The Danger and Devotion of Fighting for Women in Afghanistan | Tamana Ayazi | TED

翻译人员: Jacky He 校对人员: Yip Yan Yeung

Kat Craig: Tamana, welcome.

凯特·克雷格（Kat Craig）： 塔玛娜，欢迎。

It's so wonderful to have you here today.

今天你来到了这里，真好。

Thank you for joining us.

非常感谢你的参与。

We're going to be talking about your directorial feature debut

我们将会谈论你 已经亮相的导演作品

"In Her Hands."

《在她的双手之中》。

I can't wait to hear all about that process

我迫不及待地想知道

of making such a beautiful film.

如此精美的片子的整个制作过程。

But before we start, can you tell us a little bit

但在我们开始之前， 你能跟我们简单讲讲

about what it was like when you were younger in Afghanistan,

你年轻时在阿富汗的经历，

what it was like growing up?

在那儿长大是怎么样的？

Tamana Ayazi: Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here with you.

塔玛娜·阿亚兹（Tamana Ayazi）： 非常感谢。很高兴能来到这里。

Some of the good memories I have from my childhood

我对童年的一些美好回忆比如

[are] being able to play soccer on the street with boys, with my friends.

能在街上和男孩们、朋友们踢足球。

And also I used to have a bike.

我以前还有一辆自行车。

I used to go out every evening with my friends

每天晚上， 我会与我的朋友骑出去

to bring groceries,

买杂货，

to just go, you know, spend some time together

享受彼此的陪伴，

and just be there and exist.

待在那儿感受当下。

KC: And that very active life has continued for you.

克雷格：你也保持着 这种活跃的生活习惯......

I know that you started making films

我知道你很早就开始制作影片了，

at a really young age,

when you were still in high school, is that right?

是从高中时代开始的，是这样吗？

TA: Yes, I was in 11th grade when I started.

阿亚兹：对， 最初是在 11 年级的时候，

I was part of a program

我参与了一个项目，

called Citizen Journalism and Documentary Filmmaking,

叫做“市民新闻和纪录片拍摄”，

and I was representing my hometown, Mazar, north of Afghanistan.

并代表着我的家乡， 阿富汗北部的马扎。

And that’s how I started making films.

这就是我怎么走上制片之路的。

And it was -- we were supposed to make one documentary,

我们被要求拍摄一部纪录片——

one short documentary per month from pre-production to post-production.

每月从前期到后期制作 完成一部短片。

And we were very excited about that.

而我们对此非常期待。

And it opened other doors.

它也使得许多成为可能。

I was able to go to the places I have never been

我能前往我从未去过的那些地方，

and I was able to meet people, communicate,

也能碰见各种人，交流、

listen to them and try to tell their stories.

倾听，并尝试重述他们的故事。

KC: Let's talk a little bit about "In Her Hands."

凯特·克雷格：我们来谈谈 《在她的双手之中》。

Can you summarize a little bit about what the film is about

你能总结一下影片的内容，

and why you chose to tell that story?

以及你选择讲叙 这个故事的原因吗？

TA: The film is about a strong woman

阿亚兹：这部电影是 关于一位女强人

who was trying to make a change in her community.

试图在她的社区推行改变的故事。

And like many other Afghans from my generation,

和我这一代的许多阿富汗人一样，

Zarifa Ghafari was trying to make a change in her own hometown

扎里法·加法里（Zarifa Ghafari）也尝试着 做出变革，在她的家乡，

of Maidan Shar, Maidan Wardak.

瓦尔达克省的迈丹城内。

And she was quite famous in Afghanistan,

她在阿富汗也挺有名，

so I was really curious to know about her more.

所以我很想更进一步了解她。

So that's how I visited her.

于是我拜访了她。

And then we were trying to make a film not only about who Zarifa was,

之后，我们便试图拍部电影， 其内容不仅关于加法里的身世，

but also the country itself.

