Anil Seth: How your brain invents your "self" | TED

Transcriber:

翻译人员: Cong Wei 校对人员: Bruce Wang

Who am I? Who is anyone, really?

我是谁？人本质上到底是怎样的存在？

When I wake up in the morning and open my eyes,

我每天早上醒来，一睁开眼，

a world appears.

世界就呈现在眼前。

These days, since I've hardly been anywhere,

最近，因为我哪儿也去不了，

it's a very familiar world:

眼前这个世界简直不要太熟悉：

there's the wardrobe beyond the end of the bed,

床脚的另一边竖着个衣柜，

the shuttered windows and the shrieking of seagulls,

窗户是关上的， 但仍能听见海鸥刺耳的叫声，

which drives Brighton residents like me absolutely crazy.

这声音一直折磨着 住在布赖顿的我

But even more familiar is the experience of being a self,

但其实，比这更令我们感到熟悉的 是作为自我个体存在的体验，

of being me,

这种体验让我在做自己的同时，

that glides into existence at almost the same time.

与我的存在相融合。

Now this experience of selfhood is so mundane

这种自我体验由于过于真实平淡，

that its appearance, usually, just happens without us noticing at all.

以至于很多时候 我们根本感受不到它的存在。

We take our selves for granted,

我们常常把自己的存在当成是理所当然，

but we shouldn't.

但，其实不应该这样。

How things seem is not how they are.

一个事情看起来往往和实际是不一样的。

For most of us, most of the time,

对于绝大部分的人来说，大部分时间，

it seems as though the self, your self, is an enduring and unified entity --

自我，你的自我，看上去 像是一个永存的、统一的个体 --

in essence, a unique identity.

或者本质上，是一种独一无二的身份

Perhaps it seems as though the self is the recipient

可能在我们看来 自我是

of wave upon wave of perceptions,

接收一波又一波感知的接收器。

as if the world just pours itself into the mind

整个世界好像都透过感官这个透明窗口，

through the transparent windows of the senses.

自发投入到我们的意识里。

Perhaps it seems as though the self is the decision-maker in chief,

又或者我们认为自我是那个 能做最终决定的首领，

deciding what to do next and then doing it,

决定下一秒我们要做什么 然后就付诸行动，

or, as the case may be, doing something else.

当然，也有可能， 你的行动会和决定不一致。

We sense, we think and we act.

人们感知、思考然后行动。

This is how things seem.

看起来似乎就是这么个过程。

How things are is very different,

但其真实过程，与这大相径庭，

and the story of how and why this is so

至于为什么，以及如何是这样

is what I want to give you a flavor of today.

正是我今天想跟大家来探讨的。

In this story, the self is not the thing that does the perceiving.

在今天的探讨中， 自我不是感知的接收方。

The self is a perception too,

自我本身也是一种感知，

or rather, it's the collection of related perceptions.

更确切地说，它是 一堆相关感知的集合体。

Experiences of the self and of the world

对自我和世界的感知体验，

turn out to be kinds of controlled hallucinations,

其实类似一种受控的幻觉。

brain-based best guesses

一种基于大脑活动的最佳猜测结果

that remain tied to the world and the body

它与世界及人体的关联，

in ways determined not by their accuracy,

不由其准确性决定，

but by their utility,

而由其实用性，

by their usefulness for the organism in the business of staying alive.

在生存机制中的实用性决定。

Now the basic idea is quite simple,

这个基本的概念非常简单，

and it goes back a very long way in both science and philosophy --

从科学和哲学的角度都有源可溯，

all the way back, in fact, to Plato

非常渊远，实际上，可以追溯到柏拉图，

and to the shadows cast by firelight on the walls of a cave,

追溯到一个火把在石洞墙上投影，

shadows which the prisoners within took to be the real world.

就足以让洞穴里的禁锢者将其认为 那就是真实世界的时候。

Raw sensory signals,

原感官发出信号，

the electromagnetic waves that impinge upon our retinas,

形成的电磁波打在我们的视网膜上，

the pressure waves that assault our eardrums, and so on,

这种带压的波段击打 着我们的耳鼓膜，等等

well, they're always ambiguous and uncertain.

嗯，这些信号总是模棱两可， 充满不确定性，

Although they reflect really existing things in the world,

尽管它们是对世界真实存在事物的反映，

they do so only indirectly.

