Robin Hood: Fact or Fiction - Interview with Alastair (Leonardo English)

Anna: Hello and welcome to the English Like a Native podcast,

the podcast that's designed for lovers and learners of English.

I'm your host, Anna, and today we're heading into Sherwood Forest.

Today I am joined by a special guest, a fellow podcaster who is dedicated

to helping listeners to improve their English while teaching them

interesting things about the world.

He is a tonic for curious minds.

I'm very pleased to welcome Alastair Budge from Leonardo English.

Hello, Alastair.

Alastair: Hi, Anna.

It's uh, it's wonderful to be here.

Thank you so much for inviting me on.

Anna: Oh, you are more than welcome.

First things first, I'm a little bit confused.

You are Alastair, but your Leonardo English, is that a pseudonym?

Alastair: So it, it's turned into a bit of a pseudonym, even though I didn't

intend for it to be a pseudonym at all.

Lots of people email me, um, saying, you know, "Hello, Mr.

Leonardo", or "Alastair Leonardo", or things like that.

I never thought that would happen.

Leonardo English is the company and we make podcasts.

So, I didn't want to limit myself to being the Leonardo English

podcast or the Alastair Budge podcast or anything like that.

So yeah, it's a strange thing that I never expected to happen, but people

seem to have turned me into Leonardo.

Anna: What is a pseudonym?

Could you explain to us what a pseudonym is?

A lot of authors use pseudonyms.

Alastair: Sure.

So a pseudonym is a pen name, a name that someone might give themselves,

to disguise their identity really.

To give them, give themselves a new name because they don't want to use

their original name for whatever reasons.

So, as you said, lots of authors, start with pseudonyms.

So, there's lots of authors that people...

They might have heard of them and not even known that this was a pseudonym.

So people like George Orwell, for example, that's not his real name.

Anna: Really?

Alastair: No, his...

Anna: I didn't know that.

Alastair: His name is, Eric Arthur Blair.

Lewis Carroll, that's not his name either.

His name is Charles Dodgson.

Joseph Conrad.

Even to a certain extent, J.K.

Rowling is a kind of pseudonym.

Because she didn't want to use her, her full name.

So lots of authors use different, different names for a whole

variety of different reasons.

I found out also this morning that, Neruda, Pablo Neruda, who is, a Chilean

author, that's not his real name either.

So, it's kind of interesting to, to see the different reasons

that people use pseudonyms.

And also to look at how they make up their own pseudonyms as well.

Anna: You primarily have a, a podcast rather than, you do

have a YouTube channel, but your main focus is your podcast.

Alastair: Indeed.

Anna: You've been going for a long time.

When did you start?

Was it 2019?

Alastair: Uh, 2019, yeah, the end of 2019.

So been going for three and a half years now.

Yeah.

So...

Anna: Okay.

And it's called English Learning for Curious Minds.

Can you tell me a bit more about the podcast and what people can expect

if they haven't yet discovered it?

Alastair: Sure.

It's a podcast about weird and wonderful things.

So, I spend, most of my time researching historical figures, ideas, kind of

events from history, that kind of stuff.

And package those up into kind of neat 15 to 20-minute episodes where I talk about

something that is interesting and fun.

So, it can be anything from the wives of Henry VII through to,

you know, the French Revolution.

Talking about the, the changing attitudes towards milk, a whole

variety of different things.

It's really an outlet for my own curiosity, things that

I'm interested in myself.

And yeah, it's like a narrative-led podcast.

So it's, it's just me.

If you, if you don't like my voice, then you should definitely

will not like the podcast.

Um, but, uh, that is, that's what I've been doing.

I've been making two episodes a week, for three and a half years,

so almost at 400 episodes now.

Anna: I bet you're like an encyclopaedia now, I'll take you to the pub quiz.

You'd ace it.

Alastair: Yeah.

I, I, I think if I had a better memory then, then, then I certainly would

be, but, uh, I quite often once I've finished sort, getting really deep into a

subject, then I move on to the next one.

And a bit like a goldfish.

I've forgotten everything.

Anna: So when you were at school, what were your favourite subjects?