还涉及了国家本身。

So we tried to include other characters to be able to tell a story of the country,

我们试着把其他能够讲述 这个国家故事的人物也拍进来。

not only one person.

不止主角一个人。

And the journey of the country

还有国家迈向 2021 年的征途。

towards 2021.

(Video) Zarifa Ghafari: In the name of Allah. May God protect us.

（视频）扎里法·加法里： 以真主之名，愿上帝保护我们。

[马苏姆，加法里的司机兼保镖]

Driver: I’m Mayor Zarifa Ghafari’s driver, and I guard her 24/7.

马苏姆：我是扎里法·加法里市长的司机， 我全天候 24/7 守卫她。

And I'm very happy

我很高兴能为这位如此尽责地

to be serving a woman

who so completely serves her country

服务她的国家与人民的女性干活。

and her people.

ZG: After we pass these deserts, we’ll feel safer.

加法里：经过了这些沙漠之后， 我们感到更安全了一点。

Slow down. Drive slowly.

减速，慢行。

Cars are heading towards us.

有车朝着我们开来。

(Horn blares)

（喇叭声）

Driver: I drive above the speed limit,

马苏姆：我超速行驶，

one hand on the steering wheel, one on my pistol,

一只手放在方向盘上， 一只手握紧我的手枪，

because the road I drive Zarifa on every day

因为我每天载着扎里法 在喀布尔和迈丹城之间

between Kabul and Maidan Shar is controlled by the Taliban.

往返的道路被塔利班控制了。

She is a champion for me and our people.

她是我与人民的骄傲。

I live every second of my life with the memory of her.

我在生命的每一秒里 都会想着她。

KC: So the film spans a period --

克雷格：那么 这部影片拍了段时间——

I think you started working on the project in 2020

我记得你从 2020 年 开始推进该项目，

and Zarifa, the main character,

而主角扎里法

is the youngest female mayor in Afghanistan,

是阿富汗一个省首府 最年轻的女市长；

in the capital city of a province

在那块地方，塔利班势力庞大。

that has always had a strong Taliban presence.

And you did go out and you filmed in the mountains with the Taliban.

而且你进入了山区拍摄塔利班。

You said earlier that one of your favorite parts of filmmaking

你之前说你最喜欢的 电影制作环节之一

is talking with people and telling their stories.

就是与人交谈，讲述他们的故事。

It must have been difficult meeting people whose views you don't share.

去见那些和你观点相异的人 肯定不容易。

Tell us a little bit about how you managed to build those relationships

跟我们讲讲你是怎么建立 和他们的关系的，

and how you were able to film there.

还有你是如何获准在那儿拍摄的。

TA: I think filmmaking and storytelling is more about listening to people,

阿亚兹：我认为电影制作和述说故事 更侧重于倾听人们的声音，

understanding them, no matter how different they are.

理解他们， 不论他们有多么不同。

So this is how --

那么是这样——

When we started working on this documentary, "In Her Hands,"

当我们开始着手于这部 纪录片《在她的双手之中》时，

that's how it started.

是这么开端的。

So with Zarifa, for me, it was easier because she was a woman,

扎里法对我来说容易些， 因为她也是女性，

she was from my own generation

和我是同一代人，

and we were trying to make a change in our communities,

并且我们在尝试 改变我们的社区，

using different tools or different ways.

尽管是通过不同的办法或方式。

But then also we thought that's important to include also the Taliban,

但后来我们觉得 应该把塔利班也拍进去，

because there was peace talks going on between the US government and the Taliban,

因为美国政府与塔利班之间的 和谈正在进行，

but Afghans were not included.

但阿富汗人被排斥在外。

And we, as Afghan woman,

而我们，作为阿富汗妇女，

knew that we will be more affected than anyone

深知如果国内有任何变动，

if there is any change in the country,

特别是塔利班未来会重拾政权的话，

especially if Taliban will come back to power.

我们最会受其影响。

KC: When you met with some of the senior leadership

克雷格：当你在塔利班控制区

in the region of the Taliban,

与一些塔利班高级头目会面时，

how did they respond to you?

