Dr. Anthony Fauci: Is the pandemic actually over? It's complicated | TED

翻译人员: Cindy Zheng-Huang 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

David Biello: In the wake of Dr. Anthony Fauci's announcement

大卫·比洛（David Biello）：

随着安东尼·福奇博士 （Dr. Anthony Fauci）宣布

that he will be retiring

他将卸任

as the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases

国家过敏和传染病研究所所长

at the end of the year,

于年底,

I've invited him to join me for a conversation

我邀请他与我来一场对话

on the future of the COVID-19 pandemic,

关于 COVID-19 大流行的未来，

reflections on his career and the future of public health.

他对职业生涯的反思和 公共卫生的展望。

Please welcome Brooklyn's own Dr. Fauci.

请欢迎布鲁克林独一无二的福奇博士！

Anthony Fauci: Hi, David, nice to see you, thank you for having me.

AF: 你好，大卫，很高兴见到你， 谢谢你请我来。

DB: Thank you for joining us.

DB：感谢您加入我们。

So my first question is very simple.

我第一个问题很简单。

Is the COVID-19 pandemic over?

COVID-19 大流行结束了吗?

AF: You know, David, there's a lot of misinterpretation

AF: 你知道，大卫，这里有很多误解，

about what the meaning of the word "over" is,

对于“结束”这个词的含义，

it means different things to different people.

对不同的人意味着不同的事。

I'm sure you're referring to the comment made by the President a day or two ago.

我相信你指的是 总统一两天前做的评论。

If you're talking about the fulminant phase of the outbreak,

如果你说的是暴发流行期，

when we were having anywhere from 800,000 to 900,000 infections a day

当我们每天有 80 万至 90 万例感染，

and 3,000 to 4,000 deaths per day,

每日死亡三千至四千人，

that was several months ago.

那是几个月前的事了。

We are much, much better off now than we were then.

我们现在比当时的情形要好， 好很多了。

So in that case,

所以从这看来,

that fulminant phase of the outbreak is behind us.

那个疫情暴发阶段已经过去了。

But as the President made very clear on the second half of his sentence,

但正如总统明确表示， 在他的后半句，

is that, which they don't seem to show, is that he actually said

就是那，似乎没有显现出来， 就是他真正说的，

we still have a lot of work to do,

我们还有很多工作要做，

there's still a challenge ahead,

前面还有挑战，

we’ve got to get people vaccinated.

我们还要让人们接种疫苗。

We still have a number of cases,

我们还有很多病例，

we have 400 deaths per day.

我们每天有四百人死亡。

That's an unacceptably high level.

这是个无法接受的高水平。

So again, it depends on the semantics of what your definition is.

所以再次， 这取决于对词意 你的解释是什么。

We don't want anyone to get the impression

我们不想让任何人觉得

that we don't have a lot of work to do.

我们没有很多工作要做。

We've got to get the level of infection

我们必须使感染水平

considerably lower than it is.

比现在低很多。

And we've certainly got to get the level of deaths lower than it is.

我们当然要让死亡人数 低于目前水平。

So again, it depends on the semantics of what you mean by "end."

同样，这取决于语义 你所说的“结束”是什么意思。

DB: Well, let's get into those semantics then.

那么，让我们进入这些语义。

What conditions would need to exist for the pandemic to be over?

需要具备什么条件才是大流行结束？

AF: You know, that's a call

AF: 你知道，这是一个决定

that officially is made by the World Health Organization.

由世界卫生组织正式发布。

You know, my colleagues and I

你知道，我和我的同事

oh, it must have been more than ten years ago,

噢，那已经是十多年前的事了,

because of the lack of clarity

因为缺乏明确性

on what a pandemic means to one person versus another,

大流行对一个人和 另一个人意味着什么，

we wrote a paper in the Journal of Infectious Diseases

我们在传染病杂志上 写了一篇论文

in which we talked about all the different variations of interpretations.

我们在文中讨论了 所有各种不同的解释方式。

Is it a widespread phenomenon?

它是一种广泛传播的现象？

Is it the widespread nature throughout the world

它全世界广泛传播的特质？

that makes it officially a pandemic?

使得它正式成为大流行？

Or is it widespread and accelerating?

或是它广泛传播并增速发展？

Or is it widespread causing serious disease?

或是它的广泛传播 导致了严重疾病？

It means different things to different people.

它对不同的人 意味着不同的事情。

So rather than try and give a definition, that's my definition versus another,

因此，与其试图给出一个定义， 我的或别人的的定义。

we should stick with what the WHO is saying.