Was history something that you kind of excelled in and were interested in?

Alastair: Yeah I really liked history.

I actually did languages at university, so

Anna: Right.

Alastair: I studied French and Italian.

Anna: Fantastic.

With your, uh, podcast, you're two a week, you've actually

kind of diverged a little bit.

You've been working on a very special project.

Do you want to tell me a bit more about it?

Explain to our listeners what it is, this special project

that you are about to release?

Alastair: Sure.

So, uh, the, the special project actually is starring Anna.

So if you like, if you like listening to Anna, which of course everyone

does, and if especially if you are listening to this podcast, then

I hope you'll like this as well.

So the, the, this new, uh, podcast series, in fact, someone called it an

audio drama the other day, which I, I think I'm gonna stick with that term.

It's a eight-part audio drama about a group of time travelling friends,

people who go back in time to a, a place and time of their choosing and

get up to all sorts of adventures.

So it's called, Pioneers of the Continuum.

And yeah, it'll be released on May the 23rd.

It's a super exciting project.

I haven't done anything like this before, but the reaction so far has

been, has been really, really positive.

And the most exciting thing about it for, for me, is that it's given me a

chance to collaborate with people like you, Anna, and lots of other amazing kind

of, YouTube and, podcast, personality...

Celebrities I guess I could, I...

I...

I could say.

So...

Anna: YouTube celebrities.

Podcast celebrities.

Alastair: Exactly.

Anna: Can you give us an idea of some of the other people who are involved?

Alastair: Sure.

So the, the first episode has Luke from Luke's English podcast.

The...

Anna: Ah, we love Luke.

Alastair: Of course, everyone loves Luke.

Uh, and the second one has Andrew from Culips English podcast.

The third has Lindsay from All Ears English.

Anna: Oh, yes.

Alastair: The fourth has, let me just get this right, it's, uh,

Tom from Thinking in English.

The fifth is you, Anna.

Anna: Yep.

Alastair: Yeah.

Number five.

This is in the order that they come.

So this isn't by no means some kind of ranking.

Then after you is Ariel from Easy Stories in English.

And episode seven and eight are actually narrated by the same character, and

that's Christian from Kangaroo English.

Anna: Brilliant.

Alastair: So...

Anna: So a real, a real eclectic mix of personalities and voices as well.

So I think I'm really interested to hear, I, I mean, I have heard the

trailer, which we can actually share...

Should we share that now?

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Should we share that now?

Alastair: Yeah, certainly.

Certainly.

Anna & Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Okay, fantastic.

The Trailer: Launching on May the 23rd.

Pioneers of the Continuum, a time-travelling story for English

learners, featuring your favourite English language podcasters.

I was travelling back 100 years to 1939.

My mission?

I was going to kill Adolf Hitler.

When he heard me refer to Caesar in this way, Valerius spun around and held

his gladius to my throat, his face a matter of centimetres away from me.

"Oh..."

I said.

Like jigsaw puzzle pieces locking into place, a picture began to form.

I shouldn't have come here.

I shouldn't have meddled.

I'm not sure if she liked my smell - deodorant and aftershave, but she

certainly smelled like someone who hadn't spent much time in the shower.

I found myself in a cold and damp warehouse.

Exactly as planned.

I was in the men's toilets - also as planned.

I knew that it would be empty in the middle of a suffragettes' meeting.

"What are you doing in there with my goat?"

I...

er...

I think I had a little bit too much wine and must have fallen asleep."

Will the future be a "utopia" - a perfect world where people

live in peace and harmony, or a "dystopia" - a broken, destroyed

world where humans live in misery.

Anna: Brilliant.

Well, I'm def..., I'm definitely excited about the launch of this

project and just remind us where, where and when can we start to hear

these, these episodes being released?

Alastair: So May the 23rd is when the first three will come out.

And then there'll be one a week every Tuesday.

It will be for the remaining five weeks.

And that's it.

It's a, a kind of, a one time, release.

Um, and may maybe we'll make more.

Who knows?

Anna: And, um, I'll put a link for anyone watching or listening.

I'll put a link in the show notes so that you can, uh, access this.

