The nightmare videos of childrens' YouTube — and what's wrong with the internet today | James Bridle

翻译人员: jacks peng 校对人员: Joey Chen

I'm James.

我是詹姆斯。

I'm a writer and artist,

我是个作家和艺术家，

and I make work about technology.

我的工作跟技术有关。

I do things like draw life-size outlines of military drones

我做一些诸如绘制真实大小的军用无人机

in city streets around the world,

在世界各地城市街道上，

so that people can start to think and get their heads around

这样人们就可以去想象和思考

these really quite hard-to-see and hard-to-think-about technologies.

这些平时蛮难见到和蛮难想象的技术。

I make things like neural networks that predict the results of elections

我会制作一些神经网络的东西， 通过天气预报

based on weather reports,

来预测选举结果，

because I'm intrigued about

因为我感兴趣

what the actual possibilities of these weird new technologies are.

这些奇怪的新技术 实际的可能性是什么。

Last year, I built my own self-driving car.

去年，我还建造了自己的自动驾驶汽车。

But because I don't really trust technology,

但因为我不完全相信技术，

I also designed a trap for it.

我同时也给它设计了个包围圈。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And I do these things mostly because I find them completely fascinating,

我做这些事情主要是 因为我发现他们真的很吸引人，

but also because I think when we talk about technology,

但也因为我觉得当我们谈论科技时，

we're largely talking about ourselves

我们其实主要是谈论我们自身

and the way that we understand the world.

以及我们理解世界的方式。

So here's a story about technology.

下面的故事就是有关科技的。

This is a "surprise egg" video.

这是“惊喜蛋”视频。

It's basically a video of someone opening up loads of chocolate eggs

内容就是人打开各种巧克力蛋

and showing the toys inside to the viewer.

向观众展示里面的玩具是啥。

That's it. That's all it does for seven long minutes.

就这样，这视频长达7分钟。

And I want you to notice two things about this.

我想让你们注意这两点：

First of all, this video has 30 million views.

首先，这视频有3千万观看量。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And the other thing is,

另一件事是，

it comes from a channel that has 6.3 million subscribers,

它来自一个拥有630万订阅用户的频道，

that has a total of eight billion views,

该频道总播放量为80亿次，

and it's all just more videos like this --

这个频道主要都是这类的内容。

30 million people watching a guy opening up these eggs.

3千万人观看打开这些蛋蛋。

It sounds pretty weird, but if you search for "surprise eggs" on YouTube,

这听起来相当古怪， 但如果你在YouTube上搜索“惊喜蛋”，

it'll tell you there's 10 million of these videos,

它会告诉你这类视频多达1千万个，

and I think that's an undercount.

我认为这数字还低估了。

I think there's way, way more of these.

我认为数量远远大于此。

If you keep searching, they're endless.

如果你继续搜索，几乎无穷无尽。

There's millions and millions of these videos

这类视频，数不胜数。

in increasingly baroque combinations of brands and materials,

如巴洛克般花哨地 混合着各种品牌和材料，

and there's more and more of them being uploaded every single day.

每天这类视频上传的数量还越来越多。

Like, this is a strange world. Right?

这真是个奇怪的世界，对吗？

But the thing is, it's not adults who are watching these videos.

但事实是，不是成年人在看这些视频。

It's kids, small children.

是小朋友，小孩子们。

These videos are like crack for little kids.

这些视频就像小孩子的毒品。

There's something about the repetition,

是那种让人反复的东西，

the constant little dopamine hit of the reveal,

小多巴胺不断涌现出来，

that completely hooks them in.

完全令他们着迷不已。

And little kids watch these videos over and over and over again,

孩子们一遍又一遍地看这些视频，

and they do it for hours and hours and hours.

一个小时接一个小时地看。

And if you try and take the screen away from them,

如果你试图把屏幕关上，

they'll scream and scream and scream.

他们会朝你尖叫，尖叫，尖叫

If you don't believe me --

假如你不相信我——

and I've already seen people in the audience nodding --

我已经看到在座各位已经有人点头——

if you don't believe me, find someone with small children and ask them,

如果你不相信我，找个有小孩的人问问，

and they'll know about the surprise egg videos.

他们肯定知道这些惊喜蛋视频。

So this is where we start.