但这种反映是间接的。

The eyes are not transparent windows from a self out onto a world,

我们的眼睛不是一个 连通自我和世界的透明窗户。

nor are the ears,

眼睛也不是。

nor are any of our senses.

任何一种感官都不是。

The perceptual world that arises for us in each conscious moment --

我们在每一个有意识 的瞬间所感知到的世界

a world full of objects and people,

都是一个充满着人和事物的世界，

with properties like shape, color and position --

都有其基本属性，如： 形状、颜色和位置，

is always and everywhere created by the brain,

它随时随地地形成于我们的大脑，

through a process of what we can call “inference,”

通过一个我们称作 “推断”的过程而形成。

of under-the-hood, neurally implemented brain-based best guessing.

是一种由大脑引擎推动 而得出的最佳猜测结果。

Now ...

现在……

Here's a red coffee cup.

当我看到这个红色的咖啡杯， 我有意识地看着它的时候

When I see this red coffee cup, when I consciously see it,

它就是一个红色的咖啡杯。

that's because "red coffee cup" is my brain's best guess

那是因为“红色的咖啡杯”是我大脑

of the hidden and ultimately unknowable sensory signals that reach my eyes.

基于到达我眼睛上隐藏未知的感知信号 而得出的最佳猜测结果。

And just think about the redness itself, for a moment.

现在，想一想红色本身，

Does the color red exist in the world?

它是世界的真实存在吗？

No, it doesn't.

不，不是。

And we don't need neuroscience to tell us this.

我们不需要神经科学，就知道这点。

Newton discovered long ago that all the colors we experience,

牛顿在很久之前就发现， 我们对所有颜色的感知，

the rainbow of the visible spectrum,

能见到的各种颜色，

are based on just a few wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation,

都是基于一些电磁波段辐射而形成，

which itself is, of course, entirely colorless.

其本身当然是没有任何颜色的。

For us humans,

对我们人类而言，

a whole universe of color is generated from just three of these wavelengths,

整个宇宙的颜色通过三个波段感知形成，

corresponding to the three types of cells in our retinas.

它们与我们视网膜上的三种细胞相呼应，

Color-wise, this thin slice of reality, this is where we live.

对颜色的感知，就是这样 一个简单的现实过程。

Our experience of color --

我们对于颜色的感知，

indeed, our experience of anything --

事实上，我们对于任何事情的感知

is both less than and more than whatever the real world really is.

都同时少于或多余它的真实存在。

Now what's happening when we experience color

我们感知颜色的时候，

is that the brain is tracking an invariance,

我们的大脑在记录一种不变性，

a regularity in how objects and surfaces reflect light.

一种物体和表面反射光的规律性。

It's making a best guess,

是一个得出最佳猜测结果的过程，

a top-down, inside-out prediction,

是一种对相关感官信号成因进行的，

about the causes of the relevant sensory signals,

从内到外，自上而下的预测。

and the content of that prediction --

预测的内容，

that's what we experience as red.

就是我们感知到的红色。

Does this mean that red is in the brain, rather than the world?

这意味着红色存在于我的大脑， 而不是真实世界？

Well, no.

嗯，不是

The experience of redness requires both the world and a brain,

对红色的感知同时依赖于 世界和我们的大脑

unless you're dreaming, but let's not worry about that for now.

除非你是在梦境里， 现在，我们不需要想着解释那个，

Nothing in the brain is actually red.

红色事实上不存在我们大脑里。

Cézanne, the great impressionist painter,

伟大的印象派大师保罗·塞尚说过，

once said that color is where the brain and the universe meet.

颜色是大脑和宇宙的合集。

Now the upshot of all this

现在，说到这一切的要点，

is that perceptual experience is what I've come to call,

感知体验，就是我在借鉴 他人的说法的基础上称之为的

drawing on the words of others,

a “controlled hallucination.”

“受控的幻觉”

Now this is a tricky term, prone to misunderstandings,

这是一个容易引起误解的术语，

so let me be clear.

所以，请容许我澄清一下，

What I mean is that the brain is continuously generating predictions

我的意思是，大脑在不断地

about the causes of sensory signals,

对感官信号进行预测，

whether these come from the world or from the body,

不管这些信号来自于世界还是人体本身，

and the sensory signals themselves serve as prediction errors,

这些感官信号本身充当的是 预测误差的角色。

reporting a difference

报告着一种差异性，

between what the brain expects and what it gets,

一种大脑的预期内容 和接收内容之间的差异。

so that the predictions can be continuously updated.