And if you're listening in the future, this is 2023, so if you're

listening years from now, then you can access it all straight away.

No need to wait.

That's very exciting.

Alastair: Indeed.

Anna: How did you find, uh, reaching out to people to collaborate with?

Because you know, a lot of people listening to my podcast are our

English teachers themselves or online creators of sorts and, you know, maybe

feel a bit nervous about collaborating with other creators, feel nervous

about reaching out to creators they haven't yet connected with.

How did you find that process of connecting with, um, with other creators

and, and, you know, like bearing your soul, basically asking them to, to

come and, and take part in your work?

Alastair: So I, I was as nervous about, you know, writing these emails

and hitting send as I'm sure people listening to, to this might be.

But I, I thought, what's the worst that could happen?

That, I mean, the worst that could happen is someone doesn't respond to my emails.

And fortunately the reactions seemed to be quite positive.

And I think I'd designed the way in which the, the series would be recorded in such

a way that it wouldn't require, you know, it doesn't require people to all get in

a room at the same time or spend endless meetings on Zoom trying to arrange things.

Hopefully it was designed in such a way that it could be done without

people spending too much time.

And I hope it was a fun project for people to be in...

involved with, that people can look back on this and think, you know, we've

created something together that is gonna be valuable and helpful and interesting.

And yeah, I was nervous trying to get people to actually, uh, say

'yes', but fortunately people did.

And the, the result is, as, as I hope people will, will, will see

a kind of all-star cast, I think.

And I, I, I only say it's an all-star cast because I'm actually not in it.

I've written myself out of the, um, of the script.

Anna: Oh, you should have given yourself a little cameo.

Alastair: Yeah, I, I...

Anna: So that you could be one voice in the background.

Alastair: Maybe I should go and do some editing and kind of make

some background noise or something.

Just, uh...

Anna: The wind voiced by me.

It was really good fun.

I love doing voiceover, which is what kind of drew me to doing

podcasts, was I just love sitting with a microphone and, and just, you

know, making sound, I love voice.

Uh, and then when you could be creative with that as well.

Alastair: Hmm.

Anna: That was really good fun.

Um, although I have to admit that one of the character voices, I got confused

between two characters halfway through and I switched their voice types and

then at the end I reaised I'd done it.

So I had to go back and redo.

So that was my bad.

Alastair: I, I could tell when, when listening to it that you, you know,

you had a, a background in acting and you are clearly comfortable

being on, I guess, virtual stage.

I guess you could, you could say, uh, mouth stage.

That sounds weird, but, uh, but, but, uh, but, but yeah, that you are, you

are comfortable doing voice acting.

Anna: Yeah, it's, it's really good fun.

Really good fun.

Okay, so we've talked about this project when and where people can find it.

But let's now go further, a little deeper into kind of stories and creative writing.

Uh, something that that came to mind recently was the story of Robin Hood.

Now this is one of the best known tales in English folklore.

Everyone knows the story of Robin Hood.

From my naive point of view, I've always assumed that Robin Hood was, you know,

an exact historical, uh, figure that, you know, there must be lots of chronicles

and, and historical papers that document all the adventures of Robin Hood, and

that's why we've got so many, you know, plays and films and and and whatnot.

But then I realised, when looking a little bit deeper, that Robin Hood?

Hmm.

There's a little bit, um, what's the word?

There's, there's not, there's not so much certainty around

whether or not he is real.

Now you are familiar with Robin Hood, right?

Alastair: Uh, yes.

I actually made an episode on The Truth Behind The Tale of Robin Hood.

That was quite a while ago, so I can't recite it all, recite it all now.

But yeah, there's a huge amount of debate about who he was, whether he

actually existed at all, whether he existed in the, the form that exists

in the kind of popular, popular memory.

And how these ideas of who Robin Hood might have been, if he even existed,

how they've changed over the years.

So yeah, it, it's a...

Anna: Yeah.

Alastair: It is a really fascinating and interesting example of how there

might have been some kind of historical seed, some sort of character that could

have been a little bit like Robin Hood.

And then over time people like telling stories, of course.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Alastair: And uh, someone tells the story and then someone else

tells the story to someone else.