我们应该依照 世界卫生组织的说法。

And as Dr. Tedros said,

正如谭德塞博士（Dr. Tedros）所说，

that we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel on that.

我们看到了隧道尽头的光。

So, again, you might interpret that,

所以，再一次，你可以因此解释

well, if that's the case, is it over?

如果是这样的话，它结束了吗？

Well, again, what does "over" mean?

嗯，再说一遍， “结束”是什么意思？

There's a lot of semantics there, David.

大卫，那里有很多语义。

The easiest way not to confuse people is to say we still have a lot of cases,

最简单又不迷惑人的说法是 我们还有很多病例，

we still have 400 deaths,

我们仍有四百个死亡病例，

we only have 67 percent of the population vaccinated,

我们只有 67% 的人口接种了疫苗，

we've got to do better than that.

我们必须做得比这更好。

Of those, only one half have gotten a single boost.

其中，只有一半打了一次增强剂。

And as a nation,

作为一个国家，

we lag behind other developed countries

我们落后于其他发达国家,

and even some low- and middle-income countries

甚至一些中低收入国家,

in the level of vaccinations that we've been able to implement.

在我们能够实施的疫苗接种水平上。

So if you want to look it that way, we have a lot of work to do,

所以，如果你从这来看， 我们有很多工作要做。

and that's exactly what the President said.

这正是总统所说的。

DB: So speaking of vaccines, what's your advice?

DB: 说到疫苗， 你有什么建议？

I know we have the bivalent available now.

我知道我们现在有二价的。

What is your advice on which vaccines to get

您对接种哪种疫苗有何建议?

and when that's appropriate?

以及什么时候合适？

AF: Well, first, you've got to get your primary series.

AF: 好的，首先， 你必须接种你的初级系列。

So, I mean, that's the one where I said only 67 percent

就是我上面说，只有 67%

of the country has gotten their primary series,

我国的人口接种了 他们的初级系列，

which for the most part,

在大多数情况下

with some exceptions,

除了一些例外，

is an mRNA vaccine, either Moderna or Pfizer,

是一种 mRNA 疫苗，莫德纳或辉瑞

given anywhere from three to four weeks apart as the primary.

作为的初级疫苗间隔 3 - 4周。

Then the issue is about giving people booster shots.

然后问题是给人们注射增强疫苗。

So right now,

所以，现在

if you're asking a clear question,

如果你问的是一个明确的问题

of today,

今天的，

with the bivalent BA.4-5 boosters

有关二价 BA.4-5 增强剂

or updated vaccines is a better terminology to use,

或更新疫苗 是一个更好使用的术语，

they are available now throughout the country.

它们现在在全国各地都可以获得。

We've ordered 171 million doses.

我们已经订购了 1.71 亿剂。

Who should get it?

谁应该使用它？

Anyone who is vaccinated with the primary series

任何接种过初级系列疫苗的人

and has not received a shot

没有打过一针

longer than two months ago

超过两个月，

should get it.

应该接种它。

So if I got my last shot,

因此，如果我最后一次接种，

let’s say in July -- August, September,

假设是在 7 月、8 月、9 月，

two months later, you should get the bivalent.

两个月后， 你应该接种二价的。

If you were infected three months or more ago,

如果你在三个月前或更长时间被感染，

you should then get the updated vaccine.

你应该接种更新的疫苗。

Let me give you an example for clarity for the audience.

让我给你举个例子 为了让听众清楚。

I was infected in the end of June of this year,

我今年 6 月底被感染了，

even though I had been vaccinated.

即使我已经接种了疫苗。

Fortunately, because I was vaccinated,

幸运的是， 因为我接种了疫苗，

I had a relatively mild illness.

我的病相对比较轻。

At my age, had I not been vaccinated,

在我这个年纪， 如果我没有接种疫苗，

the chances are I could have had a real severe outcome

我很有可能得到非常严重的后果

because elderly are more prone to get severity of disease.

因为老年人更容易患上严重的疾病。

So if you take the end of June,

所以如果你拿六月底来算，

take the end of July, the end of August,

七月底，八月底

the end of September.

九月底

I plan to get my updated BA.4-5 bivalent

我计划接种更新的 BA.4-5 二价

at the end of September, the first week in October.

九月底，十月的第一周。

DB: I think that’s a very useful advice, and actually I will be doing the same.

DB： 我认为这是一个非常有用的建议， 实际上我也会同样做。

How are you personally navigating this stage in the pandemic?

您的个人是如何渡过 大流行的这一阶段?

What precautions are you taking, if any?

您采取了什么预防措施 如果有的话？

AF: Well, I certainly continue to take precautions.

