John Lewis and Bryan Stevenson: The fight for civil rights and freedom | TED

Transcriber: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Camille Martínez

翻译人员: Caihuan Yan 校对人员: suya f.

（音乐）

（画外音）约翰·刘易斯： 我的朋友们，让我们不要忘记

我们正在参与一场重大的社会革命。

(Music)

我们想要自由， 而且我们现在就想要它。

(Voice-over) John Lewis: My friends, let us not forget

（画外音）约翰·刘易斯： 当你看到一些不正确、

不公平、不公正的事情时，

that we are involved in a serious social revolution.

你必须说些什么， 你必须做些事情。

We want our freedom, and we want it now.

（画外音）约翰·刘易斯：

你是非洲裔美国人也好， 白人也罢，这并不重要，

(Voice-over) JL: When you see something that is not right or fair or just,

我们不仅是一国人民， 更是一个家庭。

（欢呼声）

you have to say something, you have to do something.

（画外音）约翰·刘易斯： 一个有梦想、有远见的人

(Voice-over) JL: It doesn't matter whether you're Black or white,

可以改变一切。

we're one people and one family.

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 当人们谈论您时，

(Cheers)

(Voice-over) JL: One person with a dream, with a vision,

您希望他们说什么？

can change things.

【TED传代项目】

Bryan Stevenson: When people talk about you,

【国会议员约翰·刘易斯 与布莱恩·史蒂文森的对话】

what do you want them to say?

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 能和您在这个房间里交谈，

[TED Legacy Project]

[Congressman John Lewis In conversation with Bryan Stevenson]

使我感到无比荣幸。

我无法言说这个机会 对我意味着什么。

BS: Well, this is such a great honor for me to be in this room with you,

对我们很多人来说， 您代表着十分宝贵的东西，

to have this conversation.

I can't tell you what it means to me to have this opportunity.

首先，我只想先感谢您，

You represent something so precious to so many of us,

感谢您愿意用手臂 拥抱像我这样的人，

让我相信我能够做到一切困难、

and I just wanted to start by thanking you for that,

for your willingness to wrap your arms around people like me

和重要的事情。

首先，我想先请您谈一谈

and to make me think that it's possible to do difficult things,

您在美国非洲裔美国人带 的阿拉巴马州农村

important things.

And I just want to start by asking you to talk a little bit

长大的经历，

以及这段经历如何塑造了 改变您人生和视野的勇气。

about that experience of growing up in rural Alabama

我的意思是，您过去不得不 在家里的农场摘棉花。

in the Black Belt of America

and how that cultivated this spirit that shaped your life and your vision.

约翰·刘易斯： 我小时候经常大惊小怪，

I mean, you used to have to pick cotton on your family's farm.

我会抱怨：

“为什么会这样、会那样？”

而我母亲会说：

JL: When I used to fuss as a young child,

“孩子，这是我们唯一能做的事。”

她说：“我知道这很辛苦， 但我们能做什么呢？

I would complain, "Why this? Why that?"

我们必须谋生。”

And my mother would say, "Boy, it's the only thing we can do."

但我希望

She said, "I know it's hard work, but what are we going to do?

甚至祈祷有一天，

We have to make a living."

人们不必在烈日下如此辛苦地工作。

But I was hoping

and almost praying for that day

她也同样希望世道能够变好，

when people wouldn't have to work so hard in the hot sun.

让我们这样的人

和我的家庭生活的更好。

She was hoping also that things would be better,

我的母亲，她总是很有远见。

much better for us as a people

如果我们能够早起 并努力地捡起多的棉花，

and for my family.

My mother, she was always thinking ahead.

我们就能够得到更多钱。

If we'd get up early and go and pick as much cotton as we could,

因为她知道当棉花上有露水时

就会变得更重。

所以当它们被称重时，

we would get more money,

它们价值会变得更高。

because she knew the cotton would be heavier

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 您的母亲听起来很有策略。

'cause the dew would be on it.

约翰·刘易斯：我亲爱的母亲，

So when it was weighed,

有一天，她在特洛伊 市中心看到了一个

money would be increased.

BS: Your mother sounds really strategic.

JL: My dear mother,

讲了一些关于一个在田纳西州, 纳什维尔的学校的小报纸。

one day, she came across a little newspaper in downtown Troy

这个学校准许非洲裔学生就读。

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 她鼓励了你去申请上学，

that said something about a school in Nashville, Tennessee,

尽管这意味着你会离开家和农场，

that Black students could attend.

你将不能贡献额外的劳动。

BS: She encouraged you to apply for that,

even though that meant you'd be leaving the house, you'd be leaving the farm,

约翰·刘易斯：我很乐意 并已经准备好了去那里，

you would not be contributing that extra labor.

