Esther Perel: The routines, rituals and boundaries we need in stressful times | TED

Transcriber:

翻译人员: C Cheng 校对人员: Helen Chang

Helen Walters: Hi Esther Perel, thank you so much for joining us

海伦· 沃尔特斯： 嗨，埃丝特 佩雷尔 ，

非常感谢加入我们， 我想直接进入主题。

and I want to get right to it.

So we're more than a year into this pandemic now.

我们已经经历了一年多的全球疫情。

And I think one constant,

我想，不断升级的压力，

whether we're really acknowledging it or not,

不论我们是否承认，

has been heightened stress levels, shall we say.

已经成为一种持续状态， 如果可以这样说的话。

So I'm sure you've seen this in your practice and in your work.

我确信，你在工作和业务中 已经见到过这个现象。

And I'm curious, what are you recommending to people

我很想知道，如果人们找到你， 想要了解如何有效控制压力时，

who are coming to you wanting to know how to regulate stress effectively?

你对这些人的建议是什么？

Esther Perel: So, hello, Helen, here it is.

埃丝特·佩雷尔 ：你好，海伦。

You know, we're living in a time of existential anguish, of isolation,

是这样的，

我们生活的时代充满了 生存的痛苦、孤立隔绝、

of universal grief, economic insecurity, prolonged uncertainty.

普遍存在的苦闷、经济上缺乏保障， 和长期的不确定性。

And we have a tendency to call all this feelings stress.

我们倾向于把这些情感统统称为压力。

But stress is multidimensional.

但是压力是多维度的。

Researchers Susan David and Elissa Epel

研究员苏珊·大卫 和艾丽莎 · 埃佩尔

emphasize the importance of having to break it down into parts

强调了分解压力的重要性，

so that they become manageable.

这样压力就会变得更容易应付。

We have despair.

我们会感到绝望。

We have anxiety, exhaustion, sadness, anger, irritability.

感到焦虑、疲惫、悲哀、愤怒、烦躁。

All these feelings are part of stress.

所有这些情感都是压力的组成部分。

And when they are named and framed,

如果我们可以说出 并表述出这些情感的话，

we can better regulate them and deal with them.

就能够更好地控制应对这些情感。

Prolonged uncertainty at this moment is that notion that we are uncertain,

在当前，持久的不确定性意味着 我们感到世事难料，

but we also don't know how long this will last.

而且不知道这种状态还会持续多久。

This is not your typical disaster

这并不是一个典型的灾难状态，

where you have a warning and a planning

因为在典型的灾难中， 你会收到警报，制定计划

and an onslaught and a post.

你会受到冲击，并保持警觉。

We are in it and we don't know for how long.

而我们现在身处其中， 却不知何时是了。

We experience a sense of ambiguous loss where things are gone but still there,

我们体验到一种摸棱两可的丧失感： 失去的东西似乎仍然存在，

and it really prevents a sense of mourning.

而这种感觉阻碍了哀悼之情的形成。

Buildings are standing.

楼宇仍在。

They are physically present, the office buildings,

在物质上，那些办公楼仍然存在，

but they are emotionally hollow.

但是在情感上他们则变得空洞。

Family members are in nursing homes or in other countries.

家人住在老人院或者别的国家。

They are emotionally, psychologically very, very close to us,

他们在情感和心理上 与我们非常非常贴近，

but they are physically absent.

但是在物质世界里他们却缺席了。

And that sense of ambiguous loss is most exemplified

这种摸棱两可的丧失感 最清晰地体现在了

in what we are experiencing at this moment

我们此时此刻正在经历的

as the loss of Eros.

爱与创造力的丧失。

And the pandemic gripped the world.

全球疫情席卷了整个世界。

And then the pendulum that swings between freedom and security

于是那个摇摆在自由与安全之间钟摆

has snapped off its hinge.

折断了它的铰链。

There is a constant, extreme emphasis on safety

人们持续且极度重视安全性

and it cordons off.

