6 essential lessons for women leaders | Julia Gillard and Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Julia Gillard: Ngozi, 10 years ago when I became prime minister of Australia,

茱莉亞‧吉拉德：恩戈齊， 十年前，我當上澳洲總理時，

I assumed that at the start, there would be a strong reaction

我預期一開始會有很強烈的反應，

to me being the first woman,

but it would abide over time

and then I would be treated the same as every other Prime Minister had been.

因為我是第一位女性總理，

但隨時間會漸漸可以忍受，

I was so wrong.

接著我就會和所有其他首相 得到相同的待遇。

That didn't happen.

The longer I governed, the more visible the sexism became.

結果我大錯特錯了。

那沒有發生。

I don't want any other woman to be blindsided like that.

我執政越久，性別歧視就越明顯。

我不希望其他女性被這樣攻其不備。

That's why I'm so excited about working with you

to help women get ready to lead in what is still a sexist world.

這就是為什麼我很興奮能和你合作，

協助女性在這個仍然充滿

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala: I share that sense of excitement.

性別歧視的世界中準備好領導。

After I was finance minister of Nigeria,

恩戈齊‧奧孔約‧伊衞拉： 我也同樣興奮。

I was overwhelmed by the number of women who wanted me to be their mentor.

在我當上奈及利亞的財政部長之後，

我很驚訝有這麼多女性

It is terrific that aspiring, young women

希望我能扮演她們的導師。

are keen to learn from those who have gone before,

這是很棒的事， 有志向的年輕女性渴望

but there are still too few female role models,

向前人學習，

especially women of color.

但女性典範還是太少了，

Now as a result of the work we have done together,

特別是有色人種女性。

I can offer everyone clear, standout lessons

現在，我們的合作有了成果，

that are based not just on my own experience,

我可以提供大家清楚、 出色的經驗之談，

but on the global research on women and leadership

不僅是以我個人的經驗為基礎，

and the candid insights of leading women.

還有全世界對於女性 及領導力所做的研究，

JG: One of the things to share is that there's joy in being a leader --

以及女性領導人的公正洞見。

茱：值得分享的是， 身為領導者是件喜悅的事——

in having the opportunity to put your values into action.

Emphasizing the positive makes a real difference

因為有機會能把你的價值觀 變成實際行動。

to the power of role modeling.

強調正面能夠大大增加 扮演模範的力量。

If we only focus on the sexist and negative experiences,

如果我們只把焦點放在 性別歧視和負面的經歷，

women may decide that being a leader sounds so grim they don't want to do it.

女性可能會認定擔任 領導者聽起來好可怕，

On the other hand,

if we pretend it's all rosy and easy,

她們不會想去做。

另一方面，如果我們假裝 當領導人很美好、輕鬆，

women and girls can be put off

because they decide leadership is only for superwomen

女人和女孩會被潑冷水，

who never have any problems.

因為她們會認為領導職

We all have to get the balance right,

是從來沒有任何問題的女超人做的。

but Ngozi, it's impossible to talk about role models right now

我們都得找到好的平衡點，

但，恩戈齊，現在要談模範，

without asking you:

how does it make you feel to see Kamala Harris elected

就一定要問問你：

as vice president?

看到賀錦麗被選為副總統，

NOI: I'm delighted.

It's important to the aspiration of girls and women

你有什麼感受？

恩：我很高興。

that they see role models they can relate to.

要鼓舞女孩和女人，很重要的就是

Vice President-elect Harris is exactly that kind of role model,

就是要有她們能夠連結的模範。

被選為副總統的賀錦麗 正是這種模範，

particularly for girls and women of color.

And every woman who steps forward

特別是對有色人種的 女孩及女性而言。

makes more space for the women who come next.

每一位站出來的女性，

都會為下一位女性 製造更多一點空間。

JG: Of course both of us know from our own experiences

茱：當然，我們兩人 從自身經驗都知道，

that even when women get to the top,

unfortunately, too much time and attention will be spent

即使女性爬到頂端，

on what they look like rather than what they do and say.

很不幸，有太多時間和注意力

會被放在她們的外表上，

Ngozi, for women, is it still all about the hair?

而非她們做了什麼、說了什麼。

恩戈齊，看女性的重點 仍然全是髮型嗎？

NOI: Certainly, Julia.

I laughed when Hillary Clinton said she envied my dress style,

恩：肯定是，茱莉亞。 當希拉蕊‧克林頓說

and particularly my signature scarf,

她羨慕我的穿著風格時，我笑了，

so I don't need to worry about my hair.

特別是我的招牌圍巾，

Like many of our women leaders,

所以我不用擔心我的髮型。

I've effectively adopted a uniform.

和許多女性領導人一樣，

It's a colorful one,

我實際上挑選了一件制服。

it's African, it's me.

I have developed my own style that I wear every day

它很鮮艷，它很非洲， 它代表的就是我。

and I don't vary from it.

我開發出了我自己的風格， 我每天都會穿著它，不會改變。

That has helped protect me from endless discussion

of my appearance.