去尝试做我们伙计们 称为“做得更好”的事，

JL: Well, I was prepared and willing to go

去获得教育。

但在开始的时候， 我想参加特洛伊州的学校

to try to do what my folks called "doing better,"

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 您想取消特洛伊州的种族隔离。

to get an education.

约翰·刘易斯：我提交了我 的申请，我的高中成绩单。

But in the beginning, I wanted to attend Troy State.

但我从来没有从 学校方听到一点回应。

所以我向金博士写了一封信。

BS: You wanted to desegregate Troy State.

JL: I submitted my application, my high school transcript.

我并没有告诉我的母亲和父亲，

我的任何姐妹或兄弟， 我所有的老师。

I never heard a word from the school.

So I wrote a letter to Dr. King.

我跟他说我需要他的帮助。

他向我回信了

I didn't tell my mother, my father,

并寄给了我灰狗巴士的来回车票

any of my sisters or brothers, any of my teachers.

同时邀请我去蒙哥马利与他见面。

I told him I needed his help.

我永远不能忘记那一天。

He wrote me back

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 你在抵制前就知道金博士。

and sent me a round trip Greyhound bus ticket

你听过他的讲道

and invited me to come to Montgomery to meet with him.

使徒“【保罗的书信】至美国基督徒。”

And I can never, ever forget it.

BS: You knew about Dr. King even before the boycott.

这是他对所有居住在 蒙哥马利的人做的演讲

You had heard his sermon

在罗莎·帕克斯被捕后的四天。

the Apostle "[Paul's Letter] to American Christians."

在演讲的结尾，他说，

有一天，他们会说起一个故事

It's the speech he gives to all the people in Montgomery

关于一个群体

four days after Rosa Parks has been arrested.

在蒙哥马利，阿拉巴马州.

At the end of the speech, he says,

然后他说，关于为自己的权益 发声的非洲裔美国人，

one day, they're going to tell a story

当他们这么做时，世界就被改变了。

about a group of people

你立刻就对这个采取行动的 呼吁做出了回应。

in Montgomery, Alabama.

And then he says, of Black people who stood up for their rights,

约翰·刘易斯： 这个思想真正地吸引了我。

and when they stood up for their rights, the whole world changed.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：对。

约翰·刘易斯： 它是一种社会福音类的思想。

And you had an immediate response to that call to action.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：对。

约翰·刘易斯： 我想尽我所能让事情变得更好。

JL: That message really appealed to me.

BS: Yeah.

JL: It was sort of a social gospel message.

’因为当你看到不正确， 不公平，不正义的事情时，

BS: Yeah.

你需要说些什么。

JL: I wanted to do what I could to make things better,

你需要做出行动。

这就像有一场火 正在燃烧着你的骨骼，

'cause when you see something that is not right or fair or just,

你不可能沉默。

you have to say something.

You have to do something.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：没错。

It's like a fire burning up in your bones,

约翰·刘易斯：我的母亲可能会告诉我， “男孩，不要让自己陷入麻烦当中。

and you cannot be silenced.

不要陷入麻烦当中。

你可能会受伤，你可能会被杀。”

BS: That's right.

JL: My mother would have said to me, "Boy, don't get in trouble.

金博士，罗莎·帕克斯和 埃德加·丹尼尔·尼克松

Don't get in trouble.

You can get hurt, you can get killed."

还有所有我当时读到的其他人

或是遇到的人，

Dr. King and Rosa Parks and E.D. Nixon

激励了我去陷入 我认为的”好麻烦，“

和必要的麻烦中。

and others that I read about at that time

在这之后，我就一直 陷入各种麻烦中

and later met,

inspired me to get in what I call "good trouble,"

静坐抗议， 自由乘客运动等...

布莱恩·史蒂文森：你去了纳什维尔

necessary trouble.

并开始了学习非暴力形式。

And I've been getting in trouble ever since --

从什么时候开始非暴力形式成为了 你世界观中重要的一部分

the sit-ins, the Freedom Ride ...

BS: You went to Nashville

和你想要在政治行动中 建立的主义呢？

and began the work of learning nonviolence.

约翰·刘易斯：小时候， 我想要成为一个部长。

When did nonviolence become an essential part of your worldview

我觉得金博士 在他演讲中说的东西

and the theology and the activism that you wanted to create?

符合耶稣的教导。

JL: Growing up, I wanted to be a minister.

I felt that what Dr. King was saying in his speeches

所以我轻松的接受了那些理念 --

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的，是的。

was in keeping with the teaching of Jesus.

约翰·刘易斯：... 非暴力形态， 非暴力的哲学和它的纪律。

So I readily accepted this idea --

我们被教育要尊重每个人的

BS: Yeah. Yeah.