这就将人封锁了起来。

We avoid the spaces where we can experience happenstance,

我们回避各种可能出现 偶发事件的场所，

chance encounters, mystery, surprise,

在那里我们会经历偶遇， 碰到神秘，或出人意料的事物。

all those elements of Eros that create a sense of aliveness

这些构成爱与创造性的元素 让我们在生活中感到

and vibrancy in our lives.

充满活力、生机勃勃。

That is the place where creativity and curiosity also meet.

这是创造力与好奇心相遇的地方。

So what are some of the things that people can do

因此，一旦我们这样理解压力，

once we understand stress in this way

就会知道有些事是人们可以做的，

is to create routines and rituals and boundaries.

包括建立日常常规， 创立生活仪式，以及设立边界。

Routines to separate the different activities,

建立常规是为了区分不同的活动，

the different roles and responsibilities that we inhabit,

不同的任务和我们所肩负的不同责任。

rituals because they create sacred time and sacred space

创立生活仪式是为了 营造一个神圣的时空，

and boundaries, because they create delineation, demarcation, borders,

而设立边界则是为了 对生活加以勾画，分割，和界定，

and those are really necessary for us

为了能够获得根基感和秩序感，

to experience a sense of groundedness and structure.

这些对于我们都极其必要。

And the second thing that really helps with stress as well

第二个可以真正帮助我们 缓解压力的事情是

is actually to create space for Eros.

为爱和创造性营造一个空间。

There's a reason people at this moment are seeing plants grow, seeing bread rise,

人们之所以在这个时候注意到 植物在生长，面包在发酵膨胀，

creating things, making things out of nothing.

从零开始创进行创造，

Because when you see life emerge in front of you

是因为当你看到生命在你面前呈现，

or something change in front of you,

或者某种变化出现在你的面前时，

it functions as an antidote to deadness and to stress.

这些经历具有对抗死亡， 缓解压力的功效。

HW: It's true. I can't tell you how many of my friends have adopted puppies

海· 沃：确实如此。你不知道 我有多少朋友在这个时期

in this time.

收养了小狗。

Everyone's a dog owner.

每个人都有一只狗。

EP: You know, we usually thrive

埃·佩：你知道，我们通常喜欢

on this casual sharing of personal stories with coworkers

与同事随意分享自身经历，

or going to a place for lunch

去一个

that we hadn't gone to and wanted to explore

想去却还没去过的地方吃午餐，

or talking to a kind stranger on the commute.

或者在通勤的路上 与善意的陌生人聊天。

All of these enlivening moments of our lives,

所有这些让生活 充满活力和惊喜的时刻

surprise moments of our lives, are currently not there.

都在当前消失了。

So the puppy, it really gives us all of that, you know, a pet amongst us.

一只小狗可以给予我们这一切， 它是我们当中的一只宠物。

So not just any pet, you know, an animal, a child.

不只是宠物，还有动物、孩子，

这些都是制造惊喜， 奥秘和自发性的天然资源。

Those are natural sources of surprise and mystery and spontaneity.

They bring the Eros right in front of us.

他们将爱和创造的冲动 直接摆在我们面前。

HW: I love that because I think it's such a good analysis of where we are

海· 沃：我很喜欢你的阐述， 因为它精彩地分析了我们当前的处境，

and what we've all been experiencing.

以及我们所有人的经历。

I think the flip side of this almost is

我想，反过来看，这差不多是在说

there's basically no such thing as control.

控制力这东西基本上不存在。对吗？

Right? And so I'm curious, you know,

所以我很想知道，

for those of us who used to have a life

对于我们这些人，过去的生活

that we understood in some ways --

从某些方面来说， 是为我们所了解的——

so we had the office, we had the home, we had these places where we could go

我们有间办公室，有一个家， 我们有可以去的地方，

and we kind of understood how the world was structured --

我们差不多了解 这个世界是如何建构的——

with the collapse of those roles and the collapse of those boundaries,

当这些职能和边界都坍塌时，

how do you regain a sense of yourself in this new world

你该如何在这个新世界里 重获自我意识呢？

and what are your tips for kind of establishing the boundaries,

对于划定新的边界，

like these new boundaries?