And then, then before you know it, you have this kind of myth where people

always like to exaggerate stuff, right?

Always like to...

Anna: Yeah.

Alastair: ...add kind of extra numbers of soldiers that were killed

or, uh, you know, extra daring acts that happened or, you know,

they add in kind of love interests.

Um, so maid Marian, the female love interest that people think of in,

in Robin Hood, as far as I recall, there's no kind of historical evidence

of that person existing at all.

But of course it makes for a good story and in most modern versions

of the Robin Hood story, there is some sort of love interest.

So it's, it's a great example of how there may have been someone who did

things that are similar to what we think of as, uh, kind of Robin Hood type acts

in the past, but it probably didn't.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Alastair: The story as we remember, probably didn't quite

happen in, in the same way.

Anna: For people who don't know about Robin Hood.

Robin Hood is, is famed as a, an outlaw.

So an outlaw, like a, a criminal, someone who would, um, wait by the side

of the road like a highwayman really.

He would wait by the side of the road and then rob the, the rich

folk travelling down the road.

But then he's famed for giving that, that money to the poor.

So he would steal from the rich to give to the poor.

So he's, he's shown as being a good guy who's kind of at odds with authority.

His nemesis is the Sheriff of Nottingham.

Right?

Who, you know, represents law and order, but is corrupt.

And I think this is a story that a lot of people can kind of relate to, isn't it?

The idea of authoritative figures being corrupted and then someone,

just a, a man of the people trying to kind of fight against that.

So then stealing from the rich to, to give back to the poor,

to give back to the people.

But then I always wondered, you know, we are really kind of holding up a criminal

and saying, isn't this a good guy?

This is a good guy.

He's a noble chap.

And he, he, even though he, even though he's breaking the law and stealing

from people, he's good in essence.

Alastair: I guess one of the reasons that it is such a, a kind of popular

idea and kind of captures people's imagination is 'cause that...

it's kind of subverting what you think should be the case because the,

the figure of law and order is bad.

And the criminal is good.

And it gets you thinking about, you know, what is the, what is the relationship

between normal people and the law, and what happens when it's in fact, criminals

who are, who are in charge of the law and normal good people who are doing

good things, who are cast as criminals.

So it kind of...

It flips your idea of what reality should be.

Um, and that's probably one of the, one of the reasons that

it's such a, persuasive story.

And I, I know there are Robin Hood type legends in lots of

different cultures as well.

This idea of kind of person who, you know, used to be good, used to be

popular, and then suddenly you have a fall from grace and you are, you're cast

out and there's someone bad in power.

And it's his story of kind of fighting, um, fighting to get back

to where he rightfully belongs.

Anna: It's interesting what you said.

You know, the idea that if, if we made the world black and white, so this is

good and this is bad, criminals are bad.

And the law, the law and order people, the police, the governments, they are good.

Then it's not very interesting, is it?

It's the interesting things come from the grey areas.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Where something isn't just simply black and white there, there's more to it.

So when someone commits a crime, they're not inherently bad.

And, and I think there's been a lot of debate in the UK recently about

what to do in the, in the prison systems because we don't have enough

room for all the prisoners that are, that are going through the system.

And so it's like, well, what?

What do you do with them and is locking them up a good idea?

Does it work when you lock someone up for 15 years?

Will they come out a changed person or are they just going to re-offend because

they have become, you know, a part of the system and that's all they know.

Um, does rehabilitation work?

And the grey areas come from like not knowing and them being a little

bit good and a little bit bad and, and exploring that, and that's what

makes us human isn't, it's that.

Alastair: Mm-hmm.

Yeah!

Anna: We're getting, we're completely going off the top...

off the topic.

Alastair: That's okay.

We're getting to the, the, the rights and wrongs of prison sentencing.

Anna: I think creative writing is at its best when you are really getting

people to think and to question what they believe as being right and wrong

and what's, you know, the, the way you believe things to be when you start to

question your own beliefs and your own understanding of things, then that's

where I think creative writing really works well and where, you know, films

that move you and leave you thinking afterwards that change your point of view.

I think that's where it's at its best.

