The US is addicted to incarceration. Here's how to break the cycle | Robin Steinberg

Manoush Zomorodi: So, Robin Steinberg,

譯者: Jingying Liao 審譯者: Bruce Sung

瑪努什·左莫洛迪（瑪）： 蘿賓．斯坦伯格，

非常謝謝你願意成為

thank you so much for being my first official guest

我接任 TED Radio Hour 播客節目 新主持人後的第一位正式來賓。

as the new host of TED Radio Hour.

I'm pretty psyched about that.

我感到很興奮。

Robin Steinberg: I'm delighted.

蘿賓 · 斯坦伯格 （蘿）：我很開心。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

MZ: So OK, I want to start with the Bail Project,

瑪：好，我想從保釋金計劃談起，

how it came to be, how you came up with the idea.

它是怎麼創立的？ 你怎麼會想出這個點子？

The story goes

據說是

that 10 years ago, you and your husband were eating Chinese takeout food

十年前你和你的丈夫 正在吃外帶的中餐時，

when you came up with the concept.

你想出了這個概念。

You'd been a public defender for over 30 years,

你已經擔任公設辯護律師三十多年了，

but there was this moment where you decided something had to change.

但總有一個時間點讓你決定做出改變。

RS: So we had both spent decades

蘿：數十年來，我們夫妻倆

in the trenches of the criminal legal system as public defenders,

都在刑事司法制度的戰線中 擔任公設辯護律師，

fighting for each and every client the best we could,

盡我們所能為每一位客戶而戰，

defending people's humanity and their dignity

維護人們的人性和尊嚴，

and fighting for their freedom.

為他們的自由而戰。

And no matter how good we were as lawyers,

不論我們是多棒的律師，

and I like to think we were really good,

當然我認爲我們做得很好，

and how forceful we fought on behalf of a client,

不論我們多有力地代表客戶，

sometimes it all came down to a few hundred dollars.

有時這只因幾百美金而功虧一簣。

And that was whether or not your client could pay bail

差別就在於你的客戶 是否付得起保釋金，

and fight her case from freedom

以自由之身抗辯，

or whether she was going to be locked in jail on Rikers Island

或是會被關入里克斯島看守所，

and desperate would wind up pleading guilty,

出於絕望而最後選擇認罪，

whether she did it or not.

無論犯下了罪行與否。

And that just enraged us.

這點讓我們很火大。

And sometimes, you know,

有時，你懂的，

the answers are simple and they're right in front of you.

答案很簡單，就在你眼前。

And so we thought,

於是，我們心想：

"Well, what if we just paid clients' bail?"

「如果我們支付客戶的保釋金呢？」

And that's where the idea of creating a revolving bail fund --

於是我們想出了循環式 保釋金基金的點子——

because bail comes back at the end of a case,

因為案子結束就可領回保釋金，

if we could raise money and put it in a fund,

如果我們能為此募款並存入基金，

and have a revolving fund,

建立一個循環式基金，

we could just pay bail for our clients.

我們就可以為我們的客戶 支付保釋金。

Now I have to say, that was back in 2005.

我必須要說的是，當時是 2005 年。

People weren’t talking about criminal justice reform

那時的人還沒有像現在這樣 討論刑事司法改革，

the way they are now,

當時也沒有很多關於 保釋金改革的討論，

there wasn't a lot of conversation about bail reform,

老實說，我們花了 兩年時間敲人們的門，

and quite honestly, we spent two years knocking on people's door.

沒有人回應。

Nobody answered.

直到有一天，一名男子和家人， 傑森·福隆和他的家人，

Until one day, one man and his family, Jason Flom and his family,

decided to take a chance on us and gave us a grant in 2007.

決定給我們一個機會， 在 2007 年給了我們一筆款項。

And we began to test the revolving bail fund model.

我們便開始測試 循環式保釋金基金模式。

And to see what would happen.