这就是我们开始的地方。

It's 2018, and someone, or lots of people,

2018年，有人，或很多人

are using the same mechanism that, like, Facebook and Instagram are using

在使用类似的机制，如Facebook 和Instagram就在使用的机制

to get you to keep checking that app,

来让你沉迷他们的应用，

and they're using it on YouTube to hack the brains of very small children

他们在YouTube上用这些机制 劫持小孩子的脑袋

in return for advertising revenue.

来换取广告收入。

At least, I hope that's what they're doing.

至少，我希望这是他们在做的事情。

I hope that's what they're doing it for,

我希望这是他们做这些事情的目的。

because there's easier ways of making ad revenue on YouTube.

因为Youtube上有更简单的 赚取广告收入的方式

You can just make stuff up or steal stuff.

你可以捏造或者干脆照搬其他人的作品。

So if you search for really popular kids' cartoons

所以如果你搜索真正流行的儿童卡通

like "Peppa Pig" or "Paw Patrol,"

比如“小猪佩奇”或者“狗狗巡逻队”

you'll find there's millions and millions of these online as well.

你会发现这类视频也有不计其数。

Of course, most of them aren't posted by the original content creators.

当然，其中绝大部分并非由 内容版权方上传。

They come from loads and loads of different random accounts,

他们来自大量不同的随机账号，

and it's impossible to know who's posting them

几乎无法知道谁在上传，

or what their motives might be.

他们的动机是什么 。

Does that sound kind of familiar?

这是不是听起来有点熟悉？

Because it's exactly the same mechanism

因为这完全就是同一套机制，

that's happening across most of our digital services,

几乎每个网络平台上都会利用它，

where it's impossible to know where this information is coming from.

我们根本无法知道这些信息的来源。

It's basically fake news for kids,

这就是给儿童看的假新闻，

and we're training them from birth

我们从他们出生开始

to click on the very first link that comes along,

训练他们点击每一个链接，

regardless of what the source is.

不管信息来源何处。

That's doesn't seem like a terribly good idea.

这听起来可不是个好主意。

Here's another thing that's really big on kids' YouTube.

这个视频在儿童的YouTube频道 也相当流行。

This is called the "Finger Family Song."

这叫做“手指之歌”。

I just heard someone groan in the audience.

我刚听到有人在观众席上叹气。

This is the "Finger Family Song."

这是“手指之歌”。

This is the very first one I could find.

这是我能找到的最初版本。

It's from 2007, and it only has 200,000 views,

来自2007年，当时只有20万播放量，

which is, like, nothing in this game.

在这场游戏中根本微不足道。

But it has this insanely earwormy tune,

但它拥有不可思议的绕梁三日音调，

which I'm not going to play to you,

我可不打算播放给你们听，

because it will sear itself into your brain

因为它也会钻进你的脑袋里，

in the same way that it seared itself into mine,

就跟它钻进我脑袋一样，

and I'm not going to do that to you.

我不打算那样对你们。

But like the surprise eggs,

但跟惊喜蛋一样

it's got inside kids' heads

它留在了孩子的头脑里

and addicted them to it.

让他们产生沉迷。

So within a few years, these finger family videos

所以不到几年，这些手指之歌视频

start appearing everywhere,

开始无处不在，

and you get versions in different languages

于是就有了各种语言的版本，

with popular kids' cartoons using food

有流行卡通使用食物

or, frankly, using whatever kind of animation elements

或者使用任何动画元素的版本。

you seem to have lying around.

你就像躺在上面一样。

And once again, there are millions and millions and millions of these videos

再一次，这些不计其数视频

available online in all of these kind of insane combinations.

以各种疯狂的组合方式在网上出现。

And the more time you start to spend with them,

你花在这些上面的时间越多，

the crazier and crazier you start to feel that you might be.

你就会觉得自己越来越疯癫。

And that's where I kind of launched into this,

这就是我要开始讲的，

that feeling of deep strangeness and deep lack of understanding

始终，我有一种陌生感， 我也不理解

of how this thing was constructed that seems to be presented around me.

这些东西如何被构建出来。

Because it's impossible to know where these things are coming from.

因为我没法知道这些东西来自哪里。

Like, who is making them?

比如，谁制作了它们？

Some of them appear to be made of teams of professional animators.

有些视频似乎来自专业动画团队。

Some of them are just randomly assembled by software.

有些只是随机由软件合成。

Some of them are quite wholesome-looking young kids' entertainers.

有些视频中有看起来友好的表演者

And some of them are from people

但也有一些视频中的人

who really clearly shouldn't be around children at all.

一看就是儿童不宜的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And once again, this impossibility of figuring out who's making this stuff --

再一次，几乎不可能搞清楚是谁 制作了这些东西。

like, this is a bot?