他们对你答复如何？

Were you able to have conversations

你们能进行沟通吗？

and did their opinion of you,

还有你觉得，他们对你的认识

do you think, change over the course of the filming?

经过这段时间的拍摄后 有没有变化？

TA: When I first started contacting the Taliban,

阿亚兹：我最初 联系塔利班的时候，

so basically we did it through the leadership.

是通过他们的领导层。

We contacted them to be able to go there and film them.

我们联系他们 以获批到那儿去拍摄。

It took us some time, they did not respond to messages on time.

这花了我们一段时间， 因为他们没有及时回复。

So it took us weeks and months to get permission.

经过了很长时间才得到许可。

But then once I was there, because I was a woman,

但当我到达那里， 因为我是女性......

and then after -- they said after 25 or more years,

塔利班说， 过了 25 年或更长的时间，

there was an Afghan filmmaker, a woman on the mountains with them.

一位阿富汗籍电影制作人，还是 一位女性，要和他们一起待在山上。

So they were quite shocked to see me there.

所以他们见到我时颇感震惊。

So when I was doing the first interview, they tried to not look at me.

我做第一次采访的时候， 他们的目光尝试避开我。

But then I remember by the time they started,

但我记得随着时间的推移，

他们在我旁边更加自在了。

you know, being more comfortable.

And then at the end, I remember when I was saying goodbye

到后来，我记得 我与其中一位领导，

to one of the leaders, one of the commanders,

其中一位长官道别时，

he was blushing and he wanted to shake hands with me.

他有些脸红，想要和我握手。

And then that time I wasn't sure. I was like, what will happen?

那时我心里不踏实。 我想着，会发生什么？

Because I see all these other Taliban commanders and Taliban soldiers,

因为我看到其他这些 塔利班指挥官和塔利班士兵，

and they had their guns with them.

站在那儿持着枪。

So I was like, what if I shake hands and something happens to me?

我想，如果我去握手， 然后遭遇不测呢？

And I remember our local producer who visited Taliban so many times before,

我想起我们当地和塔利班 打过无数次交道的制片人，

he kept saying, "Tamana, be careful, don't do that."

他一直说，“塔玛娜， 小心点，别这么做。”

So, yeah.

所以......

KC: And did you shake his hand?

克雷格：那你和他握手了吗？

TA: He didn't want to do that at the end. So yeah, we left at that.

阿亚兹：他最后不想这么做。 所以就这样结束了。

KC: Yeah.

克雷格：理解。

(Video) Solider 1: The government has failed the people of Afghanistan.

（视频）士兵一： 政府辜负了阿富汗人民。

Ask the people here whether the government has done anything for them.

问问当地人政府 有帮他们解决任何事吗？

Solider 2: We are from this country, and we will serve it.

士兵二：我们来自这个国家， 我们将为它献力。

Solider 3: Brave Mujahideen!

士兵三：英勇的圣战者！

Solider 4: Until we establish Islamic rule across the whole planet,

士兵四：直到我们树立起 跨越整个星球的伊斯兰政权，

we will not surrender to anyone.

我们不会做出任何让步。

I have been put here to fight people.

我被派遣至此与人战斗。

I have been instructed to kill people.

我受到指示要去杀死他们，

To destroy people, behead people.

消灭、砍头。

Until they believe there is no god but Allah.

直至他们相信唯一的神是真主阿拉。

Musafer: I’ve fought in these mountains since the US invasion in 2001.

穆萨弗：自从 2001 年美国入侵以来， 我就在这些山头上作战。

Look at me, I am 36 years old,

看看我，我 36 岁年纪，

but everyone thinks I am 40 or 50 years old.

但所有人都以为我四五十岁了。

KC: This is with the same people who were sending written death threats to Zarifa,

克雷格：这些是 早在 2017 年就向

the main character in the film,

影片的主角，扎里法，

as early as 2017.