看看會是怎麽樣。

MZ: Can you clarify, though,

瑪：你能否解釋一下，

like, why it is so important for someone not to be in jail

比如為什麼不要讓候審人

while they await trial?

被拘押如此重要？

You've explained this in the past and it really blew my mind,

以前你解釋過這件事，讓我很驚訝，

because I had no idea what could happen in those days or weeks

因為我完全不知道

在被告上庭辯護之前的 那幾天或幾週會發生什麼事。

before someone actually has to plead their case.

RS: Sure. So, being held in jail even for a few days

蘿：好的，被拘押在看守所裡， 即使只有幾天，

can change the trajectory of your life.

也有可能改變你人生的軌道。

It is not only the place where you can be victimized, sexually,

在看守所裡不僅有可能受到性侵害，

you can be exposed to violence,

有可能受暴力傷害，

you'll be traumatized in all sorts of ways while you're in the jail,

在看守所裡會受到各種各樣的創傷，

and that's even the first few days or a week

這還只是發生在剛被拘留 的幾天或幾周，

is when most jail deaths actually, whether they're suicides or homicides,

大部分看守所中的死亡案例 都是在這段時間發生，

actually happen.

不論是自殺或他殺，

But while you're sitting in jail,

但當你在看守所裡時……

and understand, folks sitting in jail pretrial

要知道，審判之前拘押在牢裡的人

have not been convicted of a crime.

還沒有被定罪。

They're there because they don't have enough money to pay bail.

他們會在那裡是因為 他們付不起保釋金。

And while that's happening, people's lives are falling apart outside.

他們在外頭的生活 會在這段時期開始崩離解析。

You're losing your job,

你會失去你的工作，

you might be losing your home,

你可能會失去你的房子，

your children might be taken from you,

你的孩子可能會被帶離你身邊，

your immigration status might be jeopardized,

你的移民資格可能會被取消，

你可能會被退學。

you might get thrown out of school.

所以除了你待在看守所裡時 所受到的傷害之外，

So it's the damage to you that's happening in our local jails,

but it's also what's happening to you and your family

還有當你在候審時， 所有發生在你、你家人，

and your community that you've been removed from

和你所離開的社區上的一切。

while you're waiting for your trial,

而這段等待期間可能是數天、 數週，不誇張地說，甚至好幾年。

which, by the way, can take days, weeks and no exaggeration, can take years.

瑪：你在 2018 年的 TED 演說中

MZ: So you explained this sort of crazy limbo that people are in

from the TED stage in 2018,

講述過候審人所會陷入的這種泥沼，

and I want to just play a quick clip from that talk that you gave,

我想播放一段截取自那場演說的短片，

非常觸動人心。

which was incredibly moving.

Can we play that?

我們可以播放了嗎？

(Audio: Robin Steinberg TED2018) It's time to do something big.

（語音：蘿賓·斯坦伯格 TED2018） 該是採取重大行動的時候了。

It's time to do something bold.

該是採取果敢行動的時候了。

It's time to do something ... maybe audacious?

該是採取……也許大膽…… 行動的時候了？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

We want to take our proven revolving bail-fund model

我們想要把我們在布朗克斯

建立且證明有用的 循環式保釋金基金模式

that we built in the Bronx

and spread it across America,

傳播到美國各地，

attacking the front-end of the legal system

在羈押開始之前

before incarceration begins.

正面進攻司法體制。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

MZ: The energy in the room when you gave your talk was palpable,

瑪：當你演說時， 現場的反響很震撼，

and it ended up getting you quite a bit of funding

結果也讓你從「大膽計畫」

from the Audacious Project,

募得了不少資金，

which is TED's initiative to get some of these big ideas support

「大膽計畫」是 TED 的活動， 旨在為偉大的創意尋求支持，

to make them actually happen.

讓想法成真。

Can you explain what has happened since you gave your talk?

你能說一下在那次演說 之後發生了什麼事嗎？

RS: Sure.