It's helped me to get people to listen to my words,

那對我是種保護，避免大家 無止境地討論我的外表，

not look at my clothes.

它協助我，讓大家聽我在說什麼，

JG: Hillary told us she lost the equivalent

不是看我穿什麼。

of 24 full days of campaign time

茱：希拉蕊告訴我們，她花了等同於

in the 2016 election

二十四個完整競選日的時間，

getting her hair and makeup done every day.

在 2016 年的選戰中，

But actually, contemporary problems for women leaders go far deeper

每天做頭髮和化妝。

但，事實上，女性領導人 現今遇到的問題更深許多，

than anything to do with looks.

I'd better warn you now,

I'm about to use a word many people would find rude.

不僅僅是和外表有關。

我要先警告大家，我等下要用 一個許多人覺得粗魯的詞。

My favorite funny moment in our travels was discussing "resting bitch face"

我們旅程中，我最喜歡的趣味時刻

with Prime Minister Erna Solberg of Norway.

是和挪威的首相埃爾娜‧索爾貝格

The global research shows that if a man comes across as strong, ambitious,

討論「天生臭臉綜合症」。

全球性的研究指出， 如果男性表現出堅強、

even self-seeking,

that's fine,

有野心，甚至追逐自利，

but if a woman does it,

then the reactions against her can be as visceral as revulsion

那沒問題；

但若換成女性，

大家對她的反應 可能是發自內心的嫌惡

or contempt.

They're pretty mind-bogglingly strong words, aren't they?

或蔑視。

強烈到讓人驚訝的用詞，是吧？

NOI: They certainly are,

and women leaders talk about it intuitively,

恩：的確如此，

understanding that to be viewed as acceptable as a leader,

且女性領導人會很直覺地去談它，

她們了解，要成為被接受的領導人，

they have to stay balanced on a tightrope between strength and empathy.

她們得在力量和同理之間找到平衡。

If they come across as too tough,

they're viewed as hard and unlikeable.

如果她們表現得太強悍，

But if they come across as too soft,

她們會被視為難搞且不討喜。

they seem to be lacking the backbone needed to lead.

但如果她們表現得太軟弱，

JG: The problem is we still all have sexist stereotypes

她們似乎又少了領導所需要的骨氣。

whirring in the back of our brains.

茱：問題在於，充滿 性別歧視的刻板印象仍然

I was portrayed as out of touch because I don't have children.

在我們的腦中揮之不去。

I was even compared to a barren cow in the bush,

我被描述成與生活脫節的人， 因為我沒有孩子。

destined to be killed for hamburger mince.

我甚至被比喻為荒野中的不孕母牛，

NOI: That's horrible that you faced that stereotype.

注定要被宰來當漢堡絞肉。

While I was worried that people would think I couldn't do my job

恩：你面臨這種 刻板印象真的很糟糕。

when my family was young,

當我在擔心，大家會因為 我的家人還太小

I enjoyed talking to New Zealand's Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern

而認為我無法勝任我的工作時，

about her experience as the second woman ever

我很喜歡和紐西蘭總理 潔辛達·阿德恩聊

to have a child while being a national leader.

她的經歷，她是史上 第二個能同時有孩子

I was very taken by her saying

並擔任國家領導人的女性。

she doesn't think she gets the work-life balance right,

她有句話很吸引我，她說

in the sense that she doesn't like the word "balance,"

她認為她沒有做好 工作和生活的平衡，

and there's always guilt.

因為她不喜歡「平衡」這個詞，

She just makes it work.

且總是有罪惡感。

JG: Ngozi, where are men in this?

她只是設法把這種生活搞定。

NOI: Hopefully, manning up.

茱：恩戈齊，在此， 男性扮演什麼角色？

Men can more equitably share domestic and care work.

恩：希望是能硬起來。

男性可以很平等地 分擔家務和照護工作。

They can point out sexism when they see it.

They can make space for women

他們可以在發現 性別歧視時把它點出來。

and mentor and sponsor them.

Given that men disproportionately still have the power,

他們能為女性製造空間， 指導、贊助她們。

we won't see change unless they work with us

因為男性擁的權力的狀況 仍然高得不成比例，

to create a world that will be better for men and women.

若要有所改變，就需要 他們和我們合作，

JG: Let's talk about the "glass cliff" phenomenon.

創造一個對男性和女性 都更好的世界。

If a business or an organization is going well,

茱：咱們來談談「玻璃懸崖」現象。

then they're likely to appoint a new leader

如果企業或組織一切順利，

who looks a lot like the old one --

that is, a man.

他們會指派的新領導人很可能

But if they are in difficulties,

會和原本的很相似——

they decide it's time to get someone quite different,

也就是，男人。

但如果他們處在困境中，

and often reach for a woman.

它們會認為該是 找個不同的人的時候了，

To take one example,

Christine Lagarde became the first woman to lead the International Monetary Fund

通常就會找來一個女人。

舉例來說，克莉絲汀‧ 拉加德成為第一個

when it was in crisis after its former head was arrested for sexual assault.