AF: 当然，我当然会继续 采取预防措施。

And I think it's important that you ask me personally that question,

我认为你问我个人 这个问题很重要,

because people have different levels of risk of severity of disease.

因为人们患疾病严重程度的 风险水平不同。

I am a person who is relatively healthy,

我是一个相对健康的人，

but I'm at an elderly age.

但我在老年人年龄段。

I'm 81 years old.

我 81 岁了，

I'm going to be 82 in December.

12 月我就 82 岁了。

So I, statistically, would have more of a risk.

所以，从统计上来说， 会有更大的风险。

So the precautions I take,

所以我采取的预防措施：

I stay up to date on my vaccinations, number one.

我在疫苗接种上 保持最新状态，这是第一点。

And when I go to a place that's a congregate indoor setting

当我去一个室内聚集的地方，

where there are a lot of people

人多的地方，

and I don't know the status of their infection,

并且，我不知道他们感染的状况，

their vaccination or what have you,

他们的疫苗接种或有什么病。

I would, for the most part, wear a mask.

大部分情况下，我会戴口罩。

When I'm with people who I know what their status is,

当我知道他们状况的人， 在一起时，

people who are recently vaccinated

最近接种了疫苗的人，

or people who come in and test before they come in,

在他们来之前进行了测试的人，

I could have a dinner in my home or in the home of a friend

我可以在我家 或者在朋友家里吃晚饭，

without any concern.

没有任何顾虑。

But if I go to crowded places, certainly on an airplane,

但如果我去拥挤的地方， 比如是在飞机上,

even though it isn't required any more,

即使不再规定需要，

if I go on a prolonged or even a short airplane trip,

如果我去长时间 甚至是短暂的飞机旅行，

again, because of my increased risk as an elderly person,

再次，因为作为老年人， 我的风险增加，

I wear a mask on the plane.

我在飞机上戴口罩。

DB: So switching gears a little bit, or taking a step back,

DB：稍微换一下档， 或者停下来想一下,

are consecutive pandemics kind of our new reality?

连续大流行有点是我们的新现实吗？

We obviously had the monkeypox outbreak.

我们显然爆发了猴痘。

And if that is the case,

如果是这样的话，

how do we cope with consecutive pandemics?

我们要如何应对连续的大流行呢？

AF: Well, you know, we have had,

AF：嗯，你知道，我们曾经有，

probably without the general public noticing it much,

可能公众没有注意到太多,

we have had, in the history of our civilization,

在我们的文明史上，

outbreaks of emerging infections,

新兴感染的爆发,

some of which turn into pandemics.

其中一些演变成大流行。

We've had them before recorded history.

我们有史记录之前就有过它们。

We've had them in the lifetime of some of us, you and I.

我们有的在 有生之年经历了，你和我。

We're going through one right now.

我们现在正在经历着一次。

So given the fact that most of the outbreaks of new infections

鉴于大多数新感染的爆发

come from the animal-human interface,

来自动物与人的接触面，

which is sometimes intruded upon, as it were,

它有时被侵扰，

where people, either by climate change or by intruding on forests,

当人类因气候变化，或者侵入了森林，

“uninhabited by human” places in the world,

世界上的“无人区”，

you’re going to get jumping of species.

你会得到物种的跨跃。

Or in markets where you put animals from the wild

或者在市场上， 你把野生动物放在那里

in contact with humans,

与人类接触，

which is exactly what happened with SARS-CoV-1

这正是 SARS-CoV-1 发生的情况，

and highly likely happened with SARS-CoV-2.

并且极有可能 发生在 SARS-CoV-2 。

We will continue to get outbreaks.

我们将持续爆发疫情。

Pandemic flu generally comes from a situation

大流行性流感 通常来自一种情况

where you have the animal species that harbor influenza,

那里有携带流感的动物，

pigs, fowl,

猪、家禽，

birds and humans together in that environment.

鸟类和人类一起生活 在这样的环境中。

That's how you get the bird flu that tend to challenge us a fair amount

这就是你得禽流感的原因， 往往会给我们带来相当大的挑战

or the swine flu.

或者猪流感。

So the short answer to your question, David,

对你问题的简短回答， 大卫，

is that we will continue to get outbreaks of new infections.

我们将继续爆发新的感染吗？

The critical issue is how do you prevent them from becoming pandemics?

关键问题是如何防止它们 成为大流行？

And that's what's called pandemic preparedness,

而这就称为大流行防备。

which is a combination of scientific preparedness,

这是科学准备的组合，

like we did with the rapid development of vaccines for COVID-19,

就像我们快速生产 新冠肺炎疫苗，

which was a highly successful scientific endeavor,

这是一项非常成功的科学努力，

matched with a public health response,

与公共卫生反应相匹配，

which we didn't do as well, in the public health response,

我们在公共卫生反应中 相对来说没有做好,

because we had spread of infection

因为我们有感染传播，

in a way that we could have done better in controlling it.

