's on the order of five-and-a-half-million species,
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of which we've identified one and a half million.
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Another 14,000 are being identified every year.
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There's a lot of biology going on out there.
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Since 1500,
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about 500 species have gone extinct,
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and you'll see the term "mass extinction" kind of used in strange ways.
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So there was, about a year and a half ago,
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a front-page story by Carl Zimmer in the New York Times,
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"Mass Extinction in the Oceans, Broad Studies Show."
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And then you read into the article, and it mentions that since 1500,
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15 species -- one, five -- have gone extinct in the oceans,
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and, oh, by the way, none in the last 50 years.
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And you read further into the story, and it's saying,
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the horrifying thing that's going on
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is that the fisheries are so overfishing the wild fishes,
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that it is taking down the fish populations in the oceans
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by 38 percent.
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That's the serious thing.
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None of those species are probably going to go extinct.
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So you've just put, that headline writer
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put a panic button
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on the top of the story.
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It's clickbait kind of stuff,
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but it's basically saying, "Oh my God, start panicking,
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we're going to lose all the species in the oceans."
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Nothing like that is in prospect.
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And in fact, what I then started looking into in a little more detail,
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the Red List shows about 23,000 species that are considered threatened
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at one level or another,
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coming from the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, the IUCN.
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And Nature Magazine had a piece surveying the loss of wildlife,
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and it said,
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"If all of those 23,000 went extinct
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in the next century or so,
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and that rate of extinction carried on for more centuries and millennia,
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then we might be at the beginning of a sixth extinction.
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So the exaggeration is way out of hand.
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But environmentalists always exaggerate.
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That's a problem.
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CA: I mean, they probably feel a moral responsibility to,
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because they care so much about the thing that they are looking at,
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and unless you bang the drum for it, maybe no one listens.
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SB: Every time somebody says moral this or moral that --
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"moral hazard," "precautionary principle" --
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these are terms that are used to basically say no to things.
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CA: So the problem isn't so much fish extinction, animal extinction,
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it's fish flourishing, animal flourishing,
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that we're crowding them to some extent?
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SB: Yeah, and I think we are crowding, and there is losses going on.
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The major losses are caused by agriculture,
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and so anything that improves agriculture and basically makes it more condensed,
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more highly productive,
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including GMOs, please,
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but even if you want to do vertical farms in town,
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including inside farms,
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all the things that have been learned about how to grow pot in basements,
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is now being applied to growing vegetables inside containers --
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that's great, that's all good stuff,
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because land sparing is the main thing we can do for nature.
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People moving to cities is good.
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Making agriculture less of a destruction of the landscape is good.
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CA: There people talking about bringing back species, rewilding ...
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Well, first of all, rewilding species: What's the story with these guys?
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SB: Ha-ha! Wolves.
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Europe, connecting to the previous point,
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we're now at probably peak farmland,
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and, by the way, in terms of population,
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we are already at peak children being alive.
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Henceforth, there will be fewer and fewer children.
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We are in the last doubling of human population,
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and it will get to nine, maybe nine and a half billion,
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and then start not just leveling off, but probably going down.
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Likewise, farmland has now peaked,
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and one of the ways that plays out in Europe
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is there's a lot of abandoned farmland now,
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which immediately reforests.
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They don't do wildlife corridors in Europe.
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They don't need to, because so many of these farms are connected
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that they've made reforested wildlife corridors,
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that the wolves are coming back, in this case, to Spain.
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They've gotten all the way to the Netherlands.
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There's bears coming back. There's lynx coming back.
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There's the European jackal. I had no idea such a thing existed.
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They're coming back from Italy to the rest of Europe.
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And unlike here, these are all predators, which is kind of interesting.
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They are being welcomed by Europeans. They've been missed.
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CA: And counterintuitively, when you bring back the predators,
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it actually increases rather than reduces
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the diversity of the underlying ecosystem often.
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SB: Yeah, generally predators and large animals --
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large animals and large animals with sharp teeth and claws --
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are turning out to be highly important for a really rich ecosystem.
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CA: Which maybe brings us to this rather more dramatic rewilding project
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that you've got yourself involved in.
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Why would someone want to bring back these terrifying woolly mammoths?
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SB: Hmm. Asian elephants are the closest relative
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to the woolly mammoth,
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and they're about the same size, genetically very close.
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They diverged quite recently in evolutionary history.
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The Asian elephants are closer to woolly mammoths
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than they are to African elephants,
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but they're close enough to African elephants
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that they have successfully hybridized.