因此，这些预测也是 在持续不断进行更新的。

Perception isn't a process of reading out sensory signals

预测不是一个，

in a bottom-up or outside-in direction.

从下自上，由内到外读 取感官信号的过程，

It's always an active construction,

它总是一种活跃着的构建，

an inside-out, top-down neuronal fantasy

一种由内自外，从上至下，

that is yoked to reality

与真实世界相连通的神经幻想，

in a never-ending dance of prediction and prediction error.

是一支预测和预测误差的永恒共舞。

Now I call this process controlled hallucination

我将这个过程称作“可控的幻觉”。

to emphasize just this point.

我们所有的体验都是，

All of our experiences are active constructions

arising from within,

一种由内而生的活跃着的构建过程，

and there's a continuity here,

并存在着一种延续性，

between normal perception and what we typically call hallucination,

存在于正常感知和我们称之为 的幻想之间的延续性，

where, for example, people might see or hear things that others don't.

例如，人们可能能看到或听到其他人 看不到或听不到的事物

But in normal perception,

但是，在正常感知过程中，

the control is just as important as the hallucination.

控制和幻想扮演着同样重要的角色。

Our perceptual experiences are not arbitrary.

我们的感知体验不是随意性的。

The mind doesn't make up reality.

我们的心智不生产现实。

While experienced colors need a mind to exist,

就像感知颜色需要心智，

physical things, like the coffee cup itself,

实体事物，如咖啡杯本身，

exist in the world whether we're perceiving them or not --

存在于我们是否在感知它的世界里，

it’s the way in which these things appear in our conscious experience

事物就是以这种方式出现 在我们的意识体验中。

that is always a construction,

总是一种构建，

always a creative act of brain-based best guessing.

总是一种基于大脑的最佳预测行为。

And because we all have different brains,

因为我们每个人的大脑不同，

we will each inhabit our own distinctive, personalized inner universe.

我们每个人都会有自己的特征， 有一个自己个体化的内心世界，

Now I've digressed quite far from where we began,

现在，我们跑题跑得有点远了。

so let me end by returning to the self,

所以，让我在回到自我本身，

to the experience of being you,

你自我的体验，

or being me.

或者说我们自身的体验，

They key idea here is that the experience of being a self,

关键点是自我的体验，

being any self,

任何自我，

is also a controlled hallucination, but of a very special kind.

也是一种受控的幻觉， 但有其特殊性，

Instead of being about the external world,

不存在于外在世界。

experiences of selfhood are fundamentally about regulating and controlling the body.

自我体验根本上是 对自己身体的管理和控制，

And what’s important here is that the experiences of being a self

重点是，自我体验，

are composed of many different parts

包括很多部分，

that normally hang together in a unified way,

这些部分以统一化的形式共存，

but which can come apart in, for instance, psychological or neurological disorders,

但是，也会有分离的情况，比如： 在有心理或神经障碍的时候

There are experiences of being a continuous person over time,

我们有一些持续性的自我体验，

with a name and a set of memories

它们有特定的名字和记忆，

shaped by our social and cultural environments.

并由我们的社会和文化塑造。

There are experiences of free will,

我们有一些体现自由意志的自我体验，

of intending to do something,

在这样的体验中， 我们做有意识地去做，

or of being the cause of things that happen.

或者推动事情发生。

There are experiences of perceiving the world

我们也有感知世界的体验，

from a particular perspective, a first-person point of view.

从特点的角度，

以第一人称的方式 感知世界的自我体验。

And then, there are deeply embodied experiences,

然后，我还有深刻的自身体验，

for instance of identifying with an object in the world

例如：认识我们自己的身体

that is my body.

是存在于世间的一个物体。

These hands, they're my hands.

这手，是我的双手。

And then, of emotion and mood.

然后，还有情绪和心情的自我体验，

And at the deepest-lying, most basal levels,

及最深处的，在底层的，

experiences of simply being a living body,

作为一个生物体的自我体验，

of being alive.

活着的体验。

Now my contention is that all these aspects of being a self

现在，我的讨论点是 所有这些方面的自我体验，

are all perceptual predictions of various kinds.