蘿：當然。

So, the Audacious grant allowed us

這樣，「大膽計劃」的資金讓我們

to take our proven concept and to scale it.

可以將我們已經證實 可行的概念擴大推廣。

And the idea is that we are scaling this model across the country.

想法是，我們要把這個模式 大規模地應用到全國各地，

We're currently in 18 different sites.

目前已經有十八個地點。

And we are doing two things, right?

我們現在正在推行兩件事情，對吧？

The Bail Project is designed both,

設計保釋金計劃目的有二，

provide an immediate lifeline for folks that are stuck in jail cells

向那些因貧窮無法支付保釋金

simply because of poverty,

而身陷看守所的人們，

because they can't pay their bail,

提供即時的救生索。

and that's a response to the immediate direct emergency

這是一個面對國内候審人庭審前

受到羈押的人權危機 與緊急情況的即時因應。

and human rights crisis that we have in this country

around pretrial incarceration.

But the second thing we're trying to do is we're testing a model

我們在做的第二件事是在志工的協助下

測試一個叫做「社區釋放」的模式。

that we call community release with voluntary supports.

And what we're trying to prove is,

我們想要證明的是，

A: you don't need cash bail,

選項 A：不需要現金保釋金，

people will come back to court without cash bail.

人們也一樣會回來參加庭審。

這個謠言已經被揭穿， 且我們心知肚明。

That myth has already been debunked and we know that.

But we're also trying to model

而且我們也在試圖展示，

you can actually release people back to their communities

其實可以釋放這些候審人回到社區，

搭配有效的法院傳票即可。

with effective court notifications.

Make sure they're connected to services they might need.

確保他們能夠聯繫到 他們可能需要的服務。

And people will come back to court while their cases are open,

案件還在審理的人會回到法庭，

直到他們的案件結束。

and until those cases close.

It is in an effort to move policy forward,

我們努力這樣做的目的 是希望能將政策向前推進，

to ensure the systemic change happens,

確保體制能夠有所改變，

but here's our fear:

但我們害怕的是：

it's a race against time.

時間不等人。

Because as this conversation picks up speed,

因為隨著這些討論加快速度，

and as bail reform begins to take hold,

隨著保釋金改革開始奏效，

some systems will move to new systems

有些體制會邁向新的體制，

that we fear will recreate some of the same harms, right,

我們擔心這些新體制會重新創造出

that the initial bail system [created].

原本保釋金體制所創造的傷害。

Those are racial disparities,

包括種族差異、

economic inequality,

經濟不平等，

and we can actually recreate that if we don't get this right.

如果我們出了差錯， 就有可能重新帶來這些傷害。

And so we're in a race against time

所以我們在和時間賽跑，

to prove that you can do a community-based model

要盡快證明可以採用 不需要電子監控、

that doesn't require electronic monitoring

風險演算法、看守所、現金保釋金，

or risk algorithms or jail cells or cash bail,

而以社區為基礎的模式，

but that you can simply release people to communities with supports.

可以單純地把人釋放回 社區，給予支援。

And that will work.

那是行得通的。

MZ: I want to come back to that in a minute, but before we do that,

瑪：我想一會再談 這一點，但在那之前，

我曾經是一名科技記者，

my background is as a tech journalist,

當你說到把這種計畫擴大規模時，

and when you talk about scaling a program like this,

我會想到的是你要面對的是 與應用程序或平臺創始人相對

I can only assume that you are facing completely different challenges

than, say, a founder of an app or a platform or something like that.

完全不同的挑戰。

What are the challenges?

你的挑戰是什麼？

I mean, you're going to states with different laws,

我指的是，你要推行到各州去， 而各州的法律皆不同，

each city must be so completely different.

每個城市的狀況也完全不一樣。

How do you do it?

你要怎麼做？

RS: So you know, scaling the revolving bail fund itself,

蘿：你也知道，把循環式 保釋金基金本身的擴大規模來做，

that's been the easy, elegant solution, right?