你有什么指教吗？

EP: We are not working from home,

埃·佩：我们不是在家工作，

we are working with home

而是和家一起工作，

and we are sometimes sitting on one chair.

有时，我们要同时扮演不同的角色。

I was doing a session for "How's Work?"

我曾与一家新闻编辑部合作 制作过一期节目，

with a newsroom,

为“工作进展如何？”

and one of the people was talking about how she has a new baby.

当时有一个人谈到 她刚刚生了一个宝宝。

She sits at home, she's nursing.

她待在家里，哺育孩子。

She's the mother. She's the colleague.

她是母亲，是同事。

She's the manager. She's the reporter.

她是经理，是记者。

She's the spouse. She's the daughter of.

她还是伴侣、女儿，

She's the friend.

和朋友。

She has all those roles coming together,

她将这些角色

全部集于一身，

merged in one place,

ever without having to leave her dining room table.

却从不需要离开餐桌半步。

And the mute button is basically her only boundary left

电话机上的静音键基本上是

唯一留存下来的， 分割两个世界的边界。

between one world and the other.

So what has she lost?

那么，她失去了些什么呢？

She lost the sense of community,

她失去了群体意识，

of collective support that she gets at work,

失去了在工作中获得的集体互助意识，

the ability to commiserate.

以及表达同情的能力。

She lost being a woman who is a mother who goes to work and is a working mother

她失去了成为职业母亲的机会。 她不能即是母亲，又外出工作，

because now she's actually working and mothering at the same time,

因为工作和育儿两件事在同时进行，

the whole day in the same place.

她整天呆在同一个地方。

That's a very different experience.

那是一种非常不同的体验。

And for her and every working parent at this moment,

此时此刻，对于 她和每位职业家长来说，

it is essential to communicate boundaries with partners.

与伴侣沟通，划清生活与 工作的边界是非常必要的。

We were talking yesterday -- and with colleagues as well.

我们昨天谈过—— 也与同事交流过。

We were talking yesterday.

我们昨天谈话时，

Your child came into the room and basically you notified,

你的孩子走进房间， 你也基本上注意到了，

I am home, I am alone, my son is here and he may show up.

我在家，自己一个人， 我儿子也在，他也许会冒出头来。

And indeed he did.

事实的确如此 。

And there is something very different

情况会截然不同，

when we don't try to hide our multiple realities,

如果我们不去试图 隐藏自己的多重现实，

but we actually integrate them

而是把他们切实地

整合到我们所处的各种境况之中。

in the midst of the situations that we are in.

Carving out a special sacred space,

开辟出一块特殊的神圣空间，

physical space to delineate the separations,

一个可以清楚分割 各个区域的物理空间，

I think at this point is extremely important.

这在此刻是极其重要的。

That involves, you know, even changing clothes.

这甚至包括更换衣服。

We are usually very localized people

我们通常是非常地域性的人。

and we change, we move to another place.

我们会换了衣服，再去另一个地方。

We have a ritual of preparing the things that we need to put in our bag,

在准备包里要装的各种物件时， 我们有一种仪式，

to go to the gym, to go to the restaurant, to go to see friends or family.

不论是去健身馆，去饭店， 还是去拜访朋友或家人。

None of these markers are currently there

这些能为我们带来 切身体验的标志性行为

to give us that embodied sense of experience.

目前都不存在了。

We are exhausted, basically.