Okay.

So in Robin Hood, we have the characters we've talked about.

We've got the, the nemesis, uh, Sheriff of Nottingham.

Robin Hood also had his band of Merry Men.

Which were his group of, uh...

There were a group of outlaws who all lived in Sherwood Forest, but he had his,

his main guy called Little John who, in the films he tends to be actually a big

guy, even though he is called Little John.

It's this...

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: It's like sarcastic naming.

Alastair: And he's a, in the Disney version, he's a bear, I believe.

Anna: Yes.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: And, and Robin, robin in the Disney version is...

Alastair: A fox.

Anna: Yeah.

Alastair: I think, I think he's a fox.

Normally thought of as kind of sly, tricky animals.

And clearly that's not the, the character of, of Robin Hood.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Anna: Yeah.

Sly fox, cunning, clever fox.

Alastair: Yeah.

And, uh, Maid Marian is also a fox, I believe in the Disney one.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Alastair: I think so.

Anna & Alastair: Foxy.

Foxy.

Anna: Foxy Maid Marian.

Alastair: A foxy Maid Marian indeed.

And there's a, there's Friar Tuck as well.

Uh, so a friar for people who might not know is, ,is a type of religious figure.

And this also is a kind of subversion of expectations because you wouldn't

necessarily think of a religious figure.

Kind of being in the same group as a criminal.

So...

Anna: Yeah.

Alastair: ...all adds together to kind of question your understanding of reality.

Anna: Yeah, 'cause Friar Tuck kind of helps and like harbours

him, uh, at times, doesn't he?

And helps him to distribute the money that comes from Robin to, through to the poor.

And he, he defends him, doesn't he?

He won't give him up.

The men and women of the church are shown as, as being, you know, of true

heart and good, and, and, and he's on the side of Robin Hood all against

the, the establishment as it were.

Alastair: Indeed.

Anna: Okay.

So, on Wikipedia, it says that at least, there are at least eight plausible

origins to the story of Robin Hood.

Um, and they were, they were mooted by historians.

That's a fun word, isn't it?

Mooted by historians and folklorists, including suggestions that Robin Hood

was a stock alias used by, um, or in reference to bandits in general.

So, just generally calling like a Joe Bloggs.

Um, anyone who's a bandit is a Robin Hood.

I thought that was quite interesting.

Alastair: I guess part of that might be people trying to sort of, um,

channel their inner Robin Hood trying to, um, say that they are the same

as Robin Hood, so that, that they are minimizing perhaps crimes that

are, that are, that are real crimes.

So if you are saying, "You know, I've done this, I've done this thing, but

I'm actually a Robin Hood type figure.

My name is Robin Hood."

People might think more of you, if you're trying to associate yourself with

someone who has thought in, in popular, popular memory as being a good person.

So perhaps that's why.

Anna: Yeah.

Alastair: That's why people were doing that.

Anna: "Please, governor.

I just did it to feed the poor.

I'm just another Robin Hood."

So, looking at some of the creative works that's come off the back of Robin

Hood, because this story has inspired so many writers and, uh, playwrights

and it's inspired lots of TV series.

I knew there were a couple of films and obviously both you and I are

very familiar with the Disney film.

I think you more so because you said your, your child is, uh...

Alastair: Addicted to it.

Anna: Quite obsessed.

Alastair: Yeah.

Yeah.

Is uh...

Anna: Okay.

Alastair: Yeah.

Completely addicted to it.

Anna: Right.

Well, I, I was a, I was a huge Disney fan myself when I was younger and

watched all the Disneys, I, I had the full collection and knew all of

them inside out and back to front.

Um, and always enjoyed Robin Hood, specifically the older

Disney films because of the music.

I think Disney were very good at kind of matching fantastic songs, kind

of classic, ageless songs to, to the stories and the films with the animation.

Alastair: Mm-hmm.

Anna: And so I was already very familiar with it, but I didn't reaise exactly

how many pieces of work have actually come off the back of this story.

When I was researching for this, this podcast, I just was blown away by how

many, you know, that we've got, we've got books, there are plays, radio plays,

there's ballads, operas, video games.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Comic books, countless films and television shows.