都是各种各样的永恒预测。

And the most basic aspect of being any self

任何自我体验的最基础面是，

is that part of perception

关于那些身体内部调理， 让你维持生命

which serves to regulate the interior of the body to keep you alive.

的自我感知。

And when you pull on this thread, many things follow.

把这条线拉直后， 其他的就迎刃而解。

Everything that arises in consciousness is a perceptual prediction,

我们意识里出现的任何事物 都是一种永恒的预测。

and all of our conscious experiences,

我们所有的意识体验，

whether of the self or of the world,

不管是对于自身还是外部世界，

are all deeply rooted in our nature, as living machines.

都深植于我们活着的 自然机制里。

We experience the world around us and ourselves within it,

我们对周遭世界和自己的体验都在其中，

with, through and because of our living bodies.

存在，贯穿，并归因于 我们活着的身体。

So who are you, really?

所以，你到底是谁？

Think of yourself as being like the color red.

想象你自己就是颜色红色，

You exist, but you might not be what you think you are.

你的存在，可能并不是你想的那样，

Thank you.

谢谢！

David Biello: A stand-in for the audience. Anil Seth: David is clapping.

大卫·比埃洛（David Biello）: 代表观众鼓掌

阿尼尔·赛斯（Anil Seth）: 大卫在鼓掌

(Laughter)

(笑声）

AS: That makes me feel better. DB: It was great. Thank you for that.

阿尼尔·赛斯: 这让我感觉好多了。

大卫·比埃洛: 非常棒！谢谢！

I have to say that the thought of my brain floating around in a bony prison

我不得不说我的大脑 浮游于骨牢里的想法

is a disturbing one.

相当闹心。

But how do all those billions and trillions of neurons

但是，成千上万的神经元，

give rise to this experience of consciousness,

是怎么让我们产生意识体验的呢？

in your view?

你怎么看？

AS: First, I mean, consciousness is experience,

阿尼尔·赛斯：首先， 我的意思是，意识也是体验，

so I'd use the two terms synonymously there.

所以，我在解释的时候两个词通用，

It's the same thing.

是一回事，

And by the way,

然后，

the idea of your brain wobbling around in its bony vault of a skull

你的大脑游荡在头颅里的想法，

is presumably less disturbing than it doing something else

可能不会比它在干一些其他事情，

and doing something outside of the skull. (Laughter)

在头颅外头造事更闹心。

That would be the more worrying situation.

那更让人担心。

But the question, of course, this is the big question.

但是，这才是大问题。

You start off with a simple question, "How does it all happen?"

你问题很简单： 它是怎么发生的？

And this is why there is a long way to go here.

这也是为什么绕了一大圈才绕到这里。

And there are, I think, two ways to approach this mystery.

我想，要解开这个谜团，有两种方法。

So the fundamental question here is ...

所以，这里的根本问题是：

What is it about a physical mechanism,

这是怎样的一个生理机制，

in this case, a neurobiological mechanism,

在这个情形下，是一个神经生理机制，

86 billion neurons and trillions of connections,

八千六百万个神经元和无数神经连接，

that can generate any conscious experience?

足以产生任何意识体验。

Put that way, it seems extremely hard,

那样看来，解释起来极其困难，

because conscious experiences seem to be the kinds of things

因为意识体验是，

that cannot be explained in terms of mechanisms,

无法用机制术语来进行解释的，

however complicated those mechanisms might be.

那些机制是如此的复杂，

This is the intuition that David Chalmers famously called "the hard problem."

这就是大卫·查默斯（David Chalmers） 提出的著名的“意识的难题”。

But my approach, as hinted at in this talk,

但我的方法，如我本演讲中我也提示过，

is that we can characterize different properties of consciousness --

是：我们可以区分意识的不同特征，

what a perceptual experience is like,

感知意识体验是怎么样的？

what an experience of self is like,

自我意识的体验是怎样的？

what the difference between sleep and wakefulness is like.

睡眠意识和清醒意识有什么不同？

And in each of those cases, we can tell a story

在这些不同的情境下， 我们可以来探讨，

about how neural mechanisms explain those properties.

这些特征的神经机制。

In the part of the story we've touched on today,

今天我们探讨的内容涉及的是，

it's all about predictive processing,

预测的过程，

so the idea is that the brain really does encode within it

主旨是我们的大脑会进行编码，

a sort of predictive generative model of the causes of signals from the world,

是一种对来自外部世界的信号 进行预测的模式。

and it's the content of those predictions

这些预测构成了

that constitutes our perceptual experience.