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So we're working with George Church at Harvard,
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who has already moved the genes for four major traits
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from the now well-preserved, well-studied genome of the woolly mammoth,
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thanks to so-called "ancient DNA analysis."
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And in the lab, he has moved those genes into living Asian elephant cell lines,
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where they're taking up their proper place thanks to CRISPR.
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I mean, they're not shooting the genes in like you did with genetic engineering.
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Now with CRISPR you're editing, basically, one allele,
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and replacing it in the place of another allele.
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So you're now getting basically Asian elephant germline cells
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that are effectively in terms of the traits that you're going for
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to be comfortable in the Arctic,
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you're getting them in there.
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So we go through the process
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of getting that through a surrogate mother,
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an Asian elephant mother.
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You can get a proxy, as it's being called by conservation biologists,
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of the woolly mammoth,
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that is effectively a hairy, curly-trunked, Asian elephant
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that is perfectly comfortable in the sub-Arctic.
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Now, it's the case, so many people say,
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"Well, how are you going to get them there?
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And Asian elephants, they don't like snow, right?"
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Well, it turns out, they do like snow.
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There's some in an Ontario zoo
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that have made snowballs bigger than people.
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They just love -- you know, with a trunk, you can start a little thing,
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roll it and make it bigger.
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And then people say,
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"Yeah, but it's 22 months of gestation.
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This kind of cross-species cloning is tricky business, anyway.
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Are you going to lose some of the surrogate Asian elephant mothers?"
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And then George Church says, "That's all right.
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We'll do an artificial uterus and grow them that way."
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Then people say, "Yeah, next century, maybe,"
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except the news came out this week in Nature
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that there's now an artificial uterus in which they've grown a lamb
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to four weeks.
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That's halfway through its gestation period.
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So this stuff is moving right along.
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CA: But why should we want a world where --
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Picture a world where there are thousands of these things
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thundering across Siberia.
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Is that a better world?
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SB: Potentially. It's --
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(Laughter)
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There's three groups, basically, working on the woolly mammoth seriously:
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Revive & Restore, we're kind of in the middle;
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George Church and the group at Harvard that are doing the genetics in the lab;
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and then there's an amazing old scientist named Zimov
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who works in northern Siberia,
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and his son Nikita, who has bought into the system,
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and they are, Sergey and Nikita Zimov have been, for 25 years,
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creating what they call "Pleistocene Park,"
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which is a place in a really tough part of Siberia that is pure tundra.
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And the research that's been done shows
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that there's probably one one-hundredth of the animals on the landscape there
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that there used to be.
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Like that earlier image, we saw lots of animals.
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Now there's almost none.
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The tundra is mostly moss, and then there's the boreal forest.
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And that's the way it is, folks. There's just a few animals there.
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So they brought in a lot of grazing animals:
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musk ox, Yakutian horses, they're bringing in some bison,
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they're bringing in some more now,
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and put them in at the density that they used to be.
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And grasslands are made by grazers.
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So these animals are there, grazing away,
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and they're doing a couple of things.
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First of all, they're turning the tundra, the moss, back into grassland.
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Grassland fixes carbon.
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Tundra, in a warming world, is thawing and releasing a lot of carbon dioxide
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and also methane.
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So already in their little 25 square miles,
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they're doing a climate stabilization thing.
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Part of that story, though,
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is that the boreal forest is very absorbent to sunlight,
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even in the winter when snow is on the ground.
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And the way the mammoth steppe,
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which used to wrap all the way around the North Pole --
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there's a lot of landmass around the North Pole --
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that was all this grassland.
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17:01
And the steppe was magnificent,
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probably one of the most productive biomes in the world,
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the biggest biome in the world.
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The forest part of it, right now, Sergey Zimov and Nikita
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go out with this old military tank they got for nothing,
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and they knock down the trees.
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And that's a bore, and it's tiresome,
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and as Sergey says, "... and they make no dung!"
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17:26
which, by the way, these big animals do, including mammoths.
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So mammoths become what conservation biologists call
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17:32
an umbrella species.
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It's an exciting animal -- pandas in China or wherever --
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17:37
that the excitement that goes on of making life good for that animal
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is making a habitat, an ecosystem,
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17:44
which is good for a whole lot of creatures and plants,
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17:47
and it ideally gets to the point of being self-managing,
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17:50
where the conservation biologists can back off and say,
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17:53
"All we have to do is keep out the destructive invasives,
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17:56
and this thing can just cook."