送去死亡威胁信的人。

Tell us a bit about the risks that both she and you faced

跟我们谈谈她和你承受的一些风险，

working in a province that had such a strong Taliban presence.

关于在塔利班猖獗的 省份那儿的工作。

TA: It just came back. I can still feel it.

阿亚兹：才回忆起来， 我仍然能深切体会到。

It was not an easy experience

这不是一次轻松的经历，

because you know that any moment you might get killed.

因为你知道说不准 什么时候就会遭遇不测。

And there were times when we filmed at night,

还有我们在晚上拍摄的时候，

days and nights in Maidan Wardak,

在迈丹城的日日夜夜，

I was with her

我在她身旁，

and there was fighting going on between [the] Afghan army and the Taliban.

阿富汗军队和塔利班就在附近打仗，

And also, whenever we were in the car,

然后，每当我们坐到车里，

I remember she used to hold my hand really tight,

我记得她便会紧紧握住我的手，

saying that “Tamana, what if there is a sticky bomb in this side of the car

说到，“塔玛娜，如果 汽车这一侧，还是那一侧

or that side of the car?”

有反坦克手榴弹怎么办？”

But, you know, when you're going through so many crises,

但是这样的，经历着 如此多危机的时候，

you find ways to deal with it.

你总会想办法去应对。

And then we try to remember the good things

我们尝试去记起

about, you know, being there.

待在那儿的美好一面。

And then I used to say that, "Zarifa, we are very close to Kabul."

然后我说，“扎里法， 我们离喀布尔很近了。”

It happened most of the time on the way between Maidan Wardak and Kabul.

基本上是在连接迈丹城和 喀布尔的路上发生的。

Or I remember when we were in the city

我还记得我们在城里时，

and we lost a few friends in Taliban sticky bombs explosions.

塔利班的手榴弹爆炸 夺走了我们几位朋友的生命。

And we were down most of the time,

于是我们大部分时间情绪低落，

but that doesn’t mean that there was no life.

但生活还是得继续。

We found ways to deal with it.

我们找到了坚持下去的方法。

We found ways to be happy.

我们找到了快乐的路子。

We found ways to find solutions, at least to raise our voice.

我们找到了寻找方案、 更好地发声的途径。

I remember we did campaigns.

我记得我们发起过运动，

We did protests to --

我们组织抗议以——

make people, our leaders, and the world leaders,

使民众、我们的领袖 和世界领导人

listen to what was happening and what was waiting for us in the future.

知悉正在发生的 和未来等待着我们的是什么。

But unfortunately, I think we ended up where none of us were ready.

但不幸的是，我觉得我们到现在 没有一个人做足了准备。

(Video) ZG: Whenever I meet people from different communities,

（视频）加法里：每当我遇到 来自各个社区的人，

I ask them to educate their children

我恳求他们教育自己的孩子，

because education is the only way out of this situation in Afghanistan.

因为教育是在阿富汗 这样的境况下唯一的出路。

Hello, how are you? Are you well?

你好，最近怎么样？过得还好吗？

We thank you for coming here.

我们感谢你来到这里。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Our girls do study. There...

我们这儿的女性会读书。 有......

There are some classes.

有一些课程。

ZG: As a girl, I studied. I have a bachelor’s and a master’s degree.

加法里：作为一个女孩，我读过书。 我拥有学士学位和硕士学位。

When I was studying, I had to walk an hour each way to my school in Paktika.

读书的时候，我不得不 每天走一个小时的路

抵达位于帕克提卡省的学校。

There were many suicide attacks and fights.

经常有冲突和自杀式袭击。

My father told me not to go anymore.

我父亲让我不要再去了，

So I started going to school secretly.

于是我便偷偷地去上学。

I was going to school in secret after he went to the office.

我在他去上班后偷偷去上学。

It was my lifetime dream

能看到我的父母

对我的声誉与成就感到骄傲

to see that my parents are proud

of my reputation and my achievements.

