The Global Opportunity to Accelerate Africa's Sustainable Future | Vanessa Nakate | TED

翻译人员: jing lin 校对人员: suya f.

Mary Robinson: Vanessa, thank you so much

非常感谢

for inviting us to your home here in Kampala, in Uganda,

邀请我们来你在乌干达的家，

for this TEDWomen conversation,

进行这次“TED女性”的对话。

I really appreciate that.

我深感荣幸。

It's so much nicer to be in somebody's home

可以来到别人的家里进行对话交流，

having a conversation.

这真是非常美好。

So let's start with what prompted you

那我们就从这个问题开始吧：

是什么推动你或者 是什么让你成为了一个气候活动家？

or what brought you to become a climate activist,

to become aware of the climate issue from the beginning?

一开始你是怎么意识到气候问题的？

You must have been very young, but you're still very young.

那时候你还非常年轻， 你现在依然很年轻。

Vanessa Nakate: My journey started in 2018.

我的历程开始于2018年。

That is when I started reading about the challenges

那时候我刚开始阅读

关于我的祖国乌干达的人民面临的挑战。

that the people in my country, Uganda, were facing.

And at that point,

在那个时候，

I found out that climate change was one of those challenges.

我发现气候变化是这些挑战其中之一。

And I remember in school

我记得在学校的地理课上

studying about climate change in geography class.

学习过关于气候变化的内容。

It never made me realize that it was actually an emergency

那时我没有意识到 它已经是一件十分紧急的事情

or something that was happening at that time.

或者一件当下正在发生的事。

So I was really surprised to find that it is the greatest threat

所以当我发现这么多人的生命

facing the lives of so many people.

面临的这个最巨大的威胁时， 我真的震惊了。

MR: And what was it in 2018 that kind of prompted you?

在2018年是什么推动了你？

VN: I remember speaking to one of my uncles, Charles,

我记得是和我舅舅查尔斯聊天，

and asking him if he has seen any changes

我问他有没有感觉到什么变化，

from when he was much younger and right now.

从他小时候到现在。

And he explained to me that 20 years ago in a specific place,

他向我描绘了20年前一个特定的地方，

he mentioned in Mitanya

他说的是米坦尼亚，

that they would expect rains at a specific time.

他们会在某个特定时间等待降雨的来临，

But then he said now, 20 years later,

然后他说，20年之后

that the farmers cannot tell when the rains would come.

那里的农民已经无法判断 什么时候会降雨了。

So he actually said there's been a change, but no one is talking about it.

他说这就是一个真实的变化， 但是没人谈论它。

So that really triggered me to start doing something about it.

这引发了我开始想为此去做些什么。

I didn't know what exactly I had to do,

我不知道我应该做什么，

but after seeing Greta Thunberg from Sweden strike, I was really inspired.

但当我看到在瑞典罢课的 格蕾塔·桑伯格之后，我受到了启发。

MR: You saw those photographs of her in front of the Swedish parliament.

你看到了那些她在瑞典议会前的照片。

VN: Yes. In 2018, towards the end of the year.

是的，在2018年，接近年底的时候。

So I was really inspired by her actions,

我真的被她的行动所鼓舞，

and I decided that I would start striking as well.

于是我决定也开始罢课。

However, I was quite scared to go to the street.

但是我非常害怕站上大街。

MR: Why were you scared?

你为什么害怕？

VN: I think I've always been nervous to face people, so many people.

我想我在面对人群 的时候总是很紧张，那么多人呢！

MR: Are you a bit shy?

你有一点害羞？

VN: A bit, yes.

是的，有一点。

Yeah, but I tend to manage it, I should say.

但我可以这么说，我正在努力地克服它。

MR: You were in Davos with Greta Thunberg

在达沃斯，你和格蕾塔·桑伯格

and some other well-known climate activists.

还有其他一些著名的气候活动家在一起。

And there was a photo taken, I think, of five of you,

这里有一张你们五个人的照片。

and the other four were white women, white young women,

其他四个都是白人女性，白人年轻女性。

you were all very young.

你们真的非常年轻。

And you were cut out of the photograph.

但是你从照片中被裁掉了。

VN: Yes.

是的。

MR: You could have just, you know, accepted that, but you didn’t.

你原本也可以接受它，但你没有。

Tell us about why, how you felt

告诉我们原因，你的感受是什么，

and then why you decided to react the way you did

以及为什么你决定要用你的方式反击，

and what you did.