JL: ... of nonviolence, the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence.

尊严和价值

和永远不要放弃任何一个人；

We were taught to respect the dignity and the worth

要试着向他们伸出善意的手，

用希望，信任和爱意对待他们。

of every human being

and never give up on anyone;

所以你可能可以打败我， 你也可以逮捕我并把我关进监狱

to try to reach them with kindness,

with hope and faith and love.

但我不会做出暴力的行为。

我会把你当作一个人来尊重你。

So you may beat me, you may arrest me and throw me in jail,

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 我很好奇是什么给了你勇气

but I'm not going to engage in violence.

去忍受一些那样的残忍的行为。

I'm going to respect you as a human being.

因为很多人都会谈论非暴力理念。

BS: And I'm wondering whether that is what gave you the courage

他们会讨论爱的神学。

但当你真正在一个

to endure some of that brutality.

在安尼斯敦,阿拉巴马州 的巴士上时，

Because a lot of people talk about nonviolence.

或是像你一样在蒙哥马利, 阿拉巴马州的巴士上时，

They talk about the theology of love.

被那群人包围，被仇恨包围，

But when you're on a bus

周围都是你知道会 对你做出暴行的人时，

in Anniston, Alabama,

or in Montgomery, Alabama, as you've been,

surrounded by that mob and surrounded by that hate,

这是一种完全不同的情况。

约翰·刘易斯：是的，我接受了这点。

surrounded by people who you know are prepared to do violent things,

金博士教会了我们去爱。

这是和我的基督教信仰一致的

it's a different dynamic.

要爱所有人

JL: Yeah. I accepted that.

并永远不要去恨他人，

Dr. King taught us to love.

因为恨是一种 承受起来太沉重的包袱。

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 但这让你看起来也很有谋略。

It's in keeping with my Christian faith

to love everybody

你们都想了很多关于 什么时候去哪里之类的事。

and never hate,

because the hate was too heavy a burden to bear.

并不是只是，“哦，这里有一个机会， 我们现在就去做这件事吧。

BS: But it seems like you were strategic, too.

约翰·刘易斯：我们并没有在某一天 突然跳起来然后决定我们要去塞尔玛市。

You all thought a lot about when and where to go someplace.

It wasn't just, "Oh, here's an opportunity here, let's just do it.

我们探寻了不同的地方。

当哪里有可以领导的机会

JL: We just didn't jump up one day and decide that we would go to Selma.

去创造一个有影响力的组织时，

We checked places out.

不论你是否有学生，

人们都准备好了外出， 工作并组织这类活动。

Wherever there was a possibility of leadership,

of creating a viral organization,

那就是我们做的事。

我们做了我们 能够做到的所有事情

whether you had students,

people who were prepared to get out and work and organize.

来引起人们的注意

And that's what we did.

到一个对人类不好的形势来

We did everything that we could

之后我们就会组织人们。

to bring attention

当时我们有宗教领袖

to a situation that was not good for people

老师，律师和其他在那些 社区和街道的人们。

and then we could organize people.

There were religious leaders

他们会参加一个训练

teachers and lawyers and others in these communities and neighborhoods.

来接受非暴力形态，

There would come a time through the training

作为他们的人生哲学，

作为他们生活的方式，

and accepting nonviolence,

然后你就真正地做好了准备。

the philosophy as a way of living,

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 那是一些非常严格的训练

as a way of life,

让人们准备好面对 那些非常有压力的情况

that you become prepared.

并维持对非暴力的坚持，

BS: It was a lot of rigorous training

而且我并不认为人们会认识到

to be prepared to be in those very stressful situations

这些为了准备人们 做出的努力的重要性。

and maintain that commitment to nonviolence,

约翰·刘易斯: 这是一件我们坚守的事，

and I don't think people appreciate

一个机会去体验角色扮演，

how much work went into preparing people for that.

社会戏剧，

JL: Well, it was something that we became committed to,

假装你在打人

a chance to go through role playing,

或是撞倒某人，

social drama,

有一个人正在向你脸上吐烟圈

pretending that you were beating someone

并对你用各种侮辱性的称呼，

训练人们如何遵守纪律

or knocking someone down,

someone's blowing smoke in your face

永不言弃。

and calling you all types of names,

在 1961 年 5 月 的自由乘车运动中，

training people how to be disciplined

我当时21岁。

第一次离开华盛顿特区

and not giving up.

On the Freedom Rides in May of 1961,

去参加自由乘车运动 --

我以为我们将要死去。

when I was 21 years old,

事实上，

leaving Washington, DC, for the first time

我想我看到了死亡，

但我相信全能的上帝让我留在人间 是为了让我完成一个特殊的使命。

to go on the Freedom Ride --

I thought we were going to die.