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17:58
CA: So there's many other species that you're dreaming of de-extincting
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18:02
at some point,
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but I think what I'd actually like to move on to
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18:06
is this idea you talked about how mammoths might help
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18:10
green Siberia in a sense,
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18:12
or at least, I'm not talking about tropical rainforest,
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18:18
but this question of greening the planet you've thought about a lot.
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3881
18:22
And the traditional story is
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that deforestation is one of the most awful curses
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18:30
of modern times,
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18:32
and that it's a huge contributor to climate change.
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18:36
And then you went and sent me this graph here, or this map.
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18:39
What is this map?
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18:41
SB: Global greening.
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18:43
The thing to do with any narrative that you get from headlines
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18:47
and from short news stories
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18:49
is to look for what else is going on,
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18:52
and look for what Marc Andreessen calls "narrative violation."
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18:57
So the narrative -- and Al Gore is master of putting it out there --
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is that there's this civilization-threatening
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19:06
climate change coming on very rapidly.
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We have to cease all extra production of greenhouse gases, especially CO2,
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19:15
as soon as possible,
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19:16
otherwise, we're in deep, deep trouble.
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19:18
All of that is true, but it's not the whole story,
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19:21
and the whole story is more interesting than these fragmentary stories.
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19:25
Plants love CO2.
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19:28
What plants are made of is CO2 plus water via sunshine.
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19:32
And so in many greenhouses, industrialized greenhouses,
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19:37
they add CO2 because the plants turn that into plant matter.
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3266
19:41
So the studies have been done with satellites and other things,
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3030
19:44
and what you're seeing here is a graph of, over the last 33 years or so,
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19:48
there's 14 percent more leaf action going on.
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19:54
There's that much more biomass.
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1604
19:56
There's that much more what ecologists call "primary production."
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3142
19:59
There's that much more life happening,
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1945
20:01
thanks to climate change,
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20:02
thanks to all of our goddam coal plants.
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2852
20:05
So -- whoa, what's going on here?
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20:08
By the way, crop production goes up with this.
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3615
20:11
This is a partial counter
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4278
20:16
to the increase of CO2,
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3260
20:19
because there's that much more plant that is sucking it down
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3361
20:22
into plant matter.
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1335
20:24
Some of that then decays and goes right back up,
401
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2298
20:26
but some of it is going down into roots
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1942
20:28
and going into the soil and staying there.
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2046
20:30
So these counter things are part of what you need to bear in mind,
404
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3863
20:34
and the deeper story is
405
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1717
20:36
that thinking about and dealing with and engineering climate
406
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4857
20:41
is a pretty complex process.
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2217
20:43
It's like medicine.
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1706
20:45
You're always, again, tweaking around with the system
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3220
20:48
to see what makes an improvement.
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1976
20:50
Then you do more of that, see it's still getting better,
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2688
20:53
then -- oop! -- that's enough, back off half a turn.
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2457
20:56
CA: But might some people say, "Not all green is created equal."
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3008
20:59
Possibly what we're doing is trading off the magnificence of the rainforest
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3533
21:02
and all that diversity
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1152
21:03
for, I don't know, green pond scum or grass or something like that.
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3200
21:07
SB: In this particular study, it turns out every form of plant is increasing.
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3648
21:10
Now, what's interestingly left out of this study
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2254
21:12
is what the hell is going on in the oceans.
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2026
21:15
Primary production in the oceans,
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1818
21:16
the biota of the oceans, mostly microbial,
421
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3132
21:20
what they're up to is probably the most important thing.
422
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2684
21:22
They're the ones that create the atmosphere
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2048
21:24
that we're happily breathing,
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1807
21:26
and they're not part of this study.
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1821
21:29
This is one of the things James Lovelock has been insisting;
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2906
21:31
basically, our knowledge of the oceans, especially of ocean life,
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3431
21:35
is fundamentally vapor, in this sense.
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2127
21:37
So we're in the process of finding out
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2040
21:39
by inadvertent bad geoengineering of too much CO2 in the atmosphere,
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5239
21:44
finding out, what is the ocean doing with that?
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2331
21:47
Well, the ocean, with the extra heat,
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1898
21:49
is swelling up.
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1301
21:50
That's most of where we're getting the sea level rise,
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2538
21:53
and there's a lot more coming with more global warming.
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2632
21:55
We're getting terrible harm to some of the coral reefs,
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4418
22:00
like off of Australia.
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1801
22:02
The great reef there is just a lot of bleaching from overheating.