是机器人？

Is this a person? Is this a troll?

是人？还是网络喷子？

What does it mean that we can't tell the difference

我们无法分辨出彼此差别

between these things anymore?

到底意味着什么？

And again, doesn't that uncertainty feel kind of familiar right now?

再一次，这种不确定性是不是有点熟悉？

So the main way people get views on their videos --

所以人们获得观看量的主要方法是

and remember, views mean money --

记住，观看量意味着金钱，

is that they stuff the titles of these videos with these popular terms.

是他们用热门词充斥这些视频的标题。

So you take, like, "surprise eggs"

以“惊喜蛋”为例，

and then you add "Paw Patrol," "Easter egg,"

你会增加“狗狗巡逻队”、“复活节彩蛋“

or whatever these things are,

或者任何其他词语，

all of these words from other popular videos into your title,

这些来自其他热门视频的词 添加到你的标题，

until you end up with this kind of meaningless mash of language

直到你最终得到这种对人类而言

that doesn't make sense to humans at all.

毫无意义的词语混杂。

Because of course it's only really tiny kids who are watching your video,

因为当然只有很小的孩子在看你的视频，

and what the hell do they know?

他们能知道什么？

Your real audience for this stuff is software.

你这些东西的真正观众是软件，

It's the algorithms.

是算法。

It's the software that YouTube uses

这是YouTube使用来

to select which videos are like other videos,

选择哪个视频像哪个视频，

to make them popular, to make them recommended.

让他们流行和推荐的算法。

And that's why you end up with this kind of completely meaningless mash,

所以你最终得到的就是 这种完全没有意义的大杂烩，

both of title and of content.

不管是标题还是内容。

But the thing is, you have to remember,

但事情是，你需要记住，

there really are still people within this algorithmically optimized system,

这个优化的算法系统还是需要人的参与，

people who are kind of increasingly forced to act out

这些人被迫面对处理

these increasingly bizarre combinations of words,

这些越来越奇怪的词语组合，

like a desperate improvisation artist responding to the combined screams

就像一个绝望的即兴艺术家 要对上百万尖叫孩子组合

of a million toddlers at once.

做出回应一样。

There are real people trapped within these systems,

一些人则被困在这个系统里面，

and that's the other deeply strange thing about this algorithmically driven culture,

另一个很奇怪的事情是 关于算法驱动文化，

because even if you're human,

因为即便你是人类，

you have to end up behaving like a machine

你最终也会变得像机器一样，

just to survive.

只是为了生存。

And also, on the other side of the screen,

而且，屏幕的另一面是，

there still are these little kids watching this stuff,

这些小孩仍然在看这些视频，

stuck, their full attention grabbed by these weird mechanisms.

他们的注意力完全被 这些奇怪的机制所左右。

And most of these kids are too small to even use a website.

大部分小孩年纪都很小， 甚至还不会使用网页。

They're just kind of hammering on the screen with their little hands.

他们只会用他们的小手敲打着屏幕。

And so there's autoplay,

这是自动播放按钮，

where it just keeps playing these videos over and over and over in a loop,

它会不断循环播放这些视频，

endlessly for hours and hours at a time.

无休止持续数小时。

And there's so much weirdness in the system now

现在这个系统里有很多奇怪的东西

that autoplay takes you to some pretty strange places.

自动播放会带你去一些非常奇怪的地方。

This is how, within a dozen steps,

这里演示的是，在十几个步骤里，

you can go from a cute video of a counting train

你可能会从数火车的有趣视频

to masturbating Mickey Mouse.

播到手淫的米老鼠。

Yeah. I'm sorry about that.

是的，非常抱歉。

This does get worse.

事情确实变糟糕了。

This is what happens

这就是会发生的事情：

when all of these different keywords,

当所有这些不同的关键词

all these different pieces of attention,

所有可以吸引注意力的内容

this desperate generation of content,

所有迫不及待地让视频播出的心理

all comes together into a single place.

都在同一个地方冒出来。

This is where all those deeply weird keywords come home to roost.

这是这些非常怪异的关键词 自食其果的地方。

You cross-breed the finger family video

你混合了手指家庭视频

with some live-action superhero stuff,

和一些超级英雄的真人动作视频，

you add in some weird, trollish in-jokes or something,

你加入一些奇怪，恶搞或其他元素。

and suddenly, you come to a very weird place indeed.