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 这是一个有力的、有力的见证，

As a matter of fact,

I thought I saw death,

这个你的照片， 照片上你的头被血染红了，

but I believe God Almighty kept me here for a reason.

这种意愿去再次回到一个巴士上。

BS: It's a powerful, powerful testimony,

the picture of you, and your head is bloodied,

他们在一些静坐抗议后参访了你，

this willingness to get back on a bus to do it again.

对我来说很值得探究的 是你谈论此事的态度

你非常一针见血。

你说，我们并不只是为了纳什维尔 的非洲裔美国人而做这件事。

And they interviewed you after some of the sit-ins,

and what was interesting to me about the way you talked about it

我们是为了所有人，

因为尽管他们可能还没有意识到， 但他们所做的事情是错的，

is you were very clear.

You said, we're not just trying to do this for the Black people in Nashville.

如果我不这么做的话，

我就不是一个我自称是的基督教徒，

We're trying to do this for everybody,

because they may not realize it yet, but what they're doing is wrong,

我就不是一个我自称是的好人

如果我不帮助他们停止 正在做的这件错误的事情。

and I wouldn't be the Christian that I claim to be,

我认为人们想要救赎。

I wouldn't be the good person that I claimed to be,

if I didn't try to help them

在我们的信仰传统中，

我们理解救赎的力量。

get past this wrong thing they're doing.

我们对此讲道，

我们理解人们需要忏悔，

I think people want redemption.

需要悔改。

但作为一个整体的社会， 我们还没有拥抱这些概念

Our faith tradition,

we understand the power of redemption.

在这个国家。

We preach about it,

我们还没有承认 由奴役制带来的遗留问题

and we understand that there has to be confession,

there has to be repentance.

和充满着私刑和种族隔离的历史。

But collectively, as a society, we haven't really embraced that

人们想要跳过道歉的部分，

in this country.

We haven't really wanted to acknowledge the legacy of slavery

你仍然可以看到邦联旗 和那些阻力的象征。

and the history of lynching and segregation.

我意识到现在急迫的需要

People want to skip over the apology part,

人们鼓起勇气去说，

and you still see these Confederate flags and these symbols of resistance.

”你知道，这是错的。 所以我们得抵制它。“

It seems to me part of what is so urgent right now

但你也看到了人们得到救赎的方式，

is that we get people to have the courage to say,

"You know, this was wrong, and we have to reject that."

在我看来是非凡的。

约翰·刘易斯：几年前，

But you have seen that redemption in ways that I think has been

一个三K党的成员

他曾经打过我和我的同桌，

so extraordinary.

JL: A few short years ago,

在一个

one of the members of the Klan

叫做石山，南卡罗来纳州的小镇上，

who beat me and beat my seatmate,

把我们留在血泊之中。。。

in a little town

多年之后，

called Rock Hill, South Carolina,

3K党的成员之一

left us lying in a pool of blood ...

和他的儿子

来到了我在华盛顿的办公室，

Many years later,

one member of the Klan

然后他说，“我以前是3K党的一员。

and his son

我是以前打过你并留你 躺在血泊之中人其他之一。

came to my office in Washington,

我想要道歉。”

and he said, "I've been a member of the Klan.

他的儿子开始哭泣， 然后他也哭了起来。

I'm one of the people that beat you and left you bloody.

他带着他的儿子过来拥抱我。

I want to apologize."

His son started crying, then he started crying.

我回抱了他，

我还在三次其他的时候 见到过这位绅士。

He came up with his son to hug me.

这就是一种爱和原谅的力量，

I hugged them back,

and I saw this gentleman three other times.

让他承认并说，“我已经革心易行” 然后继续向前走。

It's the power of the way of love, of forgiveness,

布莱恩·史蒂文森：在我看来确实 如此如果我们可以向人们展示

在悔改的另一端，

to admit it and say, "I'm changed," and move on.

在忏悔的另一端，在承认的另一端，

BS: It does seem to me that if we can show people

存在着一种美好的东西，

that on the other side of repentance,

就像你从那位3K党成员身上 体会到的一样，

接着也许他们能够 从中找到他们的勇气

on the other side of confession, on the other side of acknowledgment,

站起来并谈论那些事情的错误性。

there's something beautiful,

like what you experienced with that Klan member,

我一直以来也很好奇

您会如何谈论您从罗莎·帕克斯

then maybe they'll find their courage

to stand up and talk about the wrongfulness of these things.