And I also discovered that in 2010, there was a Robin Hood film, which I

am not familiar with, but I want to kind of find now, that was directed by

Ridley Scott that starring Russell Crow.

I didn't see that one.

Alastair: That completely, uh, passed me by as well.

I had, I just didn't reaise that was the, that had ever come out.

Anna: Yeah.

And Cate Blanchett as well as as Marion, I mean, that's,

that must be an amazing film.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Because Ridley Scott is famous for Alien, right?

Doing the Alien films and...

Alastair: Yeah.

And, uh, I guess, uh, Ridley Scott plus Russell Crow, that

was, um, Gladiator as well.

The first Gladiator.

Anna: So it's, it is gotta be a, a really great film.

So I'm keen to try and find that.

The film that I remember is the one from 1991, which was starring

Alastair: Kevin Costner

Anna: Kevin Costner.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: And that was Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

That was a great film.

Alastair: Unless I'm getting mixed up.

Was there a scene in that where someone pulls out their tooth with it?

By attaching some string to a door.

And I think...

Anna: Yes.

Alastair: ...that might be the case.

Anna: The, guy who the, he's a really great actor, but his name escapes me.

Um, who played Sheriff for Nottingham.

Alastair: Yeah.

With the black hair.

Anna: Oh, yeah.

And he's brilliant.

I think Alan, is it Alan..

Alastair: Alan Rickman?

No.

Anna: Alan Rickman!

Yeah, he's, he's Sheriff of Nottingham.

He's such a great baddy and his relationship with his mum.

Alastair: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna: It, it was funny, but also, you know, quite dark and it was a very good

film and I would imagine that film having been made that, you know, other

directors would shy away from reproducing the film of Robin Hood, but obviously

2010 we have the Ridley Scott version and there were some other versions

as well that have been brought out.

Some went straight to video.

But it's like Titanic.

I mean, Titanic was such an iconic film that I think also came out in the

nineties and I can't imagine anyone would like, you know, "Yey, let's

go and make a film about Titanic."

"Oh, what's already been done and did really well."

Alastair: Yeah, I guess.

I guess not exactly cheap to make either.

Anna: When you are taking these, these events, these historical events or

myths, folklore, when you're, when you're doing your own version, you

are putting your own spin on it.

Alastair: Mm-hmm.

Anna: Aren't you?

Um, I saw last week I watched a new version of Peter Pan.

Alastair: Okay.

Anna: It's a new film.

Now, Peter Pan is another one of those kind of, uh, obviously,

it's not based in reality, but it's been covered lots of times.

It's a story that captures people's imagination.

And again, there was a very famous Disney film and there was Hook, which

was a spinoff with Robin Williams.

Alastair: Yeah.

Anna: Which was a, a really great film as well.

They've done a new one, Peter Pan and Wendy, and I was like,

oh, is this gonna be any good?

But when I watched it, it was very different.

They had some very different ideas for some of the characters like

Tinkerbell had a very different, uh, relationship with Wendy than what

you would know from the other films where Tinkerbell is quite jealous...

Alastair: Okay.

Anna: ...of Wendy and is obsessed with Peter.

So I thought that was a really interesting take.

And also the, the relationship between Hook and Peter was completely different.

It had a, a background and more, um, substance to why there was this

rivalry, which actually then, you know, had an op opportunity to be

resolved by the end of the film.

And I thought that was fantastic.

Okay.

So moving on a little bit from Robin Hood and just really thinking about

the process of creative writing when you were writing Pioneers of the

Continuum, I know you did it with someone else, it was kind of a collaborative

process, the writing process.

Did you enjoy that and would you consider doing the same

sort of thing in the future?

Alastair: Yeah, I, I really enjoyed it.

I've, I've always liked writing and as you said, I, I will not try

and pass off the whole of Pioneers of Continuum as, uh, as my own.

I, I did it with a colleague, Emil, and the process of actually

writing creatively I really enjoy.

I guess for English Learning for Curious Minds, the main podcast, I'm trying to

turn kind of historical facts, I guess, into a compelling story and the, the

nature of the stories that we choose, um, try to choose fun and interesting ones,

so sometimes they, they write themselves.