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4309
22:06
And this is why I and Danny Hillis, in our previous session on the main stage,
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6455
22:13
was saying, "Look, geoengineering is worth experimenting with enough
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4366
22:17
to see that it works,
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1486
22:19
to see if we can buy time in the warming aspect of all of this,
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4475
22:24
tweak the system with small but usable research,
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4767
22:29
and then see if we should do more than tweak.
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2312
22:32
CA: OK, so this is what we're going to talk about
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2393
22:34
for the last few minutes here
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1435
22:35
because it's such an important discussion.
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2046
22:38
First of all, this book was just published by Yuval Harari.
448
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3745
22:41
He's basically saying the next evolution of humans is to become as gods.
449
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4145
22:46
I think he --
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1151
22:47
SB: Now, you've talked to him. And you've probably finished the book.
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3312
22:50
I haven't finished it yet.
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1286
22:51
Where does he come out on --
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22:53
CA: I mean, it's a pretty radical view.
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4162
22:57
He thinks that we will completely remake ourselves
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3424
23:00
using data, using bioengineering,
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3475
23:04
to become completely new creatures
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2140
23:06
that have, kind of, superpowers,
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2026
23:08
and that there will be huge inequality.
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3232
23:11
But we're about to write a very radical, brand-new chapter of history.
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5273
23:17
That's what he believes.
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1572
23:18
SB: Is he nervous about that? I forget.
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1943
23:20
CA: He's nervous about it,
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2441
23:23
but I think he also likes provoking people.
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2892
23:26
SB: Are you nervous about that?
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1985
23:28
CA: I'm nervous about that.
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1418
23:29
But, you know, with so much at TED, I'm excited and nervous.
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4065
23:33
And the optimist in me is trying hard to lean towards
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3756
23:37
"This is awesome and really exciting,"
469
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2088
23:39
while the sort of responsible part of me is saying,
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2439
23:42
"But, uh, maybe we should be a little bit careful
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2339
23:44
as to how we think of it."
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1323
23:45
SB: That's your secret sauce, isn't it, for TED?
473
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2372
23:48
Staying nervous and excited.
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1576
23:50
CA: It's also the recipe for being a little bit schizophrenic.
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3188
23:54
But he didn't quote you.
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4685
23:58
What I thought was an astonishing statement that you made
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2740
24:01
right back in the original Whole Earth Catalog,
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4253
24:05
you ended it with this powerful phrase:
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3200
24:09
"We are as gods, and might as well get good at it."
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3441
24:12
And then more recently, you've upgraded that statement.
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24:15
I want you talk about this philosophy.
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1824
24:17
SB: Well, one of the things I'm learning is that documentation
483
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3615
24:20
is better than memory -- by far.
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2992
24:23
And one of the things I've learned from somebody --
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2965
24:26
I actually got on Twitter.
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2655
24:29
It changed my life -- it hasn't forgiven me yet!
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3700
24:33
And I took ownership of this phrase when somebody quoted it,
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4002
24:37
and somebody else said,
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1556
24:38
"Oh by the way, that isn't what you originally wrote
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2463
24:41
in that first 1968 Whole Earth Catalog.
491
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2767
24:44
You wrote, 'We are as gods and might as well get used to it.'"
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3068
24:47
I'd forgotten that entirely.
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2261
24:49
The stories -- these goddam stories -- the stories we tell ourselves
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24:52
become lies over time.
495
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1816
24:55
So, documentation helps cut through that.
496
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2793
24:57
It did move on to "We are as gods and might as well get good at it,"
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3239
25:01
and that was the Whole Earth Catalog.
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1885
25:03
By the time I was doing a book called "Whole Earth Discipline:
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3064
25:06
An Ecopragmatist Manifesto,"
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2366
25:08
and in light of climate change, basically saying that we are as gods
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3192
25:11
and have to get good at it.
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1599
25:13
CA: We are as gods and have to get good at it.
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25:15
So talk about that, because the psychological reaction
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3559
25:19
from so many people as soon as you talk about geoengineering
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3154
25:22
is that the last thing they believe is that humans should be gods --
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3261
25:25
some of them for religious reasons,
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1884
25:27
but most just for humility reasons,
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2921
25:30
that the systems are too complex,
509
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1621
25:32
we should not be dabbling that way.
510
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2659
25:35
SB: Well, this is the Greek narrative about hubris.
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3939
25:39
And once you start getting really sure of yourself,
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25:42
you wind up sleeping with your mother.
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2657
25:45
(Laughter)
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2618
25:48
CA: I did not expect you would say that.
515
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2001
25:50
(Laughter)
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1667
25:53
SB: That's the Oedipus story.
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2588
25:56
Hubris is a really important cautionary tale to always have at hand.