和你所做的事。

VN: When I first saw the photograph, I was, of course, really frustrated

当我看到照片第一眼时候， 我自然是非常有挫败感的。

because I remember one of the messages

因为在那个新闻发布会

I really emphasized at that press conference

我特别记得其中的一个内容，

was the need to listen to the voices,

就是需要听到世界各地

you know, of different activists across the world.

的不同的气候活动家的声音。

MR: And suddenly, you were cut out.

然后很突然的，你就从合影中被裁掉了。

VN: Exactly.

是的。

So it was quite disappointing to see and also frustrating for me.

所以，这令我感到失望还有沮丧。

But also at that point,

但也是在那个时刻，

I just wanted to ask why I have been removed from the picture.

我想去质问为什么我从照片中被裁掉，

And that's exactly what I did.

我也那么做了。

I asked why.

我去问“为什么”。

And that really gave me the opportunity to talk about, you know,

那也给了我一个机会，

some of the intersections of climate change, for example,

去气候变化的一些交叉领域

with racial justice.

谈论例如种族正义。

MR: Talk about this big long word that we use, intersectionality.

那我们聊聊这个很长的单词：交叉性。

(Laughter)

（笑）

VN: Yeah, so when when we talk about intersectionality,

当我们谈论交叉性的时候，

it's just something that explains

它指的是

that climate change is not just on its own.

气候变化不仅仅关于它本身。

Climate change is more than weather,

气候变化不仅仅是关于天气，

it's more than statistics,

也不仅仅是统计数字，

it's about the people.

它更是关乎人的。

And when we bring in the conversation of intersectionality,

当我们引入具有交叉性质的对话，

it makes us talk about, you know, things like poverty eradication.

它让我们可以讨论 例如“消除贫困”这样的事，

It makes us talk about racial justice in our fight for climate justice.

它也让我们在抗击气候变化 的时候谈论种族正义。

MR: Yes.

是的。

And you know, you’ve been the face on Time magazine.

你知道，你已经成为 泰晤士报的封面人物。

You have reached very high visibility as a voice for Africa.

作为非洲的代言人， 你已经有了很高的知名度。

How has that been?

这是如何发生的？

How has the journey for you been?

这个旅程是如何发生的？

How have you felt internally?

你内心的感受是什么样的？

How have you managed to cope with, you know, being well-known,

你如何应对你的名气？

presumably you get lots of social media messages, lots of everything,

想必你在社交媒体上 收到了很多信息，各种各样的，

and maybe some of them are negative.

可能其中有一些是负面的。

How do you cope?

你是如何处理的？

VN: Well, I want to first of all say that, you know,

首先我想说的是，

I'm not the voice of Africa,

我并不能代表非洲的声音。

yeah, there are so many --

因为，实际上 有那么多人在发声......

MR: You are one of the voices.

你是这些声音之一。

VN: Yes.

是的。

And the publicity or the fame, if I should say that,

知名度或者说名气， 如果我可以这么说的话，

comes with that.

随之而来。

It can be both positive and also negative.

它既有正面的，也有负面的。

And negative, it can be, you know,

负面的评价有可能是：

the people who will say that what you're doing is not real

人们会说你做的事没那么落地，

or you're exaggerating the climate crisis

或者你夸大了气候危机，

or people who tell you you're, you know,

又或者有人告诉你，

a young woman, you should get married instead of standing on the street.

作为一个年轻女性， 你应该去结婚而不是站上街头。

So it comes with all that.

它伴随着这一切。

But one thing I realized that, you know,

但我意识到一件事，

the one percent is the negativity,

只有百分之一是负面的，

but the 99 percent,

其余百分之九十九

it's the support from different parts of the world.

都是来自世界不同地方的支持。

So amidst all that, I look at the support from the different people.

在所有这些中， 我看到不同的人对我的支持。

MR: And you take steps to make sure

而且你一步一步地确认

that your own self-care is, you know, going well,

你的自我照顾进行的很不错，

that you've got a balance in what you're doing.

你在你所做的事中找到了一个平衡点。

VN: Yes.

是的。

MR: What do you do?

你是怎么做的？

VN: Apart from the activism,

除了我的气候行动，

I do many other things in my own personal life.

在我的个人生活中， 我还做很多其他事情。

One, like you've talked about, self-care, I really love to rest.