國際貨幣基金組織的女性領導人，

那時組織正在危機中，

Ngozi, while not as dramatic as that,

因為前任領導人因性侵而被逮捕。

you know a bit about glass cliffs too.

恩戈齊，雖然沒那麼戲劇化，

NOI: I certainly do.

但你也對玻璃懸崖有點認識。

I remember clearly being chosen, as a young woman,

恩：的確如此。

to lead a very problematic World Bank project in Rwanda.

我清楚記得我年輕時被選上

No one else wanted to lead it,

主導世界銀行在盧安達的 一個棘手專案計畫。

lest they fail.

So there was this attitude of "if she pulls it off, it's OK.

沒有人想要接這個工作，以免失敗。

If she fails, then, well, she's just a young African woman

所以他們的態度是

「如果她救援成功，很好。

whose career doesn't matter that much."

如果她失敗了，反正 她只是個年輕的非洲女子，

From that experience,

她的職涯沒那麼重要。」

I learned things about myself and leadership,

and the biggest lesson we can share is this:

我從那段經歷了解了我自己 也學到了領導能力，

if you have a sense of purpose that drives you,

跟大家分享其中最重要的一課：

then aim high --

如果有使命感在推動著你，

become a leader.

And make room as you go.

那就把目標設高——成為領導人。

Former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is fond of saying

並在過程中製造空間，

that there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women.

美國前國務卿馬德琳‧ 歐布萊特很喜歡說

地獄中有個區域特別保留給 不支持女性的女性。

In this world,

we need to be there for each other.

在這個世界裡，我們得要支持彼此。

JG: There's a bit of good news and bad news here.

Certainly the research shows

我有好消息也有壞消息。

that the stereotype about the businesswoman

無疑地，研究指出，

who makes it to the top

對於爬到頂峰並阻止其他女性進入的

and then stops other women coming through

isn't borne out by the facts.

女實業家刻板印象

The constraint seems to be

that organizations think once they've got a woman or two,

背後並沒有事實來支持。

限制似乎是在於組織

they don't need to worry about gender anymore.

認為一旦他們有了一、兩個女性，

But we do have to be frank --

他們就不用再擔心性別問題了。

women do get pitted against other women

但我們必須要坦言——

for the limited number of seats at the table.

女性的確會彼此較量，

We have to be wary of having our solidarity with each other eroded

因為決策的席位有限。

我們要小心，

by these politics of scarcity.

別讓我們彼此的團結

Instead, we should work together to change the rules

被席位稀少的政治因素給破壞。

that keep us at the margins.

反之，我們應該同心協力改變那些

NOI: So to summarize, our standout lessons are ...

把我們擋在邊緣的規則，

Number one, there's no right way to be a woman leader.

恩：所以，總結一下， 我們出色的經驗之談包括：

Be true to yourself.

第一，成為女性領導人， 沒有所謂對的方式。

JG: Number two,

we know that women leaders face sexism and stereotyping,

忠於自己就好。

茱：第二，我們知道女性領導人

so sit down with your mentors,

要面對性別歧視和被套上刻板印象，

sponsors, best supporters and friends

所以，和你的導師、贊助人、 最支持你的人，及朋友坐下來，

and war-game.

How are you going to deal with the gendered moments,

with being judged on your appearance,

做演習。

在出現性別問題的時刻， 你要如何處理？

with being assumed to be a bit of a bitch

也許是遇到你的外表被評斷、 別人被假設你是個潑婦，

or with your family choices questioned?

Forewarned is forearmed.

或者你的家庭抉擇被執疑。

NOI: Number three,

有備無患。

let everyone you know talking about gender stereotypes

恩：第三，

and debunking them:

讓你認識的每個人來談性別 刻板印象，揭穿其虛假：

these false assumptions can't survive being held up to the light of day.

這些虛假的假設， 在光天化日下無法生存。

JG: Number four, there are structural barriers too.

Don't wait until you need help balancing work and family life

茱：第四，也有結構性的障礙。

別等到你需要協助來幫你 平衡工作與家庭生活，

or to be fairly evaluated for promotion.

Be a supporter of systems and changes that aid gender equality

或被公平地評估是否該升遷。

去支持那些促進 性別平等的制度和改變，

even if you don't personally need them immediately.

即使你個人並不急需。

NOI: Number five, don't take a backwards step.

Don't shy away from taking up space in the world.

恩：第五，別開倒車。

Don't assume you're too junior or people are too busy.

別客氣，儘管去佔據世界的空間。

別假設你太資淺或別人太忙碌。

Reach out, network.

JG: That's great advice,

向外求助，建立關係網。

and leads us to the most important lesson of all --

茱：很棒的建議，

go for it.

也就帶出我們最重要的一課——

NOI: Yes, go for it.

放膽去做。

JG: (Laughs) Thank you.

恩：是的，放膽去做。

NOI: Thank you.

茱：（笑）謝謝你。

恩：謝謝你。