我们的感知意识体验，

And as we sort of develop and test explanations like this,

我们有尝试发展和验证如这样的解说，

the intuition is that this hard problem

直观上这个难题

of how and why neurons, or whatever it is, in the brain,

这个关于神经元或是 大脑如何及为什么会，

can generate a conscious experience,

产生意识体验的问题，

won't be solved directly -- it will be dissolved.

找到不到直接的答案， 这个问题会被淡化，

It will gradually fade away and eventually vanish

会渐渐地淡化，消失在

in a puff of metaphysical smoke.

元物理研究的一缕青烟里。

DB: Katarina wants to talk about anesthesia,

DB：Katarina想要探讨麻醉术，

that experience of having your consciousness kind of turned off.

这种让你的意识彷佛被关闭的体验，

What do we know about this ability to switch a person off,

对这种在几秒之间 将一个人的意识

in a matter of seconds?

关闭的能力我们了解多少？

What is actually happening there, do you think?

对此你怎么看？

AS: Firstly, I think it's one of the best inventions of humanity, ever.

AS：首先，我觉得这是我们人类 最好的发明之一

The ability to turn people into objects and then back again into people --

这种将人物化， 然后又能变回人的能力，

I wouldn't want to live at a time in history without it.

我不会选择生活在没有这项技术的 任何历史时代。

Whenever we have this, like,

有时候我们会说，

"Wouldn't it be nice to live in Greek antiquity or something,

生活在希腊古典时期，

when people swum around, philosophizing, drinking wine?"

很自在地喝着红酒，思考哲学 不是很好吗？

Yes, but what about anesthesia?

好是好，但是哪来的麻醉术呢？

(Laughs)

（笑声）

That's my response.

我就会这么回答。

It does work, this is a fantastic thing.

它确实有作用，也是很神奇的一件事情。

How?

如何作用的呢？

Here's an enormous opportunity for consciousness science,

这给了意识领域的科学家 一个很好的机会。

because we know what anesthetics do at a very local level.

因为我们对麻醉作用的了解还比较局限，

We know how they act on different molecules and receptors in the brain.

我们知道麻醉作用在脑内不同的分子和接收部位。

And of course, we know what ultimately happens,

当然，我们也知道产生作用的结果

which is that people get knocked out.

是让人昏迷，

And by the way, it's not like going to sleep.

而且，不是像睡觉般昏迷。

Under general anesthesia, you're really not there.

全身麻醉的时候， 你真的是不省人事的。

It's an oblivion comparable with the oblivion before birth

这种遗忘的状态类似于生前，

or after death.

或死后的状态。

So the real question is, "What is happening?"

真正的问题是：“那么是怎么发生的呢？”

How is the local action of anesthetics affect global brain dynamics

这种局部的麻醉运用是怎么影响整个大脑的活动的呢？

so as to explain this disappearance of consciousness?

怎么解释这种意识的消失呢？

And to cut a long story very short, what seems to be happening

简单说，这就像

is that the different parts of the brain

大脑的不同部位

become functionally disconnected from each other,

在功能上彼此失联了，

and by that I mean, they speak to each other less.

也就是它们之间的沟通变少了，

The brain is still active,

但大脑还是处在活跃状态，

but communication between brain areas becomes disrupted in specific ways.

但是大脑部位之间的联络被中断了。

and there’s still a lot we need to learn

至于，这种联络中断，

about the precise ways in which this disconnection happens --

具体是怎么形成的，还有待进一步研究。

what are the signatures of the loss of consciousness?

失去意识的特征有哪些呢？

There are many different kinds of anesthetic,

麻醉有很多不同种类，

but whichever variety of anesthetic you take,

不管施用的是那种麻醉，

when it works, this is what you see.

等它生效了，你就会知道。

DB: I think some folks such as Jasmine and more anonymous folks

DB: 我觉得让Jasmine还有 一些匿名人士

are troubled by this idea that what I call red

困惑的是，我所称的红色，

might be a different color for you and for everyone else.

在你或其他人看来 可能会是一个不同的颜色，

Is there a way of knowing if we're all hallucinating reality

有没有办法知道 是否我们所以人都是

in a similar way or not?