其一就是正如你说的“照顾自己”， 我真的很喜欢休息。

And many times for me, rest is actual sleep.

很多时候对我来说，休息就是睡觉。

(Laughter)

（笑）

Yes, so I really love to get good sleep.

所以我真的很享受有一个好睡眠。

And literally everyone here at home knows that.

事实上，家里的每个人都知道这点。

And also, I love getting involved in church activities.

我也喜欢参与教堂的事务。

Yes.

就这样的。

MR: I know you've talked about

你说过

capitalism as being part of a problem in degrading land

资本主义是土地退化、

and extracting and degrading, etc.

开采和退化等问题的一部分。

What kind of structures would you like to see in a broad sense?

广义上来说，你希望看到怎样的结构？

What kind of world would you like to see?

你期待看到什么样的世界？

VN: Yes, I would like to see a kind of world that respects people,

我希望看到的世界是尊重人的，

but also respects the planet as well.

同时也尊重地球。

And it's important to note

重要的是，我们要注意到，

that we are in a system that has created the climate crisis

是我们所处的系统导致了气候危机

and many other challenges that people are facing.

以及人们需要面对的其他许多挑战。

And when we demand for system change,

当我们要求系统改变，

we mean that the system actually has to change.

我们的意思是， 这个系统真的需要改变。

We cannot solve, you know,

你知道的，我们无法

the problems that are happening right now

在一个产生这些问题的系统中

with the very system that created them.

来解决现在发生的这些问题。

So we need something new,

因此我们需要一些新的方法，

something that will ensure that people are protected

来确保人类受到保护，

and the planet is protected as well.

我们的星球也受到保护。

When it comes to consumption,

在消费方面，

I think it's a place of governments

我认为这是政府可以帮助

helping to make cities more sustainable for people.

使城市成为对人们更具可持续性的地方。

Because it could be transportation.

它可以是交通方面。

For example, when you're in a country within Europe,

例如，当你身处欧洲的国家，

you can very easily use the train to get to so many places

你可以很容易地乘坐火车去很多地方，

to even go through, I mean, get to another country,

甚至直接到另一个国家，

which may be difficult in some places or in some countries.

这在某些地方或国家都是很困难的事。

So I think it's really a place of making our cities

因此我认为， 这真的是一个可以改进的地方，

and our countries more sustainable

让我们的城市和国家更具可持续性，

so that people can live more sustainably

而人们也可以生活的更可持续。

when it comes to, you know, food, when it comes to transportation,

包括食物、交通、

when it comes to clothing itself.

服饰方面，

You know, the issue of population,

而人口问题

it is not the problem in our fight for the climate crisis.

不是我们应对气候危机的问题。

MR: I agree.

我赞同。

VN: Because it's important to know that, you know,

认识到下面这点很重要：

while Africa has a huge population,

虽然非洲拥有众多人口，

it is responsible for less than four percent of the global emissions.

但它的二氧化碳排放量占比 不到全球四分之一。

And a family of maybe ten in Uganda

在乌干达，可能一个十口人的家庭

will emit way less than a family of four

二氧化碳排放量还少于

in a country within Europe.

欧洲一个四口人的家庭。

So it's really a place of understanding who has caused this crisis

因此真的很需要弄明白是谁导致了危机，

and what needs to be done to make people live more sustainably.

以及需要做什么 才能让人们生活的更可持续。

MR: And you've turned the focus, which I want to do,

你已经把焦点转向了

on your continent, Africa.

你们的大陆，非洲。

There are so many crises at the moment.

目前有太多的危机。

There is, you know, a food crisis, a fuel crisis,

这有食品危机、化石燃料危机、

there was the COVID crisis

那有新冠病毒危机，

and a lack of equitable access to vaccines.

以及缺乏公平获得疫苗的机会。

And behind that, and there all the time,

在那背后，一直存在的，

and much earlier, has been the climate crisis.

而且早的更多的，就有气候危机了。

So how do you want the conference that we're going to see,

那么， 你希望我们将要看到的会议是如何的？

the African Conference in Egypt in November, COP27,

11月在非洲埃及召开的COP27会议

how do you see the priorities?

你如何看待它的优先级？

What do you want to see happen?

你希望看到发生什么？

VN: When it comes to loss and damage,

论及损失与破坏，

the climate crisis is pushing so many communities beyond adaptation.