基本上，我们感到筋疲力竭。

We use the word a lot,

我们经常使用“筋疲力竭”这个词。

but we don't always attribute exactly where that exhaustion is coming from

但是并不总能确定疲惫的来源。

and it comes from the loss of these delineations and demarcations,

感到疲惫感，是因为缺少这些边界线，

these boundaries that are very, very grounding to us.

而这些边界对我们来说 则是最最基本的东西。

HW: I don't know if you saw that video of the dad who was on telly with the BBC

海· 沃：不知你是否看过那个视频， 一位父亲正在BBC的电视直播上，

and his kid came in and then another kid came in.

他的一个孩子走了进来， 然后令一孩子也进来了。

He kind of strong-armed the kid out of the way.

他差不多用暴力赶走了这些孩子。

And I think what's beautiful about this is that we have, you know,

我认为，这个视频的精彩之处是

I think that we are all learning how to roll with this.

我们所有人都在学习 如何应对这种情况。

And, you know, now my son will come and join a meeting

我儿子现在会加入视频会议，

and everyone's just like waves and is like, "Hi Jack,"

每个人都会招手， 说，“你好，杰克。”

and, you know, and then he gets bored and wanders off again.

他感到无聊了，就会走开。

And that's kind of, you know, in a way, I think that's a really beautiful outcome.

在某种程度上， 我认为这是一个非常棒的结果。

I mean, it's a very lucky outcome

这是个值得庆幸的结果，

because I'm very lucky to be able to work at home

因为我很幸运，能够居家办公，

and have that kind of fortunate aspect of my life.

这是我生活中幸运的一面。

But I just think it's a beautiful outcome.

我只是觉得这是个非常好的结果。

EP: But you know, what's also very striking

埃·佩：但是你知道， 同样令人惊讶的是

is that you're not trying to hide it

你没有试图掩藏自己的境况，

and to whisk him away.

没有匆匆忙忙地把他赶走。

In a way I think, you know, we are integrating your home life,

我认为，我们正在以某种方式 整合你的家庭生活，

your reality as a mother alone at home with your child

你的现实：你是一位母亲， 你和孩子独自在家，

who is also working as part of our conversation.

同时，作为对话的一方，你也在工作。

And I think that this for me reflects a very interesting change in this moment,

在我看开，这反映了 目前一个非常有趣的变化，

which is a kind of an anti-small talk.

这是某种反闲聊式的对话。

You know, people are literally speaking about the things

人们一直在谈论一些

that they usually try to keep outside of the office door.

在办公室通常不会谈到的事情。

We usually bring our whole self to work.

我们常常把一个完整的自我 带到工作当中。

Right now, we are bringing our whole work to our personal world

而现在，我们把全部工作 带到了个人世界。

and that merging is creating

这种融合正在创造

a very different set of conversations as well.

一套非常不同的对话方式。

And those conversations are part of the collective resilience

而这些对话是集体适应力的一部分

that helps us deal with the loss of control,

它能帮助我们处理失控状态，

the prolonged uncertainty

应付长期存在的不确定性

and all the other stressors that we mentioned.

以及我们提到的所有其他 造成压力的因素。

HW: So how does this affect our ability to feel productive?

海· 沃：这如何影响 我们对自身工作成效的感知力呢？

I'm curious about that feeling of, like --

我对那种感觉很好奇。

at the end of the day I just did a really --

比如，一天结束时，我感到——

I nailed that project, so I did that really well.

我完成了那个项目，我干得很漂亮。

And I feel really good about that.

我对此感觉很棒。

I'm going to close the door and I'm going to leave and I'm going to go home again.

我现在可以关上门，下班回家了。

埃·佩：我要对此 做些少许不同的描述。

EP: I'm going to frame this a little differently.

社会学家，齐格蒙·鲍曼

Zygmunt Bauman, the sociologist,

的观察极其恰到好处。

basically made this very, very apt observation.

In abnormal circumstances,

在非正常情况下，

when people have abnormal responses,

人们会做出非常规的反应。

that is actually normal.