那是個簡單且優雅的解決方案。

That's the easy part, that's direct service part,

直接服務的部分是簡單的，

we can scale that across the country.

我們可以把它擴展到全國。

The ground game,

至於在地方的實際操作，

the teams that work as bail disruptors for the Bail Project

在全國不同地點為保釋金計劃

at different locations across the country,

扮演保釋金破壞者的團隊，

they have to take our model

他們必須把我們的模式

and adapt it to the unique needs of each jurisdiction.

根據每個轄區的獨特需求做調整。

And that's where it becomes complex,

那就是複雜的地方了，

and it's very resource intensive,

而且需要相當大量的人力物力，

because criminal justice is incredibly local,

因為刑事司法是非常地方性的，

and so how each system operates is unique.

每個體制的運作方式也獨一無二。

And what the needs of our clients are

我們客戶的需求

are incredibly different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

在不同的轄區就有很大的差異。

So you can be in Oklahoma

如果你在奧克拉荷馬，

and what you know is that communities have been ravaged by the opioid crisis,

你知道社區受到鴉片危機蹂躪，

and when we're bringing people home,

當我們要把人送回家時，

we have to connect them to services that might address that.

我們就得把他們 和相關的社區服務做對接。

When you're in Spokane,

如果你在史坡堪市，

無家可歸的人比比皆是。

you're talking about an epidemic of homelessness.

So when you're thinking about providing direct services and bringing people home,

在思考提供直接服務 以及把人送回家這些議題時，

必須要留心，在那個轄區中，

you have to be mindful of the fact that in that jurisdiction

候審人最大的障礙可能是

that may be the biggest obstacle for people,

他們沒有可暫住的救助站。

is that they don't have shelter.

And so we need to adapt our model in every jurisdiction we go to

我們必須要修改模式， 去配合我們去到的每個轄區

to address the needs of that community.

處理該社區的需求。

MZ: I could only assume that some of these communities

瑪：我猜想當中有些社區

並不歡迎你們。

are not so happy that you're there.

我相信事實上也是這樣的。

That must be a reality of it.

在這類地方，你們也能

Do you have to win hearts and minds as well,

in some of these places?

贏得人心和理解嗎？

RS: So I think it depends on the definition of community.

蘿：我想這就要看社區的定義了。

So communities that have been targeted by our criminal legal system

我們的刑事司法體制數世代以來

for generations,

一直針對的那些社區，

communities of color, low-income communities,

如有色人種社區、低收入社區、

marginalized communities, women across the country,

邊緣社區、全國各地的女性，

they are more than happy to see us come,

他們非常歡迎我們的到來，

because we are just an immediate lifeline.

因為我們就像是即時的生命線。

Bail funds are a tool to get people out as an immediate lifeline,

保釋金基金是種把能人 救出來的工具，

it's not a long-term, systemic answer, right?

它不是長期有效的系統方案，對吧？

But people are, of course,

但是大家都，當然

they want to get out, go back to their families,

大家都不想被拘押， 想回到家人身邊，

他們的社區也希望他們能回來。

their communities want them home.

Has there been some opposition?

有遇上反對的嗎？

Sure, of course.

當然有。

You know, when we go into a new site,

當我們到一個新地方，

we do so carefully, we prospect it carefully,

我們會謹慎行事，小心探戡，

we try to understand who are our partners on the ground

我們會試著了解在一般人中

that might help us in this initiative,

誰是可能協助我們 進行這個計劃的夥伴，

grassroots organizers, not-for-profit organizations,

草根組織的幹部、非營利組織、

systems holders, sheriffs, right?

把持體制的人、警長，對吧？

Who is going to support us and who our opposition might be.

誰會支持我們、誰會反對我們。

MZ: You also put some of the people that you bail out,

瑪：同時你們將一些你們幫助過的人

you bring them back, right, as program officers.

帶回來，作爲項目幹部。

Is that part of the system

你們這個系統把建立社區

that you're trying to make a community around your efforts in some way?