以一种方式或不同的方式在幻想现实呢？

AS: Again, this is a lovely topic,

AS: 这真是个好问题。

and it really gets to the heart of how I've been thinking

直达了我一直在思考的，

about perception,

认知的问题。

because one of the aspects of perception that I think is easy to overlook

因为就认知意识的各个方面，有一点很容易被忽视，

is that the contents of perception seem real, right?

那就是认知的内容看上去似乎是真实的，对吧？

The redness of this coffee cup,

这个咖啡杯的红色特征，

it seems to be a mind-independent,

似乎是脱离我们心智的存在，

really existing property of the external world.

是外部世界真实存在的特征，

Now, certain aspects of this coffee cup are mind-independent.

这个咖啡某些特征的确是客观存在的，

Its solidity is mind-independent.

它的固体特征是客观存在的。

If I throw it at you, David, across the Atlantic,

David，如果我把这个杯子跨过太平洋向你扔过去，

and you don't see it coming, it will hit you in the head, it will hurt.

你没看到，它会击中你的头部，会痛。

That doesn't depend on you seeing it,

这个不取决于你有没有看到它。

but the redness does depend on a mind.

但是，其红色特征 却是有赖于我们的心智的。

And to the extent that things depend on a mind,

所有有赖于我们心智的事物，

they're going to be different for each of us.

对我们来说都会有差异的。

Now, they may not be that different.

可能，这种差异不会那么明显。

In philosophy, there's this argument of the inverted spectrum,

在心理学界，有一个关于倒谱的争论。

so if I see red, is that the same as you seeing green or blue, let's say?

所以，我看到的红色，是不是和你看到的绿色或蓝色是一样的呢？

And we might never know.

这个我们永远没法知道。

I don't have that much truck with that particular thought experiment.

这类特定想法的实验我涉及不多。

Like many thought experiments, it pushes things a little bit too far.

就像很多想法实验， 把事情扯得有点太远。

I think the reality is that we see things like colors,

我想实际上我们看颜色时，

maybe we see them similar, but not exactly the same,

我们看到的结果是类似的， 但不是完全一模一样

and we probably overestimate the degree of similarity

可能，我们高估了这种

between our perceptual worlds,

我们认知世界里的相似度。

because they're all filtered through language.

因为它们还会经过语言的过滤，

I mean, I just used the word “red,” and there are many shades of red;

我的意思是，我仅用了“红色”， 红色也有很多不同色调。

painters would say, "What red?"

油画家可能会问：“哪种红色？”

I remember when I was decorating my house,

我还记得，我装修房子的时候，

it's like, "I want to paint the walls white."

说：“我想把墙刷成白色。”

How many shades of white are there?

白色有多少种色调？

This is too many.

太多了。

And they have weird names, which doesn't help.

即使很多奇奇怪怪的名字， 也起不了很多作用

We will overestimate the similarity of our universe.

我们会高估我们世界的相似度。

And I think it's a really interesting question,

这真是个有趣的问题。

how much they do indeed diverge.

这其中的差异可以大到哪种程度呢，

You will probably remember this famous dress,

你可能还记得那条著名的裙子。

this photo of a dress half the world saw as blue and black,

那条裙子的照片， 世界上一半的人看到的是蓝色和黑色，

and the other half saw as white and gold.

另外一半的人看到的是白色和金色。

AS: You're a white and gold person? DB: Yeah, yeah.

AS: 你属于看到白色和金色类型的人？ DB: 是，是。

AS: I'm a blue and black person.

AS: 我看到的是蓝色和黑色。

I was right, the real dress is actually blue and black.

我是对的，裙子真的是蓝色和黑色的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

AS: Never mind ...

AS: 行吧……

DB: We could argue about that.

DB: 我们可以争论一番。

AS: We couldn't. It really is blue and black.

AS: 不需要， 它真的是蓝色和黑色的。

I talked to the dress designer. The actual one is blue and black.

我问过裙子的设计师， 真实的颜色就是蓝色和黑色。

There's no argument there.

没有什么值得争论的。

But the thing that made that so weird

但是，诡异的是，

is that it's not that we vaguely see it as one color or the other,

我们各自看到的颜色并不模糊，

we really see that blueness and blackness or whiteness and goldness

我们真真切切地看到的是蓝色和黑色 或白色和金色。

as really existing in the world.

就像是世界的真实存在，

And that was an interesting lever

这真是有趣。

into a recognition of how different our perceptual universes might be.