和金博士身上所学到的一切，

And I've been curious

how you would talk about what you learned

像是他们教导了您什么， 他们留给了您什么，

以至于后来您能完成 您后来所做的壮举。

from your time with Rosa Parks and Dr. King,

约翰·刘易斯：这些人， 他们身上有一种特殊的东西，

让我感到直触心灵的感动。

what they taught you, what they left you with

that has allowed you to do the work you've done.

如果没有埃德加·丹尼尔·尼克松

JL: There's something about these individuals,

或是罗莎·帕克斯，

they touch me, they reach me.

小马丁·路德·金，

拉尔夫·阿伯内西牧师

If it hadn't been for E.D. Nixon

和许多其他的人，

or Rosa Parks,

我不知道我会经历什么。

Martin Luther King, Jr,

Reverend Ralph Abernathy

我可能会感到迷茫并丢失自我。

and so many others,

但小马丁·路德·金，

I don't know what would have happened to me.

I could have been lost.

给了我一张灰狗巴士票双程票

But for Martin Luther King, Jr, to ...

并邀请了我去 蒙哥马利与他见面，

带我去了我的 第一个浸信会教堂--

这是完全让人难以想象的，

sent me a round trip Greyhound bus ticket

难以置信

and invited me to come to Montgomery to meet with him,

一个穷困，光脚的男孩

my first Baptist church --

可以梦想他有一天，

it's impossible,

impossible

会与小马丁·路德·金见面。

for a poor, barefooted boy

直到现在，我还对 他的话记忆犹新，

to dream that one day,

他说，”你是那个来自 特洛伊的男孩吗？

he would meet Martin Luther King, Jr.

你是约翰·刘易斯吗？“

I remember so well when he said,

然后我说，

"Are you the boy from Troy?

”金博士，是的，我是 约翰·罗伯特·刘易斯。“

Are you John Lewis?"

自从这以后，他就开始称呼我 为”来自特洛伊的男孩。“

And I said,

”那个来自特洛伊 的男孩最近怎么样了？“

"Dr. King, I am John Robert Lewis."

有时候，他会说一些 例如这类的事，

And he called me "the boy from Troy."

”约翰，你仍然在传道吗？“

"How is the boy from Troy doing?"

我就会回应说，

”是的，金博士，在我洗澡的时候。 因为这样没人会听到我。“

And sometimes, he would say things like,

布莱恩·史蒂文森：（笑声）

"John, do you still preach?"

约翰·刘易斯： 接着他也会笑起来。

And I would say,

我认为在他被暗杀时，

"Yes, Dr. King, when I'm taking a shower so no one can hear me."

当他离我们而去时，

BS: (Laughs)

有一种东西在我们 所有人心中都消失了。

JL: And he would laugh.

I think when he was assassinated,

如果他还活着-- 他当时还是一个非常年轻的人--

when he died,

something died in all of us.

也许我们的国家或变得更好

If he had lived -- he was a very young man --

这个世界的社会 也会比现在更好。

布莱恩·史蒂文森：我们早些时候 在讨论那些重要的时刻，

maybe our country would be much better

1964，民权法案的通过，

and the world community would be better off.

投票权法在1985年的通过，

BS: We were talking earlier about those critical moments,

这样看来我们似乎把重心 放在了结束对人权的侵害上

1964, the passage of the Civil Rights Act,

而不是对长时间以来侵害的补救

the Voting Rights Act in 1965,

and it seems like our focus was on ending the violations of rights

或是思考修复所有 已经实施过的伤害的办法

今天，我在想

and less on remedying this long history of violations

除了不在剥夺 非洲裔美国人的投票权以外，

and what it would take to repair all the damage that has been done.

也许这些州

And today I'm thinking,

应该做出一些补救 和修复的措施。

in addition to no longer denying Black people the right to vote,

他们应该说，”你知道吗，

maybe these states

我们会自动登记 所有非洲裔美国人投票。“

should have done something reparational, should have done something remedial.

约翰·刘易斯：投票是非暴力形式 最有效的工具或是方式

They should have said, "You know what,

当我们处在应该民主制的社会里，

we're going to automatically register every Black person to vote."

所以我们必须将它变得便捷， 让人们可以轻松的使用它。

JL: The vote is the most powerful nonviolent instrument or tool

那些自愿牺牲自己的 生命来改变它的人--

that we have in a democratic society,

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的。

约翰·刘易斯 ：。。。那些为此 被殴打和承受苦难的人们

and we must make it easy and simple for people to use it.

所以我们有权力知道我们 食用的食物中所含的东西--

The people who gave their very lives --

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的。

BS: Yes.

JL: ... people who took the beatings and suffered

约翰·刘易斯：什么在我们饮用 的水中，或是在我们呼吸的空气中

so we have a right to know what is in the food that we eat --

布莱恩·史蒂文森：您曾是在1963年 向华盛顿进军集会的最年轻的演讲者，

BS: Yes.