也當作一個努力的方向嗎？

RS: So when we're hiring for local jurisdictions,

蘿：所以當我們在為 當地轄區招聘的時候

we always hire locally.

我們傾向於招當地人。

If we open a site in Baton Rouge,

如果我們在巴吞魯日建立據點，

we hire people from Baton Rouge and are connected to the community.

我們會招募巴吞魯日當地 且與社區有聯係的本地人。

我們會優先考慮在刑事司法體系中，

We try to prioritize people with lived experience

有實務經驗的人，

in the criminal legal system,

or people who have been personally impacted by the system.

或者受到相關體制影響的人。

我們認爲他們對該體制 有完整認知是很重要的，

We think it's important, they understand the system best,

他們有最好的解決方案， 因爲他們離問題最近

they have the best solutions because they're closest to the problem

同時他們也是我們要面試 及提供保釋金

and they're credible messengers for the clients

that we're going to be interviewing and providing bail for.

客戶的最好傳聲筒。

瑪：你提到了這個，

MZ: So you touched on this,

刑事司法改革已經 成爲了一個熱門話題，

criminal justice reform has become a hot topic,

你一定是，「耶，人們終於開始正視

you must be like, "Yay, finally people are talking about this thing

that I've been banging on about for decades."

我已經努力了幾十年的事務了」

Here in California actually, though, there has been a big change.

事實上在加州這裡， 已經發生了很大的變化。

Now it's complicated,

而且這個比較複雜，

but my understanding is that they're getting rid of cash bail.

但我的理解是， 他們放棄了現金保釋金的制度。

Good thing, bad thing, not quite that simple to explain?

這是福還是禍 或是塞翁失馬焉知非福？

RS: So everything about criminal justice reform,

蘿：所以關於刑事司法改革，

and particularly bail reform,

特別是保釋金改革，

is way more complex than it looks, right?

一切事務並沒有表面看著 那麽簡單，對吧？

So it's easy to have a hashtag that says "end cash bail."

但提出一個「終結現金保釋金」 的標簽是很簡單的。

Totally right.

完全沒問題。

We have to eliminate unaffordable cash bail forever.

我們得去永久性取消 難以支付的現金保釋金。

We know money isn't what makes people come back,

我們知道金錢不是讓候審人 回來受庭審的誘因，

it's a myth, let's get rid of it.

這沒有根據，我們要取消這個制度。

But the question about what comes next is very, very complex,

但接下來的問題非常非常複雜，

and California was a good example.

加州就是一個很好的例子。

There was a bill that worked its way through the political process,

有一項名為 SB 10 的法案 已經通過立法程序。

called SB 10.

It started out as what looked like a bill

這個法案看起來

that would actually move towards more decarceration.

會朝著減少羈押人數來發展。

By the time it came out of the political process,

這個法案剛通過時，

frankly it was a bill that almost nobody in the community would support,

坦白講這是一個幾乎沒有人 會支持的法案，

including the Bail Project.

包括我們也不支持。

And it had gone through

但它在審查過程中

some changes in that process

經歷了一些更改：

that placed, you know, pretrial services in the hands of law enforcement,

將審前事務交給執法部門負責、

that put people through risk algorithms,

運用風險演篹法預測潛逃的可能性，

that sort of had a lot of the telltale signs of a system

並開始出現明顯的徵兆，

that was going to recreate the same racial inequity and economic inequalities

指向這個制度有可能走向 種族、經濟不平等的一貫老路。

that we had always seen,

這樣，這個法案通過審查，

and so, that bill actually moved through the process,

and we thought that was the end.

我們認爲一切都定案了。

But then the bail bond industry actually got 400,000 signatures

但是緊接著，保釋金借貸行業 實際上收集到 40 萬個簽名

to put it on the ballot.

將法案列入公投。

So in November, Californians will be voting

所以在 11 月， 加州人民會就著是否

on whether or not SB 10 should go forward or not.