518
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5354
26:03
One of the guidelines I've kept for myself is:
519
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3782
26:07
every day I ask myself how many things I am dead wrong about.
520
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4519
26:13
And I'm a scientist by training
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3089
26:16
and getting to work with scientists these days,
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2319
26:18
which is pure joy.
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1247
26:20
Science is organized skepticism.
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3072
26:24
So you're always insisting
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3536
26:27
that even when something looks pretty good,
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3399
26:31
you maintain a full set of not only suspicions
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3362
26:35
about whether it's as good as it looks,
528
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2095
26:37
but: What else is going on?
529
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26:38
So this "What else is going?" on query,
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3322
26:42
I think, is how you get away from fake news.
531
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4103
26:46
It's not necessarily real news,
532
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2504
26:50
but it's welcomely more complex news
533
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26:54
that you're trying to take on.
534
1614347
1537
26:55
CA: But coming back to the application of this just for the environment:
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3461
26:59
it seems like the philosophy of this is that, whether we like it or not,
536
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3440
27:02
we are already dominating so many aspects of what happens on planets,
537
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3443
27:06
and we're doing it unintentionally,
538
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1692
27:08
so we really should start doing it intentionally.
539
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4381
27:12
What would it look like to start getting good at being a god?
540
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3983
27:16
How should we start doing that?
541
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2020
27:18
Are there small-scale experiments or systems we can nudge and play with?
542
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3896
27:22
How on earth do we think about it?
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1959
27:24
SB: The mentor that sort of freed me
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1803
27:26
from total allegiance to Buckminster Fuller
545
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2280
27:28
was Gregory Bateson.
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1776
27:30
And Gregory Bateson was an epistemologist and anthropologist and biologist
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6522
27:37
and psychologist and many other things,
548
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1889
27:39
and he looked at how systems basically look at themselves.
549
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5099
27:44
And that is, I think, part of how you want to always be looking at things.
550
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5515
27:49
And what I like about David Keith's approach to geoengineering
551
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27:53
is you don't just haul off and do it.
552
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1885
27:56
David Keith's approach --
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1287
27:57
and this is what Danny Hillis was talking about earlier --
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3097
28:00
is that you do it really, really incrementally,
555
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2445
28:02
you do some stuff to tweak the system, see how it responds,
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3869
28:06
that tells you something about the system.
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2021
28:08
That's responding to the fact that people say, quite rightly,
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"What are we talking about here?
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We don't understand how the climate system works.
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You can't engineer a system you don't understand."
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28:20
And David says, "Well, that certainly applies to the human body,
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and yet medicine goes ahead, and we're kind of glad that it has."
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The way you engineer a system that is so large and complex
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28:31
that you can't completely understand it
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28:33
is you tweak it,
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28:34
and this is kind of an anti-hubristic approach.
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28:37
This is: try a little bit here,
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28:39
back the hell off if it's an issue,
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28:41
expand it if it seems to go OK,
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28:43
meanwhile, have other paths going forward.
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28:45
This is the whole argument for diversity and dialogue and all these other things
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28:49
and the things we were hearing about earlier with Sebastian [Thrun].
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28:53
So the non-hubristic approach is looking for social license,
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28:59
which is a terminology that I think is a good one,
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29:02
of including society enough
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2147
29:04
in these interesting, problematic, deep issues
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29:08
that they get to have a pretty good idea
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29:12
and have people that they trust paying close attention
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29:15
to the sequence of experiments as it's going forward,
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29:19
the public dialogue as it's going forward --
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29:22
which is more public than ever, which is fantastic --
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29:25
and you feel your way,
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29:28
you just ooze your way along,
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29:30
and this is the muddle-through approach that has worked pretty well so far.
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29:34
The reason that Sebastian and I are optimistic is we read
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29:38
people like Steven Pinker, "The Better Angels of Our Nature,"
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29:42
and so far, so good.
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29:45
Now, that can always change,
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29:48
but you can build a lot on that sense of: things are capable of getting better,
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29:54
figure out the tools that made that happen and apply those further.
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29:57
That's the story.
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29:59
CA: Stewart, I think on that optimistic note,
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we're actually going to wrap up.
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I am in awe of how you always are willing to challenge yourself
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30:08
and other people.
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30:10
I feel like this recipe for never allowing yourself to be too certain
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30:15
is so powerful.
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30:17
I want to learn it more for myself,
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30:19
and it's been very insightful and inspiring, actually,
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30:23
listening to you today.
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Stewart Brand, thank you so much.
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SB: Thank you.
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(Applause)
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