JL: ... what is in the water we drink or the air we breathe.

您当时表现得非常有说服力

BS: You were the youngest speaker at the March on Washington in 1963,

并且非常激动人心。

约翰·刘易斯：我当时 与学生非暴力协调委员会

and you were very eloquent

的一些工作人员 一起合作来修改这份稿子，

and you were very compelling.

我决心要

JL: I had worked on the speech with some of the staffers

启发更多的年轻人，

of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee,

另一代人。

but I was determined

所以当我向外看并看到了人海,

to inspire young people,

我告诉自己，”这就是时机。

another generation.

我需要站出来，“

我告诉你，

And when I looked out and saw that sea of humanity,

一切都顺利地进行了 因为所有的人都用尽全力地努力着

I said to myself, "This is it.

I must go forward."

来在那天的商城里获得上帝的怜悯。

I tell you,

it came together and we worked, all of us, very hard

但一切都非常顺利，

肯尼迪总统

on getting the Lord's cry out on the Mall that day.

邀请我们在游行后前往白宫，

并站在椭圆形办公室门前问候我们

But it went so well,

the president, President Kennedy,

像一个喜气洋洋的自豪父亲，

invited us down to the White House after the march was over,

他不停地对每一个人说， “你做得很好。你做得很好。”

and he stood in the door of the Oval Office greeting us

当他走到金博士面前时， 他说，”你做到了

and beaming like a proud father,

and he kept saying to each one of us, "You did a good job. You did a good job."

因为你有着一个梦想。“

那次是我最后一次见到肯尼迪总统。

And when he got to Dr. King, he said, "You did a good job,

布莱恩·史蒂文森：哇。

约翰·刘易斯：我非常倾佩他。

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的。

约翰·刘易斯：这个男人身上 有着一种鼓舞人心的东西。

and you had a dream."

That was my last time seeing President Kennedy.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的。是的。

BS: Wow.

JL: I admired him.

您谈论过他和罗伯特·肯尼迪 是您参与政治的重要影响。

BS: Yeah.

JL: There was something about the man that was so inspiring.

我知道你曾在70年代 第一次参加竞选，

BS: Yeah. Yeah.

然后在80年代时再次参加竞选。

You talked about how he and Robert Kennedy were an influence to get into politics.

我有些好奇--是什么激励着 您做出这样的转变？

I know you first ran in the '70s,

约翰·刘易斯：我看到在政治中 你也可以成为一股向善的力量。

and then you ran again in the '80s.

I'm curious -- what motivated you to make that shift?

所以我被激励着竞选公职，

JL: I saw in politics that you could be a force for good.

大家都开始鼓励我， ”你应该竞选一个职位。“

所以我做出了一个决定。

So I was motivated to run for office,

我不认为我改变了什么。

我觉得我还是一个 与从前一样的，理智的人。

and people started encouraging me, "You should run for something."

布莱恩·史蒂文森：（笑声）

我会说我想说的话

And I made a decision.

并且，大部分时候， 我做我想做的事，

I don't think I changed that much.

I think I'm the same sane person.

我认为你必须 成为一股向善的力量--

BS: (Laughs)

I said what I want to say

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是这样没错。

and, for the most part, I do what I want to do.

约翰·刘易斯：。。。 去启发人们，去鼓励人们。

布莱恩·史蒂文森：在我看到你组织了 反对枪支暴力的抗议时我感到十分感动，

I think you have to be a force for good --

BS: Yeah. Yeah.

JL: ... to inspire people, to encourage people.

我想知道您关于我们 应该如何教导人们

BS: I was so moved when you organized the protests around gun violence,

充满希望意味着什么 是怎么想的。

您是如何对您在国会的同事

and I'm wondering how you think we should be teaching people

和另一代年轻领袖 沟通这一点的？

what it means to be hopeful.

约翰·刘易斯：你可能会蹲下， 你可能会被击倒，

How do you think about communicating that

但你会重新站起来。

to both your colleagues in the Congress and another generation of leaders?

你继续向前走， 你继续为你的信念抗争。

这就是民权运动的一部分，

JL: You may get down, you may get knocked down,

新的一天，一个更好的明天总会到来，

but you get up.

但我们需要为那一天 的到来付出自己的力量。

You keep moving, you keep pressing on.

That was part of the civil rights movement,

我们不能保持沉默，

不能毫不作为。

a new day, a better day was gonna come,

我们需要参与进去

but we had to help that day come.

在无路可走的情况下 开辟出一条新的道路。

We couldn't be quiet,

couldn't be silent.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：您认为 在我们放弃的一些策略中

We have to be engaged

有什么我们应该重新拾起

in creating a way out of no way.