这其实是很正常的。

So this notion of wanting to continue to be how we used to be

所以，这种想要保持过去状态的想法

is one of the things that we need to release.

是我们应该放弃的。

We -- this is a time where we try to face our uncertainty

为了应对不确定性，

by being even more productive.

我们试图提高工作成效。

And so we end up working seven days

所以，我们最终选择一周工作7天，

instead of understanding that what really will help us get through this

却没有意识到真正 能够帮助我们渡过难关的

is a sense of mass mutual reliance,

是群体的相互信赖，

a deep sense of interdependence that we are in a shared experience

是一种对彼此依赖的深刻感受； 我们正经历着共同的命运，

and that collectively we need to go through this.

我们需要共渡难关。

That in itself will help us remain productive,

这种意识本身将 帮助我们保持工作效率，

but not the amount of hours that we are putting in

而不是投入工作的小时数。

or the notion that we have an outcome that is as good

同样毫无帮助的是这样一种想法： 我们现在的成果

as it would have been if none of this was happening

要与以前一样好， 就像什么都没发生。

because it is happening.

但是，因为事情已经发生，

We can't pretend that none of this is happening.

我们不能装作什么事都没有。

And I think that when we are able to acknowledge our reality

而且，我认为，我们需要 接受自己的现实，

and then respond accordingly,

并做出相应的反应。

it actually A -- makes us more productive,

这首先能让我们更富有成效，

B -- makes us less stressful

其次，可以减轻压力，

and C -- maintains our sense of connection,

最后，维持我们的连接感。

which ultimately is our greatest source of resilience

在应付当下这种状况时，

这是我们最终获得 适应性的最重要的源泉。

for dealing with this kind of situation.

HW: What are you hearing from managers about how they're dealing with this

海· 沃：从人员和组织机构方面来说，

in terms of their people and their organizations

管理者是如何处理这个问题的呢？ 你从他们那里听到了些什么？

and how are you helping them?

你会如何帮助他们呢？

EP: So what I hear from managers

埃·佩：我从管理者那里听到的是

are the same stresses that we've just mentioned,

我们刚刚提到的压力

is a new emphasis on not just on relationships

重新强调了人际关系，

and the importance of relational intelligence in the workplace,

以及人际智慧在工作场所中的重要性。

but of mental health and wellness,

不仅如此，它还强调了心理健康，

of an integration of an entire emotional vocabulary

以及整合一整套情感词汇的重要性，

that involves empathy and trust and psychological safety,

这涉及到，我们在讨论业绩指标时，

at the same time as we are discussing performance indicators.

还要建立同情心、信任感和心理安全。

What I bring to the conversation is really how do you create

我在交谈中试图引入的实际是

你该如何与一个团队进行 这种反闲聊式的交流对话。

these anti-small talk exchanges, conversations with a team,

and every team has a different culture for that.

每个团队对此都有不同的团队文化，

But it is about helping people,

但其主旨是为人们提供帮助，

inviting people to talk about how the big events

邀请人们谈一谈

世界上正在发生的重大事件

that are happening at this point in the world

are also manifesting in their personal lives.

是如何体现在自己的个人生活中的。

And I give them the example of my own startup, of EPGM,

我给管理者的例子是 我自己的创业企业，EPGM，

where we on Friday have literally shrunken the length of the meeting

我们缩短了每周五的例会，

and have taken a much longer time

并且花更多的时间

to check in with each other,

给彼此打电话，询问各自的近况。

about self-care,

我们谈论自我护理，

about the divisions that take place in our own families,

家庭内部的分裂，

about what have been the resources that have been most useful.

以及各种最实用的资源。

But it has become really a resource pool that has deepened the connections

这已经切切实实成了一个资源库， 加深了我们之间的联系，

and that has also fostered the resilience

促进了我们的适应性，

and has had very clear effects on the productivity.