气候危机正在把很多社区 推向它的适应能力之外的境地。

When, you know, a family loses a family member,

当一个家庭失去一个家庭成员，

you can adapt to a loss of life.

你能够去适应生活中的失去。

You know, you've talked about the food crisis,

在我们已经聊过的食品危机方面，

for example, in the Horn of Africa

例如，在非洲的合恩岛，

that has left more than 20 million people with no access to food.

有超过两千万人死于缺乏食物。

You can’t adapt to starvation.

饥饿，是你无法去适应的。

You know, when islands are being washed away

当岛屿被冲走，

and being submerged by flooding or by the rising sea levels,

或者被洪水和上升的海平面淹没，

it’s evident that you can’t adapt to lost islands or to sinking coastlines.

很明显，你是无法去适应 消失的岛屿和下沉的海岸线的。

So this is where loss and damage comes in.

这就是损失和破坏存在之处。

MR: One of the things about development is, you know,

发展带来的一个问题是：

industrialized countries built their economies on fossil fuel.

工业化国家的经济 是建立在化石燃料的基础上。

And African countries have wanted to go as green as possible,

非洲国家正在努力发展绿色经济，

but they haven't got the investment and support.

但还没有得到投资和支持。

And some countries want to go more into the gas they found

而且一些国家想更多地 使用他们已发现的天然气资源

or the coal they've found,

或者已发现的石油资源。

in particular, gas more recently.

特别是最近，天然气被使用得更多，

And pipelines.

还有输气输油管道。

You've written about this.

你曾经写下这些。

You feel very strongly about this as a young African climate activist.

作为一个非洲的气候活动家， 你非常强烈的感觉到这一切。

Tell us more.

告诉我们更多的一些细节。

VN: Yes, there is a very big challenge

是的，这是一个对于很多非洲国家来说

that so many African nations are facing right now.

面对的非常巨大的挑战。

There is a pressure to transition to renewable energy.

我们面临着向可再生能源转型的压力。

There's a pressure to lift people out of energy poverty.

面临着让人们脱离能源匮乏的压力。

But then there is no climate finance to do that.

但是并没有气候方面的资金来做这些。

So what is happening is that fossil fuel companies

而正在发生的事情是，

are coming with all these deals for the gas or for the oil

化石燃料公司还在不同国家

in the different countries.

为天然气或石油提供所有这些交易。

MR: Because they're finding it harder in other regions.

在一些地区，这更加艰难。

确实是这样。

VN: Exactly.

即使这些国家非常需要的气候资金

But then if the climate finance that is very much needed

by these nations is delayed,

被延误了，

they are being pressured to lift their communities

他们仍然面对要让他们的国家

out of energy poverty.

脱离能源匮乏的压力。

So, you know, that's what makes the climate crisis more than weather.

所以这就是气候危机 不仅仅是天气的原因所在。

So now there is an issue of energy poverty.

现在就有个能源匮乏的问题。

And we know that millions of people across Africa

我们都知道非洲有数以百万的人

have no access to electricity.

还没用上电。

So that's why the demands of climate finance are very clear.

这就是为什么 对气候资金的需求是非常明确的。

We need the money to help communities, those that are on the front lines,

我们需要资金去帮助那些最需要的社区，

to help people, to lift people out of energy poverty.

去帮助人们脱离能源匮乏。

But in a more cleaner way, while transitioning to renewable energy.

但是要用一个更清洁的方式， 向可再生能源转型的方式。

MR: Would you make any exception for, you know,

你是否期待

the possibility of clean cooking gas as a temporary, just transition

清洁厨房天然气作为 一个临时措施的可能性，

to help, as one of the solutions,

作为解决方案之一，

there are other solutions to clean cooking

还有其他的解决方案

or getting, you know, electricity into homes.

就是让电力进入家庭。

I'm just wondering, I mean,

我想知道

are you of the view that there's no room at all,

在你的观点里， 是不是毫无这样的空间。

because many people feel

因为很多人认为

the developing countries should have some leeway.

发展中国家应该有一些折衷的余地。

Because of the very reason you gave,

根据你给出的分析，

Africa is such a low emitter internationally

非洲在国际上是一个如此低的排放国

and yet has real development needs.

同时仍然有非常实际的发展需求。

I'm not talking about new infrastructure.

我说的不是新能源基础设施，

I'm talking about getting to people who need clean cooking

是在家中需要电力或者

or who need electricity in their home.