来面对今日我们 所看到的问题的吗？

BS: Do you think there are strategies that we've abandoned

约翰·刘易斯：我认为有很多策略

that we need to pick back up

和技巧

to confront the issues that we're looking at today?

我们在某方面来说丢弃了

JL: I think there's so many tactics

但应该往回看

and techniques

并拾起那些策略和技巧

that we've sort of abandoned

使用的。

我们应该教导人们，

that we need to go back

特别是年轻人。

and pick up these techniques and tactics

我们应该与小学生，中学生

and use them.

We need to teach people,

和大学生交流

especially our young people.

来学习拥抱非暴力形式的

We talk to grade school students and high school students

哲学和纪律，

and college students

如何参与非暴力直接行动。

to learn to embrace the philosophy

and the discipline of nonviolence,

我们现在比 任何时候都更需要它。

how to engage in nonviolent direct action.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：我认为您 为我们的政治文化中带来了

活动主义的精神， 战略抗议的精神，

We need it now more than ever before.

BS: I think you've brought into our political culture

甚至愿意偶尔会造成干扰。

this spirit of activism, this spirit of strategic protest,

你没有参加过一些总统的就职典礼

当你认为这些选举在 合法性上有着不妥，

a willingness to even occasionally be disruptive.

我现在也能看到 新一代的政治领袖

You haven't attended all of the inaugurations of presidents

开始接受这个 理念的一些方面，

when you've felt like there were issues around the legitimacy of those elections,

所以我想知道您是否认为

and I see a new generation of politicians

您做过的那种模范效应

that seem to embrace some aspects of that,

and I'm wondering whether you think

会成为您在您的 政治生涯中觉得重要的

that the kind of modeling you've done

一部分。

约翰·刘易斯：我对新一代

is going to be part of your legacy that's important to you

进入民选职位的年轻男女

as a politician.

感到印象深刻。

JL: I've been so impressed

这并不单单指国家层面的人员 也包括地方层面的干部。

with this new breed of young men and young women

我认为我们，现在比以往更加

that are coming into elected positions.

需要有良知的男女

It's not just at the national level but also at the local level.

来作为法官，

And I think we, now more than ever before,

特别是在联邦层面中，

need men and women of conscience

但也需要这样的人才 在州和地方层面，

来呼吁。“我们需要修复。

as judges,

我们需要弥补以前的错误。“

especially on the federal level,

布莱恩·史蒂文森：是的。

约翰·刘易斯：人们并没有 无限的时间来弥补以往的错误

but also at the state and local level,

所以我们必须 开始行动，从现在开始。

to say, "We've got to mend.

布莱恩·史蒂文森：您已经成为了 一位给世界带来无比深刻影响的人物。

We've got to make up."

BS: Yeah.

JL: And people don't have 100 years to make up.

当有人在之后的50年， 或是100年谈论到您，

We need to do it and do it now.

BS: You've become somebody who has had such an impact on the world.

您希望他们说些什么？

您希望自己如何被铭记， 怎样被提到呢？

When people talk about you 50 years from now, 100 years from now,

约翰·刘易斯：我希望--我并不认为 关于这件事我能决定的了多少，

what do you want them to say?

但应该是：

他尝试了创建一个更好的社会，

How you want to be thought of, how you want to be talked about?

JL: My hope -- I don't think I would have much to say about it,

一个更好的世界，

帮助人们得到解放与自由，

but it would be:

拯救了一些人

he tried to create a better society,

并将人们转变到了 不同且更好的对人性的认识。

a better world,

helping to liberate and free people,

helping to save people

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 我曾遇到过与您共事过的人。

and move people to a different and better sense of humanity.

这里面存在着无数 并没有被广泛熟知的名字，

但我总是能常常遇到他们， 因为我生活在阿拉巴马州。

BS: I have met people who worked with you.

我总是谈论起这样一位 我在教堂遇见的男人。

There are so many whose names have never really been known,

我正在做一个讲座， 他坐在一个轮椅上

but I encounter them every now and then, because I get to live in Alabama.

待在人群的后方，

在我做讲座的所有时间 他一直在凝视着我，

And I talk about a man I met who was in a church.

并且在他的脸上有着一种 严肃的，甚至是生气的神情。

I was giving a talk, and he was in the back.

当我演讲完时， 人们向我走过来，

He was in a wheelchair,

他们都非常的友善且妥当，

and he was staring at me the whole time I was giving this talk,

但那位年长的，坐在轮椅上的 非洲裔男子只是一直地凝视着我。

and he had this stern, almost angry look on his face.

然后他终于将自己推到了前方，

And when I finished my talk, people came up.