是我一生的愿望。

So please educate your daughters and send them to school.

教育你们的女儿， 把她们送去读书吧。

If you educate one girl or woman, you save ten generations.

如果我们培育了一位女性， 我们便保障了十代人的命运。

KC: You spoke about how many women in Afghanistan

克雷格：你谈到阿富汗有多少妇女

were actively campaigning

正在积极抗争着以

to continue to move forward and not to fall back into old ways.

持续前进，避免退回到旧的那一套。

As the filming progressed and you realized that the Taliban were gaining power

随着拍摄的推进， 你意识到塔利班势头不减，

and more likely to come back to a position of strength,

很可能会归来并重新掌权，

how did that feel for you and Zarifa?

对此你与扎里法有何感受？

Did it change when you were in villages and cities?

城里城外有没有什么区别？

Could you tell there was something different in the air?

你有没有发觉什么变化的迹象？

TA: Whenever I was in Kabul,

阿亚兹：当我在喀布尔时，

I was not able to see the change

我观察不到那些变化，

because everything was OK.

因为一切似乎依旧，

Everything was alright.

情况一切正常。

But whenever I went to the villages, to other provinces ...

但当我去了农村及其他省......

And I remember coming back, I came with a lot of information,

我印象中回来时， 满载着许多信息，

but I was not really able to tell even my own family.

而这我连自己的家人也无法透露。

I didn't want my sisters to be scared of the future.

我不想让我的姐妹对未来感到害怕。

I didn't want my mother to be scared of her future and my future.

我不想使母亲 为我和她的未来感到担忧。

And if I have told them that,

如果我跟她们讲了，

OK, I saw that these things were happening in the provinces,

讲述我在那些省份看到的种种，

especially meeting Taliban,

特别是与塔利班的会面......

I knew that they were progressing.

我知道她们也在进步......

And I remember whenever I went to other provinces in the past,

我记得每当我去到其他省份，

I wasn't really sure about it

我也下不了结论，

but it was eye-opening to see all, you know,

不过这让人开了眼界，见到那些

the Taliban, people like me,

塔利班，和像我这样的

ordinary Afghans,

阿富汗民众，

all of us, we were trying to build a country in our own ways,

我们所有人都在努力 以我们自己的方式构建一个国家，

but ended up destroying the whole country.

但最终把它给毁掉了。

And the --

以及——

The flags changed when we crossed from one territory to another territory.

我们从一块领地进入 另一块领地时，改旗易帜了。

There was a republic flag, and then there was [a] Taliban flag.

先是一面共和国国旗， 然后又是塔利班旗帜。

So we knew that there is a difference.

我们知道其中的差别。

And I remember, Zarifa and I, and other friends, female friends,

我还记得，扎里法和我， 与其他朋友，女性朋友，

we talked about it a lot.

我们对此谈论很多。

We were like, we need to push for it. We need to do something to change it.

我们是这样认为的，我们需要付出 努力。我们需要做点什么去改变它。

We knew, we had the fear in our heart that Taliban might come back,

我们知道，我们提心吊胆 塔利班有卷土重来的可能，

but we thought they will be part of the government.

但我们以为他们会 成为政府的一部分。

And the way it happened --

而实际发生的情况——

when the government collapsed,

当政府垮台，

it was not only the government, it was --

不仅仅是政府，是——

the people, full of hopes and dreams.

民众希望与梦想的破灭。

And the future collapsed in front of us and we couldn't do anything about it.

未来的愿景在眼前分崩离析， 我们却无能为力。

We did have fear, but we didn't know that it would end up the way it did.

我们确实是害怕的， 但没料到会是现在这样。

KC: And eventually it got so bad

克雷格：这终究变得如此糟糕，

that Zarifa had to leave, she left.

以至于扎里法得离开，于是她走了。

She came back. She had to leave again.

她后来回去，但不得不再次离开。

You have had to leave.

你也被迫离开。

And it's something that very few people have to make those difficult decisions.