以此可想我们各自的认知世界 可能存在多大差异。

And in fact, a study we're doing at Sussex over the next year or two,

事实上，未来一年或两年， 我们会在萨塞克斯做一个研究，

we're trying to characterize the amount of perceptual diversity

我们将尝试获知认知的差异度。

that is just there to be discovered.

这些都有待进一步去发现，

We're usually only aware of it at the extremes,

我们通常只有在其表现比较极端的 时候能发现，

people call things like neurodiversity,

人们的体验非常不同的时候，

where people have experiences that are so different,

会将其称为神经多样性。

they manifest in different behaviors.

会通过不同的行为表现出来，

But I think there's this, sort of, big dark matter

但是，对于这类深层次的问题，

of individual diversity in perception that we know very little about,

即个人认知差异的问题， 我们还知之甚少。

but it's there.

但是，是存在的。

DB: I'm glad we could put to rest a major internet debate

DB: 我很开心，我们能在此 平息一场盛大的网络争辩。

and come down firmly on the blue and black side of things.

真正聚焦到事情的本质上。

Daniella wants to know,

Daniella想知道，

"Could you explain how memory is involved in this perception of a self?"

“能否请你解释记忆在自我意识中 扮演着什么样的角色？”

AS: Just as there are many different aspects of selfhood,

AS：就像我们的自我有很多不同方面。

there are many different kinds of memory, too.

记忆也是如此，

I think colloquially, in everyday language,

口头上，在日常用语中，

when we talk about memory,

我们说到记忆，

we often talk about autobiographical memory or episodic memory,

我们通常说的都是 自传式记忆或情节记忆。

like "What did I have for breakfast?"

如：“我早餐吃的是什么？”

"When did I last go for a walk?"

“我上一次散步是什么时候？”

These kinds of things.

这类事情。

"When did I last have the pleasure of talking to David?"

“我上一次跟愉快地和David交谈是什么时候？”

These are the memories of things that pertain to me

这些都是和我，

as a continuous individual over time.

作为一个持续个体有关的记忆。

That's one way in which memory plays into self,

这是记忆在自我中扮演的一个角色。

and that part of memory can go away, and self remains --

离开这类记忆，自我还会存在。

back to the earlier point.

回到之前的讨论的点，

There's a famous case I talk about in the book,

在书中我谈到了一个非常著名的案例，

of a guy called Clive Wearing,

案例主人公是个叫Clive Wearing的男子。

who had a brain disease, an encephalopathy,

他患有脑病，

which basically obliterated his ability to lay down new autobiographical memories.

这个病基本上让他失去了 产生新的自传性记忆的能力，

He lost his hippocampus,

他失去了他大脑的海马体，

which is a brain region very important for this function.

海马体在这项脑功能中 扮演非常重要的角色，

His wife described it as him living in a permanent present tense,

他的妻子描述，他就像永远生活在，

of between seven to 30 seconds.

时间为7秒到30秒的一般现在时。

And then, everything was new.

过了这个时段，一切又都是新的。

It's very, very difficult to put yourself in the shoes of somebody like that.

你很难设身处地地想象这样的处境。

But other aspects of his self remained.

但是，他自我的其他方面完好无损。

But then, there are all sorts of other aspects of memory

但是，还有很多类型的记忆，

that probably also play into what it is to be you or to be me.

这些记忆对你之所以是你， 我之所以是我也起着很大作用

We have semantic memory.

我们有语义记忆，

We just know things,

让我们知道事情，

like we know what the capital of France is, who the president is,

比如，我们知道法国的首都是哪里 谁是总统，

I hope so, I don't know.

我希望如此，我不知道。

Sometimes, that's a good thing. Sometimes, that's not a good thing.

有时候，我们知道的是件好事， 有时候，我们知道的是件不好的事。

And all of these things that get encoded in memory

这些都会在在我们的记忆中形成编码。

shape our self too.

也会塑造我们的自我。

And then finally, there's perceptual memory.

最后，我们还有感知记忆。

It's not that experience is like a video recording that we can replay,

这个体验不是像一个录下来的，可以重播的视频，

but everything we experience changes the way we perceive things in the future,

但是，我们所经历的每一件事都会 改变我们未来感知事物的方式

and the way we perceive things is also, in my view,

我认为，我们感知事物的方式，

part of what it is to be a self.