我们本可以更好地控制它。

DB: So speaking of that, this is not your first epidemic,

DB：说到这，这不是你的第一次流行病，

but you've made historic contributions to the AIDS epidemic

但是你对艾滋病的流行做出了 历史意义的贡献，

and now COVID-19.

现在是新冠肺炎。

But is there anything you wish you had done differently in those cases?

但你是否希望自己有任何事情 做得有所不同吗？

AF: Well, there always is.

AF：嗯，总是有。

I mean, it's a question of when you're involved --

我是说，这是一个 你何时参与的问题——

Nobody is perfect, certainly not I or any of my colleagues.

没有人是完美的， 无论是我或我的任何同事。

But when you're dealing with an emerging,

但当你面对一个刚出现的

moving, dynamic target,

变化 ，动态目标，

which by definition is what a pandemic is,

按照定义，这就是大流行，

particularly if it's with a pathogen that you've never had experience with,

特别如果它是一种 你从未接触过的病原体，

like HIV in the very early 1980s,

就像 1980 年代初的 HIV 那样，

or the COVID-19 pandemic

或新冠肺炎大流行，

in the first months of 2020,

在 2020 年的头几个月，

you could always say,

你总可以说，

if we knew then what we know now,

如果我们当时 知道我们现在知道的,

and there was a lot of things that we didn't know,

那时我们有很多不知道的事，

we certainly would have done things differently.

我们肯定会做不同的事情。

And that's why you have to be humble and modest

这就是为什么 你必须谦逊和谦虚

to realize if you are going to be following the science,

意识到如果你要遵循科学，

the science which gives you data and information and evidence

科学为你提供数据、信息和证据

is going to change,

将会改变，

particularly in the early phases of the outbreak.

特别是在疫情暴发的早期阶段。

Did we know how easily it was spread from human to human?

我们知道它在人与人之间传播有多容易吗？

No.

不。

Did we know that it was aerosol spread?

我们知道这是气溶胶传播吗？

No.

不。

We thought in the beginning it was like influenza,

我们一开始以为这就像流感，

mostly droplets from a sick person.

主要是病人的飞沫。

Did we know that 50 to 60 percent of the transmissions

我们知道 50% 到 60% 的传播

were [from] someone who had no symptoms at all,

来自完全没有症状的人吗？

which clearly impacts how you approach an outbreak?

这明显影响了你如何应对疫情。

Did we realize that instead of the typical outbreak, where it goes up,

我们有没有意识到， 它与典型的疫情不同，

it comes down and then you're done with it,

它下来后你就完成了，

we had no concept that you'd be seeing different waves

我们没有想到你会看到不同的浪潮

and different variants that came along.

以及随之而来的不同变种。

So the answer to your question,

所以你问题的答案是

if we knew all of that from the beginning,

如果我们从一开始就知道这一切，

we certainly would have done things differently.

我们肯定会做不同的事情。

But unfortunately we didn't.

但不幸的是，我们没有。

And you try to be flexible enough and humble enough

你努力做到足够灵活和谦逊

to change and modify how you approach things

改变和修正你如何处理事情，

based on the recent data.

基于最新的数据。

That’s not flip-flopping.

这不是改变观点，

That is truly following the evidence and following the data.

这是真正的遵循证据和数据。

DB: Right, that's just how science works,

DB：是的，这就是科学的运作方式，

it's constantly updating

它不断更新，

and especially in a real-time situation like this pandemic.

尤其是在这次大流行 这样的实时情况下。

But are there any, I don't know, specific regrets you have,

但我不知道你有没有什么特别的遗憾，

something you would take back if you could?

如果可以，你会收回的东西？

AF: Well, it depends.

AF：嗯， 这得看情况。

Yeah, I mean, obviously in the beginning when we were under the impression,

是的，我的意思是，很明显， 一开始我们在印象中，

or didn't fully realize that there was aerosol spread,

或者没有充分意识到有气溶胶传播，

we were under the impression, which was true,

我们就有这样的印象，这是真的，

because we were told that,

因为我们被告知，

that there weren’t enough masks for the health care providers.

没有足够的口罩供医护人员使用。

And if we started everybody hoarding masks,

如果我们开始大家囤积口罩，

there wouldn't be masks available to the health care providers.