而且很少有人 需做出这么艰难的抉择。

It must have taken a lot.

你需要付出太多了。

Do you plan to go back if you can?

如果可以的话，你打算回去吗？

Would you return?

你还会回去吗？

TA: After Toronto for one week my heart was really calm

阿亚兹：在多伦多待了一周后， 我的内心十分平静，

and I was thinking about it,

我想着，

because since I left Afghanistan, the fire was there, you know?

自从我离开了阿富汗， 那儿便开始遭遇浩劫；

And when I left, I left my soul in Afghanistan with my loved ones,

而当我离开时，我把我的灵魂 留在了阿富汗的亲友身旁，

with my country, with my homeland,

留在我的祖国，我的家乡，

with everything I had and built for all these years.

撇下了我这些年来 拥有和努力得来的一切。

The way we left, we didn’t know that it [would] happen.

我们匆匆离去， 未曾预料到这会发生。

And I remember when I left, I did not say bye to my loved ones.

我记得我离开时， 也没有和挚爱之人说再见。

I still remember my family.

我仍然想念我的家人。

I still remember my friends.

我还惦记着我的朋友。

I told them that, you know, this is not a goodbye.

我告诉他们，这不是道别。

I cannot say goodbye.

我不能与他们告别。

You don't know what will happen.

你无法预测会发生什么。

I will come back.

我会回来的。

I will go to the airport.

我会去机场。

I don’t know [if] it will happen or not.

我不知道是否能实现......

I will be back.

我还会回来的。

And I was making excuses because I didn't want to leave my country.

而且我找了借口， 因为我不想离开我的国家。

That was home. That was everything.

这是故土。这是一切。

Yeah, I kept my passport.

是的，我留着我的护照。

But yeah, that's what keeps me alive.

但确实，它让我活下来了。

And people might have different dreams.

人们也许会有不同的梦想。

Some people might think that, OK, I want to travel.

有些人觉得，“我想去旅行。

I want to make the best fun, I want to do this and that.

我想恣意洒脱， 我想做这个、做那个。”

But my biggest dream is to go back to Afghanistan

但我最大的梦想 是回到阿富汗，

and live the way I used to live.

过我以前的生活。

KC: We all hope that that will happen sooner rather than later.

克雷格：我们都希望这将尽早实现。

But for now, we know that the situation is very difficult for many women.

但就目前而言，我们知道 许多女性的处境是异常艰难的。

You came to Europe

你来到欧洲，

and even here we've spoken about the everyday sexism

即使是这里 我们也在谈论人们经历的

that you experience

生活中的性别歧视，

and how exhausting it is to educate men

以及教导男人 性别平等方面的

on issues around gender equality.

问题有多累。

Are there parallels?

有类似的地方吗？

Do you see any opportunities for us to learn from each other?

你觉得是否有双方 互相学习的机会？

Because I know many people in the audience will feel your pain

因为我认为在座很多人 能体会你的痛苦，

and recognize that exhaustion.

并代入这种精疲力竭感。

How do we learn from each other?

我们该怎么相互学习？

How do we work together as women globally to create change?

我们如何加入全球的女性 一起做出改变？

TA: Sexism is everywhere

阿亚兹：性别歧视不分国界，

and we need to come together to work on it.

所以我们需要团结起来对付它。

But the only thing I would say [is] that it’s tiring and exhausting,

但我要说的唯一一点是， 这会让你精疲力竭，

but we should not give up. We cannot stop.

但我们不应该放弃。 我们不能止步不前。

KC: Absolutely.

克雷格：确实如此。

TA: So we need to have solidarity,

阿亚兹：所以我们得团结一致，

to work on it together, to push for it.

共同努力，为之斗争。

KC: And hearing stories like yours, like Zarifa,

克雷格：听着像你和 扎里法这样的故事——

there's an amazing line in the documentary

纪录片中有一句很棒的台词，

where we follow her

即我们看到她

in such extraordinarily difficult circumstances

在如此超乎困难的情况下

and she's constantly under threat.