通過 SB 10 法案進行投票。

MZ: So Californians in the audience, you will be voting on this.

瑪： 觀衆裡的加州百姓們， 你們會參與到這次投票當中。

How should they vote?

他們應該怎麽投票呢？

RS: So I'm not so bold as to say that.

蘿：我不是那麽敢説這個。

I may be audacious, but I'm not that audacious.

我可能很大膽，但我還沒那麽大膽。

But what I will say is, educate yourselves.

但我會説的是，多深入吸收相關資訊，

Understand what you're voting on.

理解你們要進行投票的法案。

Understand what it means to hold somebody in jail

理解對於那些處在看守所中，

who hasn't been convicted of a crime

尚未定罪但因無法支付保釋金的人們

simply for their poverty, right?

這會造成什麽影響，對吧？

And ask yourselves, do we want to have a criminal legal system

捫心自問，我們想要一個

拘禁未定罪被告的刑事法律體系嗎？

that incarcerates people before they've been convicted of a crime?

Do we want to have a criminal legal system

我們想要一個繼續針對有色群體

that continues to target communities of color

以及低收入群體

and low-income communities across this country,

的刑事法律體系嗎？

我們想延續大規模監禁中

do we want to continue the damage and the devastation

that we have created through mass incarceration?

產生的損失和禍害嗎？

So I'm not taking position on which way you should vote,

我不想影響你的選擇，

but take that into account.

但是考慮一下我上面的話

MZ: She told me backstage, "I'm not sure how I'm going to vote yet."

瑪：她在後臺和我説： 「我還不確定要投哪邊。」

我想，這挺困難的，對嗎？

I mean, it's that difficult, right?

RS: Well, it's a little more complicated.

蘿：是的，這有一些複雜。

It's the form of SB 10 as it exists

問題在於 SB 10 法案現有的形式

is not a bill that most of us would support, right?

並不是我們大部分人 會支持的形式，是吧？

But eliminating cash bail is critical.

但取消現金保釋金是至關重要的。

MZ: Alright, I want you to forecast into the future.

瑪：明白，請你預想一下未來，

What does an ideal system look like?

你心目中理想的制度是怎樣的？

You have said that America is addicted to incarceration.

你説過美國對羈押上了癮。

Does there have to be a cultural shift around that

除了你之前説過的改變之外，

in addition to making some of the changes that you're talking about?

我們是不是非得有 一些文化上的改變？

RS: So, you know, we have to reckon with what we've done.

蘿：我們必須考慮到 我們已經做了的事情。

If we don't face head-on

如果我們不正面面對

how we've used our criminal legal system,

我們利用刑事司法系統的方式、

and who we have targeted, and how we've defined crime,

對象是誰、怎麽樣定義犯罪、

and how we punish people,

怎麽樣懲罰人們這些問題，

we're never going to move forward.

我們永遠不會取得進度。

So we are going to have to reckon with the harm that we've caused.

所以我們不得不正視我們造成的危害。

And in so doing, we're going to have to shift our lens.

在這個過程中，我們需要切換角度。

And that's a real challenge for us, right?

這對我們是一個極大的挑戰。

We're going to have to shift our lens

我們要從一個

from a system that's about punishment and cruelty and isolation

充滿刑罰、殘忍、牢籠 以及孤立的系統中

and cages

切換出來，

to a lens of,

切換成

"What do you need, how can we support,

「你需要什麽？我們怎樣能幫到你？

where have we failed,

我們在哪裡沒做對？

how can we make that better,

我們怎樣改善改進，

how can we restore and how can we heal?"

怎麽樣恢復、痊癒？」

And if we aren't willing to do that,

如果我們不願意去思考這些問題，

criminal justice reform is going to be stalled,

刑事司法改革將停滯不前，

or what comes next is going to be really problematic.

或者説以後的道路會佈滿荊棘。

It is a fundamental shift in the way that we see

在我們看待刑事司法系統的角度上，

our criminal justice system.