不会有口罩可提供给医疗工作者。

We didn't realize that out of the health care setting,

我们没有意识到在医疗环境中

like the hospital setting,

比如医院环境，

that masks were effective in preventing acquisition and transmission.

口罩能有效防止感染和传播。

We didn't know that.

我们当时不知道。

We know it now for sure, but we didn't know it then.

我们现在肯定知道， 但当时我们不知道。

We didn't know that the silent spread from people who were without symptoms.

我们不知道无声的传播 来自没有症状的人

And that meant we didn't know that, while we were looking for sick people,

这意味着我们在寻找病人时不知道，

there were many, many, many more people without symptoms that were in society

有很多、很多、很多 没有症状的人在社区中

spreading the infection

正传播着感染

in a way that was not detectable, below the radar screen.

以一种无法检测的方式 在关注范围以下。

Had we known that,

如果我们知道，

I absolutely would have said right from the beginning,

我绝对会从一开始就说，

everybody wear a mask all the time in an indoor setting.

在室内环境中， 每个人都要戴口罩。

But we didn't say that then.

但我们当时没有这么说。

It was only when it became obvious.

只有当它变得明显时。

So if we had known that early on,

所以如果我们早就知道了，

we would have told people to wear a mask.

我们会告诉人们戴口罩。

However, I must say, David,

然而，我必须说，大卫，

given the reluctance of people to wear masks,

鉴于人们不愿戴口罩，

even now that we know all that stuff,

即使现在我们知道了所有这些，

I'm wondering how well that would have been received

我仍在琢磨接受程度会怎么样，

if at a time when there were ten or so documented infections,

如果有十个左右的感染记录。

if you told the country that everybody should wear a mask in an indoor setting,

如果你告诉国家 每个人在室内都应该戴口罩，

not so sure that would have been broadly accepted.

不太确定这会被广泛接受。

DB: Yeah. And this seems to be something that,

DB：是的, 这似乎是这样的。

the United States anyway, has been through before,

反正美国也经历过

with the Spanish flu

西班牙流感，

and masking and then anti-mask protests.

戴口罩和反口罩的抗议。

And it seems to be in our, let's say,

它似乎在我们的，比方说，

societal immune response to these pandemics.

社会对这些流行病的免疫反应。

Flipping it a little bit,

稍微翻转一下，

how do we make sure we're not caught so, sort of, unprepared next time?

我们如何确保下次 不会被抓得措手不及？

AF: Well, you know, it's interesting, David,

AF：你知道，这很有趣，大卫，

what you mean by unprepared,

你所说的毫无准备,

because the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health

因为约翰·霍普金斯公共卫生学院

evaluated different countries' preparedness for a pandemic.

评估了不同国家应对大流行的准备情况。

And guess who was evaluated to be first in the world?

猜猜谁被评为世界第一？

The United States of America.

美利坚合众国。

Guess who has the most deaths per population?

猜猜谁的死亡人数最多？

The United States of America.

美利坚合众国。

So, you know, there's preparedness,

所以，你知道，这是准备，

and there's response,

而那是响应，

there's execution of your preparedness plans

那是防备计划的执行力

that we did not do so well

我们做得不够好。

for any of a number of complicated reasons,

由于许多复杂原因，

one of which was the fact,

其中之一是事实，

and is, that this outbreak occurred

就是，这次疫情发生在

at a time of really profound and deep divisiveness in our own country.

我们自己国家非常严重分歧的时刻。

That where we had something we hadn't seen before,

在我们以前没见过的地方,

where political ideology played a role in whether you did or did not accept

那政治意识形态影响了， 你接受或不接受

the recommended public health countermeasures,

公共卫生所推荐的对策

be it wearing a mask,

无论是戴口罩，

indoor settings, quarantining, taking a vaccine, getting a boost.

在室内环境， 隔离，接种疫苗，接种增强剂

If you look at the country

如果你看这个国家

and look at the demography of the country with regard to ideology,

看看这个国家 在意识形态相关的人口结构，

there should never be that red states vaccinate much less than blue states.

疫苗接种量永远不应该 红州比蓝色州少很多。

There's no reason for that at all because public health risks

这根本没有理由 因为公共卫生风险，

and public health implementation should be uniform throughout.

公共卫生实施应到处一样。

And we didn't see that.

我们没有看到。

DB: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more

DB：是的，让我们再谈一谈，

because obviously, you've had to cope with an incredibly polarized response

因为很明显， 您不得不应对令人难以置信的两极化反应。

to your work

您的工作，

in which not just ordinary citizens,

不仅是普通公民，

but even politicians have called for your resignation

但就连政客都要求您辞职，

and various other things.