不停受到威胁时，

And she says, "Well, men have had 40-50 years to get this right

她说，“嗯，男人花了 四五十年的时间来稳住局势，

and they haven't yet done it right.

但他们现在还没做到。

So I'm not going to give up."

所以我不会放弃的。”

Is that representative of the spirits of many women

这能代表你在阿富汗遇到的

that you encountered in Afghanistan?

许多女性的精神吗？

TA: The spirit of almost all the women I know in my country,

阿亚兹：这是我在我的国家 所认识的所有女性的精神，

including my grandmother, my mother, my friends.

包括我的祖母、 我的母亲和我的朋友。

All of us.

我们所有人。

Because, yeah, war is ugly.

因为，是的，战争是残酷的。

And it was the men who created the war.

是男人发动了战争，

It was the men who made peace.

也是男人创造了和平。

We always pushed for it.

我们一直为之奋斗，

But then there was no space for us [at] the table,

但是谈判桌上从来没有我们的位置，

no matter how hard we pushed for it.

无论我们怎么去争取。

But it doesn't mean that we give up and it's done.

但这不意味着我们 放弃了，随它去了。

And we are, you know ... We made peace with that.

而且我们...... 就这么听之任之了。

It was the spirit of the whole country.

这是整个国家的精神。

It still is.

它现在还是。

And it is the women who are [the] resistance in Afghanistan today.

女性才是如今 阿富汗的反抗势力。

They were protesting in solidarity with Iranian women in Kabul,

她们与伊朗籍女性在 喀布尔伊朗大使馆前，

in front of [the] Iranian embassy.

共同抗议。

So yeah, I think the future is female.

所以我觉得未来属于女性。

It's us.

属于我们。

And we are the ones who can make change because we don't fight.

我们是变化的缔造者， 因为我们不窝里横。

We don't care about ego.

我们不在乎虚荣。

We care about solutions.

我们关心的是解决方案。

KC: So all of the people listening today, inspired by your story,

克雷格：今天那么多的听众， 听了你的故事受到了启发，

by the strength of women in Afghanistan,

以及阿富汗妇女的坚韧......

what can we do to support the struggle?

我们可以做些什么 来支持这场斗争？

You said solidarity is key to change, and I couldn't agree more.

你提到了团结一致是改变的关键， 我对此十分同意。

How do we work together?

我们该如何合作？

What can we do to keep the plight of women in Afghanistan in the news

我们能做些什么， 让阿富汗女性的遭遇持续被报道，

and to make sure that one day you're able to return

并确保你终有一日能回去，

and do the wonderful work that you've been doing?

并延续你之前的优秀工作？

TA: I think women in Afghanistan need solidarity more than anything right now.

阿亚兹：我认为阿富汗的女性 比任何时候都需要齐心协力。

I remember I was interviewing women who were protesting

我记得我在采访参与抗议的女性，

because I was working on research for Amnesty International.

因为我在为国际特赦组织工作。

And whenever we talked,

每一次，

I was asking them why they started protesting

我都问她们为什么要抗议。

and they said that, "Tamana, we lost everything we had.

她们回答，“塔玛娜，我们 失去了我们拥有的一切。

We are not able to work.

我们无法工作。

We are not able to go out without a mahram, a man, family member,

如果没有一位男性家庭成员的陪同， 我们就无法出行，

and we are not able to move freely,

也不能自由行动，

travel to other provinces, to countries outside Afghanistan

前往其他省份或者出国。

without a man."

So it means that Taliban do not count women as humans or equal to men.

这意味着塔利班不把女人 看作人或者与男人平起平坐。

So there should be a man to validate that they exist.

所以得有一位男性 证明它们的存在。

And they say that, "We lost everything we had.

她们再说，“我们失去了 所拥有的一切。

And that's why we are fighting.