也明显地影响着我们的生产力。

So I shared that with the companies that I work with and talk about stress

所以，我把这些经验 分享给了各个与我合作的公司。

谈论压力，边界，和沟通交流

and boundaries and communications

so that it helps people understand what they are going through,

可以帮助人们理解正在经历的事情，

but particularly that this is a shared collective experience

尤其是，他们的经历 是集体共同的经历，

they're going through

and not just something that is happening to them alone.

并不仅仅发生在他们自己身上。

Acute stress or pandemics fracture

重度压力或流行病可以造成解体

and create divisions

制造分裂，

because uncertainty leads people

因为，人们不再感到 拥有掌控权和确定性，

to want to confront the loss of their sense of mastery and certainty.

不确定性让人们 想要与这一缺失针锋相对。

And so it often invites a kind of polarization

这常常会在世界观上

about the worldview itself.

造成某种两级分化。

To create a shared vocabulary counters all of that.

创造一套共同的语言词汇 可以克服这一切。

And that is primarily what I do at this moment

这正是我此刻主要在做的事。

when I work with companies

当我与公司、合伙人，或管理者 一起工作的时候，

or cofounders or managers,

is to -- what you were saying before,

就如你刚才所说，

it's to name it, to frame it, to distill it,

是在确定、描述、提炼这些经历，

and then to be creative in how to respond to it.

然后再以创造性的方式应对它。

HW: I'm curious for your thoughts about what does this mean for the future of work

海· 沃：我很想知道，你认为 这对将来的工作意味着什么？

and how we should prepare for it.

我们该如何为此做好准备呢？

EP: Look, there's a lot of discussions about the future of work

埃·佩：关于未来工作的前景 已经有很多讨论。

that centers on the remote versus in-person

讨论集中在远程办公 与面对面办公的比较上，

and all of those things.

以及所有相关事宜。

I think for me, what this pandemic has really taught us

对我来说，这场疫情真正教会我的是

is that relational intelligence is not just a soft skill for the workplace,

人际智慧不仅仅是 工作场所中的软技能，

that mental health is really at the center at this moment

此时此刻，心理健康 是我们在工作中如何表现的关键。

of how we show up at work.

Work is a place today where we seek belonging, purpose, development,

工作现在是我们寻求归属感、 目的性，和自身发展的地方，

and way beyond just putting food on the table.

远远不只是为了谋生。

It is an identity economy.

这是一种身份经济学。

And those fundamental existential needs that people are bringing in,

人们挣来的基本的生活必须品，

psychological needs that people are bringing to work

以及带到工作中的心理需要，

are part of how we are going to redefine the future of the workplace.

将部分影响我们如何重新 界定未来的工作场所。

There are tendencies to talk about it in relation to technology, to AI,

现在的趋势是，在谈论这一话题时， 人们常把它与科技，人工智能，

and all those things are really important.

以及其他重要的事物联系起来。

But because of the technology,

但是，正是由于这些技术

because of the AI, because of all the loss of the human touch,

这些人工智能， 以及种种人性化的缺失，

the conversation about how we maintain humanity,

我们需要谈论如何保持人的本性，

how we maintain social connection,

如何维护社会联系，

how we allow people to show up --

如何让人得以展现——

You know, people always say, I want to bring my whole self to work.

你知道的，人们总是在说， 我想以完整的自我去工作。

And I say we already do.

我要说的是，我们已是如此。

All the skills that we cultivate in our lives

我们一生，从童年到成年，

and in our childhood, growing up,

所培养的技能

they show up with us at work

与我们一起展现在工作中。

and this moment has really made that beyond clear.

这一时刻将这一点 展示得再清楚不过了。

HW: Esther Perel, it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

海· 沃：埃丝特·佩雷尔，

与你交谈总是一件令人愉快的事。

Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us.

非常感谢与我们分享你的见解。

EP: It's a pleasure for me to be here.

埃·佩：很高兴来到这里。

Thank you.

谢谢。