以及其他各种事情。

How do you deal with that, how do you keep your cool?

您是怎么处理的， 您是怎么保持冷静的？

You're quite cool about this.

您对此很冷静。

AF: Well, calling for your resignation is mild

AF：嗯，要求你辞职是温和的，

compared to having somebody arrested

与逮捕某人相比

who was trying to kill you.

他想杀了你。

So, I mean,

所以，我的意思是

there's a big spectrum of pushing back against public health people.

有很多人反对公共卫生人员。

And that's one of the really unfortunate things.

这是一件非常不幸的事情。

I mean, I keep my cool because that's just the nature

我是说，我保持冷静， 因为这是本性，

of the kind of person that I am.

我是那种人。

When you're dealing with a very, very difficult situation,

当你面对非常非常困难的局面时，

you've got to keep your cool.

你必须保持冷静

I mean, I learned that in my early training in medicine.

在早期医学培训中 我就学会了这一点。

When you're in the middle of emergency, somebody is dying in front of you,

当你处于紧急状态时， 有人在你面前将要死去

you've got to keep your cool all the time.

你必须一直保持冷静。

And that's something that's just part of my inherent training

这只是我固有训练的一部分

as a physician and as a person.

作为一名医生和一个人。

But what we faced was well beyond that.

但我们面临的远不止这些。

I mean, public health officials, not only myself, I'm a very visible one,

我的意思是，公共卫生官员， 不仅是我自己，我是一个非常显眼的人

but many of my colleagues are being threatened and hassled

但我的许多同事都受到威胁和烦扰，

and harassed,

被骚扰，

themselves and their families,

他们自己和他们的家人、

the way my family is being harassed,

我的家人被骚扰的方式，

merely because of saying things

仅仅因为说了些什么

that are purely public health, common sense,

纯粹的公共卫生常识，

tried and true principles of how to keep people safe.

久经考验的 如何保护人们安全的真实原则。

That is really extraordinary that that's going on in our country.

在我们国家发生的事情真的很不寻常。

DB: Yeah.

DB：是啊。

I'm also going to ascribe it to the Brooklyn upbringing.

我还要把这归于布鲁克林的培养。

That gave you some cool, too.

这也让你很酷。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But a quick follow up,

但一个快速追踪

how do you, like,

您是怎么，比如

with all that going on, with those horrifying threats,

所有这些都在发生， 还有那些可怕的威胁，

how do you unwind from all this?

您是怎么从这一切中解脱出来的呢？

How do you, you know, keep it together

您是怎么做到挺住的

and give yourself some space to breathe?

给自己一些喘息的空间？

AF: Well, I have an extraordinarily supportive family,

AF：我有一个非常支持我的家庭，

my wife who's with me,

我妻子和我在一起，

my children are grown and live in different parts of the country.

我长大的孩子，她们生活在国家的不同地方，

But they are very supportive of me with texts and calls

但她们非常支持我， 通过发短信和打电话，

and knowing what I'm going through.

知道我正在经历什么。

So I have three daughters, which they, you know,

我有三个女儿，你知道的，

they try to take care of their daddy, so it really helps.

她们尽力照顾他们的爸爸， 所以这真的很有帮助。

But my wife is extremely supportive, and we do things together.

而我妻子非常支持我， 我们一起做事。

I mean, I work a preposterous amount of hours a day,

我的意思是， 我每天工作的时间多得离谱，

but every day I try to get some exercise in

但每天我都努力做些运动，

and it's usually a few mile walk with my wife,

通常和我妻子走几英里，

whether that's on the weekends very early in the morning,

无论是在周末的清晨，

or during the week late at night when I come home.

或者在工作日的深夜 我回家时。

We try to get some form of exercise in to diffuse the tension,

我们试图通过一些锻炼 来缓解压力，

hopefully every day.

希望每天都如此，

And we're pretty successful at that.

我们在这方面非常成功。

AF: Well, good for you.

DB：嗯，这对您很有好处！

So you're retiring after a very long and distinguished career.

所以，您在经历了 漫长而杰出的职业生涯之后，即将退休。

Congratulations.

恭喜！

You will have successors.

你会有接班人。

What lessons would you want to offer your successors based on your tenure?

您希望为您的继任者提供哪些经验教训？ 基于您的任职

AF: First of all, I’m not retiring in the classic sense.

AF：首先，我不是传统意义上的退休。

As my wife, says, David,

正如我妻子所说，大卫，

I’m “rewiring,” not retiring,

我正在“重新布线”，而不是退休，

because I do intend to be very active.

因为我确实打算非常活跃。

And that was one of the reasons why I stepped down

这也是我走下来的原因之一

at this point in time.