It's a very interesting process to go through trying to kind of figure

out who are the characters that you're gonna involve in a story.

What are they gonna do?

Why, why might they feel in certain ways towards each other.

What feelings might they have about their own situation?

What do they want to achieve and how are they gonna kind of

set about doing those things?

So it's, it's a really fun process.

I also would certainly encourage any non-native English speaker to, to try

writing stories in English as a way of practicing, as a way of having some fun.

I think it's something that not many people do.

And I don't see it being encouraged very much, but it's a, it's a really fun thing.

I, I always really enjoyed trying to write in, in different languages and

found it to be a, a really interesting and, uh, fun outlet for my own creativity

without getting too worried about, you know, grammatical correctness and making

sure that I've, I've kind of not made any mistakes because if you're getting

into the actual story of it, it doesn't matter so much, especially if you are,

you know, you're writing for yourself.

So, to any non-native English speaker who is listening to this and thinking,

you know, I want a way to practice, then, you know, pick up a pen or

start typing and write a story that...

it's a really fun and interesting thing to do and I think you'll be very

surprised at your ability to do it.

Uh, lots of people kind of think, oh, I'm not creative.

I could, I could never do this, but when they start, they soon have amazing ideas

and able to craft wonderful stories.

And it doesn't matter so much if there are a few grammatical errors,

or whatever, because firstly, people aren't gonna see them because it's

not like you are publishing them on the the front page of the newspaper.

And secondly, the more you write, the better you get at it.

Not just the storytelling element, but also the, the linguistic accuracy.

So if you're looking for a fun English, uh, exercise to do, then I, I think

you can't go too far wrong with picking up a pen and starting to write.

Anna: Yeah, lots of people, like you say, don't think they're creative,

or they think they're not writers.

But actually in this day and age, most of us are writing every day, not physically

writing perhaps, but all of us are writing in some respects, whether it's just emails

or text messages, jotting down to-do lists or, you know, writing for the blog for

work or, you know, little bits and bobs.

We're all writing, we're all creating words and sentences, and the idea of

creative writing, I think actually just gives you a bit more freedom to...

You know, we all can walk, but actually it is so nice to just get out

sometimes and just stretch your body and move in ways that just inspire

you rather than just having to walk like everyone walks down the street.

I think creative writing is that opportunity to stretch

and jump and leap and hop.

Alastair: Of course.

Anna: I think it would be, um, what's the word?

Like quite liberating for students to actually start trying

their hand at creative writing.

Alastair: You're completely right, that most people are writing every

day, but most people, and I include myself in this, most people are

writing pretty boring stuff, right?

If you're writing emails to clients or notes or things like that, you know,

it's, it's practical and the whole nature of writing, uh, business email

or something is that you are hopefully being precise and communicating clearly.

You're not really giving yourself an outlet for, for describing

stuff, for telling a great story.

We humans love stories.

Even if you're not the kind of person who is reading all the time, even if you

are not sort of spending every evening with your head in a book, you like

watching films, you like engaging with the kind of stories of other people.

And so why not try this yourself?

Why not try to create little stories?

And it doesn't have to be a case of thinking, "Right, I'm gonna sit down

and I'm gonna plan out War and Peace, and it's gonna be a thousand pages

and, and I'm gonna make sure that there's sentences that are, you know,

500 words long and all full of correct commas and punctuation and stuff."

It can even be a case of saying, "Right, I am gonna write about

a dream that I had last night."

Or something like that.

I'm, I'm gonna write a hundred words on what I think the backstory might be

of that man who's sitting on the bench.

I'm gonna write a story imagining I was a little bird flying above

the city, that kind of stuff.

And start small.

And I think you'll be very surprised at what you are able to do.

Because you, from a creative element, people have this creativity inside

them because we're so used to consuming stories, we kind of know inherently

what makes a compelling story.

We, we talked about some of the things when using the example of

Robin Hood, of having, you know, the kind of hero, the, the villain, the

love interests, the, the kind of the, the journey to get what you want.

Anna: You said start small.