也构成了自我的一部分。

Actually, I just want to say,

事实上，我只想说，

one of the really interesting questions here,

这里提到的一个真正有趣的问题是，

and one of the things we're working on --

也是我们现在正努力的做。

Imagine a typical day.

想象典型的一天，

You go through your typical day,

你所经历的典型的一天，

you're experiencing a continuous stream of inputs.

你持续性地经历很多事情，

Now you blink, of course, and so on, but more or less,

当然，你会眨个眼，然后继续，

there's this continuous stream of inputs.

你的经历是持续的，

Yet when we remember a day,

但是，当我们记忆一天的时候，

it's usually in chunks, these autobiographical chunks:

它却是一段一段的， 是一些自传式的片段：

"I did this, I did that, I did the other, this happened."

“我做了这件事，我做了那件事， 还做了其他的，这个发生了……”

So a really important question

这里就有个重要的问题：

is, "How does this chunking process happen?"

这种片段是怎么形成的？

"How does the brain extract meaningful episodes

我们的大脑是怎么从 相对持续性的数据流里

from a relatively continuous flow of data?"

提炼出这些 有意义的片段的？

And it's kind of disturbing,

想到每天经历那么多，能记住的那么少， 真让人有难过。

how little of any given day we remember.

So it's a very selective process,

所以，这是个选择性极强的过程。

and that's something that I think is going to be useful

我认为对这个方面的研究，将意义非凡。

not only for basic neuroscience,

不仅对脑科学，

but, for instance, in helping people with memory loss and impairments,

也将对其他方面， 如失去记忆或记忆受损的人起到帮助

because you could, for instance, have a camera,

因为，你可以，比如装个摄像头，

and then, you could predict what aspects of their day would constitute a memory,

然后，预测他们一天中哪些部分 将形成记忆，

and that can be very, very useful for them and for their carers.

这对他们本身和他们的照料者 都很有帮助。

DB: The brain clearly has a good editor.

DB:我们都大脑里住着个好剪辑师。

You call us, people, "feeling machines" in your book.

在你的书籍里，你将人类称为“感受机器”。

Care to expand on that?

能否就此稍微展开讨论？

AS: Yeah, that's right.

AS：啊，是。

Well, we're not cognitive computers, we are feeling machines.

嗯，我们不是认知计算机， 我们是感受机器。

And I think this is true at the level of making decisions,

我认为，在做决策的层面也是如此。

but for me, it's really at the heart of how to understand life,

但对我来说，核心是如何理解生活，

mind and consciousness.

我们的心智和意识，

And this, really, is the idea that --

这个，真的是

In consciousness science, we tended to think things like vision --

在我们意识科学领域， 我们将其看成是视觉化的，

Vision as being the royal road to understanding consciousness.

充当一条通往理解意识的忠实之路。

Vision is easy to study, and we're very visual creatures.

视觉好研究，我们是视觉性的生物。

But fundamentally,

但是，从根本上说，

brains evolved and develop and operate from moment to moment

大脑一刻不停地进化，发展，运作，

to keep the body alive,

以让我们的身体维持生命。

always in light of this deep physiological imperative

总是出于这种深刻的生理使命，

to help the organism persist in remaining an organism,

维持有机体的

in remaining alive.

正常运作和生存。

And that fundamental role of brains,

在我看来，有了大脑扮演的这项根本角色，

that's what, in my view, gave rise to any kind of perception.

才有了其他任何感知体验。

In order to regulate something,

为了监管好事物，

you need to be able to predict what happens to it.

你需要能预测会发生什么，

It's this whole apparatus of prediction and prediction error

这一整套的预测和预测误差机制，

that undergirds all of our perceptual experiences,

支撑着我们所有的认知体验。

including the self,

包括我们自我的体验，

has its origin in this role

也是源于此。

that's tightly coupled to the physiology of the body.

它跟身体的生理机制紧密耦合，

And that's why, I think, we're feeling machines,

这是为什么，我认为我们是感受机器，

we're not just computers

我们不是

that happen to be implemented on meat machines.

一台植入肉体机器的计算机。

DB: Thank you, Anil, for chatting with us today.

DB: 谢谢Anil, 谢谢你的分享。

AS: Really enjoyed it.

AS: 非常乐意。

AS: Thanks a lot, David. DB: Thank you.

AS: 也很感谢，David. DB: 谢谢！