清洁厨房能源的那些人。

VN: Well, I think that when it comes to, you know,

说到让人们获得

clean cooking and getting electricity to people,

清洁的厨房能源和电力，

still we have to take the renewable way.

我认为仍然要采取可再生能源的方式。

Unfortunately, gas is unsustainable,

不幸的是，天然气是不可持续能源，

and it can be very harmful to so many people.

而且它对很多人来说是有害的。

I know that when climate finance is made available,

我知道当气候资金可以支持的时候

a lot of transformation can be made.

很多转变就可以实现。

I run a project that I started in 2019,

我在2019年开始主导一个项目，

and it involves the installation of solar panels

它包括在乌干达的学校

and eco-friendly cook stoves in schools in Uganda.

安装太阳能板和环境友好的炉灶。

I don't have, you know, specific climate finance

我并没有特别的气候资金，

that is coming in for that project,

来运行这个项目，

but it's been different people that are supporting,

是不同的人们 通过 “GoFundMe”平台

you know, online through our GoFundMe.

给予的支持让它得以运行。

And we've done installations in 31 schools now.

我们已经在31所 学校安装了这样的设施，

They have access to electricity through solar.

老师和学生可以通过太阳能使用上电了。

You know, they have access to clean cooking

你看，他们也通过环境友好型炉灶

through eco-friendly cook stoves.

获得了清洁的烹煮方式。

So I think the solutions are available.

所以我认为解决方案是有的。

We just need political will and money to be available.

我们只是需要政治意愿和资金来实现它。

MR: So you would even say, you know,

所以你大概要说，

that you wouldn't even have gas as a temporary, just transition solution

你不把天然气作为一个 临时和过渡性的解决方案，

to help women, for example, in particular,

特别是帮助妇女

to get more choices of access to clean cooking?

在获得清洁的烹饪方式上拥有更多选择。

VN: We cannot bring gas.

我们不能用天然气。

I believe there are more sustainable ways to help women.

我相信有更多可持续的方式 来帮助妇女们。

MR: So you you are very firm.

所以你很坚定。

VN: Yes.

是的。

MR: I'd love you to talk more

我想你能不能再谈谈

about the Africa that could be there

非洲能不能达到目标，

if we move more quickly.

如果我们行动的更快的话。

What would it mean?

这是什么意思呢？

How do you see, for example, in wetlands,

比如说，你是如何看待湿地的？

how do you see it in terms of what would change in cities?

在城市，可以有哪些改变？

What would change, I mean, yes, there would be electricity in households,

什么样的转变可以让家庭获得电力？

but how else could there be significant difference

其他方面可以有什么显著的变化，

in jobs as well as in better livelihoods?

例如在就业和更好的生存方式方面。

VN: Yeah, I'll start by sharing something I told a friend of mine

我想从一个朋友分享给我的故事 开始说起，

while I was in Europe,

那时候我在欧洲，

and we were going to take the train from one country to another.

我们正准备乘坐火车 从一个国家到另一个国家。

And I told him that if I had lots of money right now,

我跟他说，如果那时候我的钱丢了，

I would take this public transportation to my country, Uganda, as well.

我要是可以乘公共交通 到达我的祖国乌干达就好了。

So I think those are some of the things

我认为这就是可以看到的改变之一，

that we could see happen if things start moving.

如果行动开始进行的话。

To see that public transportation is made more accessible,

看到公共交通更加便利、

is made more affordable

更加支付得起、

and also more sustainable for people.

对人们也更具可持续性。

Because when public transportation is made, you know,

因为当公共交通

sustainable and affordable for people,

对人们更具可持续性、 更有能力支付，

it moves things very fast

它会让很多事情改变得更快，

because you can easily move from one place to another,

因为你可以很容易的 从一个地方到达另一个地方，

but in the most sustainable way possible.

但需要尽可能用最具可持续性的方式。

So I think that when things start moving, actual money,

所以事情要启动，就是资金的问题，

because here what we are talking about is political will

因为我们谈的是政治意愿

and making climate finance available.

和获得气候资金。

This is what will enable African nations to build more sustainable cities.

这些可以让非洲国家 建设更可持续的城市。

MR: Yeah, you mentioned the projects that you are working on

你提到你推动的一个项目，

in rural schools

是帮助农村的学校

to have solar panels and a better cook stove system.