I mean, you can go as far as to literally just put pen to paper and not worry about

there being a beginning, middle, and end.

But just, you know, sometimes I will just write a paragraph that's...

would be taken from the middle of a story just describing a scene.

And from there I go, well, where did this come from?

And where is it going?

You know, so you can just write anything, it doesn't necessarily initially have

to have structure because like you said, it's just an exercise for oneself to,

to just explore and see where things go.

Alastair: Um, and, and if you don't think like you are creative, then you

know, read a bit of a book and then try and write what might happen next.

If it's, you know, it might be you're reading Harry Potter or something and

then you, you, you close one page and then you think, okay, I'll, I'll write

what, what happens next in this scene.

And you have all the information about what's going on, you

just need to complete it.

So it can be a fun, a fun exercise that, uh, that is perhaps a

surprising one, but fun nonetheless.

Anna: They say that with, with most good stories, you, well,

you start with your character.

You choose your character.

Um, and often the story will start with some form of equilibrium.

So the character is on a level, on level footing.

Everything is okay.

But they want something.

And in the, in the process of trying to get the thing that they

want, we then have disequilibrium.

So, things go wrong.

There's an obstacle.

Something gets in the way, something happens that prevents

them from getting what they want.

And then it's their journey to overcome that obstacle.

And hopefully by the end they've found some form of equilibrium.

They've achieved what they want or they haven't, depending on what it is

that you want, the where, where you want your story to go, uh, and what

you want your character to achieve.

Um, but that would be the, like the kind of basic foundations

of a story, wouldn't it?

That equilibrium - disequilibrium - equilibrium.

Alastair: Indeed.

Anna: I, I think creative writing is, is really great fun.

So you've given us some really good things to think about there, but if you were

going to, um, just give three tips, like in a nutshell of what our listeners could

do to try their hand at creative writing.

In a nutshell, what would those three tips be?

Alastair: Okay, so I, I touched on some of these before, but to

kind of, to say them clearly.

Anna: Summarize.

Alastair: I would say, firstly, just, just start, right?

There's, there's nothing stopping you from starting now.

Today, tomorrow, uh, there, there's really nothing stopping you from

starting and start, start small.

So just write a paragraph, write a small thing that you think

might be fun and interesting.

So just start.

The second one is to not get too bogged down or worried by grammatical accuracy.

Don't sort of stop thinking, "Ah, should it be this particular tense

or that particular tense, or, or have I conjugated this correctly."

Just, just keep going.

Don't get worried about the linguistic accuracy.

The third one.

Perhaps even should have been the first one, but is to, to read as widely as

you can in English, because the, the more reading you do, firstly the, the

better your, your language will be.

And uh, secondly, you'll start to see some of the kinds of things

that you talked about, Anna, in terms of how stories are structured.

Obviously, not just from, not just in English, but how, how any

stories are structured and what are the kind of qualities that go

into a really compelling story?

So whether you are reading in English or in your own language, you can kind of

interrogate the story and thinking, why, why is this a particularly attractive bit?

Why am I enjoying this so much, really?

Why is this character, why do this character feel so real?

And you'll, the more you kind of interrogate what you are reading,

the better you'll get at it.

Anna: Fantastic.

Brilliant.

Um, it's been really interesting talking to you.

I'm very excited about your new project.

Um, to hear The Pioneers of the Continuum, which is coming out on the 23rd...

Anna & Alastair: 23rd of May.

May.

Okay.

Anna: So the rising intonation there is me indicating that, I'm not sure,

and I need your help, the 23rd of May.

Uh, brilliant.

Uh, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Everyone listening, I highly encourage you to go and check out Alastair's podcast.

You can find the link in the show notes, but if you are just searching for it on

your general podcasting platform, it's Learning English for Curious Minds.

Is that right?

Alastair: English Learning for Curious Minds.

Anna: Err, just fell down at the last hurdle there.

Um, okay.

Thank you so much for joining.

Alastair: Well, thanks so much, Anna, and uh, yeah, thank you so much for being

a part of Pioneers of the Continuum.

Anna: Take care and goodbye.

Alastair: Bye.