突然之间，你就会进入非常怪异的领域。

The stuff that tends to upset parents

那些会让父母感到不安的东西

is the stuff that has kind of violent or sexual content, right?

是充满暴力和色情的内容，对吧？

Children's cartoons getting assaulted,

儿童们的卡通形象被侵犯，

getting killed,

被杀害，

weird pranks that actually genuinely terrify children.

怪异的恶作剧，真的让孩子们感到恐惧。

What you have is software pulling in all of these different influences

现在你所能得到的是软件 把这些不同的内容

自动组合成了儿童们的噩梦。

to automatically generate kids' worst nightmares.

And this stuff really, really does affect small children.

这些东西真的，真的会影响小孩子。

Parents report their children being traumatized,

父母报告说他们的孩子受到了精神创伤，

becoming afraid of the dark,

变得害怕黑暗，

becoming afraid of their favorite cartoon characters.

开始害怕他们喜爱的卡通角色。

If you take one thing away from this, it's that if you have small children,

如果你可以从中学到一件事： 如果你有小孩，

keep them the hell away from YouTube.

让他们远离YouTube。

(Applause)

（掌声）

But the other thing, the thing that really gets to me about this,

但另一件事情， 这事情真正让我关心这个的是

is that I'm not sure we even really understand how we got to this point.

我不确定我们是否真正理解 事情是如何发展到这一步的。

We've taken all of this influence, all of these things,

我们已经看到了所有这些影响， 所有这些东西，

and munged them together in a way that no one really intended.

以一种没人意料得到的方式 组合在一起。

And yet, this is also the way that we're building the entire world.

然而，这也是我们构建 整个世界的方式。

We're taking all of this data,

我们得到了所有这些数据，

a lot of it bad data,

无数的坏数据，

a lot of historical data full of prejudice,

大量充满偏见的历史数据，

full of all of our worst impulses of history,

充斥着历史上最糟糕冲动的数据，

and we're building that into huge data sets

我们把他们制作成海量数据集

and then we're automating it.

然后让它们自动化。

And we're munging it together into things like credit reports,

我们把它们生成信用报告，

into insurance premiums,

保险费用，

into things like predictive policing systems,

预测性警务系统，

into sentencing guidelines.

量刑建议。

This is the way we're actually constructing the world today

这就是我们今天基于这些数据

out of this data.

构建世界的方式。

And I don't know what's worse,

我不知道哪个更糟糕：

that we built a system that seems to be entirely optimized

是我们似乎建造了一个完全

for the absolute worst aspects of human behavior,

适合人类负面行为的优化系统，

or that we seem to have done it by accident,

或者我们只是无意中造就了它，

without even realizing that we were doing it,

完全没有意识，

because we didn't really understand the systems that we were building,

因为我们并不理解我们们正创建的系统，

and we didn't really understand how to do anything differently with it.

我们也并不知道是否有 其他不同的方式来使用它。

There's a couple of things I think that really seem to be driving this

我认为有几个因素看起来导致了

most fully on YouTube,

YouTube内容事件的发生，

and the first of those is advertising,

其中之首是广告。

which is the monetization of attention

一种靠注意力赢利的模式

without any real other variables at work,

而不考虑其他变量因素，

any care for the people who are actually developing this content,

不关心是哪些人确实开发了这些内容。

the centralization of the power, the separation of those things.

权力的集中，东西的分散。

And I think however you feel about the use of advertising

我想，不管你对用广告来宣传某物

to kind of support stuff,

有着什么样的看法，

the sight of grown men in diapers rolling around in the sand

在沙里翻滚的穿纸尿裤的大人

in the hope that an algorithm that they don't really understand

希望无知的机器算法

will give them money for it

会发钱给他们。

suggests that this probably isn't the thing

意味着这类事情

that we should be basing our society and culture upon,

不应该是我们社会和文化所依托的

and the way in which we should be funding it.

也不该是我们应该资助的。

And the other thing that's kind of the major driver of this is automation,

另一个主要驱动因素是自动化，

which is the deployment of all of this technology

是所有这些技术的部署

as soon as it arrives, without any kind of oversight,

多多益善，不加审察。

and then once it's out there,

而一旦出了问题，

kind of throwing up our hands and going, "Hey, it's not us, it's the technology."

就两手一摊，“嗨， 不是我们做的，技术搞的。”

Like, "We're not involved in it."

又如，“我们没有参与其中。”

That's not really good enough,

这还不够好，

because this stuff isn't just algorithmically governed,

因为这些平台不仅由算法控制，

it's also algorithmically policed.