建设太阳能板和更好的炉灶系统。

What other projects that you know of or that you've seen

你还听说过或者见过、听过

or that you've heard of particularly excite you?

哪些让你觉得特别激动的项目？

VN: So this project is really to educate young people about trees

有个项目是教孩子关于树木的知识，

and also to grow these trees with them.

而且和他们一起种植这些树。

So what I've seen with her project is that she teaches, you know,

我看到她的项目是在学校里教学生们

the students in schools to not only plant but to also grow the trees.

不仅是种下而且一直种植这些树。

MR: To nurture them.

养育它们。

VN: Exactly, nurture them.

对的，养育它们。

So I think that is something that I find very exciting.

这是很让我激动的事情。

And also here in Uganda, I've seen, you know,

而且，也是在这里，乌干达，

different activists during different tree-planting projects,

来自不同的植树项目的不同的活动家

especially fruit trees,

特别是用水果树，

to help the communities where they're taking these trees

来帮助社区种树。

to not only have, you know, trees for environmental reasons,

不仅仅是出于环境因素，

but also for food because they are fruit trees.

同时也是为了获得食物， 因为是水果树嘛。

MR: And sometimes for health as well.

有的时候也是为了健康。

VN: Exactly, yes.

是这样的。

So those are some of the things that I have seen here

这就是我见到的一些

that are very inspiring.

让我深受鼓舞的事情。

I remember being in a conversation at COP26,

我记得在COP26会议上有次谈话，

and it was with some Indigenous leaders.

有很多当地的活动家参与。

And one of the leaders said that usually before they make decisions,

其中有一个说，在他们做决策之前，

they always sit in a community and ask themselves,

他们总是会坐在一个社区里， 然后问自己：

will this decision be good for the children?

这个决定对孩子们来说是有益的吗？

And if they say no,

如果答案是否定的，

there is a possibility that it could harm the children in this way,

有可能这个做法 会在某种方式上伤害到孩子。

then that immediately would disqualify that decision.

他们就立即撤销这个决定。

So I do agree that there is a place of choosing the decisions,

所以我也赞同需要有 能够对决策作出选择的地方，

like, making decisions that will ensure that children are protected

可以确保做出 保护我们的孩子的决定，

or the planet is protected.

以及保护我们的星球的决定。

And also, just to add something, in scripture I've read

再加上一些我在经文中读到的，

that says, you know, I've given you a choice of life and death,

它说：“ 我给了你一个选择生和死的机会，

so you choose between life and death.

所以你可以决定生还是死。”

So when I bring it to the climate crisis,

当我把它放到气候危机的情境里，

we have a choice.

我们也只有一个选择。

A choice to either walk into a world that is beneficial for all of us

要么选择进入一个所有人都受益的世界，

or a choice that will take us into the world

要么选择一个

that may harm some people earlier,

先危害到一些人

but in the end it would impact everyone.

最后所有人都受到影响的世界。

So I do agree that we must make a choice.

所以我同意我们必须做一个选择。

MR: But I like that wisdom

我欣赏这个智慧，

that you shouldn't take decisions

就是你不能做

that may impact wrongly on future generations.

危害下一代的决定。

This gets back to oil and gas in Africa.

这又说回在非洲的石油和天然气问题，

You know, it sounds, you know, short term,

它听起来似乎是短期的事，

but it's not actually short term

但它实际上不可能是短期的事，

because putting in that infrastructure will take some years.

因为基础设施的建设投入就需要好几年。

And by that time, and then we know it's actually adding to the problem.

到那时，这实际上让问题更加严重。

Yeah, so it's a kind of very,

因此这的确是一个非常、非常重要的时刻

very good point to think about the future impacts of all actions

去思考所有行为对未来可能产生的影响，

and the impact particularly on, as you say, children and grandchildren.

正如你所说， 特别是对下一代以及下下一代的影响。

VN: Yeah, I believe that all life on Earth is sacred,

我相信地球上的所有生命都是神圣的，

and I believe that there is an intersection,

而且我相信所有生命

or interconnection of all life on the planet.

都是互相关联的。

And just to really add on that,

另外的，

in my tribe, I am a Muganda by tribe,

在我的部落里，我是部落的穆干达人

we have different clans.

我们有不同的氏族。

And I mean, the Njovu clan, njovu means elephant.

比如“Njovu”族， “Njovu”是大象的意思。

So recently I got to learn that you know,

最近我才知道

one of the reasons for putting the clans was to preserve wildlife.