并来到我前面，他说， ”你知道自己正在做什么吗？“

They were very nice and appropriate,

but that older Black man in a wheelchair just kept staring.

我当时只是站在那儿。

他又再一次问我， ”你知道自己正在做什么吗？“

And then he finally wheels himself to the front,

我咕哝了一句什么。 我甚至不记得我说了什么。

and when he came up to me, he said, "Do you know what you were doing?"

他最后一次问了我， ”你知道自己正在做什么吗？

And I just stood there.

And then he asked me again, "Do you know what you're doing?"

因为我要告诉你，你在做什么。“

And I mumbled something. I don't even remember what I said.

他说，”你正在敲响正义之鼓。

你不停地敲响正义之鼓。“

And he asked me one last time, "Do you know what you're doing?

我感到十分感动。

我也松了一口气，

Because I'm going to tell you what you're doing."

因为我实在不知道 当时会发生些什么。

He said, "You're beating the drum for justice.

但他说，”过来，过来，过来。“

You keep beating the drum for justice."

并拉住了我的夹克， 然后将我往他那边拉近，

And I was so moved.

I was also relieved,

他转动了他的头，并说，

because I just didn't know what was about to happen.

”你看到我右耳后的那块疤痕了吗？

But then he said, "Come here, come here, come here."

And he pulled me by my jacket, and he pulled me down close to him,

我是在1963年的时候， 在格林县 ，阿拉巴马州，

与科迪·廷德尔·维维安 共事时得到它的。

and he turned his head, and he said,

约翰·刘易斯：是啊，格林县。

"You see this scar I have right here behind my right ear?

布莱恩·史蒂文森：然后他又 将他的头转动了一下。

他说，“你看到这里 的这个伤口了吗？

I got that scar in Greene County, Alabama, in 1963,

我是在费拉德尔菲亚， 密西西比州

working with C.T. Vivian."

尝试着登记人投票时获得的。“

JL: Yeah, Greene County.

接着他说，”你看到这个挫伤了吗？ 那是我的狗斑.

BS: Then he turned his head.

He said, "You see this cut down here?

我是在1965年时，在伯明翰， 阿拉巴马州，在儿童十字军时得到的。“

I got that in Philadelphia, Mississippi

trying to register people to vote."

最后他说，”人们看到我， 就会想我是一个

And then he said, "You see this bruise? That's my dog spot.

有着割伤、瘀伤和疤痕的老人， 但我要告诉你。

I got that in Birmingham, Alabama, in 1965 during the Children's Crusade."

这些并不是我的割伤。

And then he said, "People look at me, they think I'm some old man

不是我的瘀伤。 也不是我的疤痕。“

covered with cuts and bruises and scars, but I'm going to tell you something.

他说，”这些都 是我的荣誉勋章.”

我现在正这里坐在你旁边，

These are not my cuts.

我还是能看到那些伤痕，

These are not my bruises. These are not my scars."

我知道那些事瘀伤，

He said, "These are my medals of honor."

我知道我也有着许多割伤，

And I am sitting here sitting next to you,

但你还是在谈论爱，救赎以及正义

and I still see the scars,

and I know that there are the bruises,

并启发着我这样的人。

and I know that there are the cuts,

and yet you are still talking about love and redemption and justice

我只是想要你知道， 我不认为存在着一个美国人

and inspiring people like me.

更你相比起来，

更加有荣耀，

And I just want you to know, I don't think there's an American living

更加能够代表 这个国家的美好品质，

和这个国家的希望，

我也不能言表 我是多么激动和荣幸

that is more honored,

more representative of the great values of this nation,

of the hope of this nation,

than you,

能够有这次机会 和这次分享的机会，

and I just cannot tell you how thrilled and privileged I am

我想让你知道

我会继续斗争。

我们的很多人也会继续斗争，

你让我们相信 在正义来临之前，我们不能待懈。

to have this opportunity and to have this opportunity to share,

and I want you to know

I am going to keep fighting.

我希望能够为此向你致谢。

A lot of us are going to keep fighting,

约翰·刘易斯：祝你一切都好。

布莱恩·史蒂文森：绝对的， 我的朋友。绝对的。祝福您。

and you have caused us to believe that we cannot rest until justice comes.

约翰·刘易斯：好的， 祝福你，兄弟。

布莱恩·史蒂文森： 谢谢，谢谢您。

And I want you to thank you for that.

JL: Wish you well.

【众议员 约翰·刘易斯 二月 21，1940- 七月 17，2020】

BS: Absolutely, my friend. Absolutely. Bless you.

JL: OK. Bless you, brother.

【安息】

BS: Thank you. Thank you.

[Congressman John Lewis February 21, 1940 - July 17, 2020]

[Rest in Peace]