还有被算法监管。

When YouTube first started to pay attention to this,

当YouTube开始关注到这个问题时，

the first thing they said they'd do about it

他们说他们会做的首要事情是

was that they'd deploy better machine learning algorithms

部署更好的机器学习算法

to moderate the content.

来控制内容。

Well, machine learning, as any expert in it will tell you,

好吧，机器学习， 很多专家都会告诉你，

is basically what we've started to call

就是那种我们开始说的

software that we don't really understand how it works.

我们无法真正理解它如何工作的软件。

And I think we have enough of that already.

我认为我们已经受够它了。

We shouldn't be leaving this stuff up to AI to decide

我们不该让AI决定

what's appropriate or not,

什么是合适与否的内容，

because we know what happens.

因为我们知道会发生什么。

It'll start censoring other things.

它会开始审查其他事情。

It'll start censoring queer content.

它会开始审查同性内容。

It'll start censoring legitimate public speech.

它会开始审查合法的公开演讲。

What's allowed in these discourses,

在演讲中应该允许什么，

it shouldn't be something that's left up to unaccountable systems.

这不该是留给不可靠系统去决定的事。

It's part of a discussion all of us should be having.

这是我们所有人都应该讨论的事情。

But I'd leave a reminder

但我要留个提醒

that the alternative isn't very pleasant, either.

替代方案也并非完美。

YouTube also announced recently

YouTube最近也宣布

that they're going to release a version of their kids' app

它们会推出它们的儿童版APP

that would be entirely moderated by humans.

将会完全由人工监管。

Facebook -- Zuckerberg said much the same thing at Congress,

Facebook——扎克伯格在国会上 也说了类似的话，

when pressed about how they were going to moderate their stuff.

当被问到如何去调整他们的产品时。

He said they'd have humans doing it.

他说他们会让人处理。

And what that really means is,

那其实隐含的意思是，

instead of having toddlers being the first person to see this stuff,

以其让蹒跚学步的孩子 成为第一个看到这些东西的人，

you're going to have underpaid, precarious contract workers

你打算让那些工资过低，不稳定，

without proper mental health support

没有心理辅导的临时工

being damaged by it as well.

被那些视频伤害。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And I think we can all do quite a lot better than that.

我想我们都可以做得比这更好。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

The thought, I think, that brings those two things together, really, for me,

总结这两件事，我的想法在于：

is agency.

自主能动性

It's like, how much do we really understand -- by agency, I mean:

就像，我们是否真正懂得“自主能动性”：

how we know how to act in our own best interests.

我们是否知怎样按照 自己的最佳利益行事。

Which -- it's almost impossible to do

而这几乎无法在

in these systems that we don't really fully understand.

我们并不完全理解的系统中实现。

Inequality of power always leads to violence.

权力的不对等总会导致暴力。

And we can see inside these systems

我们可以在这些系统中看到

that inequality of understanding does the same thing.

理解的不对等也会造成同样的结果。

If there's one thing that we can do to start to improve these systems,

如果我们能够做一件事情 去提升这些系统，

it's to make them more legible to the people who use them,

那就是让它们变得更透明

so that all of us have a common understanding

这样我们所有的人都对其中的情况

of what's actually going on here.

有一个共同的理解。

The thing, though, I think most about these systems

但是，我认为这些系统的关键问题

is that this isn't, as I hope I've explained, really about YouTube.

我希望我已解释过了， 这真的并不是YouTube的问题。

It's about everything.

任何事都是一样。

These issues of accountability and agency,

这些问责和自主能动性，

of opacity and complexity,

不透明性和复杂性问题，

of the violence and exploitation that inherently results

暴力和剥削问题

是因为权力集中于少数人手中。

from the concentration of power in a few hands --

these are much, much larger issues.

这些都是更大的问题。

And they're issues not just of YouTube and not just of technology in general,

他们不仅是YouTube的问题， 而且不仅仅是科技问题，

and they're not even new.

它们甚至都不是新问题。

They've been with us for ages.

他们已经存在很久了。

But we finally built this system, this global system, the internet,

但是我们最终建立了这个系统， 这个全球系统，互联网，

that's actually showing them to us in this extraordinary way,

它实际上是用这种特殊的方式 向我们展示，

making them undeniable.