在这个时间点。

Because while I still have the enthusiasm,

因为当我还有热情，

the energy and thank goodness, the good health

精力充沛，谢天谢地，身体健康，

to be able to do something else for the next few years,

能够在接下来的几年里 做一些其他的事情，

I want to use the benefit of my experience of being at the NIH

我想利用我在 NIH 的经验

for almost 60 years,

有将近 60 年的时间

for being the director of the Institute for 38 years,

担任研究所所长 38 年，

and for having the privilege

并有幸

of advising seven presidents of the United States

为七位美国总统提供提供咨询

on public health issues,

关于公共卫生问题，

to use that experience to hopefully inspire by writing,

希望利用这段经历激发写作的灵感，

reading, traveling, lecturing,

阅读、旅行、演讲，

inspiring the younger generation of scientists and would-be scientists

激励年轻一代科学家和未来科学家

to at least consider a career in public service,

至少考虑从事公共服务,

particularly in the arena of public health,

特别是在公共卫生领域，

and science and medicine.

以及科学和医学。

Having said that,

话说回来，

my advice to the person who will ultimately replace me

我对那最终接替我的人的建议

would be to focus on the science

将是专注于科学，

and be consistent with the science

并与科学保持一致

and do not get distracted by a lot of the peripheral things,

并且被很多周围事物分心，

the disinformation, the misinformation,

虚假信息，错误信息，

the attacks on medicine and science and public health.

对医学、科学和公共卫生的攻击。

Focus like a laser beam on what your job is

像激光束一样专注于你的工作上，

and don't get distracted by all the other noise that's out there

不要被外面其他的噪音所分心，

because there is a lot more noise now

因为现在有更多的噪音

than there was a few decades ago.

与几十年前相比。

And by noise, I mean misinformation and disinformation about science.

我所说的噪音是指 对于科学的错误信息和虚假信息。

DB: For sure.

DB：当然。

I've definitely noticed that as the science curator.

作为科学馆长， 我确切地注意到了这一点

But pivoting a bit, let's talk about hope.

但是稍转一下，让我们谈谈希望。

What gives you hope about the future?

是什么让您对未来充满希望？

Are there treatments or other things coming down the pipeline

是否有治疗或其他办法陆续到来

that you're excited about?

让您感到兴奋？

AF: Well, science is an absolutely phenomenal discipline.

AF：嗯，科学是一门绝对了不起的学科，

It's discovery.

它是去发现。

It's ...

它是……

brand new knowledge.

全新的知识，

Pushing back the frontiers of knowledge

推动知识的前沿，

that we would not have imagined we would be in.

我们不会想象我们会在会在其中。

If you look at medicine and science,

如果你看看医学和科学，

how it's changed in a very, very positive way

它是如何以非常、 非常积极的方式改变的。

from the time I stepped into medical school in 1962

从我踏入医学院在 1962 年

to the time now of the things that are available to me

到现在为止，我可用的东西，

as a physician and as a scientist.

作为一名医生和科学家。

I have great hope

我有很大的希望，

that if we continue the investments in basic and applied science,

如果我们继续投资于基础和应用科学，

that we will be able to accomplish things

我们将能够完成事情。

in the arena of health, individual health,

在健康领域，个人健康，

and public health and global health

公共卫生和全球卫生。

that were really unimaginable just decades ago.

就在几十年前，这真的是难以想象的。

So I have a great deal of optimism

所以我非常乐观

about what the future holds for science and medicine.

对于科学和医学的未来。

And that's the reason why one of the things I'm going to try and do

这就是为什么我要尝试做的一件事，

in my rewired post-government life

在我重新规划的后政府生活中

is to encourage young individuals to consider a career in medicine,

鼓励年轻人考虑从事医学职业，

science and public health,

科学和公共卫生，

because the opportunities are really limitless.

因为机会真的是无限的。

We are at a stage now the likes of which people who antidated us

我们现在正处于这样一个阶段， 那些以前的人

never would have imagined

从未想象得到

the opportunities in science that we have.

我们拥有的科学机会。

So I'm very optimistic about where we're going.

所以我对我们的发展方向非常乐观。

DB: Me, too.

DB：我也是。

But you mentioned earlier how climate change is affecting pandemics.

但您之前提到气候变化 如何影响大流行，

What worries you about the future that we're facing?

您对我们所面临的未来感到担忧的是什么？

AF: Well, just some of the things that you mentioned.

嗯，只是你提到的一些事情，

We do have a growing element of anti-science in society.

我们的社会中 确实有越来越多的反科学因素。

Disturbingly,

令人不安的是，

growing in the United States.