這是根本性的轉變。

And make no mistake about it,

無需置疑的是，

the context of our criminal legal system

我們刑事司法系統的情況

is we have turned our back on social problems, right?

是因爲我們忽視了社會問題，對吧？

So we have turned our backs on homelessness

我們忽視了遊民，

and dire poverty and structural racism

忽視了赤貧群體與結構性種族主義，

and mental health challenges

忽視了心理健康，

and addiction

忽視了毒癮，

and even immigration status.

甚至也不考量移民身分。

And instead, we have used our jails and our criminal legal system, right,

相反地，我們用我們的看守所 和刑事司法系統

to answer those problems.

去處理這些社會問題。

And that has to change.

這需要做出改變。

MZ: It's not the answer.

瑪：這不能處理那些問題。

RS: We have done damage to millions of people

蘿：我們已經對上百萬人造成了傷害，

and in so doing, we have harmed their families

我們傷害到他們的家庭、

and we have harmed their communities,

他們的社區。

and we need to reckon with that.

我們必須要去正視這些事情。

MZ: So I want to ask you finally --

瑪：最後我想問你……

(Applause)

（掌聲）

You've got some of the smartest women in the world here,

這裡有些世界上最聰明的人，

surrounding you.

包圍著你，就在臺下。

They're energized,

她們充滿活力，

they want to know what to do with that energy

她們想知道她們怎樣

when they go back to their communities.

才能把她們的活力貢獻 到她們的群體中去。

And actually I know you took some of them to see a local jail yesterday, right?

我知道你昨天帶她們當中的一些人 去參觀本地的看守所，對嗎？

RS: I did.

蘿：是的。

MZ: Can you tell us about that?

瑪：你可以分享一下嗎?

RS: So, here's what we need to understand.

蘿：好的，這就是我們要去理解的。

This problem is all of our problems.

這個問題是所有人的問題。

Each and every one of us is implicated

每個人與刑事司法體系的構成息息相關。

in what our criminal legal system looks like.

There is no escaping that.

它是我們的鏡子，

It reflects each of us.

逃避不了的。

Every time a prosecutor gets up and says,

每一次檢察官站起來說：

"The people of the state of California" or "New York" or "Idaho,"

「加利福尼亞州的人民」或者 「紐約州人民」、「愛達荷州人民」，

they are speaking in your names.

他們是在以我們的名義發聲。

So we have to take some ownership over this.

所以我們要在這上面 拿到一定的控制權。

And we really have to own the fact that this has to change

我們真的得去面對需要去改變的事實

and this implicates every one of us.

這與我們息息相關。

So what you need to do, is as I said,

所以就如同我所説，你要做的

you need to get educated, you also need to get proximate to this.

就是去吸收知識，去接觸這些東西。

And by getting proximate,

「接觸」的意思

I mean you need to go and see how our criminal legal system operates.

是親自去瞭解我們的 刑事司法系統是如何運作的。

That may mean go to a local criminal courthouse,

這也許意味著你要到當地刑事法庭，

sit in the back of a courtroom,

坐在旁聽席裡，

and I promise you will never be the same,

我保證你會學到一些新的認知。

it's what made me become a public defender all those years ago.

這讓我這麽多年前成爲公設辯護律師。

昨天，我帶了一些參加 TED 大會的人

And yesterday, I took a bunch of people from the TED conference

到本地的看守所。

to the local jail here.

I have been coming in and out of jails for 38 years.

我進出看守所已經 38 年了。

And I have never not been shocked,

我沒有一次不感到震驚，

and yesterday was no exception.

昨天也不例外。

I was shocked, I was horrified.

我很震驚，我很害怕。

The conditions were dehumanizing and degrading and horrifying --

看守所裡的環境毫無人性、 有辱人格、可怕。

and incomprehensible

如果沒有親眼看到過，

if you don't actually see it with your eyes.