这就是我们奋斗的理由。

We are not afraid to die,

我们不怕死，

but it makes us happy

但见到外界的女性，

and encourages us

不管是阿富汗人与否，

when we see women, no matter Afghans, non-Afghans

她们支持着我们，

from outside the country,

这使我们倍感鼓舞和欣慰。

supporting us.

And that's all we need."

这就是我们所需要的。”

And they were thanking me all the time for doing the interviews.

她们一直感谢我做了这些采访。

And they were like, "You listen to us and it's important for us."

她们说道，“你倾听了我们的想法， 这对我们很重要。”

So there is a need to come together and support the woman in Afghanistan,

之所以有必要团结起来 支持阿富汗、伊朗

in Iran, or any part of the world,

或任何其他地方的妇女，

because all we fight for is our basic human rights.

是因为我们在争取最基础的人权。

I think it's really important to support the woman in Afghanistan

我觉得支持阿富汗， 或世界上任何地方

or any other part of the world who are fighting for their basic rights.

为自己的基本权利 而战的妇女至关重要。

It's 2022.

已经 2022 年了。

I know that women, we as women, we are political.

我知道我们，作为女性， 是关注政治的。

Our bodies are political.

我们生来就身处政治之中。

Our opinions, whatever we say, whatever we do is political.

我们的意见，无论是说什么， 做什么，都带有政治含义。

Women get criticized more than men,

女性比男性更容易受到批评，

and no matter in which field.

不论是在哪个领域。

And it's really important for all of us,

对于我们大家来说， 不管在世界哪里

no matter where in the world,

都相当重要的是：

to support those women protesting on the streets in Kabul

支援那些在喀布尔 以及阿富汗其他省份

走向街头抗议的妇女。

and other provinces of Afghanistan.

And one of the ways we can do this,

而我们能做到这点的办法之一，

we can open a conversation about Afghanistan,

便是发起关于阿富汗的讨论，

so it's on the news again.

让它再次受到新闻关注，

So people talk about it

成为人们的话题；

and we don't forget what's happening there.

还有，我们能不忘记 那里正在发生的事。

I know that I was the lucky one who is here now, who is able to work.

我知道我此时在这里， 还能工作，是幸运的。

But I also know that it was painful to leave.

但我也知道离开是痛苦的。

But for them, because they are fighting,

但对他们来说，因为他们在斗争，

they need our support, solidarity.

他们需要我们支持，站在身后。

And we need to put pressure on our governments,

我们还需对我们政府施压，

no matter where in the world,

无论在世界何处，

to change the policies,

让其修订政策，

to put pressure on the Taliban,

向塔利班施加压力，

to change their policies and make a change.

完善政策，做出改变。

KC: I think people can start by watching "In Her Hands."

克雷格：我觉得人们可以 从收看《在她的双手之中》开始。

It really is a beautiful film.

这是一部很不错的影片，

It's incredibly compelling.

非常引人入胜。

And for me I found there were threads of hope in there.

从我的角度，我发现了 其中留存着几丝希望。

So I think watching the film,

我认为观看这部影片，

understanding this incredible strength of the women of Afghanistan,

并了解阿富汗妇女的强大，

will inspire many, many people.

将激励很多很多人。

And hopefully they will step up and show that solidarity

希望他们能挺身而出， 表明自己的支持，

and continue to raise awareness of the issue.

并继续增进周围人对此的认识。

You no doubt will continue to do so.

你无疑会继续这样做。

I know you have more films, I think, that you're hoping to make in the future.

我知道你在未来有 很多影片计划拍摄。

And we're just very, very lucky

我们很荣幸邀请你

to have you, such a wonderful and compelling storyteller,

如此生动地讲述这些经历，

to shine a light on this issue

并聚焦这类问题，

and educate us all so that we can stand in solidarity.

为我们所有人梳理细节 让我们站在她们的背后。

So thank you.

那么谢谢你。

It's been wonderful listening to you today.

今天听你分享太棒了。

Thank you, Tamana.

谢谢你，塔玛娜。

TA: Thank you.

阿亚兹：谢谢你。