设立不同氏族的目的之一 是保护野生动物。

And what happens with the clans

对不同氏族来说，

it means if I'm in the elephant clan,

假设我是“大象族”，

I can't eat an elephant.

那就意味着我不能吃大象肉，

I cannot harm or kill an elephant.

也不能伤害或者杀死大象。

So it will be the same for another person who is maybe in a lion clan.

假如另外有个人是“狮子族”， 也是一样的方式。

And there are different clans,

那里有不同的氏族，

you find that there are different clans of tree species

你可以发现有很多关于树的不同氏族，

or plant species or animals or marine species.

或植物种类或动物或海洋生物。

And in that way,

这种方式是一种智慧

that was the wisdom to preserve the different animals

来保护不同的动物、

and the different plants and the different trees.

不同植物和不同的树。

So I do believe that in a way there is a connection between, you know,

我真的相信有某种方式，

the different kinds of life on this Earth.

让地球上的不同生命可以互相连结。

MR: And what I wanted to ask you about is the importance, if you think so,

而且我想问你的是，你是否觉得

of intergenerational conversation.

代际的交流很重要。

VN: So I do believe that we need an intergenerational conversation

我觉得我们的确需要一个代际的交流

to address the climate crisis,

来应对气候危机，

because I am not the first climate activist in the whole world.

因为我并不是世界上第一个气候活动家。

And I know that, you know,

而且我知道，

the movement is not the first movement in the whole world.

现在的气候运动也不是世界上第一个。

I know that there have been people who have been organizing and mobilizing,

有很多人已经进行组织和动员

you know, for so many years,

很多年了，

demanding for, you know, climate justice or a better environment for all of us.

要求气候正义或者为所有人 争取一个更好的环境。

I know that you've been doing incredible work as well,

我知道，你在环境保护方面，

you know, for the environment.

也做了很非凡的工作。

So I believe I have something to learn from you

所以我坚信我可以从你

and many other people

和其他很多比我更早开始这项工作的人。

who started this work way before I did.

身上学习到很多东西。

And I also believe there is a place for them to learn from me as well.

同时我也相信他们也有向我学习的地方。

So I think it's a place of bridging the different wisdoms

所以我认为应该搭建

of the older generation and the younger generation

年长一代和年轻一代 的不同智慧的连接桥梁，

to come up with that one conversation.

来共同进行这个对话。

Because, you know,

因为你知道的，

the fight is not just for the younger generation.

应对气候变化不仅仅 是为了更年轻的一代，

The fight is for everyone.

它是为了每个人。

MR: So Vanessa, how do you see the increasing climate shocks basically,

凡妮莎，你如何看待气候冲突的加剧

and impacts impacting on the rights of people in African countries?

以及对非洲人民权利的影响？

VN: I will first of all mention something I remember in school

首先，我想说的是，

that was taught about rights.

我在学校学到的关于权利的内容。

So being told that people have the right to clean air

我学到的是： 人们有权利获得清洁的空气，

or people have the right to water or to housing,

有权利获得水和住所，

and these are the very things that the climate crisis is destroying.

而这每一项都被气候危机破坏了。

When it comes to water sources,

比如水资源方面，

we know that for so many people, so many communities,

我们知道，有那么多的人和社区

when they experience dry spells,

正在经历干旱，

they have to walk long distances to look for water.

他们需要走很远的路去寻找水源。

And, you know, when it comes to housing,

在居住方面，

we know that many people have lost their homes

我们知道有很多人 已经失去了他们的家园，

because of flooding, because of landslides.

由于洪水和山体滑坡。

We've had recent floods in Mbale region here in Uganda.

我们刚听说在乌干达的 姆巴莱地区最近发生了洪水。

And thousands of people were displaced, and their homes were destroyed.

数以千计的人家园被毁，流离失所，

So it's really a place of understanding

在这，就可以理解

that the very rights that we were taught in school, you know,

我们在学校被告知我们所拥有的权利

they are being affected by the climate crisis.

正在被气候危机影响。

Many times women are on the front lines of the climate crisis.

很多时候妇女在气候危机中首当其冲。

And this is because for many communities,

因为在很多地方，

women have the responsibilities of providing food,

女人承担着为他们的家庭

providing water for their families.

提供水和食物的责任。

MR: Many are farmers.