你是無法理解的。

It was shocking.

很令人震驚。

And I saw it on the faces of the people that I was with.

我在同去的人神色看到的也是震驚。

So we have to know that's what we're doing in the name of justice in this country

所以我們要知道，這是現在我們國家 以正義之名所做的事情，

and stand up against it.

我們要站起來反抗。

But the only way you're going to do that

但是唯一的辦法是

is if you fight back the narrative of fear that enables that to happen.

你要對造成現狀的危言進行反駁。

And what do I mean by that?

我意思是什麽?

I promise you, every single time you get into a conversation

我敢保證，每一次你開始一個

關於保釋金改革 或刑事司法改革的話題時，

about bail reform or criminal justice reform,

會發生這種事情：

here's what happens:

所有人開始説起可怕的案子。

everybody starts talking about the scary case.

"But what about the guy who did X?"

「但是是犯下了 X 的那個人呢？」

So here's what I'm here -- to rest --

所以這是我在這裡的原因——

Just have you rest a little bit and sit with this, right?

我們先不要談論這個， 暫置一邊，好嗎？

Despite the fact that we have used our criminal legal system

儘管我們利用我們的刑事司法系統

and destroyed millions of people,

毀掉了數以百萬計的人，

that we have harmed people,

我們傷害了他們，

exposed them to trauma and violence,

我們日復一日地 使他們暴露在創傷和暴力中，

day after day after day,

the truth is, when people come home,

事實是，當人們回到家之後，

bad things happen rarely.

壞事很少發生。

It is the exception, not the rule.

壞事是例外，不是規律。

It is the extraordinary, not the normal.

它是非常的，而不是常態。

But if you don't know that,

但如果你不知道，

if you don't hold on to that,

如果你不堅持，

if you can't support that with data, which we can,

如果你不能用我們能 提供的數據來支持它，

you will be drawn into the narrative of fear

你會被拖進恐慌的陳述中。

that will lead us to justify

有色群體、低收入群體，

the kinds of horrors we have inflicted

以及被刑事司法系統坑害的人

upon communities of color and low-income communities

and people that become ensnared in our criminal legal system

長久來所遭受的殘酷對待

for far too long.

也因而被我們正當化。

So get educated --

所以去瞭解吧……

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Get educated, proximate, stay vigilant,

去瞭解，去接觸，保持警惕，

do not be drawn into the narratives of fear,

不要被野蠻和粗暴的

which are wildly and grossly racialized anyway.

種族化恐慌言論吞沒。

Check it when you hear it,

聽到的時候驗明一下，

question it when somebody says it to you,

問問那些告訴你的人，

ask for the data, "Why do you say that," right?

問問依據：「你爲什麽這麽説？」

And don't get drawn into that.

不要讓你自己深陷於其中。

And if you do,

如果你能做到，

I'm actually convinced

我相信

that we're at a moment where we will build a better criminal legal system.

我們處於建造更好 刑事司法系統的時刻上。

If you get proximate to this

如果你去接觸了

and you actually begin to engage in it,

你會開始參與其中，

we will not only be a better country,

我們的國家不僅會變得更好，

each of us will be better people.

我們也會是更好的人民。

And that is a worthy goal.

這是一個有價值的目標。

MZ: It's a very worthy goal.

瑪：這真是一個很有價值的目標。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

I mean, did I hit the jackpot with my first interview, or what?

我是在第一次採訪中 就撞頭彩了還是怎麽著？

She is badass.

她真的個厲害人物。

Robin Steinberg, the Bail Project, thank you so much.

蘿賓 · 斯坦伯格， 保釋金計劃，非常感謝。

RS: Thanks.

蘿：謝謝。

MZ: I'm Manoush Zomorodi,

瑪：我是瑪努什·左莫洛迪

I'm the new host of the TED Radio Hour, and I'll see you in the spring.

我是 TED Radio Hour 播客 節目的新主持，我們春天再見。

(Applause)

（掌聲）