他们至高无上。

Technology has this extraordinary capacity

技术有这种非凡的能力

to both instantiate and continue

去具现化和继续

all of our most extraordinary, often hidden desires and biases

我们所有最卓越，而通常 被隐藏的欲望和偏见，

and encoding them into the world,

并把它们编码到世界中，

but it also writes them down so that we can see them,

但是它也会把它们写下来， 这样我们就能看到它们了。

so that we can't pretend they don't exist anymore.

所以我们不能假装这些问题不再存在了。

We need to stop thinking about technology as a solution to all of our problems,

我们需要停止把技术 当作是解决一切问题的良方，

but think of it as a guide to what those problems actually are,

而应把它看作指引我们发现 问题的指南针，

so we can start thinking about them properly

这样我们才可以开始正视它们

and start to address them.

并开始着手解决它们。

Thank you very much.

谢谢！

(Applause)

（掌声）

Thank you.

谢谢！

(Applause)

（掌声）

Helen Walters: James, thank you for coming and giving us that talk.

海伦·沃尔特斯：詹姆斯， 谢谢你的到来和这个演讲。

So it's interesting:

这很有趣：

when you think about the films where the robotic overlords take over,

当在电影中，当那些机器人 开始统治世界时，

it's all a bit more glamorous than what you're describing.

那个景象好似比你描述的更加宏伟。

But I wonder -- in those films, you have the resistance mounting.

但我想知道的是，在那些电影里， 往往会有人类抵抗军

Is there a resistance mounting towards this stuff?

现实中是否也存在这些反抗军呢？

Do you see any positive signs, green shoots of resistance?

你有没有看到任何积极的迹象， 抵抗的萌芽？

James Bridle: I don't know about direct resistance,

詹姆斯·布里德尔：我不清楚 直接的抵抗力量，

because I think this stuff is super long-term.

因为我觉得这是非常长期的问题。

I think it's baked into culture in really deep ways.

我认为它在文化中根深蒂固。

A friend of mine, Eleanor Saitta, always says

我的朋友，埃莉诺·萨塔，总是说

that any technological problems of sufficient scale and scope

任何足够规模和范围的科技问题

are political problems first of all.

首先是政治问题。

So all of these things we're working to address within this

所有这些我们在努力解决的问题

are not going to be addressed just by building the technology better,

不能仅仅通过研发更好的技术来解决，

but actually by changing the society that's producing these technologies.

而应通过改变产生 这些技术的社会来解决。

So no, right now, I think we've got a hell of a long way to go.

所以，现在我想我们还有很长的路要走。

But as I said, I think by unpacking them,

但就像我说的，我想把它们拆解，

by explaining them, by talking about them super honestly,

通过解构他们，诚实地谈论他们

we can actually start to at least begin that process.

我们至少可以开始这个过程。

HW: And so when you talk about legibility and digital literacy,

沃尔特斯: 还有当你谈到易读性和 数字素养时，

I find it difficult to imagine

我觉得非常难以想象

that we need to place the burden of digital literacy on users themselves.

我们要把数字扫盲的负担 放在用户身上。

But whose responsibility is education in this new world?

但在这个新世界，教育是谁的责任？

JB: Again, I think this responsibility is kind of up to all of us,

布里德尔：再次，我认为这个责任是 我们所有人的责任，

that everything we do, everything we build, everything we make,

我们所做的、所构建的、所制造的一切，

needs to be made in a consensual discussion

需要与每个回避问题的人

with everyone who's avoiding it;

以相互求同为目的，进行讨论；

that we're not building systems intended to trick and surprise people

我们建造这些系统并不是为了 去诱惑人

into doing the right thing,

去做正确的事情。

but that they're actually involved in every step in educating them,

而是教育他们的每一步，

because each of these systems is educational.

因为每一个系统都是有教育意义的。

That's what I'm hopeful about, about even this really grim stuff,

这就是我所希望的， 即使是非常严峻的问题，

that if you can take it and look at it properly,

如果你能正确地看待它，

it's actually in itself a piece of education

这本身就是一种教育，

that allows you to start seeing how complex systems come together and work

让你可以开始看到复杂的系统 是如何结合在一起工作的

and maybe be able to apply that knowledge elsewhere in the world.

也许能够将这些知识 应用到世界的其他地方。

HW: James, it's such an important discussion,

沃尔特斯：詹姆斯， 这是一个很重要的讨论，

and I know many people here are really open and prepared to have it,

我知道这里很多人都乐于和你讨论，

so thanks for starting off our morning.

谢谢你今早的开场演讲。

JB: Thanks very much. Cheers.

布里德尔：非常感谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）