他们很多是农民。

是的，

VN: Exactly. So when, you know, crops are drying

当作物因为热浪干枯，

because of, you know, too much heat,

it's the women that are on those farms.

是妇女在这些田地里劳作。

When the farms are destroyed or washed away,

当田地被洪水冲刷，

it's the women that are impacted,

也是在田间劳作的妇女

they are the ones working on those farms.

受到最大的影响。

When water systems dry out,

当水源枯竭，

it's women that have to walk very long distances.

也是妇女们需要走很远的路去找水。

For some communities, it's even worse for, you know, children,

在一些社区，孩子的情况更加糟糕，

especially girls, who have to drop out of school.

特别是女孩，他们不得不从学校辍学。

Some are forced into early marriages,

有些被迫早婚，

because their families can't take them to school anymore.

因为她们的家庭不再送他们去学校。

And when they get them married off,

当她们的家长把她们嫁掉，

they expect a bride price

是指望着有一份彩礼

that can help them recover from the climate impacts.

能帮助他们从气候恶化的影响中恢复。

So it's really evident

有很多真实的案例

that the climate crisis disproportionately affects so many girls

说明气候危机正在极大地影响

and so many women across Uganda,

众多的女孩和妇女，

across Africa and across the world.

不仅在乌干达， 还有整个非洲以及全世界。

MR: I wonder what kind of message you would give

在我们对话的最后，

you know, just at the end of this conversation,

你能不能给出一些建议，

a final message of what action everybody can take.

是我们每个人都可以采取的行动。

And now I'm not talking about Africa.

我指的不仅仅是非洲，

I'm actually talking more about the world

我说的是全世界。

that needs to move more quickly

例如，我们需要更快地从

out of fossil fuel, for example.

从化石燃料中脱离出来。

But what message would you have

你有什么要对

for those who are listening to this conversation?

正在听我们这段对话的人说的？

VN: Yeah, I would first of all, say that many times, you know,

首先呢，很多时候

the climate crisis seems very complex.

气候危机显得非常复杂。

And many people want to do something,

很多人想要做点什么，

but they don't know exactly what they can do.

却又不知道可以做什么。

But there are so many things that can be done.

实际上有太多的事情可以做。

And you know, we all won't do everything.

一个人不可能做所有事。

But it's finding that thing that will transform something.

但是只要做一件事就可以产生一些改变。

You know, no one is too small to make a difference

每个人都可以产生改变，

and no action is too small to transform the world.

每个行动都在改变世界。

It's like we are all one body,

我们是一个共同体，

and every part of that body has different actions.

共同体的每个部分可以有不同的行动。

So it's a place of finding your part and lot in the body and say,

找到你在其中的那个部分，然后行动。

I would do this.

我会这么做。

That if you are in law,

假设你在司法部门，

we did an event about law together --

我们可以一起组织关于司法的活动。

MR: Yes, at COP26.

对，在COP26就有。

VN: At COP26.

是在COP26。

So if you are in law,

如果你在司法部门，

you can find your place in what you're doing

你可以在身为律师或者法官

that as a lawyer or as a judge,

的职业中找到你的位置，

you're going to support different activists

我们需要支持不同的气候活动家，

because you've seen activists take, you know,

因为你也看到了，

different cases to court in regards to climate issues.

他们就气候问题 向法院提起各类案件的诉讼。

That if you're a teacher,

如果你是一个老师，

you're going to use your space as a teacher in school

你可以用你作为一个学校老师的空间，

to teach the students,

让孩子们

to tell them not only about what is happening,

不仅仅知道即将发生的事，

but about what they can do.

也知道他们可以做什么。

So it's really a place of finding your part in the body

所以真的非常需要 找到你在共同体中的位置

and just doing your part,

然后做好你的部分。

because in the end,

因为到了最后，

when we put all the different actions

只有我们把共同体中的

of the different members of the body,

不同成员、不同行动集合到一起，

we actually transform the whole world.

我们才能够真正地改变世界。

MR: Yeah.

是的。

Well, Vanessa, all I can say is I have really enjoyed this conversation.

凡妮莎，最后我想说的是， 我非常享受今天的对话。

And I hope you have.

我希望你也是。

VN: Yes, I have, thank you so much.

我也是的，非常感谢你。

It was a lovely conversation, and I had so much to learn from you.

这是一个愉快的聊天， 我有太多东西要向你学习。