在美国增长。

And when I talk to my colleagues internationally,

当我和国际上的同事交谈时，

depending upon the country that they live in

取决于他们居住的国家

to a greater or lesser degree,

或多或少地，

there's some element of that.

这其中有一些因素。

The thing that bothers me

困扰我的事情

is a denial of science and what science is showing us.

是对科学以及 科学向我们展示的东西的否定。

A denial of the issues of climate and the environment,

否认气候和环境问题，

a denial of scientific principles

否认科学原则，

and conspiracy theories about things that push people away.

以及把人推开的阴谋论。

I mean, some of them are laughable,

我的意思是，有些很可笑，

but you would be astounded, David,

但你会感到惊讶，大卫，

at the number of people who believe it.

相信它的人数之多。

That the vaccines were made by Bill Gates and I

疫苗是由比尔·盖茨和我制造的，

and we put a chip in it

我们在里面放了一个芯片，

so that we could follow people around

这样我们就能到处跟踪人，

and know what they're doing and get into their head.

知道他们在做什么并进入他们的头脑。

The idea that there's a conspiracy,

有个构想、有阴谋的想法，

that we’re making billions of dollars on vaccines,

我们在疫苗上赚了数十亿美元，

and that's why people are promoting vaccines,

这就是人们推广疫苗的原因，

so that people like me and others who are public figures ...

所以像我这样的人和其他公众人物……

I mean, based on no data.

我的意思是，没有数据基础。

But once it gets into the social media,

但一旦它进入社交媒体，

it explodes and conspiracy theories explode.

它炸开了，阴谋论炸开了，

Even though all of the evidence proves it wrong,

尽管所有证据都证明这是错误的，

proving something wrong today doesn't seem to matter much.

证明一些错误，今天似乎无关紧要。

That's really strange and weird, isn't it, David?

这真的很奇怪，很怪诞， 不是吗，大卫？

DB: Yeah, yeah.

DB：是的，是的。

Well, it's, I think, an old phenomenon.

嗯，我认为这是一个古老的现象。

There's a famous saying that I'm going to mangle about

有一句名言我要说，

by the time the truth gets out of the barn,

当真相传出谷仓时,

the lie is halfway around the world.

这个谎言绕了半个地球。

And that's definitely the world we're living in.

这绝对是我们现在生活的世界。

I do know you have to go and, you know,

我知道您要走了，

finish out your tenure

结束您的任期，

and then get ready for your rewiring, which I'm excited about.

然后准备好重新布线， 这让我很兴奋。

I'm excited to see what's next.

我很高兴看到接下来会发生什么。

But do you have a last bit of advice for the public?

但您对公众有最后一点建议吗？

One thing you hope everyone takes away from your time as director

您希望每个人都能从 您院长任期带走的一样东西

and your time in public health?

以及您在公共卫生领域的时间？

AF: Yeah, David, there are so many things,

AF：是的，大卫，有太多了，

but I think one thing that stands out,

但我认为有一点很突出,

particularly in the climate and the environment

特别是在气候和环境方面，

that we're in right now,

我们正处在的

is that people need to get involved in a proactive way

人们需要以积极主动的方式参与，

in spreading the truth about what scientific principles are

传播关于什么是真正科学原则，

and what they mean

以及它们的含义，

and how they can be of great benefit to society

以及它们如何对社会产生巨大的益处，

and to try and make our population more science literate than it is right now

并努力让我们的人口 比现在更懂科学，

by talking about things.

通过讨论事情。

The truth, you know, the easiest way

事实，你知道，最简单的方法

to counter misinformation and disinformation

去打击错误信息和虚假信息，

is to be enthusiastic about spreading correct information.

就是要热心传播正确的信息。

A little bit about the metaphor that you said about the truth and lies.

关于你所说的关于真相和谎言的比喻

Be spreaders of facts and truth.

成为事实和真理的传播者。

Everybody's got to be a contributor to that.

每个人都必须为此做出贡献。

And that's one of the things I think we can do better.

这就是其中一件我认为 我们可以做得更好的事。

DB: Yeah, I would agree.

DB：是的，我同意。

And we're definitely trying here at TED.

我们正在 TED 这里尝试这样做。

Well, Dr. Fauci, I know our members are incredibly thankful,

福奇博士我知道我们的成员非常感激，

I personally am incredibly thankful.

我个人非常感激。

So thank you so much for your work and for joining us today.

非常感谢您所做的工作和今天加入我们，

AF: My pleasure, David, thank you so much for having me.

AF：这是我的荣幸， 大卫，非常感谢你邀请我。

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